Author Topic: I am ready to admitt that I was wrong.  (Read 2776 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Papist

  • Patriarch of Pontification
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,767
  • Praying for the Christians in Iraq
I am ready to admitt that I was wrong.
« on: October 16, 2008, 12:09:46 PM »
I am ready to admitt that I may have been wrong about the essence energies distinction. I am willing to admitt that it is patristcally supported and can be an orthodox expression of the faith when properly understood.
If you notice, yesterday I started a thread asking questions about the EED. I meditated on the matter all day yesterday. I now believe that the doctrine of Divine simplicity and EED are compatible and express the same truth.
I appologize for being so vitriolic in my opposition to the dogma and beg your forgiveness in this matter. I realize that I can be exteremely intellectually prideful and often set in my ways.
I think that both the theological expression, EED and Divine simplicity have their limitations, but I think that they also provide a good balance in our understanding of God.
with a repentant heart,
Chris.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2008, 12:10:24 PM by Papist »
You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.

Offline Fr. David

  • The Poster Formerly Known as "Pedro"
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,833
    • Iglesia Ortodoxa de los Santos Apóstoles
Re: I am ready to admitt that I was wrong.
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2008, 12:22:04 PM »
What a wonderful post.

In fact...PoM nomination.  Seriously.  That's an example of what there should be more of on the forum, in our lives etc.

God forgives and I forgive.  God be praised that you've opened yourself up to this teaching.
Priest in the Orthodox Church in America - ordained on March 18, 2012

Oh Taste and See (my defunct blog)

From Protestant to Orthodox (my conversion story)

Offline SolEX01

  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,229
    • Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Metropolis of New Jersey
Re: I am ready to admitt that I was wrong.
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2008, 04:18:09 PM »
I forgive you as well.
Lord Have Mercy.
Amen!

Offline Deacon Lance

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,166
  • Faith: Byzantine Catholic
  • Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Re: I am ready to admitt that I was wrong.
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2008, 04:34:51 PM »
I'll second that PoM nomination.
My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.

Offline EofK

  • Mrs. Y
  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 3,976
  • lolcat addict
Re: I am ready to admitt that I was wrong.
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2008, 05:13:21 PM »
Welcome back, Papist!  :) May God forgive us all. 
Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. -- Douglas Adams

Offline ozgeorge

  • I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 16,382
  • My plans for retirement.
    • Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Australia
Re: I am ready to admitt that I was wrong.
« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2008, 05:17:01 PM »
God forgives.
If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Offline ytterbiumanalyst

  • Professor Emeritus, CSA
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,790
Re: I am ready to admitt that I was wrong.
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2008, 05:44:06 PM »
Thank you, Chris. Apology accepted, and may God forgive us all.
"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens

Offline minasoliman

  • Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
  • Section Moderator
  • Toumarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 13,548
  • Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)
Re: I am ready to admitt that I was wrong.
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2008, 09:24:59 PM »
I third the PoM nomination.

I hope theologians between the Catholic and Orthodox Churches may also come together to express the same views.  I've also had my suspicions on this as a superficial difference.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline ozgeorge

  • I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 16,382
  • My plans for retirement.
    • Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Australia
Re: I am ready to admitt that I was wrong.
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2008, 11:02:32 PM »
In fact...PoM nomination.

I'll second that PoM nomination.

I third the PoM nomination.

These nominations have been registered.
If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Offline Starlight

  • Site Supporter
  • OC.net guru
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,537
Re: I am ready to admitt that I was wrong.
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2008, 11:09:54 PM »
In fact...PoM nomination.

I'll second that PoM nomination.

I third the PoM nomination.

These nominations have been registered.

Excellent! Hence the nominations have been registered, should we just express the support? In this case, I hereby do so now. 

Welcome back! :)
« Last Edit: October 16, 2008, 11:10:38 PM by Starlight »

Offline PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Section Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 34,175
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: I am ready to admitt that I was wrong.
« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2008, 12:38:27 AM »
Apology accepted, I forgive you, and welcome back, Chris. ;D
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline FrChris

  • The Rodney Dangerfield of OC.net
  • Site Supporter
  • Taxiarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,252
  • Holy Father Patrick, thank you for your help!
Re: I am ready to admitt that I was wrong.
« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2008, 09:11:24 AM »
Glory to God!
"As the sparrow flees from a hawk, so the man seeking humility flees from an argument". St John Climacus

Offline Papist

  • Patriarch of Pontification
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,767
  • Praying for the Christians in Iraq
Re: I am ready to admitt that I was wrong.
« Reply #12 on: October 17, 2008, 01:41:20 PM »
Thank you all for your prayers and forgiveness.
You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.

Offline prodromas

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,239
  • Greek Orthodox
Re: I am ready to admitt that I was wrong.
« Reply #13 on: October 18, 2008, 01:59:59 AM »
Domine, miserere

Brother you are an example for us all!
The sins I don't commit are largely due to the weakness of my limbs.

1915-1923 Հայոց Ցեղասպանութիւն ,never again,
ܩܛܠܐ ܕܥܡܐ ܐܬܘܪܝܐ 1920-1914, never again,
השואה  1933-1945, never again,
(1914-1923) Ελληνική Γενοκτονία, never again

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 38,689
Re: I am ready to admitt that I was wrong.
« Reply #14 on: October 18, 2008, 08:38:36 AM »
God forgives.

Could be worse. I used to burn icons. :o
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ozgeorge

  • I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 16,382
  • My plans for retirement.
    • Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Australia
Re: I am ready to admitt that I was wrong.
« Reply #15 on: October 18, 2008, 08:58:57 AM »
Could be worse. I used to burn icons. :o
Wow! A modern "Paul on the Road to Damascus" story!
If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Offline minasoliman

  • Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
  • Section Moderator
  • Toumarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 13,548
  • Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)
Re: I am ready to admitt that I was wrong.
« Reply #16 on: October 18, 2008, 09:51:03 AM »
Dear Papist,

I would love to read from you Catholic authors that have implications in their theology of the essence/energy distinction if you have any quotes in mind.  Or if you can recommend a book, that would be nice.

God bless.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline jlerms

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 826
  • O sweet Jesus, cleanse my soul.
Re: I am ready to admitt that I was wrong.
« Reply #17 on: October 18, 2008, 10:13:27 AM »
Glory to God.  What a beautiful post Papist!  Sometimes it is a difficult thing to to ask for forgiveness.  Your post shows humility which is a virtue lacking in myself and many others.  God bless you.  I also nominate your post as POM.

Juliana :)

Offline Apotheoun

  • "Three realities pertain to God: essence, energy, and the triad of divine hypostaseis." St. Gregory Palamas
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,421
  • St. John Maximovitch
    • The Taboric Light
Re: I am ready to admitt that I was wrong.
« Reply #18 on: October 18, 2008, 03:24:49 PM »
I am ready to admitt that I may have been wrong about the essence energies distinction. I am willing to admitt that it is patristcally supported and can be an orthodox expression of the faith when properly understood.
If you notice, yesterday I started a thread asking questions about the EED. I meditated on the matter all day yesterday. I now believe that the doctrine of Divine simplicity and EED are compatible and express the same truth.
I appologize for being so vitriolic in my opposition to the dogma and beg your forgiveness in this matter. I realize that I can be exteremely intellectually prideful and often set in my ways.
I think that both the theological expression, EED and Divine simplicity have their limitations, but I think that they also provide a good balance in our understanding of God.
with a repentant heart,
Chris.
What a wonderful post!  Often in our desire to be faithful to God we say things in haste or without consideration for the other person.  If I have offended you by my comments in the past, I sincerely apologize.

God bless you,
Todd
"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite

Offline Papist

  • Patriarch of Pontification
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,767
  • Praying for the Christians in Iraq
Re: I am ready to admitt that I was wrong.
« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2008, 11:27:51 PM »
I am ready to admitt that I may have been wrong about the essence energies distinction. I am willing to admitt that it is patristcally supported and can be an orthodox expression of the faith when properly understood.
If you notice, yesterday I started a thread asking questions about the EED. I meditated on the matter all day yesterday. I now believe that the doctrine of Divine simplicity and EED are compatible and express the same truth.
I appologize for being so vitriolic in my opposition to the dogma and beg your forgiveness in this matter. I realize that I can be exteremely intellectually prideful and often set in my ways.
I think that both the theological expression, EED and Divine simplicity have their limitations, but I think that they also provide a good balance in our understanding of God.
with a repentant heart,
Chris.
What a wonderful post!  Often in our desire to be faithful to God we say things in haste or without consideration for the other person.  If I have offended you by my comments in the past, I sincerely apologize.

God bless you,
Todd
Thank you for you apology Todd. I know that you and I don't always agree but personally, I could definitely be more agreeable about my disgreements.  :) I apologize for my uncharitable behavior. God bless you brother and thank you for you patiences with me.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2008, 11:45:21 PM by Papist »
You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.

Offline Papist

  • Patriarch of Pontification
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,767
  • Praying for the Christians in Iraq
Re: I am ready to admitt that I was wrong.
« Reply #20 on: October 19, 2008, 11:36:07 PM »
Dear Papist,

I would love to read from you Catholic authors that have implications in their theology of the essence/energy distinction if you have any quotes in mind.  Or if you can recommend a book, that would be nice.

God bless.
There is an article by Michael Liccione online that really got me thinking. Google his name along with the words essence, energies, distinction, and divine simplicity and you will find his blogg. I think its a good introduction to the issue and he provides a explanation of how the Catholic idea of Divine simplicity and the Eastern Orthodox idea of essence/energies, are really teaching the same truth but use terms in different manners.
I would also suggest the book "The Ground of Union". In this work, the author demonstrates that even though Palamas and Aquinas use different termonology and emphasize different parts of the doctrine of Theosis, they really believe the same thing. Since the doctrine of theosis is closely associated with the essence/energies distinction, this book (although extremely scholarly) would be a good place to do some research on the matter.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2008, 11:49:03 PM by Papist »
You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.

Offline Papist

  • Patriarch of Pontification
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,767
  • Praying for the Christians in Iraq
Re: I am ready to admitt that I was wrong.
« Reply #21 on: October 19, 2008, 11:46:57 PM »
Domine, miserere

Brother you are an example for us all!
Than you. And just to let you know, the Latin in your post really made me smile.
You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.

Offline Mickey

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,309
Re: I am ready to admitt that I was wrong.
« Reply #22 on: October 21, 2008, 10:04:37 AM »
God bless you Chris!

Pride is an affliction to all of us.

Offline Papist

  • Patriarch of Pontification
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,767
  • Praying for the Christians in Iraq
Re: I am ready to admitt that I was wrong.
« Reply #23 on: October 21, 2008, 10:25:15 AM »
God bless you Chris!

Pride is an affliction to all of us.
I am truely sorry for having offended you in the past my dear brother in Christ.
You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.

Offline Pravoslavbob

  • Section Moderator
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,204
  • Distressed about my country
Re: I am ready to admitt that I was wrong.
« Reply #24 on: October 21, 2008, 10:51:59 AM »
Welcome back, Chris. 
Religion is a disease, and Orthodoxy is its cure.

Offline Mickey

  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,309
Re: I am ready to admitt that I was wrong.
« Reply #25 on: October 21, 2008, 11:07:37 AM »
I am truely sorry for having offended you in the past my dear brother in Christ.
And likewise my good friend.

Offline lubeltri

  • Latin Catholic layman
  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 3,795
Re: I am ready to admitt that I was wrong.
« Reply #26 on: October 21, 2008, 11:18:20 AM »
My dear Papist, you are inspirational. You've helped me realize that we shouldn't just resign ourselves to harboring animosities. I myself quit the forum altogether because of things I've read that upset me greatly. Instead of turning the other cheek and praying for those I found offensive, I simply left with hard feelings, which I did nothing to allay. Of course, during all of this I never gave thought to any of the times in the past I might have offended others on the board. We are all sinners here.

So I thank you, Papist, for listening to the Holy Spirit.  You've brought grace to us all.

Offline Papist

  • Patriarch of Pontification
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,767
  • Praying for the Christians in Iraq
Re: I am ready to admitt that I was wrong.
« Reply #27 on: October 21, 2008, 11:36:52 AM »
My dear Papist, you are inspirational. You've helped me realize that we shouldn't just resign ourselves to harboring animosities. I myself quit the forum altogether because of things I've read that upset me greatly. Instead of turning the other cheek and praying for those I found offensive, I simply left with hard feelings, which I did nothing to allay. Of course, during all of this I never gave thought to any of the times in the past I might have offended others on the board. We are all sinners here.

So I thank you, Papist, for listening to the Holy Spirit.  You've brought grace to us all.
I'm so glad you are back luberti. You were always an example to me of how a person can be both a solid Catholic and a charitable Christian.
You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.

Offline minasoliman

  • Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
  • Section Moderator
  • Toumarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 13,548
  • Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)
Re: I am ready to admitt that I was wrong.
« Reply #28 on: October 21, 2008, 09:24:29 PM »
I found his blog site:  http://mliccione.blogspot.com/

Is there where you got it from?  I see a couple of blogs on this subject.

And the books looks great, but my God it's expensive.  Does the book mention anything about Barlaam's beliefs and dispute between him and St. Gregory Palamas?

Thank you.

God bless.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Papist

  • Patriarch of Pontification
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 12,767
  • Praying for the Christians in Iraq
Re: I am ready to admitt that I was wrong.
« Reply #29 on: October 22, 2008, 12:29:10 PM »
I found his blog site:  http://mliccione.blogspot.com/

Is there where you got it from?  I see a couple of blogs on this subject.

And the books looks great, but my God it's expensive.  Does the book mention anything about Barlaam's beliefs and dispute between him and St. Gregory Palamas?

Thank you.

God bless.
Yes sir. That's where I started. I agree, the books are expensive. However, I LOVE books. And I love them too much. And yes, Barlaam is mentioned in "The Ground of Union" but he is not the main topic.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2008, 12:30:18 PM by Papist »
You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.