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Author Topic: Differences in Orthodox and Catholic Approaches to the Christian Life  (Read 7487 times) Average Rating: 0
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lubeltri
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« on: November 13, 2008, 05:22:58 PM »

This topic has been moved from the Convert Issues forum.  Pravoslavbob

One thing about the Roman Catholic Church is that they are good at boiling things down. However this often seems to end up in rather mechanical recipes. "If you read the bible for thirty minutes, you receive one plenary indulgence"  etc.

This may have been useful in the Dark Ages when people needed simple formulations to get them going. Even though the RCC fancies themselves as more suitable to the modern age than we Orthodox are ( they keep coming up with new innovative idea's). Our mystical traditions and bent may be a bit harder for people to grasp at first.

The good news is that you really don't need to "understand" mystical formulations and practices, you only need to do them. First you do, then you understand. Orthodoxy is transfomrative. With the RCC legalistic/mechanical approach, you need to understand how things "work".     

Many EO never fail to catch my breath with their very malformed and caricatured understandings of real Catholic spirituality and practice.
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« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2008, 05:55:51 PM »

One thing about the Roman Catholic Church is that they are good at boiling things down. However this often seems to end up in rather mechanical recipes. "If you read the bible for thirty minutes, you receive one plenary indulgence"  etc.

This may have been useful in the Dark Ages when people needed simple formulations to get them going. Even though the RCC fancies themselves as more suitable to the modern age than we Orthodox are ( they keep coming up with new innovative idea's). Our mystical traditions and bent may be a bit harder for people to grasp at first.

The good news is that you really don't need to "understand" mystical formulations and practices, you only need to do them. First you do, then you understand. Orthodoxy is transfomrative. With the RCC legalistic/mechanical approach, you need to understand how things "work".     

Many EO never fail to catch my breath with their very malformed and caricatured understandings of real Catholic spirituality and practice.
People often misrepresent the faiths of others in order to defent their own. As we alll know, this is called a "stawman arguement" and I think that if we are all honest with ourselves, we will realize that we have all done it. The best thing that we can do is point out misconceptions as you have here (bravo) and hope that when we do, others are willing to listen.
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« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2008, 07:02:46 PM »


Many EO never fail to catch my breath with their very malformed and caricatured understandings of real Catholic spirituality and practice.

While you certainly may have a point, and I hope I understand it, may I kindly point that the issue she raised is fundamentally theological and fundamentally different between East and West.

One of the errors of Blessed Augustine was conclusion that man can grow closer to God through his reason, his intellect. Since not all of us have the same ability of learning, it would follow that those more intelligent / educated can come closer to God compared to those less intelligent / educated.

Therefore, you ended with Doctors of the Church, something we don't have.

Our position is expressed by St. Maximos the Confessor - On Knowledge. Essentially, knowledge of God cannot grow through study, but through prayer. Prayer is the single activity that brings us closer to God. Therefore, it follows that those more intelligent / educated have no advantage compared to those less intelligent / educated.

But I agree with you, there is no need to point to differences she would, hopefully, feel by her own in her own time.
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« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2008, 08:13:03 PM »


One of the errors of Blessed Augustine was conclusion that man can grow closer to God through his reason, his intellect. Since not all of us have the same ability of learning, it would follow that those more intelligent / educated can come closer to God compared to those less intelligent / educated.

But of course you can, if such reason is not divorced from the practice of faith. St. Anselm called theology "faith seeking understanding."

I would also point out that intellectual activities are just one way of growing closer to God. There are many other ways---which is emphasized in a person's life depends on the gifts he is given. Look at the Franciscans and Dominicans---both mendicant orders, both formed around the same time, but with VERY different charisms.

Some of the greatest saints in the Church knew little of formal theology---St. Therese of Lisieux, one of the great mystics known for her "Little Way" approach to theosis, St. Catherine of Siena, another---both Doctors of the Church.

Then there are other Doctors who had a great theological education but who are most recognized for their mystical and spiritual works---think of St. John of the Cross and his Dark Night of the Soul and The Spiritual Canticle or St. Francis de Sales and his Introduction to the Devout Life.

Even St. Thomas Aquinas, for all his cerebral egghead reputation in the East, was a mystic whose hymns are still sung today by Catholics the world over before the Blessed Sacrament. He wrote the liturgy for the Feast of Corpus Christi, celebrated by your Western-Rite Orthodox brethren.

If you want modern examples, consider St. Josemaria Escriva, founder of Opus Dei, and his classic of lay spirituality, The Way.





Our position is expressed by St. Maximos the Confessor - On Knowledge. Essentially, knowledge of God cannot grow through study, but through prayer. Prayer is the single activity that brings us closer to God. Therefore, it follows that those more intelligent / educated have no advantage compared to those less intelligent / educated.

We would agree but with the understanding that study, properly approached, is a form of prayer.

BTW, Pope St. Martin I, who was arrested together with St. Maximos for condemning Monotheletism and exonerated with him at the Third Council of Constantinople, had his feast day yesterday.
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« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2008, 03:57:57 PM »

Many EO never fail to catch my breath with their very malformed and caricatured understandings of real Catholic spirituality and practice.

It's okay to say the word "Orthodox", you know.  We know that you don't regard the Orthodox Church as being truly Orthodox.  In the same way, we don't regard the Roman Church as being truly Catholic.  But for the sake of courtesy, we refer to you in this way, because this is what you like to be called.  Maybe you could consider doing the same thing for us.  (I am standing by to receive your reply wherein you are taken aback and indignantly and solemnly affirm that the only reason why you use the acronym "EO" in almost every single post to refer to the Orthodox is because it is a convenient short form.  Wink)

If you want modern examples, consider St. Josemaria Escriva, founder of Opus Dei, and his classic of lay spirituality, The Way.

Good one.   Wink  Yes, if I were a proponent of Roman Catholicsim, I would be sure to draw attention to an organisation that is in no way considered extreme or controversial by anyone, an organisation simply beyond reproach.  That way, my argument would appear to be that much more balanced and well-considered.  Wink
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« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2008, 06:39:59 PM »

This topic has been moved from the Convert Issues forum.  Pravoslavbob

One thing about the Roman Catholic Church is that they are good at boiling things down. However this often seems to end up in rather mechanical recipes. "If you read the bible for thirty minutes, you receive one plenary indulgence"  etc.

This may have been useful in the Dark Ages when people needed simple formulations to get them going. Even though the RCC fancies themselves as more suitable to the modern age than we Orthodox are ( they keep coming up with new innovative idea's). Our mystical traditions and bent may be a bit harder for people to grasp at first.

The good news is that you really don't need to "understand" mystical formulations and practices, you only need to do them. First you do, then you understand. Orthodoxy is transfomrative. With the RCC legalistic/mechanical approach, you need to understand how things "work".     

Many EO never fail to catch my breath with their very malformed and caricatured understandings of real Catholic spirituality and practice.


Do you revice one plenary indulgence for every half hour that you read scripture? I am certain I heard this on EWTN ( Which I watch a lot). I only use this as an example of  an overly  mechanical approach. If I am wrong and no such practice really exists, then I certainly apologize.

I think the metaphor that depicts the ethos of RCC like a "court of law" is well established. You do this and get that. Reason is applied to Mysteries. Contracts struck. To me it smacks of a sort of recipe-ism. But maybe that is just me.
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« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2008, 01:14:21 PM »

Luberti is raising valid points and everyone is concerned with things like the names of Churches and who's feelings are being hurt to actually address his points. Was not the mind create by God? Did not God create everything about us as a means to recieve him? Does this not also include the mind? Is the mind just useless in our spiritual lives? I would think not when Christ commanded that we are to love God with all our minds.
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« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2008, 02:34:25 PM »

.... I would think not when Christ commanded that we are to love God with all our minds.

Along with all our hearts and all our souls.  Loving Christ is not a mental exercise.
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« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2008, 02:43:42 PM »

.... I would think not when Christ commanded that we are to love God with all our minds.

Along with all our hearts and all our souls.  Loving Christ is not a mental exercise.
Well, as Papist said, we are called to love God with all our minds (as well as the other parts), which does make love of God a mental exercise to some degree.  However, I agree with you that loving God is not merely a mental exercise.
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« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2008, 02:46:26 PM »

Many EO online EO never fail to catch my breath with their very malformed and caricatured understandings of real Catholic spirituality and practice.

Fixed.
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« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2008, 05:30:04 PM »


...Essentially, knowledge of God cannot grow through study, but through prayer. ...

We would agree but with the understanding that study, properly approached, is a form of prayer.

We won't agree about anything, except that we are in a deep disagreement. The difference, although may seem subtle, is actually fundamental, and lies in the root of the differences between Orthodox and West.
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« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2008, 05:36:04 PM »

.... I would think not when Christ commanded that we are to love God with all our minds.

Along with all our hearts and all our souls.  Loving Christ is not a mental exercise.
It is indeed a mental exercise, just as it is an exercize of the heart and of the the body. It is an exercise of our entire being.
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« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2008, 05:43:31 PM »

.... I would think not when Christ commanded that we are to love God with all our minds.

Along with all our hearts and all our souls.  Loving Christ is not a mental exercise.
Well, as Papist said, we are called to love God with all our minds (as well as the other parts), which does make love of God a mental exercise to some degree.  However, I agree with you that loving God is not merely a mental exercise.

And we do not at all disagree! The problem here are some EO who make such rude caricatures of Catholic faith and spirituality. My God, the descriptions on here do not at all describe my interior life (or that of other serious Catholics I know) or the faith as propounded by the Church.

The saints and works I mentioned above are just some illustrating examples.

BTW, Pravoslav, before you go Dan Brown and make a crack at St. Josemaria and Opus Dei, I suggest you actually read The Way and actually meet Opus Dei members. Go on a weekend retreat with them (I just did this past weekend, in fact).
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« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2008, 05:44:54 PM »

Luberti is raising valid points
You think so? Let me have a look:
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« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2008, 05:49:13 PM »

Nope. I'd have to disagree with you there.
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« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2008, 06:44:22 PM »

Nope. I'd have to disagree with you there.
And yet, you would be wrong. Sorry buddy. It happens.
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« Reply #16 on: November 17, 2008, 06:48:15 PM »

And we do not at all disagree! The problem here are some EO who make such rude caricatures of Catholic faith and spirituality.

It is a shame when people go off with half-informed (or less) statements about either of our churches; even though I disagree with many RCC positions, I still do not think that people should be spouting lies or half-truths.

My God, the descriptions on here do not at all describe my interior life (or that of other serious Catholics I know) or the faith as propounded by the Church.

You mean "Roman Church," or "Roman Catholic Church."  Remember - It's an Orthodox board, with a great majority of the members being Orthodox, so simple phrases like "the Church" automatically mean "the Orthodox Church."
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« Reply #17 on: November 17, 2008, 06:51:11 PM »



You mean "Roman Church," or "Roman Catholic Church."  Remember - It's an Orthodox board, with a great majority of the members being Orthodox, so simple phrases like "the Church" automatically mean "the Orthodox Church."
I can't speak for Luberti, but if I happen to refer to the Catholic Church as "The Church" here on this board, I would not be doing so to offend the Orthodox. Because I do believe that the Catholic Church is "The Church", I refer to it such out of habbit. It probably wouldn't even be a conscience thing.
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« Reply #18 on: November 17, 2008, 06:52:03 PM »

BTW, I just realize that I am a "High Elder". YAY!!!
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« Reply #19 on: November 17, 2008, 07:01:42 PM »


You mean "Roman Church," or "Roman Catholic Church."  Remember - It's an Orthodox board, with a great majority of the members being Orthodox, so simple phrases like "the Church" automatically mean "the Orthodox Church."

Please accept my apologies. Of course I don't mean any disrespect. It's ingrained habit---to me, it's just "the Church." My mother.

I'll try to avoid this slip in the future.
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« Reply #20 on: November 17, 2008, 07:05:05 PM »

I can't speak for Luberti...

No, you can`t.

Quote
but if I happen to refer to the Catholic Church as "The Church" here on this board, I would not be doing so to offend the Orthodox. Because I do believe that the Catholic Church is "The Church", I refer to it such out of habbit. It probably wouldn't even be a conscience thing.

If you want a green or a yellow or maybe even another colour of dot, then doing this "out of habit" might be a good way to get one.  Wink
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« Reply #21 on: November 17, 2008, 10:03:08 PM »

I'll try to avoid this slip in the future.
Lubeltri,
According to our records, you have actually been warned about this "slip" on at least 6 occasions, and indeed it was part of the reason for your most recent warning. Yet you did it again while under this very warning.
After some discussion with the moderators and admins, it has been decided that the next time you submit a post which refers to anything but the Orthodox Church as "The Church", you will be immediately muted.
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« Reply #22 on: November 17, 2008, 10:07:21 PM »

Luberti is raising valid points and everyone is concerned with things like the names of Churches and who's feelings are being hurt to actually address his points. Was not the mind create by God? Did not God create everything about us as a means to recieve him? Does this not also include the mind? Is the mind just useless in our spiritual lives? I would think not when Christ commanded that we are to love God with all our minds.

Define the word "Mind". In my experience the word "Mind" in many ancient languages translates most closely to what we mean by the word "Life" or perhaps Mind/Life. It would not mean "rational analysis".
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« Reply #23 on: November 17, 2008, 10:21:02 PM »

Luberti is raising valid points and everyone is concerned with things like the names of Churches and who's feelings are being hurt to actually address his points. Was not the mind create by God? Did not God create everything about us as a means to recieve him? Does this not also include the mind? Is the mind just useless in our spiritual lives? I would think not when Christ commanded that we are to love God with all our minds.

Define the word "Mind". In my experience the word "Mind" in many ancient languages translates most closely to what we mean by the word "Life"....

...or even "Heart". Shocked
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« Reply #24 on: November 18, 2008, 05:25:36 PM »


If you want a green or a yellow or maybe even another colour of dot, then doing this "out of habit" might be a good way to get one.  Wink
Great way to treat your guests and to demonstrate Christian Charity....not.
And, BTW, I am getting really tired of the anti-Luberti show. He demonstrates nothing but charity and patience (unlike I did in the past), yet he gets used for target practice, as is demonstrated by the ridiculous warnings on this thread. Stuff that is not even an issue is being made an issue. He doesn't insult the Orthodox faith. He doesn't try to convert. He is just a voice for what is and is not Catholicism when the Catholic Church is being misrepresented. Its really frustrating to watch you all pick on him.
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« Reply #25 on: November 18, 2008, 05:29:46 PM »

Luberti is raising valid points and everyone is concerned with things like the names of Churches and who's feelings are being hurt to actually address his points. Was not the mind create by God? Did not God create everything about us as a means to recieve him? Does this not also include the mind? Is the mind just useless in our spiritual lives? I would think not when Christ commanded that we are to love God with all our minds.

Define the word "Mind". In my experience the word "Mind" in many ancient languages translates most closely to what we mean by the word "Life" or perhaps Mind/Life. It would not mean "rational analysis".
The intellect is part of our person and, as part of our person, we should use it to glorify Christ. This is true regardless of whether or not the word "mind" should be translated as "intellect".
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« Reply #26 on: November 18, 2008, 06:45:36 PM »

Luberti is raising valid points and everyone is concerned with things like the names of Churches and who's feelings are being hurt to actually address his points. Was not the mind create by God? Did not God create everything about us as a means to recieve him? Does this not also include the mind? Is the mind just useless in our spiritual lives? I would think not when Christ commanded that we are to love God with all our minds.

Define the word "Mind". In my experience the word "Mind" in many ancient languages translates most closely to what we mean by the word "Life" or perhaps Mind/Life. It would not mean "rational analysis".

It's the same as libido. I mean, libido is part of our personality, too.

Yet, these two do differ. Wink
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« Reply #27 on: November 18, 2008, 07:02:43 PM »

^ Do you think that our libido should glorify God as well?
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« Reply #28 on: November 18, 2008, 09:25:49 PM »

Luberti is raising valid points and everyone is concerned with things like the names of Churches and who's feelings are being hurt to actually address his points. Was not the mind create by God? Did not God create everything about us as a means to recieve him? Does this not also include the mind? Is the mind just useless in our spiritual lives? I would think not when Christ commanded that we are to love God with all our minds.

Define the word "Mind". In my experience the word "Mind" in many ancient languages translates most closely to what we mean by the word "Life" or perhaps Mind/Life. It would not mean "rational analysis".
The intellect is part of our person and, as part of our person, we should use it to glorify Christ. This is true regardless of whether or not the word "mind" should be translated as "intellect".

That is certainly the approach of the RCC.....like I have been saying. I merely wanted to point out that there was no scientific method, or detailed analysis of how things work back when the passages you cited were written. "With Our Whole Mind" probably referes to "disposition" . You acquire and then apply the "Mind of Faith" .
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« Reply #29 on: November 19, 2008, 02:23:49 AM »

^ Do you think that our libido should glorify God as well?


I believe the first term employed was "to love", although "to glorify" may be employed as well.

Following your reasoning:

...Was not the mind create by God? Did not God create everything about us as a means to recieve him? Does this not also include the mind? Is the mind just useless in our spiritual lives? I would think not when Christ commanded that we are to love God with all our minds.

and

.... I would think not when Christ commanded that we are to love God with all our minds.

Along with all our hearts and all our souls.  Loving Christ is not a mental exercise.
It is indeed a mental exercise, just as it is an exercize of the heart and of the the body. It is an exercise of our entire being.

I'm just pointing that, apart from "heart", "mind" and "soul", our being is consisted of "libido", too.

How does your reasoning of "loving God by our entire being" or "glorify God by our entire being" stand with that regard?
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« Reply #30 on: November 19, 2008, 05:57:39 PM »


I'm just pointing that, apart from "heart", "mind" and "soul", our being is consisted of "libido", too.

How does your reasoning of "loving God by our entire being" or "glorify God by our entire being" stand with that regard?

It means that we use this sex drive as a means to glorify God. In marriage we glorify God by using the sex drive to move us towards the sexual union which unites a man and wife and causes procreation as God intended. Ouside fo marriage, we use our sex drive as a means to know God by learning the virtue of self mastery, thus respecting the gift of sexuality and its intended purpose.
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« Reply #31 on: November 19, 2008, 05:58:49 PM »

Luberti is raising valid points and everyone is concerned with things like the names of Churches and who's feelings are being hurt to actually address his points. Was not the mind create by God? Did not God create everything about us as a means to recieve him? Does this not also include the mind? Is the mind just useless in our spiritual lives? I would think not when Christ commanded that we are to love God with all our minds.

Define the word "Mind". In my experience the word "Mind" in many ancient languages translates most closely to what we mean by the word "Life" or perhaps Mind/Life. It would not mean "rational analysis".
The intellect is part of our person and, as part of our person, we should use it to glorify Christ. This is true regardless of whether or not the word "mind" should be translated as "intellect".

That is certainly the approach of the RCC.....like I have been saying. I merely wanted to point out that there was no scientific method, or detailed analysis of how things work back when the passages you cited were written. "With Our Whole Mind" probably referes to "disposition" . You acquire and then apply the "Mind of Faith" .
Does acquiring a mind of faith mean that we stop thinking and asking questions? To me it appears that the scholastics aquired a mind of faith by following the Augustinian Ideal, "I believe that I might understand".
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« Reply #32 on: November 19, 2008, 10:13:20 PM »

Luberti is raising valid points and everyone is concerned with things like the names of Churches and who's feelings are being hurt to actually address his points. Was not the mind create by God? Did not God create everything about us as a means to recieve him? Does this not also include the mind? Is the mind just useless in our spiritual lives? I would think not when Christ commanded that we are to love God with all our minds.

Define the word "Mind". In my experience the word "Mind" in many ancient languages translates most closely to what we mean by the word "Life" or perhaps Mind/Life. It would not mean "rational analysis".
The intellect is part of our person and, as part of our person, we should use it to glorify Christ. This is true regardless of whether or not the word "mind" should be translated as "intellect".

That is certainly the approach of the RCC.....like I have been saying. I merely wanted to point out that there was no scientific method, or detailed analysis of how things work back when the passages you cited were written. "With Our Whole Mind" probably referes to "disposition" . You acquire and then apply the "Mind of Faith" .
Does acquiring a mind of faith mean that we stop thinking and asking questions? To me it appears that the scholastics aquired a mind of faith by following the Augustinian Ideal, "I believe that I might understand".

Perhaps, but the passage you cited probably wasn't intended to mean what you need it to mean. You can develop an internal logic for most anything
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« Reply #33 on: November 19, 2008, 11:02:43 PM »

That is certainly the approach of the RCC.....

Hasn't this been the approach of the saints that encourage us the study the Scriptures and the Fathers along with praxis? Didn't these saints utilize their illumined intellects to provide us with great, edifying expositions on the Faith?

I find nothing wrong with a holistic approach to living the Christian life. I don't see the problem.
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« Reply #34 on: November 19, 2008, 11:25:22 PM »

Luberti is raising valid points and everyone is concerned with things like the names of Churches and who's feelings are being hurt to actually address his points. Was not the mind create by God? Did not God create everything about us as a means to recieve him? Does this not also include the mind? Is the mind just useless in our spiritual lives? I would think not when Christ commanded that we are to love God with all our minds.

Define the word "Mind". In my experience the word "Mind" in many ancient languages translates most closely to what we mean by the word "Life" or perhaps Mind/Life. It would not mean "rational analysis".
The intellect is part of our person and, as part of our person, we should use it to glorify Christ. This is true regardless of whether or not the word "mind" should be translated as "intellect".

That is certainly the approach of the RCC.....like I have been saying. I merely wanted to point out that there was no scientific method, or detailed analysis of how things work back when the passages you cited were written. "With Our Whole Mind" probably referes to "disposition" . You acquire and then apply the "Mind of Faith" .
Does acquiring a mind of faith mean that we stop thinking and asking questions? To me it appears that the scholastics aquired a mind of faith by following the Augustinian Ideal, "I believe that I might understand".

Perhaps, but the passage you cited probably wasn't intended to mean what you need it to mean. You can develop an internal logic for most anything
You sure can. For example a person can create an internal logic to support the idea that we should just throw our brains away when dealing with God.
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« Reply #35 on: November 20, 2008, 02:21:12 AM »

That is certainly the approach of the RCC.....

Hasn't this been the approach of the saints that encourage us the study the Scriptures and the Fathers along with praxis? Didn't these saints utilize their illumined intellects to provide us with great, edifying expositions on the Faith?

I find nothing wrong with a holistic approach to living the Christian life. I don't see the problem.

And one of those saints that "utilized their illumined intellect" would be...whom?
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« Reply #36 on: November 20, 2008, 02:32:20 AM »

To me it appears that the scholastics aquired a mind of faith by following the Augustinian Ideal, "I believe that I might understand".

They probably have. Since they believe that long that they might understand, and since it is used both to "glorify" and "love" God, one may wonder about the results. Have their stance born some fruits already?


It means that we use this sex drive as a means to glorify God. In marriage we glorify God by using the sex drive to move us towards the sexual union which unites a man and wife and causes procreation as God intended. Ouside fo marriage, we use our sex drive as a means to know God by learning the virtue of self mastery, thus respecting the gift of sexuality and its intended purpose.

I wasn't asking about sex, than about libido. You first pronounced that we should love God by our entire being and that the intellect is part of our being. I said libido was part of our being, too.

Now you switched to "glorify" instead of "love" and to sex instead of libido.

My initial complain has remained unanswered.
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« Reply #37 on: November 20, 2008, 03:11:05 AM »


It means that we use this sex drive as a means to glorify God. In marriage we glorify God by using the sex drive to move us towards the sexual union which unites a man and wife and causes procreation as God intended. Ouside fo marriage, we use our sex drive as a means to know God by learning the virtue of self mastery, thus respecting the gift of sexuality and its intended purpose.

I wasn't asking about sex, than about libido. You first pronounced that we should love God by our entire being and that the intellect is part of our being. I said libido was part of our being, too.

Now you switched to "glorify" instead of "love" and to sex instead of libido.
Actually, lurker, Papist didn't say anything about sex.  What he did talk about was the sex drive, which is in fact the definition of "libido".

As to his apparent switch to "glorify" from "love", you actually encouraged that switch with this post:
^ Do you think that our libido should glorify God as well?


I believe the first term employed was "to love", although "to glorify" may be employed as well.

Following your reasoning:

...Was not the mind create by God? Did not God create everything about us as a means to recieve him? Does this not also include the mind? Is the mind just useless in our spiritual lives? I would think not when Christ commanded that we are to love God with all our minds.

and

.... I would think not when Christ commanded that we are to love God with all our minds.

Along with all our hearts and all our souls.  Loving Christ is not a mental exercise.
It is indeed a mental exercise, just as it is an exercize of the heart and of the the body. It is an exercise of our entire being.

I'm just pointing that, apart from "heart", "mind" and "soul", our being is consisted of "libido", too.

How does your reasoning of "loving God by our entire being" or "glorify God by our entire being" stand with that regard?

My initial complain has remained unanswered.
Now, what was your initial complaint?
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« Reply #38 on: November 20, 2008, 03:13:29 AM »

Let's review:

Libido = Sexual Drive

Libido is sanctified by Holy Matrimony; Otherwise, there would be no reproduction of humanity.

Outside of Holy Matrimony, Libido is a Passion which affects one's mind, one's soul and one's heart.  We can agree that there are terrible consequences for those who improperly exercise their libidos like disease, conflict, angst, domestic violence, unintended pregnancies, child support payments, appearances on Judge Mathis, etc.

Quote from: Papist
Ouside fo of marriage, we use our sex drive as a means to know God by learning the virtue of self mastery, thus respecting the gift of sexuality and its intended purpose.

Try the other way around; The charisma of self mastery allows for control of one's libido in order to love God with all of one's soul, heart and mind.
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« Reply #39 on: November 20, 2008, 03:22:45 AM »


Try the other way around; The charisma of self mastery allows for control of one's libido in order to love God with all of one's soul, heart and mind.

If this is translated into obvious truth that there are appropriate and inappropriate ways of employing various parts of our personality in our personal relation towards God I wholeheartedly agree.

In that case, there ought to be both appropriate and inappropriate way of employing man's intellect in man's personal relation towards God, too.

Now, I'll have to wait for Papist's response.
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« Reply #40 on: November 20, 2008, 03:24:07 AM »

My initial complain has remained unanswered.
Now, what was your initial complaint?

Nothing directed to you. You wouldn't understand it, but that's not what alienates you from God.
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« Reply #41 on: November 20, 2008, 03:31:21 AM »


Try the other way around; The charisma of self mastery allows for control of one's libido in order to love God with all of one's soul, heart and mind.

If this is translated into obvious truth that there are appropriate and inappropriate ways of employing various parts of our personality in our personal relation towards God I wholeheartedly agree.

I meant the above statement exactly as I wrote it - no semantics games.   angel

In that case, there ought to be both appropriate and inappropriate way of employing man's intellect in man's personal relation towards God, too.

Now, I'll have to wait for Papist's response.

Regardless of what man's intellect has to do with God, God is still Love.
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« Reply #42 on: November 20, 2008, 03:35:39 AM »

My initial complain has remained unanswered.
Now, what was your initial complaint?
Nothing directed to you. You wouldn't understand it,
Try me!  I'm not as stupid as you seem to think I am. Grin

Quote
but that's not what alienates you from God.
What does?
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« Reply #43 on: November 20, 2008, 03:53:55 AM »


Regardless of what man's intellect has to do with God, God is still Love.

That does have nothing with the subject being debated here, which is, to remind you, the claim about "faith through understanding" based on augustinian misunderstanding, and its particularly malign mode expressed by Anselm of Canterbury, completely alien to Orthodoxy.

As yet another remainder, I asked several questions to the present representatives of such an approach, our RCC friends, Papist and Lubeltri, and still haven't heard the answers to the question. If this thread will not be hijacked, we might have an interesting debate.
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« Reply #44 on: November 20, 2008, 04:47:11 AM »

That is certainly the approach of the RCC.....

Hasn't this been the approach of the saints that encourage us the study the Scriptures and the Fathers along with praxis? Didn't these saints utilize their illumined intellects to provide us with great, edifying expositions on the Faith?

I find nothing wrong with a holistic approach to living the Christian life. I don't see the problem.

And one of those saints that "utilized their illumined intellect" would be...whom?

The ones who

Quote from: my last post
provide us with great, edifying expositions on the Faith

More specifically, one of the many examples I can think of is Mother Maria of Paris, in her work Types of Religious Lives. It's a very interesting analysis on the psychology behind the types of "spiritual" devotion, with conclusions drawn from her observations of the history of the Russian Orthodox Church in Soviet times. In the essay, she addresses several psuedo-pieties, one of them being "Synodal Piety". Here, she explains that, "From what has been said [about the environment that this certain false piety creates] it should be obvious that on such soil one could hardly expect to see creative forces grow."

She goes on:

Quote from: Mother Maria of Paris
Here everything is channeled toward conservation, to the preservation of the foundations, to the repetition of feelings, words and gestures. Creativity demands some new kind of challenge; here there was none, neither in the field of ideas, nor in the field of arts, nor in the way of life. Everything was strongly guarded and protected. Innovation was not permitted. There was no need for any creative principle. The synodal type of religious life, which promoted other values along with spiritual ones, namely those of the State, of a way of life and of a particular tradition, not only distorted and confused the hierarchy of values, but often simply replaced Christian love with an egotistical love for the things of this world. It is difficult, even impossible to see Christ, to experience a Christianization of life, where the principle of the secularization of the Church is openly proclaimed. This type of piety was not up to the difficult task of rendering to God what is God’s and what is Caesar’s to Caesar.

...

It is difficult to have two views on whether this psychology has any correlation with the current problems of the Church’s life. In the first place, life today demands creative efforts from us so urgently that no grouping which lacks a creative agenda can expect to succeed. Moreover, there is no doubt but that on the historical plane the Synodal period has come to an end with no possibility of return; there is no basis for assuming that the psychology which it engendered can survive it for long. In this sense it is not important how we assess such a religious type. Only one thing is important: without a doubt it is dying and has no future. The future challenges the Church with such complex, new and crucial problems that it is difficult to say off hand to which religious type it will give the possibility to prove itself and reveal itself in a creative manner.

To me, it seems like not only a saint using her mental faculties (not exclusively, of course) to ground us in the Faith, but also encourage us to use ours as well for the good of the Church and her witness, and to not settle for counterfeits when it comes to praxis.

I've personally found almost every work of a saint intellectually stimulating in some way or another. That's just what gets some people's attention.
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« Reply #45 on: November 20, 2008, 04:57:50 AM »


Regardless of what man's intellect has to do with God, God is still Love.

That does have nothing with the subject being debated here, which is, to remind you, the claim about "faith through understanding" based on augustinian misunderstanding, and its particularly malign mode expressed by Anselm of Canterbury, completely alien to Orthodoxy.
So you would argue that the intellect plays no part at all in how we love God?
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« Reply #46 on: November 20, 2008, 10:38:12 AM »

BTW, Pravoslav, before you go Dan Brown and make a crack at St. Josemaria and Opus Dei, I suggest you actually read The Way and actually meet Opus Dei members. Go on a weekend retreat with them (I just did this past weekend, in fact).

The fact is that Opus Dei is an extremely controversial group, both inside and outside of the Roman Catholic Church.  I think I have met members of Opus Dei.  The thing is, they never admitted to me being members of the organisation and were in many ways quite secretive.  IMHO, your enthusiasm for this group does nothing to bolster your cause for Catholicism.  It might make some think that you have a tendency towards sectarian extremism.  I may or may not be counted among these people.  I am not saying that the link below gives the whole story, but it does give one pause to consider some disturbing questions.  And it's not only here that one can see evidence of the controversy.  Just doing a google search would provide one with plenty of reasons to question the motivations of this group and perhaps even its founder.

http://www.odan.org/



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« Reply #47 on: November 20, 2008, 01:38:49 PM »

To me it appears that the scholastics aquired a mind of faith by following the Augustinian Ideal, "I believe that I might understand".

They probably have. Since they believe that long that they might understand, and since it is used both to "glorify" and "love" God, one may wonder about the results. Have their stance born some fruits already?


It means that we use this sex drive as a means to glorify God. In marriage we glorify God by using the sex drive to move us towards the sexual union which unites a man and wife and causes procreation as God intended. Ouside fo marriage, we use our sex drive as a means to know God by learning the virtue of self mastery, thus respecting the gift of sexuality and its intended purpose.

I wasn't asking about sex, than about libido. You first pronounced that we should love God by our entire being and that the intellect is part of our being. I said libido was part of our being, too.

Now you switched to "glorify" instead of "love" and to sex instead of libido.

My initial complain has remained unanswered.
I'm sorry but now you are playing word games and I will not be drawn in.
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« Reply #48 on: November 20, 2008, 02:12:29 PM »

...

The complains against your stance could be placed in the following categories:

a) there are no Orthodox Saints with "ilumined intellect"; those of them who produced great expositions of faith, a.k.a. Holy Fathers, have done that in exercising their God gifted talent; unlike Westerners, Orthodox don't use the intellect to speculate about unconceivable - we reject that error of Blessed Augustine;

b) personality of St. Maria of Paris is that one of a repentant, and of martyr, not of a theologian;

c) the content of her work you presented here is of highly dubious Orthodoxy, perhaps thanking to her confessor Bulgakov whom was preaching heresy of Sophianism, condemned both by ROCOR and MP; moreover, although the subject might appear as intellectually challenging, it is actually not directed towards anything relevant for salvation and gaining the Heavenly Kingdom, than to establishment of an Earlthy Kingdom, that is an attempted bound to fail.
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« Reply #49 on: November 20, 2008, 02:20:27 PM »

Luberti is raising valid points and everyone is concerned with things like the names of Churches and who's feelings are being hurt to actually address his points. Was not the mind create by God? Did not God create everything about us as a means to recieve him? Does this not also include the mind? Is the mind just useless in our spiritual lives? I would think not when Christ commanded that we are to love God with all our minds.

Define the word "Mind". In my experience the word "Mind" in many ancient languages translates most closely to what we mean by the word "Life" or perhaps Mind/Life. It would not mean "rational analysis".
The intellect is part of our person and, as part of our person, we should use it to glorify Christ. This is true regardless of whether or not the word "mind" should be translated as "intellect".

That is certainly the approach of the RCC.....like I have been saying. I merely wanted to point out that there was no scientific method, or detailed analysis of how things work back when the passages you cited were written. "With Our Whole Mind" probably referes to "disposition" . You acquire and then apply the "Mind of Faith" .
Does acquiring a mind of faith mean that we stop thinking and asking questions? To me it appears that the scholastics aquired a mind of faith by following the Augustinian Ideal, "I believe that I might understand".

Perhaps, but the passage you cited probably wasn't intended to mean what you need it to mean. You can develop an internal logic for most anything
You sure can. For example a person can create an internal logic to support the idea that we should just throw our brains away when dealing with God.

Good thing I didn't say that then. I was referring to an overly mechanical approach to spirituality and the Mysteries of the Church that seeks to boil them down to  recipe's and equations and legalisms.
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« Reply #50 on: November 20, 2008, 02:31:11 PM »

This thread just confirms my decision to not be Eastern Orthodox. Man is a rational creature and the idea that that God given reason was not given to us to direct us towards God is just not in keeping with the Christian idea that we were created for God.
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« Reply #51 on: November 20, 2008, 02:44:22 PM »

Man is a rational creature and the idea that that God given reason was not given to us to direct us towards God is just not in keeping with the Christian idea that we were created for God.

The reason was gifted to us:

a) to be created in the icon (image) of Good
b) for the purpose of being able to distinct good from evil

That's according to New Testament. But you may have some additional arguments?
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« Reply #52 on: November 20, 2008, 02:45:09 PM »

This thread just confirms my decision to not be Eastern Orthodox. Man is a rational creature and the idea that that God given reason was not given to us to direct us towards God is just not in keeping with the Christian idea that we were created for God.

Sorry to hear of your decision Smiley

Never the less, I certainly would not disagree with your statement. Nothing about the Church or it's mysteries is unreasonable or shouldn't be thought through and "understood" to best of our ability.

The problem for me is a Western World View that has a very narrow approach to applying "Reason" . I find that approach stiff and prideful and produces formula's in the place of insight. Not always, but often enough.
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« Reply #53 on: November 20, 2008, 03:33:49 PM »

Man is a rational creature and the idea that that God given reason was not given to us to direct us towards God is just not in keeping with the Christian idea that we were created for God.

The reason was gifted to us:

a) to be created in the icon (image) of Good
b) for the purpose of being able to distinct good from evil

That's according to New Testament. But you may have some additional arguments?
c) To know that God is. The bible says that his eternal power and deity are made evident in what he has created. Thus, we can reason to his existence from his creation.
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« Reply #54 on: November 20, 2008, 04:29:47 PM »

^ Papist, I'm also saddened to hear of your decision.   Cry
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« Reply #55 on: November 20, 2008, 04:38:18 PM »

This thread just confirms my decision to not be Eastern Orthodox. Man is a rational creature and the idea that that God given reason was not given to us to direct us towards God is just not in keeping with the Christian idea that we were created for God.
So, you would see confirmation of your decision in a thread on a Netodox forum, and this without even questioning whether the participants on this thread are truly representative of Orthodox faith and praxis? Roll Eyes  (If you want my personal opinion, the views you've seen from a couple of posters on this thread certainly don't represent my understanding of Orthodox Christianity.)
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« Reply #56 on: November 20, 2008, 04:39:24 PM »

Man is a rational creature and the idea that that God given reason was not given to us to direct us towards God is just not in keeping with the Christian idea that we were created for God.

The reason was gifted to us:

a) to be created in the icon (image) of Good
b) for the purpose of being able to distinct good from evil

That's according to New Testament. But you may have some additional arguments?
c) To know that God is. The bible says that his eternal power and deity are made evident in what he has created. Thus, we can reason to his existence from his creation.

Your c) is actually pre-condition for b). Moreover, God has "made evident" (Orthodox position would be "revealed himself") only to the extent needed for our salvation. Therefore, we do know that He is, but cannot know what He is over the extent He had revealed Themselves.

That's exactly what you miss, that's where Blessed Augustine erred and Anselm added to his error.
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« Reply #57 on: November 20, 2008, 04:53:23 PM »

Moreover:

His "external force" that has been "made evident" in His creation as a grounds for us to "know" Him is:

a) grounded entirely in creation, and disregards completely Incarnation of Son as God-Man and His victory over sin and death;

b) that particular logical tool can be used for proving the existence of God only, but isn't apt to prove His existence;

c) it's completely superflous as method to knowing God indirectly, through His creation; we know that from other sources much better
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« Reply #58 on: November 20, 2008, 06:46:15 PM »

Man is a rational creature and the idea that that God given reason was not given to us to direct us towards God is just not in keeping with the Christian idea that we were created for God.

The reason was gifted to us:

a) to be created in the icon (image) of Good
b) for the purpose of being able to distinct good from evil

That's according to New Testament. But you may have some additional arguments?
c) To know that God is. The bible says that his eternal power and deity are made evident in what he has created. Thus, we can reason to his existence from his creation.

I don't think anyone thinks it cant be done. It's one approach that comes out of the Western European experience. The Eastern experience does not think Christianity cant be reasoned through to some extent. Obviously it can. But the Eastern Way is a bit more centered experiential knowledge and transformation.   
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« Reply #59 on: November 20, 2008, 06:48:21 PM »

This thread just confirms my decision to not be Eastern Orthodox. Man is a rational creature and the idea that that God given reason was not given to us to direct us towards God is just not in keeping with the Christian idea that we were created for God.
So, you would see confirmation of your decision in a thread on a Netodox forum, and this without even questioning whether the participants on this thread are truly representative of Orthodox faith and praxis? Roll Eyes  (If you want my personal opinion, the views you've seen from a couple of posters on this thread certainly don't represent my understanding of Orthodox Christianity.)

Dont get too upset. He has been around for a long time on online forums. I don't think he was making a serious statement.
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« Reply #60 on: November 20, 2008, 09:56:49 PM »

The complains against your stance could be placed in the following categories:

a) there are no Orthodox Saints with "ilumined intellect"; those of them who produced great expositions of faith, a.k.a. Holy Fathers, have done that in exercising their God gifted talent; unlike Westerners, Orthodox don't use the intellect to speculate about unconceivable - we reject that error of Blessed Augustine;

What was unconceivable that St. Augustine explored (that he did not openly admit his fallible understanding on)?

Quote
b) personality of St. Maria of Paris is that one of a repentant, and of martyr, not of a theologian;

c) the content of her work you presented here is of highly dubious Orthodoxy, perhaps thanking to her confessor Bulgakov whom was preaching heresy of Sophianism, condemned both by ROCOR and MP; moreover, although the subject might appear as intellectually challenging, it is actually not directed towards anything relevant for salvation and gaining the Heavenly Kingdom, than to establishment of an Earlthy Kingdom, that is an attempted bound to fail.

Anything is, if you're doing it right.
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« Reply #61 on: November 21, 2008, 11:41:39 AM »

Quote
Man is a rational creature and the idea that that God given reason was not given to us to direct us towards God is just not in keeping with the Christian idea that we were created for God.

Agreed.  Smiley
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« Reply #62 on: November 22, 2008, 11:45:43 AM »

This thread just confirms my decision to not be Eastern Orthodox.
Hogwash.  You are being completely irrational here. The life of the Church which is unique and theanthropic is displayed in every believer according to their individual contribution. It is one of the most childish things I hear on fora: "This thread is the reason I'm not Catholic/Buddhist/Islamic/Hindu/Zoroastrian......" If you think that an oline conversation involving three people represents all of Catholicism/Islam/Hinduism/Buddhism.... then all Catholics must believe in Medjugorje, because every Catholic I personally know does.
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« Reply #63 on: November 22, 2008, 12:16:09 PM »

This thread just confirms my decision to not be Eastern Orthodox.
Hogwash.  You are being completely irrational here. The life of the Church which is unique and theanthropic is displayed in every believer according to
You're not a very good counselor are you.  Wink
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« Reply #64 on: November 22, 2008, 12:20:07 PM »

You're not a very good counselor are you.  Wink
You're not paying me, so you're not a client.
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« Reply #65 on: November 22, 2008, 10:01:33 PM »

What was unconceivable that St. Augustine explored (that he did not openly admit his fallible understanding on)?


There is abundant literature about it online.
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/bless_aug.aspx
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/inq_reformed.aspx
http://orthodoxinfo.com/searchresults.aspx?kw=augustine
http://www.romanity.org/htm/rom.18.en.augustine_unknowingly_rejects_the_doctrine.01.htm
http://www.romanity.org/htm/rom.31.en.augustine.htm
Quote
However, Augustine is the unique source of the humorous errors of Barlaam the Calabrian who was accused of heresy by St. Gregory Palamas and was condemned as a heretic by the Councils of Constantinople New Rome held in 1341, 1347 and 1351 for his teaching that God reveals his will to humans by means of creatures which He brings into existence to be seen and heard and which He passes back into non existence when the revelations have been accomplished.

Such revelations have been supposedly recorded in the Bible because preserved by the Biblical writers.

This nonsense cannot be termed a heresy since it is too stupid.

The method he introduced in Christianity never produced anything but errors, Papist's post offering a fine example of it.

Quote from: Papist
c) To know that God is. The bible says that his eternal power and deity are made evident in what he has created. Thus, we can reason to his existence from his creation.

Let us examine the content of the statement:

Fact to be proved: Knowledge on God's existence

Proof used: a) The statement of the Bible, about b) His eternal power and deity c) having been made evident in what He has created

Method of proving: Reason

The problem is that the Knowledge on God's existence cannot be logically proved if the proof is the saying of the Bible.

If we are to prove the fact "that God is", the Bible cannot have the meaning of the message of God, since we are yet to prove that "God is" at all.

Moreover, even before we have proved it, we are employing some attributes of His, namely "power and deity" in his creation. How does elaborating properties, attributes, of something, the existence of whom/what/which still haven't been proved, can be employed as a proof in a reasonable, logical method?

It cannot. Either the method is not logical, reasonable, or such means can't be used. You can't have both.

All that was achieved is to create blurb in divine message by applying human "wisdom" to build a false proof about what nobody denied in the first place. And upon such, unnecessary conclusions, Anselm went building further, Thomas Aquinas tried to correct but was doom to fail in advance due to the limits of already adopted Papal Theology, Bonaventure added, Albert the Great added...and so on.
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« Reply #66 on: December 17, 2008, 09:37:44 AM »

Are we debating the role of man's rational faculty in the spiritual life?  I don't see any problems with St. Maria's words.  The difference between the EO and RC positions, according to my limited understanding, is that in EO tradition, reason is employed, and eventually surpassed, in man's 'knowledge' of God, whereas in RC tradition, the reason is more likely to serve a prominent role in their version of 'theosis'.  All of our faculties, including reason, emotion, and sex drive, among many others, are employed in our theosis, but they are not paramount because the nous is a higher aspect of the soul than the rational faculty.  The problems of misunderstanding come when the nous is translated into English as "mind" or "intellect", as it is in the English translation of the Philokalia, when nous is really something different entirely, like the heart.  In RC works, I've seen more of an identification between the nous and the faculty of reason. 

Maybe you all are debating something else, but there were enough side remarks for me to be unable to understand the subject of debate with any specificity.  Correct me if I misunderstood.
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« Reply #67 on: December 17, 2008, 01:00:40 PM »

Are we debating the role of man's rational faculty in the spiritual life?  I don't see any problems with St. Maria's words.  The difference between the EO and RC positions, according to my limited understanding, is that in EO tradition, reason is employed, and eventually surpassed, in man's 'knowledge' of God, whereas in RC tradition, the reason is more likely to serve a prominent role in their version of 'theosis'.  All of our faculties, including reason, emotion, and sex drive, among many others, are employed in our theosis, but they are not paramount because the nous is a higher aspect of the soul than the rational faculty.  The problems of misunderstanding come when the nous is translated into English as "mind" or "intellect", as it is in the English translation of the Philokalia, when nous is really something different entirely, like the heart.  In RC works, I've seen more of an identification between the nous and the faculty of reason. 

Maybe you all are debating something else, but there were enough side remarks for me to be unable to understand the subject of debate with any specificity.  Correct me if I misunderstood.
But "heart" in the in the scriptures, does not meaning feeling or a sense of something. The Nous is the gournd of being. That would include our intellect.
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« Reply #68 on: December 17, 2008, 04:00:25 PM »

Are we debating the role of man's rational faculty in the spiritual life?  I don't see any problems with St. Maria's words.  The difference between the EO and RC positions, according to my limited understanding, is that in EO tradition, reason is employed, and eventually surpassed, in man's 'knowledge' of God, whereas in RC tradition, the reason is more likely to serve a prominent role in their version of 'theosis'.  All of our faculties, including reason, emotion, and sex drive, among many others, are employed in our theosis, but they are not paramount because the nous is a higher aspect of the soul than the rational faculty.  The problems of misunderstanding come when the nous is translated into English as "mind" or "intellect", as it is in the English translation of the Philokalia, when nous is really something different entirely, like the heart.  In RC works, I've seen more of an identification between the nous and the faculty of reason. 

Maybe you all are debating something else, but there were enough side remarks for me to be unable to understand the subject of debate with any specificity.  Correct me if I misunderstood.
I don't know all of the fine details, but my view on it is that right reason can help solve many of life's problems. And of course, charity (or the heart ?) is one of the highest virtues. As Christians we are called to love God and to love our neighbor.
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« Reply #69 on: December 17, 2008, 04:12:21 PM »

Are we debating the role of man's rational faculty in the spiritual life?  I don't see any problems with St. Maria's words. 

As the author of the tangent that became a thread, I don't know what others are debating, but my point was that EO don't mix apples and oranges - application of reason (part, or an attribute, of human personality) is limited to the notions apt to be examined by reason. The process of application of reason, i.e. rational thinking, making rational conclusions, is strictly separated from irrational, supranatural, mystical or ecstatic experience.

St. Maria's of Paris words don't fit that criteria.


The difference between the EO and RC positions, according to my limited understanding, is that in EO tradition, reason is employed, and eventually surpassed, in man's 'knowledge' of God, whereas in RC tradition, the reason is more likely to serve a prominent role in their version of 'theosis'.  All of our faculties, including reason, emotion, and sex drive, among many others, are employed in our theosis, but they are not paramount because the nous is a higher aspect of the soul than the rational faculty.  The problems of misunderstanding come when the nous is translated into English as "mind" or "intellect", as it is in the English translation of the Philokalia, when nous is really something different entirely, like the heart.  In RC works, I've seen more of an identification between the nous and the faculty of reason. 


RC do what we don't and I believe I already elaborated that above.
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« Reply #70 on: December 17, 2008, 04:32:57 PM »


Try the other way around; The charisma of self mastery allows for control of one's libido in order to love God with all of one's soul, heart and mind.

If this is translated into obvious truth that there are appropriate and inappropriate ways of employing various parts of our personality in our personal relation towards God I wholeheartedly agree.

In that case, there ought to be both appropriate and inappropriate way of employing man's intellect in man's personal relation towards God, too.

Now, I'll have to wait for Papist's response.
And I agree. Throwing our brains out when dealing with God is the inapporpriate way.
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« Reply #71 on: December 17, 2008, 06:10:48 PM »


Try the other way around; The charisma of self mastery allows for control of one's libido in order to love God with all of one's soul, heart and mind.

If this is translated into obvious truth that there are appropriate and inappropriate ways of employing various parts of our personality in our personal relation towards God I wholeheartedly agree.

In that case, there ought to be both appropriate and inappropriate way of employing man's intellect in man's personal relation towards God, too.

Now, I'll have to wait for Papist's response.
And I agree. Throwing our brains out when dealing with God is the inapporpriate way.

Exactly.

Why do you make conclusions in expectation that they should pass examination by reason only if the examiner throw out his brain?
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« Reply #72 on: December 17, 2008, 10:30:22 PM »

The Nous is the ground of being.

 Shocked Shocked Shocked
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« Reply #73 on: December 18, 2008, 03:02:17 PM »


Try the other way around; The charisma of self mastery allows for control of one's libido in order to love God with all of one's soul, heart and mind.

If this is translated into obvious truth that there are appropriate and inappropriate ways of employing various parts of our personality in our personal relation towards God I wholeheartedly agree.

In that case, there ought to be both appropriate and inappropriate way of employing man's intellect in man's personal relation towards God, too.

Now, I'll have to wait for Papist's response.
And I agree. Throwing our brains out when dealing with God is the inapporpriate way.

Exactly.

Why do you make conclusions in expectation that they should pass examination by reason only if the examiner throw out his brain?
come again. Wink
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