Author Topic: Typical Psalms and Troparia of the Beatitudes  (Read 3896 times)

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Offline filipinopilgrim

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Typical Psalms and Troparia of the Beatitudes
« on: October 23, 2008, 12:49:19 AM »
Dear All:

For the past several months, I have been asking a series of questions on some liturgical topics in several Internet fora (Ustav, Typikon, ByzCath, Monachos, etc.). I hope that this forum will allow me to ask the same questions. I really appreciate the various responses I get in each forum and I hope that this forum will result in a little harvest of new info for me.

Ok, first question in my list:

In your experience, are the FULL Typical Psalms and the Troparia that are supposed to be intercalated between the verses of the Beatitudes, still read or chanted in the Divine Liturgy?

Are there Greek cathedrals and parishes where these are still chanted? (Some have told me yes, but elsewhere I've read that these are used in Greek jurisdictions only by monasteries.) I do note that the Divine Music Project of the St. Anthony's Monastery refers to the Beatitudes and its Troparia.

As for Russian and Serbian practice, I also get conflicting reports (some say that these are chanted only in a few churches and monasteries, others tell me that these are making a "comeback"). I hope someone here could tell me more.

For Greek Cathedrals and Parishes that use the Antiphons at all times, are there those that chant all the verses of the antiphons, and not just one or two?


Thanks!

Pilgrim


« Last Edit: October 23, 2008, 12:50:40 AM by filipinopilgrim »

Offline Elisha

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Re: Typical Psalms and Troparia of the Beatitudes
« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2008, 02:52:35 AM »
My parish does the toparia between Beatitudes verses on Sunday Divine Liturgy.  I think it is from the Typicon.  We are OCA and one of few parishes to do them. 

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Re: Typical Psalms and Troparia of the Beatitudes
« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2008, 07:20:48 AM »
In my experience traveling throughout Greek parishes in the US there are no Greek parishes who do the Typika and Beatitudes (with the Troparia) in the US.  We've done them at Seminary a few times, and they do them at the monasteries, but not in the parishes, who generally use the Antiphons.  Many parishes use the verses that complement the Antiphons, but most of those parishes only do 3 verses, not the full 4-5 (depending on whether it is a feast day or not).  Some parishes sing the antiphons without verses.
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Offline Orthodox11

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Re: Typical Psalms and Troparia of the Beatitudes
« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2008, 09:40:52 AM »
Greek parishes in Europe are the same. The Beatitudes with verses are only sung in monasteries.

Offline filipinopilgrim

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Re: Typical Psalms and Troparia of the Beatitudes
« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2008, 03:02:11 PM »
My parish does the toparia between Beatitudes verses on Sunday Divine Liturgy.  I think it is from the Typicon.  We are OCA and one of few parishes to do them. 

What is your parish?

I understand that the now-retired Bishop Tikhon ordered the parishes in OCADOW to restore the Beatitude verses. 

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Re: Typical Psalms and Troparia of the Beatitudes
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2018, 08:22:44 AM »
Does the Serbian church normally practice the typical psalms/ beatitudes or the antiphons?
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Re: Typical Psalms and Troparia of the Beatitudes
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2018, 04:38:02 PM »
I never even heard this was a thing, anyone has it in video?
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

Anyhow when God was asked he said Eastern Orthodox is true Church and not Catholic Church. So come home and enjoy.

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Re: Typical Psalms and Troparia of the Beatitudes
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2018, 05:02:16 PM »
Does the Serbian church normally practice the typical psalms/ beatitudes or the antiphons?

Rather the typical psalms/beautitudes.

I never even heard this was a thing, anyone has it in video?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kJtsONOZ-g

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qv8xuxYImIs
« Last Edit: March 08, 2018, 05:03:25 PM by Dominika »
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Re: Typical Psalms and Troparia of the Beatitudes
« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2018, 08:11:57 AM »
Greek parishes in Europe are the same. The Beatitudes with verses are only sung in monasteries...
...and in a few churches (counted only on the fingers of one hand) where protopsaltes are Lykourgos Angelopoulos' students; the late Angelopoulos tried to revive the ancient ecclesiastical ethos and in his church (st. Irene of Aiolou street in down-town Athens) his choir chanted the ancient typika during Liturgy 
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Re: Typical Psalms and Troparia of the Beatitudes
« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2018, 10:07:16 AM »
My old ROCOR parish sings the typical psalms in full every Sunday unless it is a feast when the festal antiphons are appointed.  When I was there the troparia between the verses of the Beatitudes were sung on Great Feasts of the Mother of God, the patronal feast, and certain other days of particular devotion in the parish (e.g. saints to whom we had a particular devotion).
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Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Typical Psalms and Troparia of the Beatitudes
« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2018, 10:10:58 PM »
Is there any typikon online with the full Psalms and Troparia?
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

Anyhow when God was asked he said Eastern Orthodox is true Church and not Catholic Church. So come home and enjoy.

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Re: Typical Psalms and Troparia of the Beatitudes
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2018, 08:59:45 PM »
Is there any typikon online with the full Psalms and Troparia?

The troparia on the Beatitudes are variable, and come from the Octoechos, Triodion, Pentecostarion, or Menaion, or some combination of the above.  The exact combination and number of them depends on the rank of feasts colliding on any given day.  Somewhere I have the rules for working out what is to be sung when but Fr John Whiteford's website does all the work for you, provided you're on the Old Calendar, in North America, and follow the Russian calendar.

When I was responsible for putting together my former parish's services, I used to have to make adaptations for the saints of the British Isles.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2018, 09:04:19 PM by Subdeacon Michael »
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Offline Bob2

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Re: Typical Psalms and Troparia of the Beatitudes
« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2018, 12:38:51 AM »
Is there any typikon online with the full Psalms and Troparia?

The troparia on the Beatitudes are variable, and come from the Octoechos, Triodion, Pentecostarion, or Menaion, or some combination of the above.  The exact combination and number of them depends on the rank of feasts colliding on any given day.  Somewhere I have the rules for working out what is to be sung when but Fr John Whiteford's website does all the work for you, provided you're on the Old Calendar, in North America, and follow the Russian calendar.

When I was responsible for putting together my former parish's services, I used to have to make adaptations for the saints of the British Isles.

Fr John's site is essentially the St Innocent Calendar if you are looking at day he doesn't have listed.

You should also note it is based on the Old Calendar
« Last Edit: March 12, 2018, 12:39:35 AM by Bob2 »

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Re: Typical Psalms and Troparia of the Beatitudes
« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2018, 03:17:30 AM »
Wait, these texts are read at matins, not?
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

Anyhow when God was asked he said Eastern Orthodox is true Church and not Catholic Church. So come home and enjoy.

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Re: Typical Psalms and Troparia of the Beatitudes
« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2018, 08:19:17 AM »
Wait, these texts are read at matins, not?

Yes. And their fragments are chosen to read in the Liturgy - the Beatitudes are in fact only stychos then. The regulations what fragments should be read are given in the menaion.
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Offline Bob2

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Re: Typical Psalms and Troparia of the Beatitudes
« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2018, 10:23:11 AM »
Wait, these texts are read at matins, not?

The Canon at Matins is usually the source, which troparia are to be used are then specified in the menaion

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Re: Typical Psalms and Troparia of the Beatitudes
« Reply #16 on: March 12, 2018, 11:49:43 AM »
Dear All:

For the past several months, I have been asking a series of questions on some liturgical topics in several Internet fora (Ustav, Typikon, ByzCath, Monachos, etc.). I hope that this forum will allow me to ask the same questions. I really appreciate the various responses I get in each forum and I hope that this forum will result in a little harvest of new info for me.

Ok, first question in my list:

In your experience, are the FULL Typical Psalms and the Troparia that are supposed to be intercalated between the verses of the Beatitudes, still read or chanted in the Divine Liturgy?

Are there Greek cathedrals and parishes where these are still chanted? (Some have told me yes, but elsewhere I've read that these are used in Greek jurisdictions only by monasteries.) I do note that the Divine Music Project of the St. Anthony's Monastery refers to the Beatitudes and its Troparia.

As for Russian and Serbian practice, I also get conflicting reports (some say that these are chanted only in a few churches and monasteries, others tell me that these are making a "comeback"). I hope someone here could tell me more.

For Greek Cathedrals and Parishes that use the Antiphons at all times, are there those that chant all the verses of the antiphons, and not just one or two?


Thanks!

Pilgrim

Technically, the usual source of Greek parish practice (the Violakis typikon) appoints the typical psalms and beatitudes for regular use on normal Sundays and certain festal celebrations, but according to customary usage today, they are not done outside of monasteries. This development is noted in the book Σύστημα Τυπικού which gives a systematic treatment of modern parish practice.
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Offline ilyazhito

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Re: Typical Psalms and Troparia of the Beatitudes
« Reply #17 on: March 16, 2018, 11:45:31 AM »
Wait, these texts are read at matins, not?

The Canon at Matins is usually the source, which troparia are to be used are then specified in the menaion
Usually the Third and Sixth Odes of the Canon at Matins are the source of the verses. On Sundays, the Octoechos provides the verse for "Glory to the Father", and the Theotokion for "Both now and ever". For other days, use the final two verses of the Sixth Ode.

The Typical Psalms are standard practice in ROCOR (Psalm 102 is usually abbreviated, but it is sometimes sung in full, especially in monasteries, and Psalm 145 is almost always sung in full). OCA uses the Typical Psalms (Verses for the Beatitudes are only standard in the Diocese of the West, Diocese of the South, and Monasteries), and the Ukrainian practice is inconsistent (Ps. 102 is used, Ps. 145 is used, but not always, and there are no verses for the Beatitudes, at least in my experience).

Offline scamandrius

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Re: Typical Psalms and Troparia of the Beatitudes
« Reply #18 on: March 17, 2018, 10:34:59 PM »
Wait, these texts are read at matins, not?

The Canon at Matins is usually the source, which troparia are to be used are then specified in the menaion

On a typical Sunday celebrating the Resurrection the text chanted in between the stichoi of the Beatitudes is taken from the third and sixth odes of the Resurrection Canon in the mode of the week.

To the larger issue here, there are a number of us cantors, some of whom are quite prominent especially in the Greek Archdiocese (I'm not one  of them) who have been steadily trying and with some degrees of success convincing prelates to restore more uses of the psalms in not only the Divine Liturgy but also at Vespers (the 1st Kathisma) and Orthros (the Praises) especially on those Sundays where the Resurrection is the primary commemoration and not shared with commemoration of other saints or feasts.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2018, 10:37:30 PM by scamandrius »
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Re: Typical Psalms and Troparia of the Beatitudes
« Reply #19 on: March 18, 2018, 09:24:59 AM »
Wait, these texts are read at matins, not?

The Canon at Matins is usually the source, which troparia are to be used are then specified in the menaion

On a typical Sunday celebrating the Resurrection the text chanted in between the stichoi of the Beatitudes is taken from the third and sixth odes of the Resurrection Canon in the mode of the week.

To the larger issue here, there are a number of us cantors, some of whom are quite prominent especially in the Greek Archdiocese (I'm not one  of them) who have been steadily trying and with some degrees of success convincing prelates to restore more uses of the psalms in not only the Divine Liturgy but also at Vespers (the 1st Kathisma) and Orthros (the Praises) especially on those Sundays where the Resurrection is the primary commemoration and not shared with commemoration of other saints or feasts.

All of the beatitudes troparia given by the paraklitiki (including the Sunday ones) are actually unique and not taken from the canon. This is why they are listed separately at the end of each day/mode combination.
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