OrthodoxChristianity.net
July 30, 2014, 03:36:48 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 3 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Patriarch Wants Unity Between Orthodox Churches  (Read 8879 times) Average Rating: 5
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Online Online

Posts: 29,361


« on: October 12, 2008, 02:32:21 AM »

Patriarch wants unity between Orthodox Churches

The spiritual leader of the world's Orthodox Christians is calling for greater unity between the Orthodox Churches.

Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew I says the Orthodox Church often appears as a "federation of Churches" instead of "one unified Church."

The Churches in Moscow and Kiev are locked in a dispute over the creation of an independent Ukrainian church, which Russia opposes.

Bartholomew was addressing Orthodox Church leaders on Friday at the start of a three-day meeting in Istanbul to mark the second millennium since the birth of St. Paul, the apostle.

The Patriarch, who is based in Istanbul, will read out a joint declaration at the end of the gathering Sunday. The church leaders will later travel to sites visited by St. Paul in Turkey and Greece.

There are 250 million Orthodox Christians in the world.

________________________

It was the "federation of Churches" part that caught my attention. The entire address can be read at this location, but here's part of it:

Quote
Despite this, we must admit in all honesty that sometimes we present an image of incomplete unity, as if we were not one Church, but rather a confederation or a federation of churches. This is largely a result of the institution of autocephaly, which characterizes the structure of the Orthodox Church. As is known, this institution dates back to the early Church, when the so-called "Pentarchy" of the ancient Apostolic Sees and Churches -- namely, of Rome, Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem -- was still valid. The communion or "symphony" of these Sees expressed the unity of the universal Church in the oikoumene. This Pentarchy was severed after the tragic schism of 1054AD between Rome and Constantinople originally, and afterward between Rome and the other Patriarchates. To the four Orthodox Patriarchates that remained after the Schism, from the middle of the second millennium to this day, other autocephalous Churches were added until we have the prevailing organization of the Orthodox Church throughout the world today.

Yet, while the original system of Pentarchy emanated from respect for the apostolicity and particularity of the traditions of these ancient Patriarchates, the autocephaly of later Churches grew out of respect for the cultural identity of nations. Moreover, the overall system of autocephaly was encroached in recent years, through secular influences, by the spirit of ethnophyletism or, still worse, of state nationalism, to the degree that the basis for autocephaly now became the local secular nation, whose boundaries, as we all know, do not remain stable but depend on historical circumstance. So we have reached the perception that Orthodoxy comprises a federation of national Churches, frequently attributing priority to national interests in their relationship with one another. In light of this image, which somewhat recalls the situation in Corinth when the first letter to the Corinthians was written, the Apostle Paul would ask: has Orthodoxy been divided? This question is also posed by many observers of Orthodox affairs in our times.

Of course, the response commonly proffered to this question is that, despite administrational division, Orthodoxy remains united in faith, the Sacraments, etc. But is this sufficient? When before non-Orthodox we sometimes appear divided in theological dialogues and elsewhere; when we are unable to proceed to the realization of the long-heralded Holy and Great Council of the Orthodox Church; when we lack a unified voice on contemporary issues and, instead, convoke bilateral dialogues with non-Orthodox on these issues; when we fail to constitute a single Orthodox Church in the so-called Diaspora in accordance with the ecclesiological and canonical principles of our Church; how can we avoid the image of division in Orthodoxy, especially on the basis of non-theological, secular criteria?

We need, then, greater unity in order to appear to those outside not as a federation of Churches but as one unified Church. Through the centuries, and especially after the Schism, when the Church of Rome ceased to be in communion with the Orthodox, this Throne was called -- according to canonical order -- to serve the unity of the Orthodox Church as its first Throne. And it fulfilled this responsibility through the ages by convoking an entire series of Panorthodox Councils on crucial ecclesiastical matters, always prepared, whenever duly approached, to render its assistance and support to troubled Orthodox Churches. In this way, a canonical order was created and, accordingly, the coordinating role of this Patriarchate guaranteed the unity of the Orthodox Church, without in the least damaging or diminishing the independence of the local autocephalous Churches by any interference in their internal affairs. This, in any case, is the healthy significance of the institution of autocephaly: while it assures the self-governance of each Church with regard to its internal life and organization, on matters affecting the entire Orthodox Church and its relations with those outside, each autocephalous Church does not act alone but in coordination with the rest of the Orthodox Churches. If this coordination either disappears or diminishes, then autocephaly becomes "autocephalism" (or radical independence), namely a factor of division rather than unity for the Orthodox Church.

Therefore, dearly beloved brothers in the Lord, we are called to contribute in every possible way to the unity of the Orthodox Church, transcending every temptation of regionalism or nationalism so that we may act as a unified Church, as one canonically structured body. We do not, as during Byzantine times, have at our disposal a state factor that guaranteed -- and sometimes even imposed -- our unity. Nor does our ecclesiology permit any centralized authority that is able to impose unity from above. Our unity depends on our conscience. The sense of need and duty that we constitute a single canonical structure and body, one Church, is sufficient to guarantee our unity, without any external intervention...
« Last Edit: October 12, 2008, 02:47:41 AM by Asteriktos » Logged

There are many foolish priests out there.
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 19,973


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2008, 06:49:34 AM »

It is an interesting address, from what little I've read of it.
Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,124



« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2008, 10:16:23 AM »

Let's see some followup.

Btw, does anyone know if any of the Estonians showed up?  I know that the PoM was going to insist that if the EP kept bringing his autonomous Churches with everywhere, the PoM was going to insist on there's, and on the presence of the OCA.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 19,973


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2008, 03:00:29 PM »

Let's see some followup.

Agreed

Btw, does anyone know if any of the Estonians showed up?  I know that the PoM was going to insist that if the EP kept bringing his autonomous Churches with everywhere, the PoM was going to insist on there's, and on the presence of the OCA.

I think the Estonians (EP) were indeed there.
Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2008, 03:12:19 PM »

On mospat.ru there's written that MP's Estonian Metropolitan arrived yesterday accompanied by Patriarch Alexy.

BTW Is there an OCA's delegation?
« Last Edit: October 12, 2008, 03:14:41 PM by mike » Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
username!
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,027



« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2008, 03:33:40 PM »

On mospat.ru there's written that MP's Estonian Metropolitan arrived yesterday accompanied by Patriarch Alexy.

BTW Is there an OCA's delegation?

No I don't believe there was a representative/delegation from the OCA. 
Logged

SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,011


WWW
« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2008, 03:50:20 PM »

No I don't believe there was a representative/delegation from the OCA. 

There was no mention on the OCA website of any of Her Hierarchs traveling to Istanbul.  Who knows if the OCA was even invited by the EP?   Huh
Logged
orthodoxlurker
Supporter & Defender of Fr Ambrose (Irish Hermit) - banned
Warned
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian - NOT a phanariote
Jurisdiction: Serbian Patriarchate under siege
Posts: 1,372


al-Saabir yaraa al-Hurriyah


« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2008, 04:00:14 PM »

Patriarch wants unity between Orthodox Churches

The spiritual leader of the world's Orthodox Christians is calling for ...

Why do they attribute so often this title to EP nobody ever awarded him?
Logged

Curse the Pope, for he is the root and cause of these disasters! - St. Nektarios of Aegina

You don't get to circumvent your post moderation by calling out the moderators in your signature. ~Veniamin, Global Moderator
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,011


WWW
« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2008, 04:05:30 PM »

Why do they attribute so often this title to EP nobody ever awarded him?

FWIW, the first among equals (primus inter pares) honor makes the EP a legacy equivalent to the Pope of Rome when it comes to Orthodox/Catholic relations.  When the Great Schism occurred, What became Moscow was nowhere near a Patriarchate.
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,124



« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2008, 04:31:29 PM »

On mospat.ru there's written that MP's Estonian Metropolitan arrived yesterday accompanied by Patriarch Alexy.

BTW Is there an OCA's delegation?

The OCA is widowed, if not orphaned, and headless, if not rudderless.  And I believe it is in the midst of its own council now.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,124



« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2008, 04:33:01 PM »

Patriarch wants unity between Orthodox Churches

The spiritual leader of the world's Orthodox Christians is calling for ...

Why do they attribute so often this title to EP nobody ever awarded him?

It fits into their image of the EP as the Orthodox Pope (who is in Alexandria, btw).

Why do they attribute so often this title to EP nobody ever awarded him?

FWIW, the first among equals (primus inter pares) honor makes the EP a legacy equivalent to the Pope of Rome when it comes to Orthodox/Catholic relations.

It's an Pan-Orthodox meeting. As far as I know, the Vatican wasn't invited.

Quote
  When the Great Schism occurred, What became Moscow was nowhere near a Patriarchate.

Moscow became autocephalous when the Roman emperor forced the EP to kiss the Vatican's slipper at Florence.  By then Kiev/Moscow was the largest Church already. 

« Last Edit: October 12, 2008, 04:38:30 PM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
tuesdayschild
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 966



« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2008, 04:50:19 PM »

The OCA.... And I believe it is in the midst of its own council now.

Next month.
Logged
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,011


WWW
« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2008, 05:11:37 PM »

I was responding to Reply #7.  Why would you add words saying that the Vatican wasn't invited?   Huh

It's an Pan-Orthodox meeting. As far as I know, the Vatican wasn't invited.

Stick to the topic....    Cool
Logged
orthodoxlurker
Supporter & Defender of Fr Ambrose (Irish Hermit) - banned
Warned
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian - NOT a phanariote
Jurisdiction: Serbian Patriarchate under siege
Posts: 1,372


al-Saabir yaraa al-Hurriyah


« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2008, 05:35:14 PM »

Why do they attribute so often this title to EP nobody ever awarded him?

FWIW, the first among equals (primus inter pares) honor makes the EP a legacy equivalent to the Pope of Rome when it comes to Orthodox/Catholic relations.  When the Great Schism occurred, What became Moscow was nowhere near a Patriarchate.

FWIW, that's your private interpretation, and perhaps even interpretation of some (many?) at the position in certain Patriarchate, but simply have no basis, and...you know what you can do with it, don't you?
Logged

Curse the Pope, for he is the root and cause of these disasters! - St. Nektarios of Aegina

You don't get to circumvent your post moderation by calling out the moderators in your signature. ~Veniamin, Global Moderator
orthodoxlurker
Supporter & Defender of Fr Ambrose (Irish Hermit) - banned
Warned
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian - NOT a phanariote
Jurisdiction: Serbian Patriarchate under siege
Posts: 1,372


al-Saabir yaraa al-Hurriyah


« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2008, 05:39:21 PM »

...

It was the "federation of Churches" part that caught my attention. The entire address can be read at this location, but here's part of it:

Quote
...Through the centuries, and especially after the Schism, when the Church of Rome ceased to be in communion with the Orthodox, this Throne was called -- according to canonical order -- to serve the unity of the Orthodox Church as its first Throne. ...

This is false statement.

It wasn't the Throne of EP that "served the unity".

And there was no such a generally accepted cannon. HH Bartholomew might wish to elevate Endimousa Synod to that rank, but they aren't.
Logged

Curse the Pope, for he is the root and cause of these disasters! - St. Nektarios of Aegina

You don't get to circumvent your post moderation by calling out the moderators in your signature. ~Veniamin, Global Moderator
arimethea
Getting too old for this
Section Moderator
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Antioch
Posts: 2,968


Does anyone really care what you think?


« Reply #15 on: October 12, 2008, 06:08:32 PM »

Be mindful that what the EP is talking about in his speech has nothing to do with Americas or Australia. The reference to the diaspora is talking about specific situations that have arisen in Europe, Istanbul and Dubai. This speech has more to do with bringing Greece back under Constantinople then anything else.

My personal opinion is that there is a want to redraw and reassign the Patriarchates and thus increase the territories of Constantinople while diminishing the territories of Moscow. In the end I think this might actually be a good thing by finally make a strong statement against the heresy of ethnophyletism. Ultimately this could finally settle the issue of cross jurisdiction that exist in the New World.
Logged

Joseph
orthodoxlurker
Supporter & Defender of Fr Ambrose (Irish Hermit) - banned
Warned
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian - NOT a phanariote
Jurisdiction: Serbian Patriarchate under siege
Posts: 1,372


al-Saabir yaraa al-Hurriyah


« Reply #16 on: October 12, 2008, 06:23:42 PM »

... by finally make a strong statement against the heresy of ethnophyletism. Ultimately this could finally settle the issue of cross jurisdiction that exist in the New World.

And, of course, EP is the right one to condemn etnophyletism.
Logged

Curse the Pope, for he is the root and cause of these disasters! - St. Nektarios of Aegina

You don't get to circumvent your post moderation by calling out the moderators in your signature. ~Veniamin, Global Moderator
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,011


WWW
« Reply #17 on: October 12, 2008, 06:48:59 PM »

FWIW, that's your private interpretation, and perhaps even interpretation of some (many?) at the position in certain Patriarchate, but simply have no basis, and...you know what you can do with it, don't you?

You say tomato, I say tomahto.
You say potato, I say potahto.

Before 1054, Rome and Constantinople were joint primus inter pares.
After 1054, Constantinople remained primus inter pares.

You're going to tell ME what I can do with known History.  What are YOU doing about it?   Huh
Logged
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #18 on: October 12, 2008, 06:55:32 PM »

FWIW, that's your private interpretation, and perhaps even interpretation of some (many?) at the position in certain Patriarchate, but simply have no basis, and...you know what you can do with it, don't you?


orthodoxlurker,
This is the Public Forum. While things can and do get heated, there is still an expectation that posters will remain civil and respectful- this is mentioned in two of the forum rules.
George
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,011


WWW
« Reply #19 on: October 12, 2008, 07:13:39 PM »

Be mindful that what the EP is talking about in his speech has nothing to do with Americas or Australia. The reference to the diaspora is talking about specific situations that have arisen in Europe, Istanbul and Dubai.

Dubai?  Sure, I knew there were Orthodox there and I thought the Patriarch of Antioch had responsibility over the Middle East....
Logged
Orthodoc
Supporter & Defender Of Orthodoxy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 2,526

Those who ignore history tend to repeat it.


« Reply #20 on: October 12, 2008, 07:33:52 PM »

Why do they attribute so often this title to EP nobody ever awarded him?

FWIW, the first among equals (primus inter pares) honor makes the EP a legacy equivalent to the Pope of Rome when it comes to Orthodox/Catholic relations.  When the Great Schism occurred, What became Moscow was nowhere near a Patriarchate.

'First AMONGST EQUALS' and 'Spiritual Leader of the world's Orthodox' are two different things.  The EP is not now, nor will he ever be the SPIRITUAL LEADER of world Orthodoxy!

Orthodoc
Logged

Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.
Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.
And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.
Orthodoc
Supporter & Defender Of Orthodoxy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 2,526

Those who ignore history tend to repeat it.


« Reply #21 on: October 12, 2008, 07:36:10 PM »

... by finally make a strong statement against the heresy of ethnophyletism. Ultimately this could finally settle the issue of cross jurisdiction that exist in the New World.

And, of course, EP is the right one to condemn etnophyletism.

Ya got that right!  It's like the pot calling the kettle black!

Orthodoc
Logged

Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.
Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.
And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,124



« Reply #22 on: October 12, 2008, 07:40:50 PM »

I was responding to Reply #7.  Why would you add words saying that the Vatican wasn't invited?   Huh

I was responding to Reply #8
Why do they attribute so often this title to EP nobody ever awarded him?

FWIW, the first among equals (primus inter pares) honor makes the EP a legacy equivalent to the Pope of Rome when it comes to Orthodox/Catholic relations.  When the Great Schism occurred, What became Moscow was nowhere near a Patriarchate.

Perhaps putting Rome so close to Orthodox/Catholic relations, I misread the later as Orthodox-Catholic (i.e. Vatican) relations, instead of Orthodox Catholic (i.e. Universal, Pan-Orthodox) relations.  If so, I apologize.

It's an Pan-Orthodox meeting. As far as I know, the Vatican wasn't invited.

Stick to the topic....    Cool
[/quote]

Ravenna is making that difficult.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,124



« Reply #23 on: October 12, 2008, 07:44:53 PM »

...

It was the "federation of Churches" part that caught my attention. The entire address can be read at this location, but here's part of it:

Quote
...Through the centuries, and especially after the Schism, when the Church of Rome ceased to be in communion with the Orthodox, this Throne was called -- according to canonical order -- to serve the unity of the Orthodox Church as its first Throne. ...

This is false statement.

It wasn't the Throne of EP that "served the unity".

And there was no such a generally accepted cannon. HH Bartholomew might wish to elevate Endimousa Synod to that rank, but they aren't.

Well, it is the Mother Church of the European Churches, and has subdued the Patriarchates of Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem to a degree Rome, with its Latinization, can only envy.

New Rome needs to learn that her daughters have grown up, and her older sisters aren't going to be bullied as in the past.  Then she can serve as a means of unity.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,124



« Reply #24 on: October 12, 2008, 07:49:43 PM »

Be mindful that what the EP is talking about in his speech has nothing to do with Americas or Australia. The reference to the diaspora is talking about specific situations that have arisen in Europe, Istanbul and Dubai. This speech has more to do with bringing Greece back under Constantinople then anything else.

My personal opinion is that there is a want to redraw and reassign the Patriarchates and thus increase the territories of Constantinople while diminishing the territories of Moscow. In the end I think this might actually be a good thing by finally make a strong statement against the heresy of ethnophyletism. Ultimately this could finally settle the issue of cross jurisdiction that exist in the New World.

Or exaserbate it.

If it is as you are telling, it bodes ill for Holy Orthodoxy.  What are we going to do next, let the Vatican make a strong statemetn against the heresy of ultramontanism?

What problems are in Dubai?  I'm interested, as I might be going there next month, and spend a considerable amount of time there.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
arimethea
Getting too old for this
Section Moderator
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Antioch
Posts: 2,968


Does anyone really care what you think?


« Reply #25 on: October 12, 2008, 08:39:44 PM »

Be mindful that what the EP is talking about in his speech has nothing to do with Americas or Australia. The reference to the diaspora is talking about specific situations that have arisen in Europe, Istanbul and Dubai.

Dubai?  Sure, I knew there were Orthodox there and I thought the Patriarch of Antioch had responsibility over the Middle East....
That is the problem, it is accepted that the Patriarch of Antioch is responsible over the entire Middle East, except for the City of Jerusalem. Jerusalem has been expanding their territory, with the help of local governments, for the past 60 years. The government of Dubai is helping cause confusion by giving land for the establishment of churches to Jerusalem, Antioch, Russian, Romania, Georgian and Bulgaria. These churches, when built, will be all next to each other. Right now most of the priest in Dubai are there without the permission of the Metropolitan Constantine, who is the Archbishop of Babylon and whose diocese covers all the Gulf States. I should also say that some of the priest are there with permission and serve their ethnic communities with permission and are treated as priest of the archdiocese. 
Logged

Joseph
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,011


WWW
« Reply #26 on: October 12, 2008, 08:51:05 PM »

Perhaps putting Rome so close to Orthodox/Catholic relations, I misread the later as Orthodox-Catholic (i.e. Vatican) relations, instead of Orthodox Catholic (i.e. Universal, Pan-Orthodox) relations.  If so, I apologize.

Last time I checked, Rome was still on the map and the Roman Catholic Pope was also the Bishop of Rome.  Forgive me if my semanics confused you for I was referring to today's Orthodox/Catholic relations where Catholic = Roman Catholicism; Although, I admit that the bolded text is applicable as well.  Anyway, apology accepted.   Smiley

Ravenna is making that difficult.

Life goes on....
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,124



« Reply #27 on: October 12, 2008, 09:53:36 PM »

Be mindful that what the EP is talking about in his speech has nothing to do with Americas or Australia. The reference to the diaspora is talking about specific situations that have arisen in Europe, Istanbul and Dubai.

Dubai?  Sure, I knew there were Orthodox there and I thought the Patriarch of Antioch had responsibility over the Middle East....
That is the problem, it is accepted that the Patriarch of Antioch is responsible over the entire Middle East, except for the City of Jerusalem. Jerusalem has been expanding their territory, with the help of local governments, for the past 60 years. The government of Dubai is helping cause confusion by giving land for the establishment of churches to Jerusalem, Antioch, Russian, Romania, Georgian and Bulgaria. These churches, when built, will be all next to each other. Right now most of the priest in Dubai are there without the permission of the Metropolitan Constantine, who is the Archbishop of Babylon and whose diocese covers all the Gulf States. I should also say that some of the priest are there with permission and serve their ethnic communities with permission and are treated as priest of the archdiocese. 

Ordinarily I would be scandalized, but a Muslim goverment, giving land for, let alone allowing, the building of Churches is always a source of rejoicing.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
arimethea
Getting too old for this
Section Moderator
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Antioch
Posts: 2,968


Does anyone really care what you think?


« Reply #28 on: October 12, 2008, 10:19:27 PM »

Be mindful that what the EP is talking about in his speech has nothing to do with Americas or Australia. The reference to the diaspora is talking about specific situations that have arisen in Europe, Istanbul and Dubai.

Dubai?  Sure, I knew there were Orthodox there and I thought the Patriarch of Antioch had responsibility over the Middle East....
That is the problem, it is accepted that the Patriarch of Antioch is responsible over the entire Middle East, except for the City of Jerusalem. Jerusalem has been expanding their territory, with the help of local governments, for the past 60 years. The government of Dubai is helping cause confusion by giving land for the establishment of churches to Jerusalem, Antioch, Russian, Romania, Georgian and Bulgaria. These churches, when built, will be all next to each other. Right now most of the priest in Dubai are there without the permission of the Metropolitan Constantine, who is the Archbishop of Babylon and whose diocese covers all the Gulf States. I should also say that some of the priest are there with permission and serve their ethnic communities with permission and are treated as priest of the archdiocese. 

Ordinarily I would be scandalized, but a Muslim goverment, giving land for, let alone allowing, the building of Churches is always a source of rejoicing.
The people from foreign lands are needed to make the economy in the UAE work and they do everything possible to make these expatriates feel welcome including allowing alcohol sales and religious tolerance. It is only tolerance and they control it by setting aside the land and building the church structure. In Dubai all of the Christian churches will be in one large block.

A bigger stink hasn't been made about this for two reasons. First Met. Constantine's health is not good and secondly most of these churches have not been built yet and it would be in the best interest of the Church to have as many church building built while they can be built.
Logged

Joseph
Heracleides
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Patriarch of Jerusalem
Posts: 390


Kona-Kai


« Reply #29 on: October 12, 2008, 11:43:39 PM »

Why do they attribute so often this title to EP nobody ever awarded him?

FWIW, the first among equals (primus inter pares) honor makes the EP a legacy equivalent to the Pope of Rome when it comes to Orthodox/Catholic relations.  When the Great Schism occurred, What became Moscow was nowhere near a Patriarchate.

'First AMONGST EQUALS' and 'Spiritual Leader of the world's Orthodox' are two different things.  The EP is not now, nor will he ever be the SPIRITUAL LEADER of world Orthodoxy!

Orthodoc

Ditto on that!
Logged

"And having found Heracleides there again, we instructed him to proclaim the Gospel of God..."  ~Acts of Barnabas
orthodoxlurker
Supporter & Defender of Fr Ambrose (Irish Hermit) - banned
Warned
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian - NOT a phanariote
Jurisdiction: Serbian Patriarchate under siege
Posts: 1,372


al-Saabir yaraa al-Hurriyah


« Reply #30 on: October 13, 2008, 02:35:19 AM »

... What are YOU doing about it?   Huh

I'm going to remember that THE ONLY power EP does have in addition to other bishops is to hear appeals of a clergy against a decision of a local council, and to annul the decision once, but not to reverse it. That's according to the 2nd Cannon of 6th council, that canonized Sardica.

That's what I'm going to do.
Logged

Curse the Pope, for he is the root and cause of these disasters! - St. Nektarios of Aegina

You don't get to circumvent your post moderation by calling out the moderators in your signature. ~Veniamin, Global Moderator
orthodoxlurker
Supporter & Defender of Fr Ambrose (Irish Hermit) - banned
Warned
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian - NOT a phanariote
Jurisdiction: Serbian Patriarchate under siege
Posts: 1,372


al-Saabir yaraa al-Hurriyah


« Reply #31 on: October 13, 2008, 02:54:20 AM »

...]

Well, it is the Mother Church of the European Churches, and has subdued the Patriarchates of Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem to a degree Rome, with its Latinization, can only envy.

...

Yes, preparations were systematic and long-termed.

But we are relying on Holy Spirit.
Logged

Curse the Pope, for he is the root and cause of these disasters! - St. Nektarios of Aegina

You don't get to circumvent your post moderation by calling out the moderators in your signature. ~Veniamin, Global Moderator
orthodoxlurker
Supporter & Defender of Fr Ambrose (Irish Hermit) - banned
Warned
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian - NOT a phanariote
Jurisdiction: Serbian Patriarchate under siege
Posts: 1,372


al-Saabir yaraa al-Hurriyah


« Reply #32 on: October 13, 2008, 03:03:58 AM »

...
'First AMONGST EQUALS' and 'Spiritual Leader of the world's Orthodox' are two different things.  The EP is not now, nor will he ever be the SPIRITUAL LEADER of world Orthodoxy!

Orthodoc

Ditto on that!

Yet another ditto.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2008, 03:05:58 AM by orthodoxlurker » Logged

Curse the Pope, for he is the root and cause of these disasters! - St. Nektarios of Aegina

You don't get to circumvent your post moderation by calling out the moderators in your signature. ~Veniamin, Global Moderator
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #33 on: October 13, 2008, 05:17:19 AM »

Does anyone besides me find it absolutely bizarre that a thread about the Ecumenical Patriarch calling for greater unity in the Church -something which we pray for at every Liturgy- should spur the kind of responses one finds in this thread? I find it rather telling about some people's Jungian Shadows- we often accuse others of things in ourselves we wish to deny.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2008, 05:17:46 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Theognosis
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate
Posts: 248


« Reply #34 on: October 13, 2008, 05:40:14 AM »

Does anyone besides me find it absolutely bizarre that a thread about the Ecumenical Patriarch calling for greater unity in the Church -something which we pray for at every Liturgy- should spur the kind of responses one finds in this thread?

Yes, it is bizarre.

Quote
I find it rather telling about some people's Jungian Shadows- we often accuse others of things in ourselves we wish to deny

Lord have mercy.
Logged
Heracleides
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Patriarch of Jerusalem
Posts: 390


Kona-Kai


« Reply #35 on: October 13, 2008, 08:21:35 AM »

Does anyone besides me find it absolutely bizarre that a thread about the Ecumenical Patriarch calling for greater unity in the Church -something which we pray for at every Liturgy- should spur the kind of responses one finds in this thread? I find it rather telling about some people's Jungian Shadows- we often accuse others of things in ourselves we wish to deny.

Perhaps if your Patriarch simply showed as much charity, respect  and humility to his equals WITHIN the Church as he does towards his pals in Rome OUTSIDE the Church he would not even need to raise this subject.

I myself find it bizarre that so far in this thread it is only those looking to the EP for leadership that are amazed to find others not under his dubious guidance are not nearly as enamoured of him as they themselves  are.  Roll Eyes
Logged

"And having found Heracleides there again, we instructed him to proclaim the Gospel of God..."  ~Acts of Barnabas
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #36 on: October 13, 2008, 08:29:16 AM »

Perhaps if your Patriarch simply showed as much charity, respect  and humility to his equals WITHIN the Church as he does towards his pals in Rome OUTSIDE the Church he would not even need to raise this subject.

I myself find it bizarre that so far in this thread it is only those looking to the EP for leadership that are amazed to find others not under his dubious guidance are not nearly as enamoured of him as they themselves  are.  Roll Eyes

What has any of this to do with the topic of this thread?
On second thoughts, forget it. It's obviously pointless trying to talk to you.
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Heracleides
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Patriarch of Jerusalem
Posts: 390


Kona-Kai


« Reply #37 on: October 13, 2008, 08:32:10 AM »

Perhaps if your Patriarch simply showed as much charity, respect  and humility to his equals WITHIN the Church as he does towards his pals in Rome OUTSIDE the Church he would not even need to raise this subject.

I myself find it bizarre that so far in this thread it is only those looking to the EP for leadership that are amazed to find others not under his dubious guidance are not nearly as enamoured of him as they themselves  are.  Roll Eyes

What has any of this to do with the topic of this thread?
On second thoughts, forget it. It's obviously pointless trying to talk to you.

It has about as much relevancy as your initial post in this thread did and to which I responded.  Roll Eyes

Always so helpful not to mention insightful when you contribute Ozzy.  Wink
Logged

"And having found Heracleides there again, we instructed him to proclaim the Gospel of God..."  ~Acts of Barnabas
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #38 on: October 13, 2008, 08:35:22 AM »

Please stay on topic.
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Heracleides
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Patriarch of Jerusalem
Posts: 390


Kona-Kai


« Reply #39 on: October 13, 2008, 08:40:59 AM »

Please stay on topic.


Yes, please do that.  Roll Eyes
Logged

"And having found Heracleides there again, we instructed him to proclaim the Gospel of God..."  ~Acts of Barnabas
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 19,973


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #40 on: October 13, 2008, 05:02:57 PM »

'First AMONGST EQUALS' and 'Spiritual Leader of the world's Orthodox' are two different things.

True for us Orthodox; maybe not so for outsiders.

The EP is not now, nor will he ever be the SPIRITUAL LEADER of world Orthodoxy!

"Not now" I won't debate.
But "nor will he ever be" - really?  We pray for secular leaders, that they lead us well; why not do the same for Church leaders that we don't agree with?
If you had said "The EP is certainly NOT the SPIRITUAL LEADER of world Orthodoxy," that would be a bit more, say, reasonable, rather than "never will be."
Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
orthodoxlurker
Supporter & Defender of Fr Ambrose (Irish Hermit) - banned
Warned
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian - NOT a phanariote
Jurisdiction: Serbian Patriarchate under siege
Posts: 1,372


al-Saabir yaraa al-Hurriyah


« Reply #41 on: October 13, 2008, 05:19:53 PM »

'First AMONGST EQUALS' and 'Spiritual Leader of the world's Orthodox' are two different things.

True for us Orthodox; maybe not so for outsiders.

The EP is not now, nor will he ever be the SPIRITUAL LEADER of world Orthodoxy!

"Not now" I won't debate.
But "nor will he ever be" - really?

Really.

Quote
We pray for secular leaders, that they lead us well; why not do the same for Church leaders that we don't agree with?
If you had said "The EP is certainly NOT the SPIRITUAL LEADER of world Orthodoxy," that would be a bit more, say, reasonable, rather than "never will be."

Because no Patriarch/Archbishop/Metropolitan is spiritual Father to all faithfull, neither a bishop to all in his diocese.
Logged

Curse the Pope, for he is the root and cause of these disasters! - St. Nektarios of Aegina

You don't get to circumvent your post moderation by calling out the moderators in your signature. ~Veniamin, Global Moderator
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,124



« Reply #42 on: October 13, 2008, 05:37:38 PM »

Does anyone besides me find it absolutely bizarre that a thread about the Ecumenical Patriarch calling for greater unity in the Church -something which we pray for at every Liturgy- should spur the kind of responses one finds in this thread? I find it rather telling about some people's Jungian Shadows- we often accuse others of things in ourselves we wish to deny.

Perhaps if your Patriarch simply showed as much charity, respect  and humility to his equals WITHIN the Church as he does towards his pals in Rome OUTSIDE the Church he would not even need to raise this subject.

I myself find it bizarre that so far in this thread it is only those looking to the EP for leadership that are amazed to find others not under his dubious guidance are not nearly as enamoured of him as they themselves  are.  Roll Eyes
You have hit the nail on the head.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 19,973


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #43 on: October 13, 2008, 06:07:37 PM »

Perhaps if your Patriarch simply showed as much charity, respect  and humility to his equals WITHIN the Church as he does towards his pals in Rome OUTSIDE the Church he would not even need to raise this subject.

Brothers do tend to fight more ferociously with one another than with outsiders.  While it's not an excuse, it certainly does pertain to this situation.  And while they do tend to fight more, they are the only ones who sit together for dinner and say their evening prayers together.

I myself find it bizarre that so far in this thread it is only those looking to the EP for leadership that are amazed to find others not under his dubious guidance are not nearly as enamoured of him as they themselves  are.  Roll Eyes

I don't know about "enamored," but whether "enamored" or not it's one thing to be critical, and another thing to wish ill.  Unfortunately it seems that people are more willing to do the latter to the EP, rather than the former.

I continue to repeat my objection that I've raised in other places, too - this time, in reference to "not under his dubious guidance."  You impugn too much power upon the Patriarch and ascribe too much influence. On the big decisions, he actually does have to get an entire synod of people who, contrary to popular opinion, don't agree with him at all times (I know people who work/worked at the Patriarchate who've told me stories of this); and he doesn't make any of the day-to-day decisions that affect life here in the jurisdictions connected to his see.  If you want to object to how things are run over here, it would be more appropriate to direct your comments to those leading here (bishops, clergy, lay leaders, etc.), rather than to the EP.

On an individual level, it is a bit troubling just to see vitriol directed at anyone - Orthodox or not, Patriarch or not.  It seems that we tend to feed into the "mob mentality" at times, whether it be anti-Catholic, anti-EP, anti-Old Calendar, anti-New Calendar, etc.  From what I've seen on the forum over the last 3-5 days, it's as if the Purple Demons of lent have forgotten what month it is, and have decided to tempt us all to become more angry and hateful than we really are.  I pray this is the case, and we all haven't just become more irritable.
Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
Basil 320
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,990



« Reply #44 on: October 13, 2008, 10:59:28 PM »

Let's look at the goodness in this pronouncement, a collaborative effort among the primates, all of them (or their representatives) it appears, of the "Holy Churches of God."

They must meet regularly to address "matters of common concern" and speak with one voice, to this, more than ever, fallen world.  Patriarch Alexie's attendance shows a growth in his administrative maturity, placing the needs of the greater Church, above his administrative disputes with Patriarch Bartholomew.

I am thankful to God for this initiative and its appearant success.  This assembly demonstates that the ancient design for Church order, can work in this day.   Conciliarity worked.  Let's stay away from disputing the role of the "First Throne" and the "First Among Equals."  This Church must have a "coordinator," a point of reference, that enables all the sister churches to address matters, such as those outlined in His All Holiness' welcoming address.  Let's keep this process progressing, and not allow pettiness to keep this One, True, Faith, marginalized from the platforms of world discussion.  The world is so in need of the message of Orthodoxy.
Logged

"...Strengthen the Orthodox Community..."
Tags:
Pages: 1 2 3 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.17 seconds with 73 queries.