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Author Topic: How Often Must I Forgive My Brother?  (Read 14513 times) Average Rating: 0
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ozgeorge
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« on: October 13, 2008, 01:48:41 PM »

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This topic has been split off from the thread:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,17809.msg259852.html#msg259852


Though she hasn't offended me,
But you have offended her. Doesn't that matter?
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« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2008, 02:18:22 PM »

Though she hasn't offended me,
But you have offended her. Doesn't that matter?

I don't give a d#$%! what a RC bishop needs slow or fast.

I don't give a d#$%! what a RC bishop needs slow or fast.

I don't give a d#$%! what a RC bishop needs slow or fast.
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« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2008, 02:20:22 PM »

Though she hasn't offended me,
But you have offended her. Doesn't that matter?

I don't give a d#$%! what a RC bishop needs slow or fast.

I don't give a d#$%! what a RC bishop needs slow or fast.

I don't give a d#$%! what a RC bishop needs slow or fast.

Clearly it doesn't matter. The only thing that matters to you is you.
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« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2008, 02:26:23 PM »

Though she hasn't offended me,
But you have offended her. Doesn't that matter?

I don't give a d#$%! what a RC bishop needs slow or fast.

I don't give a d#$%! what a RC bishop needs slow or fast.

I don't give a d#$%! what a RC bishop needs slow or fast.

Clearly it doesn't matter. The only thing that matters to you is you.

I don't give a d#$%! what a RC bishop needs slow or fast.

I don't give a d#$%! what a RC bishop needs slow or fast.

I don't give a d#$%! what a RC bishop needs slow or fast.


« Last Edit: October 13, 2008, 02:27:19 PM by orthodoxlurker » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2008, 02:35:02 PM »

^ Brother, God is Love.  You're sure hating everybody right about now and for no good reason.

God counseled Cain before Cain killed his brother and yet, Cain was afraid of the retribution.  Do not be like Cain....   Embarrassed
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« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2008, 02:40:30 PM »

Though she hasn't offended me,
But you have offended her. Doesn't that matter?

I don't give a d#$%! what a RC bishop needs slow or fast.

I don't give a d#$%! what a RC bishop needs slow or fast.

I don't give a d#$%! what a RC bishop needs slow or fast.

Clearly it doesn't matter. The only thing that matters to you is you.

It would seem you are right, George.  He doesn't care who he offends as long as he is championing what HE deems worthy.  Orthodoxlurker would steam roll right over Christ Himself if He committed what orthodoxlurker (in his great wisdom) viewed as heresy!

Edited for clarity
« Last Edit: October 13, 2008, 02:41:11 PM by GreekChef » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2008, 03:03:27 PM »

You're sure hating everybody right about now ...

Huh?

Why do you continue making such baseless assumptions?
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« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2008, 03:09:26 PM »

Huh?

Why do you continue making such baseless assumptions?

Your tone and attitude give it all away.  Why post the same thing, 3 times, with increasing fonts in consecutive posts....
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« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2008, 03:14:40 PM »

Huh?

Why do you continue making such baseless assumptions?

Your tone and attitude give it all away.  Why post the same thing, 3 times, with increasing fonts in consecutive posts....

Could you suggest me a more proper fashion to respond to ozGeorge's provocation?
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« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2008, 03:19:05 PM »

Huh?

Why do you continue making such baseless assumptions?

Your tone and attitude give it all away.  Why post the same thing, 3 times, with increasing fonts in consecutive posts....

Could you suggest me a more proper fashion to respond to ozGeorge's provocation?

I'm starting to feel like a broken record... how about humility, love, and forgiveness?  Smiley
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« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2008, 03:31:38 PM »

how about humility, love, and forgiveness?  Smiley

You mean humility and love like when you accused me of "steam roll right over Christ Himself" for not obeying your particular wish that I reject fundamentally?

Or you mean forgiveness without repentance, so I become an assistant of what I see unacceptable and actually support what I oppose?
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« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2008, 03:36:10 PM »

how about humility, love, and forgiveness?  Smiley

You mean humility and love like when you accused me of "steam roll right over Christ Himself" for not obeying your particular wish that I reject fundamentally?

Or you mean forgiveness without repentance, so I become an assistant of what I see unacceptable and actually support what I oppose?

Funny how you respond to the above, but refuse to respond to this:

Quote
don't even know how to begin to respond to this.  It is completely beyond me...

I have repeatedly tried to answer the questions asked of me, and I have repeatedly stated that I DO NOT BELIEVE THE ORTHODOX CHURCH SHOULD OVERLOOK THE DOCTRINAL, DOGMATIC, LITURGICAL, ETC. DIFFERENCES BETWEEN HER AND THE CATHOLIC CHURCH!  UNITY, TO ME, MEANS THAT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH COMES INTO THE ORTHODOX CHURCH WHEN THOSE DIFFERENCES HAVE BEEN OVERCOME, NOT OVERLOOKED.  I REFUSE TO MAKE JUDGEMENTS ABOUT THE STATE OF GRACE OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH AS IT IS NOW.  WHAT IS THE PROBLEM WITH THAT?

I'm not sure how much clearer I can be.  Furthermore, I have repeatedly stated that I was not lecturing anyone on humility, simply stating that, whether we Orthodox are "right" or not (which, yes, I believe we are), I believe that Christ has called us to humility, love, and forgiveness.

And what, Orthodoxlurker, does my being a woman and a Presbytera have to do with anything? 

Now, I have repeatedly asked for discussion in Christian love, to dispense with the harsh tones and move forward, and have repeatedly been ignored and attacked.

Or this:
Quote
Are you implying that clergy are rats?  Or women are rats?  I'm confused.  Go ahead, hurl your insults.  Let us know how you really feel.
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« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2008, 03:39:06 PM »

Or you mean forgiveness without repentance, so I become an assistant of what I see unacceptable and actually support what I oppose?

This is a tangent:

Forgiveness does not require repentance; in fact, it is a divine quality to give forgiveness without repentance (as Christ did upon the Cross).  Repentance is needed in our relationship to God and to Humanity, but it doesn't mean that our forgiveness is dependent on our repentance; for if it were, we would never be able to repent enough for what we've done in our lives, and certainly wouldn't deserve even the smallest droplet of God's Divine Compassion and Forgiveness.

It is our job to forgive wrongs done to us; however, forgiveness does not mean acceptance of the person as a friend, confidant, authority; heck, forgiveness doesn't mean entering into  Communion with them.  Forgiving the RC church for their error in departing from Holy Orthodoxy doesn't mean we bring them into communion, or state that we're ready for them to re-enter the fold, or anything like that.  It's just about treating humans with human dignity.

Your position (that you don't care about RC Bishops and what they think) is not mutually exclusive to Pres. Mari's position (that we need to be forgiving of them if/when they come back to the table); all we want is Unity in the Church (which is prayed for in many services), but a Unity founded upon Belief and Practice.
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« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2008, 03:45:24 PM »

Funny how you respond to the above, but refuse to respond to this:

Quote
don't even know how to begin to respond to this.  It is completely beyond me...

I have repeatedly tried to answer the questions asked of me, and I have repeatedly stated that I DO NOT BELIEVE THE ORTHODOX CHURCH SHOULD OVERLOOK THE DOCTRINAL, DOGMATIC, LITURGICAL, ETC. DIFFERENCES BETWEEN HER AND THE CATHOLIC CHURCH!  UNITY, TO ME, MEANS THAT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH COMES INTO THE ORTHODOX CHURCH WHEN THOSE DIFFERENCES HAVE BEEN OVERCOME, NOT OVERLOOKED.  I REFUSE TO MAKE JUDGEMENTS ABOUT THE STATE OF GRACE OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH AS IT IS NOW.  WHAT IS THE PROBLEM WITH THAT?

I'm not sure how much clearer I can be.  Furthermore, I have repeatedly stated that I was not lecturing anyone on humility, simply stating that, whether we Orthodox are "right" or not (which, yes, I believe we are), I believe that Christ has called us to humility, love, and forgiveness.

And what, Orthodoxlurker, does my being a woman and a Presbytera have to do with anything? 

Now, I have repeatedly asked for discussion in Christian love, to dispense with the harsh tones and move forward, and have repeatedly been ignored and attacked.

Because you haven't clarified how:

a) one should express "humility" to an insult of a RC bishop to MP, implicitly accepting he is entitled to mandate his wishes to remain in heresy while we are supposed to unite with him and his heresises "in humility";

because

b) we need to "evangelize" them, in spite we know they are evangelized and eve you, yourself, don't think they can't be saved

BTW, I find a poor attitude to provoke someone to repeat what I see sinfull behavioiur.

Though, in this thread, I can't see anything wrong I said, anything I wouldn't repeat.

So it's not about love, friendship. It's about the stance, about the choice, about the principles, about the Faith.

I can't compromise on that.

Stay well.
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« Reply #14 on: October 13, 2008, 03:48:56 PM »

b) we need to "evangelize" them, in spite we know they are evangelized and eve you, yourself, don't think they can't be saved

Who has been evangelized?  Most Roman Catholics do not even know who the Orthodox are, so they obviously haven't been (at least not in the sense of bringing them back to the True Church).
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« Reply #15 on: October 13, 2008, 03:51:41 PM »


Forgiveness does not require repentance; in fact, it is a divine quality to give forgiveness without repentance (as Christ did upon the Cross).  

a) I don't have Divine qualities.

b) No forgiveness without repentance. The repentance is not required for rightous to be proved right, but to sinner/errer to see his sins/errors.

By forgiving without repentance, a forgiver participates in the committed sin post festum and is supporting and co-authoring future sins.

No compromise on that.
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« Reply #16 on: October 13, 2008, 04:06:30 PM »

Funny how you respond to the above, but refuse to respond to this:

Quote
don't even know how to begin to respond to this.  It is completely beyond me...

I have repeatedly tried to answer the questions asked of me, and I have repeatedly stated that I DO NOT BELIEVE THE ORTHODOX CHURCH SHOULD OVERLOOK THE DOCTRINAL, DOGMATIC, LITURGICAL, ETC. DIFFERENCES BETWEEN HER AND THE CATHOLIC CHURCH!  UNITY, TO ME, MEANS THAT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH COMES INTO THE ORTHODOX CHURCH WHEN THOSE DIFFERENCES HAVE BEEN OVERCOME, NOT OVERLOOKED.  I REFUSE TO MAKE JUDGEMENTS ABOUT THE STATE OF GRACE OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH AS IT IS NOW.  WHAT IS THE PROBLEM WITH THAT?

I'm not sure how much clearer I can be.  Furthermore, I have repeatedly stated that I was not lecturing anyone on humility, simply stating that, whether we Orthodox are "right" or not (which, yes, I believe we are), I believe that Christ has called us to humility, love, and forgiveness.

And what, Orthodoxlurker, does my being a woman and a Presbytera have to do with anything? 

Now, I have repeatedly asked for discussion in Christian love, to dispense with the harsh tones and move forward, and have repeatedly been ignored and attacked.

Because you haven't clarified how:

a) one should express "humility" to an insult of a RC bishop to MP, implicitly accepting he is entitled to mandate his wishes to remain in heresy while we are supposed to unite with him and his heresises "in humility";

because

b) we need to "evangelize" them, in spite we know they are evangelized and eve you, yourself, don't think they can't be saved

BTW, I find a poor attitude to provoke someone to repeat what I see sinfull behavioiur.

Though, in this thread, I can't see anything wrong I said, anything I wouldn't repeat.

So it's not about love, friendship. It's about the stance, about the choice, about the principles, about the Faith.

I can't compromise on that.

Stay well.

This has become ludicrous.

a) Did Christ not show humility to those who flogged Him, put the crown of thorns on Him, and crucified Him?  Why SHOULDN'T we show humility?  That is what Christ commands!  And I will NOT repeat myself again after this post, so for the LAST time, I DO NOT BELIEVE WE SHOULD BE REUNITED WITH THE RCC IN THEIR CURRENT STATE!

b) is it not a contradiction that you believe that they have no grace and are not saved and yet think that they do not need to be evangelized to?  I NEVER said I don't think they can be saved.  

Who is provoking here?  You are the one who has DEMANDED responses, clarifications, and answers from ME repeatedly.  I ask for ONE response from you, and all of a sudden I am provoking?  I don't think so, my friend...

I will not comment on whether you should take back what you have said or not.  That is a personal criticism I will not make, as I am not a priest.  I will leave that to your spiritual father.

Quote
So it's not about love, friendship. It's about the stance, about the choice, about the principles, about the Faith.

There, my friend, we certainly disagree.  It's not about love?  Then what, in heaven's name, did Christ suffer and die on the cross for?  So that He could stand on principle?  For the stance?  For the choice?  No.  He sacrificed Himself for LOVE.  And that's what He calls us to.  LOVE.  Standing on principle and choice is the Pharisaical way.  Try reading Matthew 23:1-36.


WHAT FAITH IS THERE WITHOUT LOVE? NONE.  1 Corinthians 13:13 says:
Quote
And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
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« Reply #17 on: October 13, 2008, 04:07:26 PM »


Forgiveness does not require repentance; in fact, it is a divine quality to give forgiveness without repentance (as Christ did upon the Cross).  

a) I don't have Divine qualities.

b) No forgiveness without repentance. The repentance is not required for rightous to be proved right, but to sinner/errer to see his sins/errors.

By forgiving without repentance, a forgiver participates in the committed sin post festum and is supporting and co-authoring future sins.

No compromise on that.

Guess someone should have filled Christ in on that before He suffered and died on the Cross for us.
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« Reply #18 on: October 13, 2008, 04:12:09 PM »

Could you suggest me a more proper fashion to respond to ozGeorge's provocation?

I find that doing nothing works for me, keeps me out of trouble.   angel
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« Reply #19 on: October 13, 2008, 04:15:07 PM »


b) is it not a contradiction that you believe that they have no grace and are not saved and yet think that they do not need to be evangelized to?

Huh?

I've stated exactly the opposite, I think twice on this discussion, while at least once on this very page.

I'll obey your wish not to engage in further debate with you.
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« Reply #20 on: October 13, 2008, 04:17:14 PM »

...
I find that doing nothing works for me, keeps me out of trouble.   angel

Cheesy

Beside the different temper you and me have, I did want to show the attitude on this subject to him.
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« Reply #21 on: October 13, 2008, 04:24:36 PM »


b) is it not a contradiction that you believe that they have no grace and are not saved and yet think that they do not need to be evangelized to?

Huh?

I've stated exactly the opposite, I think twice on this discussion, while at least once on this very page.

I'll obey your wish not to engage in further debate with you.

I guess this is the "if you're not going to play my way, I'll take my ball and go home" part of the discussion, huh?

I have asked SEVERAL times to engage in discussion in a LOVING Christian manner, absent of harsh tones.  I said I will not repeat myself again.  I DID NOT say I do not wish to engage in further debate.  Why is everything so black and white?  Or is it just that when someone says something you can't argue with (such as the rest of my last post), you don't want to talk anymore.  This makes me sad.

You have said that the RCs do not need to be evangelized to.  Yet you believe that in their current state, they have no grace, are not saved, are not part of the Church, etc. (I'm not disagreeing with that part).  Doesn't that state necessitate evangelizing so that they can come into the Holy Orthodox Church?  You said yourself that you would be okay with them renouncing their heresies and coming into the Church.  But how can they do that if we do not evangelize to them? This is a serious question, I'm not trying to provoke you with this.  Should you wish to discuss further, I think this is a good topic.  I'm not sure if we have different understandings of evangelizing, or if the method of evangelizing that was discussed previously (being ecumenism) is disagreeable to you, or where the problem lies.  I would like to understand this if you feel the need to discuss further.  Should you like to discuss further, I will ask only that we dispense with the harsh tones and discuss in a loving manner.  I hold no ill feelings toward you, my brother.  
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« Reply #22 on: October 13, 2008, 04:28:21 PM »

Beside the different temper you and me have, I did want to show the attitude on this subject to him.

We may have the SAME temper, except that my temper got me nowhere besides a downward spiral and I had to re-learn how to deal with life without temper.  I can still get animated but not emotional - big difference.

The Roman Catholic Church doesn't give me any reason to be angry; I'm sorry that you're still affected by what the Roman Catholics have done and I know that in all of Scripture/Holy Fathers/Holy Tradition, vengenance is not something Orthodox Christians practice for as St. Paul said that we are to walk as Children of Light (Ephesians 5:8 ).  Would a Child of Light pick a fight with a Presbytera, especially one who means very, very, very well, whether or not you agreed with her?   Huh
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« Reply #23 on: October 13, 2008, 04:34:46 PM »

I thought we orthodox don't put to much emphases on the Crucifixion of the lord but on the whole scenario.but mostly the resurrection that completes everything for our resurrection unto life or resurrection unto condemnation.....not like the catholics and protestant do,, they preach it non stop and thats it.plus  some mentally ill catholic's pray to have and to suffer the same wounds as christ....i never heard any orthodox say christ has died for you...i have heard them say christ has reserrected for us and brought us from death unto eternal life.....maybe i wasn't paying attention or something....SmileyCentral.com" border="0
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« Reply #24 on: October 13, 2008, 04:36:58 PM »

I thought we orthodox don't put to much emphases on the Crucifixion of the lord but on the whole scenario.but mostly the resurrection that completes everything for our resurrection unto life or resurrection unto condemnation.....not like the catholics and protestant do,, they preach it non stop and thats it.plus  some mentally ill catholic pray to suffer the same wounds as christ....i never heard any orthodox say christ has died for you...i have heard them say christ has reserrected for us and brought us from death unto eternal life.....maybe i wasn't paying attention or something....SmileyCentral.com" border="0
Wow, this seems a bit harsh considering that Christ says that we must pick up our cross and follow him, and the scriptures state that we die with Christ, and St. Paul himself states that he bears the wounds of Christ in his body.
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« Reply #25 on: October 13, 2008, 04:42:34 PM »


I've stated exactly the opposite, I think twice on this discussion, while at least once on this very page.

I'll obey your wish not to engage in further debate with you.

Yet you believe that in their current state, they have no grace, are not saved, ...

Read the enlarged and underlined part.
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« Reply #26 on: October 13, 2008, 04:44:20 PM »

I thought we orthodox don't put to much emphases on the Crucifixion of the lord but on the whole scenario.but mostly the resurrection that completes everything for our resurrection unto life or resurrection unto condemnation...

Me too.
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« Reply #27 on: October 13, 2008, 04:45:38 PM »

I thought we orthodox don't put to much emphases on the Crucifixion of the lord but on the whole scenario.but mostly the resurrection that completes everything for our resurrection unto life or resurrection unto condemnation.....not like the catholics and protestant do,, they preach it non stop and thats it.plus  some mentally ill catholic's pray to have and to suffer the same wounds as christ....i never heard any orthodox say christ has died for you...i have heard them say christ has reserrected for us and brought us from death unto eternal life.....maybe i wasn't paying attention or something....SmileyCentral.com" border="0

Give me a break.  I was making a point.  Yes, of course the Resurrection was part of the whole scenario.  And stop making judgements about me, and comparing me to other people and to Catholics.  It's getting old.  I don't judge you and make assumptions about you.  I expect the same courtesy.
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« Reply #28 on: October 13, 2008, 04:46:08 PM »


I've stated exactly the opposite, I think twice on this discussion, while at least once on this very page.

I'll obey your wish not to engage in further debate with you.

Yet you believe that in their current state, they have no grace, are not saved, ...

Read the enlarged and underlined part.

So much for loving Christian diologue.  I don't know why I bother.
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« Reply #29 on: October 13, 2008, 04:46:18 PM »

...especially one who means very, very, very well, whether or not you agreed with her?   Huh

You now where the road paved with good intentions can lead?
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« Reply #30 on: October 13, 2008, 04:48:29 PM »

...especially one who means very, very, very well, whether or not you agreed with her?   Huh

You now where the road paved with good intentions can lead?

THIS IS TOTALLY UNCALLED FOR.  YOU WANT TO DAMN ME TO HELL?  YOU TAKE IT UP WITH MY SPIRITUAL FATHER.  HIS NAME IS FATHER GRIGORIOS AND YOU CAN FIND HIM AT THE METROPOLIS OF ATLANTA.  IF YOU NEED THE PHONE NUMBER, I'LL BE HAPPY TO PM IT TO YOU.

THAT IS THE NASTIEST, MOST UNCHRISTIAN THING I HAVE EVER READ ON THIS FORUM.
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« Reply #31 on: October 13, 2008, 04:48:45 PM »



So much for loving Christian diologue.  I don't know why I bother.

Well, don't.

You neither read what I write, nor understand my complain.

Just realize not all Orthodox fit your criteria and stop commanding us "musts" and we'll all be fine.
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« Reply #32 on: October 13, 2008, 04:50:22 PM »

a) I don't have Divine qualities.

By virtue of your being created in God's image and likeness, you do; now, if you chose not to exercise them, then that's your prerogative. But it is you choice, not your nature, to not exhibit Divine Qualities.

b) No forgiveness without repentance. The repentance is not required for rightous to be proved right, but to sinner/errer to see his sins/errors.

By forgiving without repentance, a forgiver participates in the committed sin post festum and is supporting and co-authoring future sins.

No compromise on that.

No compromise?  You've just spouted heresy, my friend.  I say this not as a mark of shame, but rather for you to re-think your position a bit.  Saying that the forgiver becomes a co-author of future sin by forgiving without repentance places Christ as the co-author of sin, which He is not.
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« Reply #33 on: October 13, 2008, 04:51:12 PM »

..
THIS IS TOTALLY UNCALLED FOR.  YOU WANT TO DAMN ME TO HELL? 

Cool off a bit. How could you make such a conclusion that I want to damn you to hell?
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« Reply #34 on: October 13, 2008, 04:54:05 PM »

...

No compromise?  You've just spouted heresy, my friend.  I say this not as a mark of shame, but rather for you to re-think your position a bit.  Saying that the forgiver becomes a co-author of future sin by forgiving without repentance places Christ as the co-author of sin, which He is not.

I'd kindly ask you to support your statement by a quotation of a Father, or by a decision of a council. Or at least by a cathehezis.
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« Reply #35 on: October 13, 2008, 04:59:57 PM »

I thought we orthodox don't put to much emphases on the Crucifixion of the lord but on the whole scenario.but mostly the resurrection that completes everything for our resurrection unto life or resurrection unto condemnation.....not like the catholics and protestant do,, they preach it non stop and thats it.plus  some mentally ill catholic's pray to have and to suffer the same wounds as christ....i never heard any orthodox say christ has died for you...i have heard them say christ has reserrected for us and brought us from death unto eternal life.....maybe i wasn't paying attention or something....SmileyCentral.com" border="0

Give me a break.  I was making a point.  Yes, of course the Resurrection was part of the whole scenario.  And stop making judgements about me, and comparing me to other people and to Catholics.  It's getting old.  I don't judge you and make assumptions about you.  I expect the same courtesy.

I really honestly didn't address this to you .if i wanted to address this to you . i would of put you in the quote box...but i didn't...but i wrote for anybody to answer my question..i really apologies to you if i offended you in anyway,not meaning to sorry...SmileyCentral.com" border="0
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« Reply #36 on: October 13, 2008, 05:00:45 PM »

I'd kindly ask you to support your statement by a quotation of a Father, or by a decision of a council. Or at least by a cathehezis.
Um...how about the Gospel?
"Fatrher forgive them, they know not what they do".
So, you are accusing not only Christ, but His Father of sin when you say:
By forgiving without repentance, a forgiver participates in the committed sin post festum and is supporting and co-authoring future sins.

No compromise on that.
Don't you think it's strange that you need to use a Latin phrase to support your heresy?
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« Reply #37 on: October 13, 2008, 05:01:58 PM »

I thought we orthodox don't put to much emphases on the Crucifixion of the lord but on the whole scenario.but mostly the resurrection that completes everything for our resurrection unto life or resurrection unto condemnation.....not like the catholics and protestant do,, they preach it non stop and thats it.plus  some mentally ill catholic's pray to have and to suffer the same wounds as christ....i never heard any orthodox say christ has died for you...i have heard them say christ has reserrected for us and brought us from death unto eternal life.....maybe i wasn't paying attention or something....SmileyCentral.com" border="0

Give me a break.  I was making a point.  Yes, of course the Resurrection was part of the whole scenario.  And stop making judgements about me, and comparing me to other people and to Catholics.  It's getting old.  I don't judge you and make assumptions about you.  I expect the same courtesy.

I really honestly didn't address this to you .if i wanted to address this to you . i would of put you in the quote box...but i didn't...but i wrote for anybody to answer my question..i really apologies to if i ofended you in anyway,not meaning to sorry...SmileyCentral.com" border="0

My apologies if I misunderstood you.  This thread has gotten a little more heated than I am used to...  Please forgive...
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« Reply #38 on: October 13, 2008, 05:12:13 PM »

...
So, you are accusing not only Christ, but His Father of sin when you say:
...

Again, I'm asking something more from your free interpretation. Because, see, you, and particularly you, are not my criterion of Orthodoxy, believe it or not.

Quote
Don't you think it's strange that you need to use a Latin phrase to support your heresy?

No, I don't, because the only remainng word I know without a dictionary would be "veronauka", and Cleveland wouldn't understand it. Are you going to bring something else against me? Why would you need it if my "unorthodoxy" would be apparent to many? Or is it for the sake of your own uncertainty?
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« Reply #39 on: October 13, 2008, 05:16:13 PM »

...
So, you are accusing not only Christ, but His Father of sin when you say:
...

Again, I'm asking something more from your free interpretation.
Exactly how many ways can Christ's words "Father forgive them they know not what they do" be interpreted?

Because, see, you, and particularly you, are not my criterion of Orthodoxy, believe it or not.
That's because you are a heretic.
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« Reply #40 on: October 13, 2008, 05:17:44 PM »

I was reading somewhere (maybe this board) or maybe it was one of those rare visits to Mo' Nachos, that someone thought that the biggest hurdle with re-uniting with Rome wouldn't be theological, but practical.  He thought it would be liturgical discipline...and the lack thereof from the Roman side.

From hearing about all those "Clown masses" and other abominations, this speculation sounds plausible to me.

I really think we need to keep in mind that abuses on the level of "clown masses" really are extremely rare.

The fact that bthey happen at all is cause for concern. Angry
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« Reply #41 on: October 13, 2008, 05:22:39 PM »


That's because you are a heretic.

When I hear it from Orthodox, I'd be worried.

When Cleveland, or someone else, bring quotation, I'll consider it.

When hearing from you... you know what effect does it make to me?
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« Reply #42 on: October 13, 2008, 05:26:43 PM »


That's because you are a heretic.

When I hear it from Orthodox, I'd be worried.

When Cleveland, or someone else, bring quotation, I'll consider it.

When hearing from you... you know what effect does it make to me?

And here comes the time for me to repeat "the heresy" again:

I don't give a d^%$#|! what a RC bishop needs fast or slow.

I don't give a d^%$#|! what a RC bishop needs fast or slow.

I don't give a d^%$#|! what a RC bishop needs fast or slow.
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« Reply #43 on: October 13, 2008, 05:27:36 PM »





My apologies if I misunderstood you.  This thread has gotten a little more heated than I am used to...  Please forgive...
[/quote]





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« Reply #44 on: October 13, 2008, 05:30:05 PM »


If I'm allowed to comment my brother's stance:

Let them stay "on the other side of the fence" (stay "them"), because they are not us. Unless, of course, they become "us", which each and every one of them, and all together, can easily do any day, as did, for instance, our beloved Fr. Ambrose.

But does becoming "us" mean they  must cease to be latin and western? Which seems to be what both you and stashko are getting at. As I said, it's just the impression that is coming across and may not be your actual opinion.
 


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« Reply #45 on: October 13, 2008, 05:44:52 PM »

I'd kindly ask you to support your statement by a quotation of a Father, or by a decision of a council. Or at least by a cathehezis.

OK, why not.  In order to dissect, and then correct heresy, one must begin with the statement(s) in question.

Your initial statement:
Or you mean forgiveness without repentance, so I become an assistant of what I see unacceptable and actually support what I oppose?

Your follow-up statement:
Forgiveness does not require repentance; in fact, it is a divine quality to give forgiveness without repentance (as Christ did upon the Cross).  

a) I don't have Divine qualities.

b) No forgiveness without repentance. The repentance is not required for rightous to be proved right, but to sinner/errer to see his sins/errors.

By forgiving without repentance, a forgiver participates in the committed sin post festum and is supporting and co-authoring future sins.

No compromise on that.

The statement in question which is accused of being heretical per se is the statement "By forgiving without repentance, a forgiver participates in the committed sin post festum and is supporting and co-authoring future sins."

Let us diagram the incorrect assumptions and conclusions within the statement:

1) Forgiveness without repentance leads the Forgiver to participate in the committed sin post festum,
and
2) Forgiveness without repentance leads the Forgiver to support and "co-author" future sins.

Now, on the general subject of Forgiveness, we have the following references:

"Peter came to Jesus and asked, 'Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?' Jesus answered, 'I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times (or seventy times seven).'" (Matthew 18:21-22)

"And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins." (Mark 11:25)

"Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you." (Ephesians 4:32)

This doesn't even include the Lord's prayer, which is found in two forms in the scripture, one which asks us to Forgive as we forgive, and another which asks us to Forgive as we forgave.

What about Matthew 6:14-15, which says that if we don't forgive our brethren, then we won't be forgiven?

Finally, on this subject, and the one which flies in the face of your statement, is "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do," (Luke 23:34) uttered by Christ upon the Cross.

What about Forgiveness?  What kind of repentance is required for forgiveness?  Christ tells us in Matthew 5:38-45 that nothing should be required for your love... If someone wrongs you, you should forgive them right away, and if they wrong you again, you should forgive them again.  

How about St. Isaac the Syrian's take:
"But I say, if the merciful one is not also beyond justice, he is not merciful. That is, not only from his own part will he be merciful to others, but also he will endure injustice gladly and voluntarily. He will not establish and seek full justice in his dealing with his companion but will be merciful to him; because when he overcomes justice with mercy he will weave for himself a crown, not of those who are just according to the Law, but of the perfect according to the New Covenant."
http://www.antiochian.org/node/18185

By making your statement, you have impugned responsibility for sin upon Christ our True God, the Only Sinless One.

Christ was, is, and will always be sinless.  (1 Peter 2:22, 1 John 3:5, John 8:46, Isaiah 53:9)

One cannot separate action for us and for Him - Christ, when He walked upon the Earth, lived a righteous life, healed the sick, and forgave those who crucified Him.  These actions He did while on Earth, after taking on flesh - how can you say that He is responsible for their sin?  How can you say that He supports their future sin?  How can you say that He is the co-author of their future sin?

You made a general statement for mankind: that forgiveness without repentance makes the forgiver culpable for the sin, and any future sin.  I have shown you that it is not correct in its most important application, and thus is completely false.

===========================================================================================

What do the sources say about giving forgiveness?

4. Forgiveness

Having looked at the malady of anger, judgment, and resentment, let's go on to look at the cure. What are we to do to be freed of this sickness?

Our Lord Jesus Christ tells us clearly: Love your enemies. Do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, and pray for those who spitefully use you. And to him who smites you on the one cheek, offer also the other (Luke 6:2729).

Rather than resenting those who wrong us, we are to love them, and we express this love by blessing them and praying for them. We do this because we are commanded to do so by Christ. He has commanded this for our own sake, for our own salvation, because He loves us; and we do it for His sake, because we love Him. Our fallen nature rebels against this: "What? Bless and pray for that person who wronged me?" But for Christ's sake, we go against our fallen nature, and force ourselves to pray. We ask God to bless and have mercy on the person who hurt us, we wish good things for him, we wish his salvation, just as our Lord wishes his salvation. In this way we begin to become like God Himself, Who, according to the words of Christ, is kind to the unthankful and the evil (Luke 6:35). In going against our fallen nature, we return to our original naturethe image of God in usand we grow in the likeness of God.

Abba Dorotheus, a Desert Father of the sixth century, says that we can be healed of the sickness of resentment "by prayer right from the heart for the one who has annoyed us. We can pray such words as, O God, help my brother, and me through his prayers.'" "In this," says Abba Dorotheus, "we are interceding for our brother, which is a sure sign of sympathy and love, and we are humiliating ourselves by asking help through our brother's prayers. [7]

When we continually force ourselves to bless and pray for others in this way, we will find that our Lord Jesus Christ will change, renew, and refresh our hearts. It may take some time and persistence, but gradually, almost imperceptibly, we will be changed. The poison of resentment, by the Grace of Christ, will leave our system.

Again our Lord has told us: Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you shall be forgiven (Luke 6:37).

The cure for anger, judgment, and resentment is forgiveness, pure and simple. No matter what terrible afflictions and unspeakable injustices have befallen us, we can be free of their negative effects on us through forgiveness.

I once asked a Romanian Orthodox priest named Fr. George Calciu about this. For twenty-one years he had been locked in Communist prisons, where he had endured the most unimaginable horrors ever perpetrated by human beings. And yet when I met him here in America, he was happy, joyful, like a child, totally free of any negative effects of this torture on his soul. He had found the secret of forgiveness. I asked him, "How can people overcome judgment?" He looked at me, almost with astonishment, and answered, "It's simple. Just don't judge!"

It's truly simple. But we must keep in mind that we can't do it on our own: We need God's help to heal our fallen, wounded nature, to humble our pride. Therefore, as we pray for those who have hurt us, we should pray that God will help us to forgive, that He will soften our hard hearts, warm our cold hearts, and grant us a loving, merciful, and forgiving spirit.

Elder Sampson (Seivers) of Russia, who reposed in 1979, was a man well-equipped to speak on the subject of forgiveness. As a young novice monk, he was arrested by the Communist authorities, shot in a mass execution, and thrown into a common grave. By Divine Providence he survived the shooting, and was pulled out of the grave still breathing by his brother monks and nursed back to health. Later he was arrested again and spent nearly twenty years in Communist concentration camps. But he never held onto bitterness and resentment: He completely forgave both his executioners and his torturers. In his later years, when he was serving as a spiritual father to many people, he was especially tough when his spiritual children refused to forgive someone, even for some petty annoyance. He said: "I've always concluded: this means that they still have not gotten the point, that the whole secret, that all the salt of Christianity lies in this: to forgive, to excuse, to justify, not to know, not to remember evil.

"The Holy Fathers are the children of the Grace of the Holy Spirit. The result of this action of Grace is when the heart excuses. It loves, it can speak well of someone and pray for him. It does not remember offense or evil.

"Therefore," said Elder Sampson, "it is impossible to forgive and not excuse. This is a psychological fact. The heart is made this way. It was not the brain, not the nervous systemas science attempts to teach, and the psychiatrists especiallybut it was the heart that was made this way by God. It is called a Christian heart. It excuses, it does everything possible in order to justify and excuse. Isn't that so?! That is a Christian quality!

"The pagan or the Moslem does not know about this ... the action of the Grace of the Holy Spirit.... Try telling a Moslem to justify and excuse, to love his enemy. He will kill you. [8]

Once Elder Sampson was asked, "What can an angry person do?" He replied, "He must pray and pray for healing. For the sake of his faith, for the sake of his insistence, the Lord will change his heart." [9]

[7] St. Dorotheus of Gaza, Discourses and Sayings (Kalamazoo, Mich.: Cistercian Publications, 1977), p. 154
[8] Elder Sampson (Seivers), "Discussions and Teachings of Elder Sampson," The Orthodox Word no. 177 (1994), pp. 21415
[9] Ibid., p. 224.

There are numerous Patristic quotes on this page: http://www.orthodox.net/gleanings/forgiveness.html.

===========================================================================================

So what's the conclusion: that forgiveness should come readily from our mouths, not only for the salvation of those we forgive, but also for our own salvation.  This forgiveness does not mean that one must be accepted into Communion; it does not mean forgetting the errors of the past; it does not mean Spiritual apathy.  In the case in point - forgiveness of the RC church for its errors does not mean that we would be in Communion with them, or even accept communion with them; forgiveness has nothing to do with doctrine, Theology, Ecclesiology, or any other sort of discipline.  Forgiveness is an exercise of the Soul and Heart and Mind, one which opens the door to the kingdom for those who wield it freely and skillfully.

What do I ask?  That you freely forgive anyone who you feel has wronged you, hated you, persecuted your people and your family; pray that they may join you in heaven.  Don't allow the wrongs to continue or persist, and do not enter into agreement until people come to the Truth.  But don't hold that grudge; for that grudge may do you more harm at Christ's Judgment Seat than it will do them.
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« Reply #46 on: October 13, 2008, 05:45:00 PM »


What's your hurry?

You seem to be focused on the Vatican State. I'm hinting at the grassroots: The Roman Catholic Church as the largest Christian body in the world, has cultural, social, and theological significance in Christendom at large. For the benefit of all souls involved, it is a good thing that our leaders are in dialogue with them.

I suppose we should dialogue with all heterodox up to a point.  Seeing as how the Latter Days Saints - Mormons - are the largest 'christian' sect in my region of the world, perhaps our bishops should also be playing footsie... excuse me - entering dialogue -  with the Mormon Elders in Salt Lake City. To my knowledge this is not happening... perhaps you could speak with Met. Philip about this missed opportunity.

Before you say apples & oranges - Catholics & Mormons... let me point out that heretical Christians are just that - heretical - no matter the quantity or flavor.  Now that I reflect upon it, most of the Mormons I know have a higher standard of morals than most Catholics I know... so perhaps afterall it is apples & oranges.

In any event, I have to agree with SolEX01 - what's the hurry?  If the Archbishop of Rome is truly in such a rush, there is nothing stopping him from renouncing the Roman innovations and outright heresy of the last millennium and leading his flock back to the Church. The ball has always been in Rome's court.
.

I fully agree, although a little late into the discussion.
Wow, Heracleides..I think I'm in love with you! Wink

Having grown up in the RCC, I've learned they have a lot of legalistic theology, but not a lot of mysticism. Personally, I don't know why they have to explain the Eucharist with the transubstantiaion doctrine. Huh
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« Reply #47 on: October 13, 2008, 06:12:34 PM »

I'd kindly ask you to support your statement by a quotation of a Father, or by a decision of a council. Or at least by a cathehezis.

OK, why not.  In order to dissect, and then correct heresy, one must begin with the statement(s) in question.

Your initial statement:
Or you mean forgiveness without repentance, so I become an assistant of what I see unacceptable and actually support what I oppose?

Your follow-up statement:
Forgiveness does not require repentance; in fact, it is a divine quality to give forgiveness without repentance (as Christ did upon the Cross).  

a) I don't have Divine qualities.

b) No forgiveness without repentance. The repentance is not required for rightous to be proved right, but to sinner/errer to see his sins/errors.

By forgiving without repentance, a forgiver participates in the committed sin post festum and is supporting and co-authoring future sins.

No compromise on that.

The statement in question which is accused of being heretical per se is the statement "By forgiving without repentance, a forgiver participates in the committed sin post festum and is supporting and co-authoring future sins."

Let us diagram the incorrect assumptions and conclusions within the statement:

1) Forgiveness without repentance leads the Forgiver to participate in the committed sin post festum,
and
2) Forgiveness without repentance leads the Forgiver to support and "co-author" future sins.

Now, on the general subject of Forgiveness, we have the following references:

"Peter came to Jesus and asked, 'Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?' Jesus answered, 'I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times (or seventy times seven).'" (Matthew 18:21-22)

"And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins." (Mark 11:25)

"Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you." (Ephesians 4:32)

This doesn't even include the Lord's prayer, which is found in two forms in the scripture, one which asks us to Forgive as we forgive, and another which asks us to Forgive as we forgave.

What about Matthew 6:14-15, which says that if we don't forgive our brethren, then we won't be forgiven?

Finally, on this subject, and the one which flies in the face of your statement, is "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do," (Luke 23:34) uttered by Christ upon the Cross.

What about Forgiveness?  What kind of repentance is required for forgiveness?  Christ tells us in Matthew 5:38-45 that nothing should be required for your love... If someone wrongs you, you should forgive them right away, and if they wrong you again, you should forgive them again.  

How about St. Isaac the Syrian's take:
"But I say, if the merciful one is not also beyond justice, he is not merciful. That is, not only from his own part will he be merciful to others, but also he will endure injustice gladly and voluntarily. He will not establish and seek full justice in his dealing with his companion but will be merciful to him; because when he overcomes justice with mercy he will weave for himself a crown, not of those who are just according to the Law, but of the perfect according to the New Covenant."
http://www.antiochian.org/node/18185

By making your statement, you have impugned responsibility for sin upon Christ our True God, the Only Sinless One.

Christ was, is, and will always be sinless.  (1 Peter 2:22, 1 John 3:5, John 8:46, Isaiah 53:9)

One cannot separate action for us and for Him - Christ, when He walked upon the Earth, lived a righteous life, healed the sick, and forgave those who crucified Him.  These actions He did while on Earth, after taking on flesh - how can you say that He is responsible for their sin?  How can you say that He supports their future sin?  How can you say that He is the co-author of their future sin?

You made a general statement for mankind: that forgiveness without repentance makes the forgiver culpable for the sin, and any future sin.  I have shown you that it is not correct in its most important application, and thus is completely false.

===========================================================================================

What do the sources say about giving forgiveness?

4. Forgiveness

Having looked at the malady of anger, judgment, and resentment, let's go on to look at the cure. What are we to do to be freed of this sickness?

Our Lord Jesus Christ tells us clearly: Love your enemies. Do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, and pray for those who spitefully use you. And to him who smites you on the one cheek, offer also the other (Luke 6:2729).

Rather than resenting those who wrong us, we are to love them, and we express this love by blessing them and praying for them. We do this because we are commanded to do so by Christ. He has commanded this for our own sake, for our own salvation, because He loves us; and we do it for His sake, because we love Him. Our fallen nature rebels against this: "What? Bless and pray for that person who wronged me?" But for Christ's sake, we go against our fallen nature, and force ourselves to pray. We ask God to bless and have mercy on the person who hurt us, we wish good things for him, we wish his salvation, just as our Lord wishes his salvation. In this way we begin to become like God Himself, Who, according to the words of Christ, is kind to the unthankful and the evil (Luke 6:35). In going against our fallen nature, we return to our original naturethe image of God in usand we grow in the likeness of God.

Abba Dorotheus, a Desert Father of the sixth century, says that we can be healed of the sickness of resentment "by prayer right from the heart for the one who has annoyed us. We can pray such words as, O God, help my brother, and me through his prayers.'" "In this," says Abba Dorotheus, "we are interceding for our brother, which is a sure sign of sympathy and love, and we are humiliating ourselves by asking help through our brother's prayers. [7]

When we continually force ourselves to bless and pray for others in this way, we will find that our Lord Jesus Christ will change, renew, and refresh our hearts. It may take some time and persistence, but gradually, almost imperceptibly, we will be changed. The poison of resentment, by the Grace of Christ, will leave our system.

Again our Lord has told us: Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you shall be forgiven (Luke 6:37).

The cure for anger, judgment, and resentment is forgiveness, pure and simple. No matter what terrible afflictions and unspeakable injustices have befallen us, we can be free of their negative effects on us through forgiveness.

I once asked a Romanian Orthodox priest named Fr. George Calciu about this. For twenty-one years he had been locked in Communist prisons, where he had endured the most unimaginable horrors ever perpetrated by human beings. And yet when I met him here in America, he was happy, joyful, like a child, totally free of any negative effects of this torture on his soul. He had found the secret of forgiveness. I asked him, "How can people overcome judgment?" He looked at me, almost with astonishment, and answered, "It's simple. Just don't judge!"

It's truly simple. But we must keep in mind that we can't do it on our own: We need God's help to heal our fallen, wounded nature, to humble our pride. Therefore, as we pray for those who have hurt us, we should pray that God will help us to forgive, that He will soften our hard hearts, warm our cold hearts, and grant us a loving, merciful, and forgiving spirit.

Elder Sampson (Seivers) of Russia, who reposed in 1979, was a man well-equipped to speak on the subject of forgiveness. As a young novice monk, he was arrested by the Communist authorities, shot in a mass execution, and thrown into a common grave. By Divine Providence he survived the shooting, and was pulled out of the grave still breathing by his brother monks and nursed back to health. Later he was arrested again and spent nearly twenty years in Communist concentration camps. But he never held onto bitterness and resentment: He completely forgave both his executioners and his torturers. In his later years, when he was serving as a spiritual father to many people, he was especially tough when his spiritual children refused to forgive someone, even for some petty annoyance. He said: "I've always concluded: this means that they still have not gotten the point, that the whole secret, that all the salt of Christianity lies in this: to forgive, to excuse, to justify, not to know, not to remember evil.

"The Holy Fathers are the children of the Grace of the Holy Spirit. The result of this action of Grace is when the heart excuses. It loves, it can speak well of someone and pray for him. It does not remember offense or evil.

"Therefore," said Elder Sampson, "it is impossible to forgive and not excuse. This is a psychological fact. The heart is made this way. It was not the brain, not the nervous systemas science attempts to teach, and the psychiatrists especiallybut it was the heart that was made this way by God. It is called a Christian heart. It excuses, it does everything possible in order to justify and excuse. Isn't that so?! That is a Christian quality!

"The pagan or the Moslem does not know about this ... the action of the Grace of the Holy Spirit.... Try telling a Moslem to justify and excuse, to love his enemy. He will kill you. [8]

Once Elder Sampson was asked, "What can an angry person do?" He replied, "He must pray and pray for healing. For the sake of his faith, for the sake of his insistence, the Lord will change his heart." [9]

[7] St. Dorotheus of Gaza, Discourses and Sayings (Kalamazoo, Mich.: Cistercian Publications, 1977), p. 154
[8] Elder Sampson (Seivers), "Discussions and Teachings of Elder Sampson," The Orthodox Word no. 177 (1994), pp. 21415
[9] Ibid., p. 224.

There are numerous Patristic quotes on this page: http://www.orthodox.net/gleanings/forgiveness.html.

===========================================================================================

So what's the conclusion: that forgiveness should come readily from our mouths, not only for the salvation of those we forgive, but also for our own salvation.  This forgiveness does not mean that one must be accepted into Communion; it does not mean forgetting the errors of the past; it does not mean Spiritual apathy.  In the case in point - forgiveness of the RC church for its errors does not mean that we would be in Communion with them, or even accept communion with them; forgiveness has nothing to do with doctrine, Theology, Ecclesiology, or any other sort of discipline.  Forgiveness is an exercise of the Soul and Heart and Mind, one which opens the door to the kingdom for those who wield it freely and skillfully.

What do I ask?  That you freely forgive anyone who you feel has wronged you, hated you, persecuted your people and your family; pray that they may join you in heaven.  Don't allow the wrongs to continue or persist, and do not enter into agreement until people come to the Truth.  But don't hold that grudge; for that grudge may do you more harm at Christ's Judgment Seat than it will do them.

I nominate this as the Post of the Month.....I must say, I was about to start looking into some of my books for info. and you beat me right to it!  Angry arrgggghhh  Tongue

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« Reply #48 on: October 13, 2008, 06:18:39 PM »

^^ I would make the post a sticky as a easily accessible reference.   Wink
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« Reply #49 on: October 13, 2008, 06:21:56 PM »

I nominate this as the Post of the Month.....I must say, I was about to start looking into some of my books for info. and you beat me right to it!  Angry arrgggghhh  Tongue

Please add to it.  If it is for someone's salvation, then the effort is always appreciated.
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« Reply #50 on: October 13, 2008, 06:40:45 PM »

I nominate this as the Post of the Month.....I must say, I was about to start looking into some of my books for info. and you beat me right to it!  Angry arrgggghhh  Tongue

Please add to it.  If it is for someone's salvation, then the effort is always appreciated.

well....let's see how the Lurker responds to your post...honestly I dont know how much I can add to it....since I like to focus on the first 8 centuries of the church, perhaps I can add some "old school" flavour to what you just mentioned...that is only if Mr. Lurker wants more....so, we'll see.
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« Reply #51 on: October 13, 2008, 06:42:12 PM »

I nominate this as the Post of the Month.....I must say, I was about to start looking into some of my books for info. and you beat me right to it!  Angry arrgggghhh  Tongue
I already nominated it. Would you like to second it?
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« Reply #52 on: October 13, 2008, 07:29:36 PM »

You made a general statement for mankind: that forgiveness without repentance makes the forgiver culpable for the sin, and any future sin.  I have shown you that it is not correct in its most important application, and thus is completely false.

I did have a reading of your arguments, but my initial conclusion is that you:

a) produced twisted interpretation of my statement (what you call "dissecting it")

b) exposed grave errors concerning the attitude towards sin

Quote
"Peter came to Jesus and asked, 'Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?' Jesus answered, 'I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times (or seventy times seven).'" (Matthew 18:21-22)
...

All the quotations you brought emphasize the attitude towards sinner, and not towards sin. You stayed short only of asking "Am I my brothers' keeper?"

Among your false analogies, this one:

Quote
By making your statement, you have impugned responsibility for sin upon Christ our True God, the Only Sinless One.

is the most incredible one; you could easily reason I blame the Creator for He made us sinful.

Bringing the Christ's example is false; he didn't forgive Pilat, he replied "You said" ; he didn't forgive Synedrion, he remained silent; because the sin has still not been committed. He asked Father to forgive them once the sin has been committed, once it was over, and wasn't possible to repeat it, ever again. He didn't do that in advance.

If your reasoning was true, we would still have been in Eden - because God would have forgiven Adam, Eve (and the Snake).

If you weren't so elaborate in your reasoning, I'd suggest you to start reading from here; but you have obviously already read it, so I'm puzzled what to say except that we obviously don't hold the same beliefs, and eventually may start call each other heretic.
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« Reply #53 on: October 13, 2008, 07:39:50 PM »

I see I particularly annoyed 64.6.241.33 and 68.178.197.45
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« Reply #54 on: October 13, 2008, 07:40:36 PM »

He asked Father to forgive them once the sin has been committed, once it was over, and wasn't possible to repeat it, ever again. He didn't do that in advance.
What has that got to do with anything? The point is that He forgave their sin without their repentance, which, according to you, makes Christ guilty of sin.
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« Reply #55 on: October 13, 2008, 07:43:37 PM »


If I'm allowed to comment my brother's stance:

Let them stay "on the other side of the fence" (stay "them"), because they are not us. Unless, of course, they become "us", which each and every one of them, and all together, can easily do any day, as did, for instance, our beloved Fr. Ambrose.

But does becoming "us" mean they  must cease to be latin and western? Which seems to be what both you and stashko are getting at. As I said, it's just the impression that is coming across and may not be your actual opinion.
 




Ill try to answer hopfully i get it correct...they don't have become eastern orthodox just have to be orthodox in there belief..no  innovation..to become like the western orthodox church before the the schism, when we were united one body no super pope no infalability on one person..only the church has that as whole.....i hope i got some of the answer's right im sure theres more....SmileyCentral.com" border="0
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« Reply #56 on: October 13, 2008, 07:50:54 PM »




No It does not put him above Jesus. I am not sure I understand why you would think this. We believe that Jesus intended all Christians to be under the Pope and that the EO Church is missing this. We believe that what is missing is communion with Christ's Church.




So, what is the consequence of not being in communion with Christ's Church? Does it affect their salvation in some way?

I am asking this to really, fully understand the Catholic viewpoint on this subject.

Edited to fix quote box.
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« Reply #57 on: October 13, 2008, 07:54:48 PM »

Here are three links to St. John's Chrysostom chapters particularly on repentance
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf109.v.iii.html#v.iii-Page_94
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf109.v.iii.html#v.iii-Page_103
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf109.v.iii.html#v.iii-Page_108

While you'll have to wait for further links until tomorow.
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« Reply #58 on: October 13, 2008, 08:01:25 PM »

He asked Father to forgive them once the sin has been committed, once it was over, and wasn't possible to repeat it, ever again. He didn't do that in advance.
What has that got to do with anything? The point is that He forgave their sin without their repentance, which, according to you, makes Christ guilty of sin.

I already wrote He didn't forgive - He asked Father to forgive them. And gave the reason - for they knew not what they were doing - they knew not their sin. For being guilty of their sin, they would have to know it and don't have the intention to repent it.

BTW, why are you using an English word "Gospel" in theologicy?
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« Reply #59 on: October 13, 2008, 08:02:26 PM »

^In other words:
La, la, la, la, la.....
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« Reply #60 on: October 13, 2008, 08:06:31 PM »

I already wrote He didn't forgive - He asked Father to forgive them.
Oh! So Christ was asking God the Father to commit the sin of forgiving a sin without repentance?

And gave the reason - for they knew not what they were doing - they knew not their sin. For being guilty of their sin, they would have to know it and don't have the intention to repent it.
So then there was nothing which needed to be forgiven? Oh what tangled webs we weave.......

BTW, why are you using an English word "Gospel" in theologicy?
Because that is the language we are conversing in. What language does "theologicy" come from?
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« Reply #61 on: October 13, 2008, 08:40:34 PM »

a) produced twisted interpretation of my statement (what you call "dissecting it")

Prove it.  All I did was quote you.  If I'm mistaken, then I'll admit to it; but your statement was pretty clear, and clearly wrong.

b) exposed grave errors concerning the attitude towards sin

Oh?  Enlighten me!

All the quotations you brought emphasize the attitude towards sinner, and not towards sin. You stayed short only of asking "Am I my brothers' keeper?"

The point is the focus on the sinner - the action stands before God's mercy seat.  The entire interaction between you and I, you and Pres. Mari, and you and Ozgeorge has been about the attitude towards the person, not the sin... maybe that's why you're not getting it.

you could easily reason I blame the Creator for He made us sinful.

Do you blame Him?

Bringing the Christ's example is false; he didn't forgive Pilat, he replied "You said" ; he didn't forgive Synedrion, he remained silent; because the sin has still not been committed. He asked Father to forgive them once the sin has been committed, once it was over, and wasn't possible to repeat it, ever again. He didn't do that in advance.

Really?  The whole argument is about forgiveness without repentance.  The Son, a member of the Holy Trinity, requested of the Father that Forgiveness be given.  Not only does this mean that He granted forgiveness, but it means that One Member of the Holy Trinity was making the request to another... The principle still stands - they committed a sin (in this case, murdering an innocent Man, even if they didn't know that He Is the Son of God), and He granted and asked for forgiveness without their repentance.  It's called Divine Love, and we all hope for it.

If your reasoning was true, we would still have been in Eden - because God would have forgiven Adam, Eve (and the Snake).

No - if my reasoning is true, that only leaves open the possibility of returning to Eden.  The fall from Eden was a consequence of sin, preordained and decreed as such.  God could have changed the order of things, yes, but that would be an action in addition to forgiveness.  You could stab me in the chest, and I could forgive you, but the wound would still bleed after forgiveness.

If you weren't so elaborate in your reasoning, I'd suggest you to start reading

Why would I take any "reading suggestions," when you haven't addressed what I've said yet?  Yes, I've read much of what St. John has written, but I have a feeling that you and I have spoken past each other so far, so I don't think you're using the quote in direct reference to my statement.
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« Reply #62 on: October 13, 2008, 09:32:57 PM »

I nominate this as the Post of the Month.....I must say, I was about to start looking into some of my books for info. and you beat me right to it!  Angry arrgggghhh  Tongue
I already nominated it. Would you like to second it?

How do I second it?.....sure this is the newbie in me asking the question.....
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« Reply #63 on: October 13, 2008, 10:32:29 PM »


If I'm allowed to comment my brother's stance:

Let them stay "on the other side of the fence" (stay "them"), because they are not us. Unless, of course, they become "us", which each and every one of them, and all together, can easily do any day, as did, for instance, our beloved Fr. Ambrose.

But does becoming "us" mean they  must cease to be latin and western? Which seems to be what both you and stashko are getting at. As I said, it's just the impression that is coming across and may not be your actual opinion.
 



I have always wondered this. Most EO Christians that I have spoken to have said that latins would not have to cease being latin. I'm curious as to how latin we would be aloud to remain.
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« Reply #64 on: October 13, 2008, 11:11:54 PM »

How do I second it?.....sure this is the newbie in me asking the question.....
You just did!
"Just say and it shall be so!"
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« Reply #65 on: October 14, 2008, 04:43:40 AM »

No - if my reasoning is true, that only leaves open the possibility of returning to Eden.  The fall from Eden was a consequence of sin, preordained and decreed as such.  God could have changed the order of things, yes, but that would be an action in addition to forgiveness.

No. The expulsion was an action, too. And it was aimed specifically for granting them opportunity for repentance. He made them mortal for the sin in them not to remain immortal - check that in Romanides' "Ancestral sin", it isn't online.

If your theory is true, and repentance is not necessary, then:

1) God would have forgiven Adam and Even, and not cast them out, accepting the sin in them;

2) There would be no opposition between God and devil, for God would have forgiven him long ago;

3) There would be no need for Incarnation, Death and Resurrection, all that would have been needed would be God to forgive, which He could have done in the first place to Adam and Eve;

3.1) Following your pattern, I could easily accuse you of blaspheming His Incarnation, Death and Resurrection. It is horrible for me even to spell the consequences of such an attitude out consequently; He would have been a lousy, unloving God, undertaking silly ventures which were completely unnecessary - all he should have done was to forgive; the attribute of reason, which was gifted to us for we are created in the image of God would not be necessary, for there would be no good and evil to differ; Why has He come? To vanquish victory over sin? Why? He could have forgiven it!

4) Christ wouldn't have casted the traders out of the Temple - he would just have forgiven them; He wouldn't have said to Synedrion they were commiting the deeds of their father devil, He would just have forgiven them; There would be no sense in Judas commiting suicide - God would have forgiven him;

5) We wouldn't need Holy Spirit to stay with us until His Second Arrival - what would be the purpose of Him if forgivness that we hope for, is all that's required, regardless our actions? Simon the Sourcerer would be right;

6) Either Hell wouldn't exist at all, or God would have been an arbitrary and unforgiving torturer;

7) We wouldn't be baptized unto Christ's death; there would have to be some other, more relaxed ceremony related to forgivness; Church would allow communion to all, and there would be no confession, assuming repentance; there would be no epitimia, since it is so "unforgiving" (btw, do you still have it in your area?);

I could go on, but this is more than enough for my point. While the root of your stance, I think, lies here:

Quote
Really?  The whole argument is about forgiveness without repentance.  The Son, a member of the Holy Trinity, requested of the Father that Forgiveness be given.  ...
The principle still stands - they committed a sin (in this case, murdering an innocent Man, even if they didn't know that He Is the Son of God), and He granted and asked for forgiveness without their repentance.  It's called Divine Love, and we all hope for it.
and here:
a) I don't have Divine qualities.

By virtue of your being created in God's image and likeness, you do; now, if you chose not to exercise them, then that's your prerogative. But it is you choice, not your nature, to not exhibit Divine Qualities.

For such a stance assumes you have already gained Divine properties of your own and are entitled to grant Forgiveness (while Judging) not to sinner, but to sin. You are your own Judge and your own Forgiver. You already know the final sentece for those who crucified Christ. You have no other God(s) but Yourself.
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« Reply #66 on: October 14, 2008, 05:07:57 AM »


Oh?  Enlighten me!

Sorry, I can't enlgithen anyone - go search for Holy Spirit.

you could easily reason I blame the Creator for He made us sinful.

Do you blame Him?

If I followed your reasoning, I would have to.
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« Reply #67 on: October 14, 2008, 06:26:40 AM »

While the root of your stance, I think, lies here:

Quote
Really?  The whole argument is about forgiveness without repentance.  The Son, a member of the Holy Trinity, requested of the Father that Forgiveness be given.  ...
The principle still stands - they committed a sin (in this case, murdering an innocent Man, even if they didn't know that He Is the Son of God), and He granted and asked for forgiveness without their repentance.  It's called Divine Love, and we all hope for it.
and here:
a) I don't have Divine qualities.

By virtue of your being created in God's image and likeness, you do; now, if you chose not to exercise them, then that's your prerogative. But it is you choice, not your nature, to not exhibit Divine Qualities.

For such a stance assumes you have already gained Divine properties of your own and are entitled to grant Forgiveness (while Judging) not to sinner, but to sin. You are your own Judge and your own Forgiver. You already know the final sentece for those who crucified Christ. You have no other God(s) but Yourself.


And to put it more concise and comprehensive:

1) It was God-Man that asked forgivness for them from God-Father; not a man only;

2) It was just before His death - we follow that example by the last confession and communion, assuming our forgiveness, for not to depart from Earth unforgiving and unforgiven;

3) Those who were asked for to be fogiven didn't know the scope of their sin; they couldn't have; for we have the reason only for making difference between good and evil; their reason was insufficient for the proportions of the sin they committed;

3.1) because they didn't kill an innocent man only, they crucified God who came for reminissence of their sins, too; who came to vanquish sin for them, too; who offered union to them, too; If they weren't asked for to be forgiven, He wouldn't have come for all people, but only for some;

3.2) the specific sin they committed couldn't have been repeated when He asked for them to be forgiven;

4) We (at least those of us who hasn't gained Divine properties of our own) don't know their final Judgment yet; it will be known on the Judgment Day.

Quote
The entire interaction between you and I, you and Pres. Mari, and you and Ozgeorge has been about the attitude towards the person, not the sin... maybe that's why you're not getting it.

This, I admit, I don't get, because I haven't seen where have I expressed attitude towards person...well, except in case of ozGeorge, when I did doubled the tone compared to his; it was necessary to express my message that I will not bend my stance, no matter how shocking to someone it may sound, upon such childish accusations and arguments as he laid against me.
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« Reply #68 on: October 14, 2008, 06:31:08 AM »

.. I'm curious as to how latin we would be aloud to remain.

The key word here is allowed (I believe that was the meaning?).

Since Orthodoxy is Freedom, there is nothing to be allowed. Orthodox West would have to pick its own measure on its own, while Orthodox East could be available to be called for assistance, but not to allow or forbid anything.
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« Reply #69 on: October 14, 2008, 10:18:26 AM »


Oh?  Enlighten me!

Sorry, I can't enlgithen anyone - go search for Holy Spirit.
Seems like you've certainly been trying to enlighten us.  Does the fact that you can't enlighten anyone invalidate totally everything you just said?
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« Reply #70 on: October 14, 2008, 10:33:44 AM »

The idea that God's forgiveness is DEPENDANT upon our repentance is ludicrous and backward.  That any action of God would be dependant upon us is ludicrous.  How could God's action possibly be dependant on us?  That's exactly the point of our faith... that even when we have done something so terrible as to 1)murder an innocent Man 2) murder our Lord 3) not bother to repent for it, God still, in His great LOVE and MERCY, has forgiven us. 

It makes me really sad to see such a heretical interpretation of Scripture spouted, that the Scriptures are being twisted around for the sake of "right fighting" (fighting for the sake of being right--- pride), and such hardness of heart being shown when the correct interpretation has been given several times.

May our MERCIFUL GOD WHO FORGIVES IN DIVINE LOVE, have mercy and forgive us all.
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« Reply #71 on: October 14, 2008, 11:00:46 AM »

Just saw this in another thread.  This is part of a statement issued yesterday by the primates of the various Orthodox Churches.  Glad to know that the Patriarchs/Bishops agree with me on this point. 

Quote
3. Inspired by the teaching and the work of the Apostle Paul, we underscore first and foremost, the importance of the duty of Mission for the life of the Church, and in particular for the ministry of us all, in accordance with the final commandment of the Lord: “you will be my witnesses not only in Jerusalem, but throughout Judaea and Samaria, and to the uttermost parts of the earth” (Acts 1:. The evangelization of God’s people, but also of those who do not believe in Christ, constitutes the supreme duty of the Church. This duty must not be fulfilled in an aggressive manner, or by various forms of proselytism, but with love, humility and respect for the identity of each individual and the cultural particularity of each people. All Orthodox Churches must contribute to this missionary effort, respecting the canonical order.
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,17874.msg259929/boardseen.html#new
http://interfaxreli.customers.ru/?act=documents&div=133

What was that it said?  Evangelization of God's people?  Hmmm... seems I remember saying that yesterday.
Oh, and what else does it say?  Love, humility, etc.  Gosh, I'd almost swear I said that yesterday, too.

Guess I wasn't as far off as some (orthodoxlurker) wanted to pretend I was.

Oh, and here's the list at the end of the Bishops present.  Feel free to take a thorough look.
Quote
+Bartholomew of Constantinople
+ Theodore of Alexandria
+ Ignatius of Antioch
+ Theophilos of Jerusalem
+ Alexey of Moscow
+ Amphilochios of Montenegro (representing the Church of Serbia)
+ Laurentiu of Transylvania (representing the Church of Romania)
+ Dometiyan of Vidin (representing the Church of Bulgaria)
+ Gerasime of Zugdidi (representing the Church of Georgia)
+ Chrysostomos of Cyprus
+ Ieronymos of Athens
+ Jeremiasz of Wrocław (representing of the Church of Poland)
+ Anastasios of Tirana
+ Christopher of the Czech Lands and Slovakia

Pray for me a sinner.

***Edited to add names of Bishops***
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« Reply #72 on: October 14, 2008, 12:06:37 PM »

Wow....this discussion is STILL going on !!

From reading orthodoxlurker, cleveland and Presbytera Mari's posts, let me just say this: ALL of you have valid points. God isn't a "black and/or white" deity that conforms to ONE particular set of orders and actions. By speculating on how God administers forgiveness and how repentance works, we sometimes find ourselves either taking a journey into or rather are stating that we somehow know the mind of God, both of them being endeavours no one to this day has been able to successfully complete. What is worse, by taking a particular position and saying "this is how God does things....", which again renders the other position as false or partially true, we are indirectly putting the One, Intellectually Unfathomable, Holy, Magnificent, Transcendent God into a proverbial theological and philosphical box wherein his actions are now fully understood and comrepehended and the "mystery" of God and his actions has been cracked, so to speak. In short, my humble advice to all (this includes me as well) is simply this: one must be VERY careful as to how one words his or her findings on how God operates in the world we live in....we must approach the table with humility, fear and trembling of the One whom we are speaking about.

Now, I have a truckload of University assignments that I need to do and I am already procrastinating on a few (considering that I am thinking of how to word my verbal beggings to my profs for more extensions).....I SOOO am itching to write a piece on St. John Chrysostom's views on repentance (since Orthodoxlurker posted much of his stuff above) and how it both, complements and conflicts with his views on the same subject. My purpose here is to not embarass Lurker, but rather to engage in a dialogue of sorts wherein we all here can atleast try or engage in a pursuit of understanding how God works in his world, without having to draw a line of any sort of absolutes about God in the sandy foundations of our faith...and how this journey of learning and discovery can be made practical in our dealings with our Catholic and Protestant brothers and sisters.....

I may post a word or two from time to time during my additional moments of procrastination during the week and beyond...but Ladies and Gentlemen, a few words from Scripture to ponder on, just so ALL OF US can regroup on our humility to and fear of God:

" For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
       neither are your ways my ways,"
       declares the LORD.

   "As the heavens are higher than the earth,
       so are my ways higher than your ways
       and my thoughts than your thoughts... (Isaiah 55:8-9)

In Christ,

+

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« Reply #73 on: October 14, 2008, 12:11:24 PM »


No. The expulsion was an action, too. And it was aimed specifically for granting them opportunity for repentance. He made them mortal for the sin in them not to remain immortal - check that in Romanides' "Ancestral sin", it isn't online.

If your theory is true, and repentance is not necessary, then:

1) God would have forgiven Adam and Even, and not cast them out, accepting the sin in them;

2) There would be no opposition between God and devil, for God would have forgiven him long ago;

3) There would be no need for Incarnation, Death and Resurrection, all that would have been needed would be God to forgive, which He could have done in the first place to Adam and Eve;


I'm not a theologian by any means, but ironically you seem to be taking a hyper-western stance on the purpose of the Incarnation, ie: juridical view of the Cross and Resurrection...we sinned, thus God had to die in our place. And yet did not Christ die for all? You almost seem to taking up a "limited atonement" view of Salvation which the last I checked, Orthodoxy soundly rejects.
 

If I take what you're saying at face value, (we don't have to forgive unless the person who wronged us repents first) then I don't have to forgive anyone who ever wrongs me.   (unless of course they come and beg me to forgive them first) I honestly have never heard any such thing in ANY Christian group in my entire life.

What your espousing is a big problem. Look at it this way, flip the tables....by what you're saying is  no one has to forgive anyone until they come crawling back and beg us to forgive them. That's simply not a healthy way to live, but a way to lord it over our fellow man.

How many people have had someone who wouldn't forgive you until you begged them to? Well I have. And in the end, the one who is doing the forgiving ends up with massive pride because it somehow "proves" they were right all along, not to mention they hold some sort of "power" over the person. (the forgiver has the power to forgive over the forgivee)

What everyone here is talking about is following Christ's example to forgive those even when they don't repent....ie: love your enemies, pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you. I don't see how THAT fits in with what you're saying at all.


According to your thesis, we can now look at history and say we don't have to forgive anyone who's ever wronged us until they repent. Well Rome has asked the East for forgiveness about the incendent in 1204, have you forgiven the West for said atrocity? Oh but wait, since the East has never apologized to the West for some of the things East did to them, does that mean they don't have to forgive us?

The Muslim's don't have to forgive the Christians when we've wronged them, (because we don't apologize) and we don't have to forgive them because they won't repent? (I'm trying to make this as generalized as I can, and not pick specific issues out of modern history for the sake of charity)

Wow! What a way to live. It seems we've been trying that nonsense for most of human civilization and it doesn't work. I thought Christ's message was "counter cultural", or counter intuitive . . . but according to you, forgiveness is something that one must earn, which puts the forgiver in the position of absolute power over the forgivee. I thought Jesus said, do not lord it over others, and also, "if you forgive those who forgive you what reward have you?"



Quote
3.1) Following your pattern, I could easily accuse you of blaspheming His Incarnation, Death and Resurrection. It is horrible for me even to spell the consequences of such an attitude out consequently; He would have been a lousy, unloving God, undertaking silly ventures which were completely unnecessary - all he should have done was to forgive; the attribute of reason, which was gifted to us for we are created in the image of God would not be necessary, for there would be no good and evil to differ; Why has He come? To vanquish victory over sin? Why? He could have forgiven it!

You're taking a VERY western (Protestant western at that) view of the Incarnation. And yes, technically God could have just waved a magic wand and set things right because God can do anything He wants. But the Incarnation is an act of love, of setting us back on the straight path, not merely a juridical act.

I've been wronged by a  lot of people, some of whom never repented and asked me to forgive them, and yet I struggle to pray for them, and continue to struggle to forgive them. It gets easier as time goes on, by God's grace. But according to you, I shouldn't forgive them because they have not repented? Well, I tried that it only hurt ME spiritually to have this pent up anger and resentment and unforgiveness inside of me. Forgiving our enemies is not easy, in fact it is down right HARD, but that is what Jesus taught. Sometimes Christ asks us to do the hard things, not the easy things...and not forgiving those who've wronged us is easy, until it eats away at our souls that is.

None of us are talking about the Holy Sacrament of Confession, which is God forgiving us, not us forgiving other people. You seem to be conflating 2 entirely different issues by bringing up confession. One is between us and God, the other is between us and our fellow man. As others brought up, the Good Samaritan story is a perfect example of what we're all taking about. 1st century Jews despised Samaritans....in modern times the story would probably be titled "the good Latin" or "the good Muslim" or "the good Albanian" or "the good Mexican" or "the good Macedonian" or "the Good OO" or the "Good Croatian" or "the good New/Old Calendarist" or any other number of groups of people that are often maligned by one group of people or another for various reasons. These people are to be forgiven because they are not our enemies, but our brothers and sisters in humanity...all people are a living icon of Christ, even non Christians. How many times do I forgive me brother? 70 times 7...or in other words, as many times as it takes.




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« Reply #74 on: October 14, 2008, 12:18:36 PM »


No. The expulsion was an action, too. And it was aimed specifically for granting them opportunity for repentance. He made them mortal for the sin in them not to remain immortal - check that in Romanides' "Ancestral sin", it isn't online.

If your theory is true, and repentance is not necessary, then:

1) God would have forgiven Adam and Even, and not cast them out, accepting the sin in them;

2) There would be no opposition between God and devil, for God would have forgiven him long ago;

3) There would be no need for Incarnation, Death and Resurrection, all that would have been needed would be God to forgive, which He could have done in the first place to Adam and Eve;


I'm not a theologian by any means, but ironically you seem to be taking a hyper-western stance on the purpose of the Incarnation, ie: juridical view of the Cross and Resurrection...we sinned, thus God had to die in our place. And yet did not Christ die for all? You almost seem to taking up a "limited atonement" view of Salvation which the last I checked, Orthodoxy soundly rejects.
 

If I take what you're saying at face value, (we don't have to forgive unless the person who wronged us repents first) then I don't have to forgive anyone who ever wrongs me.   (unless of course they come and beg me to forgive them first) I honestly have never heard any such thing in ANY Christian group in my entire life.

What your espousing is a big problem. Look at it this way, flip the tables....by what you're saying is  no one has to forgive anyone until they come crawling back and beg us to forgive them. That's simply not a healthy way to live, but a way to lord it over our fellow man.

How many people have had someone who wouldn't forgive you until you begged them to? Well I have. And in the end, the one who is doing the forgiving ends up with massive pride because it somehow "proves" they were right all along, not to mention they hold some sort of "power" over the person. (the forgiver has the power to forgive over the forgivee)

What everyone here is talking about is following Christ's example to forgive those even when they don't repent....ie: love your enemies, pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you. I don't see how THAT fits in with what you're saying at all.


According to your thesis, we can now look at history and say we don't have to forgive anyone who's ever wronged us until they repent. Well Rome has asked the East for forgiveness about the incendent in 1204, have you forgiven the West for said atrocity? Oh but wait, since the East has never apologized to the West for some of the things East did to them, does that mean they don't have to forgive us?

The Muslim's don't have to forgive the Christians when we've wronged them, (because we don't apologize) and we don't have to forgive them because they won't repent? (I'm trying to make this as generalized as I can, and not pick specific issues out of modern history for the sake of charity)

Wow! What a way to live. It seems we've been trying that nonsense for most of human civilization and it doesn't work. I thought Christ's message was "counter cultural", or counter intuitive . . . but according to you, forgiveness is something that one must earn, which puts the forgiver in the position of absolute power over the forgivee. I thought Jesus said, do not lord it over others, and also, "if you forgive those who forgive you what reward have you?"



Quote
3.1) Following your pattern, I could easily accuse you of blaspheming His Incarnation, Death and Resurrection. It is horrible for me even to spell the consequences of such an attitude out consequently; He would have been a lousy, unloving God, undertaking silly ventures which were completely unnecessary - all he should have done was to forgive; the attribute of reason, which was gifted to us for we are created in the image of God would not be necessary, for there would be no good and evil to differ; Why has He come? To vanquish victory over sin? Why? He could have forgiven it!

You're taking a VERY western (Protestant western at that) view of the Incarnation. And yes, technically God could have just waved a magic wand and set things right because God can do anything He wants. But the Incarnation is an act of love, of setting us back on the straight path, not merely a juridical act.

I've been wronged by a  lot of people, some of whom never repented and asked me to forgive them, and yet I struggle to pray for them, and continue to struggle to forgive them. It gets easier as time goes on, by God's grace. But according to you, I shouldn't forgive them because they have not repented? Well, I tried that it only hurt ME spiritually to have this pent up anger and resentment and unforgiveness inside of me. Forgiving our enemies is not easy, in fact it is down right HARD, but that is what Jesus taught. Sometimes Christ asks us to do the hard things, not the easy things...and not forgiving those who've wronged us is easy, until it eats away at our souls that is.

None of us are talking about the Holy Sacrament of Confession, which is God forgiving us, not us forgiving other people. You seem to be conflating 2 entirely different issues by bringing up confession. One is between us and God, the other is between us and our fellow man. As others brought up, the Good Samaritan story is a perfect example of what we're all taking about. 1st century Jews despised Samaritans....in modern times the story would probably be titled "the good Latin" or "the good Muslim" or "the good Albanian" or "the good Mexican" or "the good Macedonian" or "the Good OO" or the "Good Croatian" or "the good New/Old Calendarist" or any other number of groups of people that are often maligned by one group of people or another for various reasons. These people are to be forgiven because they are not our enemies, but our brothers and sisters in humanity...all people are a living icon of Christ, even non Christians. How many times do I forgive me brother? 70 times 7...or in other words, as many times as it takes.


Absolutely beautifully said!  PoM nominee!!!
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« Reply #75 on: October 14, 2008, 12:47:25 PM »

Absolutely beautifully said!  PoM nominee!!!
Nomination has been registered.
This has been a most fruitful thread for POM nominations and they show how the apophatic approach to Orthodox theology works.

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« Reply #76 on: October 14, 2008, 01:14:27 PM »

No - if my reasoning is true, that only leaves open the possibility of returning to Eden.  The fall from Eden was a consequence of sin, preordained and decreed as such.  God could have changed the order of things, yes, but that would be an action in addition to forgiveness.

No. The expulsion was an action, too. And it was aimed specifically for granting them opportunity for repentance. He made them mortal for the sin in them not to remain immortal - check that in Romanides' "Ancestral sin", it isn't online.

If your theory is true, and repentance is not necessary, then:

1) God would have forgiven Adam and Even, and not cast them out, accepting the sin in them;

2) There would be no opposition between God and devil, for God would have forgiven him long ago;

3) There would be no need for Incarnation, Death and Resurrection, all that would have been needed would be God to forgive, which He could have done in the first place to Adam and Eve;

3.1) Following your pattern, I could easily accuse you of blaspheming His Incarnation, Death and Resurrection. It is horrible for me even to spell the consequences of such an attitude out consequently; He would have been a lousy, unloving God, undertaking silly ventures which were completely unnecessary - all he should have done was to forgive; the attribute of reason, which was gifted to us for we are created in the image of God would not be necessary, for there would be no good and evil to differ; Why has He come? To vanquish victory over sin? Why? He could have forgiven it!

4) Christ wouldn't have casted the traders out of the Temple - he would just have forgiven them; He wouldn't have said to Synedrion they were commiting the deeds of their father devil, He would just have forgiven them; There would be no sense in Judas commiting suicide - God would have forgiven him;

5) We wouldn't need Holy Spirit to stay with us until His Second Arrival - what would be the purpose of Him if forgivness that we hope for, is all that's required, regardless our actions? Simon the Sourcerer would be right;

6) Either Hell wouldn't exist at all, or God would have been an arbitrary and unforgiving torturer;

7) We wouldn't be baptized unto Christ's death; there would have to be some other, more relaxed ceremony related to forgivness; Church would allow communion to all, and there would be no confession, assuming repentance; there would be no epitimia, since it is so "unforgiving" (btw, do you still have it in your area?);

I could go on, but this is more than enough for my point. While the root of your stance, I think, lies here:

Quote
Really?  The whole argument is about forgiveness without repentance.  The Son, a member of the Holy Trinity, requested of the Father that Forgiveness be given.  ...
The principle still stands - they committed a sin (in this case, murdering an innocent Man, even if they didn't know that He Is the Son of God), and He granted and asked for forgiveness without their repentance.  It's called Divine Love, and we all hope for it.
and here:
a) I don't have Divine qualities.

By virtue of your being created in God's image and likeness, you do; now, if you chose not to exercise them, then that's your prerogative. But it is you choice, not your nature, to not exhibit Divine Qualities.

For such a stance assumes you have already gained Divine properties of your own and are entitled to grant Forgiveness (while Judging) not to sinner, but to sin. You are your own Judge and your own Forgiver. You already know the final sentece for those who crucified Christ. You have no other God(s) but Yourself.

Something else to think about... Undecided

You seem to have redefined the word "forgive".  Reading your posts on this subject, one would have to think you see forgiveness as the cancellation of natural consequences, so that our being required to suffer the consequences of our sin is evidence that God has not forgiven us.  This is simply not the case.  If forgiveness is anything, it is the eradication of any desire for vengeance and a decision to seek only the best for the person who has wronged us.  God has forgiven us, and He shows us this not by cancelling the natural consequences of our sin, but by yearning to guide us and redeem us through the consequences of our sin.
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« Reply #77 on: October 15, 2008, 05:45:54 AM »

I came across this verse:

Quote
And others save with fear pulling [them] out of the fire
hating even the garment spotted by the flesh

Does it sound familiar to anyone?

Where it has been written? What does it speak about?

I'd appreciate any comment, particularly by those who pointed to my errors and heresies. Thanks in advance.
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« Reply #78 on: October 15, 2008, 07:23:44 AM »

I came across this verse:

Quote
And others save with fear pulling [them] out of the fire
hating even the garment spotted by the flesh

Does it sound familiar to anyone?

Where it has been written? What does it speak about?

I'd appreciate any comment, particularly by those who pointed to my errors and heresies. Thanks in advance.
That's an interesting little edit there.
The text in context reads:

"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
And of some have compassion, making a difference:
And others save in fear (εν φοβω), pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh."

You're not supposed to instil fear in them- you're supposed to try and save them in fear- that is, in your own fear of God. It is your own garment spotted by flesh you must hate when seeking to save others- a reminder to be humble. This is a warning that it is a fearsome thing to try and teach others, because you will be held accountable, not only for your salvation, but theirs as well. Which is why we must "keep ourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of Our Lord Jesus Christ."
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« Reply #79 on: October 15, 2008, 07:24:13 AM »

...By speculating on how God administers forgiveness and how repentance works, we sometimes find ourselves either taking a journey into or rather are stating that we somehow know the mind of God, both of them being endeavours no one to this day has been able to successfully complete...",
...In short, my humble advice to all (this includes me as well) is simply this: one must be VERY careful as to how one words his or her findings on how God operates in the world we live in...

Exactly. Now, if you go back and pay attention to what I wrote, you may be surprised that I actually did none of the errors and dangers you pointed, but stood explicitly against such an approach.

...ironically you seem to be taking a hyper-western stance on the purpose of the Incarnation, ie: juridical view of the Cross and Resurrection...we sinned, thus God had to die in our place.

Could you please quote my words making such an impression to you? Place them bold, underlined or red if you can, because I can't see them.

If I take what you're saying at face value, (we don't have to forgive unless the person who wronged us repents first) then I don't have to forgive anyone who ever wrongs me.

I claimed none of it.

...
You seem to have redefined the word "forgive". 

I can't see I have. Though I can't agree completely with your perspective, for, as OrthodoxPilgrim pointed above, I steer clear from trying to comprehend how God exactly operates in the World, no doubt we are sinning and He forgives and guides His flock.

None of us are talking about the Holy Sacrament of Confession, which is God forgiving us, not us forgiving other people.

Perhaps here lies the explanation of my impression that several of you have been consistently misunderstanding what I'm trying to say.

Forgivness by God is what matters for the sinner.

Forgivness by a man is what matter for the forgiver.

I've already said


Love without Truth isn't Love at all. Love in Lie is actually Hatred.


Now, a) if I perceive an error/sin/danger of/for a brother/sister, should I

b.1) symphatize with him/her, and remain silent about the behaviour/attitude I find dangerous not only for him/her, than for anyone he/she indoctrinates errenously?

b.2) point to it, but if he/she reacts to my warning as to an insult, without even realizing what is that what I'm pointing, then I should apologize, so he/she can continue doing it with the knowledge that I actually I retracted my complaint, so he/she is actually right about it?

b.2.1) If I was right in my perception, does he/she have better of worse chances to be forgiven by God:

b.2.1.1) with the awarenes about my unretracted complaint, that might lead him/her to rethink it sometimes in future?

b.2.1.2) with the awarenes about my retracted complaint, that might lead him/her think he/she must be right, because nobody complains it and everybody supports it?

b.2.2) If I was wrong in my perception,

b.2.2.1) what would my forgivness mean to him/her if only that matters is forgivness by God?

b.2.2.2) would my forgivness actually mean anything to me if I can't see that I was wrong and actually do it against my conscious?

Finally, are my chances to be forgiven by God if I follow b.1) better or worse than in case I follow any of possibilities under b.2)?

All of this, of course, not in relation only to sinner/errer/endangered, but in relation to sin/error/danger as well.

Now, answering these questions might help. At least I hink they'd be benefficial to OrthodoxPilgrim while writing about St. GoldenMouth to see that he actually never presented contradictory position, for Love assumes Truth and excludes Lie.
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« Reply #80 on: October 15, 2008, 07:28:20 AM »

That's an interesting little edit there.
The text in context reads:

"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
And of some have compassion, making a difference:
And others save in fear (εν φοβω), pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh."

You're not supposed to instil fear in them- you're supposed to try and save them in fear- that is, in your own fear of God. It is your own garment spotted by flesh you must hate when seeking to save others- a reminder to be humble. This is a warning that it is a fearsome thing to try and teach others, because you will be held accountable, not only for your salvation, but theirs as well. Which is why we must "keep ourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of Our Lord Jesus Christ."

Exactly.

From my part, I tried to do my best not even to try to lecture anyone. I just expressed complaints. But I may have failed, that's always a possibility.
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« Reply #81 on: October 15, 2008, 12:00:58 PM »


...ironically you seem to be taking a hyper-western stance on the purpose of the Incarnation, ie: juridical view of the Cross and Resurrection...we sinned, thus God had to die in our place.

Could you please quote my words making such an impression to you? Place them bold, underlined or red if you can, because I can't see them.

I actually don't have the time, desire or energy to go through this entire thread and point out every single thing that drew me to this conclusion. But since you seem to ask nicely, I'll give a couple brief quotes. This post in particular gave me this impression:


No. The expulsion was an action, too. And it was aimed specifically for granting them opportunity for repentance. He made them mortal for the sin in them not to remain immortal - check that in Romanides' "Ancestral sin", it isn't online.


You seem to be saying that the expulsion from paradise was specifically a "punishment" for their sin. God said, don't eat the fruit, or I'll punish you...they ate the fruit and God punished them. I was under the impression that the expulsion from Paradise was as much for Adam and Eve's protection as it was a "punishment."





If your theory is true, and repentance is not necessary, then:

1) God would have forgiven Adam and Even, and not cast them out, accepting the sin in them;



Here you are confusing our repentance before God with the subject at hand, which everyone else is assuming to be us forgiving our fellow man.



2) There would be no opposition between God and devil, for God would have forgiven him long ago;


Who's to say God hasn't forgiven Satan or at least won't forgive him? That doesn't mean Satan will be saved, because salvation is not just a juridical act, but of theosis as well. Synergy between God and his creatures. And we know where Satan stands with that idea. Smiley




3) There would be no need for Incarnation, Death and Resurrection, all that would have been needed would be God to forgive, which He could have done in the first place to Adam and Eve;


I bolded, redened and underlined this one because this is the piece that stood out among everything else to me. God COULD have just "forgiven" Adam and Eve, (as you rightly say) and yet Orthodoxy understands that the consequences of their actions in Eden would still have remained...ie: death (whether death means physical or spiritual or both).

This sentence that you wrote, implies to me, that the Incarnation was merely a juridical act. Why? Because logically if you say that if God had forgiven Adam and Eve from the get go, then there would have been no need of the Incarnation, then  connecting the dots, the Incarnation is simply an act of juridical forgiveness. ie: a hyper-western view of the Incarnation.



3.1) Following your pattern, I could easily accuse you of blaspheming His Incarnation, Death and Resurrection. It is horrible for me even to spell the consequences of such an attitude out consequently; He would have been a lousy, unloving God, undertaking silly ventures which were completely unnecessary - all he should have done was to forgive;


He COULD have just forgiven Adam and Eve, but the consequences of their actions would have remained. Since I'm not a theologian, I won't speculate "well why didn't God fix that too?" The only answer I can give is it may have interfered with our free will.


4) Christ wouldn't have casted the traders out of the Temple - he would just have forgiven them; He wouldn't have said to Synedrion they were commiting the deeds of their father devil, He would just have forgiven them; There would be no sense in Judas commiting suicide - God would have forgiven him;




6) Either Hell wouldn't exist at all, or God would have been an arbitrary and unforgiving torturer;


This is a  very western (and I don't necessarily mean Catholic either) concept of Hell, ie: a place God sends evil doers to torture them for eternity. Hence my perception of you taking a western view of the Incarnation.


If I take what you're saying at face value, (we don't have to forgive unless the person who wronged us repents first) then I don't have to forgive anyone who ever wrongs me.

I claimed none of it.

You didn't claim that forgiveness is reliant on repentance? Isn't that your whole thesis here?



None of us are talking about the Holy Sacrament of Confession, which is God forgiving us, not us forgiving other people.

Perhaps here lies the explanation of my impression that several of you have been consistently misunderstanding what I'm trying to say.



You may be right! I think we're talking past each other or something.

Quote

Forgivness by God is what matters for the sinner.

Forgivness by a man is what matter for the forgiver.


I think that's basically what we're saying. But you shouldn't forgive someone who's wronged simply to "get" forgiveness from God. (just we shouldn't give money to to get money) Our intentions should be pure, or at least with the intention that we want to forgive as best we can.



Love without Truth isn't Love at all. Love in Lie is actually Hatred.

Now, a) if I perceive an error/sin/danger of/for a brother/sister, should I

b.1) symphatize with him/her, and remain silent about the behaviour/attitude I find dangerous not only for him/her, than for anyone he/she indoctrinates errenously?

b.2) point to it, but if he/she reacts to my warning as to an insult, without even realizing what is that what I'm pointing, then I should apologize, so he/she can continue doing it with the knowledge that I actually I retracted my complaint, so he/she is actually right about it?

b.2.1) If I was right in my perception, does he/she have better of worse chances to be forgiven by God

b.2.1.1) with the awarenes about my unretracted complaint, that might lead him/her to rethink it sometimes in future?

b.2.1.2) with the awarenes about my retracted complaint, that might lead him/her think he/she must be right, because nobody complains it and everybody supports it?

b.2.2) If I was wrong in my perception,

b.2.2.1) what would my forgivness mean to him/her if only that matters is forgivness by God?

b.2.2.2) would my forgivness actually mean anything to me if I can't see that I was wrong and actually do it against my conscious?

Finally, are my chances to be forgiven by God if I follow b.1) better or worse than in case I follow any of possibilities under b.2)?

All of this, of course, not in relation only to sinner/errer/endangered, but in relation to sin/error/danger as well.

My head hurts...lol!

I really didn't follow you in this last quote, I apologize.

 I think sometimes we Christians try to rationalize and scholasticize (including EO) Christ's message way, way too much, as if it's a scholastic endeavor to learn how to forgive. (ie: option a, b, c, 1.1, 2.1 and so on) I don't think Christ's message is that complicated.

If someone wrongs you, you forgive. If someone persecutes you, you forgive. Forgive and you shall be forgiven, Christ said. Love your enemies, pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father in Heaven. I agree, there is depth and layers to Scriptures and Christ's teachings, depths beyond all human reason, logic, and being....but to me, the depth starts with the simplicity and faith of a child. The depth comes with holiness, not with scholastic study alone or systematizing the appropriateness of forgiving someone who wrongs you.

The main reason I say that is because if we begin to turn the act of forgiveness into some sort of logical issue (in this case I forgive, but in that case I point out error before I forgive, and in another case I do this, and that, and wait for them to do this and that before I forgive) we can begin to deceive ourselves as the ultimate judge and arbiter of someone elses sins. (even if we never intend to) We would also rationalize in our own minds that it's ok not to forgive this person or that person, because we are imperfect, and always try to find ways to make ourselves happy. I've done it, and rationalized for a long time about not forgiving someone, all the while KNOWING I was in the right to not forgive them. That's normal, but after a few years, it's necessary to just forgive...if you can't forgive then ask God to help you forgive...if you can't do that, ask God to help you to want to forgive this person, even though you hate them. (that's how I started out)

As far as pointing out people's sins to them so they will know they sinned and will have a chance to repent, I don't buy that because people know when they've sinned to begin with. Secondly, who am I to go around pointing out everyone elses sins just so "they can repent before God". I've got my own issues to deal with, and I leave the pointing out of sins to their spiritual father. Close family might be another story, but just general people in the parish or on the street, or someone of a different faith....sorry, not my place. (we're not talking about something vile like murder here, but every day sins)

Hopefully what I've said makes sense, sometimes I don't quite know how to say what I mean to say....

Ps: edited to fix a couple quote tags and fix one comment...and to add, I only pointed out the sentences that I perceived to by western in theology (again not so much Catholic theology, but more Calvinism theology) because you asked and I assume you wanted to clarify, and weren't trying to bait me into a debate. (which I have to desire to partake in) I'm not a theologian and not capable of debating these issues, only giving my understand, and pointing out that perceptions can be different than what we intend to write on the internet.

Hopefully there is no misunderstanding of my words here as well.

In Peace...





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« Reply #82 on: October 15, 2008, 01:28:30 PM »


No. The expulsion was an action, too. And it was aimed specifically for granting them opportunity for repentance. He made them mortal for the sin in them not to remain immortal - check that in Romanides' "Ancestral sin", it isn't online.


You seem to be saying that the expulsion from paradise was specifically a "punishment" for their sin.

You are obviously busy and in a rush.
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« Reply #83 on: October 15, 2008, 04:49:41 PM »


No. The expulsion was an action, too. And it was aimed specifically for granting them opportunity for repentance. He made them mortal for the sin in them not to remain immortal - check that in Romanides' "Ancestral sin", it isn't online.


You seem to be saying that the expulsion from paradise was specifically a "punishment" for their sin.

You are obviously busy and in a rush.
So, what does that have to do with anything?  You can't refute the criticism of your words, so you resort to making baseless assumptions about the critic?
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« Reply #84 on: October 15, 2008, 05:02:38 PM »


No. The expulsion was an action, too. And it was aimed specifically for granting them opportunity for repentance. He made them mortal for the sin in them not to remain immortal - check that in Romanides' "Ancestral sin", it isn't online.


You seem to be saying that the expulsion from paradise was specifically a "punishment" for their sin.

You are obviously busy and in a rush.
So, what does that have to do with anything?  You can't refute the criticism of your words, so you resort to making baseless assumptions about the critic?

It does have with reading what they criticize, so I don't debate with their illusions. I don't have that much free time...
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« Reply #85 on: October 15, 2008, 05:15:42 PM »


No. The expulsion was an action, too. And it was aimed specifically for granting them opportunity for repentance. He made them mortal for the sin in them not to remain immortal - check that in Romanides' "Ancestral sin", it isn't online.


You seem to be saying that the expulsion from paradise was specifically a "punishment" for their sin.

You are obviously busy and in a rush.
So, what does that have to do with anything?  You can't refute the criticism of your words, so you resort to making baseless assumptions about the critic?

It does have with reading what they criticize, so I don't debate with their illusions. I don't have that much free time...
But you still haven't addressed why you assumed NorthernPines was "obviously busy and in a rush" when you could have simply corrected his misunderstanding of what you said.
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« Reply #86 on: October 15, 2008, 05:39:37 PM »


No. The expulsion was an action, too. And it was aimed specifically for granting them opportunity for repentance. He made them mortal for the sin in them not to remain immortal - check that in Romanides' "Ancestral sin", it isn't online.


You seem to be saying that the expulsion from paradise was specifically a "punishment" for their sin.

You are obviously busy and in a rush.
So, what does that have to do with anything?  You can't refute the criticism of your words, so you resort to making baseless assumptions about the critic?

It does have with reading what they criticize, so I don't debate with their illusions. I don't have that much free time...
But you still haven't addressed why you assumed NorthernPines was "obviously busy and in a rush" when you could have simply corrected his misunderstanding of what you said.

Well, in addition to the time spent, I didn't want to deprive readers of this thread of the opportunity to see that enlarged part of the quote of mine paired with your comment... Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
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« Reply #87 on: October 16, 2008, 05:19:39 AM »

...By speculating on how God administers forgiveness and how repentance works, we sometimes find ourselves either taking a journey into or rather are stating that we somehow know the mind of God, both of them being endeavours no one to this day has been able to successfully complete...",
...In short, my humble advice to all (this includes me as well) is simply this: one must be VERY careful as to how one words his or her findings on how God operates in the world we live in...

Exactly. Now, if you go back and pay attention to what I wrote, you may be surprised that I actually did none of the errors and dangers you pointed, but stood explicitly against such an approach.

How convenient of you to skip the next sentence of my post....."What is worse, by taking a particular position and saying "this is how God does things....", which again renders the other position as false or partially true, we are indirectly putting the One, Intellectually Unfathomable, Holy, Magnificent, Transcendent God into a proverbial theological and philosphical box wherein his actions are now fully understood and comrepehended and the "mystery" of God and his actions has been cracked, so to speak.".......We all, from time to time have often indulged in this, my friend and yes, this would include you too....you have displayed this form of absolutist declarations on the workings of God here:

Quote
No forgiveness without repentance. The repentance is not required for rightous to be proved right, but to sinner/errer to see his sins/errors.

By forgiving without repentance, a forgiver participates in the committed sin post festum and is supporting and co-authoring future sins.

You are here, found stating in absolute terms via implication that this is how God works, when neither you nor I are fit to declare in absolutist terms as to how God works in his world....Now, as I mentioned BEFORE...and I will clarify what I said, in case you didn't pick up on this the first time: You have a valid point in stating the above.....Normally, as we sift through the scriptures, it is found that repentance is expected in order for forgiveness and/or reconciliation...HOWEVER, there is also the great sentence uttered by Christ on the Cross, asking the Father to forgive those who don't know what they do. These words when found in the mouth of a believer normally meant that he/she was asking God to forgive those who are out to kill and destroy those who are in Christ...this same type of forgiveness is the same type which St. John Chrysostom, in his homilies says that we are told to imitate when faced in times of persecution....St. Ireneaus, describes God in his homilies as "Long-suffering" in his dealings with human error and sin...this is seen very clearly in the above posts you have posted of St. John Chrysostom as he is seen to be punishing King Nebuchadnezzar, but is doing so reluctantly out of love, so that he may come closer to God and repent. God is seen here, as suffering on behalf of his human sons and daughters, in standing to see our errors because of God's immense love for humanity and disciplines them also, out of loving reluctance. We, as ones who called to live like Him, must mirror that exact same attitude when dealing with our brothers and sisters who have moved away from the Truth Faith: Long-Suffering, Forgiving and Loving in all respects...hoping and attempting by all means, just as God did what he did to bring the Babylonian King to the Faith, to bring to the Faith those amongst us who, due to them having different life experiences and/or being reared in particular religious backgrounds and now see things in a particular way, simply do not know any better at times. The overarching idea here is: Love. Also, you fail to mentioned that repentance, in the eyes of the Fathers, was not an act within a particular space of time in our lives, but rather a process which continues on till the very end of our lives...repentance is a process, as oppossed to an isolated, single act in the life of a human being....So as this process keeps going forward and as one struggles in living out the Holy, Godliy life on earth, forgiveness is also a lengthy process oriented act as well.....how does this change what you said? Well, I can't answer that since you never stated anything of this sort in particular...but this view may come in conflict with your above statements since, if what you said is true, then God has truly sinned in that he has "supported" future sins in taking part with his fellow human beings in a process-centred forgiveness-repentance view as oppossed to an event-centred forgiveness-repentance view as you seem to be espousing above....Another important question that you need to answer, which you haven't done so (atleast not concisely enough for my tastes) is that if one has to repent, in order to be forgiven AT ALL TIMES, (Basic philosophical premise: humans must do X in order to obtain Y from God) then how can you explain the Incarnation?...when, in the history of Intertestemental Judaism can you point out a time when all of Israel had their hands up in the air and pleaded with the Father to forgive them of their sins, so that the Father can send them the Redeemer to destroy the power of death and sin over human life?....humanity, after the Incarnation, received FAR more than forgiveness...we received redemption from death and sin...what did we as humans do to deserve this? ......I don't know how you can answer this, but the Biblical answer to this is simply: Grace....and more Grace....If we are told to be imitators of God, and if God dispenses Grace (i.e. something provided to us when we are not worthy of receiving it), then isn't it only apt that we as those who claim to dwell in the Light, (though God's grace) emanate this Divine grace to those that are simply unworthy of receiving it? (this could be Catholics, Muslims, Protestants, EO, OO.....heck even atheists like Richard Dawkins)

All in all, I agree with you partially, Lurker....the reason why I say partially is becuase the synergetic process of repentance-forgiveness between God and man is so much more complicated than you or I can ever imagine and it simply doesn't work in the absolutist sense as you have outlined. AGAIN, you have correctly outlined the basic norm of how repentance has worked...but as I said before, it is much much more complicated than that.....by not taking into consideration the other Divine attributes such as Love and Grace and factoring them into God's administation of forgiveness, you are only limiting yourself in seeing only one side of the picture, my brother. That is all I have to say on this....

Quote
Now, answering these questions might help. At least I hink they'd be benefficial to OrthodoxPilgrim while writing about St. GoldenMouth to see that he actually never presented contradictory position, for Love assumes Truth and excludes Lie.

I am sorry, bro...but from the way you have carried yourself here in this thread, I have changed my mind on this and am not going to do it anymore. Another reason (which is primarily the reason why I cannot write up anything recreational for that matter) is that I am already bombarded with enough work from University as it is and I cannot find time to do much else these days......so I apologize...but maybe some other time perhaps......All I want you to know is that St. John Chrysostom's views on repetance and forgiveness is much more complicated than you make it out to be.....I can offer you St. John's commentaries on the Luke 23:34 passage and other potions in his writings where he has touched on it.....I am not trying to refute what you are saying (AGAIN) but rather adding the other side to it.....if you feel like have nothing to learn, then keep acting the way you've been and nothing changes....I, on the other hand, do feel like I have a LOT to learn, so if you can kindly please show me where in the works of St. John Chrysostom does your absolutist rendering of repentance and forgiveness show?...by doing this, you must prove by citing St. John Chrysostom that the passage of Luke 23:34 has not and should not factor into our forgiveness of those who tresspass against us and also is not a factor in the dynamics of forgiveness within the Godhead as well.......In other words, you must prove from St. John Chrysostom that my "additional comments" on your remaining views doesn't exist (since that is what I was only trying to say and nothing more).....

In Christ,

+



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« Reply #88 on: October 16, 2008, 06:38:11 AM »

How convenient of you to skip the next sentence of my post....."What is worse, by taking a particular position and saying "this is how God does things...."

I did that because I have an impression that nobody actually reads my arguments, while I repeated exactly your point several times.

you have displayed this form of absolutist declarations on the workings of God here:

Quote from: orthodoxlurker
No forgiveness without repentance. The repentance is not required for rightous to be proved right, but to sinner/errer to see his sins/errors.

By forgiving without repentance, a forgiver participates in the committed sin post festum and is supporting and co-authoring future sins.

Now I see what you've been complaining all the time. But the point is that the above sentence referred to forgiveness by a man, and not to forgivness by God. How could I possibly know to whom will God forgive?

But I should know that I should not support what I see as sin/error/danger and that it is supposed to be my duty to signal about it to sinner/errer/endangered. When we all do that, that's what's called ekklesia (sp?) - a community of believers. Of course, once we have our message delivered, it ought to be left up to the sinner's/errer's/endangered's conscience to act according to his will.
If what you said is true, then God has truly sinned in that he has "supported" future sins in taking part with his fellow human beings in a process-centred forgiveness-repentance view as oppossed to an event-centred forgiveness-repentance view as you seem to be  espousing above....

An extremely important part, crushing the complaints against what I (meant to) wrote here is the difference between us and God-Man - He will return to kill antiChrist (whom will enthrone himself in our sins), while we will not be able to stop him. The unanswered questions are:

1) Are we supposed to forgive antiChrist?

1.1) If we are, are we his advents?

1.2) If we are not, how does the exposed theory of unconditional forgiveness (by us, human), in time, during the sinning, stand in that relation?

I actually don't expect you to answer the questions, just think about them during the studies.
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« Reply #89 on: October 16, 2008, 09:53:46 AM »

you have displayed this form of absolutist declarations on the workings of God here:

Quote from: orthodoxlurker
No forgiveness without repentance. The repentance is not required for rightous to be proved right, but to sinner/errer to see his sins/errors.

By forgiving without repentance, a forgiver participates in the committed sin post festum and is supporting and co-authoring future sins.

Now I see what you've been complaining all the time. But the point is that the above sentence referred to forgiveness by a man, and not to forgivness by God. How could I possibly know to whom will God forgive?

Yes, that's exactly what we've been complaining about all the time - the absolute judgment on those who forgive.  While I know your intent was for that to be a statement on how men forgive, we have to be careful, for God has forgiven as a God-man before, meaning that our standards for forgiveness need to be aligned with His.  While God can do anything He pleases, including end the world, end free will, forgive all sin, or hold all accountable even for the slightest of errors, we are called to reflect God's compassion and Love.

My point (and, I think, the point of others here) is that forgiveness should be given freely; this won't change the fact that the one who is forgiven will still have to deal with the consequences of their actions (just as Adam and Eve had to deal with the consequences), and the one who forgives should still show the Good Way to those whom they forgive.  We can call men to repentance through the words of our Savior and the teachings of the Church; but it can't be a condition of our forgiving them - it must only be our desire to see them reconciled with God.
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« Reply #90 on: October 16, 2008, 11:04:02 AM »


My point (and, I think, the point of others here) is that forgiveness should be given freely; this won't change the fact that the one who is forgiven will still have to deal with the consequences of their actions (just as Adam and Eve had to deal with the consequences), and the one who forgives should still show the Good Way to those whom they forgive.  We can call men to repentance through the words of our Savior and the teachings of the Church; but it can't be a condition of our forgiving them - it must only be our desire to see them reconciled with God.

Excellent, so all that is missing is the answer to this:


An extremely important part, crushing the complaints against what I (meant to) wrote here is the difference between us and God-Man - He will return to kill antiChrist (whom will enthrone himself in our sins), while we will not be able to stop him. The unanswered questions are:

1) Are we supposed to forgive antiChrist?

1.1) If we are, are we his advents?

1.2) If we are not, how does the exposed theory of unconditional forgiveness (by us, human), in time, during the sinning, stand in that relation?

...
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« Reply #91 on: October 16, 2008, 11:30:41 AM »

Orthodoxlurker,

I did that because I have an impression that nobody actually reads my arguments, while I repeated exactly your point several times.

But we're all reading your posts and are all drawing basically the same conclusions about what you're saying. Either you're double talking here, or it may be simply you're not expressing yourself/thoughts with the intention you mean to,  which is a major issue I have at times on internet forums. In fact that is one reason I do not care to get into a debate on this issue, or any issue on the internet, because it only leads to more confusion. (at least when it comes to my intentions and my input)



Quote
But I should know that I should not support what I see as sin/error/danger and that it is supposed to be my duty to signal about it to sinner/errer/endangered.

It's your duty to point out other people's sins? Are you kidding? Didn't Jesus say to first remove the plank from your own eye, before removing the speck from your brother's eye?

Quote
When we all do that, that's what's called ekklesia (sp?) - a community of believers.

No, it's called being rude! Smiley


Quote
Of course, once we have our message delivered, it ought to be left up to the sinner's/errer's/endangered's conscience to act according to his will.


Maybe this story about St. Moses the black will be helpful, it was forwarded to me when I was struggling over this issue. (the version I first read was forwarded to me by a priest, and it was somewhat longer but this is all I could find googling) And yes, he is an EO saint.


Once the Fathers of the Scetis were holding a council to reprimand a monk who had committed a fault. St. Moses was invited, but he refused to attend. The priest went to him, and said, Come, for the people are expecting you. St. Moses arose, took a bag filled with sand that had a hole in the bottom of it, carried it on his shoulder and started walking towards the council. When the monks saw him coming with the bag of sand, with sand pouring out of the hole, they asked him the reason of his behavior. He said to them, The sand you see running from the bag represents my sins which are always following me, and yet, today I am coming to judge the errors of my brother. When they heard this, they left the council and every monk went to his own cell, as none could judge that monk.


Maybe others know other stories such as this which were quite enlightening, (and hard to accept at first) to me. But for me anyway, in the long run, this story helped me tremendously. although I have a LONG path ahead of me, and am just on the beginning of the journey, so and any forgiveness I've been able to give is certainly not under my own power, but by God's grace only.


In peace...



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« Reply #92 on: October 16, 2008, 11:58:34 AM »

The unanswered questions are:

1) Are we supposed to forgive antiChrist?

1.1) If we are, are we his advents?

1.2) If we are not, how does the exposed theory of unconditional forgiveness (by us, human), in time, during the sinning, stand in that relation?

I actually don't expect you to answer the questions, just think about them during the studies.
Yes, we are to forgive everyone. Christ said that He forgives the sins of those who forgive others. Therefore, if we are to be forgiven, we must forgive others--all others. There have been many Antichrists, among them the Sanhedrin, Nero, Mohammed, Lenin, and Christ calls us to forgive them. He Himself forgave those who killed Him, while on the cross, before they had repented of their sins. To be Christians, to be followers of Christ, we must follow His example and forgive others regardless of whether they repent. Only then do we ourselves have a chance at God's forgiveness.
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« Reply #93 on: October 16, 2008, 02:08:03 PM »

The unanswered questions are:

1) Are we supposed to forgive antiChrist?

1.1) If we are, are we his advents?

1.2) If we are not, how does the exposed theory of unconditional forgiveness (by us, human), in time, during the sinning, stand in that relation?

I actually don't expect you to answer the questions, just think about them during the studies.
Yes, we are to forgive everyone. Christ said that He forgives the sins of those who forgive others. Therefore, if we are to be forgiven, we must forgive others--all others.

Well, I'm glad we have clarified the issue.

I will stay Orthodox. You will forgive antiChrist.

Don't send him my regards.
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« Reply #94 on: October 16, 2008, 06:01:11 PM »

^ Okay, I won't. Unfortunately, you have two choices: to tell Antichrist you forgive him, or to tell Christ why you didn't.
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« Reply #95 on: October 16, 2008, 06:30:11 PM »

^ Okay, I won't. Unfortunately, you have two choices: to tell Antichrist you forgive him, or to tell Christ why you didn't.

 Roll Eyes  Why am I expecting Ozzy to start singing the 'Barney' song at any moment?
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« Reply #96 on: October 16, 2008, 06:34:44 PM »

^ Okay, I won't. Unfortunately, you have two choices: to tell Antichrist you forgive him, or to tell Christ why you didn't.

 Roll Eyes  Why am I expecting Ozzy to start singing the 'Barney' song at any moment?

Was he also singing that when Christ forgave those who crucified him? Roll Eyes
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« Reply #97 on: October 16, 2008, 06:47:06 PM »

1) Are we supposed to forgive antiChrist?
Yes.

1.1) If we are, are we his advents?
No, the opposite.
Evil can only be overcome with Good (Romans 12:21). Responding to evil with evil only increases it's power.

1.2) If we are not, how does the exposed theory of unconditional forgiveness (by us, human), in time, during the sinning, stand in that relation?
Irrelevant given the answer to 1.1.

Don't be fooled. Any "martyr" or "confessor" who refuses to forgive his persecutors has lost his reward. It benefits you nothing to be killed for the Faith if you hate and wish ill on those who kill you.
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« Reply #98 on: October 16, 2008, 07:16:21 PM »

1) Are we supposed to forgive antiChrist?
Yes.

1.1) If we are, are we his advents?
No, the opposite.
Evil can only be overcome with Good (Romans 12:21). Responding to evil with evil only increases it's power.

1.2) If we are not, how does the exposed theory of unconditional forgiveness (by us, human), in time, during the sinning, stand in that relation?
Irrelevant given the answer to 1.1.

Don't be fooled. Any "martyr" or "confessor" who refuses to forgive his persecutors has lost his reward. It benefits you nothing to be killed for the Faith if you hate and wish ill on those who kill you.

George (I'll do you the courtesy of actually using your name...), I have to say, this is probably my favorite of all the responses I've ever read that you have written.  Smiley  I couldn't have said it better myself!
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« Reply #99 on: October 16, 2008, 11:59:39 PM »

^ Okay, I won't. Unfortunately, you have two choices: to tell Antichrist you forgive him, or to tell Christ why you didn't.

 Roll Eyes  Why am I expecting Ozzy to start singing the 'Barney' song at any moment?
why do you call George "Ozzy?"  He asked you not to, where I come from that is a huge disrespect to not honor the request of a person to call him by his proper name. 
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« Reply #100 on: October 17, 2008, 12:09:18 AM »

^ Okay, I won't. Unfortunately, you have two choices: to tell Antichrist you forgive him, or to tell Christ why you didn't.

 Roll Eyes  Why am I expecting Ozzy to start singing the 'Barney' song at any moment?
why do you call George "Ozzy?"  He asked you not to, where I come from that is a huge disrespect to not honor the request of a person to call him by his proper name. 

Is it now?

Interesting.  Kiss
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« Reply #101 on: October 17, 2008, 12:20:22 AM »

^ Okay, I won't. Unfortunately, you have two choices: to tell Antichrist you forgive him, or to tell Christ why you didn't.

 Roll Eyes  Why am I expecting Ozzy to start singing the 'Barney' song at any moment?
why do you call George "Ozzy?"  He asked you not to, where I come from that is a huge disrespect to not honor the request of a person to call him by his proper name. 

Is it now?

Interesting.  Kiss

You kids today  Huh Roll Eyes
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« Reply #102 on: October 17, 2008, 12:45:53 AM »

^ I don't get it.
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« Reply #103 on: October 17, 2008, 01:29:43 AM »

Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”
Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven!
Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. And when he had begun to settle accounts, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. But as he was not able to pay, his Master commanded that he be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and that payment be made. The servant therefore fell down before him, saying, ‘Master, have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ Then the Master of that servant was moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt.
“But that servant went out and found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and he laid hands on him and took him by the throat, saying, ‘Pay me what you owe!’ So his fellow servant fell down at his feet and begged him, saying, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ And he would not, but went and threw him into prison till he should pay the debt. So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their Master all that had been done. Then his Master, after He had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me.  Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ And his Master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.
“So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”
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« Reply #104 on: October 17, 2008, 02:39:36 AM »

Notice:

This thread has been inspired by the thread:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,17916.0.html

So, how often must I forgive to stranger and custom officer?
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« Reply #105 on: October 17, 2008, 03:29:11 AM »

So, how often must I forgive to stranger and custom officer?

In other words, what you are asking is the same question which someone asked Our Lord, namely, "Who is my neighbour?"
His answer was that everyone you encounter (even here) is your neighbour.
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« Reply #106 on: October 17, 2008, 03:58:01 AM »

So, how often must I forgive to stranger and custom officer?

In other words, what you are asking is the same question which someone asked Our Lord, namely, "Who is my neighbour?"
His answer was that everyone you encounter (even here) is your neighbour.

No, what I meant was

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2018;&version=9;

Quote
Matthew 18

15Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

 16But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

 17And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

but I did not know the words exactly, so I used stranger instead of a heathen and custom officer instead of publican.
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« Reply #107 on: October 17, 2008, 04:18:47 AM »

but I did not know the words exactly, so I used stranger instead of a heathen and custom officer instead of publican.
You do realize that St. Matthew, whose Gospel you are trying to use to justify yourself, was a Publican don't you?

Lets look at "strangers" and "publicans" in the Gospel of St. Matthew (the publican)


About Strangers:

Matthew 25:31-40
“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you welcomed Me; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’
“Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? When did we see You a stranger and welcome You, or naked and clothe You? Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’"


About Publicans:

Matthew 9:10
And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with Him and his disciples.

Matthew 10:3

Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus;

Matthew 21:31

'Which of those two did the will of his Father?' They said unto Him, 'The first'. Jesus said unto them, 'Verily I say unto you, that the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you'.

Luke 5:27
And after these things he went forth, and saw a publican, named Levi, sitting at the receipt of custom: and he said unto him, Follow me.

Luke 18:9-14
Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a Publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’ And the publican, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’  I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”
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« Reply #108 on: October 17, 2008, 04:32:47 AM »


You do realize that St. Matthew, whose Gospel you are trying to use to justify yourself, was a Publican don't you?
...

You are mistaken. I have no need to justify myself to you.

Edit: "to you".
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« Reply #109 on: October 17, 2008, 04:54:29 AM »


You do realize that St. Matthew, whose Gospel you are trying to use to justify yourself, was a Publican don't you?
...

You are mistaken. I have no need to justify myself to you.

Edit: "to you".

.....So "nyah".....

Well I can see you're too much of a tower of knowledge when it comes to exegesis for me to contend with.
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« Reply #110 on: October 17, 2008, 10:47:54 AM »


Don't be fooled. Any "martyr" or "confessor" who refuses to forgive his persecutors has lost his reward. It benefits you nothing to be killed for the Faith if you hate and wish ill on those who kill you.

Excellent point. I've never heard it put quite so beautifully before. Thank you!
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« Reply #111 on: October 17, 2008, 10:57:57 AM »

I thought we orthodox don't put to much emphases on the Crucifixion of the lord but on the whole scenario.but mostly the resurrection that completes everything for our resurrection unto life or resurrection unto condemnation...


WHAT?  We certainly put as much emphasis on the Crucifixion as did those Saints who wrote the Gospels and Epistles.  We certainly do put as much emphasis on our Lord's Passion as our services repeatedly rehearse.  We are led through 40 days of fasting into Holy Week which culminates in our Lord's crucifixion.  Certainly it is correct to say that we understand the Passion of our Lord through the Ressurection, but to suggest that we "don't put to (too) much emphases on the Crucifixion", is simply a nonsensical statement.  Perhaps we don't follow the Jesuit practice instituted by its founder in attempting to create emotional short-cuts to being transformed by the knowledge we have been given in the Gospels and the Church, but I doubt we can ever give enough emphasis to the Crucifixion of our Lord.  The Eucharistic Liturgy and subsequent communion are as the Apostle Paul given to us by the Lord Himself and we are celebrating His Death until His future Parousia.

Too much emphasis on the Crucifixion...what an absurd idea.  There were and still remains three Crosses for each of us.  One belongs soley to our Lord, it was His by His own free-will; likewise we can choose for ourselves either of the other two.

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« Reply #112 on: October 17, 2008, 11:13:45 AM »

Orthodox lurker.

Here's another parable, about just who our neighbor is:


And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”

 He said to him, “What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?” So he answered and said, “ ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’”

And He said to him, “You have answered rightly; do this and you will live.”

But he, wanting to justify himself, said to Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”


Then Jesus answered and said: “A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, who stripped him of his clothing, wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead. Now by chance a certain priest came down that road. And when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. Likewise a Levite, when he arrived at the place, came and looked, and passed by on the other side. But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was. And when he saw him, he had compassion. So he went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine; and he set him on his own animal, brought him to an inn, and took care of him.  On the next day, when he departed, he took out two denarii, gave them to the innkeeper, and said to him, ‘Take care of him; and whatever more you spend, when I come again, I will repay you.’ So which of these three do you think was neighbor to him who fell among the thieves?”

And he said, “He who showed mercy on him.”

Then Jesus said to him, “Go and do likewise.”
Luke 10:25-37 NKJV

Maybe you're not aware of the cultural context of this parable, but the neighbor, Jesus says, is a Samaritan. Samaritans were totally despised as not quite Jewish and not quite Gentile...and yet Jesus uses the most despised person and said, THIS is your neighbor. Not only that, but Jesus has the Samaritan doing the good deeds that everyone with the proper lineage, religion, and cultural wouldn't do. Ie: the maligned had something to teach to those with "the true" faith and culture.

As I said in a previous post, if this story was told in an American cultural context, the Samaritan would probably be replaced with Mexican, or Muslim, or perhaps something even more shocking like homosexual, or something more disturbing than that...(I won't give specific examples but use your imagination) In other parts of the world, say Ireland, the Samaritan's role might be taken by taken by England, or Northern Ireland. In Israel the role might be given to "the good Palestinian" or even more shocking, perhaps "the good Hamas follower". In Iran, the role might be "the good Jew, or good atheist". In Turkey in might be, "the good Armenian" in Greece it might be "the good Turk" in Serbia it might be the "good Croatian" or good Albanian...and so and so forth. The point is the cultural context of the parable, Jesus took the most maligned group of people the Jews could possibly imagine, and said THAT is your neighbor. In America's past it would have been "the good African American", as Jesus  told this story to the KKK grand dragon. That's the point, it was meant to be shocking. And I always wonder just how shocked and horrified some people were when they heard this. How shocked would have I been? Would I have accepted it?

So next time you read that, think of the group of people, or person you most dislike, and instead of Samaritan, insert that person into the parable. That is the point, EVERYONE is our neighbor. customs officer, or anyone else you can't stand in whatever culture you come from is the Samaritan. It's a universal teaching for us today, and not only for 1st century Jews. The titles and cultures might be different, but the MEANING is universal, because Christ's message is universal and for all time.

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« Reply #113 on: October 17, 2008, 11:20:46 AM »

just wanted to clarify I'm not trying to say what Jesus would or wouldn't do if had been Incarnated in our modern age, (because I don't know). I was only trying to show the context of the good Samaritan parable in our modern world, as I understand the parable. Thanks....Smiley
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« Reply #114 on: October 17, 2008, 11:55:00 AM »

So next time you read that, think of the group of people, or person you most dislike, and instead of Samaritan, insert that person into the parable.


No argue about the person. But I was speaking about persons' errors/sins.

Also, on orthodoxchristianity.net board, I thought I would find only brothers and sisters, and friends, not neighbors. The same way we are supposed to turn neighbors into brothers and sisters, there are the words I quoted above, how to treat them like publicans.

Just like St. Mark of Ephesus did.

Now, if you excuse me, I don't think I have anything more to say.
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« Reply #115 on: October 17, 2008, 12:50:49 PM »

orthodoxlurker, forgive me for my sins.   Cry

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May God forgive us all.   angel
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« Reply #116 on: October 17, 2008, 01:01:49 PM »

orthodoxlurker, forgive me for my sins.   Cry

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May God forgive us all.   angel

May God forgive, and I forgive, though I can't recollect it.

You forgive me, a sinner, too.
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« Reply #117 on: October 17, 2008, 01:13:28 PM »

May God forgive, and I forgive, though I can't recollect it.

The Modern World is just as nasty today as during Christ's time on Earth.  The same grace applies today as yesterday and tomorrow.  As difficult as it is to walk as "Children of Light" we have no choice unless we make a free will decision to give up faith in the name of convenience.

You forgive me, a sinner, too.

My Brother, as an unworthy sinner myself, I forgive you 7,777,777,777,777,777,777,777,777,777 times 777,777,777,777,777.   Wink
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« Reply #118 on: October 18, 2008, 11:54:48 AM »


No argue about the person. But I was speaking about persons' errors/sins.

OK, let's take a look at the passage you're referencing:


15Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

 16But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

 17And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.


Fair enough, except the passage is talking about VERY specific circumstances. It's not a blanket statement that we treat everyone in the world like that. First it assumes the person is a member of the Church. Not only that, but (IMO) it is assuming that this is a person you have a close relationship with. (how else could you talk to him face to face about the problem, unless it's someone you would normally be talking to in private to begin with?) It is not a blanket statement about how we treat EVERYONE in the Church, or even everyone in our local community parish.

Finally that passage certainly has nothing to say about how we treat people outside the Church. (because we wouldn't bring our non Orthodox friends to the Church in such a case)

I've also heard/read this passage is talking about the primitive Church's method of excommunication, but maybe someone with more theological knowledge can give more insight on that. I do not know.

Considering this whole conversation was started by a statement about Roman Catholics and the Pope I don't see how this passage applies to this situation in any way.

Even if what you say is true, we're to treat them "like a publican"...what does that mean? does that mean we not forgive them? Of course not. Because 4 verses later Peter comes to Jesus (right after Jesus told this example) and asked, well, just how many times do I forgive my brother? And Jesus replied, 70 times 7. it kind of puts major limitations on the verse you keep quoting and just what it means.
 
Quote
Also, on orthodoxchristianity.net board, I thought I would find only brothers and sisters, and friends, not neighbors. The same way we are supposed to turn neighbors into brothers and sisters, there are the words I quoted above, how to treat them like publicans.

What do you mean we're to turn our neighbors into brothers? Are you talking about Evangelizing? That's a different topic entirely.

We're to love our neighbor as ourself. There really isn't a distinction between neighbor and brother in the context of judgement, and how we treat them, we are ALL brothers and sisters in humanity. We are all living icons of Christ. Now being a brother in Christ, (fellow members of the Church) is a unique thing as you've pointed out. And in some circumstances the passage above might apply, but proper discernment is also necessary, and I don't think the passage you're talking about is in anyway a blanket statement. But rather, related to very limited and specific cases. And even then, it might not be proper .. . . again look at the story of St. Moses the black I posted above. The monks were doing EXACTLY what you believe that passage to say...they were bringing the sins of their brother to the Church, and yet St. Moses the black came in and turned their understanding of such things right on it's head.


Quote
Now, if you excuse me, I don't think I have anything more to say.

Fair enough. I certainly hope nothing I've said has upset you. If I have offended you, I most certainly deeply apologize. And I truly mean that. I never had any intention upset you or anyone else. I know quite well, how much words on the internet can be misinterprated through no ones fault, and if something I've said, or any tone I've taken as upset you in any way, I deeply apologize and ask your forgiveness. This is why I tried to keep my words to a minimum and hoped to let the Scripture passages and story about St. Moses would speak for themselves. yet if anything I said upset you, I do apologize.

your brother in Christ....

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