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Offline SouthSerb99

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Serbian Orthodox Church faces key decision
« on: November 10, 2008, 11:15:54 AM »
Serbian Orthodox Church faces key decision
     
Tanner Adam Tanner – Sat Nov 8, 9:16 pm ET BELGRADE (Reuters) – Four months after Serbia swore in a pro-Europe government in a move away from its nationalist past, the Serbian Orthodox Church is deciding whether to stick to its hardline course or become more moderate.

The new face of a church that has long defined Serbs' national identity will emerge after elders decide at a meeting on Tuesday whether to accept the resignation of ailing 94-year-old Patriarch Pavle and choose a successor.

If his resignation is accepted, a new patriarch will be chosen some time in the next three months.

"Now Serbia is after war, after bombing, now Serbia is a very normal democratic country and everything has changed in this country -- only not the church," said Zivica Tucic, the Belgrade-based editor of an independent publication on the church. "It was not possible with the old patriarch."

Patriarch Pavle was elected to the church's top position in 1990 during the dying days of Yugoslavia.

He presided as Serbs warred with neighbors during the 1990s in Croatia, Bosnia, Slovenia and Kosovo, with his priests often blessing soldiers heading to battle those from other religions.

Patriarch Pavle was the one who gave late Serbian leader Slobodan Milosevic the green light to negotiate an end to the 1992-95 Bosnian conflict on behalf of all Serbs.

Serbs, Croats and Bosnia's Muslims are divided by their religion -- Croats are mainly Catholic and Serbs are predominantly Orthodox. With the Balkan nations still sorting out their place in the world, religion has a big influence.

"The Serbian Orthodox Church still plays a major role in Serbian society," said Paul Mojzes, author of "Yugoslavian Inferno: Ethnoreligious Warfare in the Balkans."

He said the Church was likely to remain "highly visible" as long as Kosovo, which declared independence from Serbia on February 17, remained an issue and questions remained about the future of the Bosnian Serb half of Bosnia.

THREAT TO STABILITY?

These issues could still threaten peace in the Balkans at a time when Serbia needs stability to attract foreign investment and eventually join the European Union.

EU accession is a goal of the coalition government sworn in on July 7 after an election in which the pro-EU Democratic Party emerged as the largest party, suggesting voters want Serbia to take its place in the European mainstream.

Pavle stepped aside from running the Church earlier this year and nationalist Metropolitan Amfilohije Radovic became acting head.

"If the Metropolitan of Montenegro, Amfilohije, becomes patriarch, the church remains on the same hardline nationalistic course," said Vjekoslav Perica, author of "Balkan Idols: Religion and Nationalism in Yugoslav States."

"If he loses, the new Serbia as shown in the last elections becomes more likely. However, the Church will not change its line regarding Kosovo."

Kosovo is the cradle of the Serbian Orthodox Church and the Serbian nation.

Its independence has been recognized by the United States and other countries. But Serbia and historically Orthodox Russia and Greece are among those that refuse to recognize Kosovo, where more than 90 percent of people are ethnic Albanians.

"Serbia's whole history is there, it is its spiritual center," Amfilohije told Reuters in an interview last month.

The Orthodox bishop in Kosovo has ordered his priests not to talk to Albanian and international officials there for fear that this might suggest they recognize Kosovo's independence.

Mojzes expects the new patriarch will be able to influence Serbia's Kosovo policy.

"If a hard-liner becomes patriarch, then it (policy) will remain very confrontational," he said.

A more moderate candidate, he said, could shift the focus on to expanding the civil and religious liberties of Serbs who live in Kosovo.

OTHER CANDIDATES

Several others, including Metropolitan Nikolaj Mrdja in Bosnia, are seen as candidates.

"Several possible successors could lead the Serbian Orthodox Church into a much more rigid posture," said Mojzes, a Protestant U.S. scholar who grew up in Yugoslavia.

"This would likely be the case if Metropolitan Amfilohije ... were to be elected or a much more sophisticated, gentler posture if someone like Bishop Irinej Bulovic of Backa were to be elected."

Amfilohije, who estimates worldwide Serbian Orthodox membership at 9 to 10 million, denied the Church could have done more to avert the spread of the Balkan wars of the 1990s.

"During these war circumstances, including during the First and Second World Wars, the Church was also focused on tending to the suffering of the soul," he told Reuters at his headquarters in Cetinje, Montenegro.

"It does not support military activities but it helps people who are suffering."

Whoever becomes patriarch, change is unlikely to be fast.

"I don't expect straightforward changes in church policy," said Radmila Radic, a biographer of Patriarch Pavle. "The Church is a conservative, slow-changing institution.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20081109/wl_nm/us_serbia_church
-----------------------------------------------

I posted this article for no other reason to see the propaganda still be spun out against us and our Church.  The particularly amusing parts were highlighted.  The author basically suggests that if +Amfilohije is selected as the successor, he'll grab his gun and shoot some Muslims in the name of "hardline" Serbdom.

No discussion of the notion that Orthodoxy should not change its views on the whim of the western world. It's especially amusing that many inside Orthodoxy look to the SOC as a pillar of retaining our traditions in the face of a changing world.  In this article, the forces of fighting against our Church are certainly at work.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Serbian Orthodox Church faces key decision
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2008, 12:12:07 PM »
What kind of $%^&&**( is this about Patriarch Pavle?  He was one of the few voices against Milosevich and for peace.  Many years!
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Re: Serbian Orthodox Church faces key decision
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2008, 12:45:48 PM »
How do people get paid to write such dumb things?
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Re: Serbian Orthodox Church faces key decision
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2008, 02:12:02 PM »
Okay, can we agree that this was written by a liberal crackhead, who wants to see Serbia become a "modern" country, free of constraints and religion?

Obviously, they no nothing if His Holiness or anything about Orthodoxy.

Sad really.
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Offline SouthSerb99

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Re: Serbian Orthodox Church faces key decision
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2008, 02:47:02 PM »
Okay, can we agree that this was written by a liberal crackhead, who wants to see Serbia become a "modern" country, free of constraints and religion?

Well, I put this into the religious section to avoid "liberal crackhead" type comments so I suppose I'll let the mods handle it they way they see fit, as the appropriate response would be to state the obvious regarding Kosovo recognition.

The fact is, Serbia and the SOC is under attack, by whom and how is really irrelevant at this point.  The recognition of the attack is the point.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2008, 02:48:04 PM by SouthSerb99 »
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Re: Serbian Orthodox Church faces key decision
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2008, 02:55:45 PM »
...
"If the Metropolitan of Montenegro, Amfilohije, becomes patriarch, the church remains on the same hardline nationalistic course," said Vjekoslav Perica, author of "Balkan Idols: Religion and Nationalism in Yugoslav States."
...

If I were:

a) the first Bishop of Serbian Church ever who had obtained PhD after four-years post-graduate study at "Gregoriana" in Vatican (Jesuit University in Vatican)

b) the first Bishop of Serbian Church ever who had meet the Roman Pope (the other Bishop, Irinej (Bulovic) of Backa was, according to his own words, "a companion" / clever move of "the Foreign Minister" of SOC Irinej, particularly having in mind H.G Amphinoccio is a Montenegrin, and they don't like to be "the second")

I'd pay for such an article by pure gold.

BTW, isn't said somewhere that one of the tactics / methods of jesuits is to present themselves to naives standing for exactly the opposite from their real aims?
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Re: Serbian Orthodox Church faces key decision
« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2008, 03:04:17 PM »
How do people get paid to write such dumb things?

Various engagements through NGO channels on the projects funded by National Endowment for Democracy or some other Soros-funded vehicle. Also, varioius newly-established annual and ad hoc awards, whose winners in past years were regularly Eastern Europeans of alike attitude and with similar "achievements".
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Offline SouthSerb99

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Re: Serbian Orthodox Church faces key decision
« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2008, 03:10:14 PM »
If I were:

a) the first Bishop of Serbian Church ever who had obtained PhD after four-years post-graduate study at "Gregoriana" in Vatican (Jesuit University in Vatican)

b) the first Bishop of Serbian Church ever who had meet the Roman Pope (the other Bishop, Irinej (Bulovic) of Backa was, according to his own words, "a companion" / clever move of "the Foreign Minister" of SOC Irinej, particularly having in mind H.G Amphinoccio is a Montenegrin, and they don't like to be "the second")

I'd pay for such an article by pure gold.

BTW, isn't said somewhere that one of the tactics / methods of jesuits is to present themselves to naives standing for exactly the opposite from their real aims?

Interesting that +Artemije doesn't even warrant mention.
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Offline orthodoxlurker

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Re: Serbian Orthodox Church faces key decision
« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2008, 03:19:34 PM »
...
Interesting that +Artemije doesn't even warrant mention.

It is, isn't it?

H.G. Amfilohije, "a hardliner"! The first one who visited Roman Pope. "A hardliner"!

Njegos was in Rome. He was carried in the carriage when Roman Pope traversed, and all other carriages had to stop. As per local custom, everybody got out of all the carriages and saluted the carriage of Roman Pope. Only one carriage remained closed - the one where Njegos was sitting. The Roman Pope asked who was the one who hadn't got out to salute him, and, upon hearing that it was an Orthodox Bishop of Montenegro, ordered to bring him to him, in Vatican, but it was too late. Njegos had already left Rome.

H.G. Amfilohije, the first Serbian Bishop ever, and, in addition to that, a Montenegrin, who has visited Roman Pope. H.G. Irinej just "a companion". Back in 1993.

Njegos can't even turn in his grave. During Tito, they destroyed NJegos' Church on Lovcen, built a pyramide there, and placed a Roman Catholic Saint on top of Njegos grave.
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Re: Serbian Orthodox Church faces key decision
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2008, 03:26:43 PM »
What kind of $%^&&**( is this about Patriarch Pavle?  He was one of the few voices against Milosevich and for peace.  Many years!

A friend of mine is, I dare to say, His spiritual child. A kind of.

He brought her up by his prayers after the cancer surgery. More than a decade after amputation and under chemotherapy, her hair, skin and teeth are great. One couldn't believe. But I'm, as usual, a big mouth. That's the testimony she'll have to give, once the time comes.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2008, 03:38:19 PM by orthodoxlurker »
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Serbian Orthodox Church faces key decision
« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2008, 03:41:39 PM »
Well, I put this into the religious section to avoid "liberal crackhead" type comments

Could everyone please note this and remember that this thread is NOT in the private politics forum.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2008, 03:42:30 PM by ozgeorge »
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Offline SouthSerb99

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Re: Serbian Orthodox Church faces key decision
« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2008, 03:41:41 PM »
Brate,

I'm not exactly sure of the process to elect Patriarch Pavle's predecessor.  I read recently that the Synod pick 3 or 4 candidates and essentially "pick from a hat".  Is that true or is their voting or any reliable articles outlining the process.

Maybe Serb1389 knows the process if you don't.
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Offline orthodoxlurker

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Re: Serbian Orthodox Church faces key decision
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2008, 03:42:30 PM »
The whole point with "discharge" of a live Patriarch is that Belgrade Judas need someone who will cover their sell-out of Kosovo, so they can take their 30 silver coins smoothly. An ambitious person would be a suitable candidate for Patriarch.
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Re: Serbian Orthodox Church faces key decision
« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2008, 03:49:01 PM »
Brate,

I'm not exactly sure of the process to elect Patriarch Pavle's predecessor.  I read recently that the Synod pick 3 or 4 candidates and essentially "pick from a hat".  Is that true or is their voting or any reliable articles outlining the process.

Maybe Serb1389 knows the process if you don't.

There is the vote. Candidates are all bishops of active duty with more than five years of "practice". Each bishop votes for three candidates. If one candidate gets more than half of the votes (counting from the number of the bishops voting), he's elected. If there is no such one (and I guess it would be pretty clear to you it would be highly unlikely outcome, having in mind the system of election), three candidates with the highest number of votes are placed in the hat, and a monk (with no chances of becoming a bishop, ever) take one name from the hat.

At present, Fr. Ambrose doesn't have chances of being a candidate.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Serbian Orthodox Church faces key decision
« Reply #14 on: November 10, 2008, 04:07:36 PM »
Brate,

I'm not exactly sure of the process to elect Patriarch Pavle's predecessor.  I read recently that the Synod pick 3 or 4 candidates and essentially "pick from a hat".  Is that true or is their voting or any reliable articles outlining the process.

Maybe Serb1389 knows the process if you don't.

There is the vote. Candidates are all bishops of active duty with more than five years of "practice". Each bishop votes for three candidates. If one candidate gets more than half of the votes (counting from the number of the bishops voting), he's elected. If there is no such one (and I guess it would be pretty clear to you it would be highly unlikely outcome, having in mind the system of election), three candidates with the highest number of votes are placed in the hat, and a monk (with no chances of becoming a bishop, ever) take one name from the hat.

At present, Fr. Ambrose doesn't have chances of being a candidate.
Then how about him putting his hand in the hat? ;D
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Re: Serbian Orthodox Church faces key decision
« Reply #15 on: November 10, 2008, 04:20:26 PM »

Then how about him putting his hand in the hat? ;D

:D

It's still not sure if the "resignation" will be accepted.

Besides, let us place our hope in Holy Spirit. Fr. Ambrose may still become a bishop...a patriarch...a roman pope? :D

Or at least a Professor of Dogmatics at the Faculty of Theology in Belgrade?
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Re: Serbian Orthodox Church faces key decision
« Reply #16 on: November 11, 2008, 03:11:40 PM »
According to mass media in Serbian, the first day of the Council has ended without the consent on the Council's agenda, meaning the bishops has not reached the decision whether to vote on Patriarch's alleged "resignation", or to simply disregard that piece of paper of dubious origin.

BTW, I learned today that both HAH Bartholomew and HH Hieronimous of Athens ceased to commemorate Patriarch Pavle in their prayers, meaning Serbs and Greeks aren't in communion anymore.
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Offline Andrew21091

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Re: Serbian Orthodox Church faces key decision
« Reply #17 on: November 11, 2008, 10:41:21 PM »
According to mass media in Serbian, the first day of the Council has ended without the consent on the Council's agenda, meaning the bishops has not reached the decision whether to vote on Patriarch's alleged "resignation", or to simply disregard that piece of paper of dubious origin.

BTW, I learned today that both HAH Bartholomew and HH Hieronimous of Athens ceased to commemorate Patriarch Pavle in their prayers, meaning Serbs and Greeks aren't in communion anymore.

What, where did you hear this from? Why would they not be in communion anymore?

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Re: Serbian Orthodox Church faces key decision
« Reply #18 on: November 12, 2008, 03:32:28 AM »
...

BTW, I learned today that both HAH Bartholomew and HH Hieronimous of Athens ceased to commemorate Patriarch Pavle in their prayers, meaning Serbs and Greeks aren't in communion anymore.

What, where did you hear this from? Why would they not be in communion anymore?

There was a news in a Serbian newspaper that HAH Bartholomew and HH HIeronimous didn't mention Patriarch Pavle in their concelebration two weeks ago. An unnamed source from the seat of Church of Greece, upon the explicit question with that regard from a journalist, responded that Patriarch Pavle hasn't been commemorated since EP and GOC don't consider him to be the primate of Serbian Church anymore.

That appears to be premature, since the news are that the Council won't even take "the resignation" (which has meanwhile been transformed into "the plea for discharge") into Agenda. And "the resignation" has been announced by the favorite of EP, Metropolitan of Montenegro Amphilioque.

Therefore, there is no communion at present.
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Re: Serbian Orthodox Church faces key decision
« Reply #19 on: November 12, 2008, 04:02:57 AM »
Therefore, there is no communion at present.

Don't be ridiculous.
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Re: Serbian Orthodox Church faces key decision
« Reply #20 on: November 12, 2008, 05:31:27 AM »
Therefore, there is no communion at present.

Don't be ridiculous.

AFAIK, the communion is manifested by commemorating the primates of autocephalias by the primates of other autocaphalias.

The fact that Patriarch Pavle has not been mentioned, and that's confirmed to a journalist in the seat of Church of Greece, is manifesting there is no communion anymore. That regardless possible concelebration of other clergy, or receiving communion by laity.
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Re: Serbian Orthodox Church faces key decision
« Reply #21 on: November 12, 2008, 06:00:19 AM »
AFAIK, the communion is manifested by commemorating the primates of autocephalias by the primates of other autocaphalias.

The fact that Patriarch Pavle has not been mentioned, and that's confirmed to a journalist in the seat of Church of Greece, is manifesting there is no communion anymore. That regardless possible concelebration of other clergy, or receiving communion by laity.

First of all, His All Holiness Bartholomew does not head an Autocephaly, He heads a Patriarchate which has the authority to grant autocephaly to other Churches.

Secondly, journalists do not hold "seats" in the Church of Greece or any other Orthodox Church.

Thirdly, the Church of Greece is not under the jurisdiction of the Ecumenical Patriarchate, so who cares what a journalist who holds a non-existent "seat" in it says?

Fourthly, and most importantly, why on Earth would the Ecumenical Patriarchate want to break Communion with the Patriarchate of Serbia?
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Re: Serbian Orthodox Church faces key decision
« Reply #22 on: November 12, 2008, 06:09:18 AM »

First of all, His All Holiness Bartholomew does not head an Autocephaly, He heads a Patriarchate which has the authority to grant autocephaly to other Churches.


First of all, autocephalia can be either a Patriarchate, or to have another status, as in the case of the Church of Cyprus, which isn't Patriarchate, but is autocephalous.

Every other Patriarchate does have the right to grant autocephalia to any part of her, just like Antioch did in case of Georgia, Moscow in case of America and Serbia in case of Czech and Slovak Lands, although the later case was not the clear cut, since it was re-establishment of ancient Church of Moravia.

Finally, I don't know why EP and GOC ceased commemoration, but, in my reading, that's breaking communion. As a heal to my wound, I feel I'm still in communion with most of the Greeks - St. Photius, St. Gregory Palamas, Sts. Cyril and Methodius, etc.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2008, 06:10:02 AM by orthodoxlurker »
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Re: Serbian Orthodox Church faces key decision
« Reply #23 on: November 12, 2008, 06:54:06 AM »
Finally, I don't know why EP and GOC ceased commemoration,
You actually don't even know that they did, but anyway.....

but, in my reading, that's breaking communion.
"Your reading"? The accuracy of your reading has been in question in several recent threads.

As a heal to my wound,
Oh please! ::)

I feel I'm still in communion with most of the Greeks - St. Photius, St. Gregory Palamas, Sts. Cyril and Methodius, etc.
That's nice. So am I, so we must still be in communion....

Orthodoxlurker, do you actually attend a Church regularly? You seem to be quite out of touch with the reality of what is going on in the Orthodox Church today, and are making ecclesiological decisions for yourself based on "what you have heard" on the Serbian news. I mean, are you aware that only last month Metropolitan Amphilochios of Montenegro represented the Patriarchate of Serbia at the Phanar for the Holy Assembly of Orthodox Primates and Pauline Symposium? Are you aware that Metropolitan Amphilochios of Montenegro concelebrated the Divine Liturgy with His All Holiness Bartholomew and Archbishop Iereneaos? You'll find some 30 day old photos of the Liturgy here. So what exactly do you think might have happened in the last 30 days for the Ecumencial Patriarch and the Archbishop of Athens to break communion with a church they concelebrated with only a month ago? Did he pass the port the wrong way at dinner perhaps?
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Offline serb1389

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Re: Serbian Orthodox Church faces key decision
« Reply #24 on: November 12, 2008, 08:23:18 AM »
Brate,

I'm not exactly sure of the process to elect Patriarch Pavle's predecessor.  I read recently that the Synod pick 3 or 4 candidates and essentially "pick from a hat".  Is that true or is their voting or any reliable articles outlining the process.

Maybe Serb1389 knows the process if you don't.

There is the vote. Candidates are all bishops of active duty with more than five years of "practice". Each bishop votes for three candidates. If one candidate gets more than half of the votes (counting from the number of the bishops voting), he's elected. If there is no such one (and I guess it would be pretty clear to you it would be highly unlikely outcome, having in mind the system of election), three candidates with the highest number of votes are placed in the hat, and a monk (with no chances of becoming a bishop, ever) take one name from the hat.

At present, Fr. Ambrose doesn't have chances of being a candidate.

This is a pretty good summary of what happens.  Just an aside:  they take the names out of a chalice, not a hat ;) ;D

Offline SouthSerb99

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Re: Serbian Orthodox Church faces key decision
« Reply #25 on: November 12, 2008, 09:31:37 AM »
OL,

Keep in mind that whatever you may have read, may have been put in print for a specific purpose (ie: creating divisions between parties that don't exist in reality).

I cannot imagine the EP or the Church of Greece willfully wanting to break communion with us.  Would it be the first time we would be reading false news stories about our people and the Church?

I am sure you have learned by now to take everything you read, with a grain of salt.
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Offline thetraditionalfrog

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Re: Serbian Orthodox Church faces key decision
« Reply #26 on: November 13, 2008, 11:49:21 AM »
The latest news....The synod of Serbian bishops has decided that Patriarch Pavle will remain patriarch until his death. A delegation will visit him at hospital to inform him of their decision today.

Lord God, grant to your servant HH Patriarch PAVLE peace, healing and many years!
« Last Edit: November 13, 2008, 11:49:40 AM by thetraditionalfrog »
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Offline serb1389

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Re: Serbian Orthodox Church faces key decision
« Reply #27 on: November 13, 2008, 03:03:48 PM »
The latest news....The synod of Serbian bishops has decided that Patriarch Pavle will remain patriarch until his death. A delegation will visit him at hospital to inform him of their decision today.

Lord God, grant to your servant HH Patriarch PAVLE peace, healing and many years!


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Offline SolEX01

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Re: Serbian Orthodox Church faces key decision
« Reply #28 on: November 13, 2008, 03:09:53 PM »
Eis Polla Eti, Despota!

Offline serb1389

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Re: Serbian Orthodox Church faces key decision
« Reply #29 on: November 13, 2008, 03:14:54 PM »
Eis Polla Eti, Despota!

I'll make sure to let my wife know... ;) ;D

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Serbian Orthodox Church faces key decision
« Reply #30 on: November 13, 2008, 04:57:54 PM »
God grant him good health!