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Author Topic: Sinlessness of Mary  (Read 4632 times) Average Rating: 0
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Justin Kissel
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« on: October 24, 2008, 09:24:10 PM »

Our new member got me thinking... according to what I've read, the Orthodox Church affirms that Mary was sinless during her life. How can this be reconciled with Scriptures such as the following:

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" - Rom. 3:23

"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." - 1 John 1:8

Are these verses just about humanity generally, with the Theotokos being the sole exception (besides Jesus Christ of course)?
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« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2008, 09:25:25 PM »

Nope many fathers say that she sinned in minute ways. What the RCC would classify as veinal sins.
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« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2008, 09:41:46 PM »

Then what's with the "Mary was born with sin, but chose not to sin" that I've often read on here?
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« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2008, 09:42:57 PM »

We also know that only one is Holy but then go and talk about all sorts of Holy people.

Only Christ is sinless per se; the Theotokos is sinless as a result of His good pleasure.
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« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2008, 09:44:19 PM »

She is "All-Blameless", "Most Holy", "Most Pure" according to our hymnography, which doesn't necessarily mean "never voluntarily or involuntarily sinned", but that God counts her "Blameless".
I hope, when I die, people don't make lists of my sins Wink
At any rate, I've added a few tags to this thread which link to some other threads on the subject.
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« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2008, 09:50:10 PM »

Then what's with the "Mary was born with sin, but chose not to sin" that I've often read on here?
No one is born guilty of sin. Adam and Eve bore the guilt of the Ancestral Sin, we just bore the consequences of it, that is, we live under the conditions of the Fall. The Theotokos also lived under the conditions of the Fall- hence, she was subject to death, as was Christ. But we would never say that the Human Nature of Christ was guilty of the Ancestral Sin- only that He was voluntarily subject to the conditions of the Fall caused by it, and that the Theotokos was involuntarily subject to the same conditions of the Fall caused by the Ancestral Sin.
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« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2008, 09:54:06 PM »

Do Orthodox Christians believe we are born with a fallen nature that has difficulty avoiding sin?
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« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2008, 09:55:20 PM »

Do Orthodox Christians believe we are born with a fallen nature that has difficulty avoiding sin?
That is my understanding, because if we didn't we would be like Pelagius.
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« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2008, 09:57:03 PM »

Did Mary have this same fallen nature?
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« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2008, 10:05:11 PM »

Did Mary have this same fallen nature?

She has to or she wouldn't be human.
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« Reply #10 on: October 24, 2008, 10:05:42 PM »

Did Mary have this same fallen nature?
Yes she did. And in our Compline prayer to the Theotokos, we say “thy glorious birth-giving has united God the Word to man and joined the fallen nature of our race to heavenly things.”
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« Reply #11 on: October 24, 2008, 10:07:27 PM »

I think Mary did have the same fallen nature as the rest of humanity.  However she was chosen to be the Mother of our Saviour because she was, is the most holy of women (or men...except Jesus).
 
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« Reply #12 on: October 24, 2008, 10:07:57 PM »

Did Mary have this same fallen nature?

She has to or she wouldn't be human.
This is not a challenge but being fallend is not what makes us human. Adam and Eve were human before the fall.
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« Reply #13 on: October 24, 2008, 10:08:34 PM »

If Christ was Perfect God and Perfect Man, wouldn't it be important that His Mother was a real human being ?
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« Reply #14 on: October 24, 2008, 10:08:49 PM »

Did Mary have this same fallen nature?
Yes she did. And in our Compline prayer to the Theotokos, we say “thy glorious birth-giving has united God the Word to man and joined the fallen nature of our race to heavenly things.”
Interesting point.
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« Reply #15 on: October 24, 2008, 10:10:02 PM »

If Christ was Perfect God and Perfect Man, wouldn't it be important that His Mother was a real human being ?
Again, not a challenge, but being fallen does not make us human. Adam and Ever were not created fallen. Please don't think I am trying to argue. I have really come to appreciate Eastern Orthodoxy. I am just discussing.
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« Reply #16 on: October 24, 2008, 10:10:23 PM »

Did Mary have this same fallen nature?

She has to or she wouldn't be human.
This is not a challenge but being fallend is not what makes us human. Adam and Eve were human before the fall.

Sorry Papist. What I meant was she wouldn't be human if she didn't have the same fallen nature that we all had. Sorry for the misunderstanding I did not mean to equate fallen nature with being human.
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« Reply #17 on: October 24, 2008, 10:10:48 PM »

Wish I could see Her as you guys do... Sad That's one thing I've always had trouble with...that, and falling in love with Christ. It seems so foreign to me still. Undecided
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« Reply #18 on: October 24, 2008, 10:12:04 PM »

Did Mary have this same fallen nature?

She has to or she wouldn't be human.
This is not a challenge but being fallend is not what makes us human. Adam and Eve were human before the fall.

Sorry Papist. What I meant was she wouldn't be human if she didn't have the same fallen nature that we all had. Sorry for the misunderstanding I did not mean to equate fallen nature with being human.
I understand. Thank you for your responses.
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« Reply #19 on: October 24, 2008, 10:12:32 PM »

Thank you all for being patient with me. I want to see Orthodoxy on its own terms.
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« Reply #20 on: October 24, 2008, 10:14:03 PM »

prodomos, you said what I meant. Regarding Myrrh's remark about "falling in love with Christ"-is this an Orthodox approach? Sorry Myrrh, not to pick on you at all, I've just had discussions on this before with Protestants...
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« Reply #21 on: October 24, 2008, 10:15:12 PM »

Nah, s'cool, Rose! Smiley
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« Reply #22 on: October 24, 2008, 10:17:03 PM »

IMHO it would seem pointless for Mary to be exempt from sin involuntarily (born that way).  I personally find solace in the beauty of Mary choosing not to sin to please God versus being sort of superhuman.

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« Reply #23 on: October 24, 2008, 10:21:10 PM »

IMHO it would seem pointless for Mary to be exempt from sin involuntarily (born that way).  I personally find solace in the beauty of Mary choosing not to sin to please God versus being sort of superhuman.

Juliana

But the Orthodox Church believes Mary didn't sin majorly, right? So, She was still a sinner....er.. Undecided
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« Reply #24 on: October 24, 2008, 10:22:21 PM »

I have heard Fr. Ambrose argue that Mary NEVER sinned.
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« Reply #25 on: October 24, 2008, 10:23:14 PM »

Again, not a challenge, but being fallen does not make us human. Adam and Ever were not created fallen. Please don't think I am trying to argue. I have really come to appreciate Eastern Orthodoxy. I am just discussing.
Actually, since the Ancestral Sin, being human makes us fallen. It is now unavoidable but not unredeemable.
In his reply to Apollinarius, St. Gregory the Theologian said the now famous Christological phrase: "What is not assumed, is not redeemed". In other words had Christ not assumed the conditions of the Fall, he could not have redeemed us from them. The prelapsarian Human Nature had no need of redemption, the Fallen human nature did. Christ met us where we were, to bring us to where He wants us to be.
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« Reply #26 on: October 24, 2008, 10:26:48 PM »

Again, not a challenge, but being fallen does not make us human. Adam and Ever were not created fallen. Please don't think I am trying to argue. I have really come to appreciate Eastern Orthodoxy. I am just discussing.
Actually, since the Ancestral Sin, being human makes us fallen. It is now unavoidable but not unredeemable.
In his reply to Apollinarius, St. Gregory the Theologian said the now famous Christological phrase: "What is not assumed, is not redeemed". In other words had Christ not assumed the conditions of the Fall, he could not have redeemed us from them. The prelapsarian Human Nature had no need of redemption, the Fallen human nature did. Christ met us where we were, to bring us to where He wants us to be.
Do you believe that Christ had to work to avoid sin then?
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« Reply #27 on: October 24, 2008, 10:39:27 PM »

Do you believe that Christ had to work to avoid sin then?
Christ was tempted. Yet He also had Two Wills in perfect accord with each other. As Man, His sweat fell as drops of blood in agony at His coming Passion and Death (Luke 22:44), and yet chose the Divine Will and accepted them (Luke 22:42). Yes, He as Man had to work at it- so hard that "his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground..."
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« Reply #28 on: October 24, 2008, 11:44:19 PM »

IMHO it would seem pointless for Mary to be exempt from sin involuntarily (born that way).  I personally find solace in the beauty of Mary choosing not to sin to please God versus being sort of superhuman.

We also think she chose. But we also believe that she would not have been free to choose owing to the depravity of human nature resulting from the Fall. What her Immaculate Conception did was restore her soul (through the merits of Christ) so that she was free to make that choice saying Fiat to God and not sinning.
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« Reply #29 on: October 24, 2008, 11:49:57 PM »

Nope many fathers say that she sinned in minute ways. What the RCC would classify as veinal sins.

But St. Ephrem the Syrian says that Mary was "all-pure, all-immaculate, all-stainless, all-undefiled, all-incorrupt, all-inviolate."

St. Ambrose of Milan says that Mary was "inviolate, free of every stain of sin."

As Ozgeorge says, "Sin is sin." So for Orthodox, "venial sins" put Mary in the same place as mortal sins. Every sin is a "no" to God.

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« Reply #30 on: October 24, 2008, 11:56:40 PM »

We also think she chose. But we also believe that she would not have been free to choose owing to the depravity of human nature resulting from the Fall. What her Immaculate Conception did was restore her soul (through the merits of Christ) so that she was free to make that choice saying Fiat to God and not sinning.

Of course, she was still subject to the cosmic consequences of the Fall---death. Like George said, Christ voluntarily accepted these consequences, Mary was subject to them even though she was sinless. Of course, we baptized Christians, though now redeemed, are also subject to them.
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« Reply #31 on: October 25, 2008, 01:11:11 AM »

Holy Fathers are great and all, but when it comes to a Protestant, I always like to give this verse:

Romans 5
12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
NKJV

Unfortunately, there's something wrong with this verse.  I've seen the way St. John Chrysostom reads verse 14 a little different than the NKJV confusion.  So I'm assuming the Greek would read:

Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses (even over those who had not sinned) according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. (notice the parantheses). 

So it seems St. Paul believed there's a difference between "Original Sin" and the act of sinning.  When "all have sinned," it's equivalent to falling short to the grace of God.  But then he adds a disclaimer that even those who have not done sins, which may include people like the Theotokos.

So, maybe this could clear things up.  Smiley
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« Reply #32 on: October 25, 2008, 11:44:05 AM »

The first prohecy regarding the Theotokos placed her in a unique category.  "I will put enmity between you and the woman.."

If we can't explain how a Virgin conceived God in the Flesh and her womb became more spacious than the heavens...why crush our minds with questions about her utter holiness to which the Angels themselves are blinded and only stand in awe at God's wisdom past understanding?
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« Reply #33 on: February 12, 2009, 11:13:25 PM »

"Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.  Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come." 

So it seems St. Paul believed there's a difference between "Original Sin" and the act of sinning.  When "all have sinned," it's equivalent to falling short to the grace of God.  But then he adds a disclaimer that even those who have not done sins, which may include people like the Theotokos.

Well, in any translation the verse pretty clearly states that those not under the law (READ: GENTILES) were not held guilty for breaking the law, because they did not know the law.  So they were not willfully disobedient, hence not guilty of sin in the same way that Adam was.  This text is of no help to Protestants.
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« Reply #34 on: February 12, 2009, 11:18:39 PM »

I resurrected this thread because my wife asked me today if I believed that Mary is sinless.  She got upset with me because I bought an icon of the Theotokos in the burning bush with the Christ-child.  I tried to explain its symbolism and its significance as a foreshadowing of the coming of Christ, like with Abraham and Isaac for example.  So then she throws this question out, and I was a bit taken aback.

I told her that I simply did not know, and that the belief is not necessary to be Orthodox, but that I did believe that she remained a virgin all of her life.  This opened the door to another conversation that I decided would be best not to have right now.  I don't want to overwhelm her with too much information or too much that she will disagree with.

Anyway, was my response correct?  It seemed like the best way to handle the question...
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« Reply #35 on: February 13, 2009, 12:38:06 AM »

I resurrected this thread because my wife asked me today if I believed that Mary is sinless.  She got upset with me because I bought an icon of the Theotokos in the burning bush with the Christ-child.  I tried to explain its symbolism and its significance as a foreshadowing of the coming of Christ, like with Abraham and Isaac for example.  So then she throws this question out, and I was a bit taken aback.

I told her that I simply did not know, and that the belief is not necessary to be Orthodox, but that I did believe that she remained a virgin all of her life.  This opened the door to another conversation that I decided would be best not to have right now.  I don't want to overwhelm her with too much information or too much that she will disagree with.

Anyway, was my response correct?  It seemed like the best way to handle the question...

Yes.

As for sinlessness of Mary, she was subject to Original Sin, which is why we commemorate her death.
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« Reply #36 on: February 13, 2009, 07:25:16 AM »

I have heard Fr. Ambrose argue that Mary NEVER sinned.

I believe that and I believe that it is the teaching of the Church.

We can however find two or three early Church Fathers who believed that she sinned... one is Saint John Chrysostom who thought she committed the sin of presumption when she used her maternal influence with her Son to cause Him to work the miracle before His time over the water jars at Cana and to reveal Himself earlier than planned.  The sudden appearance of a quite enormous quantity of the finest wine in the world did not go unnoticed!!  Another is (Saint Basil the Great? need to check which Father) who believed that she sinned by doubt at the time when Symeon was prophesying in the temple of the future fate of her baby Son.

But it is important to point out that these were opinions of two or three Fathers which were not accepted by the Church into her sacred tradition.  The Fathers after all may be mistaken on some points; none are infallible.

It sometimes happens that converts today discover these minor anomalies and get a tad excited about them.  Probably because they see them as some sort of distinction from Roman Catholicism.  Wink
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« Reply #37 on: February 13, 2009, 07:34:06 AM »

Of course, she was still subject to the cosmic consequences of the Fall---death. Like George said, Christ voluntarily accepted these consequences, Mary was subject to them even though she was sinless.

I find the Catholic teaching on this point inconsistent...

So there is an important distinction between original sin and the stain of original sin.

Original sin (committed by the primal couple) means that all humans suffer from the "stains" of original sin, that is

(1) death; and

(2) concupiscence.

Mary was preserved from stain #2 (concupiscence) but not stain #1 (death.)

Would that be a correct interpretation of the Latin dogma?

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« Reply #38 on: February 13, 2009, 04:00:22 PM »

The Orthodox and Catholic views of "fallen nature" are a bit different and need to be clarified I think. Because that is one aspect that the Orthodox and Catholic churches disagree on.
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« Reply #39 on: February 14, 2009, 12:07:19 PM »

Of course, she was still subject to the cosmic consequences of the Fall---death. Like George said, Christ voluntarily accepted these consequences, Mary was subject to them even though she was sinless.

I find the Catholic teaching on this point inconsistent...

So there is an important distinction between original sin and the stain of original sin.

Original sin (committed by the primal couple) means that all humans suffer from the "stains" of original sin, that is

(1) death; and

(2) concupiscence.

Mary was preserved from stain #2 (concupiscence) but not stain #1 (death.)

Would that be a correct interpretation of the Latin dogma?


Sort of Death is not the stain of Orginal sin though. Concsupiscence is the actual stain. Death is a result of the stain. In the Case of the Theotokos, she did not inherit concupiscence. Thus, her death was not a result of the concupicsence but, rather, a result of her life being conformed perfectly to her son, so much so that she died. "A sword will pierce your heart too"
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« Reply #40 on: April 05, 2009, 04:42:00 AM »

This is an interesting thread. Coming from Protestantism, I too am interested to know whether or not Mary is considered to be sinless by most Orthodox. But perhaps it is best just to answer the question by proclaiming and affirming her titles. Here are some of the titles and attributes ascribed to her in Our Ethiopian Orthodox Church's "WUDASSE MARIYAM: Hymns of Praise to the Holy Virgin Mary":

"Thou was called the 'Holy of Holies'"

"Ever-pure Bearer of God"

"Thou art 'The Sanctuary'"

"Thou art the 'Urn of God' or the 'Holy Golden Pot'"

"Thou art the 'Golden Candlestick'"

"Thou art the 'Censer of Gold'"

"Thou art the 'Garden of Delight'"

"Beautiful Dove"

"Thou art like the rod of Aaron"

"Thou art greater than the high priest and thou art more honorable than the prophets."

"In thee there is majesty of appearance which is greater than the majesty of the Seraphim and Cherubim."

"Thou art the 'Glory of Our Race.'"

"Thou art 'She Who Must Beg for Life for Our Souls.'"

"The Perfect (or absolute) Virgin."

"Thou art 'The Ladder Reaching from Heaven to Earth' on which the angels of God do ascend and descend, which Jacob saw."

"Thou art 'The Burning Bush'"

"Thou art that 'Field Wherein no Seed was Sown,' and yet from thee came forth the Fruit of Life."

"Thou art the 'Treasure House' which Joseph bought and found therein a pearl, a precious gem, that is Eyesus Kristos our Redeemer."

"The Joy to the Angels"

"Thou art worthy to be called the 'God-Bearer.'"

"The Mother of All Living Beings"

"The Spiritual Mountain"

"The greatness of the Virgin whom God has chosen is beyond ayone to describe."

"Thou art symbolized in the pure twig and true vessel representing the Right Faith of the saints, our Fathers."

"The 'Mother of the Resplendent Light.'"

"Pure Virgin, Mother of the Light"

"The Throne of the King Whom the Cherubim Carry"

"Second Heaven upon the Earth"

"The Gate that Lets in the Rising Sun"

"The Pure Bride Chamber of the Holy Bridegroom"

"Country of God"

"The Abode of All Who Rejoice"

"Thou art the 'True Cloud' and hast shown us the water from the rain."

"The Spotless Virgin"

"O Pure Mariyam in whom there is no blemish"

"O undefiled Vessel that is perfect and spotless"

"O Garden that is endowed with reason"

"Thou art 'The Beauty of Praise'"

"O Thorn-bush, who was not consumed by the fire of the Godhead"

"O Maid and Virgin Mother, heaven and the heavenly, who carried in thine own body Him Who is born aloft on the Cherubim."

"The Glory of Mariyam is greater than all of the saints."

"She was worthy to receive the Word of the Father."

"Greater is she than the Cherubim and superior to the Seraphim, for she became the Ark (or Tabernacle) of One of the Holy Trinity."

"She is Jerusalem, the land of the prophets and the joyful habitation of all the saints."

"Ezekiel the Prophet testified concerning her and said, 'I see a sealed door in the east, sealed with a great and wonderful seal, and no one save the God of Powers has entered through it. He has gone in through it and came out.' (Ezekiel 43:4-5; 44:13)"

"The Virgin is the Door who brought the Redeemer ot us, and after bringing Him forth, she remained a virgin."

"Thou art complete and Blessed, for thou found grace from the King of Glory Who is God in Truth."

"Praise and glory belong to thee all the more from all who dwell upon the earth."   

"The Bush which Moses saw burning in the desert with its wood remaining unconsumed signifies Mariyam, the Spotless Virgin."

"On account of Eve was the door of the Garden shut up, and through Mariyam the Virgin it is opened to us again and we are permitted to eat of the Tree of Life in the Holy Body and Precious Blood of Christ."

"After she brought Him forth, her virginity was not lost, and it became manifest that she was the Bearer of God."

"From woman was given the Lord, the word of the Father, Who is called Emmanuel. On account of this we beseech her at all times to intercede on our behalf to her Beloved son for the forgiveness of our sins."

"She was beneficent towards all the saints and patriarchs in that she brought to them Him for Whom they awaited; and she brought to the prophets Him Whose coming they prohesied; and to the apostles she brought Him in Whose name they were to preach to all the ends of the world. From her came forth Him for Whom the martyrs and the faithful were to undergo struggle, that is Eyesus Kristos."

"Thou alone, O Lady who brought forth God, art the 'Mother of Light.'"

"Blessed art thou, 'Greater than the Heavens and Higher than the earth.'"

"Thou transcends the conception of every mind, O Mariyam the Virgin. Who is able to describe thy greatness, for there is none with whom thou may be compared. The angels magnify thee and the Seraphim praise thee."

"Greater art thou than all women who have received grace and honor."

"O Mariyam, the Bearer of God, 'The Spiritual City wherein God the Most High took up His abode.'"

"Mariyam the Virgin is 'The Vessel of Priceless Ointment,' 'The Fountainhead (or spring) of the Water of Life. The fruit of her womb has saved the whole world."

"The Trusted Advocate of the Human Race"

"Honored art thou by all, thou who hast become 'The Dwelling Place of the Word of the Father.'"

"Thou art the tent which is pitched, which gathers together the Christian people and teaches them to worship the Life-giving Trinity."

"Thou hast born the Pillar of Fire which Moses saw, even the Son of God Who came and dwelt in thy womb."

"Thou became the Ark for Him Who created heaven and earth, which the earth cannot contain."

"Thou art 'The Ladder which Leads to Heaven.'"

"Thou art brighter than the sun."

"Thou art the Eastern Horizon where rises the brilliant star Whose appearance the saints awaited with joy and gladness."

"Pure and Bright art thou in everything, O Holy One, worthy of all praise. Thou who hast held the Lord in thine arms."

"Rejoice, thou who art full of grace. We marvel at thy greatness, O devoted Virgin, and we ascribe joy to thee with the Angel Gabriel; for the Fruit of thy womb is the source of salvation for our race, and has brought us nigh unto God His Father."

"Thou art 'The Young Shoot from the Root of David.'"

"Thou became 'The Second Heaven on Earth' thou 'Spotless God-Bearer.'"

"Thou art 'The Tent of the Holy of Holies' wherein the Ark which was covered all over with plates of gold and had therein the Tablets of the Covenant and the golden urn with the manna signifying the Son of God."

"Rejoice thou 'Garden Paradise' which provides for the Lamb that speaks, even the Son of the Father who abides forever."

"Thou art called 'The Mother of Kristos the King.'"

"Thou art 'The Ladder' on which Jacob saw the Son of God; for thou carried in thy womb Him Who could not be touched."

"Thou hast become 'Our Intercessor to Our Lord Eyesus Kristos,' Who was incarnate of thee for our salvation."

"O Blessed and Undefiled Bride Chamber."

"The Unblemished Virgin"

"The Undefiled Vessel"

"The Glory of All the World"

"The Light which Shall Never be Put Out"

"The Shrine which Shall Never be Abandoned"

"Staff of the Faith"

"The Never Failing Support of the Saints"

O Our Lady, the Virgin Saint Mariyam, in St. Gabriels greetings: 'Peace be unto you.' Holy and pure, O Mother of the Almighty God: 'Peace be unto you." Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the Fruit of thy womb. Hail Mary, full of grace, pray for us before Our Lord Jesus Christ that He may forgive us for our sins.

Besime Ab, WeWolde, WeMenfesQidus, Ahadu Amlak, -Amen-

Selam
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« Reply #41 on: April 05, 2009, 05:54:32 AM »

Nope many fathers say that she sinned in minute ways. What the RCC would classify as veinal sins.

But St. Ephrem the Syrian says that Mary was "all-pure, all-immaculate, all-stainless, all-undefiled, all-incorrupt, all-inviolate."

St. Ambrose of Milan says that Mary was "inviolate, free of every stain of sin."

As Ozgeorge says, "Sin is sin." So for Orthodox, "venial sins" put Mary in the same place as mortal sins. Every sin is a "no" to God.

My personal opinion is that Mary is all-stainless , all-undefiled , all-pure , Immaculated , Blessed between women . She is the most clean among women . Could a woman who has known sins , or sinned gave birth to Jesus ? Could a sinner bear the one that the skies can`t bear ? My personal opinion is that Mary didn`t sin . She was a perfect woman , She represents the model of a perfect woman , the just woman after the heart of God . In our romanian chanting we say : Cea pururea curata si prea nevinovata . Wich means ever cleaned and without guilt . Thought we are all in debt with an death . Even the two witness of God , the ones that were moved in the skies will come on earth to preach the new gospel and to turn the heart of people back to God , and will come for this , to die . The subject of the death of all is as it is written in Romans 5 : 12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. As David also yells in the psalms , in the psalm of repantence and crying : cause in sins my mother has begotten me. For this fact we all needed a Saviour : Jesus Christ . In Adam we all die , and in Jesus we all resurrect and inherit eternal life . Let`s not forget that untill Jesus died no one enter into heaven , into the eternal gates  , no one had access to the tree of Life , because it was guard by cheruvims with an golden sword . And as in Luke 1 says : 46And Mary said:
   "My soul glorifies the Lord
    47and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
 48for he has been mindful
      of the humble state of his servant.
This is what Mary said . Also let`s not forget the salute of the angel : Hail Mary (Ave Maria) , blessed are you beyong the womans . Mary as all humanity sinned in Adam . All born from man seed inherit the sin of Adam trought wich all die . So did Mary , for this She needed a Saviour . But She is a Chosen Woman , Clean and pure . Let us remmeber though that Jesus was not born from men seed . He was born from Mother without Father , And from Father without Mother . So He inherited only the resemblance as the fallen nature of Adam , the predisposition of sin . He was not the snake , but resembled with the snake , cause He had no sin . In here I speak of the sneak lifted by Moses in the desert , wich is a prefiguration of Jesus crucification . Also in romanian chanting we say about Mary : Ceea ce esti mai marita decat heruvimii si mai cinstita fara de asemanare decat serafimii . wich means :You are greater than cheruvims and more honoured than the seraphims . Peace


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