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Author Topic: Converting from Catholicism... What do I have to deny?  (Read 2952 times) Average Rating: 0
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ignatius
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« on: September 09, 2008, 12:02:10 PM »

I was talking to my parish priest at the Orthodox Parish and I was informed that I would have to deny certain doctrines and dogmas of the West. Can anyone give me the vows that I must say?
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« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2008, 02:06:59 PM »

In the Slavic tradition which is what OCA falls within there are specific renunciations listed for protestants and others specifically for Catholics. I bleieve that you may find any renunciations required in Hapgood's Orthodox Service Book which is based upon  turn of the Century Russian Practice.

In the Byzantine (Greek/Antiochian) tradition I believe that the saying of the Creed correctly without the Filioque is usually seen as accepting the Orthodox Faith . I don't recall  specific renunciations used with converts from heterodox Christian  churches, except those used by all entering the Orthodox church in which we renounced Satan and all his evil works that are performed when one is made a catechumen. Here is an excerpt from that service:

Then the Priest turns him (her) that is to be baptized to face westward, unclothed, barefoot hands upraised. If the person is a child, the Sponsor holding him (her) faces West. the Priest then says thrice:

Do you renounce Satan, and all his works, and all his worship, and all his angels, and all his pomp?

   Each time the Catechumen (or the Sponsor if the person to be baptized is a child or a foreigner) answers and says:

I do renounce him.

Again the Priest asks him (her) that is to be baptized: (3 times)

Have you renounced Satan?

And the Catechumen or the Sponsor answers (3 times):

I have renounced him.

After the third time, the Priest says:

Then blow and spit upon him.

And this being done, the Priest turns the Catechumen to the East with lowered hands, and repeats the following three times:

Do you join Christ?

The question is answered three times:

I do join Him.

Again the Priest asks three times:

Have you joined Christ?

Catechumen (or Sponsor):

I have joined Him.

Again the Priest asks:

 And do you believe in Him?

Catechumen (or Sponsor):

I believe in Him as King and as God.

After the completion of the Creed.... (service continues)

A complete copy of those vows are available  at www.goarch.org/en/chapel/liturgical_texts/Catechumen.asp


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« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2008, 02:16:48 PM »

I entered the Church from an evangelical sect, and remember just a few minutes prior to my baptism, the priest took me off in the corner and read something to me from a book in Slavonic about renouncing all the heretical doctrines of (name of my specific church). I hadn't been expecting that, and wasn't really braced for this sort of thing, but I remember it happening. I had a bit of trouble doing this on short notice as there were many doctrines of that church which I hadn't seen as heretical.
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« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2008, 03:15:29 PM »

I entered the Church from an evangelical sect, and remember just a few minutes prior to my baptism, the priest took me off in the corner and read something to me from a book in Slavonic about renouncing all the heretical doctrines of (name of my specific church). I hadn't been expecting that, and wasn't really braced for this sort of thing, but I remember it happening. I had a bit of trouble doing this on short notice as there were many doctrines of that church which I hadn't seen as heretical.

Yes this is what my Parish Priest told me would have to happen. What I would like to know is exactly what do I formally deny...  He said there would be several vows I would have to make formally denying certain doctrines of the West. What are they?
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« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2008, 03:33:06 PM »

Yes this is what my Parish Priest told me would have to happen. What I would like to know is exactly what do I formally deny...  He said there would be several vows I would have to make formally denying certain doctrines of the West. What are they?

It depends on what service book your priest uses. If he uses one based on late 19th century Russian texts, then he will likely ask you to renounce:

(1) The filioque.
(2) Papal infallibility and supremacy.
(3) The Immaculate Conception of Mary.

May also include a renunciation of Purgatory, as well as an affirmation of the proper Orthodox doctrines that fall under those three categories. Depends on the printing.

Added note: You'll just have to ask him for a copy of the service he plans to use. Some printings also include a renunciation of the use of unleavened bread, as well as renunciation of "Scholasticism," especially Balaamite understandings of Grace.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2008, 03:42:42 PM by pensateomnia » Logged

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« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2008, 07:37:01 PM »

I was talking to my parish priest at the Orthodox Parish and I was informed that I would have to deny certain doctrines and dogmas of the West. Can anyone give me the vows that I must say?

When I converted from the RCC, I received no such treatment.  I was told just to bone up on Orthodoxy. 
That makes sense, since merely by accepting Orthodoxy I was implicitly denying a number of doctrines and dogmas. 
The hard part was scrapping my pre-dogmatic opinions, which skewed my experience of Orthodoxy.  E.g., the legalism of the RCC and the Fundamentalist hankering for dichotomies are not stricto sensu dogmatic, but they have a serious impact on how one interprets the Orthodox life.
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« Last Edit: September 09, 2008, 11:28:03 PM by DanM » Logged
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« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2008, 08:51:36 PM »

The only renunciation I experienced in my Chrismation service is this (my priest sent it to me in a document ahead of time):

Priest:      Renounce now, with all your heart, all errors, false doctrines, and mistakes of judgment.
Convert:     I do renounce them.
Priest:      Do you desire to be united to the holy Orthodox Church?
Convert:     I desire it with all my heart.
Priest:      How do you believe and worship?

After this I knelt down and said the Creed without the filioque and also made statements regarding the Traditions and ordinances of the church. The experience was far more focused on a positive statement of my current beliefs than a negative renunciation of past beliefs. As was already mentioned, expressing my current beliefs definitely implies a renunciation of past contradictory beliefs.

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« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2008, 11:08:37 PM »

I think just the Filioque, since it's the only thing a council touches on.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2008, 12:06:06 AM by AMM » Logged
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« Reply #8 on: September 10, 2008, 05:32:47 PM »

If the Hapgood is used then I'm rather certain that even protestants must renounce the filioque for obvious reasons.
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« Reply #9 on: September 10, 2008, 08:41:43 PM »

The only renunciation I experienced in my Chrismation service is this (my priest sent it to me in a document ahead of time):

Priest:      Renounce now, with all your heart, all errors, false doctrines, and mistakes of judgment.
Convert:     I do renounce them.
Priest:      Do you desire to be united to the holy Orthodox Church?
Convert:     I desire it with all my heart.
Priest:      How do you believe and worship?

After this I knelt down and said the Creed without the filioque and also made statements regarding the Traditions and ordinances of the church. The experience was far more focused on a positive statement of my current beliefs than a negative renunciation of past beliefs. As was already mentioned, expressing my current beliefs definitely implies a renunciation of past contradictory beliefs.

Bridget


Yes that is exactly what I did, there were no specific denunciations. A lot of it depends on your priest and your particular situation. If say for instance you are converting from the Roman Catholic Church and a number of your Roman Catholic family and friends are going to be in attendance the priest may not ask you to make the Roman Catholic specific denunciations out of concern for your personal life. It could potentially cause conflict that wouldn't be spiritually beneficial to any of the parties involved.

There are so many variables involved the only way to know for sure is to ask your priest.


Yours in Christ
Paisius
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« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2008, 10:52:37 PM »

I came from Roman Catholicism as well, but I never had to formally renounce anything.  I wonder if that was because I renounced everything out loud so often during my catechumenate, in the form of my questions.  There was no doubt that I renounced the filioque, papal infallibility, or the immaculate conception.  The first I'd never understood, and the latter I'd always balked at.  I never declared them errors, but that was implicit.
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« Reply #11 on: September 11, 2008, 12:06:04 AM »

If the Hapgood is used then I'm rather certain that even protestants must renounce the filioque for obvious reasons.
It makes sense, since at least the Episcopalians and Lutherans recite the creed, and include the filioque.
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« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2008, 12:44:43 AM »

The only renunciation I experienced in my Chrismation service is this (my priest sent it to me in a document ahead of time):

Priest:      Renounce now, with all your heart, all errors, false doctrines, and mistakes of judgment.
Convert:     I do renounce them.
Priest:      Do you desire to be united to the holy Orthodox Church?
Convert:     I desire it with all my heart.
Priest:      How do you believe and worship?

After this I knelt down and said the Creed without the filioque and also made statements regarding the Traditions and ordinances of the church. The experience was far more focused on a positive statement of my current beliefs than a negative renunciation of past beliefs. As was already mentioned, expressing my current beliefs definitely implies a renunciation of past contradictory beliefs.

Bridget


Yes that is exactly what I did, there were no specific denunciations. A lot of it depends on your priest and your particular situation. If say for instance you are converting from the Roman Catholic Church and a number of your Roman Catholic family and friends are going to be in attendance the priest may not ask you to make the Roman Catholic specific denunciations out of concern for your personal life. It could potentially cause conflict that wouldn't be spiritually beneficial to any of the parties involved.

There are so many variables involved the only way to know for sure is to ask your priest.


Yours in Christ
Paisius
The priest who chrismated me split the service in two, the renunciation part being done on the day my adament (at the time) Lutheran mother wasn't there.

I was asked to renounce the Lutheran doctrine of the Body and Blood only touching the Eucharist.  I had protested that the Lutherans didn't teach that, but said it out of obedience.  It is just this year, decades later, that I have found out that I should have been taught that as a Lutheran.  I guess I was more Orthodox than I thought all along.
Papal supremacy and infallibility and the related claims for St. Peter are renounced, but not St. Peter. Grin
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« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2008, 02:02:14 AM »

When I spoke to my former Priest he said that I would just have to recite the creed without the filioque. He was a Greek Orthodox Priest so maybe others do things differently.
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« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2008, 09:56:51 AM »

I came from Roman Catholicism as well, but I never had to formally renounce anything.  I wonder if that was because I renounced everything out loud so often during my catechumenate, in the form of my questions.  There was no doubt that I renounced the filioque, papal infallibility, or the immaculate conception.  The first I'd never understood, and the latter I'd always balked at.  I never declared them errors, but that was implicit.

I came from the RCC and didn't have to renounce anything during the service either. 
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« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2008, 05:47:25 PM »

Two of my friends who converted from Catholicism didn't renounce specific heresies, they just renounced all heresies in general and denounced their former religious affiliations as "soul destroying".
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