Was Mary sinless?

[Carico]

Do Catholics believe that Mary was born sinless? If so, then since God is the only one who is sinless, then the Catholics must think that Mary is God. If so, then since Mary isn't included in the trinity, then the Catholics worship 2 Gods which breaks the first two commandments.  Otherwise, how do you explain your claims?

[PeterTheAleut]

Do Catholics believe that Mary was born sinless? If so, then since God is the only one who is sinless, then the Catholics must think that Mary is God. If so, then since Mary isn't included in the trinity, then the Catholics worship 2 Gods which breaks the first two commandments.  Otherwise, how do you explain your claims?

Whom do you think we are?

[Carico]

Do Catholics believe that Mary was born sinless? If so, then since God is the only one who is sinless, then the Catholics must think that Mary is God. If so, then since Mary isn't included in the trinity, then the Catholics worship 2 Gods which breaks the first two commandments.  Otherwise, how do you explain your claims?

Whom do you think we are?

Off-topic. Please respond to the OP. 

[ytterbiumanalyst]

Do Catholics believe that Mary was born sinless? If so, then since God is the only one who is sinless, then the Catholics must think that Mary is God. If so, then since Mary isn't included in the trinity, then the Catholics worship 2 Gods which breaks the first two commandments.  Otherwise, how do you explain your claims?

Whom do you think we are?

Off-topic. Please respond to the OP. 

Your question seems to have little to do with Orthodox or Protestants. Please respond to the moderator.

--YtterbiumAnalyst
Orthodox-Protestant Discussion Section Moderator

[Carico]

Do Catholics believe that Mary was born sinless? If so, then since God is the only one who is sinless, then the Catholics must think that Mary is God. If so, then since Mary isn't included in the trinity, then the Catholics worship 2 Gods which breaks the first two commandments.  Otherwise, how do you explain your claims?

Whom do you think we are?

Off-topic. Please respond to the OP. 

Nice dodge. But it still doesn't justify your beliefs. Sorry. 

Your question seems to have little to do with Orthodox or Protestants. Please respond to the moderator.

--YtterbiumAnalyst
Orthodox-Protestant Discussion Section Moderator

[PeterTheAleut]

Off-topic. Please respond to the OP. 

No.  If you mistake us for Roman Catholics, which you apparently do, then my question is very much on topic.  Whom do you think we are?

[Carico]

Off-topic. Please respond to the OP. 

No.  If you mistake us for Roman Catholics, which you apparently do, then my question is very much on topic.  Whom do you think we are?

Your answers will tell me. 

[PeterTheAleut]

Do Catholics believe that Mary was born sinless? If so, then since God is the only one who is sinless, then the Catholics must think that Mary is God. If so, then since Mary isn't included in the trinity, then the Catholics worship 2 Gods which breaks the first two commandments.  Otherwise, how do you explain your claims?

Whom do you think we are?

Off-topic. Please respond to the OP. 

Your question seems to have little to do with Orthodox or Protestants. Please respond to the moderator.

--YtterbiumAnalyst
Orthodox-Protestant Discussion Section Moderator

Nice dodge. But it still doesn't justify your beliefs. Sorry. 

So the formal request of this board's moderator is dodging the question?

[GabrieltheCelt]

Carico,

 I'd like to welcome you to the forum, but just to be clear: this is an Eastern Orthodox forum and NOT a Roman Catholic forum.  Your questions suggest that you have little understanding of the two.

In Christ,
Gabriel

[PeterTheAleut]

Off-topic. Please respond to the OP. 

No.  If you mistake us for Roman Catholics, which you apparently do, then my question is very much on topic.  Whom do you think we are?

Your answers will tell me. 

Look, you have two moderators requesting formally that you answer my question.  Either answer my question directly with a clear statement of what you think us to be, or stop posting on this thread.

[prodromas]

Do Catholics believe that Mary was born sinless? If so, then since God is the only one who is sinless, then the Catholics must think that Mary is God. If so, then since Mary isn't included in the trinity, then the Catholics worship 2 Gods which breaks the first two commandments.  Otherwise, how do you explain your claims?

What happens if we told you we have a completely different understanding of sin then the legalistic action against God.

[ytterbiumanalyst]

Off-topic. Please respond to the OP. 

No.  If you mistake us for Roman Catholics, which you apparently do, then my question is very much on topic.  Whom do you think we are?

Your answers will tell me. 

Please see this rule re: a request made by a moderator. PetertheAleut requested that you provide him with relevant information; please comply with his request.

[Carico]

Off-topic. Please respond to the OP. 

No.  If you mistake us for Roman Catholics, which you apparently do, then my question is very much on topic.  Whom do you think we are?

Your answers will tell me. 

Please see this rule re: a request made by a moderator. PetertheAleut requested that you provide him with relevant information; please comply with his request.

I can't answer the question until you tell me who you are. But if you want to leave that vague, then of course, neither I, nor anyone can know who you are. So will you answer my question honestly? if not, then I can't answer your question either. Sorry. 

 Publicly refusing to comply with an official request from a moderator.

[PeterTheAleut]

Please see this rule re: a request made by a moderator. PetertheAleut requested that you provide him with relevant information; please comply with his request.

I can't answer the question until you tell me who you are. But if you want to leave that vague, then of course, neither I, nor anyone can know who you are. So will you answer my question honestly? if not, then neither can I answer your question. Sorry. 

You come to an Orthodox Christian discussion forum and mistake us for Roman Catholics?  Seriously now, if you're going to walk in here looking to pick a fight with us, the least you can do is a bit of research to see that we're not Roman Catholics and do not believe as they do.

[Carico]

Please see this rule re: a request made by a moderator. PetertheAleut requested that you provide him with relevant information; please comply with his request.

I can't answer the question until you tell me who you are. But if you want to leave that vague, then of course, neither I, nor anyone can know who you are. So will you answer my question honestly? if not, then neither can I answer your question. Sorry. 

You come to an Orthodox Christian discussion forum and mistake us for Roman Catholics?  Seriously now, if you're going to walk in here looking to pick a fight with us, the least you can do is a bit of research to see that we're not Roman Catholics and do not believe as they do.

If you say you aren't Catholics, then I don't know who you are. If you won't tell me who you are then I can't know who you are. So why are you refusing to tell me who you are then blaming me for not knowing who you are?    Is it some sort of secret? if so, why? 

[ozgeorge]

Do Catholics believe that Mary was born sinless?

Why don't you ask the Catholics?

[Papist]

This thread is weird... but yes Catholics believe that Mary was concieved without original sin.

[Carico]

Do Catholics believe that Mary was born sinless?

Why don't you ask the Catholics?

Because I don't play telephone. I'd rather hear it from you yourselves...unless you're ashamed of your beliefs. I thought you could give me an honest answer, but it appears I was wrong. So if this indirect relating is an example of your religion, then I can tell you right now, your religion is not about honesty.

[Αριστοκλής]

This thread is weird...

It surely is. I think the tag is on the money.

We, Orthodox, have discussed this here before. If OP can't do a search and find the threads, his keyboard should be taken away.

At this point...this is pointless.

[PeterTheAleut]

If you say you aren't Catholics, then I don't know who you are.

DARN RIGHT YOU DON'T!!!

If you won't tell me who you are then I can't know who you are. So why are you refusing to tell me who you are then blaming me for not knowing who you are?    Is it some sort of secret? if so, why? 

It's no secret.  If you're too lazy to study your opponent before you debate him, then don't expect your opponent to give you the information even a minimal amount of research can uncover.

[prodromas]

Do Catholics believe that Mary was born sinless?

Why don't you ask the Catholics?

Because I don't play telephone. I'd rather hear it from you yourselves...unless you're ashamed of your beliefs. I thought you could give me an honest answer, but it appears I was wrong. So if this indirect relating is an example of your religion, then I can tell you right now, your religion is not about honesty.

Brother we can tell you the answer to the question but you could be discusted and leave. But the thing is to truly understand the question you have to understand why we believe it. I can tell you it won't work with your current theological schema and you won't ever want to know anything about us. Go and do some research on the Eastern Orthodox church and you can come back and ask some questions.

[Carico]

Do Catholics believe that Mary was born sinless?

Why don't you ask the Catholics?

Because I don't play telephone. I'd rather hear it from you yourselves...unless you're ashamed of your beliefs. I thought you could give me an honest answer, but it appears I was wrong. So if this indirect relating is an example of your religion, then I can tell you right now, your religion is not about honesty.

Brother we can tell you the answer to the question but you could be discusted and leave. But the thing is to truly understand the question you have to understand why we believe it. I can tell you it won't work with your current theological schema and you won't ever want to know anything about us. Go and do some research on the Eastern Orthodox church and you can come back and ask some questions.

Then all you have to do is tell me what you believe and why you believe it. I have no problem explaining my beliefs because I'm not ashamed of them. This thread is about your beliefs which you've been dodging since the first response. So are you going to answer the Op or keep on dodging it?

[Papist]

Are you trying to find out what Catholics believe or what Eastern Orthodox Christians believe?

[PeterTheAleut]

Do Catholics believe that Mary was born sinless?

Why don't you ask the Catholics?

Because I don't play telephone. I'd rather hear it from you yourselves...unless you're ashamed of your beliefs. I thought you could give me an honest answer, but it appears I was wrong. So if this indirect relating is an example of your religion, then I can tell you right now, your religion is not about honesty.

Brother we can tell you the answer to the question but you could be discusted and leave. But the thing is to truly understand the question you have to understand why we believe it. I can tell you it won't work with your current theological schema and you won't ever want to know anything about us. Go and do some research on the Eastern Orthodox church and you can come back and ask some questions.

Then all you have to do is tell me what you believe and why you believe it. I have no problem explaining my beliefs because I'm not ashamed of them. This thread is about your beliefs which you've been dodging since the first response. So are you going to answer the Op or keep on dodging it?

Since you're acting on what you believe us to be, you can start by answering the question I submitted to you a few posts ago.  Whom do you think we are?  No one here is required to explain anything to you if you won't study us on your own time.

[Carico]

Are you trying to find out what Catholics believe or what Eastern Orthodox Christians believe?

I'm trying to find out what you people on this forum believe. And so far, it's been harder than trying to pin down an evolutionist. After all, I was asked; "Whom do you think we are?" So who is we? And you guys blame me for not knowing you you are when you yourselves don't seem to be able to explain it!   

[GiC]

Because I don't play telephone. I'd rather hear it from you yourselves...unless you're ashamed of your beliefs. I thought you could give me an honest answer, but it appears I was wrong. So if this indirect relating is an example of your religion, then I can tell you right now, your religion is not about honesty.

If you wanted to inquire about the beliefs of the people on this board (presumably you're talking about the majority of the members of this board and don't want my opinion on the matter, in particular)...why didn't you ask them that question instead of posing a vague question about Latin Theology/Mariology?

I must question the motives of anyone who asks one question then demands another, unstated one, be answered in its stead.

[PeterTheAleut]

Are you trying to find out what Catholics believe or what Eastern Orthodox Christians believe?

I'm trying to find out what you people on this forum believe.

No you're not.  You're here to argue against what you mistakenly think we believe.  Now go and do your homework.

[GiC]

it's been harder than trying to pin down an evolutionist.

Oh, please, try me...but not on this thread...we have several others dedicated to the subject.

[Carico]

Because I don't play telephone. I'd rather hear it from you yourselves...unless you're ashamed of your beliefs. I thought you could give me an honest answer, but it appears I was wrong. So if this indirect relating is an example of your religion, then I can tell you right now, your religion is not about honesty.

If you wanted to inquire about the beliefs of the people on this board (presumably you're talking about the majority of the members of this board and don't want my opinion on the matter, in particular)...why didn't you ask them that question instead of posing a vague question about Latin Theology/Mariology?

I must question the motives of anyone who asks one question then demands another, unstated one, be answered in its stead.

Again, I was asked "Whom do you think we are?" So I can't answer the question until I first know who We is. So once again, who is WE? And if you won't tell me, then you are not interested in honest conversation but rather badgering, baiting and evasion.

[Myrrh23]

Carico, are you really Gov. Palin? Your answers are as confusing as hers.......

[Anastasios]

Then all you have to do is tell me what you believe and why you believe it. I have no problem explaining my beliefs because I'm not ashamed of them. This thread is about your beliefs which you've been dodging since the first response. So are you going to answer the Op or keep on dodging it?

How is this thread about our beliefs when we are not Roman Catholics?  We have some differences of opinion with Roman Catholics on the matter.

Do you want to know what the Orthodox Church believes?

If you are seeking the Roman Catholic answer I suggest you go to a nice Roman Catholic board like Steve Ray's forums.catholic-convert.com

[Asteriktos]

I'm Eastern Orthodox Christian.

[ytterbiumanalyst]

then you are not interested in honest conversation but rather badgering, baiting and evasion.

If you're going to talk to yourself, you don't have to publish it on the Internet.

[GiC]

Again, I was asked "Whom do you think we are?" So I can't answer the question until I first know who We is. So once again, who is WE? And if you won't tell me, then you are not interested in honest conversation but rather badgering, baiting and evasion.

But you wern't asked who we were...you were asked 'whom do you think we are...how are we supposed to know who you think we are?

[Carico]

Then all you have to do is tell me what you believe and why you believe it. I have no problem explaining my beliefs because I'm not ashamed of them. This thread is about your beliefs which you've been dodging since the first response. So are you going to answer the Op or keep on dodging it?

How is this thread about our beliefs when we are not Roman Catholics?  We have some differences of opinion with Roman Catholics on the matter.

Do you want to know what the Orthodox Church believes?

If you are seeking the Roman Catholic answer I suggest you go to a nice Roman Catholic board like Steve Ray's forums.catholic-convert.com

I want to know who the WE in the first question posed to me represents. It's that simple.

[Αριστοκλής]

it's been harder than trying to pin down an evolutionist.

Oh, please, try me...but not on this thread...we have several others dedicated to the subject.

Oh goody...going to go make some popcorn...

[Myrrh23]

Because I don't play telephone. I'd rather hear it from you yourselves...unless you're ashamed of your beliefs. I thought you could give me an honest answer, but it appears I was wrong. So if this indirect relating is an example of your religion, then I can tell you right now, your religion is not about honesty.

If you wanted to inquire about the beliefs of the people on this board (presumably you're talking about the majority of the members of this board and don't want my opinion on the matter, in particular)...why didn't you ask them that question instead of posing a vague question about Latin Theology/Mariology?

I must question the motives of anyone who asks one question then demands another, unstated one, be answered in its stead.

Again, I was asked "Whom do you think we are?" So I can't answer the question until I first know who We is. So once again, who is WE? And if you won't tell me, then you are not interested in honest conversation but rather badgering, baiting and evasion.

Carico, we refers to the body of seekers and believers that make up OrthodoxChristianity.net. You came to an Eastern Orthodox forum website---hence, the name Orthodoxchristianity.net. No one is evading anything, but some of us find it annoying and careless that you neither looked at the title on the Home Page---thus confusing us with Roman Catholics---and by also not looking up the question in the Search Bar, also located on the Home Page. It is right for some of us to say to you that you should do some research and observation first before you start posting and especially before you start arguing.

[prodromas]

I want to know who the WE in the first question posed to me represents. It's that simple.

It has been said many times in this thread:

EASTERN ORTHODOX CHRISTIAN

[PeterTheAleut]

This is an Orthodox Christian discussion forum, as can be seen in the name www.orthodoxchristianity.net.  Who else do you think 99% of the members of this Orthodox Christian forum are?  We're certainly not Buddhists.

[Papist]

Does the OP know what Orthodox Chritianity is?

[ozgeorge]

Because I don't play telephone.

That's nice. But what I mean is, why don't you ask your question on a Roman Catholic forum? Why come to an Orthodox Christian forum and ask them what the Catholics believe? Isn't that playing telephone?

I'd rather hear it from you yourselves...unless you're ashamed of your beliefs.

Oh, I'm not ashamed of my beliefs. In fact there is no room for either pride nor shame for us in our lives as Christians. To hold something back from shame is actually pride anyway.

I thought you could give me an honest answer, but it appears I was wrong.

I have no control over how you choose to perceive the world. But lets look at things objectively for a minute. You came here, thinking we were Catholics, we correct you, then you insult our Faith (without even knowing what we believe) like a raving derelict drunkard, and then you wonder why no one takes you seriously. Could it possibly be you that has the problem?

So if this indirect relating is an example of your religion, then I can tell you right now, your religion is not about honesty.

Orthodox Christianity is not a religion. It is the antithesis of it. Orthodoxy is the only cure for the neurosis that is "religion".

[Carico]

This is an Orthodox Christian discussion forum, as can be seen in the name www.orthodoxchristianity.net.  Who else do you think 99% of the members of this Orthodox Christian forum are?  We're certainly not Buddhists.

No, and neither are catholics Buddhists. So sorry, just because you're not Buddhists doesn't mean that your beliefs are crystal clear.    And considering that the responders in this thread have done everything BUT answer the OP, then your beliefs are anything but crystal clear. So you might try clarifying them instead of being vague about them then criticizing others for not knowing what they are.  So, are you proud of your beliefs and want others to go to heaven for hearing them? Or are you ashamed of them because you believe they're contradictory? So which is it? 

[Myrrh23]

This is an Orthodox Christian discussion forum, as can be seen in the name www.orthodoxchristianity.net.  Who else do you think 99% of the members of this Orthodox Christian forum are?  We're certainly not Buddhists.

That's what I said!

[prodromas]

Carico just stop. What you are doing is so rude its like jumping in to someones conversation and abusing them for no particular reason. You have been on this site for 1 hour and you have been put on moderation, do you think that this is a reason to re-think your behaviour? and no it's not because your protestant as we have many protestant posters who don't come here to abuse us but rather learn and us learn from them as brothers and sister in the body of Christ.

[Asteriktos]

Do Catholics believe that Mary was born sinless?

I'm not Catholic, but it's my understanding that they believe that the Virgin Mary was immaculately conceived, and thus born sinless.

If so, then since God is the only one who is sinless, then the Catholics must think that Mary is God. If so, then since Mary isn't included in the trinity, then the Catholics worship 2 Gods which breaks the first two commandments.

They don't think that Mary is God.

Otherwise, how do you explain your claims?

We don't accept what the Catholics believe on this point.

[Myrrh23]

Carico, it's got nothing to do with us being ashamed of our beliefs. You originally asked a question about Catholics. We're not Roman Catholics...at all! If you wish to ask the Roman Catholics what they believe, you should ask a forum that is Roman Catholic. We're Eastern Orthodox, not Roman Catholic..(well, I'm not Eastern Orthodox...but I'm working on it!   )

[Carico]

Carico just stop. What you are doing is so rude its like jumping in to someones conversation and abusing them for no particular reason. You have been on this site for 1 hour and you have been put on moderation, do you think that this is a reason to re-think your behaviour? and no it's not because your protestant as we have many protestant posters who don't come here to abuse us but rather learn and us learn from them as brothers and sister in the body of Christ.

Actually what's rude is deliberately avoiding answering my OP by asking questions that you can't even clarify. So since you're not interested in answering my OP any more than you are interested in explaining your beliefs, then you're only here to make trouble for those who want to know more about you. You thus don't do your religion any justice whatsoever which makes it a cult. I therefore have no further desire to converse with anyone here. 

[prodromas]

Carico just stop. What you are doing is so rude its like jumping in to someones conversation and abusing them for no particular reason. You have been on this site for 1 hour and you have been put on moderation, do you think that this is a reason to re-think your behaviour? and no it's not because your protestant as we have many protestant posters who don't come here to abuse us but rather learn and us learn from them as brothers and sister in the body of Christ.

Actually what's rude is deliberately avoiding answering my OP by asking questions that you can't even clarify. So since you're not interested in answering my OP any more than you are interested in explaining your beliefs, then you're only here to make trouble for those who want to know more about you. You thus don't do your religion any justice whatsoever which makes it a cult. I therefore have no further desire to converse with anyone here. 

Alright brother I am sorry to hear that you don't want to take the time to learn about us and do your own research may the Lord have mercy on the both us of in our relationship with him.

[Myrrh23]

Doesn't this now feel like the typical AOL chatroom? Ugh...

[GiC]

Actually what's rude is deliberately avoiding answering my OP by asking questions that you can't even clarify. So since you're not interested in answering my OP any more than you are interested in explaining your beliefs, then you're only here to make trouble for those who want to know more about you. You thus don't do your religion any justice whatsoever which makes it a cult. I therefore have no further desire to converse with anyone here. 

Actually Asteriktos just answered your questions...why he too the time to do so is beyond me...but he did.

[John of the North]

or⋅tho⋅dox   /ˈɔrθəˌdɒks/ Show Spelled Pronunciation  [awr-thuh-doks] Show IPA Pronunciation  

–adjective 1. of, pertaining to, or conforming to the approved form of any doctrine, philosophy, ideology, etc.
2. of, pertaining to, or conforming to beliefs, attitudes, or modes of conduct that are generally approved.
3. customary or conventional, as a means or method; established.
4. sound or correct in opinion or doctrine, esp. theological or religious doctrine.
5. conforming to the Christian faith as represented in the creeds of the early church.
6. (initial capital letter) of, pertaining to, or designating the Eastern Church, esp. the Greek Orthodox Church.
7. (initial capital letter) of, pertaining to, or characteristic of Orthodox Jews or Orthodox Judaism.

Chris⋅ti⋅an⋅i⋅ty   /ˌkrɪstʃiˈænɪti/ Show Spelled Pronunciation  [kris-chee-an-i-tee] Show IPA Pronunciation  

–noun, plural -ties. 1. the Christian religion, including the Catholic, Protestant, and Eastern Orthodox churches.
2. Christian beliefs or practices; Christian quality or character: Christianity mixed with pagan elements; the Christianity of Augustine's thought.  
3. a particular Christian religious system: She followed fundamentalist Christianity.  
4. the state of being a Christian.
5. Christendom.  
6. conformity to the Christian religion or to its beliefs or practices.

[John of the North]

TROLL ALERT!

[lubeltri]

I'm Eastern Orthodox Christian.

 

And I'm so glad you are, Asteriktos!

[SolEX01]

...then you're only here to make trouble for those who want to know more about you. You thus don't do your religion any justice whatsoever which makes it a cult. I therefore have no further desire to converse with anyone here. 

To answer your question ... Mary was sinless for she didn't want to be like Eve, tempted by Satan to be like God.

Why waste your time creating the thread and being placed on moderation for engaging in evasive discussion with the people on this board?  Your own doctrines answer your own question for you believe what I just said is the mere "thinking of men."  If you're not Pentecostal, I ask for humble forgiveness....

The UPCI rejects all extrabiblical revelations and writings, and views church creeds and articles of faith only as the thinking of men.

As an aside, on Monday, I walked out of a support group meeting thanks to an affiliate of a Pentecostal Group infiltrating a meeting.  Once I heard the story of one member's personal story of "finding" Jesus one instant and "hearing" voices in her head the next instant, I walked out after reminding her that for accepting Jesus, she had to pick up her cross and follow Him (Mark 8:34-38).

Also, the Nicene Creed is based fully in Scripture; Hence, the Nicene Creed is not the mere "thinking of men."

If you view Orthodoxy and Catholicism and the Virgin Mary as "thinking of men", why not Pray for Divine Revelation....

[lubeltri]

Carico, I hope you've had your little bit of fun. How about I try to answer your question directly and concisely, and then you can sit back and relax?

Both Catholics and Orthodox believe that Mary did not sin in the course of her life, but owing to their different understandings of original sin, they believe so for different reasons.

Catholics believe that all men are conceived with a stain on their soul owing to the original sin of Adam, which caused a privation of sanctifying grace in all of his descendants. Protestants often speak of "total depravity." Catholics do not consider human souls totally depraved, but crippled enough so that our natural inclination is to evil from the beginning of our lives. With such a stain on our souls, we cannot be saved as unclean things cannot enter heaven. Christ came to save us from this affliction, and he did for Mary too. But Christ came into this world in a pure, holy and immaculate vessel, and that is Mary.

We believe that, through the graces of Christ, God made a special dispensation to preserve Mary from that stain, that natural (since the Fall) concupiscence (or innate proclivity to sin). Thus "immaculately" (stainlessly) conceived, Mary was fully free to make a choice---to say yes or no to God. Mary, as the New Eve, did not make Eve's choice and instead said "yes" to God. Thus the Incarnation. It does not follow that the Immaculate Conception made Mary incapable of sinning--- but she was fully free (like Eve) to make that choice and chose not to.


Orthodox Christians also believe Mary was sinless. However, they have a different view of original sin than Catholics. Their view might be better described as "ancestral sin." That sin brought death into the world, and it is out of that fear of death, rather than out of a depravity etched in human nature, that man sins. For Orthodox, Mary simply chose not to sin. She did not need an Immaculate Conception to do it because though all men are born into a fallen world and in need of Christ to defeat death, they are not born with a fatal stain on their souls.

If you disagree that Mary was not sinless, I suggest you take it up with the Archangel Gabriel and with the Fathers, who certainly knew the Scriptures better than you, considering they were around when the New Testament canon was first established.

[ialmisry]

Do Catholics believe that Mary was born sinless?

Why don't you ask the Catholics?

Because I don't play telephone. I'd rather hear it from you yourselves...unless you're ashamed of your beliefs. I thought you could give me an honest answer, but it appears I was wrong. So if this indirect relating is an example of your religion, then I can tell you right now, your religion is not about honesty.

Brother we can tell you the answer to the question but you could be discusted and leave. But the thing is to truly understand the question you have to understand why we believe it. I can tell you it won't work with your current theological schema and you won't ever want to know anything about us. Go and do some research on the Eastern Orthodox church and you can come back and ask some questions.

Then all you have to do is tell me what you believe and why you believe it. I have no problem explaining my beliefs because I'm not ashamed of them. This thread is about your beliefs which you've been dodging since the first response. So are you going to answer the Op or keep on dodging it?

If you are not ashamed of them, why aren't you posting them?

You asked us about what the Vatican believes.  Since we are not in communion with the Vatican, we can't speak for it.

No, the Virgin Mary wasn't born without Original Sin but no, she didn't commit a sin, and no, that doesn't make her a god anymore than Adam and Eve before the Fall were God (remember, that was the Original Sin, to want to become a god rather than like God: consult Genesis), so no we don't worship two Gods.

[ialmisry]

Because I don't play telephone. I'd rather hear it from you yourselves...unless you're ashamed of your beliefs. I thought you could give me an honest answer, but it appears I was wrong. So if this indirect relating is an example of your religion, then I can tell you right now, your religion is not about honesty.

If you wanted to inquire about the beliefs of the people on this board (presumably you're talking about the majority of the members of this board and don't want my opinion on the matter, in particular)...why didn't you ask them that question instead of posing a vague question about Latin Theology/Mariology?

I must question the motives of anyone who asks one question then demands another, unstated one, be answered in its stead.

Again, I was asked "Whom do you think we are?" So I can't answer the question until I first know who We is. So once again, who is WE? And if you won't tell me, then you are not interested in honest conversation but rather badgering, baiting and evasion.

Under most of are names you are told who we are.  Yours has the vague "Christian" which tells us nothing.  Everyone here except Greeki (he may or may not dispute this) is Christian, and we are not all in the same church.

[Veniamin]

I therefore have no further desire to converse with anyone here. 

Promise?

[GreekChef]

I therefore have no further desire to converse with anyone here. 

Oh, darn.  I mean, your time here was so productive, after all. 

I don't know why, but in case you are reading this, I am going to attempt to answer your question clearly and concisely.

Do Catholics believe that Mary was born sinless? If so, then since God is the only one who is sinless, then the Catholics must think that Mary is God. If so, then since Mary isn't included in the trinity, then the Catholics worship 2 Gods which breaks the first two commandments.  Otherwise, how do you explain your claims?

Emphasis mine

There are two issues at hand here.

1. Who we here on orthodoxchristianity.net are (an issue based on the words "you" and "your" in the OP-- emphasis added for the purpose of pointing this out)

and

2. What Catholics believe about Mary's sinlessness.

The answer to question 1.
We (the majority of us, that is) are ORTHODOX CHRISTIANS.  You seem to be unaware that the Orthodox Church is a Christian Church SEPARATE from the Roman Catholic Church.  We are NOT members of the Roman Catholic Church.  We are an entirely separate church altogether with entirely different beliefs from the Roman Catholic Church.  We do not attend Catholic Churches, we do not follow the Pope of Rome.  Saying that we are Catholic is like my saying that YOU are Catholic.  It is simply not true.

Here are a couple websites that will educate you in the faith of the Orthodox, should you be interested in learning more.
www.goarch.org
www.oca.org
www.antiochian.org
There are many others, but these would be a good start.  Feel free to look at all the threads on this forum, as well.  You will be able to learn much about what we believe by reading those.

As to question 2.
What Catholics believe about Mary was more than adequately stated already in this thread.  If you are interested in what the Orthodox Church believes about Mary, I know some people have already given concise explanations, but since those don't seem to be satisfactory to you, just search on this forum and you will find many threads dedicated to the subject.  There will be plenty of source material within those threads for you to read, as well.

Now, should you decide to re-join us on the forum, I have a question for YOU to consider.  Why are you here?  Because you want to learn, or because you want to judge?  The answer seems obvious to those of us reading your posts.  Maybe it's not so obvious to you.  You might want to consider it.  There are wonderful people on OC.net who love to talk to people who want to learn from us, and to people from we can learn.  But those who come here wanting to judge us usually find that their time here is not as fruitful and people are not as friendly.  Which are you?


In Christ,
Presbytera Mari

[antiderivative]

I think it would have been better if you asked if the Orthodox believed Mary was sinless. If you think we are the same thing as Catholics, go to google and type in 1054. Orthodox and Catholics have very similar beliefs on Mary, but this is not one of them. To answer your question more directly, the issue has never been that often discussed in the Orthodox Church. Many Church Fathers said that she sinned minutely as a child. We don't believe in the Immaculate Conception, but we do believe she eventually became sinless (someone here correct me if I'm wrong). We certainly believe she needed Jesus to save her. I suggest going here:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,18035.0.html

If so, then since God is the only one who is sinless, then the Catholics must think that Mary is God. If so, then since Mary isn't included in the trinity, then the Catholics worship 2 Gods which breaks the first two commandments.

Catholics have a direct dogma that Mary was sinless from birth to death, but they don't worship her. I would suggest asking a Catholic on that, they would know their own theology better than me.

[Asteriktos]

   

And I'm so glad you are, Asteriktos!

Well thanks, though I don't see why it's funny

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OrthodoxChristianity.net > Moderated Forums > Orthodox-Other Christian Discussion > Orthodox-Protestant Discussion (Moderator: PeterTheAleut) > Topic: Was Mary sinless?