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Author Topic: Spare the Rod Spoil the Child?  (Read 11059 times) Average Rating: 0
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GabrieltheCelt
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« on: July 19, 2008, 09:41:08 PM »

This was split from "Background TV and Kids": http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,16884.0.html

Thanks to PoorFoolNicholas for creating this thread; all relevant posts from that thread have been merged into this one.

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Last I heard, doctors don't go telling their patients to beat up their kids in the name of Jesus. Just sayin'... Grin
That's a serious accusation.  Can you substantiate that?

Edited for clarity.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2008, 05:19:38 PM by ytterbiumanalyst » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2008, 10:48:25 PM »

That's a serious accusation.  Can you substantiate that?
Easily. From www.family.org, Dr. Dobson's own Website:

Quote from: Dr. James Dobson
A small amount of pain goes a long way at that age and begins to introduce children to realities of the physical world and the importance of listening to what you say.1

Quote from: Dr. James Dobson
If you withhold discipline from your child, you may regret your choice when he hits his preteen years and decides he just doesn’t want to listen to you anymore. When there are no painful consequences to disobedience, children find it much easier to tune out their parents.2

Quote from: Dr. James Dobson
Consider the following advice, featured on the Oklahoma State Department of Health’s “Positive Discipline” Web page. It reads, “The goal of discipline is not to control children and make them obey, but to give them skills for making decisions, gradually gaining self-control and being responsible for their own behavior.” Instead of telling a child, “Don’t hit the kitty,” or “Stop kicking the table,” they suggest that parents say, “Touch the kitty gently,” or “Keep your feet on the floor.”

The Web site goes on to assert that “Giving a child choices allows him some appropriate power over his life and encourages decision making.” Parents are advised to “redirect” childish behavior. For example, if a child is throwing a truck around the house, instead of telling him to stop, the site suggests you say to him, “I can’t let you throw your truck, but you may throw the ball outside.” Or if the child is kicking a door, you tell him, “You may not kick the door, but you may kick this ball or plastic milk jug.” The suggestion for dealing with willful defiance is to ignore it or to allow the child to engage in “something pleasant.”

What ridiculous advice that is! Notice how hard the parent is supposed to work to avoid being the leader at home. What’s wrong with explaining to a child exactly what you want him or her to do, and then expecting obedience in return? What’s wrong with a parent insisting when a child engages in destructive or irritating behavior that he immediately cease and desist? What’s wrong with telling the child, “Kitties have feelings, too. You will not hit the kitty”? The answer in each case is, “Nothing!”

In fact, a youngster whose parent has never taken charge firmly is being deprived of a proper understanding of his mom’s or dad’s authority. It also keeps him from comprehending other forms of authority that he will encounter when he leaves the safety of his permissive cocoon.

Sooner or later, that boy or girl is going to bump into a teacher, a police officer, a Marine Corps drill sergeant or an employer who has never heard of “Positive Discipline,” and who will expect orders to be carried out as specified. The child who has heard only “suggestions” for alternative behavior through the years, which he may choose to accept or reject, is not prepared for the real world.3

These are the musings of a very disturbed, very dangerous man.

1http://www.family.org/parenting/A000001548.cfm
2http://www.family.org/parenting/A000001549.cfm
3http://www.family.org/parenting/A000001167.cfm
« Last Edit: July 19, 2008, 10:48:49 PM by ytterbiumanalyst » Logged

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« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2008, 11:04:25 PM »

While I do agree that spanking can be a good tool to use on certain (and quite rare) occasions, I have always had a problem with Dobson. He tends to think that the "family" is more important than everything else on the face of the earth. He goes too far in his enterprise, it becomes- to me at least, idolatry.
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« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2008, 12:12:41 AM »

This came up in the post dealing with background television and children. Should we spank children, ever? Occasionally? Never? Is it a cultural phenomenon that should stay in the past? Or is it a universal form of discipline for all ages?
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« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2008, 12:26:35 AM »

Interesting question. The only thing I have to contribute is to say that we don't plan on spanking our kids (though they are girls, so that made the decision easier).
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« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2008, 12:27:46 AM »

Interesting question. The only thing I have to contribute is to say that we don't plan on spanking our kids (though they are girls, so that made the decision easier).
I am personally against it myself. Just wondered what others had to say about the subject.
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« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2008, 12:29:54 AM »

With regards to hitting children, Absolutely Never!
« Last Edit: July 20, 2008, 12:30:35 AM by SolEX01 » Logged
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« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2008, 12:44:52 AM »

I use consequences as a form of discipline with my kids. It forces the child to take responsibility for their choices and helps them to learn how to make wise decisions. Also, it allows children to make small mistakes at an earlier age when the consequences are not so detrimental to their future.

An example that comes to mind was when my son was a first grader he was always losing his personal belongings (sweatshirts, hats, small toys, etc.). Well, on one occasion he left his beloved baseball glove at the park. When we came back the next day it was gone. So instead of us buying him a new one we told him would have to earn his own money to buy it. He decided to sell muffins on the day our street had a garage sale. He was out there early with his sign, table, cash box and muffins. He did a brisk business and made $30.00. He was so thrilled with earning the cash but was sad when he realized he would have to use it all to purchase the glove. After that event he learned to keep track of his personal items.

 
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« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2008, 01:12:24 AM »

Easily. From www.family.org, Dr. Dobson's own Website:
You've got to be joking, right?  Respectfully, brother, this isn't at all substanitiating what you asserted-
Quote
doctors don't go telling their patients to beat up their kids in the name of Jesus
I would hope that as a father, even as an educated person, you should be able to grasp the difference between a spanking and beating up your child?  The original assertion is a gross misrepresentation as to what Dr. Dobson is saying.  And don't think that I'm a follower of Dr. Dobson whole-heartedly, but he does have some great advice on parenting. 

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« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2008, 01:15:09 AM »

I use consequences as a form of discipline with my kids. It forces the child to take responsibility for their choices and helps them to learn how to make wise decisions. Also, it allows children to make small mistakes at an earlier age when the consequences are not so detrimental to their future.

An example that comes to mind was when my son was a first grader he was always losing his personal belongings (sweatshirts, hats, small toys, etc.). Well, on one occasion he left his beloved baseball glove at the park. When we came back the next day it was gone. So instead of us buying him a new one we told him would have to earn his own money to buy it. He decided to sell muffins on the day our street had a garage sale. He was out there early with his sign, table, cash box and muffins. He did a brisk business and made $30.00. He was so thrilled with earning the cash but was sad when he realized he would have to use it all to purchase the glove. After that event he learned to keep track of his personal items.

 
Wonderful story, sister!  Thanks for sharing it with us. 
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« Reply #10 on: July 20, 2008, 01:32:57 AM »


A friend of mine from work related this story just a few weeks ago.  He said his wife had a fender-bender so she pulled into a McDonalds while she waited for the police to arrive.  She had all three kids with her and as time passed they began to get tired and fussy.  She did what she could to pacify them but her young 5 year old son began yelling that he wanted a happy meal toy.  Well, just as the police officer showed up, she swatted him on the fannie.  When she saw the officer she thought, "Oh boy, now I'm the one who's gonna get hauled off."  I guess he noticed the distress on her face because he said with a smile, "Lady, if you don't get him now, I'll get him later."  Meaning if she didn't discipline him, he'd more than likely end up in the juvenille system. 

Spanking is a delicate, sensitive matter on many levels.  Personally, I'm for it but I should qualify my answer by saying their are pre-conditions, the most important of which is to not spank them when you're angry.  The consequences story that Tamara raised is probably a better alternative, but I can envision certain scenarios where an immediate swat on the fannie would be more appropriate.  I am told by many parents that no matter how much you try to educate yourself with regards to children, you're usually caught off guard in the most amazing and profound ways.  And truly, no parent wants to hurt their child, but you sometimes must do what you don't necessarily want to do.
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« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2008, 02:49:33 AM »

We have a discipline chart
http://www.doorposts.net/if_then.asp

The majority of the issues we have with our children are heart issues of disobedience. And there have to be consequences. For the 10 items on the chart we have, only one has a consequence of spanking; direct and willful disobedience. As in you are told not to do X and you do that as well as Y and Z just because you can. And the rest have specific consequences in relation to the offense. For example;

When you steal a toy from another person you have to give back two toys.

Interupting gets a hand over the mouth time out.

Willfully lying when given the chance to tell the truth (that distinction is made because often kids don't know the difference, so I don't punish lying until a child understands the concept. And when I know that they are lying I give them the chance to tell me the truth before we proceed) is washing your mouth out with soap.

Hitting or kicking-time out with your hands and feet together.

I could go on, but you get the gist. Spanking is a tool to be used on occasion. But like a hammer can't be used for everything, neither can spanking be a catch-all punishment. We are correcting moreso than punishing. It is easier to spank for everything, but it produces fear of being caught, not any change of heart.
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« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2008, 02:57:45 AM »

My eldest is so used to this that she tried to punish herself for lying! Last night she lied to me about something. I didn't even know she lied, but she confessed to me that she did, asked forgiveness and then started to wash her mouth out with soap. I stopped her, it is more important that she is honest, confesses and seeks forgiveness, than any "justice." So she didn't get a punishment, but she was still very sorry. I am really proud of her, she is very quick to seek forgiveness when she has wronged (intentionally or not) someone else.

Our priests son-in-law (who is also a priest actually) has their children do a full prostration when they ask forgiveness from another. And when Fr James and Kh Martha were raising their kids they had everyone in the family prostrate and ask everyone else for forgiveness each day. Another family has a day of "jubilee" each month where the child can confess literally anything without punishment-just to make sure the lines of communication are open. As an Orthodox christian it is so wonderful to see forgiveness vespers where our priest asks forgiveness from even my little 2 year old. Beautiful.
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« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2008, 12:26:10 PM »

This came up in the post dealing with background television and children. Should we spank children, ever? Occasionally? Never? Is it a cultural phenomenon that should stay in the past? Or is it a universal form of discipline for all ages?

It's battery and assault and should be prosecuted as such.
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« Reply #14 on: July 20, 2008, 12:30:04 PM »

It's battery and assault and should be prosecuted as such.

Send the police, we have a spanking spoon in our house that needs confiscated! police
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« Reply #15 on: July 20, 2008, 12:47:16 PM »

I knew a pastor in my former church who would spank his children while the tears ran down his cheeks and afterwards he would always hold the child in his lap and give him a big hug, telling him how much he loved the child and how difficult it was for him to have to administer the discipline. His children are now grown up into lovely well-adjusted, happy, and godly people. In his sermons, he always warned against disciplining in anger.
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« Reply #16 on: July 20, 2008, 02:26:52 PM »

I don't think spanking is something that should be turned into a Nanny State issue, where parents are charged with child abuse for swatting the kid on the bum.  I do, however, think there are better ways to discipline children.  I like the idea of consequences once children are old enough to understand them.  The best thing I've found for small children is to distract them from what might get them in trouble (like a child who keeps taking another's toy... separate them and distract with different toys). 
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« Reply #17 on: July 20, 2008, 02:36:05 PM »

I personally don't see a problem with giving a kid a spanking/slap for acting up.  It may be just due to my upbringing that I feel that way, with more ethnic parents I used to get much worse than just a slap (wooden spoon, LoL!), and I like to think I turned out alright.   laugh  Living in a very WASPy area though, others kids would be horrified that 'sitting on the stairs' wasn't the sternest punishment I faced.   Tongue
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« Reply #18 on: July 20, 2008, 03:01:58 PM »

I personally don't see a problem with giving a kid a spanking/slap for acting up.  It may be just due to my upbringing that I feel that way, with more ethnic parents I used to get much worse than just a slap (wooden spoon, LoL!), and I like to think I turned out alright.   laugh  Living in a very WASPy area though, others kids would be horrified that 'sitting on the stairs' wasn't the sternest punishment I faced.   Tongue

Oh, so this aversion to spanking is a  WASPy thing, Friul? I didn't know that! Well, obviously my parents didn't know it either, because I certainly received my share of spankings too. Yes, I will agree that it seems you turned out alright! Smiley Glory to God!
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« Reply #19 on: July 20, 2008, 04:26:23 PM »

Oh, so this aversion to spanking is a  WASPy thing, Friul? I didn't know that! Well, obviously my parents didn't know it either, because I certainly received my share of spankings too. Yes, I will agree that it seems you turned out alright! Smiley Glory to God!

I was born in a really immigrant heavy region in Quebec, and if you acted up, other people's parents would hit you.  It was just expected.   laugh  Then we moved, and it is totally different here.  I remember when I was younger, a friend was crying because their dad *threatened* to hit her.  I was dumbfounded.   Tongue
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« Reply #20 on: July 20, 2008, 04:29:02 PM »

Even though I don't believe in spanking, I see a lot of moderation being discussed as well as many other discipline options. I was spanked just a few times as a child, more often I was given some other form of discipline, though. So I think that spanking is really something that may not even be needed. Any thoughts? Am I way off base?
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« Reply #21 on: July 20, 2008, 04:47:30 PM »

I don't think spanking is something that should be turned into a Nanny State issue, where parents are charged with child abuse for swatting the kid on the bum.

I don't think it's a 'Nanny State' issue, in fact the issue has very little to do with parenting (though I've witnessed in some that I know the effects of using violence in parenting and, with very very few exceptions, the results are varying degrees of negative psychological impact), rather the issue at hand is an equal and unbiased application of law without regard for class, lineage, or stature.
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« Reply #22 on: July 20, 2008, 05:32:58 PM »

I would hope that as a father, even as an educated person, you should be able to grasp the difference between a spanking and beating up your child?  The original assertion is a gross misrepresentation as to what Dr. Dobson is saying.  And don't think that I'm a follower of Dr. Dobson whole-heartedly, but he does have some great advice on parenting. 
I really don't make a distinction. Violence in one circumstance is no different than violence in another. Why do we teach our children that violence is wrong, and yet use violence to teach this principle? Why should we be surprised when we spank our children when they do wrong, only to see them hit another kid because the other child did something wrong?

No, consequences must fit the behavior. Natural consequences are the very best, as in what Tamara was saying above. The baseball glove story is wonderful--and the best part is that no action was necessary from the parents. We should shield our children from the world where appropriate, and let them experience the world as it will help them grow. Parents become a filter for their children, and we filter less as the children age so that they can deal with the world as adults.

Dr. Dobson keeps saying that spanking is necessary so that children learn how the world is. Apparently to Dr. Dobson, the world is cruel and violent; I imagine an investigation into his childhood will reveal the reasons he sees it as such. This is a classic case of "Physician, heal thyself."
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« Reply #23 on: July 20, 2008, 06:33:28 PM »

I learned nothing from spankings except to try and avoid them as a child.
A spanking never taught me what was right or wrong, it just taught me not to get caught.
Kids aren't dogs, there is no logical connection in their minds between "wrong" and "spanking". The only thing parents teach their kids when they spank them is that they have power over them. It doesn't work.
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« Reply #24 on: July 20, 2008, 07:22:59 PM »

DIXIT ALIQUIS
So I think that spanking is really something that may not even be needed.

DICO
I did not spank No. 1 much.  Once I found out that No. 1 was amenable to reason, I made the safe
assumption that No. 2 was, too.  I do not even remember spanking No. 2. 
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« Reply #25 on: July 21, 2008, 12:32:56 AM »

I completely agree with you about the WASP thing Friul. Of all the people I have met that are so vehementaly against ALL spanking every single one is white.
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« Reply #26 on: July 21, 2008, 02:38:42 AM »

I'm not going to criticise a parent who spanks their child with careful thought and control - done this way it doesn't horrify me. But in observing my own kids, I have seen my 3 year attempt to put my 1 year old in a time out, as well as take away "privileges" when the baby doesn't listen/cooperate. While I have explained to the eldest that only mommy and papa can do this, I can only imagine what the 3 yr. old would have been trying with the baby were we spankers. I think that's my biggest beef with it - the example it sets with children at an age where they don't really understand. I could just see him trying it with another child at preschool too. Also, to me it almost seems the easy way out - quick and dirty (but yes, I understand - potentially effective).

In our household, I tried timeouts (sadly, before my mat leave I worked so much that I really didn't know how to discipline the big boy when I finally did come home on my mat. leave.), but found them physically too difficult, continually returning a large, strong fighting toddler to the same spot (especially when I was pregnant and still dealing with car accident injuries). So, if I couldn't come up with a consequence that was connected directly to the offence, I turned to removing privileges. Namely, at this age, taking toys away (all of them if need be) for a period of time, is quite effective. Sometimes it's e.g. canceling an outing or sending home a playmate if someone is over. When I'm out and about the big boy usually has a beloved toy with him that I can take away. This has been pretty effective, albeit not perfect for my VERY stubborn child, but each kid is different.

Now, if I'm ready to throw the 3 year old out the window, I will, as a last resort, put him on the upstairs landing locked behind a high baby gate (not his bedroom for a variety of reasons I won't get into now based on parenting and child development tips). This is mostly for his protection while mommy goes batty.
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« Reply #27 on: July 21, 2008, 10:44:59 AM »

I'm not going to criticise a parent who spanks their child with careful thought and control - done this way it doesn't horrify me. But in observing my own kids, I have seen my 3 year attempt to put my 1 year old in a time out, as well as take away "privileges" when the baby doesn't listen/cooperate. While I have explained to the eldest that only mommy and papa can do this, I can only imagine what the 3 yr. old would have been trying with the baby were we spankers. I think that's my biggest beef with it - the example it sets with children at an age where they don't really understand. I could just see him trying it with another child at preschool too. Also, to me it almost seems the easy way out - quick and dirty (but yes, I understand - potentially effective).
That is why I kind of err on the side of caution in the spanking issue. I want to be clear that I am not trying to offend anyone. I would not presume to tell you guys how to run your own household. And from what I am hearing, you are all doing a good job (By the Grace of God! Cheesy). I guess I don't think that I could trust myself not to spank in anger. I am not saying that I would break bones and strangle, You guys know what I mean, though, don't you? Sometimes when you are frazzled anger just slips out. You don't intend for it to, but sometimes it does. This is why I am against it. However, there are many that may not be susceptible to this. Thoughts/comments?
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« Reply #28 on: July 21, 2008, 11:26:51 AM »

I'm not going to criticise a parent who spanks their child with careful thought and control - done this way it doesn't horrify me. But in observing my own kids, I have seen my 3 year attempt to put my 1 year old in a time out, as well as take away "privileges" when the baby doesn't listen/cooperate. While I have explained to the eldest that only mommy and papa can do this, I can only imagine what the 3 yr. old would have been trying with the baby were we spankers. I think that's my biggest beef with it - the example it sets with children at an age where they don't really understand. I could just see him trying it with another child at preschool too. Also, to me it almost seems the easy way out - quick and dirty (but yes, I understand - potentially effective).
Absolutely. I believe this is the strongest evidence against it. Babies don't yet understand right and wrong, and as they mature into toddlers, they gain a sense of absolute right and wrong with no sense of extenuating circumstances. So they attempt to "punish" all wrongdoers with whatever method they are accustomed to--even if that child is disciplined differently because of differences in personality.

That is why I kind of err on the side of caution in the spanking issue. I want to be clear that I am not trying to offend anyone. I would not presume to tell you guys how to run your own household. And from what I am hearing, you are all doing a good job (By the Grace of God! Cheesy). I guess I don't think that I could trust myself not to spank in anger. I am not saying that I would break bones and strangle, You guys know what I mean, though, don't you? Sometimes when you are frazzled anger just slips out. You don't intend for it to, but sometimes it does. This is why I am against it. However, there are many that may not be susceptible to this. Thoughts/comments?
Yeah, it's best never to judge how other parents choose to discipline, because every child is different and every household is different. I know from experience as a teacher that when one child is absent for one day, it changes how the entire class behaves. So not only the personality of the child but the interactions between all children in the family--and even those who visit--should be taken into account when deciding how to discipline.

Instead, parents should decide for themselves how to discipline each child, and be willing to change that as the child ages and new children enter the family. I personally have not seen spanking work in my family of origin, and neither has my wife in hers. In fact, I've seen spanking actually increase undesirable behaviour. So we choose a different method of discipline. Right now, since my daughter is almost nine months old, it's simply removing her from dangerous situations. As she ages, other methods will be necessary, and we'll introduce them as appropriate. The best discipline is always the one that changes the behaviour of the child in the way that benefits her most.
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« Reply #29 on: July 21, 2008, 02:27:52 PM »

Quote from: Dobson
The suggestion for dealing with willful defiance is to ignore it or to allow the child to engage in “something pleasant.”

What ridiculous advice that is! Notice how hard the parent is supposed to work to avoid being the leader at home. What’s wrong with explaining to a child exactly what you want him or her to do, and then expecting obedience in return? What’s wrong with a parent insisting when a child engages in destructive or irritating behavior that he immediately cease and desist? What’s wrong with telling the child, “Kitties have feelings, too. You will not hit the kitty”? The answer in each case is, “Nothing!”

This man has no idea what he's talking about.  My wife and I have read the Positive Discipline books and it's the core of how we deal with our kids.  We most certainly don't ignore it (sigh).

Being firm does not mean spanking or using some other kind of physical coercion to get kids to stop behaving badly.  Spanking may stop behavior, yeah, but it's a "quick fix."  Beware of what "works."  As for "how hard the parent is supposed to work to avoid being the leader at home," wow, where to begin.

First off, "how hard!"  I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that being a parent was supposed to be easy.  What, your kids aren't worth the extra time and effort to make sure they grow up into kids who know what consequences are and experience both positive and negative consequences for their actions?  This, as opposed to kids who know how to "buck the system" and manipulate folks so they don't get punished?

Then, "avoiding being the leader."  Mmm.  Say my toddler is fixing to pitch a fit about dinner.  Her mother attempts to push her chair in to the table so she can reach; this, to the toddler, is unacceptable.  "Mommy, NO!  Push me back out!!" is the response.  As this is unacceptable in terms of how one speaks to an adult, we ask her to rephrase in a softer tone and with "Please" (kids can get caught in the moment and blurt out things, as apparently everyone but Dobson knows).  If she refuses or goes into a rage, we pick her up and take her into her room to pitch the aforementioned fit until she's ready to respond nicely (without crying).

Because we're consistent in this, it works 90 percent of the time.  Consequently, we often have very pleasant meals that are chock-full of "Mommy, could you please pass me a napkin?" and "Thank you for my water, Papi." (She's three, y'all).  She's already learning to give her baby sister distracting alternative toys to play with when baby is trying to disrupt what toddler is trying to do.  I do believe she has attempted to swat her sister once, and that was only when baby was less than a year old and grabbed a fistful of toddler's hair.  Which is understandable.  Mostly those two are thick as thieves.

Yes, there will come a day when they are supposed to obey authority figures without defiance, but for crying out loud, why would we expect from a three year old something reserved for folks much older than they?  "That day" has not yet come, so let's re-direct (yes, re-direction works, Dr. Dobson) and, if we are to teach them something, let us teach them that THEIR actions have their own consequences -- consequences which are often much less desirable than the fact that "the man in charge is gonna get me."
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« Reply #30 on: July 21, 2008, 02:53:06 PM »

This man has no idea what he's talking about.  My wife and I have read the Positive Discipline books and it's the core of how we deal with our kids.  We most certainly don't ignore it (sigh).

Being firm does not mean spanking or using some other kind of physical coercion to get kids to stop behaving badly.  Spanking may stop behavior, yeah, but it's a "quick fix."  Beware of what "works."  As for "how hard the parent is supposed to work to avoid being the leader at home," wow, where to begin.

First off, "how hard!"  I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that being a parent was supposed to be easy.  What, your kids aren't worth the extra time and effort to make sure they grow up into kids who know what consequences are and experience both positive and negative consequences for their actions?  This, as opposed to kids who know how to "buck the system" and manipulate folks so they don't get punished?

Then, "avoiding being the leader."  Mmm.  Say my toddler is fixing to pitch a fit about dinner.  Her mother attempts to push her chair in to the table so she can reach; this, to the toddler, is unacceptable.  "Mommy, NO!  Push me back out!!" is the response.  As this is unacceptable in terms of how one speaks to an adult, we ask her to rephrase in a softer tone and with "Please" (kids can get caught in the moment and blurt out things, as apparently everyone but Dobson knows).  If she refuses or goes into a rage, we pick her up and take her into her room to pitch the aforementioned fit until she's ready to respond nicely (without crying).

Because we're consistent in this, it works 90 percent of the time.  Consequently, we often have very pleasant meals that are chock-full of "Mommy, could you please pass me a napkin?" and "Thank you for my water, Papi." (She's three, y'all).  She's already learning to give her baby sister distracting alternative toys to play with when baby is trying to disrupt what toddler is trying to do.  I do believe she has attempted to swat her sister once, and that was only when baby was less than a year old and grabbed a fistful of toddler's hair.  Which is understandable.  Mostly those two are thick as thieves.

Yes, there will come a day when they are supposed to obey authority figures without defiance, but for crying out loud, why would we expect from a three year old something reserved for folks much older than they?  "That day" has not yet come, so let's re-direct (yes, re-direction works, Dr. Dobson) and, if we are to teach them something, let us teach them that THEIR actions have their own consequences -- consequences which are often much less desirable than the fact that "the man in charge is gonna get me."
I don't think everything Dobson says is crazy, but I do think that he can only see hands/belts hitting rumps as far as discipline is concerned. No thanks.
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« Reply #31 on: July 22, 2008, 11:08:30 AM »

I don't think everything Dobson says is crazy, but I do think that he can only see hands/belts hitting rumps as far as discipline is concerned. No thanks.

Exactly.  "Dobson has no idea what he's talking about with regard to the issue of Positive Discipline," I should have said, but he does have positive things to say in other areas.
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« Reply #32 on: July 22, 2008, 04:50:54 PM »

Exactly.  "Dobson has no idea what he's talking about with regard to the issue of Positive Discipline," I should have said, but he does have positive things to say in other areas.
Yep...
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« Reply #33 on: July 22, 2008, 07:48:29 PM »

Well, we've got four boys:  8 -> 4 -> 2 -> 1.


Spanking never worked.  It never worked on me when I was a kid.  We tried the time out garbage as well.  Our kids would sit there and be mad.  Never worked.

One day, when my oldest was in time out, my wife said, "What are you doing?  He's just stressed out because he doesn't get any exercise at school all day and he comes home anxious."  At first I thought it was an excuse.  Then she looked at him and said, "Ten push-ups!  Now!"  He looked at her like she was crazy, so she gave him fifteen for being too slow.  Once he was done counting "1 -ma'am, 2 ma'am . . . " his face changed, he listened to what we had to say and was focused enough to understand what we were saying. 

We've been doing it for over a year.  It rocks!  My son hates doing push-ups as punishment, but he doesn't mind showing off to his friends how easy it is to do 30 quick ones.  Even my one-year-old can do a mean push-up.  The boys are much more respectful and easy to control.  Ten push-ups at the store?  Sure!  Most people think it's great they get physical exercise and ask how we do it.  Of course, we live in Texas. 

Sometimes they get push-ups, sometimes sit-ups, pull-ups, etc.  We've found that it builds the boys morally (they focus much better on what they've done) and physically.  Of course everybody thinks our home life is somewhat Spartan - in the military sense.  The difference is the moral and emotional support they get.

Redirection?  Spanking?  Time out?

I'll let the professors and preachers do that stuff.
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« Reply #34 on: July 22, 2008, 07:49:23 PM »

If 'an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure', then maybe teaching our children propper manners is key.   Here's a very thorough and educational guide on the subject that I'm sure most of us can agree upon.
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« Reply #35 on: July 22, 2008, 08:55:46 PM »

cizinec - I very much like your technique!!! My dad tells me that as a kid he had a male teacher who would send all the boys (and any girls who wanted to) out to run laps when they got antsy. They came back ready to listen and learn. As a teacher I wish I could do that on a regular basis, but because I teach in an urban school, it takes a lot of academic time in the day to hike down the street to the park where they can run and not be run over by heavy traffic (and held up by many traffic lights), and therefore I couldn't pull it off much during the day exactly at the times I needed it (they do get almost daily P.E time as well as weekly outdoor education, but that's later in the day, not when I need it!).

If I had a yard, I'd have my boys run around in it, as one mom of 3 almost adult boys said to me, "A tired boy is a good boy". She's got a big yard and boxing set up in the garage. I'm not sure I could make them do push ups or whatever, but it can't hurt to try. Like I said, my eldest is possibly the most stubborn child I, and most others I know, have ever met. He comes by it honestly on both sides. I have set up our small space so the kids can run around like maniacs and not worry to much about damaging stuff or hurting themselves badly (it'll be many years before I get decent furniture), but it's too small for anyone over preschool age. Hhhmmmnnn, gotta make it work somehow...wait a minute, my husband was a competitive boxer long ago. I must make him set something up.

Sorry, out loud thinking...

Again cizinec, good on ya!
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« Reply #36 on: July 22, 2008, 08:59:31 PM »

Gabriel the Celt,

Thanks for the link - even if I'm not a Southerner  Smiley  (although part of my family is from there originally and I can't help my say "y'all come back now y'hear" all the time after hearing my Grandma say it for years), the info is good to have on hand.

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« Reply #37 on: July 22, 2008, 09:37:22 PM »

Gabriel the Celt,

Thanks for the link - 
Yes ma'am, you're welcome. Cheesy
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« Reply #38 on: July 22, 2008, 11:25:47 PM »

"A tired boy is a good boy".

I read that to my wife and we both fell over laughing.
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« Reply #39 on: July 23, 2008, 12:39:49 AM »

Well, we've got four boys:  8 -> 4 -> 2 -> 1.


Spanking never worked.  It never worked on me when I was a kid.  We tried the time out garbage as well.  Our kids would sit there and be mad.  Never worked.

One day, when my oldest was in time out, my wife said, "What are you doing?  He's just stressed out because he doesn't get any exercise at school all day and he comes home anxious."  At first I thought it was an excuse.  Then she looked at him and said, "Ten push-ups!  Now!"  He looked at her like she was crazy, so she gave him fifteen for being too slow.  Once he was done counting "1 -ma'am, 2 ma'am . . . " his face changed, he listened to what we had to say and was focused enough to understand what we were saying. 

We've been doing it for over a year.  It rocks!  My son hates doing push-ups as punishment, but he doesn't mind showing off to his friends how easy it is to do 30 quick ones.  Even my one-year-old can do a mean push-up.  The boys are much more respectful and easy to control.  Ten push-ups at the store?  Sure!  Most people think it's great they get physical exercise and ask how we do it.  Of course, we live in Texas. 

Sometimes they get push-ups, sometimes sit-ups, pull-ups, etc.  We've found that it builds the boys morally (they focus much better on what they've done) and physically.  Of course everybody thinks our home life is somewhat Spartan - in the military sense.  The difference is the moral and emotional support they get.

Redirection?  Spanking?  Time out?

I'll let the professors and preachers do that stuff.

Push-ups are great form of discipline. My older son had a bad attitude in swimming one day and complained to the coach about the workout. He told him,"Coach, this workout sucks!" So the coach told him he was not allowed to use that kind of language on the team. The coach made him get out of the pool and do thirty push-ups. Other times he has had him swim extra laps for poor behavior. I think boys respond well to physical activity as a form of discipline.  Smiley
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« Reply #40 on: October 27, 2008, 06:23:31 PM »

I don't know, am I unique or what... My wife and I never had to discipline our daughter when she was growing up. I mean it - never, not once. We never even had to think about the form of discipline to use, because our daughter just didn't do anything that would warrant any disciplinary measures. Ever. She was always very reasonable and positive and honest. We could leave her at home alone for a while and she would never do anything silly. We could also leave her to play with another little girl who was kind of on the wild side (very noisy, hyperactive), but again, our daughter only had a kind of "calming down" influence on that other kid. And she was always a top student at school, from kindergarten on.

She only was a bit secretive and harsh with us (this "what do you know - go away!" attitude) very briefly when she was in her late teens (17-19, the last year of her high school and her freshman college year). At 20, she became a very normal and good human being again. Smiley.
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« Reply #41 on: October 27, 2008, 06:37:14 PM »

She only was a bit secretive and harsh with us (this "what do you know - go away!" attitude) very briefly when she was in her late teens (17-19, the last year of her high school and her freshman college year). At 20, she became a very normal and good human being again. Smiley.
Sounds right on cue with her developmental milestones!
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« Reply #42 on: October 28, 2008, 08:09:28 AM »

I don't know, am I unique or what... My wife and I never had to discipline our daughter when she was growing up. I mean it - never, not once. We never even had to think about the form of discipline to use, because our daughter just didn't do anything that would warrant any disciplinary measures. Ever. She was always very reasonable and positive and honest. We could leave her at home alone for a while and she would never do anything silly. We could also leave her to play with another little girl who was kind of on the wild side (very noisy, hyperactive), but again, our daughter only had a kind of "calming down" influence on that other kid. And she was always a top student at school, from kindergarten on.

She only was a bit secretive and harsh with us (this "what do you know - go away!" attitude) very briefly when she was in her late teens (17-19, the last year of her high school and her freshman college year). At 20, she became a very normal and good human being again. Smiley.

You are a lucky, lucky man.  Wink  Already Caitlin is showing signs of mischief.  If I say to her, "No, don't touch that!"  she'll hover her hand over the object and giggle.  I was the same way when I was little, so I guess it's my payback time.  Smiley
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« Reply #43 on: October 28, 2008, 10:39:25 AM »

I learned nothing from spankings except to try and avoid them as a child. A spanking never taught me what was right or wrong, it just taught me not to get caught. Kids aren't dogs, there is no logical connection in their minds between "wrong" and "spanking". The only thing parents teach their kids when they spank them is that they have power over them. It doesn't work.

Every child is different,just like in management,we learn that every employee is different. Each has different motivations. Some are motivated by praise, others by reinforcement, some by monetary rewards, others by discipline. Just because something does not work for you, do not be too quick to say it will not work for others. Clearly different methods have, do, and will continue to work for different kinds of people.
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« Reply #44 on: October 28, 2008, 10:51:07 AM »

I don't know, am I unique or what... My wife and I never had to discipline our daughter when she was growing up. I mean it - never, not once. We never even had to think about the form of discipline to use, because our daughter just didn't do anything that would warrant any disciplinary measures. Ever. She was always very reasonable and positive and honest. We could leave her at home alone for a while and she would never do anything silly. We could also leave her to play with another little girl who was kind of on the wild side (very noisy, hyperactive), but again, our daughter only had a kind of "calming down" influence on that other kid. And she was always a top student at school, from kindergarten on.

She only was a bit secretive and harsh with us (this "what do you know - go away!" attitude) very briefly when she was in her late teens (17-19, the last year of her high school and her freshman college year). At 20, she became a very normal and good human being again. Smiley.

You are a lucky, lucky man.  Wink  Already Caitlin is showing signs of mischief.  If I say to her, "No, don't touch that!"  she'll hover her hand over the object and giggle.  I was the same way when I was little, so I guess it's my payback time.  Smiley

Well, maybe she is just very little right now. Our Maryana also had her moments of mischief when she was about 2 y.o. Or maybe it wasn't miscief but simply a somewhat strange (for us, adults) form of learning. For example, she would approach a poodle of water in the yeard and splash it, stomping her little foot on it. Her mom would come to her and say, "Don't splash!" And in just a few hours, or the next day, we would see her standing near that poodle, stomping her foot repeatedly, splashing the water and saying, every time, in a very "mentorial," "didactical" voice, like she was instructing somebody: "DON'T SPLASH!" (splash) SON'T SPLASH! (splash) I TOLD YOU, DON'T SPASH!"  Grin
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