Topic: How's this for a bad reason not to convert ...

[Carole]

Okay - so it isn't the only reason we haven't taken the big giant leap yet.  But it is on the list.

The priest's wife makes me uncomfortable.  We home school our daughter.  We started doing it when we lived in Florida because the local public schools were not a place we wanted to send our child.  We've kept doing it because it works for us.  Our daughter is enrolled in what is essential a distance learning program.  I do the teaching and most of the grading.  But we do send work to the school for independent evaluation.  The school is an accredited school and our daughter's standardized test scores are excellent (far above the average student).

BUT ... the priest's wife is some sort of education professional or social worker and she always questions me (rather intently) on what we're teaching, what sort of books we use, what kind of socialization our daughter gets.  Quite honestly - it makes me both nervous and defensive.  Our choice to home educate is our choice.  We do it because we feel it is best for our daughter.  I don't mind questions about home schooling in general.  In fact I talk about our choices often and am most always willing to explain to people why we do what we do and how it works.  As well as answering the frequent, "Is that legal?" But something about the intensity of the questions is off-putting.  So much so that I kind of don't want to go to the parish because I don't want to be subjected to the home education third degree.

Is there anyway to politely tell the priest's wife that she's really crossing a line with the intensity of her questions?

[GreekChef]

Okay - so it isn't the only reason we haven't taken the big giant leap yet.  But it is on the list.

The priest's wife makes me uncomfortable.  We home school our daughter.  We started doing it when we lived in Florida because the local public schools were not a place we wanted to send our child.  We've kept doing it because it works for us.  Our daughter is enrolled in what is essential a distance learning program.  I do the teaching and most of the grading.  But we do send work to the school for independent evaluation.  The school is an accredited school and our daughter's standardized test scores are excellent (far above the average student).

BUT ... the priest's wife is some sort of education professional or social worker and she always questions me (rather intently) on what we're teaching, what sort of books we use, what kind of socialization our daughter gets.  Quite honestly - it makes me both nervous and defensive.  Our choice to home educate is our choice.  We do it because we feel it is best for our daughter.  I don't mind questions about home schooling in general.  In fact I talk about our choices often and am most always willing to explain to people why we do what we do and how it works.  As well as answering the frequent, "Is that legal?" But something about the intensity of the questions is off-putting.  So much so that I kind of don't want to go to the parish because I don't want to be subjected to the home education third degree.

Is there anyway to politely tell the priest's wife that she's really crossing a line with the intensity of her questions?

Heh.   I have to admit, this is a new one that I haven't heard before.  What's funny is that I know several priests/presbyteres who homeschool their children. 

Personally, when she starts asking you questions, I would stop and ask her exactly what she does for a living.  It will give you an idea why she's grilling you, and maybe give you an opportunity to address her constant questions.  If you do address the grilling, I would be sure to politely thank her for her concern and ask for her prayers.  I'm not sure any of this will help, but I pray it does.  I guess I would just say try to tell her the truth in love.  It sounds as though she is genuinely concerned, so she'll probably be willing to listen.

Hope I've helped!!

In Christ,
Presbytera Mari

[Carole]

Presbytera Mari,

Thank you.  I realize that this is an odd topic.  I believe she has a doctorate in education. 

I think part of my discomfort stems from the fact that she's also questioned my daughter about what subjects she's studying, what social activities she's involved in.  It's different, in tone, from the usual questions of curiosity (or even hostility) that we've encountered in the past.  Perhaps after a while (if we were to convert and be regular members of the parish) she would relax and be less intense. 

I honestly cannot think of any way to tell her that she makes me uncomfortable with the intensity of her questioning without sounding rude.  Which, of course, I would want to avoid.

Edited to clarify:

I have no concrete reason to believe that she is disapproving of home education and it is entirely possible that my reaction to her questions are an overreaction.  It's just that the questions feel as though they are more intensely asked and the answers more carefully scrutinized (almost like a test) than any I've been asked in the 8 years that we've home schooling. 

[SolEX01]

Simple answer #1 - Tell her, politely, that your daughter's home schooling is none of her business and that your family views Church as a place of refuge, not a place of oppression.

Simple answer #2 - Find another Church and avoid this Presbytera's "Inquisition", for lack of a better word, especially if the Presbytera happened to work for the School Board in your particular County or School District.  She may have an issue against home schoolers and prefers to see them in School for her District to receive those "No Child Left Behind" dollars.

Do not worry about sounding rude.  There are precedents in Scripture of "shaking the dust" from one's shoes.

[Tallitot]

You could always try asking her "Why do you ask?" and then waiting for her answer. Also mention to her that you would rather she not question your daughter and direct all questions to you.

[Tamara]

Presbytera Mari,

Thank you.  I realize that this is an odd topic.  I believe she has a doctorate in education. 

I think part of my discomfort stems from the fact that she's also questioned my daughter about what subjects she's studying, what social activities she's involved in.  It's different, in tone, from the usual questions of curiosity (or even hostility) that we've encountered in the past.  Perhaps after a while (if we were to convert and be regular members of the parish) she would relax and be less intense. 

I honestly cannot think of any way to tell her that she makes me uncomfortable with the intensity of her questioning without sounding rude.  Which, of course, I would want to avoid.

Edited to clarify:

I have no concrete reason to believe that she is disapproving of home education and it is entirely possible that my reaction to her questions are an overreaction.  It's just that the questions feel as though they are more intensely asked and the answers more carefully scrutinized (almost like a test) than any I've been asked in the 8 years that we've home schooling. 

It is interesting she is so concerned about the education your daughter is receiving at home (especially since your daughter is testing so well) when you consider how public education is failing on so many fronts for a variety of reasons. I live in California and work part time in a public middle school as an aide in class. Ironically, I have taken the job in order to afford sending my son to a private Catholic all boys high school. In the first two weeks of high school, my son wrote more essays than he did in the four years he attended public middle school. He is struggling with grammar and didn't know the first thing about diagramming a sentence (thanks to the California public education system).  And now that I am privy to the private conversations of the public middle teachers, I hear all kinds of stories which confirm what I have thought all long. They all laugh at the whole language debacle of the late 1980s and early 1990s. Now they are poking fun at the "new" math curriculum they must use. Public education in California has turned into a giant experiment that is failing miserably.

Oh, and the thought your daughter isn't being socialized properly is laughable. Most of my son's male acquaintances in middle school acted like immature imbeciles. In contrast, one of his best friends at church is a sweet, mature young man who has been homeschooled his whole life. His other best buddy was homeschooled during his elementary years and now attends a different Catholic high school. Both of these young men are intelligent, polite, and comfortable in their own skin.

I also would like to add that the priest's wife point of view is representative of only one. I don't know if it really makes sense to allow one person's opinions about education to effect the decision to convert. You will find many Orthodox communities in North America that would support home schooling. In fact some communities have started their own private schools to avoid sending their children to public school.

[GreekChef]

Presbytera Mari,

Thank you.  I realize that this is an odd topic.  I believe she has a doctorate in education. 

I think part of my discomfort stems from the fact that she's also questioned my daughter about what subjects she's studying, what social activities she's involved in.  It's different, in tone, from the usual questions of curiosity (or even hostility) that we've encountered in the past.  Perhaps after a while (if we were to convert and be regular members of the parish) she would relax and be less intense. 

I honestly cannot think of any way to tell her that she makes me uncomfortable with the intensity of her questioning without sounding rude.  Which, of course, I would want to avoid.

Edited to clarify:

I have no concrete reason to believe that she is disapproving of home education and it is entirely possible that my reaction to her questions are an overreaction.  It's just that the questions feel as though they are more intensely asked and the answers more carefully scrutinized (almost like a test) than any I've been asked in the 8 years that we've home schooling. 

It is somewhat disconcerting to be grilled and I can imagine watching your child being unnecessarily questioned by someone in a position like the Presbytera you speak of must be really difficult.

I like Crucifer's suggestion of simply responding "why do you ask?"  Maybe that would open some dialogue.  You might even say something like, "Presbytera, I appreciate your concern and your interest.  Is there something that I can say to assure you and put your worries to rest?  My daughter feels, from the questions that you've asked, as though you don't approve.  I want to make sure that I have explained the system and our reasons such that you are not so concerned anymore."  This would indicate you want to give her one LAST explanation and thus end the conversation for good, as well as illustrating that her questioning your daughter is having negative effects and you don't like it.

Hope that's a little more helpful...

In Christ,
Presbytera Mari

[ialmisry]

You could always try asking her "Why do you ask?" and then waiting for her answer. Also mention to her that you would rather she not question your daughter and direct all questions to you.

Yes, and if she pushes it, say that your daughter and yourself have been tested by the educational powers that be and passed.  Before that happens, maybe you might drop the hint that you prefer rather that people ask you, and not your daughter, to detail her curriculum beyond the "so what are you studying in school" questions.

Btw, I teach in the inner city, right now (by choice) in the public school for troubled students, where the next stop for them is literally jail.

as a practical matter, are you friends enough with someone in the parish who might clue you in on why the presbytera is picking your brains, and perhaps intercede?

[ytterbiumanalyst]

Presbytera Mari,

Thank you.  I realize that this is an odd topic.  I believe she has a doctorate in education. 

That may be the only issue. I get questions like those from Ed.D.'s quite often. The vast majority of the time they really are interested in what you are teaching, because they really are interested in all children's education.

I have no concrete reason to believe that she is disapproving of home education and it is entirely possible that my reaction to her questions are an overreaction.  It's just that the questions feel as though they are more intensely asked and the answers more carefully scrutinized (almost like a test) than any I've been asked in the 8 years that we've home schooling. 

This may just be her personality. Many Ed.D.'s I've known have had rather intense personalities, though they generally are very kind people when you get to know them.

In the first two weeks of high school, my son wrote more essays than he did in the four years he attended public middle school. He is struggling with grammar and didn't know the first thing about diagramming a sentence (thanks to the California public education system).

I'm interested to know why you feel diagramming a sentence is an essential part of the language arts curriculum.

I hear you on the grammar issue. Teaching high school communication arts, I feel like I'm having to make up for wasted time in the middle schools. I'm afraid many of the most qualified middle school teachers are drawn to high schools instead because of this perception that children this age are "immature imbeciles." Children will be children, and because of the hormonal changes of this age it is perfectly natural for children--especially the boys--to display an immaturity that was not present before the onset of puberty. There is hope: Usually by eighth grade, the girls have matured significantly (the boys take until tenth grade), and they are ready to receive the life skills training that will help them to develop good work ethics and social skills that they will require to have a good life as an adult.

[SolEX01]

Presbytera Mari,

Thank you.  I realize that this is an odd topic.  I believe she has a doctorate in education.

A few Orthodox Hierarchs are also Ed.D's, FWIW.  Source for below

Bp. THOMAS was enthroned as Bishop of Oakland and the East at St. George Cathedral in Pittsburgh (Borough of Oakland), Pennsylvania, on May 6, 2005. In August of 2006, Bp. THOMAS was awarded a Doctorate in Education from California Coast University

Although CCU is a well-known distance education program, Bishop Thomas also worked as a public school teacher, as a layman.

Now, there are also articles questioning the workload required to obtain an Ed.D.  Source

One fantasy of a doctor in education ... is that of an academically versatile person rich in general knowledge and able to direct a diverse group of specialists in all fields. The reality is quite the opposite. Perhaps no group of people in the [education] Establishment is as academically weak ...

To substantiate this, we have only to look at their graduate school curriculum. Administrators generally come from undergraduate schools of education, where they studied barely more arts and sciences than a graduate of a two-year community college. Then they go on to take a master's and a doctorate in education. What do these programs look like in content? Are they well balanced between administration and the liberal arts?

Ask the Presbytera what was her Ed.D thesis next time she wants to talk about Home Schooling....

Please forgive me for my knee-jerk reaction the first time around.   

[Tallitot]

The questioning your daughter is the worst part IMO. Things like that can leave a bad taste in a child's mouth about church. I've known folks who stopped attending church as adults because of something unsettling a well meaning adult at church did or said to them as a child.

[Heorhij]

Is there anyway to politely tell the priest's wife that she's really crossing a line with the intensity of her questions?

But of course! Why not? Who is she, a goddess or something? Just come up to her and speak your mind.

And that's, of course, NOT a "reason not to convert."

[tuesdayschild]

I like Crucifer's suggestion of simply responding "why do you ask?"  Maybe that would open some dialogue.  You might even say something like, "Presbytera, I appreciate your concern and your interest.  Is there something that I can say to assure you and put your worries to rest?  My daughter feels, from the questions that you've asked, as though you don't approve.  I want to make sure that I have explained the system and our reasons such that you are not so concerned anymore."  This would indicate you want to give her one LAST explanation and thus end the conversation for good, as well as illustrating that her questioning your daughter is having negative effects and you don't like it.

Well said!

[Tallitot]

Just because someone asks a question doesn't mean you're obligated to answer.
Etiquette provides you with some good ways out...."That's personal, I'd rather not talk about it. I think I'll go get another cup coffee...."

[LBK]

But of course! Why not? Who is she, a goddess or something? Just come up to her and speak your mind.

And that's, of course, NOT a "reason not to convert."

Well said, Heorhij! Since when did "secular" education interfere with one's adherence and understanding of Orthodoxy? Look at some of our greatest saints, such as the Cappadocian Fathers: They received the finest classical (pagan, if you must) education available at the time. Yet it is beyond question that they were spiritual giants in faith.

Does the decision to convert hinge on the opinion of one man or one woman? Or is it on the heart recognising the true faith? Carole, take the advice of those who have posted, and not let this well-meaning but misguided woman deter you from the most important step you will take in your life. Orthodoxy is about the heart, and about faith, not about the opinions of others, priest's wives or otherwise. Stand fast in your faith. There are, and will be, plenty of people willing to help you.

[Carole]

I suppose by "reason not to convert" I meant that in addition to a plethora of issues to theology and practice to consider I am confronted with a desire to not go to the parish hall after the Divine Liturgy because I dread the education question du jour.  I also hesitate to have the priest and his wife to our home to discuss the issue of conversion because I dread the possibility that the conversation will veer toward something I find to be completely irrelevant to the main issue.

Part of my concern is that I am a confrontational and abrasive person by nature.  I am wickedly stubborn and high opinionated.  When I feel that I am "backed into a corner" or that I am being grilled I am often not particularly tactful and I worry that I might say something I would later regret. 

I know that she is just another person and not a queen or a goddess.  But as the wife of the priest of a small parish she is someone we would be dealing with frequently.  Offending her could make things difficult. 

[SolEX01]

Part of my concern is that I am a confrontational and abrasive person by nature.  I am wickedly stubborn and high opinionated.

So was the Apostle Paul....  He put up with the "thorns in his side" to preach the Gospel.  It's your call whether to find another Church or "stay at home" with Catholicism.

When I feel that I am "backed into a corner" or that I am being grilled I am often not particularly tactful and I worry that I might say something I would later regret.

I've been there, done that, pray for Grace next time.   

I know that she is just another person and not a queen or a goddess.  But as the wife of the priest of a small parish she is someone we would be dealing with frequently.  Offending her could make things difficult.

Again, it's your call.  People here have provided advice on different approaches to take when dealing with the small town Presbytera.  If there is a larger Orthodox Church a little further away, attend that Church.   

[GreekChef]

I suppose by "reason not to convert" I meant that in addition to a plethora of issues to theology and practice to consider I am confronted with a desire to not go to the parish hall after the Divine Liturgy because I dread the education question du jour.  I also hesitate to have the priest and his wife to our home to discuss the issue of conversion because I dread the possibility that the conversation will veer toward something I find to be completely irrelevant to the main issue.

Part of my concern is that I am a confrontational and abrasive person by nature.  I am wickedly stubborn and high opinionated.  When I feel that I am "backed into a corner" or that I am being grilled I am often not particularly tactful and I worry that I might say something I would later regret. 

I know that she is just another person and not a queen or a goddess.  But as the wife of the priest of a small parish she is someone we would be dealing with frequently.  Offending her could make things difficult. 

It makes me sad to think that you would leave the parish (parish, not faith) because of the Presbytera.  It also makes me sad that you would not have them into your home because of her grilling you.  I'm not saying this as an indictment of you, as I see that the problem is hers.  It makes me, personally, all the more cognizant of how much impact what I say in our parish can have.  I'm sure that she doesn't realize the impact what she is saying has on you and your precarious position as a possible convert.  I would hate to think that something I would say would drive something away.  And I would pray that people would tell me when I have overstepped my bounds with them personally.  I would imagine that she feels the same way (at least I would hope she does).

You say you're stubborn, etc.  Don't be too down on yourself for being the way you are.  God made you and He loves you, no matter what the Presbytera or anyone else may think of you.  Just pray for God to help you say the right thing.  I'm sure He'll help you.

[Thomas]

Carole ,

As you have seen above many Orthodox Christians have chosen to Homeschool their children. The most common response I have heard about why is "To raise my children more fully holding an Orthodox World view rather than a secular world view that public schooling provides." It seems to shut up most critics.

If you haven't already, provide the Presbyterva with the name and website of your accredited school that provides your material and testing.  I commend you for this, many Orthodox Homeschoolers forget this aspect of schooling---This shows the efforts you have made to go beyond what many homeschoolers have done, i.e. established a standard of excellence and measure of your child's achievement.

Most professional civil educators have a great concern that Home school kids while excelling in education, fall down is social graces and socialization. This is a myth held by most secular educators, in that many homeschoolers are members of local homeschool associations that arrange play days for younger children, encourage participation in community sports (football, soccer, basket ball) and in some larger communities even have established bands and orchestras for the children. A local one near where I live has a science lab taught by parents with appropriate degrees at a community college to give lab experience to high school age members of the co-op. Beyond this often these children are very active in the Orthodox Church youth groups and scouting, Brownies, Campfire, Civil Airpatrol etc.  These all offer excellent opportunities for home schoolers to socialize.

As always, if this is an issue, meet with your Orthodox priest to discuss the issue. I have know priests who will ask their wife to back off, remember his has the charisms give at ordination to pastor you, his wife does not.

Thomas

Corrected for spelling - Thomas

[scamandrius]

BUT ... the priest's wife is some sort of education professional or social worker and she always questions me (rather intently) on what we're teaching, what sort of books we use, what kind of socialization our daughter gets.  Quite honestly - it makes me both nervous and defensive. 

Education professors are notoriously anti-school choice and anti-homeschooling.  Their job (if you can call it that) is to train future teachers in the public schools.  Of course, most of what they "teach" is basically ridiculous. Experience makes up for so much more than what I learned under them put together.  I've been teaching now for 10 years and I can say that education courses are worthless and the people who teach them (an Ed.D. is not a doctorate in my opinion) are irrelevant.

Just because she is the priest's wife does not give her any extra allowance to question what you do with your children.  Unfortunately, I know several presbyteras, matushkas and khouriyas who think, because of their marriage to the priest, that they are secondary priests and feel it incumbent upon themselves to give advice to others even if it is undesired.  Don't be confrontational about it, but tell her that her questions are going beyond the merely inquisitive.

[ialmisry]

BUT ... the priest's wife is some sort of education professional or social worker and she always questions me (rather intently) on what we're teaching, what sort of books we use, what kind of socialization our daughter gets.  Quite honestly - it makes me both nervous and defensive. 

Education professors are notoriously anti-school choice and anti-homeschooling.  Their job (if you can call it that) is to train future teachers in the public schools.  Of course, most of what they "teach" is basically ridiculous. Experience makes up for so much more than what I learned under them put together.  I've been teaching now for 10 years and I can say that education courses are worthless and the people who teach them (an Ed.D. is not a doctorate in my opinion) are irrelevant.

Just because she is the priest's wife does not give her any extra allowance to question what you do with your children.  Unfortunately, I know several presbyteras, matushkas and khouriyas who think, because of their marriage to the priest, that they are secondary priests and feel it incumbent upon themselves to give advice to others even if it is undesired.  Don't be confrontational about it, but tell her that her questions are going beyond the merely inquisitive.

and going to the inquisitorial.

I work in the same public school system I went to.  Now, a lot of resources have to be spent on security, police and metal detectors.  We had none of that, nor none of the need.  And the change isn't from underfunding.

[GreekChef]

Just because she is the priest's wife does not give her any extra allowance to question what you do with your children.  Unfortunately, I know several presbyteras, matushkas and khouriyas who think, because of their marriage to the priest, that they are secondary priests and feel it incumbent upon themselves to give advice to others even if it is undesired.  Don't be confrontational about it, but tell her that her questions are going beyond the merely inquisitive.

I could not agree more!!!!

[NorthernPines]

Is there anyway to politely tell the priest's wife that she's really crossing a line with the intensity of her questions?

Well I can't give you any better advice than has already been given, but I just wanted you to know that you're not in such situations alone. I myself for a time was drilled by a priest who just had no concept of boundaries and wanted to know every single detail of my personal life. (even though he was not my spiritual father, and of course a real spiritual father doesn't try to find out WHY you went fishing on Friday night)

All I can say is I can sympathize and whatever you do, don't bury what's happening down deep, because that will cause you a lot of spiritual issues and maybe even manifest itself as physical illness. (eventually, it did for me)

 I do believe that Orthodoxy is the one true Church and that it is Christ's body on earth, but people are people and people, even priests, bishops etc sometimes can be down right wrong, if not theologically, then at least in good manners. If need be, as others have said, find a different parish. but maybe after a using some of the suggestions here, things will get better.

[ytterbiumanalyst]

Education professors are notoriously anti-school choice and anti-homeschooling.  Their job (if you can call it that) is to train future teachers in the public schools.  Of course, most of what they "teach" is basically ridiculous. Experience makes up for so much more than what I learned under them put together.  I've been teaching now for 10 years and I can say that education courses are worthless and the people who teach them (an Ed.D. is not a doctorate in my opinion) are irrelevant.

We're grateful for the opportunities given us, aren't we?

[Carole]

Thank you everyone.  Your insight and advice has been excellent (as it most always is here).

As any convert knows there is so much involved in investigating and considering the idea of converting ... From the need to understand and believe theological issues to how life as an Orthodox Christian "works" to how to tell family and friends as well as the fear of leaving behind one church to embrace another.

I suppose this was just one more thing on the list of very heavy issues.  I sort of felt that on top of every thing else (the "real" issues) this discomfort and fear of being grilled (or worse having my daughter grilled) about our educational choices was just the straw the broke the camel's back so-to-speak.

I am certain that we will continue to advance a few steps and then take a step back for a while as we are trying to do this as a family.  But at least I know that I can lay this issue to rest easily enough.

Thank you all again!