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Author Topic: How Often Must I Forgive My Brother?  (Read 14505 times) Average Rating: 0
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ozgeorge
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« on: October 13, 2008, 01:48:41 PM »

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This topic has been split off from the thread:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,17809.msg259852.html#msg259852


Though she hasn't offended me,
But you have offended her. Doesn't that matter?
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« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2008, 02:18:22 PM »

Though she hasn't offended me,
But you have offended her. Doesn't that matter?

I don't give a d#$%! what a RC bishop needs slow or fast.

I don't give a d#$%! what a RC bishop needs slow or fast.

I don't give a d#$%! what a RC bishop needs slow or fast.
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« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2008, 02:20:22 PM »

Though she hasn't offended me,
But you have offended her. Doesn't that matter?

I don't give a d#$%! what a RC bishop needs slow or fast.

I don't give a d#$%! what a RC bishop needs slow or fast.

I don't give a d#$%! what a RC bishop needs slow or fast.

Clearly it doesn't matter. The only thing that matters to you is you.
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« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2008, 02:26:23 PM »

Though she hasn't offended me,
But you have offended her. Doesn't that matter?

I don't give a d#$%! what a RC bishop needs slow or fast.

I don't give a d#$%! what a RC bishop needs slow or fast.

I don't give a d#$%! what a RC bishop needs slow or fast.

Clearly it doesn't matter. The only thing that matters to you is you.

I don't give a d#$%! what a RC bishop needs slow or fast.

I don't give a d#$%! what a RC bishop needs slow or fast.

I don't give a d#$%! what a RC bishop needs slow or fast.


« Last Edit: October 13, 2008, 02:27:19 PM by orthodoxlurker » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2008, 02:35:02 PM »

^ Brother, God is Love.  You're sure hating everybody right about now and for no good reason.

God counseled Cain before Cain killed his brother and yet, Cain was afraid of the retribution.  Do not be like Cain....   Embarrassed
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« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2008, 02:40:30 PM »

Though she hasn't offended me,
But you have offended her. Doesn't that matter?

I don't give a d#$%! what a RC bishop needs slow or fast.

I don't give a d#$%! what a RC bishop needs slow or fast.

I don't give a d#$%! what a RC bishop needs slow or fast.

Clearly it doesn't matter. The only thing that matters to you is you.

It would seem you are right, George.  He doesn't care who he offends as long as he is championing what HE deems worthy.  Orthodoxlurker would steam roll right over Christ Himself if He committed what orthodoxlurker (in his great wisdom) viewed as heresy!

Edited for clarity
« Last Edit: October 13, 2008, 02:41:11 PM by GreekChef » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2008, 03:03:27 PM »

You're sure hating everybody right about now ...

Huh?

Why do you continue making such baseless assumptions?
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« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2008, 03:09:26 PM »

Huh?

Why do you continue making such baseless assumptions?

Your tone and attitude give it all away.  Why post the same thing, 3 times, with increasing fonts in consecutive posts....
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« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2008, 03:14:40 PM »

Huh?

Why do you continue making such baseless assumptions?

Your tone and attitude give it all away.  Why post the same thing, 3 times, with increasing fonts in consecutive posts....

Could you suggest me a more proper fashion to respond to ozGeorge's provocation?
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« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2008, 03:19:05 PM »

Huh?

Why do you continue making such baseless assumptions?

Your tone and attitude give it all away.  Why post the same thing, 3 times, with increasing fonts in consecutive posts....

Could you suggest me a more proper fashion to respond to ozGeorge's provocation?

I'm starting to feel like a broken record... how about humility, love, and forgiveness?  Smiley
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« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2008, 03:31:38 PM »

how about humility, love, and forgiveness?  Smiley

You mean humility and love like when you accused me of "steam roll right over Christ Himself" for not obeying your particular wish that I reject fundamentally?

Or you mean forgiveness without repentance, so I become an assistant of what I see unacceptable and actually support what I oppose?
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« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2008, 03:36:10 PM »

how about humility, love, and forgiveness?  Smiley

You mean humility and love like when you accused me of "steam roll right over Christ Himself" for not obeying your particular wish that I reject fundamentally?

Or you mean forgiveness without repentance, so I become an assistant of what I see unacceptable and actually support what I oppose?

Funny how you respond to the above, but refuse to respond to this:

Quote
don't even know how to begin to respond to this.  It is completely beyond me...

I have repeatedly tried to answer the questions asked of me, and I have repeatedly stated that I DO NOT BELIEVE THE ORTHODOX CHURCH SHOULD OVERLOOK THE DOCTRINAL, DOGMATIC, LITURGICAL, ETC. DIFFERENCES BETWEEN HER AND THE CATHOLIC CHURCH!  UNITY, TO ME, MEANS THAT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH COMES INTO THE ORTHODOX CHURCH WHEN THOSE DIFFERENCES HAVE BEEN OVERCOME, NOT OVERLOOKED.  I REFUSE TO MAKE JUDGEMENTS ABOUT THE STATE OF GRACE OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH AS IT IS NOW.  WHAT IS THE PROBLEM WITH THAT?

I'm not sure how much clearer I can be.  Furthermore, I have repeatedly stated that I was not lecturing anyone on humility, simply stating that, whether we Orthodox are "right" or not (which, yes, I believe we are), I believe that Christ has called us to humility, love, and forgiveness.

And what, Orthodoxlurker, does my being a woman and a Presbytera have to do with anything? 

Now, I have repeatedly asked for discussion in Christian love, to dispense with the harsh tones and move forward, and have repeatedly been ignored and attacked.

Or this:
Quote
Are you implying that clergy are rats?  Or women are rats?  I'm confused.  Go ahead, hurl your insults.  Let us know how you really feel.
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« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2008, 03:39:06 PM »

Or you mean forgiveness without repentance, so I become an assistant of what I see unacceptable and actually support what I oppose?

This is a tangent:

Forgiveness does not require repentance; in fact, it is a divine quality to give forgiveness without repentance (as Christ did upon the Cross).  Repentance is needed in our relationship to God and to Humanity, but it doesn't mean that our forgiveness is dependent on our repentance; for if it were, we would never be able to repent enough for what we've done in our lives, and certainly wouldn't deserve even the smallest droplet of God's Divine Compassion and Forgiveness.

It is our job to forgive wrongs done to us; however, forgiveness does not mean acceptance of the person as a friend, confidant, authority; heck, forgiveness doesn't mean entering into  Communion with them.  Forgiving the RC church for their error in departing from Holy Orthodoxy doesn't mean we bring them into communion, or state that we're ready for them to re-enter the fold, or anything like that.  It's just about treating humans with human dignity.

Your position (that you don't care about RC Bishops and what they think) is not mutually exclusive to Pres. Mari's position (that we need to be forgiving of them if/when they come back to the table); all we want is Unity in the Church (which is prayed for in many services), but a Unity founded upon Belief and Practice.
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« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2008, 03:45:24 PM »

Funny how you respond to the above, but refuse to respond to this:

Quote
don't even know how to begin to respond to this.  It is completely beyond me...

I have repeatedly tried to answer the questions asked of me, and I have repeatedly stated that I DO NOT BELIEVE THE ORTHODOX CHURCH SHOULD OVERLOOK THE DOCTRINAL, DOGMATIC, LITURGICAL, ETC. DIFFERENCES BETWEEN HER AND THE CATHOLIC CHURCH!  UNITY, TO ME, MEANS THAT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH COMES INTO THE ORTHODOX CHURCH WHEN THOSE DIFFERENCES HAVE BEEN OVERCOME, NOT OVERLOOKED.  I REFUSE TO MAKE JUDGEMENTS ABOUT THE STATE OF GRACE OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH AS IT IS NOW.  WHAT IS THE PROBLEM WITH THAT?

I'm not sure how much clearer I can be.  Furthermore, I have repeatedly stated that I was not lecturing anyone on humility, simply stating that, whether we Orthodox are "right" or not (which, yes, I believe we are), I believe that Christ has called us to humility, love, and forgiveness.

And what, Orthodoxlurker, does my being a woman and a Presbytera have to do with anything? 

Now, I have repeatedly asked for discussion in Christian love, to dispense with the harsh tones and move forward, and have repeatedly been ignored and attacked.

Because you haven't clarified how:

a) one should express "humility" to an insult of a RC bishop to MP, implicitly accepting he is entitled to mandate his wishes to remain in heresy while we are supposed to unite with him and his heresises "in humility";

because

b) we need to "evangelize" them, in spite we know they are evangelized and eve you, yourself, don't think they can't be saved

BTW, I find a poor attitude to provoke someone to repeat what I see sinfull behavioiur.

Though, in this thread, I can't see anything wrong I said, anything I wouldn't repeat.

So it's not about love, friendship. It's about the stance, about the choice, about the principles, about the Faith.

I can't compromise on that.

Stay well.
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« Reply #14 on: October 13, 2008, 03:48:56 PM »

b) we need to "evangelize" them, in spite we know they are evangelized and eve you, yourself, don't think they can't be saved

Who has been evangelized?  Most Roman Catholics do not even know who the Orthodox are, so they obviously haven't been (at least not in the sense of bringing them back to the True Church).
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« Reply #15 on: October 13, 2008, 03:51:41 PM »


Forgiveness does not require repentance; in fact, it is a divine quality to give forgiveness without repentance (as Christ did upon the Cross).  

a) I don't have Divine qualities.

b) No forgiveness without repentance. The repentance is not required for rightous to be proved right, but to sinner/errer to see his sins/errors.

By forgiving without repentance, a forgiver participates in the committed sin post festum and is supporting and co-authoring future sins.

No compromise on that.
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« Reply #16 on: October 13, 2008, 04:06:30 PM »

Funny how you respond to the above, but refuse to respond to this:

Quote
don't even know how to begin to respond to this.  It is completely beyond me...

I have repeatedly tried to answer the questions asked of me, and I have repeatedly stated that I DO NOT BELIEVE THE ORTHODOX CHURCH SHOULD OVERLOOK THE DOCTRINAL, DOGMATIC, LITURGICAL, ETC. DIFFERENCES BETWEEN HER AND THE CATHOLIC CHURCH!  UNITY, TO ME, MEANS THAT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH COMES INTO THE ORTHODOX CHURCH WHEN THOSE DIFFERENCES HAVE BEEN OVERCOME, NOT OVERLOOKED.  I REFUSE TO MAKE JUDGEMENTS ABOUT THE STATE OF GRACE OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH AS IT IS NOW.  WHAT IS THE PROBLEM WITH THAT?

I'm not sure how much clearer I can be.  Furthermore, I have repeatedly stated that I was not lecturing anyone on humility, simply stating that, whether we Orthodox are "right" or not (which, yes, I believe we are), I believe that Christ has called us to humility, love, and forgiveness.

And what, Orthodoxlurker, does my being a woman and a Presbytera have to do with anything? 

Now, I have repeatedly asked for discussion in Christian love, to dispense with the harsh tones and move forward, and have repeatedly been ignored and attacked.

Because you haven't clarified how:

a) one should express "humility" to an insult of a RC bishop to MP, implicitly accepting he is entitled to mandate his wishes to remain in heresy while we are supposed to unite with him and his heresises "in humility";

because

b) we need to "evangelize" them, in spite we know they are evangelized and eve you, yourself, don't think they can't be saved

BTW, I find a poor attitude to provoke someone to repeat what I see sinfull behavioiur.

Though, in this thread, I can't see anything wrong I said, anything I wouldn't repeat.

So it's not about love, friendship. It's about the stance, about the choice, about the principles, about the Faith.

I can't compromise on that.

Stay well.

This has become ludicrous.

a) Did Christ not show humility to those who flogged Him, put the crown of thorns on Him, and crucified Him?  Why SHOULDN'T we show humility?  That is what Christ commands!  And I will NOT repeat myself again after this post, so for the LAST time, I DO NOT BELIEVE WE SHOULD BE REUNITED WITH THE RCC IN THEIR CURRENT STATE!

b) is it not a contradiction that you believe that they have no grace and are not saved and yet think that they do not need to be evangelized to?  I NEVER said I don't think they can be saved.  

Who is provoking here?  You are the one who has DEMANDED responses, clarifications, and answers from ME repeatedly.  I ask for ONE response from you, and all of a sudden I am provoking?  I don't think so, my friend...

I will not comment on whether you should take back what you have said or not.  That is a personal criticism I will not make, as I am not a priest.  I will leave that to your spiritual father.

Quote
So it's not about love, friendship. It's about the stance, about the choice, about the principles, about the Faith.

There, my friend, we certainly disagree.  It's not about love?  Then what, in heaven's name, did Christ suffer and die on the cross for?  So that He could stand on principle?  For the stance?  For the choice?  No.  He sacrificed Himself for LOVE.  And that's what He calls us to.  LOVE.  Standing on principle and choice is the Pharisaical way.  Try reading Matthew 23:1-36.


WHAT FAITH IS THERE WITHOUT LOVE? NONE.  1 Corinthians 13:13 says:
Quote
And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
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« Reply #17 on: October 13, 2008, 04:07:26 PM »


Forgiveness does not require repentance; in fact, it is a divine quality to give forgiveness without repentance (as Christ did upon the Cross).  

a) I don't have Divine qualities.

b) No forgiveness without repentance. The repentance is not required for rightous to be proved right, but to sinner/errer to see his sins/errors.

By forgiving without repentance, a forgiver participates in the committed sin post festum and is supporting and co-authoring future sins.

No compromise on that.

Guess someone should have filled Christ in on that before He suffered and died on the Cross for us.
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« Reply #18 on: October 13, 2008, 04:12:09 PM »

Could you suggest me a more proper fashion to respond to ozGeorge's provocation?

I find that doing nothing works for me, keeps me out of trouble.   angel
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« Reply #19 on: October 13, 2008, 04:15:07 PM »


b) is it not a contradiction that you believe that they have no grace and are not saved and yet think that they do not need to be evangelized to?

Huh?

I've stated exactly the opposite, I think twice on this discussion, while at least once on this very page.

I'll obey your wish not to engage in further debate with you.
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« Reply #20 on: October 13, 2008, 04:17:14 PM »

...
I find that doing nothing works for me, keeps me out of trouble.   angel

Cheesy

Beside the different temper you and me have, I did want to show the attitude on this subject to him.
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« Reply #21 on: October 13, 2008, 04:24:36 PM »


b) is it not a contradiction that you believe that they have no grace and are not saved and yet think that they do not need to be evangelized to?

Huh?

I've stated exactly the opposite, I think twice on this discussion, while at least once on this very page.

I'll obey your wish not to engage in further debate with you.

I guess this is the "if you're not going to play my way, I'll take my ball and go home" part of the discussion, huh?

I have asked SEVERAL times to engage in discussion in a LOVING Christian manner, absent of harsh tones.  I said I will not repeat myself again.  I DID NOT say I do not wish to engage in further debate.  Why is everything so black and white?  Or is it just that when someone says something you can't argue with (such as the rest of my last post), you don't want to talk anymore.  This makes me sad.

You have said that the RCs do not need to be evangelized to.  Yet you believe that in their current state, they have no grace, are not saved, are not part of the Church, etc. (I'm not disagreeing with that part).  Doesn't that state necessitate evangelizing so that they can come into the Holy Orthodox Church?  You said yourself that you would be okay with them renouncing their heresies and coming into the Church.  But how can they do that if we do not evangelize to them? This is a serious question, I'm not trying to provoke you with this.  Should you wish to discuss further, I think this is a good topic.  I'm not sure if we have different understandings of evangelizing, or if the method of evangelizing that was discussed previously (being ecumenism) is disagreeable to you, or where the problem lies.  I would like to understand this if you feel the need to discuss further.  Should you like to discuss further, I will ask only that we dispense with the harsh tones and discuss in a loving manner.  I hold no ill feelings toward you, my brother.  
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« Reply #22 on: October 13, 2008, 04:28:21 PM »

Beside the different temper you and me have, I did want to show the attitude on this subject to him.

We may have the SAME temper, except that my temper got me nowhere besides a downward spiral and I had to re-learn how to deal with life without temper.  I can still get animated but not emotional - big difference.

The Roman Catholic Church doesn't give me any reason to be angry; I'm sorry that you're still affected by what the Roman Catholics have done and I know that in all of Scripture/Holy Fathers/Holy Tradition, vengenance is not something Orthodox Christians practice for as St. Paul said that we are to walk as Children of Light (Ephesians 5:8 ).  Would a Child of Light pick a fight with a Presbytera, especially one who means very, very, very well, whether or not you agreed with her?   Huh
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« Reply #23 on: October 13, 2008, 04:34:46 PM »

I thought we orthodox don't put to much emphases on the Crucifixion of the lord but on the whole scenario.but mostly the resurrection that completes everything for our resurrection unto life or resurrection unto condemnation.....not like the catholics and protestant do,, they preach it non stop and thats it.plus  some mentally ill catholic's pray to have and to suffer the same wounds as christ....i never heard any orthodox say christ has died for you...i have heard them say christ has reserrected for us and brought us from death unto eternal life.....maybe i wasn't paying attention or something....SmileyCentral.com" border="0
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« Reply #24 on: October 13, 2008, 04:36:58 PM »

I thought we orthodox don't put to much emphases on the Crucifixion of the lord but on the whole scenario.but mostly the resurrection that completes everything for our resurrection unto life or resurrection unto condemnation.....not like the catholics and protestant do,, they preach it non stop and thats it.plus  some mentally ill catholic pray to suffer the same wounds as christ....i never heard any orthodox say christ has died for you...i have heard them say christ has reserrected for us and brought us from death unto eternal life.....maybe i wasn't paying attention or something....SmileyCentral.com" border="0
Wow, this seems a bit harsh considering that Christ says that we must pick up our cross and follow him, and the scriptures state that we die with Christ, and St. Paul himself states that he bears the wounds of Christ in his body.
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« Reply #25 on: October 13, 2008, 04:42:34 PM »


I've stated exactly the opposite, I think twice on this discussion, while at least once on this very page.

I'll obey your wish not to engage in further debate with you.

Yet you believe that in their current state, they have no grace, are not saved, ...

Read the enlarged and underlined part.
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« Reply #26 on: October 13, 2008, 04:44:20 PM »

I thought we orthodox don't put to much emphases on the Crucifixion of the lord but on the whole scenario.but mostly the resurrection that completes everything for our resurrection unto life or resurrection unto condemnation...

Me too.
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« Reply #27 on: October 13, 2008, 04:45:38 PM »

I thought we orthodox don't put to much emphases on the Crucifixion of the lord but on the whole scenario.but mostly the resurrection that completes everything for our resurrection unto life or resurrection unto condemnation.....not like the catholics and protestant do,, they preach it non stop and thats it.plus  some mentally ill catholic's pray to have and to suffer the same wounds as christ....i never heard any orthodox say christ has died for you...i have heard them say christ has reserrected for us and brought us from death unto eternal life.....maybe i wasn't paying attention or something....SmileyCentral.com" border="0

Give me a break.  I was making a point.  Yes, of course the Resurrection was part of the whole scenario.  And stop making judgements about me, and comparing me to other people and to Catholics.  It's getting old.  I don't judge you and make assumptions about you.  I expect the same courtesy.
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« Reply #28 on: October 13, 2008, 04:46:08 PM »


I've stated exactly the opposite, I think twice on this discussion, while at least once on this very page.

I'll obey your wish not to engage in further debate with you.

Yet you believe that in their current state, they have no grace, are not saved, ...

Read the enlarged and underlined part.

So much for loving Christian diologue.  I don't know why I bother.
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« Reply #29 on: October 13, 2008, 04:46:18 PM »

...especially one who means very, very, very well, whether or not you agreed with her?   Huh

You now where the road paved with good intentions can lead?
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« Reply #30 on: October 13, 2008, 04:48:29 PM »

...especially one who means very, very, very well, whether or not you agreed with her?   Huh

You now where the road paved with good intentions can lead?

THIS IS TOTALLY UNCALLED FOR.  YOU WANT TO DAMN ME TO HELL?  YOU TAKE IT UP WITH MY SPIRITUAL FATHER.  HIS NAME IS FATHER GRIGORIOS AND YOU CAN FIND HIM AT THE METROPOLIS OF ATLANTA.  IF YOU NEED THE PHONE NUMBER, I'LL BE HAPPY TO PM IT TO YOU.

THAT IS THE NASTIEST, MOST UNCHRISTIAN THING I HAVE EVER READ ON THIS FORUM.
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« Reply #31 on: October 13, 2008, 04:48:45 PM »



So much for loving Christian diologue.  I don't know why I bother.

Well, don't.

You neither read what I write, nor understand my complain.

Just realize not all Orthodox fit your criteria and stop commanding us "musts" and we'll all be fine.
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« Reply #32 on: October 13, 2008, 04:50:22 PM »

a) I don't have Divine qualities.

By virtue of your being created in God's image and likeness, you do; now, if you chose not to exercise them, then that's your prerogative. But it is you choice, not your nature, to not exhibit Divine Qualities.

b) No forgiveness without repentance. The repentance is not required for rightous to be proved right, but to sinner/errer to see his sins/errors.

By forgiving without repentance, a forgiver participates in the committed sin post festum and is supporting and co-authoring future sins.

No compromise on that.

No compromise?  You've just spouted heresy, my friend.  I say this not as a mark of shame, but rather for you to re-think your position a bit.  Saying that the forgiver becomes a co-author of future sin by forgiving without repentance places Christ as the co-author of sin, which He is not.
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« Reply #33 on: October 13, 2008, 04:51:12 PM »

..
THIS IS TOTALLY UNCALLED FOR.  YOU WANT TO DAMN ME TO HELL? 

Cool off a bit. How could you make such a conclusion that I want to damn you to hell?
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« Reply #34 on: October 13, 2008, 04:54:05 PM »

...

No compromise?  You've just spouted heresy, my friend.  I say this not as a mark of shame, but rather for you to re-think your position a bit.  Saying that the forgiver becomes a co-author of future sin by forgiving without repentance places Christ as the co-author of sin, which He is not.

I'd kindly ask you to support your statement by a quotation of a Father, or by a decision of a council. Or at least by a cathehezis.
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« Reply #35 on: October 13, 2008, 04:59:57 PM »

I thought we orthodox don't put to much emphases on the Crucifixion of the lord but on the whole scenario.but mostly the resurrection that completes everything for our resurrection unto life or resurrection unto condemnation.....not like the catholics and protestant do,, they preach it non stop and thats it.plus  some mentally ill catholic's pray to have and to suffer the same wounds as christ....i never heard any orthodox say christ has died for you...i have heard them say christ has reserrected for us and brought us from death unto eternal life.....maybe i wasn't paying attention or something....SmileyCentral.com" border="0

Give me a break.  I was making a point.  Yes, of course the Resurrection was part of the whole scenario.  And stop making judgements about me, and comparing me to other people and to Catholics.  It's getting old.  I don't judge you and make assumptions about you.  I expect the same courtesy.

I really honestly didn't address this to you .if i wanted to address this to you . i would of put you in the quote box...but i didn't...but i wrote for anybody to answer my question..i really apologies to you if i offended you in anyway,not meaning to sorry...SmileyCentral.com" border="0
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« Reply #36 on: October 13, 2008, 05:00:45 PM »

I'd kindly ask you to support your statement by a quotation of a Father, or by a decision of a council. Or at least by a cathehezis.
Um...how about the Gospel?
"Fatrher forgive them, they know not what they do".
So, you are accusing not only Christ, but His Father of sin when you say:
By forgiving without repentance, a forgiver participates in the committed sin post festum and is supporting and co-authoring future sins.

No compromise on that.
Don't you think it's strange that you need to use a Latin phrase to support your heresy?
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« Reply #37 on: October 13, 2008, 05:01:58 PM »

I thought we orthodox don't put to much emphases on the Crucifixion of the lord but on the whole scenario.but mostly the resurrection that completes everything for our resurrection unto life or resurrection unto condemnation.....not like the catholics and protestant do,, they preach it non stop and thats it.plus  some mentally ill catholic's pray to have and to suffer the same wounds as christ....i never heard any orthodox say christ has died for you...i have heard them say christ has reserrected for us and brought us from death unto eternal life.....maybe i wasn't paying attention or something....SmileyCentral.com" border="0

Give me a break.  I was making a point.  Yes, of course the Resurrection was part of the whole scenario.  And stop making judgements about me, and comparing me to other people and to Catholics.  It's getting old.  I don't judge you and make assumptions about you.  I expect the same courtesy.

I really honestly didn't address this to you .if i wanted to address this to you . i would of put you in the quote box...but i didn't...but i wrote for anybody to answer my question..i really apologies to if i ofended you in anyway,not meaning to sorry...SmileyCentral.com" border="0

My apologies if I misunderstood you.  This thread has gotten a little more heated than I am used to...  Please forgive...
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« Reply #38 on: October 13, 2008, 05:12:13 PM »

...
So, you are accusing not only Christ, but His Father of sin when you say:
...

Again, I'm asking something more from your free interpretation. Because, see, you, and particularly you, are not my criterion of Orthodoxy, believe it or not.

Quote
Don't you think it's strange that you need to use a Latin phrase to support your heresy?

No, I don't, because the only remainng word I know without a dictionary would be "veronauka", and Cleveland wouldn't understand it. Are you going to bring something else against me? Why would you need it if my "unorthodoxy" would be apparent to many? Or is it for the sake of your own uncertainty?
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« Reply #39 on: October 13, 2008, 05:16:13 PM »

...
So, you are accusing not only Christ, but His Father of sin when you say:
...

Again, I'm asking something more from your free interpretation.
Exactly how many ways can Christ's words "Father forgive them they know not what they do" be interpreted?

Because, see, you, and particularly you, are not my criterion of Orthodoxy, believe it or not.
That's because you are a heretic.
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« Reply #40 on: October 13, 2008, 05:17:44 PM »

I was reading somewhere (maybe this board) or maybe it was one of those rare visits to Mo' Nachos, that someone thought that the biggest hurdle with re-uniting with Rome wouldn't be theological, but practical.  He thought it would be liturgical discipline...and the lack thereof from the Roman side.

From hearing about all those "Clown masses" and other abominations, this speculation sounds plausible to me.

I really think we need to keep in mind that abuses on the level of "clown masses" really are extremely rare.

The fact that bthey happen at all is cause for concern. Angry
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« Reply #41 on: October 13, 2008, 05:22:39 PM »


That's because you are a heretic.

When I hear it from Orthodox, I'd be worried.

When Cleveland, or someone else, bring quotation, I'll consider it.

When hearing from you... you know what effect does it make to me?
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« Reply #42 on: October 13, 2008, 05:26:43 PM »


That's because you are a heretic.

When I hear it from Orthodox, I'd be worried.

When Cleveland, or someone else, bring quotation, I'll consider it.

When hearing from you... you know what effect does it make to me?

And here comes the time for me to repeat "the heresy" again:

I don't give a d^%$#|! what a RC bishop needs fast or slow.

I don't give a d^%$#|! what a RC bishop needs fast or slow.

I don't give a d^%$#|! what a RC bishop needs fast or slow.
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« Reply #43 on: October 13, 2008, 05:27:36 PM »





My apologies if I misunderstood you.  This thread has gotten a little more heated than I am used to...  Please forgive...
[/quote]





God forgive's and i forgive .....SmileyCentral.com" border="0
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« Reply #44 on: October 13, 2008, 05:30:05 PM »


If I'm allowed to comment my brother's stance:

Let them stay "on the other side of the fence" (stay "them"), because they are not us. Unless, of course, they become "us", which each and every one of them, and all together, can easily do any day, as did, for instance, our beloved Fr. Ambrose.

But does becoming "us" mean they  must cease to be latin and western? Which seems to be what both you and stashko are getting at. As I said, it's just the impression that is coming across and may not be your actual opinion.
 


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