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Justin Kissel
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« on: November 13, 2008, 02:03:53 AM »

In the Our Father, which is more correct...


forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors
or...
forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us


and deliver us from evil
or...
and deliver us from the evil one
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« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2008, 02:15:48 AM »

1.  The second one - trespasses.

2.  The first one - evil.

My former Priest provided a handout on the translation of the Lord's Prayer during a Youth group meeting.
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« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2008, 03:24:49 AM »

1.  The second one - trespasses.

2.  The first one - evil.

My former Priest provided a handout on the translation of the Lord's Prayer during a Youth group meeting.

I would disagree on 2.  and add that my priest says otherwise.  There is no nebulous "evil" but an "evil one" who assaults and tempts us.  It is he we must say to, as Christ, "Get thee behind me, Satan!"
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« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2008, 06:12:36 AM »

2.  The first one - evil
SolEX01,
The "evil one" is more correct. Matthew 6:13 reads: "απο του πονηρου", "from the evil one".
If it was "from evil", it would be "απο τα πονηρα", or "απο τo πονηρo".
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« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2008, 07:59:40 AM »

At least in the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, this is the answer to the questions posed:

Quote
Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name.
Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread;
and forgive us our trespasses
as we forgive those who trespass against us;
and lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.

I will say that there has been some considerable discussion regarding whether the last word should be 'evil' or 'Evil One'.

I do know that ultimately the answer has been that the Bishops have authorized this translation, and as long as you are in the GOAA, this is the translation to be used.

 Smiley
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« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2008, 08:33:00 AM »

At least in the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, this is the answer to the questions posed:

Quote
Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name.
Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread;
and forgive us our trespasses
as we forgive those who trespass against us;
and lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.

I will say that there has been some considerable discussion regarding whether the last word should be 'evil' or 'Evil One'.

I do know that ultimately the answer has been that the Bishops have authorized this translation, and as long as you are in the GOAA, this is the translation to be used.

 Smiley

That's interesting, because in the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Australia's english prayer book, it is translated as "evil one"- and this is how it is translated in our English Liturgy.
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« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2008, 08:33:26 AM »

As far as "debts" vs. "trespasses" go, isn't it also because of some differences in the text of the Lord's Prayer in Mathew vs. Luke?
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« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2008, 09:00:24 AM »

At least in the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, this is the answer to the questions posed:

Quote
Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name.
Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread;
and forgive us our trespasses
as we forgive those who trespass against us;
and lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.

I will say that there has been some considerable discussion regarding whether the last word should be 'evil' or 'Evil One'.

I do know that ultimately the answer has been that the Bishops have authorized this translation, and as long as you are in the GOAA, this is the translation to be used.

 Smiley

That's interesting, because in the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Australia's english prayer book, it is translated as "evil one"- and this is how it is translated in our English Liturgy.
Does Australia retain the "art," "Thy" and "Thou?"  I've notice that those who go to "are," "your" and "You" feel less defference to KJV and BCP wording.  I remember when the Lutherans (I was one at the time) issued a new book of worship, and they put both a modern translation and the old BCP next to it, as the preliminary versions showed that even when a modern translation was provided, the congregations didn't use it.  Baumstark's law with a vengeance.
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« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2008, 09:25:11 AM »

Does Australia retain the "art," "Thy" and "Thou?"  I've notice that those who go to "are," "your" and "You" feel less defference to KJV and BCP wording. 
We don't use "art", "Thy", "Thee" and "Thou" in the Lord's Prayer because both Koine and modern Greek have both a formal and informal form of address for the second person. The informal form is singular while the formal form is plural. In the Gospel, Christ uses the informal, singular form in the Lord's Prayer, so they are translated as "is" and "Your". We do use "Thee", "Thy" and "Thou" in other translated prayers because the original Greek uses the formal, plural form of address. The verb to be also has a plural, formal form, in which case, we use "art", but it is singular informal in the Lord's prayer.
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« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2008, 10:19:51 AM »

At least in the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, this is the answer to the questions posed:

Quote
Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name.
Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread;
and forgive us our trespasses
as we forgive those who trespass against us;
and lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.

I will say that there has been some considerable discussion regarding whether the last word should be 'evil' or 'Evil One'.

I do know that ultimately the answer has been that the Bishops have authorized this translation, and as long as you are in the GOAA, this is the translation to be used.

 Smiley

That's interesting, because in the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Australia's english prayer book, it is translated as "evil one"- and this is how it is translated in our English Liturgy.

I agree! There is considerable weight of evidence to indicate that 'Evil One' should be used. But, through regular iteration of such points, ultimately I have heard in response the following:

Quote
the Bishops have authorized this translation, and as long as you are in the GOAA, this is the translation to be used.

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« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2008, 11:11:06 AM »

I may be mistaken about giving credit to Metropolitan Kalistos on saying this about the Lord's Prayer but after pointing out all of the little mistranslations we use, hitting heavy on the fact that it is "Evil One," he went on to say that here in America the Lord's Prayer is the only prayer that all the Orthodox can say together, even with all the mistranslations, and therefore we should just keep using until such a time that a change can be made across the board.
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« Reply #11 on: November 13, 2008, 11:16:01 AM »

Quote
The informal form is singular while the formal form is plural. In the Gospel, Christ uses the informal, singular form in the Lord's Prayer, so they are translated as "is" and "Your". We do use "Thee", "Thy" and "Thou" in other translated prayers because the original Greek uses the formal, plural form of address. The verb to be also has a plural, formal form, in which case, we use "art", but it is singular informal in the Lord's prayer.

This doesn't make sense. "Thou", "thee", and so on are singular and informal. It is "You" that is formal.
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« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2008, 12:05:26 PM »

I've always preferred the King James version of the prayer.  It's the one I learned, it's poetic, and "debts" flows over the tongue while "trespasses" is a tongue-twister.
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« Reply #13 on: November 13, 2008, 02:25:16 PM »

In Reponse to Reply #2 and #3.

According to the handout I received (The Priest who authored the handout has since left for the Air Force Chaplaincy Program):

Quote
Poniru is a bit trickier.  Poniros means "evil, bad, eicked, sinful."  Maybe you once rode a bad pony.  Literally, the Greek says "but deliver us from the evil" because in Greek the definite article, "the," is often used for abstract concepts.
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« Reply #14 on: November 13, 2008, 02:55:29 PM »

I've always preferred the King James version of the prayer.  It's the one I learned, it's poetic, and "debts" flows over the tongue while "trespasses" is a tongue-twister.


Not to me - debts/debtors sounds abrupt to me, while trespasses flows nicely.
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« Reply #15 on: November 13, 2008, 03:16:27 PM »

I've always preferred the King James version of the prayer.  It's the one I learned, it's poetic, and "debts" flows over the tongue while "trespasses" is a tongue-twister.


Not to me - debts/debtors sounds abrupt to me, while trespasses flows nicely.

^I find it easier to sing "trespasses" as well.
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« Reply #16 on: November 13, 2008, 03:39:56 PM »

I wonder if the Antiochians have an official position. Anyone know?
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« Reply #17 on: November 13, 2008, 03:54:50 PM »

From what I've been told it should read "deliver us from the evil one."  In the Ukrainian Orthodox Church USA Ecumenical Patriarchate prayer book the Our Father is written "deliver us from the evil one." 
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« Reply #18 on: November 14, 2008, 08:08:44 PM »

Does Australia retain the "art," "Thy" and "Thou?"  I've notice that those who go to "are," "your" and "You" feel less defference to KJV and BCP wording. 
We don't use "art", "Thy", "Thee" and "Thou" in the Lord's Prayer because both Koine and modern Greek have both a formal and informal form of address for the second person. The informal form is singular while the formal form is plural. In the Gospel, Christ uses the informal, singular form in the Lord's Prayer, so they are translated as "is" and "Your". We do use "Thee", "Thy" and "Thou" in other translated prayers because the original Greek uses the formal, plural form of address. The verb to be also has a plural, formal form, in which case, we use "art", but it is singular informal in the Lord's prayer.
That's interesting, because in early modern English, thee, thou, and thy were singular informal and you, ye, and your were plural formal.
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« Reply #19 on: November 14, 2008, 08:18:59 PM »

That's interesting, because in early modern English, thee, thou, and thy were singular informal and you, ye, and your were plural formal.
I know, but in the Greek, the plural is used as the formal address for a single Second Person, and since there is no formal address for the second person in modern English, it is translated as "Thee".
Greek, I'm afraid, is all about context! The opening words of St. John's Gospel, ("In the beginning was the Logos"), if taken out of context, could read "The General was in the body of the Army"!
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« Reply #20 on: November 14, 2008, 08:24:01 PM »

^ Ack. Greek makes my brain hurt.
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« Reply #21 on: November 15, 2008, 07:16:32 AM »

Greek, I'm afraid, is all about context! The opening words of St. John's Gospel, ("In the beginning was the Logos"), if taken out of context, could read "The General was in the body of the Army"!

ozgeorge, tsk tsk. You are conflating logos (word) with lokhos (company of soldiers). Nothing to do with context, my friend. And to get General out of arkhin is also a stretch: the best you could do is arkhon (leader, nobleman). As Groucho Marx once said, in the famous Hungadunga spiel in Horsefeathers: "You better brush up on your Greek, Jameson. Well, get a Greek and brush up on him!"
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« Reply #22 on: November 15, 2008, 09:43:31 AM »

ozgeorge, tsk tsk. You are conflating logos (word) with lokhos (company of soldiers). Nothing to do with context, my friend. And to get General out of arkhin is also a stretch: the best you could do is arkhon (leader, nobleman). As Groucho Marx once said, in the famous Hungadunga spiel in Horsefeathers: "You better brush up on your Greek, Jameson. Well, get a Greek and brush up on him!"

Before I respond to this, I'm going to give you a chance to check up on your facts.  Wink
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« Reply #23 on: November 15, 2008, 10:43:51 AM »

2.  The first one - evil
SolEX01,
The "evil one" is more correct. Matthew 6:13 reads: "απο του πονηρου", "from the evil one".
If it was "from evil", it would be "απο τα πονηρα", or "απο τo πονηρo".

I have to disagree.  "Απο" always takes an object in the genative.  The word "one" is only implied when the word "πονηρου" is assumed to be substantival adjective and therefore could be translated as "evil one" thought not as a strict translating rule; but if we assume it to be a noun then it should be translated just as "evil."
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« Reply #24 on: November 15, 2008, 11:10:36 AM »

Regarding saying "trespasses" or "debts" we must consider that St. Matthew's account and St. Luke's account differ in their wording.  This is not to say that the two gospels dissagree, but rather that our Lord told His disciples more than once how to pray.

Matthew 6:12 reads: και αφες ημιν τα οφειληματα ημων ως και ημεις αφιεμεν τοις οφειλεταις ημων
debts and indebted here would be the proper translation

Luke 11:4 reads:  και αφες ημιν τας αμαρτιας ημων και γαρ αυτοι αφιεμεν παντι οφειλοντι ημιν
sins and indebted are more proper here.
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« Reply #25 on: November 15, 2008, 12:31:57 PM »

^ Referencing the same handout, the word ofilimata is correctly translated as debts or "things you owe"; However, based on what Jesus told the Disciples in Matthew 6:14-15, Jesus no longer talked about financial obligations but actual trespasses/sins.  The proper way to recall the translation of ofilimata would be to say: "I feel that I owe you something."
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« Reply #26 on: November 15, 2008, 12:43:37 PM »


That's interesting, because in early modern English, thee, thou, and thy were singular informal and you, ye, and your were plural formal.

Perhaps it's because in modern English today, thee's and thou's are always thought to be VERY formal by almost everyone (at least in North America) while you and your, is always thought to be informal?  (of course I'm not talking about people with PhD's in English Smiley) Maybe because the context of thees and thous has been flipped flopped since say 200 years ago, it's now more appropriate to use Your, instead of thy? Just a thought.

I have no problems BTW with thees and thous for the Lord's Prayer, and for the sake of unity I like the translation settled upon by the GOA, because that's the same translation Catholics, many Lutherans and I suppose Anglicans use. It's kind of nice to see visitors who aren't Orthodox be able to join in with Lord's Prayer and not be thrown off by a different translation. Everyone basically knows this version the GOA is using, (my mom who was raised Catholic but lapsed after Vatican II still knows the Lord's Prayer, and its the same one we use in the GOA) So I do kind of prefer it for that reason alone.

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« Reply #27 on: November 15, 2008, 01:09:08 PM »

Thee's and Thou's only became formal when they dropped out of normal usage.  When they were part of normal speach they were neither formal or informal.  We retain them in biblical usage because of the failure of modern English to differentiate between 2nd person plural and singular.
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« Reply #28 on: November 15, 2008, 01:54:10 PM »

Thee's and Thou's only became formal when they dropped out of normal usage.  When they were part of normal speach they were neither formal or informal.  We retain them in biblical usage because of the failure of modern English to differentiate between 2nd person plural and singular.

And, of course, what makes it confusing in translation is that the formal second person pronoun is plural in Greek, so if we were transliterating, we would refer to God a "Ye". It's so messy!
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« Reply #29 on: November 15, 2008, 02:18:28 PM »

Thee's and Thou's only became formal when they dropped out of normal usage.  When they were part of normal speach they were neither formal or informal.
Not true, actually; due to the influence of French, ye and you were used as a formal singular. In fact, it was this practice that caused you to become the standard for both singular and plural.

Quote
We retain them in biblical usage because of the failure of modern English to differentiate between 2nd person plural and singular.
Around here we can: you is singular and y'all is plural.
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« Reply #30 on: November 15, 2008, 02:41:35 PM »

Thee's and Thou's only became formal when they dropped out of normal usage.  When they were part of normal speach they were neither formal or informal.
Not true, actually; due to the influence of French, ye and you were used as a formal singular. In fact, it was this practice that caused you to become the standard for both singular and plural.

Yes, but this was not until "late middle" or "early modern" English, and the time of "Great vowel shift"

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« Reply #31 on: November 15, 2008, 03:03:40 PM »


Around here we can: you is singular and y'all is plural.

Maybe in MO, but I'm told in Texas it is "y'all" and "all y'all" respectively.
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« Reply #32 on: November 15, 2008, 03:34:37 PM »


Around here we can: you is singular and y'all is plural.

Maybe in MO, but I'm told in Texas it is "y'all" and "all y'all" respectively.
I have family in Irving, so I can say with certainty that this is correct. Grin
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« Reply #33 on: November 15, 2008, 03:55:18 PM »


Around here we can: you is singular and y'all is plural.

Maybe in MO, but I'm told in Texas it is "y'all" and "all y'all" respectively.
I have family in Irving, so I can say with certainty that this is correct. Grin

I think I heard this from my sister, who lived in Houston and Austin for several years.
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« Reply #34 on: November 15, 2008, 06:24:58 PM »

What are the consequences (if any) that follow the debate of "Tresspasses" vs "Debts"?  I remember when I was Presbyterian it was debts, it was the only form we used.  When I became Anglican,  tresspasses was used.  I head several preachers speak on the subject, some deeming it more proper to use debts, espousing that we owe God so much that it cannot be repayed, and the others tresspasses, saying how often we step over the line or miss the mark.

Now, in the Antiochian translation, we use tresspasses.  But is there anything contoversial about the use of either translation?
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« Reply #35 on: November 15, 2008, 07:53:07 PM »

Quote
Maybe in MO, but I'm told in Texas it is "y'all" and "all y'all" respectively.

It's a common joke, but not true. I was born and grew up in Texas, and have spent less than three weeks of my life outside its borders, and other than using "y'all" to a person standing in for a larger organization (such as a store clerk), I have never in my life heard someone use "y'all" as singular.
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« Reply #36 on: November 16, 2008, 12:46:00 AM »

What are the consequences (if any) that follow the debate of "Tresspasses" vs "Debts"?  I remember when I was Presbyterian it was debts, it was the only form we used.  When I became Anglican,  tresspasses was used.  I head several preachers speak on the subject, some deeming it more proper to use debts, espousing that we owe God so much that it cannot be repayed, and the others tresspasses, saying how often we step over the line or miss the mark.

Now, in the Antiochian translation, we use tresspasses.  But is there anything contoversial about the use of either translation?
I think, regardless of the translation, we have to keep context in mind; a debt, or something which we owe, is something which we are accountable for, and in this context, sins, debts and trespasses all convey the same idea in English.  As long as we keep in mind that the "debts" spoken of are our sins and that we shop forgive also those who have sinned against us, then we have the proper understanding.

I don't think that any of these translations are contraversial; I think they're all reasonable.
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« Reply #37 on: November 16, 2008, 12:49:29 AM »

^ Referencing the same handout, the word ofilimata is correctly translated as debts or "things you owe"; However, based on what Jesus told the Disciples in Matthew 6:14-15, Jesus no longer talked about financial obligations but actual trespasses/sins.  The proper way to recall the translation of ofilimata would be to say: "I feel that I owe you something."
Sorry I overlooked this reply.

I agree with you on the meaning, but I'm not sure what you're getting at in the last sentence, it sounds overly interpretive and doesn't meet the grammatical structure of the verses.
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« Reply #38 on: November 16, 2008, 01:40:59 AM »

Sorry I overlooked this reply.

I agree with you on the meaning, but I'm not sure what you're getting at in the last sentence, it sounds overly interpretive and doesn't meet the grammatical structure of the verses.

I'm not the author of the handout.  Matthew 6:14-15 is provided below:

14 “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Quoting from the handout verbatim:

Quote
... Jesus wanted to give it a new meaning.  So when we're talking about ofilimata, "debts" is a literal translation and "transgressions" is Jesus' theological re-interpretation.

The sentence you quoted about "owing you something" immediately follows the quoted text.  The grammatical structure is absolutely fine until Jesus provides the re-interpretation of debts as transgressions.
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« Reply #39 on: November 16, 2008, 01:51:43 AM »

Quote
Maybe in MO, but I'm told in Texas it is "y'all" and "all y'all" respectively.

It's a common joke, but not true. I was born and grew up in Texas, and have spent less than three weeks of my life outside its borders, and other than using "y'all" to a person standing in for a larger organization (such as a store clerk), I have never in my life heard someone use "y'all" as singular.
Depending on what part of the South a person lives in.  In the Deep South and parts of the Uppland South, it's "y'all" and "all 'y'all".  In OK, southern MO and south eastern KY, you'll hear both used.  
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« Reply #40 on: November 16, 2008, 10:30:43 AM »

Greek, I'm afraid, is all about context! The opening words of St. John's Gospel, ("In the beginning was the Logos"), if taken out of context, could read "The General was in the body of the Army"!
ozgeorge, tsk tsk. You are conflating logos (word) with lokhos (company of soldiers). Nothing to do with context, my friend. And to get General out of arkhin is also a stretch: the best you could do is arkhon (leader, nobleman). As Groucho Marx once said, in the famous Hungadunga spiel in Horsefeathers: "You better brush up on your Greek, Jameson. Well, get a Greek and brush up on him!"

Before I respond to this, I'm going to give you a chance to check up on your facts.  Wink

OK, time’s up!
I shall now show you that you are wrong.

The opening passage of the Gospel of St. John is:
“εν αρχη ην ο λογος”
and I stated that if you take this phrase out of it’s context, it could be translated as “the general was in the body of the army”, which you denied. This denial, I believe, is based on a rudimentary knowledge of Greek which I hope I can correct.
Firstly, you are mistaken if you think this alternate translation of the phrase is based on the word “αρχη” being translated as “General”. It is actually translated as “the body of troops”. This is quite simple to prove as follows:

If you pick up the Septuagint and read 1Kings 13:17 the text reads:
“και εξηλθεν διαφθειρων εξ αγρου αλλοφυλων τρισιν αρχαις η αρχη η μια επιβλεπουσα οδον γοφερα επι γην σωγαλ”
Note the bolded word in this passage: “αρχη”
The translation of 1Kings 13:17 is (again note the bold word ):
“and there came out of the camp of the Allophyles [Ed: "Phillistines" in the KJV] a raiding party in three companies; one company closely observed the way of Gophera in the land of Sogal”.

Ok, so, “αρχη” in this passage translates as “company” as in “company of troops”.

Okie dokie, now let’s look at “λογος”.
“λογος” can mean “word of command”, for example, if we look at Exodus 34:28 in the Septuagint, we read:
 “και ην εκει μωυσης εναντιον κυριου τεσσαρακοντα ημερας και τεσσαρακοντα νυκτας αρτον ουκ εφαγεν και υδωρ ουκ επιεν και εγραψεν τα ρηματα ταυτα επι των πλακων της διαθηκης τους δεκα λογους
Again, note the bold word.

The translation of Exodus 34:28 is (again note the bold word ):
“And Moses was there before the Lord for forty days and forty nights. He did not eat bread nor did he drink water, and he wrote these words (ρηματα) on the tablets of the Covenant, the Ten Commandments.”

So a “λογος” (without the definite article "o") can be understood, in this context to be a “Command”.
As you might know often happens in Greek, titles are ascribed by personification, that is a person’s title is ascribed using a noun which describes their position or area of authority rather than their person. For example, the “treasurer” responsible for public accounts was once called “o δημόσιος λογος” (Inscriptiones Creticae Septentrionalis Euxini, ed B Latyshev, Petersburg,  2;29A). So, if “λογος” can be understood to mean a “Command”, then “ο λογος” (with the definite article "o") can be understood as the personification of the command (i.e., “the Commander”). And indeed, the pre-Socratic Greek philosopher, Protagoras, is called “ο λογος” by Plato in The Republic, who credits him with having invented the role of the professional sophist or teacher of virtue.

So, if we take our original opening phrase from the Gospel of John out of it’s context: “εν αρχη ην ο λογος” and if we apply the context of an army, then “αρχη” would mean “the body of the troops” as it does in 1Kings 13:17 (LXX), and “ο λογος” could be understood as “the commander general”. Hence we would translate the phrase as “in the (midst)  of the body of  the troops was the General”.

So the next time you decide to insult the intelligence of others, I suggest you attain a more thorough knowledge of the Greek language first, lest you end up with egg on you own face.  Smiley
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« Reply #41 on: November 16, 2008, 01:57:34 PM »

Sorry I overlooked this reply.

I agree with you on the meaning, but I'm not sure what you're getting at in the last sentence, it sounds overly interpretive and doesn't meet the grammatical structure of the verses.

I'm not the author of the handout.  Matthew 6:14-15 is provided below:

14 “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Quoting from the handout verbatim:

Quote
... Jesus wanted to give it a new meaning.  So when we're talking about ofilimata, "debts" is a literal translation and "transgressions" is Jesus' theological re-interpretation.

The sentence you quoted about "owing you something" immediately follows the quoted text.  The grammatical structure is absolutely fine until Jesus provides the re-interpretation of debts as transgressions.


I'm not sure what hand-out you're talking about.  What I was talking about when I mentioned grammatical structure was that you were describing a noun as a verb.
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« Reply #42 on: November 16, 2008, 02:23:12 PM »

Greek, I'm afraid, is all about context! The opening words of St. John's Gospel, ("In the beginning was the Logos"), if taken out of context, could read "The General was in the body of the Army"!
ozgeorge, tsk tsk. You are conflating logos (word) with lokhos (company of soldiers). Nothing to do with context, my friend. And to get General out of arkhin is also a stretch: the best you could do is arkhon (leader, nobleman). As Groucho Marx once said, in the famous Hungadunga spiel in Horsefeathers: "You better brush up on your Greek, Jameson. Well, get a Greek and brush up on him!"

Before I respond to this, I'm going to give you a chance to check up on your facts.  Wink

OK, time’s up!
I shall now show you that you are wrong.

The opening passage of the Gospel of St. John is:
“εν αρχη ην ο λογος”
and I stated that if you take this phrase out of it’s context, it could be translated as “the general was in the body of the army”, which you denied. This denial, I believe, is based on a rudimentary knowledge of Greek which I hope I can correct.
Firstly, you are mistaken if you think this alternate translation of the phrase is based on the word “αρχη” being translated as “General”. It is actually translated as “the body of troops”. This is quite simple to prove as follows:

If you pick up the Septuagint and read 1Kings 13:17 the text reads:
“και εξηλθεν διαφθειρων εξ αγρου αλλοφυλων τρισιν αρχαις η αρχη η μια επιβλεπουσα οδον γοφερα επι γην σωγαλ”
Note the bolded word in this passage: “αρχη”
The translation of 1Kings 13:17 is (again note the bold word ):
“and there came out of the camp of the Allophyles [Ed: "Phillistines" in the KJV] a raiding party in three companies; one company closely observed the way of Gophera in the land of Sogal”.

Ok, so, “αρχη” in this passage translates as “company” as in “company of troops”.

Okie dokie, now let’s look at “λογος”.
“λογος” can mean “word of command”, for example, if we look at Exodus 34:28 in the Septuagint, we read:
 “και ην εκει μωυσης εναντιον κυριου τεσσαρακοντα ημερας και τεσσαρακοντα νυκτας αρτον ουκ εφαγεν και υδωρ ουκ επιεν και εγραψεν τα ρηματα ταυτα επι των πλακων της διαθηκης τους δεκα λογους
Again, note the bold word.

The translation of Exodus 34:28 is (again note the bold word ):
“And Moses was there before the Lord for forty days and forty nights. He did not eat bread nor did he drink water, and he wrote these words (ρηματα) on the tablets of the Covenant, the Ten Commandments.”

So a “λογος” (without the definite article "o") can be understood, in this context to be a “Command”.
As you know often happens in Greek, titles are ascribed by personification, that is a person’s title is ascribed using a noun which describes their position or area of authority rather than their person. For example, the “treasurer” responsible for public accounts was once called the “o δημόσιος λογος” (Inscriptiones Creticae Septentrionalis Euxini, ed B Latyshev, Petersburg,  2;29A). So, if “λογος” can be understood to mean a “Command”, then “ο λογος” (with the definite article "o") can be understood as the personification of the command (i.e., “the Commander”). And indeed, the pre-Socratic Greek philosopher, Protagoras, is called “ο λογος” by Plato in The Republic, who credits him with having invented the role of the professional sophist or teacher of virtue.

So, if we take our original opening phrase from the Gospel of John out of it’s context: “εν αρχη ην ο λογος” and if we apply the context of an army, then “αρχη” would mean “the body of the troops” as it does in 1Kings 13:17 (LXX), and “ο λογος” could be understood as “the commander general”. Hence we would translate the phrase as “in the (midst)  of the body of  the troops was the General”.

So the next time you decide to insult the intelligence of others, I suggest you attain a more thorough knowledge of the Greek language first, lest you end up with egg on you own face.  Smiley

Nice.  You'd make a great Calvinist!   Grin
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« Reply #43 on: November 16, 2008, 02:27:15 PM »

Nice.  You'd make a great Calvinist!   Grin
Bite your tongue!  Cheesy
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« Reply #44 on: November 16, 2008, 02:40:05 PM »

I'm not sure what hand-out you're talking about.  What I was talking about when I mentioned grammatical structure was that you were describing a noun as a verb.

A former Priest in my community prepared a 12 page handout on translating the Lord's Prayer from Greek to English.  Said handout was discussed at a Young Adults Meeting earlier this year.  I quoted from this handout in earlier posts.

There are no nouns being described as verbs.  I'm not clear where the statement originated.   Huh
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« Reply #45 on: November 16, 2008, 06:05:48 PM »

There are no nouns being described as verbs.  I'm not clear where the statement originated.   Huh
I think Marc is referring to your translating the noun "ofeilimata" as the verb "I feel I owe".
I think you are actually both right in a way.
The word used in the Lord's prayer for "transgressions/debts" in Greek is "οφειλήματα" ("ofeilimata") which is actually best translated as "indebtednesses" rather than "debts". T
he word for "debts" is "οφλεματα" ("oflemata"). So the verb "I feel I owe" describes the noun "indebtedness" quite well.
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« Reply #46 on: November 16, 2008, 06:16:53 PM »

^ Alternatively, "I am indebted to you" describes the Parable of the 10,000 Talents.  We know that the Parable describes the Last Judgment where the Master forgave the Servant's Big debt and the Servant couldn't forgive a Small debt.
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« Reply #47 on: November 16, 2008, 06:27:18 PM »

^ But it only describes it because again, in the parable of the 10,000 talents, Our Lord uses the same word: "οφειλετης" (one who is indebted) rather than "οφλεμα" ("debt").
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« Reply #48 on: November 16, 2008, 06:49:46 PM »

So, we're in agreement?   Smiley
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« Reply #49 on: November 16, 2008, 07:34:15 PM »

So, we're in agreement?   Smiley
Yes, absolutely, but I thought it was important to make clear to Marc why "ofeileia" ("indebtedness") is different to "oflema" ("debt"). The former, as you say, carries the sense of "I feel I owe".
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« Reply #50 on: November 16, 2008, 09:34:12 PM »

Yes, that was my only issue.  We clearly have the same understanding of the verse, but I thought you were trying to get at something else.  The definition "I feel I owe you" better describes the verbal cognate, however, all derivatives in the passage are substantive (nouns).  There really is no issue.  I apologize if I came across as confrontational.
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« Reply #51 on: November 16, 2008, 11:00:39 PM »

Ok, here's another Our Father question: which is more correct...

Our Father, who art in the heavens
or
Our Father, who art in heaven



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« Reply #52 on: November 16, 2008, 11:10:59 PM »

Ok, here's another Our Father question: which is more correct...

Our Father, who art in the heavens
or
Our Father, who art in heaven

Technically, "the Heavens" (plural).
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« Reply #53 on: November 16, 2008, 11:30:56 PM »

Asteriktos,
Here is a literal translation of the Lord's Prayer as it is prayed in Koine. This is my own translation, so don't take it as Gospel (excuse the pun).
Perhaps others may like to critique, correct, add or subtract from it.

Our Father,
The One Who is in the Heavens (plural),
May Thy Name be hallowed,
May Thy Kingdom come,
May Thy Will be done as in Heaven (singular), so on Earth.
The bread of our subsistence, give us today,
And lay aside (remit) us our indebtednesses
As we remit the ones indebted to us
And do not lead us into trial (discipline by provocation)
But release us from the evil one.

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« Reply #54 on: November 17, 2008, 05:34:35 AM »

And do not lead us into trial (discipline by provocation)

George this is truly fascinating. Interesting that temptation is used the linguistic shift of that word must be the reason for the difference in understanding.
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« Reply #55 on: November 17, 2008, 09:33:03 AM »

Literal

πατερ    ημων      ο     εν τοις ουρανοις
Father of ours who (is) in  the  heavens

We must also consider the flexible use of the article in Greek and composite nature of plural concepts.  Is τοις ουρανοις a proper name or just the "the heavens" which also includes the sky?

So a proper translation of πατερ ημων ο εν τοις ουρανοις from a strictly linguistic point of view is also "Our Father who is in Heaven."

Context and theological leanings are the key to translation.
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« Reply #56 on: November 17, 2008, 09:41:15 AM »

And do not lead us into trial (discipline by provocation)

George this is truly fascinating. Interesting that temptation is used the linguistic shift of that word must be the reason for the difference in understanding.
G3986
πειρασμός
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pi-ras-mos'
From G3985; a putting to proof (by experiment [of good], experience [of evil], solicitation, discipline or provocation); by implication adversity: - temptation, X try.

The use of trial should be understood as testing as in an experiment, not as a legal proceeding, although they both draw their meaning from the same root.  Again, according to theological leanings, temptation is the trial.
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« Reply #57 on: November 17, 2008, 02:05:26 PM »

I wonder if the Antiochians have an official position. Anyone know?

The Antiochians officially use the prayer with  "deliver us from evil" as in the King James English preferred by Elizabeth Hapgood translations which are the foundatioon for the Antiochian jurisdictional English translation for liturgical and other prayer books.  There are many in the Antiochian Church, primarily converts, but some from Slavic influenced parishes who utilize  "deliver us from the evil one." My impression is most the Arabic parishes when English is used, use the "deliver us from evil".

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« Reply #58 on: November 17, 2008, 05:56:06 PM »

Context and theological leanings are the key to translation.
Absolutely! As I have tried to point out on this thread already in this post. Otherwise, the Creed would include something about the General being in the midst of the troops! Cheesy
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« Reply #59 on: November 17, 2008, 07:14:02 PM »

^^That's the problem with Sola Scriptura, if you take the tradition out, you can make the scriptures read what ever ou want them to.
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« Reply #60 on: November 17, 2008, 08:55:26 PM »

^^That's the problem with Sola Scriptura, if you take the tradition out, you can make the scriptures read what ever ou want them to.

I think we've just discovered the best argument against sola scriptura!
Outside of the context of the Church, the Fathers, the language, the Scriptures can mean anything.
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