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Author Topic: Pope to Patriarch: We need unity faster!  (Read 20516 times) Average Rating: 0
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Orthodoc
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« on: October 09, 2008, 12:00:46 PM »

Pope to Patriarch: We Need Unity Faster                
2008-10-07    
Benedict XVI Tells Alexy II the Times Urge Haste

By Inmaculada Álvarez

VATICAN CITY, OCT. 6, 2008 (Zenit.org).- Benedict XVI sent a personal message to Russian Orthodox Patriarch Alexy II saying that modern times call for a hastening of the journey toward Christian unity.

The Sept. 22 message was hand-delivered to Alexy II by the archbishop of Naples, Cardinal Crescenzio Sepe, on an official visit to Moscow at the invitation of the patriarch. The cardinal gave the message to the patriarch in a meeting that lasted a little more than an hour last Thursday.

"I have a deep affection for all the Orthodox brethren, and I am particularly close to them in these most recent days when conflict has caused significant suffering to peoples so dear to me," the Holy Father said. "I never cease to offer daily prayers for peace, asking the Lord that the appeals of Your Holiness to resolve all hostility for the good of the nations may be heeded."

He added: "Faith in Our Lord Jesus Christ is a bond that unites hearts in a profound way and invites us all to strengthen our commitment to manifest to the world a shared witness of living together respectfully and peacefully.

"Our times, marked so often by conflict and grief, make it even more necessary to hasten the journey toward the full unity of all the disciples of Christ, so that the joyous message of salvation may be spread to all humanity."

Getting closer

Cardinal Sepe told Vatican Radio on the day of his meeting with Alexy II that the Orthodox and Catholic Churches are growing ever closer, "as the patriarch himself emphasized with emotion."

"The impression is that a very important step has been taken to create a climate of closeness and mutual respect, of fraternity and friendship," he added.

Bishop Vincenzo Paglia of Terni, president of the Italian bishops' ecumenism commission, who was also present in the meeting with Alexy II, said that the process of growing closer should proceed with meetings between the various pastors of both Churches.

On the path to unity, the bishop added, "meetings between experts are no longer sufficient." Rather, ecumenism "is a coming together of the Churches."

And, Bishop Paglia affirmed, ecumenism is more and more "a demand of contemporary society."

"The harmony between the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church is ever more evident," he said, referring to the challenges presented to all Christians in Europe and contemporary society. "Certain limits and challenges can only be faced from a perspective of unity.

===========

Unity lies in the hands of the Pope and his repudiating all innovations since the schism including Papal supremacy!  It's all very simple, let's all go back to what we shared, practiced, and believed when we were united and build from there.  We Orthodox Catholics are already there.  So, once again, it's lies in the Popes hands.


(Orthodoc)



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« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2008, 12:35:20 PM »

Quote
"Bishop Paglia affirmed, ecumenism is more and more "a demand of contemporary society.""

And therein lies the root of the heresy that is ecumenism.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2008, 12:35:44 PM by Heracleides » Logged

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« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2008, 12:58:03 PM »

With an upsurge of Islamic fundamentalism, the increase of the Islamic population in traditionally Catholic lands and the decrease of child births among Western Europeans in Western Europe, the religious leaders of Western Europe are in "panic" mode and want to make sure that their alliances with their religious counterparts to the East are in good condition. However, strengthening ties with anybody at the risk of hurting your own self-identity and religious ethos is counterproductive not only to Orthodox but also to Catholics as well. Must we believe that God wants us to strengthen the ties with Rome only on a superficial basis, based on panic and impulse religiosity?...

But wait a second, didn't the Pope just recently say that the Eastern Churches are "deformed" in some sense? and now he wants to commune and unite with this "deformed" body?...how come?....why the sudden change of heart?

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« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2008, 01:13:10 PM »

I was reading somewhere (maybe this board) or maybe it was one of those rare visits to Mo' Nachos, that someone thought that the biggest hurdle with re-uniting with Rome wouldn't be theological, but practical.  He thought it would be liturgical discipline...and the lack thereof from the Roman side.

From hearing about all those "Clown masses" and other abominations, this speculation sounds plausible to me.
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« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2008, 01:19:56 PM »

With an upsurge of Islamic fundamentalism, the increase of the Islamic population in traditionally Catholic lands and the decrease of child births among Western Europeans in Western Europe, the religious leaders of Western Europe are in "panic" mode and want to make sure that their alliances with their religious counterparts to the East are in good condition. However, strengthening ties with anybody at the risk of hurting your own self-identity and religious ethos is counterproductive not only to Orthodox but also to Catholics as well. Must we believe that God wants us to strengthen the ties with Rome only on a superficial basis, based on panic and impulse religiosity?...

But wait a second, didn't the Pope just recently say that the Eastern Churches are "deformed" in some sense? and now he wants to commune and unite with this "deformed" body?...how come?....why the sudden change of heart?

+

AMEN!  perfect example on how Rome continously speaks out of both sides of its mouth at the same time.  The previous Pope was an expert on this.  And playing the western press.

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« Reply #5 on: October 09, 2008, 01:33:39 PM »

Bleh...as an Orthodox Christian who attends a Roman Catholic university, this statement makes me want to vomit, lol.  While I recognize that the state of the Roman Catholic Church varies from place to place, and that in my particular place it is probably a rather extreme example, still, the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church just seem worlds apart to me.  I think the problem to reunion isn't just lack of liturgical discipline, it's the lack of any discipline!! Here's some examples of Catholicism at my school:

1) At the Sunday mass, they almost never say the Nicene Creed, the hymns are rarely about Christ but are vague poetic abominations that somewhat relate to the THEME of the feast (for example, I once went to mass during the Easter season and the hymns were about flowers and the rebirth of spring and such).
2) At all masses, everyone is invited to receive communion.  "At the Chapel, our custom is that everyone may come forward."
3) All events begin with prayers to "The God who has no name and who is known by all names"
4) Campus Ministry is led by a non-Catholic.  In fact, to return to number 2 on this list, she receives communion all the time at mass, even though she is Episcopalian. When she's such an important figure in the school, you can't argue that the priest just "doesn't know" that she isn't Catholic.
5) Campus Ministry hosts a "Coming Out Retreat" every year when gay and lesbian students go on a retreat and talk about being gay and "spiritual" and I know for a fact that people end up having gay sex on this "retreat".
6) The theology classes I had to take were such garbage. We learned that God has no power to prevent any evil in the world, that God is like a small child who is just acting up to get our attention and we need to just ignore Him and we will go away, that all religions are equal except Christianity which is of the devil, that the newest insight is always the best, that if you actually believe anything you are ignorant and stupid, that Christianity is no longer about the sacraments or the Gospel because it's about social justice now, and many other things...
7) I am part of the Pro-Life club and Jesuit priests have been openly hostile to us and our existence as a club.
8 ) They have a mass for "National Coming Out Day"
9) One of our buildings is named after a deposed archbishop, while another is named after a man who was declared a heretic by the Catholic Church.
10) The school requires theology majors to take classes in liberation theology, which has been condemned as heretical by the pope.

Hm, I could go on but that's enough for now.  In any case, if the Catholic Church is like that, I don't see how anyone in their right mind could ever think that we are close to reunion.


Fixed the dreaded automatic smiley bug--8 ) = Cool when the whitespace is removed--in the above  -PtA
« Last Edit: October 09, 2008, 02:01:57 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: October 09, 2008, 02:00:56 PM »

Bleh...as an Orthodox Christian who attends a Roman Catholic university, this statement makes me want to vomit, lol.  While I recognize that the state of the Roman Catholic Church varies from place to place, and that in my particular place it is probably a rather extreme example, still, the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church just seem worlds apart to me.  I think the problem to reunion isn't just lack of liturgical discipline, it's the lack of any discipline!! Here's some examples of Catholicism at my school:

1) At the Sunday mass, they almost never say the Nicene Creed, the hymns are rarely about Christ but are vague poetic abominations that somewhat relate to the THEME of the feast (for example, I once went to mass during the Easter season and the hymns were about flowers and the rebirth of spring and such).
2) At all masses, everyone is invited to receive communion.  "At the Chapel, our custom is that everyone may come forward."
3) All events begin with prayers to "The God who has no name and who is known by all names"
4) Campus Ministry is led by a non-Catholic.  In fact, to return to number 2 on this list, she receives communion all the time at mass, even though she is Episcopalian. When she's such an important figure in the school, you can't argue that the priest just "doesn't know" that she isn't Catholic.
5) Campus Ministry hosts a "Coming Out Retreat" every year when gay and lesbian students go on a retreat and talk about being gay and "spiritual" and I know for a fact that people end up having gay sex on this "retreat".
6) The theology classes I had to take were such garbage. We learned that God has no power to prevent any evil in the world, that God is like a small child who is just acting up to get our attention and we need to just ignore Him and we will go away, that all religions are equal except Christianity which is of the devil, that the newest insight is always the best, that if you actually believe anything you are ignorant and stupid, that Christianity is no longer about the sacraments or the Gospel because it's about social justice now, and many other things...
7) I am part of the Pro-Life club and Jesuit priests have been openly hostile to us and our existence as a club.
8 ) They have a mass for "National Coming Out Day"
9) One of our buildings is named after a deposed archbishop, while another is named after a man who was declared a heretic by the Catholic Church.
10) The school requires theology majors to take classes in liberation theology, which has been condemned as heretical by the pope.

Hm, I could go on but that's enough for now.  In any case, if the Catholic Church is like that, I don't see how anyone in their right mind could ever think that we are close to reunion.

Wow, that's horrible. I don't even know what to say.  And the depressing thing is nothing is ever done about any of it.  I've seen and heard a lot, and I don't get why the hierarchy is uninterested in cleaning out the rot. Especially if the Catholic Church wants "unity" with the Orthodox.


Also edited to fix the 8 ) smiley.  --EofK
« Last Edit: October 09, 2008, 02:23:58 PM by EofK » Logged
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« Reply #7 on: October 09, 2008, 02:16:04 PM »


5) Campus Ministry hosts a "Coming Out Retreat" every year when gay and lesbian students go on a retreat and talk about being gay and "spiritual" and I know for a fact that people end up having gay sex on this "retreat".

I'm afraid to ask how you know that for a "fact". Shocked
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« Reply #8 on: October 09, 2008, 05:58:28 PM »

... We learned that God has no power to prevent any evil in the world, ...

I tend to believe the root cause of that specific attitude might be the error of Blessed Augustine about dual principle within trinity, expanded as dual approach to the issue of good and evil.

Quote
"Bishop Paglia affirmed, ecumenism is more and more "a demand of contemporary society.""

And therein lies the root of the heresy that is ecumenism.


Ditto.
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« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2008, 07:06:44 PM »

Bleh...as an Orthodox Christian who attends a Roman Catholic university, this statement makes me want to vomit, lol.  While I recognize that the state of the Roman Catholic Church varies from place to place, and that in my particular place it is probably a rather extreme example, still, the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church just seem worlds apart to me.  I think the problem to reunion isn't just lack of liturgical discipline, it's the lack of any discipline!! Here's some examples of Catholicism at my school:

1) At the Sunday mass, they almost never say the Nicene Creed, the hymns are rarely about Christ but are vague poetic abominations that somewhat relate to the THEME of the feast (for example, I once went to mass during the Easter season and the hymns were about flowers and the rebirth of spring and such).
2) At all masses, everyone is invited to receive communion.  "At the Chapel, our custom is that everyone may come forward."
3) All events begin with prayers to "The God who has no name and who is known by all names"
4) Campus Ministry is led by a non-Catholic.  In fact, to return to number 2 on this list, she receives communion all the time at mass, even though she is Episcopalian. When she's such an important figure in the school, you can't argue that the priest just "doesn't know" that she isn't Catholic.
5) Campus Ministry hosts a "Coming Out Retreat" every year when gay and lesbian students go on a retreat and talk about being gay and "spiritual" and I know for a fact that people end up having gay sex on this "retreat".
6) The theology classes I had to take were such garbage. We learned that God has no power to prevent any evil in the world, that God is like a small child who is just acting up to get our attention and we need to just ignore Him and we will go away, that all religions are equal except Christianity which is of the devil, that the newest insight is always the best, that if you actually believe anything you are ignorant and stupid, that Christianity is no longer about the sacraments or the Gospel because it's about social justice now, and many other things...
7) I am part of the Pro-Life club and Jesuit priests have been openly hostile to us and our existence as a club.
8 ) They have a mass for "National Coming Out Day"
9) One of our buildings is named after a deposed archbishop, while another is named after a man who was declared a heretic by the Catholic Church.
10) The school requires theology majors to take classes in liberation theology, which has been condemned as heretical by the pope.

Hm, I could go on but that's enough for now.  In any case, if the Catholic Church is like that, I don't see how anyone in their right mind could ever think that we are close to reunion.


Fixed the dreaded automatic smiley bug--8 ) = Cool when the whitespace is removed--in the above  -PtA

My priest made the wise argument that he prefers Ultramontanism in the Vatican now to stop the chaos that local control would bring in the US.

On another forum someone said: We also have the pending TAC, which I try to pray for daily. I could also see the Syriac Orthodox entering into Communion with Rome, seeing has how they have a very strong Petrine theology.

It's probably not going to happen in large amounts, but reunion is happening slowly. In the case with the Byzantine Orthodox, it will have to be one National Church at a time entering into union with the See of Rome. The same applies with the Oriental Orthodox as well.

So I guess we are supposed to be picked off one by one, like a pack of wolves on stray sheep.

Is Balamand officially dead?
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« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2008, 09:44:44 PM »

I was reading somewhere (maybe this board) or maybe it was one of those rare visits to Mo' Nachos, that someone thought that the biggest hurdle with re-uniting with Rome wouldn't be theological, but practical.  He thought it would be liturgical discipline...and the lack thereof from the Roman side.

From hearing about all those "Clown masses" and other abominations, this speculation sounds plausible to me.

I really think we need to keep in mind that abuses on the level of "clown masses" really are extremely rare.
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« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2008, 09:47:19 PM »

With an upsurge of Islamic fundamentalism, the increase of the Islamic population in traditionally Catholic lands and the decrease of child births among Western Europeans in Western Europe, the religious leaders of Western Europe are in "panic" mode and want to make sure that their alliances with their religious counterparts to the East are in good condition. However, strengthening ties with anybody at the risk of hurting your own self-identity and religious ethos is counterproductive not only to Orthodox but also to Catholics as well. Must we believe that God wants us to strengthen the ties with Rome only on a superficial basis, based on panic and impulse religiosity?...

But wait a second, didn't the Pope just recently say that the Eastern Churches are "deformed" in some sense? and now he wants to commune and unite with this "deformed" body?...how come?....why the sudden change of heart?

+

AMEN!  perfect example on how Rome continously speaks out of both sides of its mouth at the same time.  The previous Pope was an expert on this.  And playing the western press.

Orthodoc
I am not quite sure how His Holiness is speaking "out of both sides of his mouth". Yes, we Catholics believe that the Eastern Orthodox are missing something, are not quite right. But how does that conflict with our desire for unity? In fact, the biggest thing that we think you are lacking is full communion with Christ's Church. This would immediately be remedied by unity. There is no contradiction in what the Pope has said. I think sometimes we all get overly sensative and look for reasons to argue. Myself included.
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« Reply #12 on: October 09, 2008, 09:50:01 PM »

Bleh...as an Orthodox Christian who attends a Roman Catholic university, this statement makes me want to vomit, lol.  While I recognize that the state of the Roman Catholic Church varies from place to place, and that in my particular place it is probably a rather extreme example, still, the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church just seem worlds apart to me.  I think the problem to reunion isn't just lack of liturgical discipline, it's the lack of any discipline!! Here's some examples of Catholicism at my school:

1) At the Sunday mass, they almost never say the Nicene Creed, the hymns are rarely about Christ but are vague poetic abominations that somewhat relate to the THEME of the feast (for example, I once went to mass during the Easter season and the hymns were about flowers and the rebirth of spring and such).
2) At all masses, everyone is invited to receive communion.  "At the Chapel, our custom is that everyone may come forward."
3) All events begin with prayers to "The God who has no name and who is known by all names"
4) Campus Ministry is led by a non-Catholic.  In fact, to return to number 2 on this list, she receives communion all the time at mass, even though she is Episcopalian. When she's such an important figure in the school, you can't argue that the priest just "doesn't know" that she isn't Catholic.
5) Campus Ministry hosts a "Coming Out Retreat" every year when gay and lesbian students go on a retreat and talk about being gay and "spiritual" and I know for a fact that people end up having gay sex on this "retreat".
6) The theology classes I had to take were such garbage. We learned that God has no power to prevent any evil in the world, that God is like a small child who is just acting up to get our attention and we need to just ignore Him and we will go away, that all religions are equal except Christianity which is of the devil, that the newest insight is always the best, that if you actually believe anything you are ignorant and stupid, that Christianity is no longer about the sacraments or the Gospel because it's about social justice now, and many other things...
7) I am part of the Pro-Life club and Jesuit priests have been openly hostile to us and our existence as a club.
8 ) They have a mass for "National Coming Out Day"
9) One of our buildings is named after a deposed archbishop, while another is named after a man who was declared a heretic by the Catholic Church.
10) The school requires theology majors to take classes in liberation theology, which has been condemned as heretical by the pope.

Hm, I could go on but that's enough for now.  In any case, if the Catholic Church is like that, I don't see how anyone in their right mind could ever think that we are close to reunion.


Fixed the dreaded automatic smiley bug--8 ) = Cool when the whitespace is removed--in the above  -PtA
This is very sad indeed. I once atteneded an Orthodox Church here in new mexico where the homily was nothing more than a promotion of a "social gospel". Also there is an orthodox priest here in NM who has told many people that the Orthodox Church is not against homosexual relationships. Its sad when Christians, Catholic or Orthodox, don't live up to their baptismal vows.
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« Reply #13 on: October 09, 2008, 10:03:15 PM »

I don't really see how the One, Holy, Apostolic Church can be absorbed little by little into the Roman Catholic Church... I'm willing to agree that some jurisdictions possibly may join the Roman Catholics (though probably this is very remote), but not all will, because the One, Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church will still exist...
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« Reply #14 on: October 09, 2008, 11:08:01 PM »

I was reading somewhere (maybe this board) or maybe it was one of those rare visits to Mo' Nachos, that someone thought that the biggest hurdle with re-uniting with Rome wouldn't be theological, but practical.  He thought it would be liturgical discipline...and the lack thereof from the Roman side.

From hearing about all those "Clown masses" and other abominations, this speculation sounds plausible to me.

I really think we need to keep in mind that abuses on the level of "clown masses" really are extremely rare.

So goes the oft-repeated mantra of Vatican apologists.

In actuality, we need to keep in mind that the liturgical outrages amongst Catholics, and Roman Catholics in particular, are widespread worldwide and completely out of control in some regions.

And yes Papist, I will provide you the factual evidence to illustrate this ONCE AGAIN if need be.
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« Reply #15 on: October 10, 2008, 08:44:13 AM »

I am not quite sure how His Holiness is speaking "out of both sides of his mouth". Yes, we Catholics believe that the Eastern Orthodox are missing something, are not quite right. But how does that conflict with our desire for unity? In fact, the biggest thing that we think you are lacking is full communion with Christ's Church. This would immediately be remedied by unity. There is no contradiction in what the Pope has said. I think sometimes we all get overly sensative and look for reasons to argue. Myself included.

My dear friend, the view of Eastern and ORiental Orthodox Churches being defective DOES conflict with your desire for unity...let me demonstrate with this quote of yours:

Quote
the biggest thing that we think you are lacking is full communion with Christ's Church. This would immediately be remedied by unity.

See, that's the problem right there. "Full communion with Christ's Church"...is that suppossed to somehow imply that Eastern and Oriental ORthodox Churches aren't Christ's Church?......And who made YOU and Rome the judge of what we lack? Once you and your comrades let go of your condescending and pompous higher-than-thou, if I can borrow a term from our Baptist friends: Romish attitude....and come to the table with a heart full of humility like that of the Blessed Pope Gregory I, who was known NOT to lord over his authority but was instead known to be uneasy with the lofty tiles accorded to him and saw the Eastern Churches as full brothers and sisters in CHrist, without defect of any sort...then and ONLY THEN will any Orthodox, both clergymen and laypeople, take Rome's wishes seriously....

In Christ,

+
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« Reply #16 on: October 10, 2008, 08:54:53 AM »

Bleh...as an Orthodox Christian who attends a Roman Catholic university, this statement makes me want to vomit, lol.  While I recognize that the state of the Roman Catholic Church varies from place to place, and that in my particular place it is probably a rather extreme example, still, the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church just seem worlds apart to me.  I think the problem to reunion isn't just lack of liturgical discipline, it's the lack of any discipline!! Here's some examples of Catholicism at my school:

1) At the Sunday mass, they almost never say the Nicene Creed, the hymns are rarely about Christ but are vague poetic abominations that somewhat relate to the THEME of the feast (for example, I once went to mass during the Easter season and the hymns were about flowers and the rebirth of spring and such).
2) At all masses, everyone is invited to receive communion.  "At the Chapel, our custom is that everyone may come forward."
3) All events begin with prayers to "The God who has no name and who is known by all names"
4) Campus Ministry is led by a non-Catholic.  In fact, to return to number 2 on this list, she receives communion all the time at mass, even though she is Episcopalian. When she's such an important figure in the school, you can't argue that the priest just "doesn't know" that she isn't Catholic.
5) Campus Ministry hosts a "Coming Out Retreat" every year when gay and lesbian students go on a retreat and talk about being gay and "spiritual" and I know for a fact that people end up having gay sex on this "retreat".
6) The theology classes I had to take were such garbage. We learned that God has no power to prevent any evil in the world, that God is like a small child who is just acting up to get our attention and we need to just ignore Him and we will go away, that all religions are equal except Christianity which is of the devil, that the newest insight is always the best, that if you actually believe anything you are ignorant and stupid, that Christianity is no longer about the sacraments or the Gospel because it's about social justice now, and many other things...
7) I am part of the Pro-Life club and Jesuit priests have been openly hostile to us and our existence as a club.
8 ) They have a mass for "National Coming Out Day"
9) One of our buildings is named after a deposed archbishop, while another is named after a man who was declared a heretic by the Catholic Church.
10) The school requires theology majors to take classes in liberation theology, which has been condemned as heretical by the pope.

Hm, I could go on but that's enough for now.  In any case, if the Catholic Church is like that, I don't see how anyone in their right mind could ever think that we are close to reunion.


Fixed the dreaded automatic smiley bug--8 ) = Cool when the whitespace is removed--in the above  -PtA
What you have described above isn't Catholicism. Unfortunately, it's also the reason my family, longtime Irish Catholics, are no longer Catholic. They stopped going to church in the 1960s, and since then have come back (except me) only to the Protestant churches.
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« Reply #17 on: October 10, 2008, 09:15:11 AM »

I am not quite sure how His Holiness is speaking "out of both sides of his mouth". Yes, we Catholics believe that the Eastern Orthodox are missing something, are not quite right. But how does that conflict with our desire for unity? In fact, the biggest thing that we think you are lacking is full communion with Christ's Church. This would immediately be remedied by unity. There is no contradiction in what the Pope has said. I think sometimes we all get overly sensative and look for reasons to argue. Myself included.

My dear friend, the view of Eastern and ORiental Orthodox Churches being defective DOES conflict with your desire for unity...let me demonstrate with this quote of yours:

Quote
the biggest thing that we think you are lacking is full communion with Christ's Church. This would immediately be remedied by unity.

See, that's the problem right there. "Full communion with Christ's Church"...is that suppossed to somehow imply that Eastern and Oriental ORthodox Churches aren't Christ's Church?......And who made YOU and Rome the judge of what we lack? Once you and your comrades let go of your condescending and pompous higher-than-thou, if I can borrow a term from our Baptist friends: Romish attitude....and come to the table with a heart full of humility like that of the Blessed Pope Gregory I, who was known NOT to lord over his authority but was instead known to be uneasy with the lofty tiles accorded to him and saw the Eastern Churches as full brothers and sisters in CHrist, without defect of any sort...then and ONLY THEN will any Orthodox, both clergymen and laypeople, take Rome's wishes seriously....

In Christ,

+

I do have to say (with no offense intended) that this strikes me a little as the pot calling the kettle black.  Isn't this exactly what most Orthodox on this forum have said?  That the Catholic church lacks communion with Christ's church, that they AREN'T Christ's church, and in one thread, that they are followers of Satan?  Sounds more to me like it is US who need to lose OUR "pompous higher-than-thou attitude."  I think maybe we should all work a little on our own humility before judging the humility of others.  Guess it's a good thing that we are not the ones "coming to the table," at all.

Personally, I think we ARE called to unity, but I agree that we cannot unify with such serious problems unsolved.  But that's the key... I pray that the EP, Alexy, and the other Bishops who are involved in ecumenism will have the wisdom, discernment, and love to make sure that these problems are SOLVED, rather than OVERLOOKED before the churches come into communion.

I DO NOT believe that ecumenism itself is inherently heretical.  I believe ecumenism is a MUST for Christians, as Christ Himself commanded that we spread His gospel to all nations.  Is that not what ecumenism is?  Spreading of the gospel, the attempt to bring all people into the fold of Christ's church?  I will never understand how anyone can say that this is a bad thing.  The differentiation MUST be made that ecumenism is problematic only when compromises are made that sacrifice doctrine, dogma, liturgical practice, faith, etc.  Those are sacrifices that we have no right to make.  But compromise on PRACTICAL issues (I'll let you know when I think an example) is not in itself heretical.  Nobody said evangelism was going to be easy...

With love in Christ,
Presbytera Mari
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« Reply #18 on: October 10, 2008, 10:50:27 AM »

I am not quite sure how His Holiness is speaking "out of both sides of his mouth". Yes, we Catholics believe that the Eastern Orthodox are missing something, are not quite right. But how does that conflict with our desire for unity? In fact, the biggest thing that we think you are lacking is full communion with Christ's Church. This would immediately be remedied by unity. There is no contradiction in what the Pope has said. I think sometimes we all get overly sensative and look for reasons to argue. Myself included.

My dear friend, the view of Eastern and ORiental Orthodox Churches being defective DOES conflict with your desire for unity...let me demonstrate with this quote of yours:

Quote
the biggest thing that we think you are lacking is full communion with Christ's Church. This would immediately be remedied by unity.

See, that's the problem right there. "Full communion with Christ's Church"...is that suppossed to somehow imply that Eastern and Oriental ORthodox Churches aren't Christ's Church?......And who made YOU and Rome the judge of what we lack? Once you and your comrades let go of your condescending and pompous higher-than-thou, if I can borrow a term from our Baptist friends: Romish attitude....and come to the table with a heart full of humility like that of the Blessed Pope Gregory I, who was known NOT to lord over his authority but was instead known to be uneasy with the lofty tiles accorded to him and saw the Eastern Churches as full brothers and sisters in CHrist, without defect of any sort...then and ONLY THEN will any Orthodox, both clergymen and laypeople, take Rome's wishes seriously....

In Christ,

+

I do have to say (with no offense intended) that this strikes me a little as the pot calling the kettle black.  Isn't this exactly what most Orthodox on this forum have said?  That the Catholic church lacks communion with Christ's church, that they AREN'T Christ's church, and in one thread, that they are followers of Satan?  Sounds more to me like it is US who need to lose OUR "pompous higher-than-thou attitude."  I think maybe we should all work a little on our own humility before judging the humility of others.  Guess it's a good thing that we are not the ones "coming to the table," at all.

Personally, I think we ARE called to unity, but I agree that we cannot unify with such serious problems unsolved.  But that's the key... I pray that the EP, Alexy, and the other Bishops who are involved in ecumenism will have the wisdom, discernment, and love to make sure that these problems are SOLVED, rather than OVERLOOKED before the churches come into communion.

I DO NOT believe that ecumenism itself is inherently heretical.  I believe ecumenism is a MUST for Christians, as Christ Himself commanded that we spread His gospel to all nations.  Is that not what ecumenism is?  Spreading of the gospel, the attempt to bring all people into the fold of Christ's church?  I will never understand how anyone can say that this is a bad thing.  The differentiation MUST be made that ecumenism is problematic only when compromises are made that sacrifice doctrine, dogma, liturgical practice, faith, etc.  Those are sacrifices that we have no right to make.  But compromise on PRACTICAL issues (I'll let you know when I think an example) is not in itself heretical.  Nobody said evangelism was going to be easy...

With love in Christ,
Presbytera Mari

I completely agree with you. In my brief stay here, unfortunately one of the first things I noticed here among a few people here was the anti-Catholicism that they were spewing out...(to clarify, my post had entirely to do with Papists's explanation of how the Pope of Rome can in one breath say that all Eastern Churches are "defective" and then in the other breath say, "We must unite"....it has nothing to do with the Roman Catholic Church being the Church of Christ or Satan's or anyone else's) If the Catholics are seriously interested in seekign unity, they must display humility across the table. While I do agree with you that it is equally important that Orthodox men and women work on theirs as well, from an Orthodox perspective (and I hope you can agree with me on this as well), it was Rome who struck the first blow. As history progressed from then, I can say with honesty that both churches contributed to the broken state of Christ's Church (However, as an Oriental Orthodox, our history as Indian Orthodox has been pretty one-sided in that, it was the Catholics - via the Portuguese - who came through and destroyed our ancient Christian documents and subjugated the Ancient Indian Orthodox Church to the rule of the Pope....the only thing we did was fight back, and we got the scars to prove it...so our history is VERY different from that of the Byzantines). I do not think that ecumenism in and of itself is inherently heretical or anything like that. Rome, just like any other Church of Christ is just that....it is of Christ and since it is of Christ, no matter what has happened, unity and restoration is always a possibility....and we must work towards it. But as I said before, IMHO, Unity among churches of any sort, must not come at the expense of Orthodox doctrine and theology, for it is that which runs through the very veins of the Church...

+
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« Reply #19 on: October 10, 2008, 11:15:15 AM »

...
Is that not what ecumenism is?  Spreading of the gospel, the attempt to bring all people into the fold of Christ's church?

Should we be attempting to "bring" RC's "into the fold of Christ's Church"?

...Isn't this exactly what most Orthodox on this forum have said?  That the Catholic church lacks communion with Christ's church, that they AREN'T Christ's church, and in one thread, that they are followers of Satan? ...

Are they Church already or they are not? What is your stance, since I see two contradicting statement in one single preaching toned post.
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« Reply #20 on: October 10, 2008, 11:23:09 AM »

...
I DO NOT believe that ecumenism itself is inherently heretical. ...

I DO believe what's been believed by everyone, everywhere and in all times (as St. Vincent told us), and if I'm wrong somewhere I'm always grateful for correction.

Quote
Those who attack the Church of Christ by teaching that Christ's Church is divided into so-called "branches" which differ in doctrine and way of life, or that the Church does not exist visibly, but will be formed in the future when all "branches" or sects or denominations, and even religions will be united into one body; and who do not distinguish the priesthood and mysteries of the Church from those of the heretics, but say that the baptism and eucharist of heretics is effectual for salvation; therefore, to those who knowingly have communion with these aforementioned heretics or who advocate, disseminate, or defend their new heresy of Ecumenism under the pretext of brotherly love or the supposed unification of separated Christians, Anathema!
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« Reply #21 on: October 10, 2008, 11:35:36 AM »

... our history as Indian Orthodox has been pretty one-sided in that, it was the Catholics - via the Portuguese - who came through and ...

Have they ever repented for that? Did they apologize to you? Have they ever spoken about unity without the word "submit"? Not to mention "subjugate".

Personally, I can't see how anyone can "submitted" to be Christian. But, heck, I'm an Orthodox.

...my post had entirely to do with Papists's explanation of how the Pope of Rome can in one breath say that all Eastern Churches are "defective" and then in the other breath say, "We must unite"...

And, after a must we can expect another Goa or Jasenovac from Rome, 'cause that's what they do. Unlike in times of Marcion and Byzantines vs Copts case, their beliefs do give them theological base for that.

When I hear these words I first think how no to find my kids having their eyes gouged for Orthodoxy by fervent RC's.
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« Reply #22 on: October 10, 2008, 11:37:02 AM »


This is very sad indeed. I once atteneded an Orthodox Church here in new mexico where the homily was nothing more than a promotion of a "social gospel".

Horror of horrors!  Shocked (light hearted sarcasm intended)

I know I'm new at posting here, but I don't see how a "social gospel" sermon can be compared in any way shape or form to the absolute abuses of Catholic theology, practice etc that was listed in zebu's post.

There is simply no comparison, especially considering most level headed Catholics and Orthodox who support the social gospel do so in complete accordance with their respective Church's teaching. I admit I could have a different understanding of what you mean by "social gospel" (which I understanding as carrying out Christ's commands to visit the sick, feed the poor, help those in need,  love thy neighbor as thyself, etc. The whole sheep and the goats parable basically....) Maybe you perceived something more sinister in the sermon, if so, then I can understand what you're saying.

Just my 2 cents as someone who believes that the social gospel is part of the Gospel of Christ. (notice small g compared to big G)

May the Lord give you peace....
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« Reply #23 on: October 10, 2008, 11:54:51 AM »

The way I understand the social gospel is that it teaches that the Church exists for the primary purpose of helping the disadvantaged, and that it ought to do so through political means. Those who follow the social gospel will stage protests and demonstrations in an attempt to convince governors to change their policies. This idea is especially prominent in Latin America, and it usually precludes the spiritual aspects of the Church. In short, those who practise the social gospel make the Church into a PAC rather than a religion.
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« Reply #24 on: October 10, 2008, 12:01:45 PM »

... our history as Indian Orthodox has been pretty one-sided in that, it was the Catholics - via the Portuguese - who came through and ...

Have they ever repented for that? Did they apologize to you? Have they ever spoken about unity without the word "submit"? Not to mention "subjugate".

Personally, I can't see how anyone can "submitted" to be Christian. But, heck, I'm an Orthodox.

...my post had entirely to do with Papists's explanation of how the Pope of Rome can in one breath say that all Eastern Churches are "defective" and then in the other breath say, "We must unite"...

And, after a must we can expect another Goa or Jasenovac from Rome, 'cause that's what they do. Unlike in times of Marcion and Byzantines vs Copts case, their beliefs do give them theological base for that.

When I hear these words I first think how no to find my kids having their eyes gouged for Orthodoxy by fervent RC's.

No, I do not believe they have apologised yet..... Angry

...
I DO NOT believe that ecumenism itself is inherently heretical. ...

I DO believe what's been believed by everyone, everywhere and in all times (as St. Vincent told us), and if I'm wrong somewhere I'm always grateful for correction.

Quote
Those who attack the Church of Christ by teaching that Christ's Church is divided into so-called "branches" which differ in doctrine and way of life, or that the Church does not exist visibly, but will be formed in the future when all "branches" or sects or denominations, and even religions will be united into one body; and who do not distinguish the priesthood and mysteries of the Church from those of the heretics, but say that the baptism and eucharist of heretics is effectual for salvation; therefore, to those who knowingly have communion with these aforementioned heretics or who advocate, disseminate, or defend their new heresy of Ecumenism under the pretext of brotherly love or the supposed unification of separated Christians, Anathema!


This is where things get real challenging, how would Orthodox faithful (both EO and OO) seek unity among Christ's Apostolic churches, if these very same churches have gone off course at a point in the past?....I am not arguing against or for the above position, but simply consider this: If God, our Heavenly Father, can run across the fields to lovingly embrace his Prodigals everytime we sin and repent, isn't it only apt and right that the Body of Christ, the visible entity of God's salvation unto mankind, mirror his Love for all as well?

While I fully respect many EO's right to refuse ecumenical relations, this would also by default, cancel out its developing and fledgling relationships with the Oriental Orthodox churches (and mind you, much has been done in the means of achieving theological unity among both these bodies)....Rome was founded by the Beloved and Holy Apostles, just as Egypt, Syria, India, Ethiopia and elsewhere.....mustn't these churches, under incorrent human judgments and leadership, who were once strayed (assuming that the OO did stray, which I believe we didn't, but let's say for arguement's sake that we did), be given the chance to reunite (the same goes for the Roman Catholic Church)?

In Christ,

+

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« Reply #25 on: October 10, 2008, 12:18:25 PM »


 Yes, we Catholics believe that the Eastern Orthodox are missing something, are not quite right. But how does that conflict with our desire for unity? In fact, the biggest thing that we think you are lacking is full communion with Christ's Church.

OK, I have to ask this...I've asked before elsewhere and not gotten a good answer, and it really bothers me.  From a Catholic POV, what exactly is the Orthodox Church missing? The Catholic Church says the Orthodox Church has apostolic succession, and valid sacraments, which to my limited understanding would mean that the Eucharist in the Orthodox Church is the body and blood of our Lord. If they have that, then how can they be missing something? Is submitting to the Pope what it comes down to? But then doesn't that put the Pope, a man, above Jesus in the Eucharist?  Huh

I willingly admit my understanding could be way off of these things, but I just don't understand how the Orthodox Church can have the Real Presence, and yet be missing something.  Huh  Embarrassed

I'll go try to dig up the recent document referenced earlier.

 Smiley

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« Reply #26 on: October 10, 2008, 01:28:27 PM »

...Isn't this exactly what most Orthodox on this forum have said?  That the Catholic church lacks communion with Christ's church, that they AREN'T Christ's church, and in one thread, that they are followers of Satan? ...

Are they Church already or they are not? What is your stance, since I see two contradicting statement in one single preaching toned post.
The only stand I see GreekChef taking in the post you've quoted is that we Orthodox on this forum can be very hypocritical.
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« Reply #27 on: October 10, 2008, 01:46:05 PM »

The way I understand the social gospel is that it teaches that the Church exists for the primary purpose of helping the disadvantaged, and that it ought to do so through political means. Those who follow the social gospel will stage protests and demonstrations in an attempt to convince governors to change their policies. This idea is especially prominent in Latin America, and it usually precludes the spiritual aspects of the Church. In short, those who practise the social gospel make the Church into a PAC rather than a religion.

Oh well, yeah I can see that line of thinking as seriously problematic, for a lot of reasons on many different fronts. That's certainly not what I think about as the social gospel. But is that what the sermon Papist heard was really saying? I don't know. I wasn't there. Maybe so. I once heard a priest in a sermon say on the feast of Pentecost something akin to we no longer have to evangelize because everyone has already heard of Jesus already... so I know Orthodox priests aren't beyond saying some really crazy stuff. It reminded me of the movie 'The truman show' when young truman says he wants to be an explorer, and the teacher says, "oh your too late, there's really nothing left to explore" Smiley


But if that version of the social gospel was preached in a sermon then I'd agree that's problematic.  Any time the spiritual aspects of are completely ignored in favor of something else, then yeah, big problem. No disagreement. I just react strongly to some movements that imply the social gospel has no part in the Gospel of Christ (a reactionary statement against the extreme view you stated) and that visiting the sick is not a spiritual issue and the like, because it certainly is. But now I have a clearer picture of what some people understand as the social gospel, with that understanding I'm in complete agreement. Anyways back on topic...didn't mean to derail.
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« Reply #28 on: October 10, 2008, 02:27:02 PM »

I'll go try to dig up the recent document referenced earlier.

Excerpt from the Vatican document: RESPONSES TO SOME QUESTIONS REGARDING CERTAIN ASPECTS OF THE DOCTRINE ON THE CHURCH

Quote

"Fourth Question: Why does the Second Vatican Council use the term "Church" in reference to the oriental Churches separated from full communion with the Catholic Church?

Response: The Council wanted to adopt the traditional use of the term. "Because these Churches, although separated, have true sacraments and above all -- because of the apostolic succession -- the priesthood and the Eucharist, by means of which they remain linked to us by very close bonds,"[13] they merit the title of "particular or local Churches,"[14] and are called sister Churches of the particular Catholic Churches.[15]

"It is through the celebration of the Eucharist of the Lord in each of these Churches that the Church of God is built up and grows in stature."[16] However, since communion with the Catholic Church, the visible head of which is the Bishop of Rome and the Successor of Peter, is not some external complement to a particular Church but rather one of its internal constitutive principles, these venerable Christian communities lack something in their condition as particular churches.[17]"

.

Full text of the document here: http://www.zenit.org/article-20090?l=english
.
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« Reply #29 on: October 10, 2008, 02:45:57 PM »

I'll go try to dig up the recent document referenced earlier.

Excerpt from the Vatican document: RESPONSES TO SOME QUESTIONS REGARDING CERTAIN ASPECTS OF THE DOCTRINE ON THE CHURCH

Quote

"Fourth Question: Why does the Second Vatican Council use the term "Church" in reference to the oriental Churches separated from full communion with the Catholic Church?

Response: The Council wanted to adopt the traditional use of the term. "Because these Churches, although separated, have true sacraments and above all -- because of the apostolic succession -- the priesthood and the Eucharist, by means of which they remain linked to us by very close bonds,"[13] they merit the title of "particular or local Churches,"[14] and are called sister Churches of the particular Catholic Churches.[15]

"It is through the celebration of the Eucharist of the Lord in each of these Churches that the Church of God is built up and grows in stature."[16] However, since communion with the Catholic Church, the visible head of which is the Bishop of Rome and the Successor of Peter, is not some external complement to a particular Church but rather one of its internal constitutive principles, these venerable Christian communities lack something in their condition as particular churches.[17]"

.

Full text of the document here: http://www.zenit.org/article-20090?l=english
.


Thank you. So if I understand correctly-although the Orthodox have true sacraments, the Priesthood and the Eucharist,  it comes down to the Pope.   I'm still confused. Aren't Orthodox Patriarchs successors of the Apostles as well? Then what is it about the Pope per se that would make the Orthodox suddenly get what's lacking? 

I'm sorry for my confusion. But I'm easily confused.
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« Reply #30 on: October 10, 2008, 03:04:55 PM »

Thank you. So if I understand correctly-although the Orthodox have true sacraments, the Priesthood and the Eucharist,  it comes down to the Pope.   I'm still confused. Aren't Orthodox Patriarchs successors of the Apostles as well? Then what is it about the Pope per se that would make the Orthodox suddenly get what's lacking? 

I'm sorry for my confusion. But I'm easily confused.

You've hit the nail on the head.  Even if it did come down to the 'Successor of Peter" (and it does not) they still have a problem, as there are three Apostolic Sees which trace back directly St. Peter, and one of them is older than Rome to boot (that being Antioch of course).

It is best to remember that the document I linked above is itself a clarification of an earlier Vatican declaration authored by Cardinal Ratzinger, Dominus Iesus, which can be found here: http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html

Pay particular attention to clause #17:

Quote
17.  Therefore, there exists a single Church of Christ, which subsists in the Catholic Church, governed by the Successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him.58 The Churches which, while not existing in perfect communion with the Catholic Church, remain united to her by means of the closest bonds, that is, by apostolic succession and a valid Eucharist, are true particular Churches.59 Therefore, the Church of Christ is present and operative also in these Churches, even though they lack full communion with the Catholic Church, since they do not accept the Catholic doctrine of the Primacy, which, according to the will of God, the Bishop of Rome objectively has and exercises over the entire Church.60

On the other hand, the ecclesial communities which have not preserved the valid Episcopate and the genuine and integral substance of the Eucharistic mystery,61 are not Churches in the proper sense; however, those who are baptized in these communities are, by Baptism, incorporated in Christ and thus are in a certain communion, albeit imperfect, with the Church.62 Baptism in fact tends per se toward the full development of life in Christ, through the integral profession of faith, the Eucharist, and full communion in the Church.63

“The Christian faithful are therefore not permitted to imagine that the Church of Christ is nothing more than a collection — divided, yet in some way one — of Churches and ecclesial communities; nor are they free to hold that today the Church of Christ nowhere really exists, and must be considered only as a goal which all Churches and ecclesial communities must strive to reach”.64 In fact, “the elements of this already-given Church exist, joined together in their fullness in the Catholic Church and, without this fullness, in the other communities”.65 “Therefore, these separated Churches and communities as such, though we believe they suffer from defects, have by no means been deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church”.66

The lack of unity among Christians is certainly a wound for the Church; not in the sense that she is deprived of her unity, but “in that it hinders the complete fulfilment of her universality in history”.67

 Our "defect" of course being Orthodoxy's refusal to kowtow before the Archbishop of Rome.  Roll Eyes

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« Reply #31 on: October 10, 2008, 03:14:30 PM »

...
Is that not what ecumenism is?  Spreading of the gospel, the attempt to bring all people into the fold of Christ's church?

Should we be attempting to "bring" RC's "into the fold of Christ's Church"?

...Isn't this exactly what most Orthodox on this forum have said?  That the Catholic church lacks communion with Christ's church, that they AREN'T Christ's church, and in one thread, that they are followers of Satan? ...

Are they Church already or they are not? What is your stance, since I see two contradicting statement in one single preaching toned post.

I was speaking of ecumenism in general.  But let me be very clear here.  I believe that the Orthodox Church IS, unequivocably, the ONE, TRUE CHURCH.  However, I DO NOT believe that the Catholic Church is altogether without grace, nor do I believe their sacraments to be wholly invalid.  I believe that it is NOT my place to say where the Holy Spirit is.  What I believe I CAN say is that the Holy Spirit IS in Holy Orthodoxy.  So yes, uniting the churches would be bringing RC's into the fold from our perspective.  The entire point of the post which you termed "preaching" (forgive me for humbly stating my opinion on the matter) was that WE need to get off our high horses as well.  I think we would all do well to follow Christ's example of humility.  Don't you?  Or do you think it's okay for us to judge them and dismiss them?

And for the record, no, I don't believe in the branch theory.

Thank you, PtA, for pointing out the purpose of my post.  I appreciate it when people read what I've actually written, instead of reading what they want to read, passing judgement, etc.

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« Reply #32 on: October 10, 2008, 03:43:18 PM »

DIXIT 
I tend to believe the root cause of that specific attitude might be the error of Blessed Augustine about dual principle within trinity, expanded as dual approach to the issue of good and evil.

DICO
Unnecessarily abstruse.  I blame the Augustinian bottleneck--the tendency for the Roman church to let the Hipponite crowd out all other voices and Augustinize the voices that were permitted.
Had Rome allowed any other Father the same privilege, it is likely that similar deformation of theology and practice would have occurred.

DIXI
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« Reply #33 on: October 10, 2008, 03:47:20 PM »

I really think we need to keep in mind that abuses on the level of "clown masses" really are extremely rare.

My five year Roman holiday was extremely painful.  Although I never "heard" a clown mass, I do recall other masses (such as a jazz mass for Pentecost) which threw me.  One of the nice things about Orthodoxy is that I generally do not have to hold my breath in suspense about outright liturgical abuse.
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« Reply #34 on: October 10, 2008, 04:37:30 PM »


 Our "defect" of course being Orthodoxy's refusal to kowtow before the Archbishop of Rome.  Roll Eyes


Yes, it seems that's what it says.

Thank you for posting the link to that document. I'm still troubled by the whole idea.   Embarrassed
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« Reply #35 on: October 10, 2008, 06:13:23 PM »

...


I'm not too clever, so help me understand this, since it sounds so contradictory to me.

Your premise A):


And for the record, no, I don't believe in the branch theory.
... I believe that the Orthodox Church IS, unequivocably, the ONE, TRUE CHURCH. 

Your premise B):

The entire point of the post which you termed "preaching" (forgive me for humbly stating my opinion on the matter) was that WE need to get off our high horses as well. 

And "get off our high horses" means "faster unity" with those who, according to Your premise C):

However, I DO NOT believe that the Catholic Church is altogether without grace, nor do I believe their sacraments to be wholly invalid.  I believe that it is NOT my place to say where the Holy Spirit is. 

So, those three premises in your single post are contradictory, because:

a) either you don't believe Orthodox Church is the One, Holly, ... etc.,

b) or you don't believe they (RCs) need something from us (Orthodox) they lack now (otherwise, why would we need to "get rid off high horses"?)
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« Reply #36 on: October 10, 2008, 06:18:24 PM »

DIXIT 
...

DICO
Unnecessarily abstruse.  I blame the Augustinian bottleneck--the tendency for the Roman church to let the Hipponite crowd out all other voices and Augustinize the voices that were permitted.
Had Rome allowed any other Father the same privilege, it is likely that similar deformation of theology and practice would have occurred.

DIXI
DanM



No doubt about that above in red.

Even worse, certain errors of Blessed Augustine that lead to dualistic approach were used as a foundantin to build further, as if he didn't ask for correction of his errors. Dualistic tendencies in the entire system of RCs' today were based simply on his errors.
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« Reply #37 on: October 10, 2008, 06:19:12 PM »

So, those three premises in your single post are contradictory, because:

a) either you don't believe Orthodox Church is the One, Holly, ... etc.,

b) or you don't believe they (RCs) need something from us (Orthodox) they lack now (otherwise, why would we need to "get rid off high horses"?)
or (c) you're trying to make Presbytera say something she isn't saying.
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« Reply #38 on: October 10, 2008, 06:27:34 PM »

...
or (c) you're trying to make Presbytera say something she isn't saying.

Thank you very much, you are very kind, but neither you, nor the other interpreter of Presbytera's post, helped me clarifying my confusion.

I'll wait for an authoritative explanation, if you don't mind?
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« Reply #39 on: October 10, 2008, 06:40:38 PM »

...

This is where things get real challenging, how would Orthodox faithful (both EO and OO) seek unity among Christ's Apostolic churches, if these very same churches have gone off course at a point in the past?

Easy.

"Having gone off course" (whatever that may mean) - of individuals of certain times don't affect Church as a whole - regardless the position those individuals were taking at the time of their errors.

...If God, our Heavenly Father, can run across the fields to lovingly embrace his Prodigals everytime we sin and repent, isn't it only apt and right that the Body of Christ, the visible entity of God's salvation unto mankind, mirror his Love for all as well?

Love without Truth isn't Love at all. Love in Lie is actually Hatred.

BTW, when had Rome repented?
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« Reply #40 on: October 10, 2008, 06:55:39 PM »

...

This is where things get real challenging, how would Orthodox faithful (both EO and OO) seek unity among Christ's Apostolic churches, if these very same churches have gone off course at a point in the past?

Easy.
...

An emphasize, since it seems to me you, and many westerners are not seeing it.

Sin is personal. Error is personal. It isn't collective.

I'm burdened by otherone's sins only in case I justify them (and by those sins of my Godchildren that can be attributed to my negligence - but these are my sins again).
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« Reply #41 on: October 10, 2008, 07:00:13 PM »

Personally, I don't judge RCs.

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« Reply #42 on: October 10, 2008, 07:50:28 PM »

I also firmly believe Karol Woytila is burnin' in Hell now, on zillion degrees.
And you know this how? Huh  Can you not let the departed Pope John Paul II rest without disparaging his memory in this way?  Especially since he can no longer defend himself against such vicious attacks on his character?
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« Reply #43 on: October 11, 2008, 01:51:11 AM »

I was reading somewhere (maybe this board) or maybe it was one of those rare visits to Mo' Nachos, that someone thought that the biggest hurdle with re-uniting with Rome wouldn't be theological, but practical.  He thought it would be liturgical discipline...and the lack thereof from the Roman side.

From hearing about all those "Clown masses" and other abominations, this speculation sounds plausible to me.

I really think we need to keep in mind that abuses on the level of "clown masses" really are extremely rare.

So goes the oft-repeated mantra of Vatican apologists.

In actuality, we need to keep in mind that the liturgical outrages amongst Catholics, and Roman Catholics in particular, are widespread worldwide and completely out of control in some regions.

And yes Papist, I will provide you the factual evidence to illustrate this ONCE AGAIN if need be.
Oh boy. You seem angry. You know very well that you canNOT just walk into your local Catholic Church and find a clown mass. Come now. Be reasonable.
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« Reply #44 on: October 11, 2008, 02:00:29 AM »

The fact that clown masses, rock masses, puppet masses are staged at all, must make us pause. Are such masses with episcopal approval, or are they conducted by paracanonical (for want of a better word) groups? This is not a baited question, as I have many RC friends who are saddened (if not outraged) that such liturgical liberties have been taken in recent years.
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« Reply #45 on: October 11, 2008, 02:04:11 AM »

We need to make Christian unity our number one priority. The rise of Islam and secularism is not "their (usually in reference to the Western Europe) problem", but ours. It affects our own Ecumenical Patriarch, even. Personally, I cannot pretend that the largest Christian body in the world has little impact on the future of Christendom, and that prayerful dialogue in submission to the will of God would not benefit all Christian souls, and all would-have-been Christian souls.

Maybe we'll finally "get it" in the most drastic of situations--like the Orthodox and Catholic Christians before us did and at the present do--extreme persecution.

Ah well.

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« Reply #46 on: October 11, 2008, 02:33:51 AM »

We need to make Christian unity our number one priority.

What's your hurry?

The rise of Islam and secularism is not "their (usually in reference to the Western Europe) problem", but ours.

There have been numerous posts on Islam in this board.  Islam/secularism is not our problem.

It affects our own Ecumenical Patriarch, even.

Islam has affected the EP for almost 1400 years.  The Orthodox faith has stood against Islam and will continue to do so.

Personally, I cannot pretend that the largest Christian body in the world has little impact on the future of Christendom, and that prayerful dialogue in submission to the will of God would not benefit all Christian souls, and all would-have-been Christian souls.

Are you talking about the Roman Catholic Church?  They just joined Interpol because they are a Nation-State, not a theocracy.

Maybe we'll finally "get it" in the most drastic of situations--like the Orthodox and Catholic Christians before us did and at the present do--extreme persecution.

Christians have been "extemely persecuted" for 2,000+ years.  Christian Unity in this day and age, Yawn....
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« Reply #47 on: October 11, 2008, 03:26:26 AM »


What's your hurry?

To join people to Jesus Christ. I think that it's underestimated how much this issue keeps people out of the Church, causes people to lose faith within the Church, or just influences decisions to leave Her altogether.

Quote
There have been numerous posts on Islam in this board.  Islam/secularism is not our problem.

It's affecting our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. Secularism affects us and the world around us.

The problems of other Christians are our problems. St. Paul's various letters give us accounts of this. 

Quote
Islam has affected the EP for almost 1400 years.  The Orthodox faith has stood against Islam and will continue to do so.

I agree, of course. I do believe in God, after all. But it's not my point that Islam will overcome the Church (which it won't), but that the brethren can be fortified by true, God-pleasing unity.

Quote
Are you talking about the Roman Catholic Church?  They just joined Interpol because they are a Nation-State, not a theocracy.

Not getting your point with this. I don't think you're getting mine.

You seem to be focused on the Vatican State. I'm hinting at the grassroots: The Roman Catholic Church as the largest Christian body in the world, has cultural, social, and theological significance in Christendom at large. For the benefit of all souls involved, it is a good thing that our leaders are in dialogue with them.

Quote
Christians have been "extemely persecuted" for 2,000+ years.  Christian Unity in this day and age, Yawn....

I did say the present, and from first- and second-hand accounts, Orthodox-Catholic "grass-root" unity tend to be better executed in the cells and the trenches than where the Faith can be practiced in relative openness and freedom. I know I can walk around doing presumptious things like wearing my baptismal cross and blessing my meals without me being thrown in prison. My prayers are with anyone on this board who cannot say the same thing, believe me. For those who can, sometimes I wonder: under more directly experienced circumstances, what would our opinions, Orthodox and Catholic, be about one another's communion?

That being said, I realize there are exceptions to the degree of the freedom of Christian praxis experienced by everyone, and persecution is a very very much experienced by Christians around the world. As a matter of fact, that leads back to my point: I think that some of the more active people involved in ecumenism in general, from both sides, feel the immediate need for a more unified Christian voice in the world, given today's challenges. Not to mention the model of the gospel it would be, and how many more hearts would be moved closer to Jesus Christ on account of it.

All this is why statements like this from the Pope don't surprise me, nor strike me as proposing some kind of heretical agenda.
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« Reply #48 on: October 11, 2008, 04:03:53 AM »


What's your hurry?

You seem to be focused on the Vatican State. I'm hinting at the grassroots: The Roman Catholic Church as the largest Christian body in the world, has cultural, social, and theological significance in Christendom at large. For the benefit of all souls involved, it is a good thing that our leaders are in dialogue with them.

I suppose we should dialogue with all heterodox up to a point.  Seeing as how the Latter Days Saints - Mormons - are the largest 'christian' sect in my region of the world, perhaps our bishops should also be playing footsie... excuse me - entering dialogue -  with the Mormon Elders in Salt Lake City. To my knowledge this is not happening... perhaps you could speak with Met. Philip about this missed opportunity.

Before you say apples & oranges - Catholics & Mormons... let me point out that heretical Christians are just that - heretical - no matter the quantity or flavor.  Now that I reflect upon it, most of the Mormons I know have a higher standard of morals than most Catholics I know... so perhaps afterall it is apples & oranges.

In any event, I have to agree with SolEX01 - what's the hurry?  If the Archbishop of Rome is truly in such a rush, there is nothing stopping him from renouncing the Roman innovations and outright heresy of the last millennium and leading his flock back to the Church. The ball has always been in Rome's court.
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« Reply #49 on: October 11, 2008, 09:56:02 AM »

We need to make Christian unity our number one priority.

What's your hurry?

"that they be One."  It's prayed every Divine Liturgy.

The rise of Islam and secularism is not "their (usually in reference to the Western Europe) problem", but ours.

There have been numerous posts on Islam in this board.  Islam/secularism is not our problem.
Huh
You been around?  It's everyone's problem.  Take for instance Greece: if you don't think secularism is a problem there, nor the rise of Islamism in the North amongst the Muslims, not to mention in that very large country next door and the terrorist quasi state just North, you don't know the situation.

It affects our own Ecumenical Patriarch, even.

Islam has affected the EP for almost 1400 years.  The Orthodox faith has stood against Islam and will continue to do so.

God helps those who help themselves.

Personally, I cannot pretend that the largest Christian body in the world has little impact on the future of Christendom, and that prayerful dialogue in submission to the will of God would not benefit all Christian souls, and all would-have-been Christian souls.

Are you talking about the Roman Catholic Church?  They just joined Interpol because they are a Nation-State, not a theocracy.

Where did Interpol come in?

Maybe we'll finally "get it" in the most drastic of situations--like the Orthodox and Catholic Christians before us did and at the present do--extreme persecution.

Christians have been "extemely persecuted" for 2,000+ years.  Christian Unity in this day and age, Yawn....

Wake up!


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« Reply #50 on: October 11, 2008, 10:02:58 AM »


What's your hurry?

You seem to be focused on the Vatican State. I'm hinting at the grassroots: The Roman Catholic Church as the largest Christian body in the world, has cultural, social, and theological significance in Christendom at large. For the benefit of all souls involved, it is a good thing that our leaders are in dialogue with them.

I suppose we should dialogue with all heterodox up to a point.  Seeing as how the Latter Days Saints - Mormons - are the largest 'christian' sect in my region of the world, perhaps our bishops should also be playing footsie... excuse me - entering dialogue -  with the Mormon Elders in Salt Lake City. To my knowledge this is not happening... perhaps you could speak with Met. Philip about this missed opportunity.

I didn't know that you were in Deseret.  I was just there in August.  "Interesting" place: my 11 year old told me "Baba, they use the same words but they don't seem to mean the same thing."  Still ROFL on that.  Out of the mouths of babes.

Quote
Before you say apples & oranges - Catholics & Mormons... let me point out that heretical Christians are just that - heretical - no matter the quantity or flavor.  Now that I reflect upon it, most of the Mormons I know have a higher standard of morals than most Catholics I know... so perhaps afterall it is apples & oranges.
Not quite.  Should the Vatican see the error of its ways (and the vernacular liturgy, the back peddling on the defense of the filioque etc...points in that direction), whatever is good can be chrismated and brought back into the Church.

Mormonism has nothing we want nor can accept, no matter how well they live out OUR morality (this family values thing is Christian, not Mormon).

Quote
In any event, I have to agree with SolEX01 - what's the hurry?  If the Archbishop of Rome is truly in such a rush, there is nothing stopping him from renouncing the Roman innovations and outright heresy of the last millennium and leading his flock back to the Church. The ball has always been in Rome's court.

I agree, but nothing stopping us from looking at the horizon for the prodigal and running up when we see him.
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« Reply #51 on: October 11, 2008, 11:53:56 AM »

"that they be One."  It's prayed every Divine Liturgy.

We pray for the Unity of the faith during Liturgy.

You been around?  It's everyone's problem.  Take for instance Greece: if you don't think secularism is a problem there, nor the rise of Islamism in the North amongst the Muslims, not to mention in that very large country next door and the terrorist quasi state just North, you don't know the situation.

1.  Secularism is a problem, EVERYWHERE.
2.  The Muslims in northern Greece are EU Citizens.
3.  The very large country next door, even if it reverts back to an Islamic state, is not stupid.
4.  Talk about that "wannabe" state in Politics; I won't discuss it here.

God helps those who help themselves.

I keep forgetting - is that exact passage in Scriptures?

Where did Interpol come in?

That was in reference to the Vatican and where their priorities reside....

Wake up!

I'm up.   Grin
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« Reply #52 on: October 11, 2008, 12:07:44 PM »

To join people to Jesus Christ. I think that it's underestimated how much this issue keeps people out of the Church, causes people to lose faith within the Church, or just influences decisions to leave Her altogether.

There is an agenda here which is something that I brought up in Politics forum.  If you don't have access, you can PM Fr. Chris.

It's affecting our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. Secularism affects us and the world around us.

The problems of other Christians are our problems. St. Paul's various letters give us accounts of this.

The problems of those who apostazied to Islam are our problems as well.  The ethnic conflicts and divides create a huge gap where God is no longer Love but propaganda and violence.  St. Paul certainly didn't teach propaganda or violence.

 
I agree, of course. I do believe in God, after all. But it's not my point that Islam will overcome the Church (which it won't), but that the brethren can be fortified by true, God-pleasing unity.

Isn't that the ultimate praxis?
 
 
Not getting your point with this. I don't think you're getting mine.

You seem to be focused on the Vatican State. I'm hinting at the grassroots: The Roman Catholic Church as the largest Christian body in the world, has cultural, social, and theological significance in Christendom at large. For the benefit of all souls involved, it is a good thing that our leaders are in dialogue with them.

The grassroots you propose today is vastly different from the first Christians worshipping in catacombs to avoid Roman persecution.

 
I did say the present, and from first- and second-hand accounts, Orthodox-Catholic "grass-root" unity tend to be better executed in the cells and the trenches than where the Faith can be practiced in relative openness and freedom. I know I can walk around doing presumptious things like wearing my baptismal cross and blessing my meals without me being thrown in prison. My prayers are with anyone on this board who cannot say the same thing, believe me. For those who can, sometimes I wonder: under more directly experienced circumstances, what would our opinions, Orthodox and Catholic, be about one another's communion?

"Communion" - we're not Anglicans.
 
 
That being said, I realize there are exceptions to the degree of the freedom of Christian praxis experienced by everyone, and persecution is a very very much experienced by Christians around the world. As a matter of fact, that leads back to my point: I think that some of the more active people involved in ecumenism in general, from both sides, feel the immediate need for a more unified Christian voice in the world, given today's challenges.

Ecumenism is a red flag word depending on its context.  Ecumenism and unity are not one in the same.

 
Not to mention the model of the gospel it would be, and how many more hearts would be moved closer to Jesus Christ on account of it.

I thought the 700 Club was a unified Christian voice, why need another one?   Huh
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« Reply #53 on: October 11, 2008, 02:08:54 PM »

Quote
[I suppose we should dialogue with all heterodox up to a point.  Seeing as how the Latter Days Saints - Mormons - are the largest 'christian' sect in my region of the world, perhaps our bishops should also be playing footsie... excuse me - entering dialogue -  with the Mormon Elders in Salt Lake City. To my knowledge this is not happening... perhaps you could speak with Met. Philip about this missed opportunity.

I didn't know that you were in Deseret.  I was just there in August.  "Interesting" place: my 11 year old told me "Baba, they use the same words but they don't seem to mean the same thing."  Still ROFL on that.  Out of the mouths of babes.

I'm not (although I am from the Southwest). I am presently in Polynesia, where Mormonism is the predominant faith and is by far and away the fastest growing 'christian' sect (and has been for the past 50 years).

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Before you say apples & oranges - Catholics & Mormons... let me point out that heretical Christians are just that - heretical - no matter the quantity or flavor.  Now that I reflect upon it, most of the Mormons I know have a higher standard of morals than most Catholics I know... so perhaps afterall it is apples & oranges.
Not quite.  Should the Vatican see the error of its ways (and the vernacular liturgy, the back peddling on the defense of the filioque etc...points in that direction), whatever is good can be chrismated and brought back into the Church.

Mormonism has nothing we want nor can accept, no matter how well they live out OUR morality (this family values thing is Christian, not Mormon).
.

Nor does Catholicism.  Have you attended a Charismatic Catholic Mass lately?  Mormonism is simply a heresy spawned by a larger heresy, that being Catholicism.

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In any event, I have to agree with SolEX01 - what's the hurry?  If the Archbishop of Rome is truly in such a rush, there is nothing stopping him from renouncing the Roman innovations and outright heresy of the last millennium and leading his flock back to the Church. The ball has always been in Rome's court.

I agree, but nothing stopping us from looking at the horizon for the prodigal and running up when we see him.

Considering the current state of the Catholic church, we're in for a lengthy wait.  As SolEX01 previously stated, we pray for unity during every Divine Liturgy.
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« Reply #54 on: October 11, 2008, 02:23:57 PM »

There is an agenda here which is something that I brought up in Politics forum.  If you don't have access, you can PM Fr. Chris.

I'll take your word for it. I'd really rather not have access.

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The problems of those who apostazied to Islam are our problems as well.  The ethnic conflicts and divides create a huge gap where God is no longer Love but propaganda and violence.  St. Paul certainly didn't teach propaganda or violence.

I agree with the bolded.

What I meant was St. Paul gave us examples of one church taking up the burdens of another, through material and spiritual means. The phrase "not our problem" came across as apathy to me. I could have read you wrong; it was 3 AM.

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Isn't that the ultimate praxis?

Why yes. Smiley
 
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The grassroots you propose today is vastly different from the first Christians worshipping in catacombs to avoid Roman persecution.

As it should be. This is the 21st century, not the first.

 
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Ecumenism is a red flag word depending on its context.  Ecumenism and unity are not one in the same.


I quite agree. And I think we agree on the wrong context: i.e. the WCC. I think there is more likely to be disagreement on the subtler distinctions, naturally.

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"Communion" - we're not Anglicans.

My vocabulary aside...

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I thought the 700 Club was a unified Christian voice, why need another one?   Huh

Ha. You're funny.  Smiley
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« Reply #55 on: October 11, 2008, 02:35:41 PM »

I'll take your word for it. I'd really rather not have access.

Certainly, although some concepts are better discussed in Politics such that the religious fora are for addressing religious topics without the political element causing people to get carried away.   Wink

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The problems of those who apostazied to Islam are our problems as well.  The ethnic conflicts and divides create a huge gap where God is no longer Love but propaganda and violence.  St. Paul certainly didn't teach propaganda or violence.

I agree with the bolded.

But not with the unbolded part?

What I meant was St. Paul gave us examples of one church taking up the burdens of another, through material and spiritual means. The phrase "not our problem" came across as apathy to me. I could have read you wrong; it was 3 AM.

If you know the "real" history of Islam and its interaction with Orthodoxy, you may be surprised.  For a history lesson, not every Ottoman Administrator was an ethnic Turk but people from other nations who converted to Islam for whatever reasons (mainly to avoid taxes).

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Ecumenism is a red flag word depending on its context.  Ecumenism and unity are not one in the same.


I quite agree. And I think we agree on the wrong context: i.e. the WCC. I think there is more likely to be disagreement on the subtler distinctions, naturally.

The WCC has been politicized.

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I thought the 700 Club was a unified Christian voice, why need another one?   Huh

Ha. You're funny.  Smiley

Why, thanks.   Smiley
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« Reply #56 on: October 11, 2008, 02:51:07 PM »

Visual witness of why we are in for a long wait for these 'prodigals' to return to the True Faith:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wedpLBTKd84
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsWClQ_NDO4&feature=related

And of course my all-time favorite:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRULNTperWE
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« Reply #57 on: October 11, 2008, 04:18:14 PM »

...

This is where things get real challenging, how would Orthodox faithful (both EO and OO) seek unity among Christ's Apostolic churches, if these very same churches have gone off course at a point in the past?

Easy.

"Having gone off course" (whatever that may mean) - of individuals of certain times don't affect Church as a whole - regardless the position those individuals were taking at the time of their errors.

...If God, our Heavenly Father, can run across the fields to lovingly embrace his Prodigals everytime we sin and repent, isn't it only apt and right that the Body of Christ, the visible entity of God's salvation unto mankind, mirror his Love for all as well?

Love without Truth isn't Love at all. Love in Lie is actually Hatred.

BTW, when had Rome repented?

Wow...what an insightful concept....I am sure you're the only one to have thought of that until now.

Look, we all know and have affirmed from time to time here that ecumenism is a beautiful thing ONLY under the intent of bringing the world CLOSER TO Orthodoxy and not the other way around. In that statement, one can clearly see that it is implied that Orthodoxy is the One True, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church...We are called, by Christ at his very command, to hate the sin but love the sinner....this Love in Truth, is what we as Orthodox faithful, must display towards those who have erred and strayed from the Truth...In this context, one can indeed indulge in a truthful, loving dialogue without having to directly result in us compromising our doctrinal and theological tenets. I indulge in this sort of thing every single day with my loved ones...and guess what, they're taking Orthodoxy more seriously than ever before...but in return, I haven't set foot in a Protestant Church nor have I accepted Protestant doctrines. Trust me, there is a way how one can remain waiting with their arms stretched open, waiting for its prodigals to return home, while not being open to attacks.

Irrespective of Rome repenting or not, we must still go ahead and stretch out our hands. If the premise of your thoughts are that a prerequisite of sorts are required for Love to be displayed, then the Incarnation, Crucifixion and the glorious Resurrection wouldn't have happened my friend....The end result of our journey is to become more like God (in theosis). One of the first steps, we can try to become literally that is by displaying God's love towards others...

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An emphasize, since it seems to me you, and many westerners are not seeing it.

Sin is personal. Error is personal. It isn't collective.

As a student of Early Christian history and Second Temple Judaism, I must say that your understanding of sin is dismally poor and rather one-sided. Sin and error is a complicated concept within Christian and early- Jewish soteriology and does indeed include a strong corporate aspect to it as well. To discard the corporate aspect of sin (and even salvation) is to, pretty much discard a huge portion of the Hebrew Scriptures/OT and the NT. I am not saying that there is no personal aspect to sin, it is indeed there. However, the personal aspect of sin is only one side of the story and you have conveniently either forgot or abstained from outlining the numerous instances in our own Bible where corporate sin and salvation is lucidly outlined. For starters, read your Septuagint please....Funny thing, you try to teach these "westerners" about sin when your very description of sin stinks of rotten Western individualism to the core.....

But this thread isn't about the personal and collective aspects of sin, it is about Ecumenicism and how it can indeed be done rightly. It is about how we, as Orthodox can be firm in the faith and full in the Love of Christ at the same time....Again: The Roman Catholic Church, being one of the Apostolic Churches, irrepsective of how much it has erred, does deserve the right to mend, heal and restore relationships with other Apostolic churches. On that very same note, we as Orthodox faithful, must always work towards unity as well, but not (and AGAIN: NOT) at the expense of Orthodox dogma.


Till All are One....in Christ

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« Reply #58 on: October 12, 2008, 04:07:00 PM »

...
As a student of Early Christian history and Second Temple Judaism, I must say that your understanding of sin is dismally poor and rather one-sided.

As someone who isn't student, I'd like to say you should graduate, to preach to others based from the position of graduated student. Once you gain experience in addition to diploma, you'll realize the difference - the former is prerequisite but the later is required too. BTW, you'll learn that the difficulty in internet fora is that you never know with whom you are debating.

As an Orthodox Christian, I'd like to inform you that, or course, I take the advice, but only from priests and brothers with whom I'm in communion, and you, as Malankara Syrian, aren't among these.
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« Reply #59 on: October 12, 2008, 05:33:27 PM »

... I believe ecumenism is a MUST for Christians, as Christ Himself commanded that we spread His gospel to all nations.  Is that not what ecumenism is?  Spreading of the gospel, the attempt to bring all people into the fold of Christ's church? ...
...However, I DO NOT believe that the Catholic Church is altogether without grace, nor do I believe their sacraments to be wholly invalid.  ...

The only conclusion I can make is that GreekChef stands for spreading the Gospel among those who have already heard it, whom don't lack grace and have valid sacraments.

Some "evangelism".
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« Reply #60 on: October 12, 2008, 05:57:50 PM »

...
As a student of Early Christian history and Second Temple Judaism, I must say that your understanding of sin is dismally poor and rather one-sided.

As someone who isn't student, I'd like to say you should graduate, to preach to others based from the position of graduated student. Once you gain experience in addition to diploma, you'll realize the difference - the former is prerequisite but the later is required too. BTW, you'll learn that the difficulty in internet fora is that you never know with whom you are debating.

As an Orthodox Christian, I'd like to inform you that, or course, I take the advice, but only from priests and brothers with whom I'm in communion, and you, as Malankara Syrian, aren't among these.

I'm always amazed how, when people find themselves in the wrong, they will resort to tactics like this on the forum-- tactics so UNOrthodox that they completely invalidate any good point the person may have had to begin with.

Why don't we dispense with the sour grapes and continue the discussion in a loving Christian manner?  This is a perfect example of the "high horse" I was talking about-- judging him unworthy to point out a scholarly error and to speak the truth in love because he doesn't meet YOUR standards of holiness.  And my friend, if "priests and brothers with whom I'm in communion" is the way I decided who I listen to, I'd be in serious trouble.  As many of the one's I'm in communion with have no idea what they're talking about, and many of the one's I'm NOT in communion with are far holier and closer to God than I (like my Grandma, who was Southern Baptist, may her memory be eternal).  Wink  That's not to say we shouldn't use discernment in deciding who we listen to, but let's use our minds to decide what information we feel is worth hearing, rather than dismissing someones words out of hand because they're not in communion with us.

As far as your assertions as to what I said in my last post, I thought I was clear, but I guess I didn't express myself as clearly as I thought.

I DO NOT believe in the branch theory, I DO believe the Orthodox Church is the ONE TRUE Church.  "Getting off our high horses" DOES NOT mean sacrificing any of our doctrine, dogma, or practice.  It DOES NOT mean "faster unity."  I have no idea where you got "faster unity" from... how quickly we are reunited is irrelevant as far as I'm concerned.  We should be sure to "take our time and do it right," to quote the late, great Mr. Rogers.

What "getting off our high horses" DOES mean is that we should EXERCISE HUMILITY.  We have been given a great gift in our Orthodoxy.  But being cocky and having an Unchristian attitude- one absent of love and full of pride- will do us no good, and WE will be judged for that.

As far as my unwillingness to say that the Catholic Church is without grace, etc... all I am saying is that I am NOT in a position to be making any judgements about where the Holy Spirit resides.  I have no business saying whether they do or do not have grace.  I think you were reading that I am leaving the possibility open that they may have grace.  I'm not-- I will not make ANY judgements about the state of grace in the Catholic Church.  Hope that makes more sense.  If it doesn't, I apologize, I'm not that eloquent and have trouble articulating exactly what I think.

Though my tone may sound harsh, I don't mean it that way.  It's hard to type what I'm thinking without it reading that way, so please don't think I'm trying to judge or be negative in general.  I'm simply trying to speak the truth in love... I felt that the comments toward OrthodoxPilgrim were hurtful and unnecessary.  I hope we can move on with the discussion in a productive manner.

OrthodoxPilgrim---
I was touched by your comments about Love in Truth and about the Prodigal son.  I was especially touched that you said:
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Irrespective of Rome repenting or not, we must still go ahead and stretch out our hands. If the premise of your thoughts are that a prerequisite of sorts are required for Love to be displayed, then the Incarnation, Crucifixion and the glorious Resurrection wouldn't have happened my friend....The end result of our journey is to become more like God (in theosis). One of the first steps, we can try to become literally that is by displaying God's love towards others...

This is exactly what I was feeling.  We should be forgiving and not cross our arms and say "you didn't say sorry, so we're not going to talk."  We shouldn't "take our ball and go home," as my mom would say, just because they didn't apologize.  That is not what Christ would do.  We should show LOVE and FORGIVENESS and come to the table anyway.

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« Reply #61 on: October 12, 2008, 06:07:12 PM »

...Though my tone may sound harsh, I don't mean it that way.  ...

No you don't sound harsh.

You sound no context.
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« Reply #62 on: October 12, 2008, 06:11:29 PM »

... I believe ecumenism is a MUST for Christians, as Christ Himself commanded that we spread His gospel to all nations.  Is that not what ecumenism is?  Spreading of the gospel, the attempt to bring all people into the fold of Christ's church? ...
...However, I DO NOT believe that the Catholic Church is altogether without grace, nor do I believe their sacraments to be wholly invalid.  ...

The only conclusion I can make is that GreekChef stands for spreading the Gospel among those who have already heard it, whom don't lack grace and have valid sacraments.

Some "evangelism".


Wow, what's with the nasty tone?  I have a hard time believing that you would use this same tone if we were having this same conversation face to face at a table at coffee hour after the Divine Liturgy (after receiving Holy Communion) this morning.  At least, I hope you wouldn't.  Honestly, I wouldn't continue the conversation in that case, out of respect for the sacrament I received.  In fact, I'm having a very hard time continuing it now.  I dislike having conversations with these overtones.  May we dispense with them and continue productively, please?

You'd be surprised... try reading "The Gospel in the Parish," by Fr. Theodore Stylianopoulos (I took his NT class at Holy Cross- we discussed this article at great length).  He says that the predicament we Orthodox find ourselves in now is EVANGELIZING (yes, he uses this word) to OUR OWN ORTHODOX FAITHFUL.  I am willing to say from experience as an active member of my churches from a little girl, to a student at the seminary (undergrad), to now being a Sunday School teacher and a Presbytera--- it is sad but true that our own Orthodox don't even know the Gospel.  So yes, considering that we are forced to evangelize to our own faithful, I would say that ecumenism among NON-Orthodox Christians is also evangelism.  I'm sorry if you have a problem with that.  

And for the record once again, I do not believe that the Catholic Church's sacraments ARE fully valid, I said that they are not WHOLLY INVALID-- meaning I will not judge them to be invalid.  I will not judge them to be valid either.

Why are we discussing at such great length what I believe about the RCC?  Why are you analyzing it so much?  I know what I believe.  Are you analyzing it in such detail because you want to judge me?  Because that is what it reads as.  Are you analyzing my beliefs for God's glory or for yours?  I'm not above some constructive criticism, but I will not open myself up and discuss what I believe so that you can make yourself feel more righteous.  Sorry.

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« Reply #63 on: October 12, 2008, 06:12:11 PM »

...Though my tone may sound harsh, I don't mean it that way.  ...

No you don't sound harsh.

You sound no context.

I sound "no context?"  You sound no syntax.  That doesn't make any sense.  Would you care to rephrase that so that we can all understand?
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« Reply #64 on: October 12, 2008, 06:18:06 PM »

...This is a perfect example of the "high horse" I was talking about-- judging him unworthy to point out a scholarly error and to speak the truth in love because he doesn't meet YOUR standards of holiness. 

Nothing about holiness there. He choses to mandate that "we" "must" something with regard to RCs. I don't know who are those "we", and certainly hold OO closer to us, Orthodox, than RC, but he apparently forgotten that I'm not on his side of the table in negotiations, neither is he on mine. And "we" (us, Orthodox) needn't anything, except keeping the fate.

And, of course, I'm willing to read what's the error of mine - the subject was, to remind you, about error and about the Church, from his prospective, and not from mine.

So, I'm transforming into an ear, GreekSchef, to hear your reasoning, because I haven't seen any until now.
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« Reply #65 on: October 12, 2008, 06:21:25 PM »

..

Why are we discussing at such great length what I believe about the RCC?  ...



Well, that's what I'm wondering myself, too. Because I haven't asked you about your beliefs about RCs, Southern Baptists, neither I said I believe they can't be saved or are followers of Satan (God forbid!). It was your choice, but you haven't answered my questions.
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« Reply #66 on: October 12, 2008, 06:26:17 PM »

...This is a perfect example of the "high horse" I was talking about-- judging him unworthy to point out a scholarly error and to speak the truth in love because he doesn't meet YOUR standards of holiness. 

Nothing about holiness there. He choses to mandate that "we" "must" something with regard to RCs. I don't know who are those "we", and certainly hold OO closer to us, Orthodox, than RC, but he apparently forgotten that I'm not on his side of the table in negotiations, neither is he on mine. And "we" (us, Orthodox) needn't anything, except keeping the fate.

And, of course, I'm willing to read what's the error of mine - the subject was, to remind you, about error and about the Church, from his prospective, and not from mine.

So, I'm transforming into an ear, GreekSchef, to hear your reasoning, because I haven't seen any until now.

How about if we keep the FAITH, rather than fate?

And it's GREEKCHEF, or PRESBYTERA MARI, please.  I will make the effort to spell your handle/name correctly, I ask you to do the same.

If you don't hear my reasoning, maybe some hearing aids are needed (although ears hear, they don't see, since you said you "haven't seen" any).  Or is it that your heart is hardened?

And Christ is the one who calls us to humility and forgiveness, not OrthodoxPilgrim.  So you say you needn't do anything.  I'm with him on this.  We NEED to show humility and forgiveness.  Seems that they are both lacking in this thread.
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« Reply #67 on: October 12, 2008, 06:28:52 PM »

..

Why are we discussing at such great length what I believe about the RCC?  ...



Well, that's what I'm wondering myself, too. Because I haven't asked you about your beliefs about RCs, Southern Baptists, neither I said I believe they can't be saved or are followers of Satan (God forbid!). It was your choice, but you haven't answered my questions.

You haven't asked me?  You've only OVERanalyzed what I've stated as MY beliefs and questioned/disagreed/judged (pick a word, all are applicable) them several times. 

Explain to me how I haven't answered your questions.  How can I better allay your concerns, as they seem to have become the focus of this thread, in conjunction with judging myself and everyone else you see fit?
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« Reply #68 on: October 12, 2008, 06:30:32 PM »

I have a feeling that English may not be orthodoxlurker's first language.
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« Reply #69 on: October 12, 2008, 06:32:59 PM »

I have a feeling that English may not be orthodoxlurker's first language.

And internet fora may not be the place when I focus on spelling-checkers.
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« Reply #70 on: October 12, 2008, 06:37:03 PM »


Explain to me how I haven't answered your questions.  How can I better allay your concerns, as they seem to have become the focus of this thread, in conjunction with judging myself and everyone else you see fit?

My concern is that you are lecturing others on humility on a thread with completely another subject, and laid down some "must".

And, OF COURSE, I DON'T GIVE A D@$%^&* WHAT A CARDINAL NEED FAST OF SLOW.

He is free to renounce errors and heresies today, and immediatelly become my brother. It's his choice he, and his flock, are separated from us.
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« Reply #71 on: October 12, 2008, 06:50:49 PM »


Explain to me how I haven't answered your questions.  How can I better allay your concerns, as they seem to have become the focus of this thread, in conjunction with judging myself and everyone else you see fit?

My concern is that you are lecturing others on humility on a thread with completely another subject, and laid down some "must".

And, OF COURSE, I DON'T GIVE A D@$%^&* WHAT A CARDINAL NEED FAST OF SLOW.

He is free to renounce errors and heresies today, and immediatelly become my brother. It's his choice he, and his flock, are separated from us.

Okay, well, I've done my best to say what I think in a loving Christian manner.  I have not tried to "lecture" anyone.  I even said that my tone may sound opposite of what it in fact is.  My purpose in discussing humility was saying that it is required of us by Christ, not anyone else, and that we should all (myself included) exercise it when attempting to bring the churches back into unity.  If it sounded like a lecture, then I apologize.
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« Reply #72 on: October 12, 2008, 07:19:40 PM »

My concern is that you are lecturing others on humility
Isn't that off topic?

And, OF COURSE, I DON'T GIVE A D@$%^&* WHAT A CARDINAL NEED FAST OF SLOW.
Is this how all Serbs speak to the wives of Priests or women generally, or is it just you?

He is free to renounce errors and heresies today, and immediatelly become my brother. It's his choice he, and his flock, are separated from us.
Given what I've seen so far, I don't think I'd like to have you as an acquaintance, let alone a brother.
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« Reply #73 on: October 12, 2008, 07:34:08 PM »

...
As a student of Early Christian history and Second Temple Judaism, I must say that your understanding of sin is dismally poor and rather one-sided.

As someone who isn't student, I'd like to say you should graduate, to preach to others based from the position of graduated student. Once you gain experience in addition to diploma, you'll realize the difference - the former is prerequisite but the later is required too. BTW, you'll learn that the difficulty in internet fora is that you never know with whom you are debating.

As an Orthodox Christian, I'd like to inform you that, or course, I take the advice, but only from priests and brothers with whom I'm in communion, and you, as Malankara Syrian, aren't among these.

As someone who is a student and busts his rear end in trying to read and study every book written on Church history by Apostolic, Ante-Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers to make sure that my advice and learning does not lead others to erroneous beliefs, I'd like to say that you should study whatever it is you are going to discuss about first, before you commit serious theological blunders that make you look dim-witted. After studying (or rather, while you study) pray to God and ask him for humility before you give tips to those students (who probably know more than you do or ever willl for that matter) as to what they ought to do with their studies.....

Also, I am not "preaching" to others...I was simply pointing out a mistake to you...you just can't handle being wrong or simply admitting your mistake on what consitutes as "sin".....FYI I never said you were completely in the wrong. You were half-true in that you said that sin is entirely personal when it isn't. For starters, read the story of Genesis and the discussion between Father Abraham and God as to whether or not he would spare Sodom and Gomorroah. Then, read the book of Hosea, about the Story of Hosea and his wife and the parallel of God's love towards his unrepenting Israelite children....then dive right into the bok of Jonah and read how God, sent Jonah, a man who was clearly an anti-Assyrian into Ninevah to preach to the natives...mind you, this was a time when Assyria was breathing down the Israelites and he had every reason to hate them...but read the last 5 verses of the book to get the gist of God's love to even those who have persecuted his own.......this is again, not "preaching"...but advice, you can take it or leave it if you want.

I couldn't care less if you listen to an OO layman/priest...the way it seems in this thread is that you're either incapable or unwilling to listen to any voice of sanity and reason, be it the voice of an EO or an OO.

Lord help us

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« Reply #74 on: October 12, 2008, 08:17:34 PM »

Quote
"Bishop Paglia affirmed, ecumenism is more and more "a demand of contemporary society.""

And therein lies the root of the heresy that is ecumenism.


I agree, this rush into relativism is what will get us into trouble.  The Orthodox Catholic church does not wrap God around contemporary society, but it tries to do the reverse.

 Cool
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« Reply #75 on: October 12, 2008, 09:26:50 PM »

...This is a perfect example of the "high horse" I was talking about-- judging him unworthy to point out a scholarly error and to speak the truth in love because he doesn't meet YOUR standards of holiness. 

Nothing about holiness there. He choses to mandate that "we" "must" something with regard to RCs. I don't know who are those "we", and certainly hold OO closer to us, Orthodox, than RC, but he apparently forgotten that I'm not on his side of the table in negotiations, neither is he on mine. And "we" (us, Orthodox) needn't anything, except keeping the fate.

And, of course, I'm willing to read what's the error of mine - the subject was, to remind you, about error and about the Church, from his prospective, and not from mine.

So, I'm transforming into an ear, GreekSchef, to hear your reasoning, because I haven't seen any until now.

I have tried to be civil in my dealing with you...After seeing how rude you were to Presbytera Mari (remember please, that she is a Father's wife....please show respect to her), I don't feel that form of civilitude is needed towards you anymore. I am going to be real blunt with you and I do apologize if I offend you or anyone else reading this.....

I am sorry, but I know you come from Eastern Europe and after having a run of bad dictators and power hungry leaders, I am sure that you have good reason to get goosebumps or get aggressive or assume the presence of some mandate or order of sorts everytime a person uses the word "must" before a particular activity...but let me assure you that my usage of the word was far from issuing a direct and authoritative command of sorts. I am the worst of God's creatures and have no authority to speak on his behalf, but I only wished that you considered the imperative that OUR LORD has given (and not I) and that is to love our neighbour as ourself....who is our neighbour?...he uses the parable of the Good Samaritan to answer that question. If you know anything about Samaritans in first century Judea, you'd know that the usage of a group of people, considered to be less than human, anti-Jewish half-breeds that stood against everything "orderly, orthodox" Judaism stood for in that day, could have come across as extremely hard to consume for first century Jews...but he used the person of the Samaritan to prove a point.....Love ALL people.....irrepsective of them being Catholic, Protestant, OO, EO, heck he could be the worst of heretics, hellbound to eternal damnation.....this doesn't mean that you must compromise everything you hold to be dear and true (again, just putting it out there in case you didn't get the point earlier....)

And, might I remind you, that if you cannot even take advice from an Oriental Orthodox, you may want to read the Book of Acts when Paul, in his dialogues with the Greek Philosophers quotes a Greek poets such as Epimendes (Acts 17:28..."In him we live and move and have our being"...."we are his offspring" taken from the poet Aratus..) to prove a point to the Greeks. He goes on to quote the ancient Greek poets further on in 1 Corinthian 15:33 and Titus 1:12..So what I am trying to say is, learn from the humility of the great disciplies who were capable to see great kernels of wisdom in the ancient Pagan books...read through Eusebius of Caesarea and his view of early Pagan works and how he saw them as preparatory works for the fullness of Truth in Christ Jesus.....these men are far more (and will remain to be) intelligent than you or I can ever be...and even THEY were humble enough to affirm the presence of truths in non-Christian religions....If they can see the truth in non-Christian religions, what is stopping you in seeing the kernels of truth among Oriental Orthodox laypeople and clergymen whose beliefs are much more closer (and might I add, identical) to the major tenets of Eastern Orthodoxy?...One word: Pride....

In Christ,

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« Reply #76 on: October 13, 2008, 02:40:38 AM »

..
And, OF COURSE, I DON'T GIVE A D@$%^&* WHAT A CARDINAL NEED FAST OF SLOW.
Is this how all Serbs speak to the wives of Priests or women generally, or is it just you?

...

Only to likewise speaking.

And it seems it isn't impossible we'll check soon how many of us are ready to give pales to our mothers, wives, sisters and daughters and stand preventing anyone from stoping them to KILL THE RATS.
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« Reply #77 on: October 13, 2008, 02:44:56 AM »

..I have not tried to "lecture" anyone. 

You did and you failed to respond to questions I asked several times here. You simply didn't bother to respond.

You are concerned with "evangelization" of people you believe do have grace and valid sacraments while your answer to anyone pointing to that is "humility".
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« Reply #78 on: October 13, 2008, 02:46:10 AM »

..I have not tried to "lecture" anyone. 

You did and you failed to respond to questions I asked several times here. You simply didn't bother to respond.
I can see why. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #79 on: October 13, 2008, 03:21:24 AM »


Explain to me how I haven't answered your questions.  How can I better allay your concerns, as they seem to have become the focus of this thread, in conjunction with judging myself and everyone else you see fit?

My concern is that you are lecturing others on humility on a thread with completely another subject, and laid down some "must".

And, OF COURSE, I DON'T GIVE A D@$%^&* WHAT A CARDINAL NEED FAST OF SLOW.

He is free to renounce errors and heresies today, and immediatelly become my brother. It's his choice he, and his flock, are separated from us.

Okay, well, I've done my best to say what I think in a loving Christian manner.  I have not tried to "lecture" anyone.  I even said that my tone may sound opposite of what it in fact is.  My purpose in discussing humility was saying that it is required of us by Christ, not anyone else, and that we should all (myself included) exercise it when attempting to bring the churches back into unity.  If it sounded like a lecture, then I apologize.


Pesbytera=Popadija Mari...With all do respect to you being a priests wife,also you being a former catholic,you seem to want over look the vast differences between us and the catholic church from my understanding of reading your posts..sorry we can't do that..
Let his Holiness the Ecumenical Patriarch do what he wants,i and millions of orthodox won't follow him in this till rome gives up all it's heresies...
I myself really don't want reunion with them ..let them stay on their side of the fence ,but again its not what i want but what the lord wants that matters and when that happen it will be his will ...and ill wait for it...Hope your not influencing you priest husband in this...also being a priest or priests wife dosen't make one a saint that knows it all....example below...
At the serbian church the popadija and the priest didn't do a good job to educate their own daughter ,they let her do what she wanted,and she did ,,,she became pregnant the metropolitan threw them out....He warned them to correct their daughter many many times..they didn't heed the warning...so they had to go...SmileyCentral.com" border="0
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« Reply #80 on: October 13, 2008, 03:32:56 AM »

..
And, OF COURSE, I DON'T GIVE A D@$%^&* WHAT A CARDINAL NEED FAST OF SLOW.
Is this how all Serbs speak to the wives of Priests or women generally, or is it just you?

...

Only to likewise speaking.
And when exactly did Greek Chef shout and swear at you? Could you point out which post it was?

And it seems it isn't impossible we'll check soon how many of us are ready to give pales to our mothers, wives, sisters and daughters and stand preventing anyone from stoping them to KILL THE RATS.
I have no idea what you're talking about. I'm hoping it has nothing to do with domestic violence towards women, but my hopes are slim.


..I have not tried to "lecture" anyone. 

You did and you failed to respond to questions I asked several times here. You simply didn't bother to respond.
I can see why. Roll Eyes
So can I.
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« Reply #81 on: October 13, 2008, 03:48:23 AM »

..
And, OF COURSE, I DON'T GIVE A D@$%^&* WHAT A CARDINAL NEED FAST OF SLOW.
Is this how all Serbs speak to the wives of Priests or women generally, or is it just you?

...

Only to likewise speaking.
And when exactly did Greek Chef shout and swear at you? Could you point out which post it was?

When she started lecturing humility those who who cautiously pointed that there is no other way to unite with RCs than them to renounce their heresies and errors.

I have never heard a female saying anything of the kind. In fact, not even nuns and hegumanias whom has spoken with me, and gave me valuable spiritual advice and help, ever lectured theology, not to mention to silence voices against false teachings.

And no, RATS in this case does have nothing with women, since there is no female clergy in Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #82 on: October 13, 2008, 03:58:34 AM »

And when exactly did Greek Chef shout and swear at you? Could you point out which post it was?

When she started lecturing humility those who who cautiously pointed that there is no other way to unite with RCs than them to renounce their heresies and errors.
I don't think she was shouting and swearing like you did to her now, was she?

I have never heard a female saying anything of the kind.
You mean, you've never heard a female give her opinion on a topic?

In fact, not even nuns and hegumanias whom has spoken with me, and gave me valuable spiritual advice and help, ever lectured theology, not to mention to silence voices against false teachings.
You know, you are completely insightless. Greek Chef wasn't silencing you, and you seem completly oblivious to the fact that its you who want to silence anyone who disagree with you because you think you are some sort of "Infallible Champion of Orthodoxy".

And no, RATS in this case does have nothing with women, since there is no female clergy in Orthodox Church.
Our hero.... Roll Eyes
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« Reply #83 on: October 13, 2008, 04:06:28 AM »

...and you seem completly oblivious to the fact that its you who want to silence anyone who disagree with you ...

And I did that by...repeatedly asking for clarifications of contradictory statements of hers?


Quote
...because you think you are some sort of "Infallible Champion of Orthodoxy".

Beware, whomever told you that you are clairvoyant may be wrong.

Quote
Our hero.... Roll Eyes

Don't build idols to yourself, George.
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« Reply #84 on: October 13, 2008, 04:28:08 AM »

Pesbytera=Popadija Mari...With all do respect to you being a priests wife,also you being a former catholic,you seem to want over look the vast differences between us and the catholic church from my understanding of reading your posts..sorry we can't do that..
What in Presbytera's posts makes you think that? The fact that she said that Christ calls us all to humility? Doesn't He?

Let his Holiness the Ecumenical Patriarch do what he wants,i and millions of orthodox won't follow him in this till rome gives up all it's heresies...
What exactly is His All Holiness doing? Isn't this thread about what the Pope said?

I myself really don't want reunion with them ..let them stay on their side of the fence ,
You don't want them to come into the Orthodox Church? Why not?

but again its not what i want but what the lord wants that matters and when that happen it will be his will ...and ill wait for it...
That's an excellent idea, and very humble- which is what Presbytera is talking about.

]Hope your not influencing you priest husband in this...
In what? Encouraging Christian humility?

also being a priest or priests wife dosen't make one a saint that knows it all....
Neither does being Serbian. What's your point?

At the serbian church the popadija and the priest didn't do a good job to educate their own daughter ,they let her do what she wanted,and she did ,,,she became pregnant the metropolitan threw them out....He warned them to correct their daughter many many times..they didn't heed the warning...so they had to go...
I see. Doesn't sound very sensible or Christian to me to blame parents for wayward children. I think your Metropolitan needs some education in the area of family counselling.
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« Reply #85 on: October 13, 2008, 04:36:30 AM »

...

This is where things get real challenging, how would Orthodox faithful (both EO and OO) seek unity among Christ's Apostolic churches, if these very same churches have gone off course at a point in the past?

Easy.

"Having gone off course" (whatever that may mean) - of individuals of certain times don't affect Church as a whole - regardless the position those individuals were taking at the time of their errors.

...If God, our Heavenly Father, can run across the fields to lovingly embrace his Prodigals everytime we sin and repent, isn't it only apt and right that the Body of Christ, the visible entity of God's salvation unto mankind, mirror his Love for all as well?

Love without Truth isn't Love at all. Love in Lie is actually Hatred.

BTW, when had Rome repented?

Wow...what an insightful concept....I am sure you're the only one to have thought of that until now.

Look, we all know and have affirmed from time to time here that ecumenism is a beautiful thing ONLY under the intent of bringing the world CLOSER TO Orthodoxy and not the other way around. In that statement, one can clearly see that it is implied that Orthodoxy is the One True, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church...We are called, by Christ at his very command, to hate the sin but love the sinner....this Love in Truth, is what we as Orthodox faithful, must display towards those who have erred and strayed from the Truth...In this context, one can indeed indulge in a truthful, loving dialogue without having to directly result in us compromising our doctrinal and theological tenets. I indulge in this sort of thing every single day with my loved ones...and guess what, they're taking Orthodoxy more seriously than ever before...but in return, I haven't set foot in a Protestant Church nor have I accepted Protestant doctrines. Trust me, there is a way how one can remain waiting with their arms stretched open, waiting for its prodigals to return home, while not being open to attacks.

Irrespective of Rome repenting or not, we must still go ahead and stretch out our hands. If the premise of your thoughts are that a prerequisite of sorts are required for Love to be displayed, then the Incarnation, Crucifixion and the glorious Resurrection wouldn't have happened my friend....The end result of our journey is to become more like God (in theosis). One of the first steps, we can try to become literally that is by displaying God's love towards others...

Quote
An emphasize, since it seems to me you, and many westerners are not seeing it.

Sin is personal. Error is personal. It isn't collective.

As a student of Early Christian history and Second Temple Judaism, I must say that your understanding of sin is dismally poor and rather one-sided. Sin and error is a complicated concept within Christian and early- Jewish soteriology and does indeed include a strong corporate aspect to it as well. To discard the corporate aspect of sin (and even salvation) is to, pretty much discard a huge portion of the Hebrew Scriptures/OT and the NT. I am not saying that there is no personal aspect to sin, it is indeed there. However, the personal aspect of sin is only one side of the story and you have conveniently either forgot or abstained from outlining the numerous instances in our own Bible where corporate sin and salvation is lucidly outlined. For starters, read your Septuagint please....Funny thing, you try to teach these "westerners" about sin when your very description of sin stinks of rotten Western individualism to the core.....

But this thread isn't about the personal and collective aspects of sin, it is about Ecumenicism and how it can indeed be done rightly. It is about how we, as Orthodox can be firm in the faith and full in the Love of Christ at the same time....Again: The Roman Catholic Church, being one of the Apostolic Churches, irrepsective of how much it has erred, does deserve the right to mend, heal and restore relationships with other Apostolic churches. On that very same note, we as Orthodox faithful, must always work towards unity as well, but not (and AGAIN: NOT) at the expense of Orthodox dogma.


Till All are One....in Christ

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« Reply #86 on: October 13, 2008, 09:14:48 AM »

..
And, OF COURSE, I DON'T GIVE A D@$%^&* WHAT A CARDINAL NEED FAST OF SLOW.
Is this how all Serbs speak to the wives of Priests or women generally, or is it just you?

...

Only to likewise speaking.
And when exactly did Greek Chef shout and swear at you? Could you point out which post it was?

When she started lecturing humility those who who cautiously pointed that there is no other way to unite with RCs than them to renounce their heresies and errors.

I have never heard a female saying anything of the kind. In fact, not even nuns and hegumanias whom has spoken with me, and gave me valuable spiritual advice and help, ever lectured theology, not to mention to silence voices against false teachings.

And no, RATS in this case does have nothing with women, since there is no female clergy in Orthodox Church.


We do have deaconesses, and the Vatican doesn't approve of women priests.  Btw, our beloved Khouriy April Wyper just fell asleep in the Lord, ending decades of intense pain (Krone's disease, etc.).  Our present priest Fr. Patrick Reardon had known her back in her Episcopalian days: she had applied to the seminary to become a priestess, and he was on the board to approve candidates (she was the only female, and the only one he approved as the men all had fuzzy ideas about what the priesthood was about.  This while opposing female priests).  In seminary she came to reject female priests and the rest of Episcopalianism, and didn't even wait for her husband's congregation (a former Bible Study at Wheaton College) to convert.

I have to say, that it has been my experience that when monks have written on family life, they are way off, with few exceptions.  Every thing I have ever read or heard from a nun on the subject has been dead on.

I have to say, I don't see how GreekChef has offended you so.
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« Reply #87 on: October 13, 2008, 09:24:28 AM »

...

This is where things get real challenging, how would Orthodox faithful (both EO and OO) seek unity among Christ's Apostolic churches, if these very same churches have gone off course at a point in the past?

Easy.

"Having gone off course" (whatever that may mean) - of individuals of certain times don't affect Church as a whole - regardless the position those individuals were taking at the time of their errors.

...If God, our Heavenly Father, can run across the fields to lovingly embrace his Prodigals everytime we sin and repent, isn't it only apt and right that the Body of Christ, the visible entity of God's salvation unto mankind, mirror his Love for all as well?

Love without Truth isn't Love at all. Love in Lie is actually Hatred.

BTW, when had Rome repented?

Wow...what an insightful concept....I am sure you're the only one to have thought of that until now.

Look, we all know and have affirmed from time to time here that ecumenism is a beautiful thing ONLY under the intent of bringing the world CLOSER TO Orthodoxy and not the other way around. In that statement, one can clearly see that it is implied that Orthodoxy is the One True, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church...We are called, by Christ at his very command, to hate the sin but love the sinner....this Love in Truth, is what we as Orthodox faithful, must display towards those who have erred and strayed from the Truth...In this context, one can indeed indulge in a truthful, loving dialogue without having to directly result in us compromising our doctrinal and theological tenets. I indulge in this sort of thing every single day with my loved ones...and guess what, they're taking Orthodoxy more seriously than ever before...but in return, I haven't set foot in a Protestant Church nor have I accepted Protestant doctrines. Trust me, there is a way how one can remain waiting with their arms stretched open, waiting for its prodigals to return home, while not being open to attacks.

Irrespective of Rome repenting or not, we must still go ahead and stretch out our hands. If the premise of your thoughts are that a prerequisite of sorts are required for Love to be displayed, then the Incarnation, Crucifixion and the glorious Resurrection wouldn't have happened my friend....The end result of our journey is to become more like God (in theosis). One of the first steps, we can try to become literally that is by displaying God's love towards others...

Quote
An emphasize, since it seems to me you, and many westerners are not seeing it.

Sin is personal. Error is personal. It isn't collective.

As a student of Early Christian history and Second Temple Judaism, I must say that your understanding of sin is dismally poor and rather one-sided. Sin and error is a complicated concept within Christian and early- Jewish soteriology and does indeed include a strong corporate aspect to it as well. To discard the corporate aspect of sin (and even salvation) is to, pretty much discard a huge portion of the Hebrew Scriptures/OT and the NT. I am not saying that there is no personal aspect to sin, it is indeed there. However, the personal aspect of sin is only one side of the story and you have conveniently either forgot or abstained from outlining the numerous instances in our own Bible where corporate sin and salvation is lucidly outlined. For starters, read your Septuagint please....Funny thing, you try to teach these "westerners" about sin when your very description of sin stinks of rotten Western individualism to the core.....

But this thread isn't about the personal and collective aspects of sin, it is about Ecumenicism and how it can indeed be done rightly. It is about how we, as Orthodox can be firm in the faith and full in the Love of Christ at the same time....Again: The Roman Catholic Church, being one of the Apostolic Churches, irrepsective of how much it has erred, does deserve the right to mend, heal and restore relationships with other Apostolic churches. On that very same note, we as Orthodox faithful, must always work towards unity as well, but not (and AGAIN: NOT) at the expense of Orthodox dogma.


Till All are One....in Christ

+

Post of the Month Nomination.

I'll second that for our Malankara brother.
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« Reply #88 on: October 13, 2008, 10:07:29 AM »

I don't even know how to begin to respond to this.  It is completely beyond me...

I have repeatedly tried to answer the questions asked of me, and I have repeatedly stated that I DO NOT BELIEVE THE ORTHODOX CHURCH SHOULD OVERLOOK THE DOCTRINAL, DOGMATIC, LITURGICAL, ETC. DIFFERENCES BETWEEN HER AND THE CATHOLIC CHURCH!  UNITY, TO ME, MEANS THAT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH COMES INTO THE ORTHODOX CHURCH WHEN THOSE DIFFERENCES HAVE BEEN OVERCOME, NOT OVERLOOKED.  I REFUSE TO MAKE JUDGEMENTS ABOUT THE STATE OF GRACE OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH AS IT IS NOW.  WHAT IS THE PROBLEM WITH THAT?

I'm not sure how much clearer I can be.  Furthermore, I have repeatedly stated that I was not lecturing anyone on humility, simply stating that, whether we Orthodox are "right" or not (which, yes, I believe we are), I believe that Christ has called us to humility, love, and forgiveness.

And what, Orthodoxlurker, does my being a woman and a Presbytera have to do with anything? 

Now, I have repeatedly asked for discussion in Christian love, to dispense with the harsh tones and move forward, and have repeatedly been ignored and attacked.

I'd like to third the nominee for PoM! 

Does anyone even remember what this thread was about and where it was going before we were so RUDELY hijacked by Orthodoxlurker?

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« Reply #89 on: October 13, 2008, 10:11:47 AM »

..
And, OF COURSE, I DON'T GIVE A D@$%^&* WHAT A CARDINAL NEED FAST OF SLOW.
Is this how all Serbs speak to the wives of Priests or women generally, or is it just you?

...

Only to likewise speaking.
And when exactly did Greek Chef shout and swear at you? Could you point out which post it was?

When she started lecturing humility those who who cautiously pointed that there is no other way to unite with RCs than them to renounce their heresies and errors.

I have never heard a female saying anything of the kind. In fact, not even nuns and hegumanias whom has spoken with me, and gave me valuable spiritual advice and help, ever lectured theology, not to mention to silence voices against false teachings.

And no, RATS in this case does have nothing with women, since there is no female clergy in Orthodox Church.


Are you implying that clergy are rats?  Or women are rats?  I'm confused.  Go ahead, hurl your insults.  Let us know how you really feel.
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« Reply #90 on: October 13, 2008, 10:31:22 AM »


Explain to me how I haven't answered your questions.  How can I better allay your concerns, as they seem to have become the focus of this thread, in conjunction with judging myself and everyone else you see fit?

My concern is that you are lecturing others on humility on a thread with completely another subject, and laid down some "must".

And, OF COURSE, I DON'T GIVE A D@$%^&* WHAT A CARDINAL NEED FAST OF SLOW.

He is free to renounce errors and heresies today, and immediatelly become my brother. It's his choice he, and his flock, are separated from us.

Okay, well, I've done my best to say what I think in a loving Christian manner.  I have not tried to "lecture" anyone.  I even said that my tone may sound opposite of what it in fact is.  My purpose in discussing humility was saying that it is required of us by Christ, not anyone else, and that we should all (myself included) exercise it when attempting to bring the churches back into unity.  If it sounded like a lecture, then I apologize.


Pesbytera=Popadija Mari...With all do respect to you being a priests wife,also you being a former catholic,you seem to want over look the vast differences between us and the catholic church from my understanding of reading your posts..sorry we can't do that..
Let his Holiness the Ecumenical Patriarch do what he wants,i and millions of orthodox won't follow him in this till rome gives up all it's heresies...
I myself really don't want reunion with them ..let them stay on their side of the fence ,but again its not what i want but what the lord wants that matters and when that happen it will be his will ...and ill wait for it...Hope your not influencing you priest husband in this...also being a priest or priests wife dosen't make one a saint that knows it all....example below...
At the serbian church the popadija and the priest didn't do a good job to educate their own daughter ,they let her do what she wanted,and she did ,,,she became pregnant the metropolitan threw them out....He warned them to correct their daughter many many times..they didn't heed the warning...so they had to go...SmileyCentral.com" border="0

Stashko,

Please understand, I do NOT want to overlook the differences between us and the RCC.  It is exactly the opposite.  I very firmly believe that no unity can be reached without truth--- truth means that the differences that separate us have to be overcome.  This does not mean we should give up our faith, our beliefs, etc.  All I have been trying to say is that when we come to the table, we should do so with humility, with love, with forgiveness, with open arms as the father to the prodigal son (as someone else pointed out).  I have a hard time understanding where the problem is with what I think?  If there's something wrong with what I'm saying, someone please point it out to me...

You began your post with "all due respect" and then proceeded to comment on my relationship with my husband and his priesthood.  This is NONE of your business.  You have NO right whatsoever to talk about my relationship with him and his priesthood.  I'll ask you not to do that again.  Furthermore, I am quite well aware that being a priest's wife does not make me a saint.  I never claimed that, and I do NOT need YOU to point that out to me.  Leave that to my spiritual father.  He's quite familiar with my beliefs and my heart.  And he is well equipped to minister to me.  Don't worry your pretty little head about it.

I feel sad that you want anyone, Catholic or otherwise, to "stay on their side of the fence."  Christ called us to bring others to Him, did He not?  It makes me sad that you would desire for others not to come into the Church.  But whatever floats your boat...

What does your former priest/his wife's inability to educate their daughter have to do with me?  It sounds to me like you are telling me this as a cautionary tale, as though you think that you can judge by a few posts on the internet that I and my husband are incapable of educating our (nonexistent) children.  I think that's a little unnecessary.

And by the way, I was only Catholic until the age of two.  My father is Greek and has always been Orthodox.  I have grown up in the Church.  The only reason I was baptized Catholic was because a bad ORTHODOX priest INCORRECTLY and UNJUSTLY told my parents he wouldn't marry them.  His proistamenos corrected the situation when he found out.
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« Reply #91 on: October 13, 2008, 11:05:28 AM »

I've been reading this thread and I just cannot believe what I'm reading!

To orthodoxlurker:

 You seem to have a contempt of the West and anything "western". Perhaps I'm perceiving incorrectly but that is how your posts come across. What's funny is that you're Serbian Orthodox, which is hardly the most "Eastern" of the Eastern Churches.

Anti-western bias is simply out of fear or perhaps misunderstanding of the West. Presbytera already explained that she doesn't want unity with Rome to come until Rome corrects it's dogmatic errors.  But I suspect if tomorrow Rome repudiated the Filioque, Papal supremacy, the IC and the other Papal dogmas you'd still be against union because they don't use our liturgy, or they have statues, or they use Gregorian Chant, ie: they are too "latin" or western.

 I admit, my perception could be totally wrong, but this is at least how your posts come off. Maybe you're not even aware of it. Maybe it's a cultural difference or something, but this is how I perceive it. Secondly, how do you think a Catholic feels when they read your posts? Good grief, why would ANYONE want to become Orthodox when they see such infighting not only between EO and OO, but such perceived anger at an EO Presbytera? (again, it could be a perception of the internet, and not really what is going on)


You've had Presbytera Mari repeat herself over and over again and still you do not read her words, but interprate them according to your own context. She's said about 3 or 4 times she doesn't accept the "branch theory", that Orthodoxy is the one true Church etc...

Lastly as far as whether Rome's Sacraments are valid, I find it funny that some Orthodox KNOW they don't have grace, and yet, the ancient Church accepted Arian baptisms. With that logic, Catholics are worse than Arians....I'm sorry, but that's total nonsense, and in the end it boils down to what God wants and decides. If God has so chosen to keep grace in Rome's Sacraments then that's His business and not ours. We shouldn't be judging such things that we cannot know about.

Sorry if I've misunderstood your words, but this is my impression from reading this thread.

In Peace...

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« Reply #92 on: October 13, 2008, 11:15:35 AM »



Let his Holiness the Ecumenical Patriarch do what he wants,i and millions of orthodox won't follow him in this till rome gives up all it's heresies...
I myself really don't want reunion with them ..let them stay on their side of the fence


What else can explain such a statement other than outright anti-western/anti-latin sentiment? As I posted to orthodoxlurker, there is no other apparent explanation.

Quote
but again its not what i want but what the lord wants that matters and when that happen it will be his will

That's a good attitude we should all have. However it is also God's will for us to have good relations with people we disagree with, including "those Latins". Wink


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« Reply #93 on: October 13, 2008, 12:58:32 PM »


...
I myself really don't want reunion with them ..let them stay on their side of the fence


What else can explain such a statement other than outright anti-western/anti-latin sentiment?

If I'm allowed to comment my brother's stance:

Let them stay "on the other side of the fence" (stay "them"), because they are not us. Unless, of course, they become "us", which each and every one of them, and all together, can easily do any day, as did, for instance, our beloved Fr. Ambrose.

BTW, usually, those of "them" who became "us" are the best ones among us, just like Fr. Ambrose (a.k.a. Irish Hermit).

It's about the identity.
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« Reply #94 on: October 13, 2008, 01:07:48 PM »


 Yes, we Catholics believe that the Eastern Orthodox are missing something, are not quite right. But how does that conflict with our desire for unity? In fact, the biggest thing that we think you are lacking is full communion with Christ's Church.

OK, I have to ask this...I've asked before elsewhere and not gotten a good answer, and it really bothers me.  From a Catholic POV, what exactly is the Orthodox Church missing? The Catholic Church says the Orthodox Church has apostolic succession, and valid sacraments, which to my limited understanding would mean that the Eucharist in the Orthodox Church is the body and blood of our Lord. If they have that, then how can they be missing something? Is submitting to the Pope what it comes down to? But then doesn't that put the Pope, a man, above Jesus in the Eucharist?  Huh

I willingly admit my understanding could be way off of these things, but I just don't understand how the Orthodox Church can have the Real Presence, and yet be missing something.  Huh  Embarrassed

I'll go try to dig up the recent document referenced earlier.

 Smiley


No It does not put him above Jesus. I am not sure I understand why you would think this. We believe that Jesus intended all Christians to be under the Pope and that the EO Church is missing this. We believe that what is missing is communion with Christ's Church.


Fixed quote tags  -PtA
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« Reply #95 on: October 13, 2008, 01:14:43 PM »

..

Lastly as far as whether Rome's Sacraments are valid, I find it funny that some Orthodox KNOW they don't have grace, and yet, the ancient Church accepted Arian baptisms. With that logic, Catholics are worse than Arians....I'm sorry, but that's total nonsense, and in the end it boils down to what God wants and decides.

But, the point is there is nothing wrong in your above statement, and I never held anything else. For the record, my belief is not that a RC cannot be saved. And this is one of the two  wrong assumptions in your post, unlike some other posters whom made half a dozen of them per post.

But I suspect if tomorrow Rome repudiated the Filioque, Papal supremacy, the IC and the other Papal dogmas you'd still be against union because they don't use our liturgy, or they have statues, or they use Gregorian Chant, ie: they are too "latin" or western.

Well, this is just your assumption about something I never said. Let them renounce them, so they become our brothers and sisters. But why they don't do it? They already know they are wrong about filioque.

I don't expect them to do anything for the sake of unity. They shouldn't do that. They should do that for the sake of their own condition, to heal themselves, and let us help them healing if they want. And unity would come as a consequence.

But no, they don't want that. They don't feel they need healing, all they do is double speaking about some "unity" which would actually be unity in errors, heresies, doom and "submission" to the Roman Pope.

I won't do that.
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« Reply #96 on: October 13, 2008, 01:20:12 PM »

Secondly, how do you think a Catholic feels when they read your posts?

I'm limited, I'm only a sinning human, but I can't do better than this:

...
He is free to renounce errors and heresies today, and immediatelly become my brother. It's his choice he, and his flock, are separated from us.
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« Reply #97 on: October 13, 2008, 01:31:12 PM »

..

I have to say, I don't see how GreekChef has offended you so.

Though she hasn't offended me, I've repeated several times my complaint, so I'm repeating it just once again because it is you who is asking:

When a RC bishop mandates to an Orthodox Patriarch (whom, btw, is planned to be "isolated" as spelled out be certain Metroplitan last year), that he, a RC bishop, "needs unity fast", (although he can achieve the unity today), there is NOTHING AND NOBODY whom I'd tolerate in speaking about humility of any Orthodox who is expressing dissgusst, outrage and, if you like, is expressing his willingness to cast stones.

Switching to my personal sinfullness as a response is a bad choice of answer, since, though I have much to confess, nothing of it will go to internet confession, while the statement:

"I don't give a da^&(# what a RC bishop needs slow or fast" as the answer to a RC's bishop call for "unity fast" will NEVER be confessed by me as my sin, since it isn't.

And I'll repeat it three times a day.
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« Reply #98 on: October 13, 2008, 01:38:07 PM »


...
I myself really don't want reunion with them ..let them stay on their side of the fence


What else can explain such a statement other than outright anti-western/anti-latin sentiment?

If I'm allowed to comment my brother's stance:

Let them stay "on the other side of the fence" (stay "them"), because they are not us. Unless, of course, they become "us", which each and every one of them, and all together, can easily do any day, as did, for instance, our beloved Fr. Ambrose.

BTW, usually, those of "them" who became "us" are the best ones among us, just like Fr. Ambrose (a.k.a. Irish Hermit).

It's about the identity.


You did a Great job Brother,, explaining what i really meant....thank you.....SmileyCentral.com" border="0


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A tangent dealing with the question of forgiveness has been split off from this thread and moved here: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,17916.0.html
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