Author Topic: Concerned about Elder Ephraim's Monasteries  (Read 117460 times)

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Offline Maria

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Re: Concerned about Elder Ephraim's Monasteries
« Reply #360 on: January 09, 2014, 07:51:45 PM »
Hopefully this puts to rest that there is anyting wrong with the Roman practice of affusion(pouring).

I thought I read somewhere that there was an order.

1) full immersion in moving water
2) full immersion in a tab
3) pouring

Now the RC seem to have gone lazy. While I can understand the difficulty with #1, what is so hard with #2?

BTW mods should probably split this thread if we continue discussing baptism....
Unfortunately, some babies have died from even very brief full immersion. It is strange. The water gets in their lungs just a bit and it kills them. I am not sure how it works. It has been discussed elsewhere on OC.net.

Granted, I understand that this is a very rare occurance, and that full immersion is the norm for Orthodox.

The baby pictured in the Coptic baptism sounded like he got some water or mucus in his throat. He was struggling and making unusual sounds. I was surprised that the priest dunked him face down.

I have seen some Antiochian priests handle the babies as if they were planes when they had a larger baptismal font. The priest would quickly fly them down into the water and then immediately out. It was a sight to see.
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Offline LBK

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Re: Concerned about Elder Ephraim's Monasteries
« Reply #361 on: January 09, 2014, 07:58:48 PM »
Quote
I have seen some Antiochian priests handle the babies as if they were planes when they had a larger baptismal font. The priest would quickly fly them down into the water and then immediately out. It was a sight to see.

It's not just the Antiochians. I've seen Russian priests do it, too. Quick, easy, and quite safe.
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Offline frjohnmorris

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Re: Concerned about Elder Ephraim's Monasteries
« Reply #362 on: January 09, 2014, 08:23:10 PM »
Hopefully this puts to rest that there is anyting wrong with the Roman practice of affusion(pouring).

I thought I read somewhere that there was an order.

1) full immersion in moving water
2) full immersion in a tab
3) pouring

Now the RC seem to have gone lazy. While I can understand the difficulty with #1, what is so hard with #2?

BTW mods should probably split this thread if we continue discussing baptism....
Unfortunately, some babies have died from even very brief full immersion. It is strange. The water gets in their lungs just a bit and it kills them. I am not sure how it works. It has been discussed elsewhere on OC.net.

Granted, I understand that this is a very rare occurance, and that full immersion is the norm for Orthodox.

That sounds like an old wive's tale to me. Besides most babies cry and that would take care of any water that got in its lungs. Some Priests pinch the baby to make it cry after it is Baptized for that purpose.

Fr. John W. Morris

Offline Maria

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Re: Concerned about Elder Ephraim's Monasteries
« Reply #363 on: January 09, 2014, 08:26:48 PM »
Hopefully this puts to rest that there is anyting wrong with the Roman practice of affusion(pouring).

I thought I read somewhere that there was an order.

1) full immersion in moving water
2) full immersion in a tab
3) pouring

Now the RC seem to have gone lazy. While I can understand the difficulty with #1, what is so hard with #2?

BTW mods should probably split this thread if we continue discussing baptism....
Unfortunately, some babies have died from even very brief full immersion. It is strange. The water gets in their lungs just a bit and it kills them. I am not sure how it works. It has been discussed elsewhere on OC.net.

Granted, I understand that this is a very rare occurance, and that full immersion is the norm for Orthodox.

That sounds like an old wive's tale to me. Besides most babies cry and that would take care of any water that got in its lungs. Some Priests pinch the baby to make it cry after it is Baptized for that purpose.

Fr. John W. Morris

Is that why some babies cry whenever they see a priest after they have been baptized?

Baby pinchers?  ::)
« Last Edit: January 09, 2014, 08:27:07 PM by Maria »
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline LBK

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Re: Concerned about Elder Ephraim's Monasteries
« Reply #364 on: January 09, 2014, 08:41:47 PM »
Quote
Besides most babies cry and that would take care of any water that got in its lungs. Some Priests pinch the baby to make it cry after it is Baptized for that purpose.

Babies that cry at baptisms are, in my experience, those older than about six months. Baptizing babies when they're a month or two is not only spiritually beneficial, but much easier from a practical perspective. They're smaller, less wriggly, easier to handle, and, if the priest uses a good technique, the bub rarely cries.

Pinching babies to make them cry?  :o :o
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Offline frjohnmorris

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Re: Concerned about Elder Ephraim's Monasteries
« Reply #365 on: January 09, 2014, 09:02:27 PM »
Quote
Besides most babies cry and that would take care of any water that got in its lungs. Some Priests pinch the baby to make it cry after it is Baptized for that purpose.

Babies that cry at baptisms are, in my experience, those older than about six months. Baptizing babies when they're a month or two is not only spiritually beneficial, but much easier from a practical perspective. They're smaller, less wriggly, easier to handle, and, if the priest uses a good technique, the bub rarely cries.

Pinching babies to make them cry?  :o :o

Yes. An old Priest told me that after I was ordained. I have never actually had to do it, because most babies cry. The old Syrian saying is that they are fighting with the devil. However, neither one of my children cried at their Baptism.
I have learned the hard way that I have to tell the godparent that when I tell them to breathe and spit on him,  I mean on the ground as a symbol of spitting on the devil, not on the baby.

Fr. John W. Morris

Offline LBK

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Re: Concerned about Elder Ephraim's Monasteries
« Reply #366 on: January 09, 2014, 09:04:52 PM »
Quote
I have learned the hard way that I have to tell the godparent that when I tell them to breathe and spit on him,  I mean on the ground as a symbol of spitting on the devil, not on the baby.

 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline Cavaradossi

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Re: Concerned about Elder Ephraim's Monasteries
« Reply #367 on: January 10, 2014, 12:50:19 AM »
I have learned the hard way that I have to tell the godparent that when I tell them to breathe and spit on him,  I mean on the ground as a symbol of spitting on the devil, not on the baby.

I almost just spit my drink out reading that. :laugh:
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Offline Salpy

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Re: Concerned about Elder Ephraim's Monasteries
« Reply #368 on: January 10, 2014, 01:55:35 AM »
Hopefully this puts to rest that there is anyting wrong with the Roman practice of affusion(pouring).

I thought I read somewhere that there was an order.

1) full immersion in moving water
2) full immersion in a tab
3) pouring

Now the RC seem to have gone lazy. While I can understand the difficulty with #1, what is so hard with #2?

BTW mods should probably split this thread if we continue discussing baptism....
Unfortunately, some babies have died from even very brief full immersion. It is strange. The water gets in their lungs just a bit and it kills them. I am not sure how it works. It has been discussed elsewhere on OC.net.

Granted, I understand that this is a very rare occurance, and that full immersion is the norm for Orthodox.

This may be what you are thinking of:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,29080.0.html

Very tragic.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2014, 01:56:04 AM by Salpy »

Offline Agabus

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Re: Concerned about Elder Ephraim's Monasteries
« Reply #369 on: January 12, 2014, 06:58:45 PM »
Quote
I have learned the hard way that I have to tell the godparent that when I tell them to breathe and spit on him,  I mean on the ground as a symbol of spitting on the devil, not on the baby.

 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
It's also funny when it's an adult.
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Offline LBK

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Re: Concerned about Elder Ephraim's Monasteries
« Reply #370 on: January 12, 2014, 07:04:47 PM »
Quote
I have learned the hard way that I have to tell the godparent that when I tell them to breathe and spit on him,  I mean on the ground as a symbol of spitting on the devil, not on the baby.

 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
It's also funny when it's an adult.

Even funnier!  :laugh:
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Concerned about Elder Ephraim's Monasteries
« Reply #371 on: January 13, 2014, 07:32:09 PM »
Unfortunately, some babies have died from even very brief full immersion. It is strange. The water gets in their lungs just a bit and it kills them. I am not sure how it works. It has been discussed elsewhere on OC.net.

Granted, I understand that this is a very rare occurance, and that full immersion is the norm for Orthodox.

That sounds like an old wive's tale to me. Besides most babies cry and that would take care of any water that got in its lungs. Some Priests pinch the baby to make it cry after it is Baptized for that purpose.

Fr. John W. Morris
It's quite unfortunate, Father, but this is not an old wives' tale. It was surprising to me as I am sure it would be to you, however this was on TV- I think Romanian, was discussed on a thread here on OC.net, and I asked a doctor about it who said that Yes the death can happen as a reaction to the water. It is very sad that death and suffering are so much around us.

Regards.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2014, 07:32:24 PM by rakovsky »
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Concerned about Elder Ephraim's Monasteries
« Reply #373 on: January 13, 2014, 08:20:06 PM »
There is something known as "secondary drowning". That being said, I've never heard of it occurring from baptism.

Quote
Secondary drowning – Inhaled fluid can act as an irritant inside the lungs. Physiological responses to even small quantities include the extrusion of liquid into the lungs (pulmonary edema) over the following hours, but this reduces the ability to exchange air and can lead to a person "drowning in their own body fluid." Certain poisonous vapors or gases (as for example in chemical warfare), or vomit can have a similar effect. The reaction can take place up to 72 hours after a near drowning incident, and may lead to a serious condition or death.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drowning#Secondary_drowning
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Concerned about Elder Ephraim's Monasteries
« Reply #374 on: January 13, 2014, 08:28:06 PM »
::)

http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2013/11/the-story-behind-infant-that-died.html


"A closer analysis of forensic findings proved that eventually the baby did not drown. The child was suffering from a lung disease unknown to the family, which was the cause of his death."

Perhaps a lung disease known as secondary drowning, caused by water irritating the lungs?
Certainly a strange phenomenon if the case.
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Offline ilyazhito

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Re: Concerned about Elder Ephraim's Monasteries
« Reply #375 on: May 07, 2014, 01:20:33 AM »
Off topic. I think the OP was concerned about Elder Ephraim's monasteries, but I don't know why there should be concern. From what I can tell, St. Anthony's in Arizona is doing OK, and if there are people interested in monasticism, then glory be to God.

Offline hecma925

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Re: Concerned about Elder Ephraim's Monasteries
« Reply #376 on: May 13, 2014, 12:41:21 PM »
Off topic. I think the OP was concerned about Elder Ephraim's monasteries, but I don't know why there should be concern. From what I can tell, St. Anthony's in Arizona is doing OK, and if there are people interested in monasticism, then glory be to God.

How many monastics are there now?
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Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Concerned about Elder Ephraim's Monasteries
« Reply #377 on: May 14, 2014, 12:40:30 PM »
::)

http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2013/11/the-story-behind-infant-that-died.html


"A closer analysis of forensic findings proved that eventually the baby did not drown. The child was suffering from a lung disease unknown to the family, which was the cause of his death."

Perhaps a lung disease known as secondary drowning, caused by water irritating the lungs?
Certainly a strange phenomenon if the case.

Secondary drowning is reality and can happen during baptism. However, if the priest is aware of this problem, such an outcome may be prevented. See http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,29080.msg459665.html#msg459665