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Author Topic: Patriarch Wants Unity Between Orthodox Churches  (Read 9172 times) Average Rating: 5
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Justin Kissel
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« on: October 12, 2008, 02:32:21 AM »

Patriarch wants unity between Orthodox Churches

The spiritual leader of the world's Orthodox Christians is calling for greater unity between the Orthodox Churches.

Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew I says the Orthodox Church often appears as a "federation of Churches" instead of "one unified Church."

The Churches in Moscow and Kiev are locked in a dispute over the creation of an independent Ukrainian church, which Russia opposes.

Bartholomew was addressing Orthodox Church leaders on Friday at the start of a three-day meeting in Istanbul to mark the second millennium since the birth of St. Paul, the apostle.

The Patriarch, who is based in Istanbul, will read out a joint declaration at the end of the gathering Sunday. The church leaders will later travel to sites visited by St. Paul in Turkey and Greece.

There are 250 million Orthodox Christians in the world.

________________________

It was the "federation of Churches" part that caught my attention. The entire address can be read at this location, but here's part of it:

Quote
Despite this, we must admit in all honesty that sometimes we present an image of incomplete unity, as if we were not one Church, but rather a confederation or a federation of churches. This is largely a result of the institution of autocephaly, which characterizes the structure of the Orthodox Church. As is known, this institution dates back to the early Church, when the so-called "Pentarchy" of the ancient Apostolic Sees and Churches -- namely, of Rome, Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem -- was still valid. The communion or "symphony" of these Sees expressed the unity of the universal Church in the oikoumene. This Pentarchy was severed after the tragic schism of 1054AD between Rome and Constantinople originally, and afterward between Rome and the other Patriarchates. To the four Orthodox Patriarchates that remained after the Schism, from the middle of the second millennium to this day, other autocephalous Churches were added until we have the prevailing organization of the Orthodox Church throughout the world today.

Yet, while the original system of Pentarchy emanated from respect for the apostolicity and particularity of the traditions of these ancient Patriarchates, the autocephaly of later Churches grew out of respect for the cultural identity of nations. Moreover, the overall system of autocephaly was encroached in recent years, through secular influences, by the spirit of ethnophyletism or, still worse, of state nationalism, to the degree that the basis for autocephaly now became the local secular nation, whose boundaries, as we all know, do not remain stable but depend on historical circumstance. So we have reached the perception that Orthodoxy comprises a federation of national Churches, frequently attributing priority to national interests in their relationship with one another. In light of this image, which somewhat recalls the situation in Corinth when the first letter to the Corinthians was written, the Apostle Paul would ask: has Orthodoxy been divided? This question is also posed by many observers of Orthodox affairs in our times.

Of course, the response commonly proffered to this question is that, despite administrational division, Orthodoxy remains united in faith, the Sacraments, etc. But is this sufficient? When before non-Orthodox we sometimes appear divided in theological dialogues and elsewhere; when we are unable to proceed to the realization of the long-heralded Holy and Great Council of the Orthodox Church; when we lack a unified voice on contemporary issues and, instead, convoke bilateral dialogues with non-Orthodox on these issues; when we fail to constitute a single Orthodox Church in the so-called Diaspora in accordance with the ecclesiological and canonical principles of our Church; how can we avoid the image of division in Orthodoxy, especially on the basis of non-theological, secular criteria?

We need, then, greater unity in order to appear to those outside not as a federation of Churches but as one unified Church. Through the centuries, and especially after the Schism, when the Church of Rome ceased to be in communion with the Orthodox, this Throne was called -- according to canonical order -- to serve the unity of the Orthodox Church as its first Throne. And it fulfilled this responsibility through the ages by convoking an entire series of Panorthodox Councils on crucial ecclesiastical matters, always prepared, whenever duly approached, to render its assistance and support to troubled Orthodox Churches. In this way, a canonical order was created and, accordingly, the coordinating role of this Patriarchate guaranteed the unity of the Orthodox Church, without in the least damaging or diminishing the independence of the local autocephalous Churches by any interference in their internal affairs. This, in any case, is the healthy significance of the institution of autocephaly: while it assures the self-governance of each Church with regard to its internal life and organization, on matters affecting the entire Orthodox Church and its relations with those outside, each autocephalous Church does not act alone but in coordination with the rest of the Orthodox Churches. If this coordination either disappears or diminishes, then autocephaly becomes "autocephalism" (or radical independence), namely a factor of division rather than unity for the Orthodox Church.

Therefore, dearly beloved brothers in the Lord, we are called to contribute in every possible way to the unity of the Orthodox Church, transcending every temptation of regionalism or nationalism so that we may act as a unified Church, as one canonically structured body. We do not, as during Byzantine times, have at our disposal a state factor that guaranteed -- and sometimes even imposed -- our unity. Nor does our ecclesiology permit any centralized authority that is able to impose unity from above. Our unity depends on our conscience. The sense of need and duty that we constitute a single canonical structure and body, one Church, is sufficient to guarantee our unity, without any external intervention...
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« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2008, 06:49:34 AM »

It is an interesting address, from what little I've read of it.
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« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2008, 10:16:23 AM »

Let's see some followup.

Btw, does anyone know if any of the Estonians showed up?  I know that the PoM was going to insist that if the EP kept bringing his autonomous Churches with everywhere, the PoM was going to insist on there's, and on the presence of the OCA.
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« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2008, 03:00:29 PM »

Let's see some followup.

Agreed

Btw, does anyone know if any of the Estonians showed up?  I know that the PoM was going to insist that if the EP kept bringing his autonomous Churches with everywhere, the PoM was going to insist on there's, and on the presence of the OCA.

I think the Estonians (EP) were indeed there.
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« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2008, 03:12:19 PM »

On mospat.ru there's written that MP's Estonian Metropolitan arrived yesterday accompanied by Patriarch Alexy.

BTW Is there an OCA's delegation?
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« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2008, 03:33:40 PM »

On mospat.ru there's written that MP's Estonian Metropolitan arrived yesterday accompanied by Patriarch Alexy.

BTW Is there an OCA's delegation?

No I don't believe there was a representative/delegation from the OCA. 
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« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2008, 03:50:20 PM »

No I don't believe there was a representative/delegation from the OCA. 

There was no mention on the OCA website of any of Her Hierarchs traveling to Istanbul.  Who knows if the OCA was even invited by the EP?   Huh
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« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2008, 04:00:14 PM »

Patriarch wants unity between Orthodox Churches

The spiritual leader of the world's Orthodox Christians is calling for ...

Why do they attribute so often this title to EP nobody ever awarded him?
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« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2008, 04:05:30 PM »

Why do they attribute so often this title to EP nobody ever awarded him?

FWIW, the first among equals (primus inter pares) honor makes the EP a legacy equivalent to the Pope of Rome when it comes to Orthodox/Catholic relations.  When the Great Schism occurred, What became Moscow was nowhere near a Patriarchate.
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« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2008, 04:31:29 PM »

On mospat.ru there's written that MP's Estonian Metropolitan arrived yesterday accompanied by Patriarch Alexy.

BTW Is there an OCA's delegation?

The OCA is widowed, if not orphaned, and headless, if not rudderless.  And I believe it is in the midst of its own council now.
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« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2008, 04:33:01 PM »

Patriarch wants unity between Orthodox Churches

The spiritual leader of the world's Orthodox Christians is calling for ...

Why do they attribute so often this title to EP nobody ever awarded him?

It fits into their image of the EP as the Orthodox Pope (who is in Alexandria, btw).

Why do they attribute so often this title to EP nobody ever awarded him?

FWIW, the first among equals (primus inter pares) honor makes the EP a legacy equivalent to the Pope of Rome when it comes to Orthodox/Catholic relations.

It's an Pan-Orthodox meeting. As far as I know, the Vatican wasn't invited.

Quote
  When the Great Schism occurred, What became Moscow was nowhere near a Patriarchate.

Moscow became autocephalous when the Roman emperor forced the EP to kiss the Vatican's slipper at Florence.  By then Kiev/Moscow was the largest Church already. 

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« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2008, 04:50:19 PM »

The OCA.... And I believe it is in the midst of its own council now.

Next month.
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« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2008, 05:11:37 PM »

I was responding to Reply #7.  Why would you add words saying that the Vatican wasn't invited?   Huh

It's an Pan-Orthodox meeting. As far as I know, the Vatican wasn't invited.

Stick to the topic....    Cool
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« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2008, 05:35:14 PM »

Why do they attribute so often this title to EP nobody ever awarded him?

FWIW, the first among equals (primus inter pares) honor makes the EP a legacy equivalent to the Pope of Rome when it comes to Orthodox/Catholic relations.  When the Great Schism occurred, What became Moscow was nowhere near a Patriarchate.

FWIW, that's your private interpretation, and perhaps even interpretation of some (many?) at the position in certain Patriarchate, but simply have no basis, and...you know what you can do with it, don't you?
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« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2008, 05:39:21 PM »

...

It was the "federation of Churches" part that caught my attention. The entire address can be read at this location, but here's part of it:

Quote
...Through the centuries, and especially after the Schism, when the Church of Rome ceased to be in communion with the Orthodox, this Throne was called -- according to canonical order -- to serve the unity of the Orthodox Church as its first Throne. ...

This is false statement.

It wasn't the Throne of EP that "served the unity".

And there was no such a generally accepted cannon. HH Bartholomew might wish to elevate Endimousa Synod to that rank, but they aren't.
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« Reply #15 on: October 12, 2008, 06:08:32 PM »

Be mindful that what the EP is talking about in his speech has nothing to do with Americas or Australia. The reference to the diaspora is talking about specific situations that have arisen in Europe, Istanbul and Dubai. This speech has more to do with bringing Greece back under Constantinople then anything else.

My personal opinion is that there is a want to redraw and reassign the Patriarchates and thus increase the territories of Constantinople while diminishing the territories of Moscow. In the end I think this might actually be a good thing by finally make a strong statement against the heresy of ethnophyletism. Ultimately this could finally settle the issue of cross jurisdiction that exist in the New World.
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« Reply #16 on: October 12, 2008, 06:23:42 PM »

... by finally make a strong statement against the heresy of ethnophyletism. Ultimately this could finally settle the issue of cross jurisdiction that exist in the New World.

And, of course, EP is the right one to condemn etnophyletism.
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« Reply #17 on: October 12, 2008, 06:48:59 PM »

FWIW, that's your private interpretation, and perhaps even interpretation of some (many?) at the position in certain Patriarchate, but simply have no basis, and...you know what you can do with it, don't you?

You say tomato, I say tomahto.
You say potato, I say potahto.

Before 1054, Rome and Constantinople were joint primus inter pares.
After 1054, Constantinople remained primus inter pares.

You're going to tell ME what I can do with known History.  What are YOU doing about it?   Huh
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« Reply #18 on: October 12, 2008, 06:55:32 PM »

FWIW, that's your private interpretation, and perhaps even interpretation of some (many?) at the position in certain Patriarchate, but simply have no basis, and...you know what you can do with it, don't you?


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« Reply #19 on: October 12, 2008, 07:13:39 PM »

Be mindful that what the EP is talking about in his speech has nothing to do with Americas or Australia. The reference to the diaspora is talking about specific situations that have arisen in Europe, Istanbul and Dubai.

Dubai?  Sure, I knew there were Orthodox there and I thought the Patriarch of Antioch had responsibility over the Middle East....
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« Reply #20 on: October 12, 2008, 07:33:52 PM »

Why do they attribute so often this title to EP nobody ever awarded him?

FWIW, the first among equals (primus inter pares) honor makes the EP a legacy equivalent to the Pope of Rome when it comes to Orthodox/Catholic relations.  When the Great Schism occurred, What became Moscow was nowhere near a Patriarchate.

'First AMONGST EQUALS' and 'Spiritual Leader of the world's Orthodox' are two different things.  The EP is not now, nor will he ever be the SPIRITUAL LEADER of world Orthodoxy!

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« Reply #21 on: October 12, 2008, 07:36:10 PM »

... by finally make a strong statement against the heresy of ethnophyletism. Ultimately this could finally settle the issue of cross jurisdiction that exist in the New World.

And, of course, EP is the right one to condemn etnophyletism.

Ya got that right!  It's like the pot calling the kettle black!

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« Reply #22 on: October 12, 2008, 07:40:50 PM »

I was responding to Reply #7.  Why would you add words saying that the Vatican wasn't invited?   Huh

I was responding to Reply #8
Why do they attribute so often this title to EP nobody ever awarded him?

FWIW, the first among equals (primus inter pares) honor makes the EP a legacy equivalent to the Pope of Rome when it comes to Orthodox/Catholic relations.  When the Great Schism occurred, What became Moscow was nowhere near a Patriarchate.

Perhaps putting Rome so close to Orthodox/Catholic relations, I misread the later as Orthodox-Catholic (i.e. Vatican) relations, instead of Orthodox Catholic (i.e. Universal, Pan-Orthodox) relations.  If so, I apologize.

It's an Pan-Orthodox meeting. As far as I know, the Vatican wasn't invited.

Stick to the topic....    Cool
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Ravenna is making that difficult.
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« Reply #23 on: October 12, 2008, 07:44:53 PM »

...

It was the "federation of Churches" part that caught my attention. The entire address can be read at this location, but here's part of it:

Quote
...Through the centuries, and especially after the Schism, when the Church of Rome ceased to be in communion with the Orthodox, this Throne was called -- according to canonical order -- to serve the unity of the Orthodox Church as its first Throne. ...

This is false statement.

It wasn't the Throne of EP that "served the unity".

And there was no such a generally accepted cannon. HH Bartholomew might wish to elevate Endimousa Synod to that rank, but they aren't.

Well, it is the Mother Church of the European Churches, and has subdued the Patriarchates of Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem to a degree Rome, with its Latinization, can only envy.

New Rome needs to learn that her daughters have grown up, and her older sisters aren't going to be bullied as in the past.  Then she can serve as a means of unity.
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« Reply #24 on: October 12, 2008, 07:49:43 PM »

Be mindful that what the EP is talking about in his speech has nothing to do with Americas or Australia. The reference to the diaspora is talking about specific situations that have arisen in Europe, Istanbul and Dubai. This speech has more to do with bringing Greece back under Constantinople then anything else.

My personal opinion is that there is a want to redraw and reassign the Patriarchates and thus increase the territories of Constantinople while diminishing the territories of Moscow. In the end I think this might actually be a good thing by finally make a strong statement against the heresy of ethnophyletism. Ultimately this could finally settle the issue of cross jurisdiction that exist in the New World.

Or exaserbate it.

If it is as you are telling, it bodes ill for Holy Orthodoxy.  What are we going to do next, let the Vatican make a strong statemetn against the heresy of ultramontanism?

What problems are in Dubai?  I'm interested, as I might be going there next month, and spend a considerable amount of time there.
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« Reply #25 on: October 12, 2008, 08:39:44 PM »

Be mindful that what the EP is talking about in his speech has nothing to do with Americas or Australia. The reference to the diaspora is talking about specific situations that have arisen in Europe, Istanbul and Dubai.

Dubai?  Sure, I knew there were Orthodox there and I thought the Patriarch of Antioch had responsibility over the Middle East....
That is the problem, it is accepted that the Patriarch of Antioch is responsible over the entire Middle East, except for the City of Jerusalem. Jerusalem has been expanding their territory, with the help of local governments, for the past 60 years. The government of Dubai is helping cause confusion by giving land for the establishment of churches to Jerusalem, Antioch, Russian, Romania, Georgian and Bulgaria. These churches, when built, will be all next to each other. Right now most of the priest in Dubai are there without the permission of the Metropolitan Constantine, who is the Archbishop of Babylon and whose diocese covers all the Gulf States. I should also say that some of the priest are there with permission and serve their ethnic communities with permission and are treated as priest of the archdiocese. 
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« Reply #26 on: October 12, 2008, 08:51:05 PM »

Perhaps putting Rome so close to Orthodox/Catholic relations, I misread the later as Orthodox-Catholic (i.e. Vatican) relations, instead of Orthodox Catholic (i.e. Universal, Pan-Orthodox) relations.  If so, I apologize.

Last time I checked, Rome was still on the map and the Roman Catholic Pope was also the Bishop of Rome.  Forgive me if my semanics confused you for I was referring to today's Orthodox/Catholic relations where Catholic = Roman Catholicism; Although, I admit that the bolded text is applicable as well.  Anyway, apology accepted.   Smiley

Ravenna is making that difficult.

Life goes on....
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« Reply #27 on: October 12, 2008, 09:53:36 PM »

Be mindful that what the EP is talking about in his speech has nothing to do with Americas or Australia. The reference to the diaspora is talking about specific situations that have arisen in Europe, Istanbul and Dubai.

Dubai?  Sure, I knew there were Orthodox there and I thought the Patriarch of Antioch had responsibility over the Middle East....
That is the problem, it is accepted that the Patriarch of Antioch is responsible over the entire Middle East, except for the City of Jerusalem. Jerusalem has been expanding their territory, with the help of local governments, for the past 60 years. The government of Dubai is helping cause confusion by giving land for the establishment of churches to Jerusalem, Antioch, Russian, Romania, Georgian and Bulgaria. These churches, when built, will be all next to each other. Right now most of the priest in Dubai are there without the permission of the Metropolitan Constantine, who is the Archbishop of Babylon and whose diocese covers all the Gulf States. I should also say that some of the priest are there with permission and serve their ethnic communities with permission and are treated as priest of the archdiocese. 

Ordinarily I would be scandalized, but a Muslim goverment, giving land for, let alone allowing, the building of Churches is always a source of rejoicing.
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« Reply #28 on: October 12, 2008, 10:19:27 PM »

Be mindful that what the EP is talking about in his speech has nothing to do with Americas or Australia. The reference to the diaspora is talking about specific situations that have arisen in Europe, Istanbul and Dubai.

Dubai?  Sure, I knew there were Orthodox there and I thought the Patriarch of Antioch had responsibility over the Middle East....
That is the problem, it is accepted that the Patriarch of Antioch is responsible over the entire Middle East, except for the City of Jerusalem. Jerusalem has been expanding their territory, with the help of local governments, for the past 60 years. The government of Dubai is helping cause confusion by giving land for the establishment of churches to Jerusalem, Antioch, Russian, Romania, Georgian and Bulgaria. These churches, when built, will be all next to each other. Right now most of the priest in Dubai are there without the permission of the Metropolitan Constantine, who is the Archbishop of Babylon and whose diocese covers all the Gulf States. I should also say that some of the priest are there with permission and serve their ethnic communities with permission and are treated as priest of the archdiocese. 

Ordinarily I would be scandalized, but a Muslim goverment, giving land for, let alone allowing, the building of Churches is always a source of rejoicing.
The people from foreign lands are needed to make the economy in the UAE work and they do everything possible to make these expatriates feel welcome including allowing alcohol sales and religious tolerance. It is only tolerance and they control it by setting aside the land and building the church structure. In Dubai all of the Christian churches will be in one large block.

A bigger stink hasn't been made about this for two reasons. First Met. Constantine's health is not good and secondly most of these churches have not been built yet and it would be in the best interest of the Church to have as many church building built while they can be built.
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« Reply #29 on: October 12, 2008, 11:43:39 PM »

Why do they attribute so often this title to EP nobody ever awarded him?

FWIW, the first among equals (primus inter pares) honor makes the EP a legacy equivalent to the Pope of Rome when it comes to Orthodox/Catholic relations.  When the Great Schism occurred, What became Moscow was nowhere near a Patriarchate.

'First AMONGST EQUALS' and 'Spiritual Leader of the world's Orthodox' are two different things.  The EP is not now, nor will he ever be the SPIRITUAL LEADER of world Orthodoxy!

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« Reply #30 on: October 13, 2008, 02:35:19 AM »

... What are YOU doing about it?   Huh

I'm going to remember that THE ONLY power EP does have in addition to other bishops is to hear appeals of a clergy against a decision of a local council, and to annul the decision once, but not to reverse it. That's according to the 2nd Cannon of 6th council, that canonized Sardica.

That's what I'm going to do.
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« Reply #31 on: October 13, 2008, 02:54:20 AM »

...]

Well, it is the Mother Church of the European Churches, and has subdued the Patriarchates of Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem to a degree Rome, with its Latinization, can only envy.

...

Yes, preparations were systematic and long-termed.

But we are relying on Holy Spirit.
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« Reply #32 on: October 13, 2008, 03:03:58 AM »

...
'First AMONGST EQUALS' and 'Spiritual Leader of the world's Orthodox' are two different things.  The EP is not now, nor will he ever be the SPIRITUAL LEADER of world Orthodoxy!

Orthodoc

Ditto on that!

Yet another ditto.
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« Reply #33 on: October 13, 2008, 05:17:19 AM »

Does anyone besides me find it absolutely bizarre that a thread about the Ecumenical Patriarch calling for greater unity in the Church -something which we pray for at every Liturgy- should spur the kind of responses one finds in this thread? I find it rather telling about some people's Jungian Shadows- we often accuse others of things in ourselves we wish to deny.
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« Reply #34 on: October 13, 2008, 05:40:14 AM »

Does anyone besides me find it absolutely bizarre that a thread about the Ecumenical Patriarch calling for greater unity in the Church -something which we pray for at every Liturgy- should spur the kind of responses one finds in this thread?

Yes, it is bizarre.

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I find it rather telling about some people's Jungian Shadows- we often accuse others of things in ourselves we wish to deny

Lord have mercy.
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« Reply #35 on: October 13, 2008, 08:21:35 AM »

Does anyone besides me find it absolutely bizarre that a thread about the Ecumenical Patriarch calling for greater unity in the Church -something which we pray for at every Liturgy- should spur the kind of responses one finds in this thread? I find it rather telling about some people's Jungian Shadows- we often accuse others of things in ourselves we wish to deny.

Perhaps if your Patriarch simply showed as much charity, respect  and humility to his equals WITHIN the Church as he does towards his pals in Rome OUTSIDE the Church he would not even need to raise this subject.

I myself find it bizarre that so far in this thread it is only those looking to the EP for leadership that are amazed to find others not under his dubious guidance are not nearly as enamoured of him as they themselves  are.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #36 on: October 13, 2008, 08:29:16 AM »

Perhaps if your Patriarch simply showed as much charity, respect  and humility to his equals WITHIN the Church as he does towards his pals in Rome OUTSIDE the Church he would not even need to raise this subject.

I myself find it bizarre that so far in this thread it is only those looking to the EP for leadership that are amazed to find others not under his dubious guidance are not nearly as enamoured of him as they themselves  are.  Roll Eyes

What has any of this to do with the topic of this thread?
On second thoughts, forget it. It's obviously pointless trying to talk to you.
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« Reply #37 on: October 13, 2008, 08:32:10 AM »

Perhaps if your Patriarch simply showed as much charity, respect  and humility to his equals WITHIN the Church as he does towards his pals in Rome OUTSIDE the Church he would not even need to raise this subject.

I myself find it bizarre that so far in this thread it is only those looking to the EP for leadership that are amazed to find others not under his dubious guidance are not nearly as enamoured of him as they themselves  are.  Roll Eyes

What has any of this to do with the topic of this thread?
On second thoughts, forget it. It's obviously pointless trying to talk to you.

It has about as much relevancy as your initial post in this thread did and to which I responded.  Roll Eyes

Always so helpful not to mention insightful when you contribute Ozzy.  Wink
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« Reply #38 on: October 13, 2008, 08:35:22 AM »

Please stay on topic.
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« Reply #39 on: October 13, 2008, 08:40:59 AM »

Please stay on topic.


Yes, please do that.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #40 on: October 13, 2008, 05:02:57 PM »

'First AMONGST EQUALS' and 'Spiritual Leader of the world's Orthodox' are two different things.

True for us Orthodox; maybe not so for outsiders.

The EP is not now, nor will he ever be the SPIRITUAL LEADER of world Orthodoxy!

"Not now" I won't debate.
But "nor will he ever be" - really?  We pray for secular leaders, that they lead us well; why not do the same for Church leaders that we don't agree with?
If you had said "The EP is certainly NOT the SPIRITUAL LEADER of world Orthodoxy," that would be a bit more, say, reasonable, rather than "never will be."
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« Reply #41 on: October 13, 2008, 05:19:53 PM »

'First AMONGST EQUALS' and 'Spiritual Leader of the world's Orthodox' are two different things.

True for us Orthodox; maybe not so for outsiders.

The EP is not now, nor will he ever be the SPIRITUAL LEADER of world Orthodoxy!

"Not now" I won't debate.
But "nor will he ever be" - really?

Really.

Quote
We pray for secular leaders, that they lead us well; why not do the same for Church leaders that we don't agree with?
If you had said "The EP is certainly NOT the SPIRITUAL LEADER of world Orthodoxy," that would be a bit more, say, reasonable, rather than "never will be."

Because no Patriarch/Archbishop/Metropolitan is spiritual Father to all faithfull, neither a bishop to all in his diocese.
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« Reply #42 on: October 13, 2008, 05:37:38 PM »

Does anyone besides me find it absolutely bizarre that a thread about the Ecumenical Patriarch calling for greater unity in the Church -something which we pray for at every Liturgy- should spur the kind of responses one finds in this thread? I find it rather telling about some people's Jungian Shadows- we often accuse others of things in ourselves we wish to deny.

Perhaps if your Patriarch simply showed as much charity, respect  and humility to his equals WITHIN the Church as he does towards his pals in Rome OUTSIDE the Church he would not even need to raise this subject.

I myself find it bizarre that so far in this thread it is only those looking to the EP for leadership that are amazed to find others not under his dubious guidance are not nearly as enamoured of him as they themselves  are.  Roll Eyes
You have hit the nail on the head.
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« Reply #43 on: October 13, 2008, 06:07:37 PM »

Perhaps if your Patriarch simply showed as much charity, respect  and humility to his equals WITHIN the Church as he does towards his pals in Rome OUTSIDE the Church he would not even need to raise this subject.

Brothers do tend to fight more ferociously with one another than with outsiders.  While it's not an excuse, it certainly does pertain to this situation.  And while they do tend to fight more, they are the only ones who sit together for dinner and say their evening prayers together.

I myself find it bizarre that so far in this thread it is only those looking to the EP for leadership that are amazed to find others not under his dubious guidance are not nearly as enamoured of him as they themselves  are.  Roll Eyes

I don't know about "enamored," but whether "enamored" or not it's one thing to be critical, and another thing to wish ill.  Unfortunately it seems that people are more willing to do the latter to the EP, rather than the former.

I continue to repeat my objection that I've raised in other places, too - this time, in reference to "not under his dubious guidance."  You impugn too much power upon the Patriarch and ascribe too much influence. On the big decisions, he actually does have to get an entire synod of people who, contrary to popular opinion, don't agree with him at all times (I know people who work/worked at the Patriarchate who've told me stories of this); and he doesn't make any of the day-to-day decisions that affect life here in the jurisdictions connected to his see.  If you want to object to how things are run over here, it would be more appropriate to direct your comments to those leading here (bishops, clergy, lay leaders, etc.), rather than to the EP.

On an individual level, it is a bit troubling just to see vitriol directed at anyone - Orthodox or not, Patriarch or not.  It seems that we tend to feed into the "mob mentality" at times, whether it be anti-Catholic, anti-EP, anti-Old Calendar, anti-New Calendar, etc.  From what I've seen on the forum over the last 3-5 days, it's as if the Purple Demons of lent have forgotten what month it is, and have decided to tempt us all to become more angry and hateful than we really are.  I pray this is the case, and we all haven't just become more irritable.
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« Reply #44 on: October 13, 2008, 10:59:28 PM »

Let's look at the goodness in this pronouncement, a collaborative effort among the primates, all of them (or their representatives) it appears, of the "Holy Churches of God."

They must meet regularly to address "matters of common concern" and speak with one voice, to this, more than ever, fallen world.  Patriarch Alexie's attendance shows a growth in his administrative maturity, placing the needs of the greater Church, above his administrative disputes with Patriarch Bartholomew.

I am thankful to God for this initiative and its appearant success.  This assembly demonstates that the ancient design for Church order, can work in this day.   Conciliarity worked.  Let's stay away from disputing the role of the "First Throne" and the "First Among Equals."  This Church must have a "coordinator," a point of reference, that enables all the sister churches to address matters, such as those outlined in His All Holiness' welcoming address.  Let's keep this process progressing, and not allow pettiness to keep this One, True, Faith, marginalized from the platforms of world discussion.  The world is so in need of the message of Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #45 on: October 14, 2008, 03:54:44 AM »

This assembly demonstates that the ancient design for Church order, can work in this day.   Conciliarity worked. 

I'm afraid neither is the case.

There would be no gathering of primates of autocephalias in ancient design, than all and every bishop would be free to attend and would vote. That would be ancient design and that would be conciliarity.

Regarding first among equals, nobody disputes the powers granted to Him by 2nd cannon of the 6th council, that canonized Sardica.
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« Reply #46 on: October 14, 2008, 10:14:00 AM »

'First AMONGST EQUALS' and 'Spiritual Leader of the world's Orthodox' are two different things.

True for us Orthodox; maybe not so for outsiders.

The EP is not now, nor will he ever be the SPIRITUAL LEADER of world Orthodoxy!

"Not now" I won't debate.
But "nor will he ever be" - really?  We pray for secular leaders, that they lead us well; why not do the same for Church leaders that we don't agree with?
If you had said "The EP is certainly NOT the SPIRITUAL LEADER of world Orthodoxy," that would be a bit more, say, reasonable, rather than "never will be."

I stand by 'never will be'.  There is not now, NOR WILL THERE EVER BE TWO SUPREME PONTIFFS, one in the west and one in the east.  For that to happen we will have to cease being Orthodox Catholic.  The two words that come after "FIRST" in this title have a distinct meaning.  Too bad the EP doesn't seem to take that into consideration when he gives into the flatery he receives from Rome to build up his already inflated ego.

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« Reply #47 on: October 14, 2008, 10:45:10 AM »

Perhaps if your Patriarch simply showed as much charity, respect  and humility to his equals WITHIN the Church as he does towards his pals in Rome OUTSIDE the Church he would not even need to raise this subject.

Brothers do tend to fight more ferociously with one another than with outsiders.  While it's not an excuse, it certainly does pertain to this situation.  And while they do tend to fight more, they are the only ones who sit together for dinner and say their evening prayers together.

I myself find it bizarre that so far in this thread it is only those looking to the EP for leadership that are amazed to find others not under his dubious guidance are not nearly as enamoured of him as they themselves  are.  Roll Eyes

I don't know about "enamored," but whether "enamored" or not it's one thing to be critical, and another thing to wish ill.  Unfortunately it seems that people are more willing to do the latter to the EP, rather than the former.

I continue to repeat my objection that I've raised in other places, too - this time, in reference to "not under his dubious guidance."  You impugn too much power upon the Patriarch and ascribe too much influence. On the big decisions, he actually does have to get an entire synod of people who, contrary to popular opinion, don't agree with him at all times (I know people who work/worked at the Patriarchate who've told me stories of this); and he doesn't make any of the day-to-day decisions that affect life here in the jurisdictions connected to his see.  If you want to object to how things are run over here, it would be more appropriate to direct your comments to those leading here (bishops, clergy, lay leaders, etc.), rather than to the EP.

On an individual level, it is a bit troubling just to see vitriol directed at anyone - Orthodox or not, Patriarch or not.  It seems that we tend to feed into the "mob mentality" at times, whether it be anti-Catholic, anti-EP, anti-Old Calendar, anti-New Calendar, etc.  From what I've seen on the forum over the last 3-5 days, it's as if the Purple Demons of lent have forgotten what month it is, and have decided to tempt us all to become more angry and hateful than we really are.  I pray this is the case, and we all haven't just become more irritable.

I'm with you, Cleveland.  While I've only been on the forum about a year now, it seems like in the past few days, the level of ugliness, unkindness, vitriol, and anger has just escalated exponentially.  Or maybe it's that the same few people, whose hearts seem to be hardened like stone, are dominating a few threads and openly displaying their bitterness.  I'm reminded of St. Paul in 1Corinthians 13:
Quote
Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.

This is the second time in two days that I've quoted 1Cor 13.  Guess I'd have to say it ranks up there as one of my favorites, and guess I'd have to say that I've seen a total LACK of love here the past few days. 

Whether one likes/agrees with the EP or not, did not Christ call us to love and pray for everyone?  Why is it that we'll love and pray for all manner of other people, but are so unwilling to love and pray for an Orthodox Bishop (the EP)?  If someone could answer this for me (with a real reason, rather than just more nastiness), I would be very grateful.  I'd like to try and understand, because right now my heart cannot understand what I'm reading, and it makes me so sad.

Lord have mercy on us.

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« Reply #48 on: October 14, 2008, 10:50:52 AM »

Quote
I stand by 'never will be'.  There is not now, NOR WILL THERE EVER BE TWO SUPREME PONTIFFS, one in the west and one in the east.  For that to happen we will have to cease being Orthodox Catholic. 
I'm confused.  Where did two pontiffs come in?

Quote
The two words that come after "FIRST" in this title have a distinct meaning.  Too bad the EP doesn't seem to take that into consideration when he gives into the flatery he receives from Rome to build up his already inflated ego.

And you feel you are the proper person to cast judgement on the Ecumenical Patriarch?  How could you possibly know anything about his ego?  How could you possibly know why he feels so strongly about re-uniting the church?  Do you know his heart?  Are you the spiritual father of the Ecumenical Patriarch? 

My Grandma used to say, "Keep in mind when you point your finger at someone else that there are three more fingers pointing back at you."   
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« Reply #49 on: October 14, 2008, 11:34:08 AM »

I stand by 'never will be'.  There is not now, NOR WILL THERE EVER BE TWO SUPREME PONTIFFS, one in the west and one in the east.  For that to happen we will have to cease being Orthodox Catholic.  The two words that come after "FIRST" in this title have a distinct meaning.  Too bad the EP doesn't seem to take that into consideration when he gives into the flatery he receives from Rome to build up his already inflated ego.

Again, I think that the statement "never will be the spiritual leader of world Orthodoxy" is a bit too much; was St. John Chrysostom the spiritual leader of Orthodoxy as EP?  Or St. Cyril as Patriarch of Alexandria?  Could the president of an Ecumenical Synod be called "spiritual leader of world Orthodoxy?"  There have been some fantastic, wonderful, saintly Patriarchs of Constantinople, even in the post-schism era; if they were the dominant personalities in the Orthodox world at their time, doesn't that make them "spiritual leaders?"

I actually think that the title "spiritual leader" is a slap by the RC's and the like, who try and make the bond between Orthodox Churches be less than administrative and tangible unity (which we do have, through the Communion of the Autocephalous Churches).

That's where my quarrel is - I don't know where you get the two pontiffs thing; if it was "two pontiffs," then he wouldn't be the "spiritual leader," but rather the "head of" or "chief bishop" or "Pope of the East."

Beyond that, I think your "inflated ego" comment is in bad taste, not because it's an insult to another human being (which it is), but because I think it's beneath you to be insulting.  You've been quite cordial to me, despite our differences of opinion; I'd hope to see the same consideration given to him, despite the fact that you don't speak directly to him as you do me.
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« Reply #50 on: October 14, 2008, 11:50:56 AM »

Would it not be correct to say that while the Ecumencial Patriarch may be the "Spiritual Leader" (or Spiritual Father?) of the Orthodox Churches, he (unlike the Pope) doesn't have the ability to tell the other Patriarchs what to do and doesn't have the ability to make decisions for other Patriarchates?

I think you could say he is a spiritual leader, but not the administrative leader.

St. Peter was certainly a spiritual leader among the Apostles... Yet even in the Council at Jerusalem, he didn't have authority over St. James, who was the leader of the church there in Jerusalem and who oversaw the Council.

If we allow people to use this term "spiritual leader" would we also have to clarify that he isn't the leader of the Orthodox Church in the sense of authority and administration?

The Pope of Rome is the spiritual leader AND administrative leader of the Roman Catholic Church... Could we not also say that the "Pope" of Constantinople is the spiritual leader, but not the administrative leader of the Eastern Orthodox Church?

Also I don't think spiritual leader also has to imply that he can make theological/doctrinal decisions for the Eastern Orthodox Church. Yes westerners could definitely misinterpret the term, but isn't it our job to make sure they know the differences anyway?

Why also would we have to call just the EP the spiritual leader? Because all of the Patriarchs are spiritual leaders, even though the EP is the "first among equals". We should be wary of giving the EP too much authority and credit, however, we must also be careful not to disregard him because of Romophobia...
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« Reply #51 on: October 14, 2008, 11:59:41 AM »

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I stand by 'never will be'.  There is not now, NOR WILL THERE EVER BE TWO SUPREME PONTIFFS, one in the west and one in the east.  For that to happen we will have to cease being Orthodox Catholic. 
I'm confused.  Where did two pontiffs come in?

Quote
The two words that come after "FIRST" in this title have a distinct meaning.  Too bad the EP doesn't seem to take that into consideration when he gives into the flattery he receives from Rome to build up his already inflated ego.

And you feel you are the proper person to cast judgement on the Ecumenical Patriarch?  How could you possibly know anything about his ego?  How could you possibly know why he feels so strongly about reuniting the church?  Do you know his heart?  Are you the spiritual father of the Ecumenical Patriarch?

Are the Monks of Athos the EP's spiritual father? No? And yet they also have strong opinions regarding Pat. Bartholomew's highly dubious (some would even say quasi-heretical) dealings with the heterodox Roman church.  Perhaps after your current attempt to silence Orthodoc runs its course, you can turn your efforts towards shutting Athos up as well.

Quote
My Grandma used to say, "Keep in mind when you point your finger at someone else that there are three more fingers pointing back at you."   

A tired and worn out cliche invariably trotted out by those who are themselves in the midst of doing a bit of fingerpointing.
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« Reply #52 on: October 14, 2008, 12:01:57 PM »

Would it not be correct to say that while the Ecumencial Patriarch may be the "Spiritual Leader" (or Spiritual Father?) of the Orthodox Churches, he (unlike the Pope) doesn't have the ability to tell the other Patriarchs what to do and doesn't have the ability to make decisions for other Patriarchates?
Yes, basically. The Patriarch is really just a bishop, and he is really only a leader of his diocese. The Patriarch doesn't have any real authority in other diocese even within his jurisdiction. He can request that the other bishops do things a certain way, but he cannot command it (or he could, but the other bishops would actually not be obligated to comply, unless voted upon by the council of all the bishops under that Patriarchate).
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« Reply #53 on: October 14, 2008, 12:07:34 PM »

Quote
I stand by 'never will be'.  There is not now, NOR WILL THERE EVER BE TWO SUPREME PONTIFFS, one in the west and one in the east.  For that to happen we will have to cease being Orthodox Catholic. 
I'm confused.  Where did two pontiffs come in?

Quote
The two words that come after "FIRST" in this title have a distinct meaning.  Too bad the EP doesn't seem to take that into consideration when he gives into the flattery he receives from Rome to build up his already inflated ego.

And you feel you are the proper person to cast judgement on the Ecumenical Patriarch?  How could you possibly know anything about his ego?  How could you possibly know why he feels so strongly about reuniting the church?  Do you know his heart?  Are you the spiritual father of the Ecumenical Patriarch?

Are the Monks of Athos the EP's spiritual father? No? And yet they also have strong opinions regarding Pat. Bartholomew's highly dubious (some would even say quasi-heretical) dealings with the heterodox Roman church.  Perhaps after your current attempt to silence Orthodoc runs its course, you can turn your efforts towards shutting Athos up as well.

Quote
My Grandma used to say, "Keep in mind when you point your finger at someone else that there are three more fingers pointing back at you."   

A tired and worn out cliche invariably trotted out by those who are themselves in the midst of doing a bit of fingerpointing.

I also have never heard the Monks of Athos make any nasty slurs about the EP's ego?  Have you?  I'd love to see some citations on that one.  They don't make generalizations and assumptions regarding his heart.  Furthermore, they don't go around badmouthing him behind his back, they speak directly to him, they issue public statements, and they do it with love and respect.  Two things which are OBVIOUSLY lacking here.

I'm not silencing anyone.  Orthodoc and everyone else here are free to express their opinions as they wish (obviously).  But I, too, am allowed to express my opinion, am I not?  Did I once ask him to shut up?  No.  But if he's going to put things like that out there, full of disdain and disrespect, then you'd better believe that others will call him on it. 

A tired and worn out cliche?  You know, cliches are just that for a reason... because they are true.  I didn't judge Orthodoc.  I simply stated what my Grammy used to say to me, which I thought seemed applicable to the situation.  Sorry if you have a problem with that.
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« Reply #54 on: October 14, 2008, 12:18:50 PM »

A tired and worn out cliche?  You know, cliches are just that for a reason... because they are true.  I didn't judge Orthodoc.  I simply stated what my Grammy used to say to me, which I thought seemed applicable to the situation.  Sorry if you have a problem with that.

Umm... ok... so, aside from this little online Orthodox community I am sure the wider Orthodox world could also benefit from such pearls.  Have you ever considered contacting Conciliar Press about publishing a collection of your Grammy's tired and worn out cliches?  Let me know and I can put you in touch with someone.
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« Reply #55 on: October 14, 2008, 12:23:31 PM »

A tired and worn out cliche?  You know, cliches are just that for a reason... because they are true.  I didn't judge Orthodoc.  I simply stated what my Grammy used to say to me, which I thought seemed applicable to the situation.  Sorry if you have a problem with that.

Umm... ok... so, aside from this little online Orthodox community I am sure the wider Orthodox world could also benefit from such pearls.  Have you ever considered contacting Conciliar Press about publishing a collection of your Grammy's tired and worn out cliches?  Let me know and I can put you in touch with someone.

While I do appreciate the sarcasm, is the nasty tone really necessary?  My Grammy was a great lady (may her memory be eternal) who was wise, faithful, and wonderful.  Apparently I do her a great injustice by repeating the things she said to me on this forum.  I'll ask you to forgive me for the offense I seem to have done you by bringing her up. 

I know people at Conciliar Press and Light and Life.  If I need them, don't worry, I can call them myself.  But thank you for the offer.
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« Reply #56 on: October 14, 2008, 12:32:16 PM »

Comment:  Why also would we have to call just the EP the spiritual leader? Because all of the Patriarchs are spiritual leaders, even though the EP is the "first among equals". We should be wary of giving the EP too much authority and credit, however, we must also be careful not to disregard him because of Romophobia...
   
Reply:  I agree.   The word LEADER has a distinct and specific meaning especially when it it is put within the contends that the EP puts it - THE SPIRITUAL LEADER of the world's 300 million Orthodox!  Granted is is A SPIRITUAL LEADER but he is certainly not THE SPIRITUAL LEADER   of world Orthodoxy!  He has the authority to convene a pan Orthodox council and even preside over it.  But at that council he only has one vote the same as any other  Orthodox bishop at that council.  It would be much more appropriate for him to bill himself as A SPIRITUAL LEADER  or even spokeperson for world wide Orthodoxy (as long as what he speaks is the is what the voted majority of bishops have decided.)
   
Comment:  Could the president of an Ecumenical Synod be called "spiritual leader of world Orthodoxy?" 
   
Reply:  The correct usage would be for him to be called - A SPIRITUAL LEADER, not THE SPIRITUAL LEADER which is a whole different ball game.   
   
Comment:  Beyond that, I think your "inflated ego" comment is in bad taste, not because it's an insult to another human being (which it is), but because I think it's beneath you to be insulting.  You've been quite cordial to me, despite our differences of opinion; I'd hope to see the same consideration given to him, despite the fact that you don't speak directly to him as you do me.
   
Reply:  There is an old saying that goes - By their deeds they shall be known.  To me this certainly applies here.  So far the EP has caused interference problems in the MP, the JP, the AP,  in Northern Greece, as well as Europe, Asia, and North & South American.  Even though the cannons strictly forbid him from doing so.

Comment:  And you feel you are the proper person to cast judgement on the Ecumenical Patriarch?  How could you possibly know anything about his ego? 
   
Reply:  Some of his actions involving his brother Orthodox LEADERS speak for themselves.

================

Orthodoc

   
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« Reply #57 on: October 14, 2008, 12:38:49 PM »

Would it not be correct to say that while the Ecumencial Patriarch may be the "Spiritual Leader" (or Spiritual Father?) of the Orthodox Churches, he (unlike the Pope) doesn't have the ability to tell the other Patriarchs what to do and doesn't have the ability to make decisions for other Patriarchates?
...

I don't think so.

Basically, each Orthodox is supposed to have his Spiritual Father during growing up. Those who become Bishops/Metropolitans/Archbishops/Patriarchs, as well as experienced monks, don't get another Spiritual Father once they were grown-up and their Spiritual Father reposes.

The title Ecumenical Patriarch brings so much grandeur per se that it simply doesn't need any addition.
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« Reply #58 on: October 14, 2008, 12:47:12 PM »

While I do appreciate the sarcasm, is the nasty tone really necessary?

Now, now - what was it you yourself said about making assumptions?  Had something to do with fingers I believe.   

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I know people at Conciliar Press and Light and Life.  If I need them, don't worry, I can call them myself.  But thank you for the offer.

If those two leads don't pan out, perhaps you could try the Onion Dome.  You're most welcome.
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« Reply #59 on: October 14, 2008, 12:47:40 PM »

Basically, each Orthodox is supposed to have his Spiritual Father during growing up. Those who become Bishops/Metropolitans/Archbishops/Patriarchs, as well as experienced monks, don't get another Spiritual Father once they were grown-up and their Spiritual Father reposes.

Hmmm.  Do you want to expand the second sentence here: are you saying that a bishop, once their spiritual father reposes, does not seek a new one?  From what I've seen and heard, from both experienced monks and bishops, they all have spiritual fathers, and will find new ones once their old ones repose, so as to always have spiritual guidance and a regular confessor.  Heck, sometimes they need to switch because of circumstances (moving to a new see or monastery, promotion/retirement of the old Spiritual Father, etc.).
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« Reply #60 on: October 14, 2008, 12:52:35 PM »

Orthodoc: I fully agree with you on the "A Spiritual Leader" vs. "The Spiritual Leader" distinction.

As to:

Comment:  Beyond that, I think your "inflated ego" comment is in bad taste, not because it's an insult to another human being (which it is), but because I think it's beneath you to be insulting.  You've been quite cordial to me, despite our differences of opinion; I'd hope to see the same consideration given to him, despite the fact that you don't speak directly to him as you do me.
   
Reply:  There is an old saying that goes - By their deeds they shall be known.  To me this certainly applies here.  So far the EP has caused interference problems in the MP, the JP, the AP,  in Northern Greece, as well as Europe, Asia, and North & South American.  Even though the cannons strictly forbid him from doing so.

I suppose I see the comments as judgments of person or motivation, rather than of action.  A statement like "the EP has caused interference problems in the MP, JP, AP, Northern Greece, etc., possibly because of an inflated ego..." would sound less like judgment of character than accusing him of having an inflated ego.  That's one of those thin lines I seem to cross too often, especially on the 'net - judging someone, rather than their actions; and even then, judgment is a two-edged sword that must be wielded carefully.
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« Reply #61 on: October 14, 2008, 12:58:10 PM »

...
Hmmm.  Do you want to expand the second sentence here: are you saying that a bishop, once their spiritual father reposes, does not seek a new one? ... a regular confessor.  

I make a difference between the Spiritual Father and a Confessor. Hope everything is clear now.
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« Reply #62 on: October 14, 2008, 01:07:00 PM »

...
Hmmm.  Do you want to expand the second sentence here: are you saying that a bishop, once their spiritual father reposes, does not seek a new one? ... a regular confessor.  

I make a difference between the Spiritual Father and a Confessor. Hope everything is clear now.

Right.  Thanks.
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« Reply #63 on: October 14, 2008, 01:09:07 PM »

Orthodoc: I fully agree with you on the "A Spiritual Leader" vs. "The Spiritual Leader" distinction.

I absolutely agree with this as well.

Orthodoc,

I, as well, objected to the judgement it seemed you were making about the character of the EP.  I have no problem with objections to the actions of the EP, we are all entitled to our opinion about such things.  I think that was the point Heracleides was making bringing up the Monks of Athos as well.  I agree with that.  We are entitled to disagree with the decisions of our leaders and to voice them in love and respect.  What I disagree with is judgement of his character, as though we presume to know his heart.  I don't think any of us (myself included) can presume to know the hearts of others.  

If my posts sounded judgemental of you, I apologize.  I did not mean them in judgement.  I fully believe that we can discuss and debate and point out errors in eachothers reasoning with love and absent of judgement.  This is what I was striving for.  If I did not achieve that, then my sincerest apologies to you.
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« Reply #64 on: October 14, 2008, 03:45:35 PM »

Comment:  If my posts sounded judgemental of you, I apologize.  I did not mean them in judgement.  I fully believe that we can discuss and debate and point out errors in eachothers reasoning with love and absent of judgement.  This is what I was striving for.  If I did not achieve that, then my sincerest apologies to you.

Reply:  There is absolutely NO REASON for you to apologize to me.  You are entitled to your opinion as I am mine.  I have not taken personal offense on anything you have said to me or about me.  The purpose of this website is to debate.  If we all agreed on everything it would become pretty damn boring.

You are now, and will forever remain my sister in Orthodoxy and Christ!

Since you mentioned you are familiar with Ligh-N-Life may I recommend a book written by Fr Conarsis (sp?) called 'What ever happened to the truth?'  I highly recommend it to everyone.  It's about how the latest trend is to be Politically Correct.  That it is more important not to offend when the truth can be offenseive to some.  That's poppycock!

Orthodoc
 
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« Reply #65 on: October 14, 2008, 04:39:35 PM »

Comment:  If my posts sounded judgemental of you, I apologize.  I did not mean them in judgement.  I fully believe that we can discuss and debate and point out errors in eachothers reasoning with love and absent of judgement.  This is what I was striving for.  If I did not achieve that, then my sincerest apologies to you.

Reply:  There is absolutely NO REASON for you to apologize to me.  You are entitled to your opinion as I am mine.  I have not taken personal offense on anything you have said to me or about me.  The purpose of this website is to debate.  If we all agreed on everything it would become pretty damn boring.

You are now, and will forever remain my sister in Orthodoxy and Christ!

Since you mentioned you are familiar with Ligh-N-Life may I recommend a book written by Fr Conarsis (sp?) called 'What ever happened to the truth?'  I highly recommend it to everyone.  It's about how the latest trend is to be Politically Correct.  That it is more important not to offend when the truth can be offenseive to some.  That's poppycock!

Orthodoc
 


Thank you for your kindness, and for your book recommendation!  I love Fr. Coniaris' books (currently I'm reading How To Actualize the Image of God in You).  I haven't read that one yet.  It's definitely on my list now, though!

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« Reply #66 on: October 14, 2008, 05:44:55 PM »

It’s so disheartening and it’s a shame to see people who called themselves Orthodox Christians and claimed to be part of the unadulterated Church and member of the one body of our Lord Jesus Christ engaging in this kind of activities, exchanging of unchristian words… who value so much of their opinion rather than what the Fathers of the Church says… this is what happen when the Holy Canons are being set aside… what the Holy Fathers promulgated to safeguard the Holy Orthodox faith.

May I ask the moderators to intermediate and possible close this discussion as this is not helping everyone but only creates anger and hatred among themselves…

People think here by posting their unchristian opinion placed them in the pedestal that they are the best and their patriarchates are the best and sinless.

May I ask everyone, what benefits these give us? Don’t you think you are the only people on this planet reading this forum? Don’t you think how people of other confession of faith look and laugh at us and say “Oh here they are… Orthodox Christians when they present their ecclesiology they say… we are all one… there are no differences between the Greeks, the Russians, the Antiochians, the Arab etc… but here, they act as if they don’t commune on the same cup, eat the same bread, share the same tradition and faith”

Your attitude and conduct only give unpleasant atmosphere among non-orthodox Christians in the new lands especially here in Asia.

I hope that people in the new lands will help and continue to pray for the ancient Patriarchates they may be continue be guided by the Holy Spirit and come to together in love and humility… the best thing we can do for them is to pray…

Again, I ask the moderator to stop this non-sensible discussion and I urge all the spiritual fathers involved in this forum to exercise their God given rights to educate and guide the people here of the proper attitude and conduct worthy to e called Orthodox Christians.

And I ask the participants here to talk more to your spiritual fathers rather than spending your time in this fruitless discussion.

Kyrie Eleison!
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« Reply #67 on: October 14, 2008, 07:42:58 PM »

I don't know how many have read it, but I recommend reading His All Holiness' welcoming message to his brother primates.  I too have questioned the rather aggressive leadership he has demonstrated during his patriarchal tenure, e.g. making Met. Soterios of Toronto apologize to his flock for not commemorating the EP when celebrating the Liturgy in Athens, forcing the Holy Eparchial Synod of America to withdraw their signatures from the Ligonier unity documents; forcing Archbishop Iakovos to retire; prohibiting Archbishop Spyridon from appointing members to the Archdiocesan Council, etc.  This is especially in light of the purely spiritual leadership provided by his predecessor, Patriarch Dimitrios of Thrice Blessed Memory.

However, notwithstanding his "style" of leadership, and I know your critical comments are more directed toward his relations with the sister churches, rather than the eparchy's under his jurisdiction, the world is  desperate for the message of our Holy Orthodoxy.  Our church has, and needs a point of reference; one to coordinate "matters of common concern."  Perhaps he's learned a lesson about his taking a conciliar approach to inter-Orthodox relations.  To me, he addresses his critics in his welcoming message and we may be at a precipice of a more active conciliar approach to the pressing matters he refers to in his message. 

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« Reply #68 on: October 15, 2008, 01:51:44 AM »

FWIW, there were at least 4 Roman Catholic Cardinals (observing, not participating) at the Patriarchal Divine Liturgy in the Phanar on October 12.

Picture with Cardinals.
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« Reply #69 on: October 15, 2008, 05:57:00 AM »

FWIW, there were at least 4 Roman Catholic Cardinals (observing, not participating) at the Patriarchal Divine Liturgy in the Phanar on October 12.

Picture with Cardinals.

Doesn't the EP have at least a half dozen Roman Catholic Cardinals attached to his personal entourage on a permanent basis by now??? Perhaps the Pope, just for the sake of variety, should toss in an Eastern Catholic 'Patriarch' every once in awhile.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #70 on: October 15, 2008, 06:06:12 AM »

FWIW, there were at least 4 Roman Catholic Cardinals (observing, not participating) at the Patriarchal Divine Liturgy in the Phanar on October 12.

Picture with Cardinals.

Doesn't the EP have at least a half dozen Roman Catholic Cardinals attached to his personal entourage on a permanent basis by now??? Perhaps the Pope, just for the sake of variety, should toss in an Eastern Catholic 'Patriarch' every once in awhile.  Roll Eyes

So the cardinals can come, but the OCA can't. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #71 on: October 15, 2008, 06:07:03 AM »

FWIW, there were at least 4 Roman Catholic Cardinals (observing, not participating) at the Patriarchal Divine Liturgy in the Phanar on October 12.

Picture with Cardinals.

Doesn't the EP have at least a half dozen Roman Catholic Cardinals attached to his personal entourage on a permanent basis by now??? Perhaps the Pope, just for the sake of variety, should toss in an Eastern Catholic 'Patriarch' every once in awhile.  Roll Eyes

What exactly are you talking about in the above paragraph? 
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« Reply #72 on: October 15, 2008, 06:12:44 AM »

FWIW, there were at least 4 Roman Catholic Cardinals (observing, not participating) at the Patriarchal Divine Liturgy in the Phanar on October 12.

Picture with Cardinals.

Doesn't the EP have at least a half dozen Roman Catholic Cardinals attached to his personal entourage on a permanent basis by now??? Perhaps the Pope, just for the sake of variety, should toss in an Eastern Catholic 'Patriarch' every once in awhile.  Roll Eyes

So the cardinals can come, but the OCA can't. Roll Eyes


Exactly.  So much for the prattle about his desire for ORTHODOX unity.
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« Reply #73 on: October 15, 2008, 07:15:02 AM »

Comment:  Why also would we have to call just the EP the spiritual leader?
Actually, we don't have to.
The term "spiritual leader" came out of the Church of Greece when it was granted autocephaly. The strange relationship which evolved between the  CofG and the EP needed a new definition (since the autocephaly of the CofG was, and is, entirely irregular).
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« Reply #74 on: October 15, 2008, 07:30:53 AM »

FWIW, there were at least 4 Roman Catholic Cardinals (observing, not participating) at the Patriarchal Divine Liturgy in the Phanar on October 12.

Picture with Cardinals.

Doesn't the EP have at least a half dozen Roman Catholic Cardinals attached to his personal entourage on a permanent basis by now??? Perhaps the Pope, just for the sake of variety, should toss in an Eastern Catholic 'Patriarch' every once in awhile.  Roll Eyes

So the cardinals can come, but the OCA can't. Roll Eyes


Exactly.  So much for the prattle about his desire for ORTHODOX unity.

Well, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt while I wait for my pudding, as he might be facing the problem that he has painted himself in a corner.  If we can find out what was the situation with the Estonians.  As we haven't heard much, I'm going with the assumption that something is afoot, as previously the EP had called on Met. Cornelius (PoM) to be expelled, and I don't see Pat. Alexei (himself Estonian) backing down.  If they clashed, we would have heard something even in the mainstream media (conflict is the only time we appear on their radar).

As the EP's statement included the taboo wording of Ligonier, "so-called diaspora," after having led the charge to squash the incipit Holy Synod of America, All America, the camel's nose might be sticking under the tent.  I would hope that after the whole Spyridon debacle, he has learned his lesson.  A few years back, my priest stated, correctly, that the EP's adament statements that the American Church would never be independent meant that independence was on its way.

Btw, I don't know how Arbishop Hilarion of Vienna's name got mentioned in the contending for metropolitian of the OCA, but the OCA might do us all a favor and consider it, although I don't know why he would want it.
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« Reply #75 on: October 15, 2008, 07:31:55 AM »

Comment:  Why also would we have to call just the EP the spiritual leader?
Actually, we don't have to.
The term "spiritual leader" came out of the Church of Greece when it was granted autocephaly. The strange relationship which evolved between the  CofG and the EP needed a new definition (since the autocephaly of the CofG was, and is, entirely irregular).
Irregular?  How so?

Since I think we have different views (how unusual Roll Eyes) on the CofG's authocephaly (I'd say take rather than granted for one), what is your account of the history of the title "spiritual leader."
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« Reply #76 on: October 15, 2008, 07:42:02 AM »

Doesn't the EP have at least a half dozen Roman Catholic Cardinals attached to his personal entourage on a permanent basis by now??? Perhaps the Pope, just for the sake of variety, should toss in an Eastern Catholic 'Patriarch' every once in awhile.  Roll Eyes

I didn't see even one the last time I was at the Phanar.  Nice try.
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« Reply #77 on: October 15, 2008, 12:36:13 PM »

Doesn't the EP have at least a half dozen Roman Catholic Cardinals attached to his personal entourage on a permanent basis by now??? Perhaps the Pope, just for the sake of variety, should toss in an Eastern Catholic 'Patriarch' every once in awhile.  Roll Eyes

I didn't see even one the last time I was at the Phanar.  Nice try.

Ah, but was the EP even present during your visit at the Phanar or were he and his entourage attending yet another function in Rome?  Wink

I found the commentary of some of those present at this meeting to be interesting:

Quote
"The comments on the meeting are positive. Metropolitan archbishop Kyril of Smolensk says that the meeting was truly very important and was a good sign, for expressing the life of the local Orthodox Churches and of Orthodoxy in general. "I am happy," he added, "to be here to thank the ecumenical patriarch for his opening address," and he concluded that "the pan-Orthodox meeting of 2009 will provide the instruments to improve Orthodox life." The chairman of the Ukrainian Church, Cyril, tells AsiaNws that "there are differences, but not opposition," and that "the meeting in Kiev and the one today have marked a shift." The metropolitan archbishop of Pergamon, Ioannis Zizioulas, tells AsiaNews that "we are at a turning point, and we must not hesitate any longer," while Anastasios of Albania, referring to dialogue with Catholics, tells us that "the people are demanding this, and cannot wait for full communion." The archbishop from Greece, Ieronimos, tells us that "this was very important work, which will provide results not only for the Orthodox, but for all.".

Yes, I am SURE the handful of Orthodox in Albania are clamoring incessantly for full communion with the Vatican. Roll Eyes

Quote
"An important Catholic figure present at the liturgy, who wanted to remain anonymous, comments that the speech by Bartholomew and the statement recalled a remark that Paul VI made while he was archbishop of Milan: it used to be that the bells would ring and the people would go to church, now the factory whistles blow and we must go there to find the faithful. He meant that the Church must not remain closed off in its places of worship, but must go to meet society, because the true Church is made up the faithful, and not only of priests."
.


Yes, and we all know how productive that Vatican II strategy has proved to be for the Roman Catholics.  Roll Eyes

Source: Orthodox Churches begin journey toward their grand synod
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« Reply #78 on: October 15, 2008, 12:42:39 PM »

Quote
... the Church must not remain closed off in its places of worship, but must go to meet society, because the true Church is made up the faithful, and not only of priests."
.


Yes, and we all know how productive that Vatican II strategy has proved to be for the Roman Catholics.  Roll Eyes
Uhhh, I hate to break this to you, but that's called evangelism, an activity to which ALL Christians--yes, even us Orthodox laypersons--are called.  "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation." (Mark 16:15)
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« Reply #79 on: October 15, 2008, 12:46:35 PM »

Roll Eyes
Are you having extra-pyramidal side effects? You seem to suffer frequent oculogyric crises. I suggest 2mg of benztropine stat.
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« Reply #80 on: October 15, 2008, 12:53:34 PM »

Quote
... the Church must not remain closed off in its places of worship, but must go to meet society, because the true Church is made up the faithful, and not only of priests."
.


Yes, and we all know how productive that Vatican II strategy has proved to be for the Roman Catholics.  Roll Eyes
Uhhh, I hate to break this to you, but that's called evangelism, an activity to which ALL Christians--yes, even us Orthodox laypersons--are called.  "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation." (Mark 16:15)

Of course it is... power to the people and all that hippy nonsense.  No doubt in the name of Vatican II 'evangelism' you will embrace liturgical dancing, 'extraordinary ministers', and clown liturgies with open arms.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #81 on: October 15, 2008, 12:56:20 PM »

Roll Eyes
Are you having extra-pyramidal side effects? You seem to suffer frequent oculogyric crises. I suggest 2mg of benztropine stat.

Ozzy, I realize PtA beat you to your lines with his previous post, but this is reaching, even for you.  Wink
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« Reply #82 on: October 15, 2008, 12:57:29 PM »

Quote
... the Church must not remain closed off in its places of worship, but must go to meet society, because the true Church is made up the faithful, and not only of priests."
.


Yes, and we all know how productive that Vatican II strategy has proved to be for the Roman Catholics.  Roll Eyes
Uhhh, I hate to break this to you, but that's called evangelism, an activity to which ALL Christians--yes, even us Orthodox laypersons--are called.  "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation." (Mark 16:15)

Of course it is... power to the people and all that hippy nonsense.  No doubt in the name of Vatican II 'evangelism' you will embrace liturgical dancing, 'extraordinary ministers', and clown liturgies with open arms.  Roll Eyes

And why do you think evangelism requires this, such that you now poo poo the whole idea of evangelism?


IOW, just because I agree with the statement you've highlighted doesn't mean I attach to the statement all the nonsense you attach, nor does it mean I will embrace such nonsense.  All it means is that I agree with the substance of the statement apart from any reading between the lines.
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« Reply #83 on: October 15, 2008, 01:04:14 PM »

Quote
... the Church must not remain closed off in its places of worship, but must go to meet society, because the true Church is made up the faithful, and not only of priests."
.


Yes, and we all know how productive that Vatican II strategy has proved to be for the Roman Catholics.  Roll Eyes
Uhhh, I hate to break this to you, but that's called evangelism, an activity to which ALL Christians--yes, even us Orthodox laypersons--are called.  "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation." (Mark 16:15)

Of course it is... power to the people and all that hippy nonsense.  No doubt in the name of Vatican II 'evangelism' you will embrace liturgical dancing, 'extraordinary ministers', and clown liturgies with open arms.  Roll Eyes

And why do you think evangelism requires this, such that you now poo poo the whole idea of evangelism?

I don't "poo-poo" the whole idea of evangelism, but rather the Roman Catholic Vat. II implementation of it.  You might want to read the original citation more carefully while paying particular attention as to exactly who was being quoted and in what context.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #84 on: October 15, 2008, 01:11:39 PM »

I don't "poo-poo" the whole idea of evangelism, but rather the Roman Catholic Vat. II implementation of it.  You might want to read the original citation more carefully while paying particular attention as to exactly who was being quoted and in what context.  Roll Eyes
Nah!  In this case, the decision to take the highlighted quote out of context is intentional.  I had hoped to show you the gem of truth spoken in said statement if you don't attach to it such meaning as the original speaker may have intended to communicate.  (IOW, the meaning you read is not stated clearly in nothing more than the text of your quote.  One has to know your mind to understand what you mean to express by quoting such text, and, though I've come to know pretty well how you think, I'm still not a mind reader.)
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« Reply #85 on: October 15, 2008, 01:17:47 PM »

I don't "poo-poo" the whole idea of evangelism, but rather the Roman Catholic Vat. II implementation of it.  You might want to read the original citation more carefully while paying particular attention as to exactly who was being quoted and in what context.  Roll Eyes
Nah!  In this case, the decision to take the highlighted quote out of context is intentional.  I had hoped to show you the gem of truth spoken in said statement if you don't attach to it such meaning as the original speaker may have intended to communicate.

Uh... yeah.  You are aware who Paul VI was and the role he played in Vat. II and its implementation, right?  (He is, afterall, the person being referenced by the nameless Catholic 'observer' in the quotation.) If not, then this little sidebar with you is rather pointless.


P.S. It would help in responding to you if you would desist from altering/adding to your thoughts once you post something.  Or should I perhaps simply give you a ten minute window to complete your thoughts after your initial (and apparently incomplete) posts before replying?
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« Reply #86 on: October 15, 2008, 01:23:54 PM »


This was actually RC propaganda tool I referenced at some another thread.

We are yet to see who is "at the turning point".
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« Reply #87 on: October 15, 2008, 01:28:31 PM »

P.S. It would help in responding to you if you would desist from altering/adding to your thoughts once you post something.  Or should I perhaps simply give you a ten minute window to complete your thoughts after your initial (and apparently incomplete) posts before replying?

 
« Last Edit: Today at 03:23:08 by Heracleides » 

 Cheesy
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« Reply #88 on: October 15, 2008, 01:33:03 PM »

I don't "poo-poo" the whole idea of evangelism, but rather the Roman Catholic Vat. II implementation of it.  You might want to read the original citation more carefully while paying particular attention as to exactly who was being quoted and in what context.  Roll Eyes
Nah!  In this case, the decision to take the highlighted quote out of context is intentional.  I had hoped to show you the gem of truth spoken in said statement if you don't attach to it such meaning as the original speaker may have intended to communicate.

Uh... yeah.  You are aware who Paul VI was and the role he played in Vat. II and its implementation, right?  (He is, afterall, the person being referenced by the nameless Catholic 'observer' in the quotation.) If not, then this little sidebar with you is rather pointless.
But even the Jewish high priest spoke truth unwittingly when he said the following, even though he didn't understand the significant meaning of his own prophecy:

But one of them, Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, said to them, "You know nothing at all; you do not understand that it is expedient for you that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation should not perish." He did not say this of his own accord, but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus should die for the nation, and not for the nation only, but to gather into one the children of God who are scattered abroad.  (John 11:49-53)

Quote
P.S. It would help in responding to you if you would desist from altering/adding to your thoughts once you post something.  Or should I perhaps simply give you a ten minute window to complete your thoughts after your initial (and apparently incomplete) posts before replying?
Yeah, I do that a lot, don't I? Tongue Sorry to goof you up like that.  What if I were to add thoughts by quoting myself in later posts? Wink
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« Reply #89 on: October 15, 2008, 01:34:00 PM »

P.S. It would help in responding to you if you would desist from altering/adding to your thoughts once you post something.  Or should I perhaps simply give you a ten minute window to complete your thoughts after your initial (and apparently incomplete) posts before replying?

 
« Last Edit: Today at 03:23:08 by Heracleides » 

 Cheesy

Yes Ozzy - I replied to PtA's initial post, saw that he had made substantial additions to his initial post, and added my P.S.  You're such astute moderator, what would we do without you.  Roll Eyes And with that I am off to work.

P.S. And yes, I am having trouble with one of my contact lenses this morning.  Can't get anything past you.   Kiss
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« Reply #90 on: October 15, 2008, 01:40:49 PM »

Yes Ozzy - I replied to PtA's initial post, saw that he had made substantial additions to his initial post, and added my P.S.  
Well shouldn't you undertake the same thing you demand of others and not edit your posts?

You're such astute moderator, what would we do without you.
Thank you! Finally some recognition!

 Roll Eyes
Yet another oculogyric crisis? Get that benztropine ASAP.

And with that I am off to work.
Have a good day and serve God.
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