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« Reply #270 on: October 08, 2008, 04:33:07 PM »

Okay I've been reading this THOROUGHLY fascinating thread and, one question keeps popping up into my mind.  "Metropolitan Samuel" has readily admitted that he is, in fact, "Bishop Mark."  But he has been signing his posts as "Metropolitan Samuel."  My question is... which is it... "Bishop Mark (who claims to be Archbishop and Patriarch)" or "Metropolitan Samuel?"  He has now claimed THREE separate liturgical ranks, and used two different names.  Inspires lots of confidence in his "jurisdiction," eh?  Smiley

Anyone... anyone... Bueller?  Roll Eyes

I hadn't noticed the Archbishop/Patriarch thing... nice catch!  I think this is a riot, personally.
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« Reply #271 on: October 08, 2008, 04:33:48 PM »

And is it just me... has anyone else noticed that they also have FEMALE priests/bishops?  Seems that that the canon law regarding married bishops is not the only canon law they reject...

Or wait, I'm confused... that is the American Orthodox Catholic Church Western Rite... is that the same thing? 

Hmmmmmmm
« Last Edit: October 08, 2008, 04:36:09 PM by GreekChef » Logged

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« Reply #272 on: October 08, 2008, 04:57:22 PM »

And is it just me... has anyone else noticed that they also have FEMALE priests/bishops?  Seems that that the canon law regarding married bishops is not the only canon law they reject...

Or wait, I'm confused... that is the American Orthodox Catholic Church Western Rite... is that the same thing? 

Hmmmmmmm

Same thing, I think, according to the main website.
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« Reply #273 on: October 08, 2008, 06:06:25 PM »

Im still waiting patiently for a answer,, are those two the Metropolitan  and Father Alexzander real clergy or not.....Waiting.....

Well, I suppose it is a question of perspective; on the one hand, since they're in communion with NO ONE ELSE on this forum, then no, they're not (ontologically).  On the other hand, they are in that they probably really do minister to some flock somewhere; however, I've also seen a cat minister to wounded cats before, and I haven't called it "Your Eminence," so I don't think the mere fact that they're playing the role somehow legitimizes them (if it did, I'd have been called "Fr" a long time ago, when I was playing liturgy as a small child in my room using dishes and cups from the kitchen, with washcloths and hand-towels for covers).


Thanks Brother....It's a sad day for mankind when people like this come out of the woodwork  to lead and to confuse people when it come to their salvation by playing church ...God Help Us All...wolves in sheep clothing as the Lord warned us about....SmileyCentral.com" border="0
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« Reply #274 on: October 09, 2008, 06:33:21 AM »

Fr. Chris has duties in his parish that mean he isn't always available to answer your questions right when you want them answered.  His responsibilities as a pastor to his parish take priority.  The fact he hasn't answered as quickly as you feel you're entitled in no way justifies you being rude and ordering him to "hurry up."
Not sure which of us ,stashko or me, you mean but I believe that both of us directed our questions to the AOCC clergy.
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« Reply #275 on: October 09, 2008, 07:18:20 AM »

Not sure which of us ,stashko or me, you mean but I believe that both of us directed our questions to the AOCC clergy.

Stashko had asked Fr Chris (who is certainly not an AOCC clergyman) about the "legitimacy" of "Metropolitan Samuel" and "Father Alexander."  Veniamin was pointing out that an answer to his question was probably being delayed because of Fr. Chris' busy parish life schedule.

As to the questions posed of the AOCC clergy, I have a feeling that they will not be answered here. I don't think either of our "friends" will be posting here in the near future (although I highly doubt that they're gone for good...), and they certainly don't have a good opinion of OC.net (if you check out their website, they call us a very un-Christian board, and I think someone from here had gone over to their Guestbook and left a nasty message (they've deleted it and now have password-protected their guestbook).
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« Reply #276 on: October 09, 2008, 07:27:38 AM »

Not sure which of us ,stashko or me, you mean but I believe that both of us directed our questions to the AOCC clergy.

Stashko had asked Fr Chris (who is certainly not an AOCC clergyman) about the "legitimacy" of "Metropolitan Samuel" and "Father Alexander."  Veniamin was pointing out that an answer to his question was probably being delayed because of Fr. Chris' busy parish life schedule.

As to the questions posed of the AOCC clergy, I have a feeling that they will not be answered here. I don't think either of our "friends" will be posting here in the near future (although I highly doubt that they're gone for good...), and they certainly don't have a good opinion of OC.net (if you check out their website, they call us a very un-Christian board, and I think someone from here had gone over to their Guestbook and left a nasty message (they've deleted it and now have password-protected their guestbook).
OK, thanks and it is sad that someone had to be abusive to them in their domain. As suspect I may have perceived the AOCC it would not negate the possibility for some dialog and encourage unity with the canonical Orthodox churches in America (however unlikely the chance).
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« Reply #277 on: October 09, 2008, 07:40:27 AM »

OK, thanks and it is sad that someone had to be abusive to them in their domain. As suspect I may have perceived the AOCC it would not negate the possibility for some dialog and encourage unity with the canonical Orthodox churches in America (however unlikely the chance).

Agreed.  It would be best if we were to all come in to doctrinal & practical unity, to facilitate unity of Communion.  Alas, I don't think that will be happening any time soon, especially with their group lambasting SCOBA as a "good 'ol boys club" and an occasional nut from "our side" going over there to leave the proverbial bag of flaming feces on their doorstep.
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« Reply #278 on: October 09, 2008, 08:25:38 AM »

OK, thanks and it is sad that someone had to be abusive to them in their domain. As suspect I may have perceived the AOCC it would not negate the possibility for some dialog and encourage unity with the canonical Orthodox churches in America (however unlikely the chance).

Agreed.  It would be best if we were to all come in to doctrinal & practical unity, to facilitate unity of Communion.  Alas, I don't think that will be happening any time soon, especially with their group lambasting SCOBA as a "good 'ol boys club" and an occasional nut from "our side" going over there to leave the proverbial bag of flaming feces on their doorstep.
The last phrase in your post must really illustrate the hurt they must feel by enduring insult. These people are not monsters & I believe they mean well but are misguided and express themselves clumsily at times (more bark than bite). I pray that whatever truth in faith they adhere to & whatever good works they do will be pleasing to God & for the common good.
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« Reply #279 on: October 09, 2008, 09:36:36 AM »

The last phrase in your post must really illustrate the hurt they must feel by enduring insult. These people are not monsters & I believe they mean well but are misguided and express themselves clumsily at times (more bark than bite). I pray that whatever truth in faith they adhere to & whatever good works they do will be pleasing to God & for the common good. 

Misguided to a point.  We do have to acknowledge that if one is shown the truth, exposed and properly oriented to it, and rejects it, then they have a great weight upon their soul.  That does not pardon us from judgment for our own lambasting of them, but good intentions can lead to bad decisions which can lead to separation from the Body of Christ.
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« Reply #280 on: October 09, 2008, 11:06:34 AM »

I see that Met. Samuel has now removed his second (and earliest) website - the one which mentions the AOCC's use of their new liturgy which he has consistently refused to make public.

Nevermind - the site is back up.  Haven't bothered to audit and see what has changed, nor do I think I will.  One can only read so much nonsense in any given week.  Wink
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« Reply #281 on: October 09, 2008, 11:17:35 AM »

(if you check out their website, they call us a very un-Christian board, and I think someone from here had gone over to their Guestbook and left a nasty message (they've deleted it and now have password-protected their guestbook).

That someone felt it necessary to leave a nasty message on their guestbook is regrettable.

But if the members here are un-Christian because we are "very demanding and very rude" and "like to use the canons to justify themselfs as being Orthodox," well...  the story may be apocryphal, but I'll side with St. Nicholas over Arius every time.  Wink

The AOCC would impress me by linking this thread to their comment on this forum so that their visitors could judge for themselves.
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« Reply #282 on: October 09, 2008, 11:22:56 AM »

The one message that was left that I saw was not nasty. It merely said something to the effect of, "Watch out! You may be leading people in to hell! These are people's eternal souls you are responsible for." Or something to that effect.

Given what they are doing, I am not surprised that some people have that reaction.
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« Reply #283 on: October 09, 2008, 11:51:18 AM »

OK, thanks and it is sad that someone had to be abusive to them in their domain. As suspect I may have perceived the AOCC it would not negate the possibility for some dialog and encourage unity with the canonical Orthodox churches in America (however unlikely the chance).

Agreed.  It would be best if we were to all come in to doctrinal & practical unity, to facilitate unity of Communion.  Alas, I don't think that will be happening any time soon, especially with their group lambasting SCOBA as a "good 'ol boys club" and an occasional nut from "our side" going over there to leave the proverbial bag of flaming feces on their doorstep.


Hummm! i wonder who that could be, that would do somthing like that.....SmileyCentral.com" border="0I got to say you have a great way with words...
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« Reply #284 on: October 09, 2008, 11:52:40 AM »

I just want to mention that I was not trying to show any approval to the AOCC & believe I took them to task appropriately. I had a busy morning having to leave work for a legal appointment & (in a separate matter) learned of a friend's brother who died in unclear circumstances. Perhaps my expression was slightly unbalanced within Orthpraxis re forgiveness & repentance.
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« Reply #285 on: October 09, 2008, 05:49:43 PM »

The last phrase in your post must really illustrate the hurt they must feel by enduring insult. These people are not monsters & I believe they mean well but are misguided and express themselves clumsily at times (more bark than bite). I pray that whatever truth in faith they adhere to & whatever good works they do will be pleasing to God & for the common good. 

Misguided to a point.  We do have to acknowledge that if one is shown the truth, exposed and properly oriented to it, and rejects it, then they have a great weight upon their soul.  That does not pardon us from judgment for our own lambasting of them, but good intentions can lead to bad decisions which can lead to separation from the Body of Christ.

As always, Cleveland, you hit the nail right on the head!  I have to say though, the fact that they are so obviously secretive, refusing to answer straight questions, changing names, and making claims that are simply not true indicates to me that the intentions may not be entirely good.  It makes me sad to say that, and pray forgiveness if I am unjustly judgemental.  But I just don't see how anything other than transparency and honesty can be considered good intentions in a situation like this.  I hope someday they will understand why canonical law is such as it is.  And I pray that their hearts will be opened, pride overcome so that they may be able to see past the ends of their noses and come home to true Orthodoxy.

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« Reply #286 on: October 09, 2008, 05:53:37 PM »

By the way, just thought this was interesting.  Their website now says the following:

Quote
5) Q. What Liturgy do you use for worship?         

    A. The Divine Liturgies celebrated by The American Orthodox Catholic Church are those, and only those of Pre-Schismatic Eastern and Western origin ... including the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, the Liturgy of Saint James of Jeruselem, the Lorrha-Stowe Rite (Celtic), the Gregorian Liturgy minus the Filioque and with a clearly defined Epiclesis.  In some cases these may be adapted to the particular worshipping community served.

http://www.forministry.com/USNYAMOCCNOCCN/FREQUENTLYASKEDQUESTIONS.dsp


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« Reply #287 on: October 09, 2008, 06:39:08 PM »

By the way, just thought this was interesting.  Their website now says the following:

Quote
5) Q. What Liturgy do you use for worship?         

    A. The Divine Liturgies celebrated by The American Orthodox Catholic Church are those, and only those of Pre-Schismatic Eastern and Western origin ... including the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, the Liturgy of Saint James of Jeruselem, the Lorrha-Stowe Rite (Celtic), the Gregorian Liturgy minus the Filioque and with a clearly defined Epiclesis.  In some cases these may be adapted to the particular worshipping community served.

http://www.forministry.com/USNYAMOCCNOCCN/FREQUENTLYASKEDQUESTIONS.dsp




Yes, Met. Samuel has edited out the previous reference on the FAQ page to their new liturgy.  However, he forgot to also do so on the home page, which still says:

"Our Liturgy is The Divine Liturgy for the Americas, formerly known as The Divine Liturgy for Twentieth Century Christians - the original Liturgy of this Church, and encompasses also both Eastern and Western Liturgical expressions."


I find it interesting that he has added the "Lorrha-Stowe Rite (Celtic)" liturgy...  I guess if you're composing new liturgies, you might as well borrow others liturgies while you're at it.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #288 on: October 10, 2008, 01:00:46 AM »

I am locking this thread.  This thread has gone off topic several times.  We are not trying to stifle investigation into the AOCC.  However members of the AOCC have failed to answer critical questions asked of them.  Members of the AOCC claiming to be Orthodox and or Orthodox Clergy ARE NOT Orthodox nor Orthodox Clergy.  -username! section moderator
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