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Author Topic: Should I be with a woman who has given herself to other men?  (Read 6234 times) Average Rating: 0
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Mexican
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« on: November 21, 2008, 08:50:02 PM »

Hello

I didn't know where to post this question, which might probably surprise you but I really don't know what to do.

The story is kinda complicated. I met this girl in a country of Eastern Europe 2 years ago. We broke up in first place because she lied and I learnt she gave herself to another man so when I went back there, I met a different girl who was indeed decent but that didn't work out as she only wanted my money (which I don't have). Then I reconciled with the first girl until one day when she left me for another man (the same day my grandmother had died in Mexico and I was devastated). I said to myself I would never forgive her again for this. But recently she appeared again and said that the other guy had just "used her" for you know what and that she wanted to be with me again. I had somehow forgot that I promised myself not to forgive her and started talking to her again.

I had never felt hatred in my soul (I have always felt a lot of antipathy for Protestant sects but not really hate) until now. When I think about these men I really feel hate and I wish they could be brutally punished for what they did. But on the contrary they have such happy lives, if they knew me they would be laughing at me.

The thing that makes me feel worse is that she had an active part with this, that she agreed with such men, that she experienced pleasure with those men and that it's an ilusion to think that "they took advantage of her" because I know her quite well. She says she loves me and I know that one of the important things that Christ taught is to forgive, but I don't really see a true and perfect contrition for what she did. I don't really think she regrets what she did. She probably feels no need for it because her values are certainly not the same as mine.

I really can't understand the thinking of modern women, I just can't. And I guess it's pretty much the same everywhere.

I don't know what to do because I think I really like her and my mother wants to meet her and so on. I am afraid that if I break up with her again she will find another one and she will do things with him and then if I want to go back with her I will have to hate 3 or more men instead of only 2.

Another thing that makes me worried is that if someday we have a daughter I will not want her to become like her mother and I will always have to remove and correct the modern ideas and evil trends that she might learn from her.

I have realized that some aspects of the culture in Iran and the Muslim countries are actually quite good in spite of their false religion because things like the ones I mentioned previously do not normally happen in their societies.
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« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2008, 09:05:33 PM »

I really can't understand the thinking of modern women, I just can't. And I guess it's pretty much the same everywhere.

Amen!
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« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2008, 09:09:25 PM »

I certainly don't mean to dismiss what is to you a very serious personal problem, but my first impression upon reading this is that you should seek first the counsel of your priest/spiritual father and follow whatever advice he gives you before you share this information with an impersonal internet audience.
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« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2008, 09:17:51 PM »

Dear Peter

I'm now in a city where I can't have a normal contact with the priests. Of course that I will seek their counsel in a religious way when I am able to talk to them.

I was actually trying to know the opinions of the general people, the normal Christians, the people who live normal lives, given the fact that as they do not know me and do not know the other person, they will probably be impartial or not biased toward one or other opinion.

Thanks for your kind support
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« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2008, 09:33:05 PM »

Well, here's my opinion:

Your BIG problem, the one you should be spending more focus and time on in pleading for the mercy of God, is not to discern what He thinks is best for you and this other woman, but instead for you to not have 'hatred' you feel for these other men.

These bad feelings for others will destroy your soul, and if you do have a relationship with this woman, it will drag her down with you. Learning to love these people, despite what they may have done, is your most critical task.

The issue with the woman can wait until you no longer hate.

Just my $0.02.
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« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2008, 09:34:05 PM »

Dear Mexican,

I really, really feel your pain and the sad truth is that this type of behaviour is not restricted to modern women, but modern men as well, who have not given themselves fully to living according to Christ and His commands.

Please forgive me, but why must you date eastern european women? Why not find a nice girl of your own culture and values?  It's not at all necessary to go to Iran or some Muslim country to find godly, Christian women who are keeping themselves pure for their future husbands, just as Christian men do the same for their future wives.

Make sure you are living a godly life-one that is above reproach- and pray earnestly that God will send you a godly young lady who wants nothing but God's holy will for her life.

May the Lord help you and have mercy upon you!

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« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2008, 11:19:04 PM »

It seems that the problem is not so much that this woman has just been unfaithful or promiscuous but that she doesn't seem to care about you.  I don't want to sound harsh, but if she has left you on more than one occasion and come back after she's been lain aside then she's only using you.   It's not to say she couldn't repent and turn out to be a wonderful companion but in her current situation she's making up for feeling vulnerable by coming back to you because she thinks you're a guaranteed relationship.  Definitely pray for her, yourself, and the other men involved but I would also advise guarding your heart and not letting yourself get emotionally involved any further.

(As said by others, the advice of a priest would be best but hopefully the advice of a woman can help a little too!)  Smiley
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« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2008, 11:49:24 PM »

Dear Rosehip

It's not that I date only Eastern Europeans, but that I was actually in that country at that time and that's how I met these people.

Dear All

Regarding the priests, the Orthodox priests are from a monestery in the capital city and I can't really have much contact with them through Internet or phone. I am suposed to go there but due to work duties I have been unable to see the priest.

I did talk to a "Novus Ordo" priest friend of my family and he was like "just accept it, that's how life is, you should forgive her, no one is perfect, don't judge her, you just think about yourself, it isn't really a big deal in our times".

I talked to a Traditionalist Roman priest too, and he said that "it's good to hate sin, the things she did really deserve the wrath of God, you should stay away from public sinners like her" and he also added that I myself do not live and act according to the moral standards I hold.

There's a Coptic Church near where I live, and the priest is known for his holiness and excellent councel. May I see him too?

I'm not really "that" Ecumenical but I wanted to have the opinion of religious pastors.

Dear Fr. Chris

I understand that it's wrong to feel hate, and as I said, I had never ever had a feeling like that until now. I even confronted her and told her exactly that, that I had never felt hatred until I knew that she's been with these men. I know it's wrong, I don't want to hate them but I don't understand why people can't understand how it feels. I mean, it feels horrible to know that the woman you love has been with others and to live with this for the rest of your life in case I ever marry this woman.

Maybe this is a matter of culture, for the average American this is most likely not the case but I'm a "country boy" from a small city who grew up with his grandmother.
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« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2008, 11:57:54 PM »

Hello

I didn't know where to post this question, which might probably surprise you but I really don't know what to do.

The story is kinda complicated. I met this girl in a country of Eastern Europe 2 years ago. We broke up in first place because she lied and I learnt she gave herself to another man so when I went back there, I met a different girl who was indeed decent but that didn't work out as she only wanted my money (which I don't have). Then I reconciled with the first girl until one day when she left me for another man (the same day my grandmother had died in Mexico and I was devastated). I said to myself I would never forgive her again for this. But recently she appeared again and said that the other guy had just "used her" for you know what and that she wanted to be with me again. I had somehow forgot that I promised myself not to forgive her and started talking to her again.

I had never felt hatred in my soul (I have always felt a lot of antipathy for Protestant sects but not really hate) until now. When I think about these men I really feel hate and I wish they could be brutally punished for what they did. But on the contrary they have such happy lives, if they knew me they would be laughing at me.

The thing that makes me feel worse is that she had an active part with this, that she agreed with such men, that she experienced pleasure with those men and that it's an ilusion to think that "they took advantage of her" because I know her quite well. She says she loves me and I know that one of the important things that Christ taught is to forgive, but I don't really see a true and perfect contrition for what she did. I don't really think she regrets what she did. She probably feels no need for it because her values are certainly not the same as mine.

I really can't understand the thinking of modern women, I just can't. And I guess it's pretty much the same everywhere.

I don't know what to do because I think I really like her and my mother wants to meet her and so on. I am afraid that if I break up with her again she will find another one and she will do things with him and then if I want to go back with her I will have to hate 3 or more men instead of only 2.

Another thing that makes me worried is that if someday we have a daughter I will not want her to become like her mother and I will always have to remove and correct the modern ideas and evil trends that she might learn from her.

I have realized that some aspects of the culture in Iran and the Muslim countries are actually quite good in spite of their false religion because things like the ones I mentioned previously do not normally happen in their societies.

Personally, I would drop her like a rock. The best indicator of how someone will behave in the future is how they acted in the past. I couldn't trust a woman who cheated on me (and luckily, I have been blessed to never have experienced such a thing). This is just my two cents.
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« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2008, 02:45:56 PM »

It seems that the problem is not so much that this woman has just been unfaithful or promiscuous but that she doesn't seem to care about you.  I don't want to sound harsh, but if she has left you on more than one occasion and come back after she's been lain aside then she's only using you.   It's not to say she couldn't repent and turn out to be a wonderful companion but in her current situation she's making up for feeling vulnerable by coming back to you because she thinks you're a guaranteed relationship.  Definitely pray for her, yourself, and the other men involved but I would also advise guarding your heart and not letting yourself get emotionally involved any further.

(As said by others, the advice of a priest would be best but hopefully the advice of a woman can help a little too!)  Smiley

I agree.
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« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2008, 03:38:15 PM »

Really, Bono Vox? I was promiscuous in the past, but have wised up. Should I be judged for the sins of my past or should I be judged for how I act in the present age? If one gets to know me, they would see I am not the person I used to be. My parents didn't teach me to respect myself and to save myself for my future husband. You can't always judge someone from their past because people change. It is because people change that we practice forgiveness, because they do and because we hope they do. In the meantime, I think Mexican should follow EofK's advise and guard his heart the same way he would guard his chastity. Maybe he should even speak to her on her behavior. It might start her towards enlightenment of God. Smiley
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« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2008, 04:12:11 PM »

Personally, I would drop her like a rock. The best indicator of how someone will behave in the future is how they acted in the past. I couldn't trust a woman who cheated on me (and luckily, I have been blessed to never have experienced such a thing). This is just my two cents.

What about repentance?  How many saints have existed who acted contrarily to the will of our Lord and yet became great saints and pillars of repentance?  You are automatically assuming that she will not change (she may, she may not) which is not Christ like.  If she does, great for him and them together. 

I've done some horrible things in my past (which I will thankfully not get into) but thankfully people and our Lord have seen past those.
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« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2008, 04:28:39 PM »

You should forgive her. But that doesn't mean that you should continue the relationship romantically.
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« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2008, 04:51:43 PM »

Personally, I would drop her like a rock. The best indicator of how someone will behave in the future is how they acted in the past. I couldn't trust a woman who cheated on me (and luckily, I have been blessed to never have experienced such a thing). This is just my two cents.

What about repentance?  How many saints have existed who acted contrarily to the will of our Lord and yet became great saints and pillars of repentance?  You are automatically assuming that she will not change (she may, she may not) which is not Christ like.  If she does, great for him and them together. 

I've done some horrible things in my past (which I will thankfully not get into) but thankfully people and our Lord have seen past those.
Repentance is fine, but it would be foolish to enter a relationship with the view that you can change the other person. We enter relationships with people as they are, not as what we hope they will be in the future.
Bono Vox is right, the best predictor of future behaviour is past behaviour- this is actually behavioural science rather than just a homespun philosophy. I can't find it right now, but there was a study which compared a sample of psychologists' with a sample of statisticians' abilities to predict the future behaviour of individuals given their historical behaviour, and the statisticians far outdid the psychologists.
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« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2008, 05:07:49 PM »

[Repentance is fine, but it would be foolish to enter a relationship with the view that you can change the other person. We enter relationships with people as they are, not as what we hope they will be in the future.
Bono Vox is right, the best predictor of future behaviour is past behaviour- this is actually behavioural science rather than just a homespun philosophy. I can't find it right now, but there was a study which compared a sample of psychologists' with a sample of statisticians' abilities to predict the future behaviour of individuals given their historical behaviour, and the statisticians far outdid the psychologists.

I never suggested that he could change her.  Repentance does that because it is literally a "change of mind" a spiritual change.  Does that mean he should be with her?  Let him and her decide that. 

I would never consider repentance to be a homespun philosophy though.
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« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2008, 05:26:26 PM »

The story is kinda complicated. I met this girl in a country of Eastern Europe 2 years ago. We broke up in first place because she lied and I learnt she gave herself to another man so when I went back there, I met a different girl who was indeed decent but that didn't work out as she only wanted my money (which I don't have). Then I reconciled with the first girl until one day when she left me for another man (the same day my grandmother had died in Mexico and I was devastated). I said to myself I would never forgive her again for this. But recently she appeared again and said that the other guy had just "used her" for you know what and that she wanted to be with me again. I had somehow forgot that I promised myself not to forgive her and started talking to her again.

Something to consider...were you sleeping with her? If not, you can't really be to hard on her, I know if I'm with someone for a couple months and not getting any I'd leave them (in fact, recently did that, after about 2 weeks, not even a couple months). Perhaps you should take into account her needs and desires, rather than complaining about how you don't lie the manner in which she tends to yours.

Quote
Another thing that makes me worried is that if someday we have a daughter I will not want her to become like her mother and I will always have to remove and correct the modern ideas and evil trends that she might learn from her.

That's just despicable...my advice, find another woman, you won't be happy with her and she deserves better that that.
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« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2008, 05:28:52 PM »

I don't know what to do because I think I really like her and my mother wants to meet her and so on. I am afraid that if I break up with her again she will find another one and she will do things with him and then if I want to go back with her I will have to hate 3 or more men instead of only 2.
My impressions of this after having dealt with a similar issue in my life:  Until you are married, NO ONE can claim ownership of you--no one whatsoever.  You need to recognize that you have your own life to live, your own salvation to work out "with fear and trembling".  If someone else is trying to drag you down into her cesspool of self-pity by using you to fulfill her needs, you need to let her go live her own life and insist that she stop trying to make you a part of it.  If you end up finding someone with whom you can have a relationship that actually gives you BOTH strength to repent and pursue greater Christ-likeness, then you have found a wonderful woman indeed.  Don't throw this possibility away by attaching yourself so strongly to a woman who only wants to use you as she has used the other men in her life.
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« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2008, 05:32:29 PM »

I would never consider repentance to be a homespun philosophy though.
Is ozgeorge saying that repentance is impossible?  No, people CAN repent--repentance is always possible.  It's just that the statistical data he has studied give strong scientific evidence that most people WON'T, that it's probably best not to bet that someone will.
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« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2008, 05:41:07 PM »

I never suggested that he could change her.  Repentance does that because it is literally a "change of mind" a spiritual change. 
Assuming:
A) There is genuine repentance in the future.
B) There is no backsliding in the future.
I'm not a clairvoyant, you're not a clairvoyant, Mexican is not a clairvoyant, so all one can go on is the facts as they are, and the facts as they are:
1) The history of the person's behaviour
2) The fact that historical behaviour best predicts future behaviour.
Ignoring facts such as these is why people end up living with abusive spouses, alcoholics, philanderers etc. etc.
 

I would never consider repentance to be a homespun philosophy though.
Nor would I, but I have no idea why you brought that up.
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« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2008, 05:52:52 PM »

I don't know what to do because I think I really like her and my mother wants to meet her and so on. I am afraid that if I break up with her again she will find another one and she will do things with him and then if I want to go back with her I will have to hate 3 or more men instead of only 2.
My impressions of this after having dealt with a similar issue in my life:  Until you are married, NO ONE can claim ownership of you--no one whatsoever.  You need to recognize that you have your own life to live, your own salvation to work out "with fear and trembling".  If someone else is trying to drag you down into her cesspool of self-pity by using you to fulfill her needs, you need to let her go live her own life and insist that she stop trying to make you a part of it.  If you end up finding someone with whom you can have a relationship that actually gives you BOTH strength to repent and pursue greater Christ-likeness, then you have found a wonderful woman indeed.  Don't throw this possibility away by attaching yourself so strongly to a woman who only wants to use you as she has used the other men in her life.

Lots of good advice from many people here, but this is excellent. I had the same experience myself and rue the day that I allowed myself to become so utterly deluded. You expressed it so well, Peter.
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« Reply #20 on: November 22, 2008, 09:33:06 PM »

If you don't respect her, if your values are so different, then I don't see how you can be happy in the long run.  If she had been with other men but then repented, it would be different.



Hello

I didn't know where to post this question, which might probably surprise you but I really don't know what to do.

The story is kinda complicated. I met this girl in a country of Eastern Europe 2 years ago. We broke up in first place because she lied and I learnt she gave herself to another man so when I went back there, I met a different girl who was indeed decent but that didn't work out as she only wanted my money (which I don't have). Then I reconciled with the first girl until one day when she left me for another man (the same day my grandmother had died in Mexico and I was devastated). I said to myself I would never forgive her again for this. But recently she appeared again and said that the other guy had just "used her" for you know what and that she wanted to be with me again. I had somehow forgot that I promised myself not to forgive her and started talking to her again.

I had never felt hatred in my soul (I have always felt a lot of antipathy for Protestant sects but not really hate) until now. When I think about these men I really feel hate and I wish they could be brutally punished for what they did. But on the contrary they have such happy lives, if they knew me they would be laughing at me.

The thing that makes me feel worse is that she had an active part with this, that she agreed with such men, that she experienced pleasure with those men and that it's an ilusion to think that "they took advantage of her" because I know her quite well. She says she loves me and I know that one of the important things that Christ taught is to forgive, but I don't really see a true and perfect contrition for what she did. I don't really think she regrets what she did. She probably feels no need for it because her values are certainly not the same as mine.

I really can't understand the thinking of modern women, I just can't. And I guess it's pretty much the same everywhere.

I don't know what to do because I think I really like her and my mother wants to meet her and so on. I am afraid that if I break up with her again she will find another one and she will do things with him and then if I want to go back with her I will have to hate 3 or more men instead of only 2.

Another thing that makes me worried is that if someday we have a daughter I will not want her to become like her mother and I will always have to remove and correct the modern ideas and evil trends that she might learn from her.

I have realized that some aspects of the culture in Iran and the Muslim countries are actually quite good in spite of their false religion because things like the ones I mentioned previously do not normally happen in their societies.
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« Reply #21 on: November 22, 2008, 11:05:00 PM »

Really, Bono Vox? I was promiscuous in the past, but have wised up. Should I be judged for the sins of my past...

To be fair, Bono Vox said regarding future behavior is that past behavior is the best but not the only predictor.  Plus he added that he couldn't trust someone had they cheated on him in the past.  I think it'd be difficult for anyone to trust a person who betrayed us in the past. Undecided 
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« Reply #22 on: November 23, 2008, 12:11:34 AM »

I really can't understand the thinking of modern women, I just can't. And I guess it's pretty much the same everywhere.
BTW, what is your religion and what is the religion of your friend? This is just a wild guess, but it seems like you might be Catholic and she might be Orthodox? If that is true, then have you talked about marriage and raising children in a mixed marriage situation and how will the children be baptised and taught? Will you be staying in Eastern Europe, or do you plan to return to Mexico? Sometimes a small discussion can help.
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« Reply #23 on: November 23, 2008, 04:39:32 AM »

I agree with Bono Vox....Bro, drop her like a rock. You could do so much better! It's unlikely that someone with such a history of cheating multiple times such as hers will change. She probably has her eyes on other men all the time. I could never allow myself to be in such a relationship. Give her the boot and find someone that has some sense of honor and loyalty. If you prolong the inevitable, you may end up getting really hurt down the road. Just my .02 son!
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« Reply #24 on: November 23, 2008, 06:44:14 AM »

I understand where you're coming from, PTA and Gabriel. Plus, it's often hard to discern if a person is showing true repentence or is faking it.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2008, 06:44:32 AM by Myrrh23 » Logged

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« Reply #25 on: November 23, 2008, 09:40:29 AM »

You should forgive her. But that doesn't mean that you should continue the relationship romantically.

What Quinault said. That pretty much summarizes the matter, IMHO. Forgive and move on. Talk with her as openly as you can and make sure she cares about you. If she does not, sever all communication with her, it's not worth it.
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« Reply #26 on: November 23, 2008, 01:07:22 PM »

I think the title of the post is really misleading as the problem seems to be trust more that anything else. Things that belong to the past can stay there if we want to change, but this seems to be a different case. A person can have acted in one way in the past and struggling to change ever since (with the occasional slip now and then, we are humans after all). If this person still shows some emotional-sentimental instability and lack of constancy (forgive my perhaps inadequate terminology, I have been speaking and studying two to three different languages lately so I am mixing things up) then it is not exclusively the matter of religious principles that gives one doubts about going on with the relationship but rather the uncertainty as to why this person wants to have the relationship the trust and qualty of which he/she does much to undermine.

Mexican, I can see you probably care for this person a lot otherwise you would not be asking these questions(I also understand from your post that she is Protestant -could it be?). From what you describe it seems like she did not have her feelings about you very clear for long part of the relationship. I think this is the problem that affects you. Whether she has been with two or three men is only the consequence of this lack of clarity. She could very well be a person that is not physically that impulsive and still cause you hurt and spiritual damage if she kept leaving you and coming back to you everytime, even without the relationships on the side. I do not mean to reduce the importance of the relationships she had with these other guys, but it goes to show perhaps that you should make very clear what it is you feel towards each other and what your expectations are from your relationship as well as see a priest individually to sort out your thoughts and feelings and seek advice. My opinion - only an opinion - is the problem here is trust and the uncertainty of whether one´s being goaded (the Spanish term "torear" i think explains it better), lied to, deceived etc, not how many men she´s been with although the "why" of these relationships does count.

Forgive her, we are all weak to different degrees and depending what circumstances, forgive her for lying to you, her leaving you. There is nothing to forgive about what she did while she was not with you, this is something she will have to deal with. As for the principles by which you could potentially bring up your children, this is something between the two of you, but before having any children, you have to be sure you accept each other first as the individuals you are (saying that also for my ears  Tongue).
« Last Edit: November 23, 2008, 01:11:15 PM by Sophie » Logged

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