Author Topic: Our Father  (Read 42896 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline ozgeorge

  • I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 16,383
  • My plans for retirement.
    • Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Australia
Re: Our Father
« Reply #45 on: November 16, 2008, 06:05:48 PM »
There are no nouns being described as verbs.  I'm not clear where the statement originated.   ???
I think Marc is referring to your translating the noun "ofeilimata" as the verb "I feel I owe".
I think you are actually both right in a way.
The word used in the Lord's prayer for "transgressions/debts" in Greek is "οφειλήματα" ("ofeilimata") which is actually best translated as "indebtednesses" rather than "debts". T
he word for "debts" is "οφλεματα" ("oflemata"). So the verb "I feel I owe" describes the noun "indebtedness" quite well.
If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Offline SolEX01

  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,425
    • Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Metropolis of New Jersey
Re: Our Father
« Reply #46 on: November 16, 2008, 06:16:53 PM »
^ Alternatively, "I am indebted to you" describes the Parable of the 10,000 Talents.  We know that the Parable describes the Last Judgment where the Master forgave the Servant's Big debt and the Servant couldn't forgive a Small debt.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2008, 06:18:27 PM by SolEX01 »

Offline ozgeorge

  • I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 16,383
  • My plans for retirement.
    • Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Australia
Re: Our Father
« Reply #47 on: November 16, 2008, 06:27:18 PM »
^ But it only describes it because again, in the parable of the 10,000 talents, Our Lord uses the same word: "οφειλετης" (one who is indebted) rather than "οφλεμα" ("debt").
If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Offline SolEX01

  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,425
    • Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Metropolis of New Jersey
Re: Our Father
« Reply #48 on: November 16, 2008, 06:49:46 PM »
So, we're in agreement?   :)

Offline ozgeorge

  • I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 16,383
  • My plans for retirement.
    • Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Australia
Re: Our Father
« Reply #49 on: November 16, 2008, 07:34:15 PM »
So, we're in agreement?   :)
Yes, absolutely, but I thought it was important to make clear to Marc why "ofeileia" ("indebtedness") is different to "oflema" ("debt"). The former, as you say, carries the sense of "I feel I owe".
« Last Edit: November 16, 2008, 09:36:48 PM by ozgeorge »
If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Offline Marc Hanna

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 319
Re: Our Father
« Reply #50 on: November 16, 2008, 09:34:12 PM »
Yes, that was my only issue.  We clearly have the same understanding of the verse, but I thought you were trying to get at something else.  The definition "I feel I owe you" better describes the verbal cognate, however, all derivatives in the passage are substantive (nouns).  There really is no issue.  I apologize if I came across as confrontational.

Offline Justin Kissel

  • Protospatharios
  • ****************
  • Posts: 32,779
Re: Our Father
« Reply #51 on: November 16, 2008, 11:00:39 PM »
Ok, here's another Our Father question: which is more correct...

Our Father, who art in the heavens
or
Our Father, who art in heaven



Jesus ♫   ♫   ♫   ♫
Jesus ♫   ♫   ♫   ♫
The original bleeding heart ♫
That is what thou art ♫
Jesus ♫   ♫   ♫   ♫

Offline ozgeorge

  • I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 16,383
  • My plans for retirement.
    • Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Australia
Re: Our Father
« Reply #52 on: November 16, 2008, 11:10:59 PM »
Ok, here's another Our Father question: which is more correct...

Our Father, who art in the heavens
or
Our Father, who art in heaven

Technically, "the Heavens" (plural).
If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Offline ozgeorge

  • I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 16,383
  • My plans for retirement.
    • Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Australia
Re: Our Father
« Reply #53 on: November 16, 2008, 11:30:56 PM »
Asteriktos,
Here is a literal translation of the Lord's Prayer as it is prayed in Koine. This is my own translation, so don't take it as Gospel (excuse the pun).
Perhaps others may like to critique, correct, add or subtract from it.

Our Father,
The One Who is in the Heavens (plural),
May Thy Name be hallowed,
May Thy Kingdom come,
May Thy Will be done as in Heaven (singular), so on Earth.
The bread of our subsistence, give us today,
And lay aside (remit) us our indebtednesses
As we remit the ones indebted to us
And do not lead us into trial (discipline by provocation)
But release us from the evil one.

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Offline prodromas

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,239
  • Greek Orthodox
Re: Our Father
« Reply #54 on: November 17, 2008, 05:34:35 AM »
And do not lead us into trial (discipline by provocation)

George this is truly fascinating. Interesting that temptation is used the linguistic shift of that word must be the reason for the difference in understanding.
The sins I don't commit are largely due to the weakness of my limbs.

1915-1923 Հայոց Ցեղասպանութիւն ,never again,
ܩܛܠܐ ܕܥܡܐ ܐܬܘܪܝܐ 1920-1914, never again,
השואה  1933-1945, never again,
(1914-1923) Ελληνική Γενοκτονία, never again

Offline Marc Hanna

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 319
Re: Our Father
« Reply #55 on: November 17, 2008, 09:33:03 AM »
Literal

πατερ    ημων      ο     εν τοις ουρανοις
Father of ours who (is) in  the  heavens

We must also consider the flexible use of the article in Greek and composite nature of plural concepts.  Is τοις ουρανοις a proper name or just the "the heavens" which also includes the sky?

So a proper translation of πατερ ημων ο εν τοις ουρανοις from a strictly linguistic point of view is also "Our Father who is in Heaven."

Context and theological leanings are the key to translation.

Offline Marc Hanna

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 319
Re: Our Father
« Reply #56 on: November 17, 2008, 09:41:15 AM »
And do not lead us into trial (discipline by provocation)

George this is truly fascinating. Interesting that temptation is used the linguistic shift of that word must be the reason for the difference in understanding.
G3986
πειρασμός
peirasmos
pi-ras-mos'
From G3985; a putting to proof (by experiment [of good], experience [of evil], solicitation, discipline or provocation); by implication adversity: - temptation, X try.

The use of trial should be understood as testing as in an experiment, not as a legal proceeding, although they both draw their meaning from the same root.  Again, according to theological leanings, temptation is the trial.

Offline Thomas

  • Section Moderator
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,890
Re: Our Father
« Reply #57 on: November 17, 2008, 02:05:26 PM »
I wonder if the Antiochians have an official position. Anyone know?

The Antiochians officially use the prayer with  "deliver us from evil" as in the King James English preferred by Elizabeth Hapgood translations which are the foundatioon for the Antiochian jurisdictional English translation for liturgical and other prayer books.  There are many in the Antiochian Church, primarily converts, but some from Slavic influenced parishes who utilize  "deliver us from the evil one." My impression is most the Arabic parishes when English is used, use the "deliver us from evil".

Thomas
Your brother in Christ ,
Thomas

Offline ozgeorge

  • I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 16,383
  • My plans for retirement.
    • Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Australia
Re: Our Father
« Reply #58 on: November 17, 2008, 05:56:06 PM »
Context and theological leanings are the key to translation.
Absolutely! As I have tried to point out on this thread already in this post. Otherwise, the Creed would include something about the General being in the midst of the troops! :D
If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Offline Marc Hanna

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 319
Re: Our Father
« Reply #59 on: November 17, 2008, 07:14:02 PM »
^^That's the problem with Sola Scriptura, if you take the tradition out, you can make the scriptures read what ever ou want them to.

Offline ozgeorge

  • I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 16,383
  • My plans for retirement.
    • Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Australia
Re: Our Father
« Reply #60 on: November 17, 2008, 08:55:26 PM »
^^That's the problem with Sola Scriptura, if you take the tradition out, you can make the scriptures read what ever ou want them to.

I think we've just discovered the best argument against sola scriptura!
Outside of the context of the Church, the Fathers, the language, the Scriptures can mean anything.
If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.