Author Topic: What is this?  (Read 2660 times)

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Offline GabrieltheCelt

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What is this?
« on: November 02, 2008, 06:36:38 PM »
I visited another OCA parish this morning that follows the Old Calendar.  Right after the Eucharist, parishoners walked up to a little table against the wall where six glasses of wine had been poured.  Each took a drink from a glass (obviously some glasses were shared) and then took some antidoron.  I'm just wondering what that tradition is from?  Is it just a practical act for helping to "wash down" the antidoron or does it signify something else?  I noticed that everyone took a drink first and then took the antiodoron back to their places.
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Offline Rosehip

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Re: What is this?
« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2008, 06:46:50 PM »
Our altar boys always pull out a small table towards the middle of the church, on the women's side, and bring out silver platters with special silver cups and a big silver bowl full of bread for the communicants, who each drink a small cup full of warm wine and eat some bread. We all stand around together doing this (those of us who have communed). I forget the proper greek word for it, but isn't it supposed to help fortify those who have fasted and communed? I thought all Orthodox people did this.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2008, 06:47:57 PM by Rosehip »
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Offline LBK

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Re: What is this?
« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2008, 06:48:44 PM »
Yes, this is a lovely Slavic custom, to "wash down" the Holy Communion, then the antidoron is eaten. In many parishes, a small amount of wine diluted with warm or hot water is poured into a cup by one of the ladies of the sisterhood, and handed to the communicant. Babies and very small children are given a spoonful of this diluted wine.
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Offline Veniamin

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Re: What is this?
« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2008, 06:48:51 PM »
The wine has the eminently practical effect of washing down any particles of communion that might remain in one's mouth.
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Offline LBK

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Re: What is this?
« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2008, 06:49:37 PM »
I thought all Orthodox people did this.

I have never seen it in Greek churches, only in Slavic ones.
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Offline Andrew21091

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Re: What is this?
« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2008, 06:51:34 PM »
I went to a Russian church this morning with my brother and they did just that. I was going to ask my brother the tradition of it but I did not get the chance. Washing down the communion particles that remain makes a lot of sense. Thanks for clearing that up. I didn't think about that.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: What is this?
« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2008, 06:54:38 PM »
I visited another OCA parish this morning that follows the Old Calendar.  Right after the Eucharist, parishoners walked up to a little table against the wall where six glasses of wine had been poured.  Each took a drink from a glass (obviously some glasses were shared) and then took some antidoron.  I'm just wondering what that tradition is from?  Is it just a practical act for helping to "wash down" the antidoron or does it signify something else?  I noticed that everyone took a drink first and then took the antiodoron back to their places.
By "right after the Eucharist" you mean off to the side for individual communicants to partake immediately after receiving the Holy Mysteries (as opposed to after the end of the Divine Liturgy)?  What you describe sounds very much like the practice at my OCA parish--we're New Calendar and somewhat "modernist" on the scale of "modernist vs. traditionalist" that guides how many Orthodox think, so I don't think the calendar has anything to do with it.  AFAIK, though my experience is certainly limited, there is no real symbolic reason for this practice.  I've been told that the reason is purely practical:  we drink a little blessed wine and eat a little blessed bread after receiving Communion in order to "wash down" the Holy Mysteries that we have just consumed, this so we don't risk accidentally spitting Christ back out after we have eaten His flesh and drunk His blood.  This post-Communion act is particularly important for us singers, for whom the mere act of singing greatly increases the risk of accidental expectoration.

Of course, we Orthodox love to attach spiritual symbolism to actions that originate from purely practical considerations, so I'm not surprised if we now understand the action you describe in a somewhat symbolic manner, as well.
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Offline GabrieltheCelt

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Re: What is this?
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2008, 07:03:38 PM »
This is one of the many reasons why I love the OC.Net!!  Thanks for clearing this up, y'all.  :)

PtA- Sorry for the confusion; I did mean immediately after receiving the Holy Mysteries.  My OCA parish is New Calendar and does not have this tradition, so that's why I brought up the calendar point.  I also noticed that all the women and girls wore headscarves as well; this little parish definately has a traditionalist approach which I very much like.  Now, I'm sorta torn as to which parish I should attend...but that's for another thread.
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Offline John of the North

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Re: What is this?
« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2008, 07:09:08 PM »
I have never seen this in a Ukrainian parish, but it was at the MP cathedral. Kinda odd feeling, watching the priest run around just for me (it was a Presanctified Liturgy, I was the only one who received that day.)
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Offline John of the North

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Re: What is this?
« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2008, 07:09:52 PM »
On a side note, I have never seen Holy Water offered for communicants at the local Antiochian parish....
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Offline Rosehip

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Re: What is this?
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2008, 07:15:28 PM »
I now recall my few visits to other Orthodox churches-Ukrainian and Serbian (I've never been to a Greek liturgy), and it is true, they did not follow this custom. It's such a nice, cozy little affair, seems to me (maybe this isn't the best way to put it).
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Offline zoarthegleaner

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Re: What is this?
« Reply #11 on: November 03, 2008, 10:35:29 AM »
"Yes, this is a lovely Slavic custom, to "wash down" the Holy Communion"

This "Slavic custom" was required by St. John Chrysosotom of all communicants.
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Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: What is this?
« Reply #12 on: November 03, 2008, 11:03:11 AM »

We do the same in my Ukrainian Orthodox church.  Immediately following Holy Communion, the communicant is offered the "Zapivka" - some bread (antidoron/prosphora) and wine - taken in order to cleanse the mouth and ensure that all of Holy Communion is consumed. 

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Offline GabrieltheCelt

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Re: What is this?
« Reply #13 on: November 03, 2008, 11:29:27 AM »

This "Slavic custom" was required by St. John Chrysosotom of all communicants.
If this is true, what a shame it's been abandoned by some.  Can you point me to Where St. John has required this?
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Offline Rosehip

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Re: What is this?
« Reply #14 on: November 03, 2008, 11:44:46 AM »
Here's a (very bad quality) shot of our "zapivka" (thanks Liza-I had forgotten the name of it!).
« Last Edit: November 03, 2008, 11:45:57 AM by Rosehip »
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Offline mike

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Re: What is this?
« Reply #15 on: November 03, 2008, 04:20:03 PM »
I also used to think that it's a common practice among the Orthodox, I'm so suprised...
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Offline Salpy

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Re: What is this?
« Reply #16 on: November 03, 2008, 10:59:08 PM »
Isn't this sort of a remnant of the ancient agape meal?


Offline Salpy

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Re: What is this?
« Reply #17 on: November 04, 2008, 12:09:21 AM »
Or am I confusing it with the bread that is given at the end of the liturgy?  Which one is the remnant of the agape meal? 

Offline Rosehip

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Re: What is this?
« Reply #18 on: November 04, 2008, 12:43:28 AM »
Salpy, in my various readings today, I came upon this idea of the "zapivka" being a remnant of the agape meal. But I didn't make note of the source. I've also read that the bread dipped in wine which we receive at vigil is also a vestige of the agape meal-and it has a specific greek name, but I can't remember it. :-[
Sorry, I'm getting tired now...
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Offline LBK

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Re: What is this?
« Reply #19 on: November 04, 2008, 03:43:43 AM »
Salpy, in my various readings today, I came upon this idea of the "zapivka" being a remnant of the agape meal. But I didn't make note of the source. I've also read that the bread dipped in wine which we receive at vigil is also a vestige of the agape meal-and it has a specific greek name, but I can't remember it. :-[
Sorry, I'm getting tired now...

The Greek word you're looking for is probably artos, meaning bread. However, to a Russian, artos is the special bread which is blessed at the end of the Paschal liturgy (before the blessing of the Easter baskets!), and later distributed in small pieces among the faithful. I am not aware of any distinctive Slavonic word to describe the bread blessed at the Litia during a Vigil, I have only seen it referred to as khlyeb (bread).


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Offline Rosehip

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Re: What is this?
« Reply #20 on: November 04, 2008, 10:39:26 AM »
My apologies! It was getting late and I could no longer think. It's called "artoklasia" and here's a link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artoklasia

Quote
Artoklasia also symbolizes and brings into practice the Agape meals of the very early Christian communities. After the faithful had received the Body and Blood of Christ, they would gather in a common meal, thus signifying the brotherly association established between them by their common faith and by their receiving the same sacramental Lord. The Agape meals also served a charitable purpose by providing meals to the poorer from among them.

It's wikipedia, and I realize it's never a good place to reference, so if there is a mistake in the text, let me know, please. But, this is what I was talking about.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2008, 10:41:24 AM by Rosehip »
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Re: What is this?
« Reply #21 on: November 04, 2008, 11:18:15 AM »
Salpy, in my various readings today, I came upon this idea of the "zapivka" being a remnant of the agape meal. But I didn't make note of the source. I've also read that the bread dipped in wine which we receive at vigil is also a vestige of the agape meal-and it has a specific greek name, but I can't remember it. :-[
Sorry, I'm getting tired now...

The Greek word you're looking for is probably artos, meaning bread. However, to a Russian, artos is the special bread which is blessed at the end of the Paschal liturgy (before the blessing of the Easter baskets!), and later distributed in small pieces among the faithful. I am not aware of any distinctive Slavonic word to describe the bread blessed at the Litia during a Vigil, I have only seen it referred to as khlyeb (bread).




Or Chlib when Church Slavonic is written in the Slovak alphabet.  A popular prayer book of days gone by was the Chlib Dusi which means the bread of life.
Don't forget the blessing of the artos on St. Thomas Sunday.