OrthodoxChristianity.net
November 27, 2014, 11:07:34 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: land of Israel  (Read 2698 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Myrrh23
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,639



« on: October 23, 2008, 04:54:03 PM »

What does Orthodoxy think of the claim that the land of Israel biblically belongs to the Jews as God's Chosen People? What do individual Orthodox think of this claim?
Logged

*I am no longer posting on OC.net*

We all have a Black Dog and a White Dog inside of us. The One you feed the most eventually eats the Other.

All are tempted, but it is the courageous person who clings to God during the storm. For the Ego is a prison, but Christ is the Liberator
ytterbiumanalyst
Professor Emeritus, CSA
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA Diocese of the Midwest
Posts: 8,790



« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2008, 05:12:48 PM »

See my answer here. This thread is in our private Politics forum, so if you can't see it, PM Fr. Chris for access.
Logged

"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens
Orthodox11
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,999


« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2008, 05:13:41 PM »

The Church is the New Israel, God's chosen people. Whether you're pro-Israel or not, the Jews have no religious claim to that land from a Christian perspective.
Logged
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,698


WWW
« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2008, 05:18:43 PM »

^ I agree with the above poster for just because the UN created Israel out of nothing and the historical sites of Christianity belong in Israel, Christ said to go make disciples of all nations, including those (Jews, Arabs, et al.) who happen to live in today's Israel.

Logged
GabrieltheCelt
Hillbilly Extraordinaire
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,990


Chasin' down a Hoodoo...


« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2008, 06:07:47 PM »

The Church is the New Israel, God's chosen people. Whether you're pro-Israel or not, the Jews have no religious claim to that land from a Christian perspective.
Amen. 


Restorationism (or Christian Zionism; however one labels it) is a relatively new idea stemming from Protestantism (and is a fairly new concept i.e. 1500 - 1600's) and primarily stems from (but not limited to) Romans 11:17-24.  Like many Protestant teachings/understandings, it has no place from an Orthodox understanding.  In fact, as Orthodox11 said, it's not even Christian at all.
Logged

"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America."  ~Scots-Irish saying
Quinault
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 4,518


What about frogs? I like frogs!


« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2008, 06:27:11 PM »

Why don't you ask Fr. Alexander Winogradsky? He has several blogs and is on Facebook. I can offer an opinion but ultimately my opinion is worth nothing. I don't live there, I am not Jewish. I don't know the culture and I am not an Old Testament scholar. In my opinion everyone deserves to have a home. So yes, I believe there is a Macedonia, yes I believe that there is and should be an Israel. But many will (and do) disagree with me. But normally they aren't people that had to have their ethnicity "voted" on as to whether it existed.

My belief that there should be an Israel has nothing to do with the second coming. I have to say that reading; "A second look at the second coming" was of great help to my husband and I. We were raised by Zionist-the-end-of-the-world-is-nigh parents. And there is a middle ground between Zionism and eliminating Israel altogether. My priest wrote the foreward of the aforementioned book. He was in Israel during the 6 day war! (The events are described in his Book "Suprised by Christ") If I wanted to ask someone about Israel I would ask Fr. Alexander or my priest, not people on the internet that have no connection to Israel whatsoever. The both view themselves as Jewish AND Christian. Orthodoxy is rife with Anti-semitism, (go to the Passion week readings!) so you aren't going to find "one" view on the land of Israel and Jews, you will find many.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2008, 06:56:41 PM by Quinault » Logged
Heorhij
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA, for now, but my heart belongs to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church
Posts: 8,576



WWW
« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2008, 06:46:42 PM »

When I was growing up in Kyiv (Sholom Aleichem's "Yegupets"Smiley) in the 1960-s and 70-s, my parents had several Jewish friends who later emigrated either to Israel, or to the USA. Occasionally, I speak with them on the phone and sometimes even see some of them (those that are in the US). All of them are atheists, but, nonetheless, some of them are very deeply attached to Israel. They say that they feel really at home only there, in spite of the fact that they spent most of their life in the former USSR, and had no "Jewish life" as such - actually, even their parents and grandparents were already quite secularized and cosmopolitan "Soviet people." One family that I know settled in Los Angeles, lives in a very fancy home in Marina DelRey, but they say that it's just "to do business" - they also own a home in Israel and go there every once in while to breathe, to rest, to "really live." There is something almost mystical about it.

So, I don't know what's "the official Orthodox position on Israel," but I do think, like Quinault, that Israel perhaps should exist, as long as there are people who call it home. Of course, Arabs also have their full right to live there and to be treated decently.
Logged

Love never fails.
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,963



« Reply #7 on: October 23, 2008, 07:20:32 PM »

Why don't you ask Fr. Alexander Winogradsky? He has several blogs and is on Facebook. I can offer an opinion but ultimately my opinion is worth nothing. I don't live there, I am not Jewish. I don't know the culture and I am not an Old Testament scholar. In my opinion everyone deserves to have a home. So yes, I believe there is a Macedonia, yes I believe that there is and should be an Israel. But many will (and do) disagree with me. But normally they aren't people that had to have their ethnicity "voted" on as to whether it existed.
Like the Palestinians.

Quote
My belief that there should be an Israel has nothing to do with the second coming. I have to say that reading; "A second look at the second coming" was of great help to my husband and I. We were raised by Zionist-the-end-of-the-world-is-nigh parents. And there is a middle ground between Zionism and eliminating Israel altogether. My priest wrote the foreward of the aforementioned book. He was in Israel during the 6 day war! (The events are described in his Book "Suprised by Christ") If I wanted to ask someone about Israel I would ask Fr. Alexander or my priest, not people on the internet that have no connection to Israel whatsoever. The both view themselves as Jewish AND Christian. Orthodoxy is rife with Anti-semitism, (go to the Passion week readings!) so you aren't going to find "one" view on the land of Israel and Jews, you will find many.
I agree that a middle ground exists (not that I am advocating it). I consider myself both Orthodox, Arab and Hebrew.  Most Jews, because of my Hebrew maternal grandmother, consider me Jewish.

Btw, as Fr. Ambrose (Irish hermit) has posted, with the rise in conversions amongst the Jews from the Soviet Union (something I saw first hand in '92), the Patriarchate of Jerusalem might be majority Hebrew now.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2008, 07:22:43 PM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Elisha
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 4,462


« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2008, 07:25:55 PM »

...

Orthodoxy is rife with Anti-semitism, (go to the Passion week readings!) so you aren't going to find "one" view on the land of Israel and Jews, you will find many.

I disagree.  There may be anti-semitic Orthodox, but Orthodoxy is not anti-semitic.  The Passion week readings are NOT anti-semitic.  They have a purpose to teach us about things happening during a specific time, but ultimately to turn us from our sinful ways.  Heck, Lebanese/Syrian/Palestinian people are semites, so the whole modern concept of anti-semitism doesn't wash.
Logged
Quinault
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 4,518


What about frogs? I like frogs!


« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2008, 07:33:46 PM »

Not the scripture readings of the week-the other readings. I only found the text for Wednesday of Holy week. But here is just the tip of the iceberg.

"On you, on you, false Jews and unholy leaders of the people, falls the full weight of that crime: and although the enormity of the guilt involves the governor and the soldiers also, yet you are the primary and chief offenders. "
Logged
Quinault
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 4,518


What about frogs? I like frogs!


« Reply #10 on: October 23, 2008, 07:39:58 PM »

As I understand it we are all responsible, not just the Jews. But the services of Holy Week make special and rather cruel mention of Jews in particular. If my priest wasn't a Jew I think I would have been shocked into a dislike of Orthodoxy on first hearing at a service like that, believing it to be anti-semetic. Would a Jew on walking into a service for the first time want to ever return again hearing those readings?
« Last Edit: October 23, 2008, 07:48:32 PM by Quinault » Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,963



« Reply #11 on: October 23, 2008, 07:40:37 PM »

Not the scripture readings of the week-the other readings. I only found the text for Wednesday of Holy week. But here is just the tip of the iceberg.

"On you, on you, false Jews and unholy leaders of the people, falls the full weight of that crime: and although the enormity of the guilt involves the governor and the soldiers also, yet you are the primary and chief offenders. "
I'm not fond of a number of the texts either, as misleading.  I'll mention that hhere are, however, a number of texts for Holy Week that upbraid the gentiles in particular.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2008, 07:42:06 PM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Quinault
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 4,518


What about frogs? I like frogs!


« Reply #12 on: October 23, 2008, 07:41:55 PM »

Isa-that was the only text I could find online. And it is rather tame at that. Does anyone have the full text of Holy week?
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,963



« Reply #13 on: October 23, 2008, 07:43:54 PM »

Isa-that was the only text I could find online. And it is rather tame at that. Does anyone have the full text of Holy week?

I'm not sure: many jurisdictions have edited the texts.  You're right, there is much more.

I came across a post on that:

I was a catechumen repelled by your anti-Semitic service, especially on
Good Thursday (beatitudes 4th tone, 13th antefone 2nd plagal 6th tone, 11th
antefone 2nd plagal 6th tone; also Tuesday 3rd ode 2nd tone tropare). Don't
you know how these passages fired up the Black Hundreds to go out and kill
Jews for their Judas fires? Some of you say they were added during the Middle
Ages and should be removed. What are you waiting for? Jews and Protestants
don't eat anything when they fast, but you eat seafood that is not Kosher,
deliberately out of anti-Semitism. You refuse to use matzabread in the
communion host because of your anti-Semitism. Your service book was written
by Chrysustolm, a communist Syrian terrorist who sought to consumate the
crimes his Seleucid forefathers were prevented from committing on Channukah,
and who wrote "Questioning is the subversion of faith" (Homily I on I Timothy
I). How do you masquerade to parade for religious freedom? If you want
Greeks to be a free people again, you should abandon your islamosoviet
religions and join the West. How do you expect Americans to elect Greeks who
attend such services to higher office?


I edited the name out.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2008, 07:57:50 PM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Quinault
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 4,518


What about frogs? I like frogs!


« Reply #14 on: October 23, 2008, 07:46:23 PM »

"Gentile" is such a relative term. I can be called that, as can an Egyptian, a Norwegian or Nigerian. So to me the text on "gentiles" is not that bad- it isn't specific, it is corporate. But Jews are a specific people group that are very specifically called out.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2008, 07:47:41 PM by Quinault » Logged
Elisha
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 4,462


« Reply #15 on: October 23, 2008, 07:50:44 PM »

We just baptized an older Jewish couple last week.  They were at all the Holy Week services last year and were not put off.  They understand the real meaning of the verses.

The verses are meant to be understood in the context of the Church.  Take Psalm 137 for example (By the Waters of Babylon).  It says are we are to dash the babies of the Babylonians against the ground, but that is not what it means for us.  Those "babies" are the thoughts that lead to sin - it is those that are to be dashed against the ground.
Logged
Quinault
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 4,518


What about frogs? I like frogs!


« Reply #16 on: October 23, 2008, 07:51:15 PM »

Why don't you ask Fr. Alexander Winogradsky? He has several blogs and is on Facebook. I can offer an opinion but ultimately my opinion is worth nothing. I don't live there, I am not Jewish. I don't know the culture and I am not an Old Testament scholar. In my opinion everyone deserves to have a home. So yes, I believe there is a Macedonia, yes I believe that there is and should be an Israel. But many will (and do) disagree with me. But normally they aren't people that had to have their ethnicity "voted" on as to whether it existed.
Like the Palestinians.

I completely agree. My belief that there should be a state of Israel does not mean that there should not be a Palestinian state.
Logged
LBK
No Reporting Allowed
Moderated
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 11,446


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #17 on: October 23, 2008, 07:51:21 PM »

Isa-that was the only text I could find online. And it is rather tame at that. Does anyone have the full text of Holy week?

I do, in English, Slavonic and Greek. PM me if you're interested.
Logged
Quinault
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 4,518


What about frogs? I like frogs!


« Reply #18 on: October 23, 2008, 07:53:25 PM »

We just baptized an older Jewish couple last week.  They were at all the Holy Week services last year and were not put off.  They understand the real meaning of the verses.

The verses are meant to be understood in the context of the Church.  Take Psalm 137 for example (By the Waters of Babylon).  It says are we are to dash the babies of the Babylonians against the ground, but that is not what it means for us.  Those "babies" are the thoughts that lead to sin - it is those that are to be dashed against the ground.

Many years to that couple! Scripture is one thing, we should not edit scripture to our liking. But the readings could be read as corporate or individually specific, but they are ethnically specific instead.
Logged
Quinault
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 4,518


What about frogs? I like frogs!


« Reply #19 on: October 23, 2008, 07:58:24 PM »

I know that if I walked into a service where it said;

"On you, on you, false american indians and unholy leaders of the people, falls the full weight of that crime: and although the enormity of the guilt involves the governor and the soldiers also, yet you are the primary and chief offenders."

I would be more than a little offended. Although it would make me laugh and think of all those "Lakota Shamans" that aren't Lakota at all.... Ok that text isn't a good example since there are many false american indian shamans that ought to have their scalps relocated up a certain oriface..But my point stands, there are many texts that are very harsh towards Jews during Holy Week.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2008, 08:00:32 PM by Quinault » Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,963



« Reply #20 on: October 23, 2008, 08:00:16 PM »

We just baptized an older Jewish couple last week.  They were at all the Holy Week services last year and were not put off.  They understand the real meaning of the verses.

The verses are meant to be understood in the context of the Church.  Take Psalm 137 for example (By the Waters of Babylon).  It says are we are to dash the babies of the Babylonians against the ground, but that is not what it means for us.  Those "babies" are the thoughts that lead to sin - it is those that are to be dashed against the ground.

Many years to that couple! Scripture is one thing, we should not edit scripture to our liking. But the readings could be read as corporate or individually specific, but they are ethnically specific instead.

Actually the texts are based on the Gospel of John, in which the term Jew refers only to a religious, never an ethnic, identity.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Quinault
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 4,518


What about frogs? I like frogs!


« Reply #21 on: October 23, 2008, 08:05:41 PM »

The fact that on this very site we had some people saying that the "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" is or could be real is a prime example outside Holy week of the views many in Orthodoxy hold of Jews.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,17836.0.html
Logged
Marc1152
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Rocor
Posts: 13,316


Probiotic .. Antibiotic


« Reply #22 on: October 23, 2008, 09:04:12 PM »

What does Orthodoxy think of the claim that the land of Israel biblically belongs to the Jews as God's Chosen People? What do individual Orthodox think of this claim?

It's biblically and historically correct. A 2 fer
Logged

Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm
GabrieltheCelt
Hillbilly Extraordinaire
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,990


Chasin' down a Hoodoo...


« Reply #23 on: October 23, 2008, 09:21:04 PM »

What does Orthodoxy think of the claim that the land of Israel biblically belongs to the Jews as God's Chosen People? What do individual Orthodox think of this claim?

It's biblically and historically correct. A 2 fer
Dear brother,

Can you provide scripture references you feel applies, please?  Thank you in advance.
Logged

"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America."  ~Scots-Irish saying
GabrieltheCelt
Hillbilly Extraordinaire
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,990


Chasin' down a Hoodoo...


« Reply #24 on: October 23, 2008, 09:28:29 PM »

This is my opinion on the matter so take it with a grain of salt.  I believe what I posted earlier in agreement with Orthodox11, but it seems that we're sort of veering straight towards some 'hot spots' that this subject seems to automatically veer towards.  First, I believe that the Jews have a right to be in Israel, and I also believe that the Palestinians (many of whom are Orthodox Christians) also have a right to their own state of Palestine.  It's unfortunate that many people are anti-Jewish (I personally hate the politically charged word anti-Semite), but as for the phrase "God's chosen people?  I believe that we're now *ALL* chosen, Jews and Gentiles.
Logged

"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America."  ~Scots-Irish saying
Myrrh23
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,639



« Reply #25 on: October 23, 2008, 09:34:52 PM »

The verses are meant to be understood in the context of the Church.  Take Psalm 137 for example (By the Waters of Babylon).  It says are we are to dash the babies of the Babylonians against the ground, but that is not what it means for us.  Those "babies" are the thoughts that lead to sin - it is those that are to be dashed against the ground.

I never knew! Thanks! I'm gonna have to thoroughly remember that. Smiley
« Last Edit: October 23, 2008, 09:35:08 PM by Myrrh23 » Logged

*I am no longer posting on OC.net*

We all have a Black Dog and a White Dog inside of us. The One you feed the most eventually eats the Other.

All are tempted, but it is the courageous person who clings to God during the storm. For the Ego is a prison, but Christ is the Liberator
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 12,722


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


« Reply #26 on: October 23, 2008, 11:38:24 PM »

Galatians 3:
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Romans 4:
9 Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised.   
13 For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect.

Answer to the OP, the Church is Israel.  The "nation of Israel" located in the Middle East is a nation like all others.  It belongs to whoever lives there, not just "Jews."
« Last Edit: October 23, 2008, 11:38:54 PM by minasoliman » Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
NorthernPines
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 934



« Reply #27 on: October 24, 2008, 12:38:01 PM »

Like others, I'm not sure there is an "official" position. The book mentioned above, "Second Look at the Second Coming" is IMO the best book on the end times and Israel written in modern times. (though I certainly haven't read them all or even most just my opinion).

There is so much fault and blame and sin to go around on both sides of this issue, about HOW Israel was created and how innocent Jews trying to follow their faith and live a simple life are targeted that it's really a sick, sick situation. I personally think the UN invented Israel because no one else wanted them...it was a cute way for the nations of the world to "make up" for the Holocaust, yet not have "those Jews" be our neighbors. That of course is simply my opinion, and I don't know if it can be backed up by history or not.


The problem is the rest of the world seemed to forget Palestine has been home to people, including Jews (jewish Christians who intermarried with gentiles for centuries and eventually be part of the "palestinian" people for  2000 years, oh but who cares about them...?(to me it seems the more radical Zionists think of Palestinians as "mongrels" of some sort. ie: "no such thing as a Palestinian" and quotes like that, to me this is just as offensive and racist and anti-semetic as anti-jewish is.

What ever happened in the past, Israel the nation exists now . . .however like  minasoliman said,  the "nation of Israel" located in the Middle East is a nation like all others.  It belongs to whoever lives there, not just "Jews."

Zionism is ok, but religious Zionism whether Christian or Jewish, is problematic from an Orthodox perspective I believe...religious Zionism can claim Israel deserves special treatment in the world, and not equal treatment, but as the saying goes, God ain't in the real estate business anymore. Smiley

These are just my opinions and hope I haven't caused offense.
Logged
NorthernPines
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 934



« Reply #28 on: October 24, 2008, 12:50:39 PM »

Not the scripture readings of the week-the other readings. I only found the text for Wednesday of Holy week. But here is just the tip of the iceberg.

"On you, on you, false Jews and unholy leaders of the people, falls the full weight of that crime: and although the enormity of the guilt involves the governor and the soldiers also, yet you are the primary and chief offenders. "


I've always taken these texts to mean "those Jewish leaders" who condemned Christ, not "Jews" as in all Jews everywhere. I had a priest who's father was a jewish convert to Orthodoxy, and I remember him saying something about at least in the Gospel of John, the term "the Jews" has a sense in the Greek, of meaning "those Jews at that time and place" or something like that. I simply have never seen those types of phrases as some sort of hate speach against the Jewish people. That could be because even as a Protestant (and heck even before my church going days) I was taught by my family it only meant "those Jews at that time, ie: the Sanhedrin" and so it just stuck with me, and I carried it over into Orthodoxy I guess. (how they knew this I do not know, since we really never went to Church)

There are some writings of the fathers that I have some serious problems with and a few texts from Holy Week that make me take pause, but then, anything can be taken out of context to mean anything. Granted, my parish does use a modern translation for Holy Week, but i've read some of the more literal ones too, and only a few really bothered me. (though I haven't read all the texts from older translations) But as I said, I grew up with a certain mindset, that it means something very specific...I guess what I'm saying is, if someone WANTS to see anti-Jewish language they'll find it anywhere.

edited to remove the last 2 paragraphs which were just confusing...I apologize.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2008, 01:10:20 PM by NorthernPines » Logged
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 12,722


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


« Reply #29 on: October 24, 2008, 02:42:56 PM »

Not the scripture readings of the week-the other readings. I only found the text for Wednesday of Holy week. But here is just the tip of the iceberg.

"On you, on you, false Jews and unholy leaders of the people, falls the full weight of that crime: and although the enormity of the guilt involves the governor and the soldiers also, yet you are the primary and chief offenders. "


I've always taken these texts to mean "those Jewish leaders" who condemned Christ, not "Jews" as in all Jews everywhere. I had a priest who's father was a jewish convert to Orthodoxy, and I remember him saying something about at least in the Gospel of John, the term "the Jews" has a sense in the Greek, of meaning "those Jews at that time and place" or something like that. I simply have never seen those types of phrases as some sort of hate speach against the Jewish people. That could be because even as a Protestant (and heck even before my church going days) I was taught by my family it only meant "those Jews at that time, ie: the Sanhedrin" and so it just stuck with me, and I carried it over into Orthodoxy I guess. (how they knew this I do not know, since we really never went to Church)

There are some writings of the fathers that I have some serious problems with and a few texts from Holy Week that make me take pause, but then, anything can be taken out of context to mean anything. Granted, my parish does use a modern translation for Holy Week, but i've read some of the more literal ones too, and only a few really bothered me. (though I haven't read all the texts from older translations) But as I said, I grew up with a certain mindset, that it means something very specific...I guess what I'm saying is, if someone WANTS to see anti-Jewish language they'll find it anywhere.

edited to remove the last 2 paragraphs which were just confusing...I apologize.

One has to stop and think that the way the word was used in such a hostile manner came from an oppressed people.  It is no different than the Arab Christian saying "those Muslims" or the black man "those white people."  When it carries over to a time when the oppressed are no longer oppressed, people realize the bigoted language it becomes.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2008, 02:44:03 PM by minasoliman » Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
Marc1152
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Rocor
Posts: 13,316


Probiotic .. Antibiotic


« Reply #30 on: November 14, 2008, 03:01:14 PM »

What does Orthodoxy think of the claim that the land of Israel biblically belongs to the Jews as God's Chosen People? What do individual Orthodox think of this claim?

It's biblically and historically correct. A 2 fer
Dear brother,

Can you provide scripture references you feel applies, please?  Thank you in advance.

Hmm..So you dont think all of the references to the Hebrews coming out of the desert into what is now Israel is  accurate? Were the actually in New Jersey?  Was the Temple built in London??  Odd odd question you ask 
Logged

Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 20,110


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #31 on: November 14, 2008, 03:38:13 PM »

I find it completely ironic (actually, more like "tragic") that the modern Israeli state herds Palestinians into what are essentially ethnic ghettos; they deprive them often of water, sanitation, free movement, and the like; they use color-coding (on the automobile license plates) to identify Palestinians from Jews and others; and essentially do their best to eliminate the population of Palestine.  You think the memories of the treatment of their ancestors 60-70 years ago would be enough to prevent them from doing this; alas, an appeal to humanity is lost.
Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
Rosehip
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Posts: 2,760



« Reply #32 on: November 14, 2008, 06:22:48 PM »

As I mentioned on another thread, I just finished reading Archbishop Elias Chacour's book about his experiences as a Melkite priest pastoring a village parish in Israel. His people were palestinians who had lived on the land tending their olive groves for centuries. As Christians, they had been shocked by the news of the holocaust created under the Nazis, and his family had prayed for the suffering Jewish people. Little did they realize that in a few short years, they would be the ones being stripped of their land and possesions by a people for whose persecution they had in no way been responsible. Anyhow, the story is extremely moving and presents a picture many are not so familiar with-including myself. What is touching is Archbishop Elias' desire for peace and co-existance, and his efforts to get all the religious groups in his village/country to get along. Abuna Elias is a very brave, brash, out-spoken and energetic person, and I would highly recommend his books for all to read.

Regarding the history of anti-semitism in the Orthodox Church-it is positively disheartening and horrifying. And yet, despite all that, amazingly, we have a very large amount of jewish converts to the Faith.
Logged

+ Our dear sister Martha (Rosehip) passed away on Dec 20, 2010.  May her memory be eternal! +
John of the North
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christianity
Jurisdiction: Eparchy of Edmonton and the West
Posts: 3,533


Christ is Risen!

tgild
« Reply #33 on: November 14, 2008, 06:46:44 PM »

This is my opinion on the matter so take it with a grain of salt.  I believe what I posted earlier in agreement with Orthodox11, but it seems that we're sort of veering straight towards some 'hot spots' that this subject seems to automatically veer towards.  First, I believe that the Jews have a right to be in Israel, and I also believe that the Palestinians (many of whom are Orthodox Christians) also have a right to their own state of Palestine.  It's unfortunate that many people are anti-Jewish (I personally hate the politically charged word anti-Semite), but as for the phrase "God's chosen people?  I believe that we're now *ALL* chosen, Jews and Gentiles.

I agree with Gabriel.
Logged

"Christianity is not a philosophy, not a doctrine, but life." - Elder Sophrony (Sakharov)
Tags: Israel Jews Bible Scripture 
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.118 seconds with 60 queries.