Head coverings and you.

[Justin Kissel]

What is involved in it today?
Table of Oblation
Prosfora (properly made, with stamp)
sacred discos
sacred spear
sacred asterisk
sacred chalice
antimins or altar
better go to confession before you get it
better only be baptized by us and a member of our church or be turned away

Dude. I don't doubt your sincerity. But every time you post a variation of this list I wince. I don't mean to offend, but for me this is rather like someone saying "I don't go to that church anymore because they wanted grey carpet and I wanted greyish blue." I mean, is this seriously what you have issues with regarding Orthodoxy? I've seen you say so, not with this exact list I don't think, but leastwise with a good bit of overlap, but I still have to ask, because I just don't understand it. This is taking the (false) notion that there is no development in Orthodoxy to a degree that totally confuses me.

[LBK]

For those who regard the display of female hair in church as "unbiblical" and unseemly, can any of you tell me how this sort of "head covering" renders a woman's presence in church acceptable and proper?

[katherine 2001]

I agree with LBK here.  That scarf covers very little of her hair. 

[LBK]

I agree with LBK here.  That scarf covers very little of her hair. 

And yet, I have lost count of the number of times I've seen women wear something like this, or even less, and be deemed to be "covered". It makes a mockery of the whole idea of women covering their hair. Hair covering means just that - it should be complete, allowing at most a bit visible at the forehead, such as bangs. Anything more, and it's no different to going bare-headed.

[Justin Kissel]

 

[Deep Roots]

I like when there's a little bit of hair hanging out of the headcovering.  Gives you a little peak of what's under there.  What is it?  You just don't know.  More hair?  A head?  I don't know, but that's the best part, it leaves it to your imagination.  hot.

[LBK]

Why the eye roll, Asteriktos?

I'm not concerned one way or another whether a woman goes bareheaded or not, as long as she freely chooses to do what she does. But I do see in a great many headcovering advocates, here on this forum, and in real life, the inconsistency of insisting a woman wears something on her head so as to "not offend the angels", yet find a diaphanous strip of chiffon, or a small beret, or a scarf like the one in the picture, sufficient. Please.  

[Justin Kissel]

Just seems a bit much. *shrugs*

[katherineofdixie]

...the bottom line is that if you are an American (and no, this has nothing to do with liberalism) or a western Orthodox Christian (probably a convert)...you live in a culture that absolutely does NOT see a woman's hair as inherently sacred or whathaveyou. 

This may be true in the present day, but it wasn't that long ago that hats and headcovering were absolutely the custom for women in church. I remember my mother's and grandmother's beautiful hats, and my Catholic grandmother and aunts all wore mantillas. This has been a fairly recent change, at least in my neck of the woods. The older ladies in African-American churches also wear hats, to this day.

[LBK]

Just seems a bit much. *shrugs*

... that if women are to cover, they should at least do it properly? How can that be "a bit much"?  

[Deep Roots]

...the bottom line is that if you are an American (and no, this has nothing to do with liberalism) or a western Orthodox Christian (probably a convert)...you live in a culture that absolutely does NOT see a woman's hair as inherently sacred or whathaveyou. 

This may be true in the present day, but it wasn't that long ago that hats and headcovering were absolutely the custom for women in church. I remember my mother's and grandmother's beautiful hats, and my Catholic grandmother and aunts all wore mantillas. This has been a fairly recent change, at least in my neck of the woods. The older ladies in African-American churches also wear hats, to this day.

Yes.  It is a cultural thing.  You're making my point.  Now you can argue that you wish women still wore headcoverings to church.  But then how do you separate that custom from other cultural customs?  And if you want to keep one custom, how do you justify not keeping all the others?

Just say that you like the idea of wearing headcoverings.  But I'm not going to accept that it's a theological imperative.

[Justin Kissel]

Just seems a bit much. *shrugs*

... that if women are to cover, they should at least do it properly? How can that be "a bit much"?  

I dunno, by a bit much I just mean it seems like we wouldn't be having this conversation about guys. I can't imagine a thread in which people bemoan how guys wear short-sleeved t-shirts. "Why not go the whole way? If you're going to be modest then wear long sleeves!" Is it the act of putting on a head covering, or the intention, that is supposed to be good and modest and beneficial? Or is it some exactitude regarding exactly how many hairs are covered and how many are still showing?

[LBK]

Just seems a bit much. *shrugs*

... that if women are to cover, they should at least do it properly? How can that be "a bit much"?  

I dunno, by a bit much I just mean it seems like we wouldn't be having this conversation about guys. I can't imagine a thread in which people bemoan how guys wear short-sleeved t-shirts. "Why not go the whole way? If you're going to be modest then wear long sleeves!" Is it the act of putting on a head covering, or the intention, that is supposed to be good and modest and beneficial? Or is it some exactitude regarding exactly how many hairs are covered and how many are still showing?

Again, you're missing the point. Those stridently insisting women cover their heads claim scriptural authority, that the display of feminine hair in the house of God is unseemly, disrespectful, and offensive to the angels. Yet what passes for many headcoverings is lip service to this dictum.

If scriptural authority is to be invoked, then it could be argued that there is nothing specific about how men should dress while in church, other than they should not wear the clothing of the opposite sex. Nothing there about short sleeves.

[katherineofdixie]

...the bottom line is that if you are an American (and no, this has nothing to do with liberalism) or a western Orthodox Christian (probably a convert)...you live in a culture that absolutely does NOT see a woman's hair as inherently sacred or whathaveyou. 

This may be true in the present day, but it wasn't that long ago that hats and headcovering were absolutely the custom for women in church. I remember my mother's and grandmother's beautiful hats, and my Catholic grandmother and aunts all wore mantillas. This has been a fairly recent change, at least in my neck of the woods. The older ladies in African-American churches also wear hats, to this day.

Yes.  It is a cultural thing.  You're making my point.  Now you can argue that you wish women still wore headcoverings to church.  But then how do you separate that custom from other cultural customs?  And if you want to keep one custom, how do you justify not keeping all the others?

Just say that you like the idea of wearing headcoverings.  But I'm not going to accept that it's a theological imperative.

I think you missed a little of my point also. Your point (I believe, but I may be mistaken) was that in the US there is not a tradition or culture of women wearing headcoverings in church. While in my experience, there is, or at least, was up until fairly recently. And for all the reasons, Biblical and theological, given by others who are in favor of women wearing headcoverings.

[Justin Kissel]

Again, you're missing the point. Those stridently insisting women cover their heads claim scriptural authority, that the display of feminine hair in the house of God is unseemly, disrespectful, and offensive to the angels. Yet what passes for many headcoverings is lip service to this dictum.

If scriptural authority is to be invoked, then it could be argued that there is nothing specific about how men should dress while in church, other than they should not wear the clothing of the opposite sex. Nothing there about short sleeves.

I guess I'm just very confused

[Deep Roots]

...the bottom line is that if you are an American (and no, this has nothing to do with liberalism) or a western Orthodox Christian (probably a convert)...you live in a culture that absolutely does NOT see a woman's hair as inherently sacred or whathaveyou. 

This may be true in the present day, but it wasn't that long ago that hats and headcovering were absolutely the custom for women in church. I remember my mother's and grandmother's beautiful hats, and my Catholic grandmother and aunts all wore mantillas. This has been a fairly recent change, at least in my neck of the woods. The older ladies in African-American churches also wear hats, to this day.

Yes.  It is a cultural thing.  You're making my point.  Now you can argue that you wish women still wore headcoverings to church.  But then how do you separate that custom from other cultural customs?  And if you want to keep one custom, how do you justify not keeping all the others?

Just say that you like the idea of wearing headcoverings.  But I'm not going to accept that it's a theological imperative.

I think you missed a little of my point also. Your point (I believe, but I may be mistaken) was that in the US there is not a tradition or culture of women wearing headcoverings in church. While in my experience, there is, or at least, was up until fairly recently. And for all the reasons, Biblical and theological, given by others who are in favor of women wearing headcoverings.

I'm not missing anything.  I'm just arguing for an understanding of culture that allows for evolution and change.  No culture has ever remained totally stagnant.  Some resist change more forcefully while others accept it more readily -- but no culture remains the same. 

I have never stated that headcoverings were never a part of US culture -- that would be untrue.  From puritans to Catholics to secular fashion, etc., hats and coverings are a part of US culture.  Heck, they still are in a different way.

Nonetheless, cultures change.

That has been my point all along.  At one point in time, people dressed up to go to the movies. 

I'm all for preserving a kind of decorum and respect in our public conduct, but I'm not about to ascribe a theological imperative to shifting cultural artifacts and tradition.

[Romaios]

Yet what passes for many headcoverings is lip service to this dictum.

If scriptural authority is to be invoked, then it could be argued that there is nothing specific about how men should dress while in church, other than they should not wear the clothing of the opposite sex. Nothing there about short sleeves.

Westboro Baptist Church

[orthonorm]

You do have men in the Church who violate Scripture and cover their heads and grow their hair long (and yes they groom it as well so put away your silly Greek word dicing).

LBK is making a reasonable point here.

I always gotta wonder about all the scrutiny women receive in Christianity.

[orthonorm]

Have to say I enjoy the content on the board lately being offered by Romaios and Deep Roots.

Which means I will probably loathe you both in months to come. Oh well, enjoy your laurels before they wilt.

[Romaios]

Which means I will probably loathe you both in months to come.

Loathe the post, but not the poster. 

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