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Author Topic: Thoughts to ponder about the EP  (Read 3286 times) Average Rating: 0
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Νεκτάριος
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« on: September 02, 2003, 09:24:31 PM »

I just finished reading "Garden of the Holy Spirit" and also part of a new book out by Saint Herman's that has the biographies of Greek 8 elders from the 20 century... also I have been thinking about some things Elder Paisios of the Holy Mountain wrote....


I know there probably isn't a soul here who is a big fan of Patriarch Vartholomeos, but it is intersting to point out that Elder Iakovos of Evia prayed very hard for him to be elected and was overjoyed when he was enthroned as EP.  I also know Elder Porphyrios was very supportive of the state church and the EP.

Just some food for thought...that elders who are true saints support the state churches and the EP, even the very sympathetic to old calendarists Elders still think it is better to be part of the state church.  I don't know what this all means, curious what other people here think.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2003, 09:25:06 PM by Nektarios » Logged
Edwin
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« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2003, 12:25:08 PM »

Nektarios,

It's interesting that on an Orthodox discussion board you should be so confident that no one is a "big fan" of the most important Orthodox bishop. It's another example of how the Internet tends to cater to more extreme opinions.

You may or may not be right about the Orthodox on this board, but of course you do not speak for the non-Orthodox such as myself. I am in fact a great admirer of the EP.

In Christ,

Edwin

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Justin Kissel
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« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2003, 12:40:13 PM »

Quote
...the Internet tends to cater to more extreme opinions...

Quote
I am in fact a great admirer of the EP.

You said it.
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« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2003, 05:37:17 PM »

Edwin,

Historically this is not of the better times of the Ecumenical Patriarchate.  Thus what I said.
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Linus7
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« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2003, 12:39:52 PM »

I have seen some unsubstantiated charges against the EP made on a rather dubious web site. Until I see some well-documented proof of such allegations I will maintain my opinion that the Patriarch is worthy of respect and reverence.

IMHO one should be extremely hesitant to sit in judgment on a man God has placed in such a position in Christ's Church and tremble before bringing railing accusations against him.
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« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2003, 06:04:41 PM »

When the EP gave a talk at Catholic University in DC in 1997 I believe, he called Roman Catholic beliefs heretical 17 times (a priest I know counted).  People who believe the two churches to be equal would not say that. He is not some super-sycretist in my opinion.

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« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2003, 06:05:02 PM »

Linus,

I agree that the out there websites that speak of every patriarch and bishop being a mason, etc. should just simply be ignored.  But there are some very tangible things that can (and should be) examined by the faithful.  Was the Balamand statement right (or simply is involvement in the ecumenical movement in general right) or the expulsion of the ROCOR monks off the Holy Mountain?
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« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2003, 06:18:29 PM »

Pardon my extreme ignorace, but who is Patriarch Vartholomeos?
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« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2003, 07:02:51 PM »


   HIs All-Holiness, Patriarch Bartholomeos of Constantinople
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« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2003, 11:46:15 PM »

Linus,

I agree that the out there websites that speak of every patriarch and bishop being a mason, etc. should just simply be ignored.  But there are some very tangible things that can (and should be) examined by the faithful.  Was the Balamand statement right (or simply is involvement in the ecumenical movement in general right) or the expulsion of the ROCOR monks off the Holy Mountain?  

I don't have an answer for you, Nektarios.

How can I sit in judgment on a patriarch when I cannot even get my own tongue under control? Or fast as I should? Or conquer pride? Or gluttony? Or, or, or . . .

I have not read all of Balamand and I do not know why the EP kicked some ROCOR monks off the Holy Mountain (if he did).

I do not like the Ecumenical Movement and Orthodox involvement in it, but who the heck am I? A sinner, that's all.

I am no one to sit in judgment of the Ecumenical Patriarch.
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Hypo-Ortho
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« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2003, 10:03:36 AM »

Just a few comments from me just as a participant and NOT as a "Global Moderator:"

Some may not agree with it (I, for instance, may agree with it but do NOT agree with how it was done), but the Ecumenical Patriarch does have the right to kick off any monks from the Holy Mountian who do not commemorate him liturgically.  The EP is the Holy Mountain's Ruling Bishop.

As far as the EP being warm, etc., yes, he is.  He recently received His Beatitude, +Metropolitan HERMAN, Primate of the OCA, and his entourage at the Phanar in a most hospitable manner.  In one instance, His All-Holiness gave them a personal tour of an ancient church.  He also hosted a dinner for them and met privately with +Metropolitan HERMAN and Protopresbyter Robert Kondratick, the OCA Chancellor.  All this to maintain friendly relations with the OCA even though the EP does not officially recognize the OCA's autocephaly while it remains in full communion with the OCA!

I am not a personal fan of Patriarch Bartholomew, and I think he goes too far in his ecumenical activities sometimes, especially vis-a-vis Rome, but like someone else stated in this thread, he told Rome's representatives that they were heretical 17 times in one speech!  Now that takes guts for an ecumenist! Grin

Hypo-Ortho
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« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2003, 06:59:27 PM »

I've been thinking about what Linus said and I have been wondering....

What is the balance between humble odediance and at the same time the layman's right and duty to much sure his bishop is doing the right thing.  

I think I know how I feel about this, but would be curious what others feel and if they have some patristic quotes on the matter too.
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« Reply #12 on: September 05, 2003, 07:07:56 PM »

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Some may not agree with it (I, for instance, may agree with it but do NOT agree with how it was done), but the Ecumenical Patriarch does have the right to kick off any monks from the Holy Mountian who do not commemorate him liturgically.  The EP is the Holy Mountain's Ruling Bishop.

That runs into to problems though historically.  There were many Athonite martyrs during the council of florence because they all broke communion with the EP.  Was it then the EP's right to do what happened to the Athonites who didn't go along with Uniatism?

Also Patriarch Athenagoras would have had to kick every single monk off the Holy Mountain as all 20 monasteries ceased commoration of him after the lifting of the Anathemas.  Meletios wasn't commorated either by the Athonites....so it would be intersting if all the EPs tried to get rid of thier critics.
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Hypo-Ortho
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« Reply #13 on: September 06, 2003, 07:21:12 AM »

There are times then, I suppose, that the monks on Mount Athos should just vacate their monasteries and begin elsewhere in places not under the EP's control.  They shouldn't be so attached to earthly places as non-possessor monks anyway, IMHO.  Problem I see is that too many of them are indeed possessors.  Perhaps Patriarch Bartholomew's predecessors didn't feel they could safely exercise their patriarchal prerogative in expelling non-compliant Athonite monks, especially if they, the Patriarchs, weren't so Orthodox themselves?

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« Last Edit: September 06, 2003, 09:12:50 AM by Hypo-Ortho » Logged
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« Reply #14 on: September 06, 2003, 05:50:08 PM »

Quote
I have seen some unsubstantiated charges against the EP made on a rather dubious web site. Until I see some well-documented proof of such allegations I will maintain my opinion that the Patriarch is worthy of respect and reverence.

http://www.euphrosynoscafe.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=944

Seraphim

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« Reply #15 on: September 06, 2003, 09:34:48 PM »

Hypo, should the Orthodox Fathers have simply left the jurisdiction of Arian/monophysite/nestorian/monothelites/iconoclastic bishops and not have fought the heresy?  Also to me it sounds like giving the EP papal like power...

As for the land, the Holy Mountain is hallowed land that especially falls under the protection of the Panagia - I can't fault the monks for not wanting to leave.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2003, 09:40:29 PM by Nektarios » Logged
Hypo-Ortho
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« Reply #16 on: September 06, 2003, 11:45:08 PM »

Hypo, should the Orthodox Fathers have simply left the jurisdiction of Arian/monophysite/nestorian/monothelites/iconoclastic bishops and not have fought the heresy?  Also to me it sounds like giving the EP papal like power...

As for the land, the Holy Mountain is hallowed land that especially falls under the protection of the Panagia - I can't fault the monks for not wanting to leave.  

I can't fault the monks for not wanting to leave either, Nekatarios.  It was home to them, but more on a lease which they violated.  But EP's come and go, and the Holy Mountain and its monks remain, sometimes with their own errors to add to the Holy Mountain's history too.

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« Reply #17 on: September 07, 2003, 12:55:49 AM »

I don't know though if there is such a lease as to remain in communion with the EP.  Unlike the papal system we have no doctrinal certainty that the EP will be Orthodox, so to say the Athonites must always be in communion with the EP to me smacks of being a papal type doctrine.  OTOH I think the monks of esphigemou are wrong in their stance and ecclesiology...but giving monks with no other home (many of whom are elderly too) doesn't really seem like a good option.  It's intersting though my friend who got back a few weeks ago from spending the entire summer on the Holy Mountain said the reports in the Western Media were way over blown and that there is relative peace there now.  Still I have to admit I think the big black banner reading "Orthodoxia i thanatos" is pretty cool....and my friend took a picture of it for me too!

Then again would it make sense to have an old believers skete in the middle of Valaam?  (I guess this is an apt anology)  My guess is that in time cooler (i.e moderate) heads will prevail and esphigemou will at least enter back into communion with the other 19 monasteries OR the extremists will take over the monastery and do what extremists do best (anathamatize their holy synod as being ecumenists heretics and whittle their numbers down to single digits) and slowly disapper/ be taken over by other athonites.
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