Author Topic: Are the modern saints' teachings as important as early church fathers?  (Read 7461 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline walter1234

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 928
Saints are all holy persons. Are the teachings of modern Orthodox saints as important as the early church fathers?

Offline Asteriktos

  • Lame!
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 35,440
I would say yes, which is one reason I like the Orthodox approach of not making such a sharp distinction between earlier and later ones, and not speaking of a point when a 'patristic period' ends. (Though the applicability, biases, culture, etc. should be taken into account, as always...)
« Last Edit: April 22, 2014, 05:38:22 AM by Asteriktos »
Facts unloading, please to wait

Offline Skydive

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 656
If what they say of the Ecumenical Councils and all is true, then not. If the Church is not really the Church or if the understanding of early church fathers alongside with their reason was primitive then the modern 'saints' teachings are more important.
Don't use your signature to complain about moderation.  -PtA

"I will not attack your doctrines nor your creeds if they accord liberty to me. If they hold thought to be dangerous - if they aver that doubt is a crime, then I attack them one and all, because they enslave the minds of men."

Robert Green Ingersoll

Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

  • "SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,072
  • Trolling Babylon 24/7, without apology!
    • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?ref=profile&id=1456515775
  • Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo
If what they say of the Ecumenical Councils and all is true, then not. If the Church is not really the Church or if the understanding of early church fathers alongside with their reason was primitive then the modern 'saints' teachings are more important.

Good point.

The foundation of the Church building is not more important than the nave. But the nave is sustained by the foundation. Neglect or uproot the foundation and the nave crumbles.


Selam
"Whether it’s the guillotine, the hangman’s noose, or reciprocal endeavors of militaristic horror, radical evil will never be recompensed with radical punishment. The only answer, the only remedy, and the only truly effective response to radical evil is radical love."
+ Gebre Menfes Kidus +
http://bookstore.authorhouse.com/Products/SKU-000984270/Rebel-Song.aspx

Offline Asteriktos

  • Lame!
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 35,440
I read his post as saying the opposite  ???
Facts unloading, please to wait

Offline IoanC

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,468
Absolutely, because sainthood does not belong to just one person or time period. Yet, what is more important is how one relates to those teachings (because no saint or teaching can replace who we truly are ourselves).

Offline Skydive

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 656
I read his post as saying the opposite  ???

you read it well.
Don't use your signature to complain about moderation.  -PtA

"I will not attack your doctrines nor your creeds if they accord liberty to me. If they hold thought to be dangerous - if they aver that doubt is a crime, then I attack them one and all, because they enslave the minds of men."

Robert Green Ingersoll

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,017
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Diocese of the South (OCA)
I would say that the early fathers are much more important because we are an apostolic church. This is not to say that modern saints are not important; nonetheless, the yardstick remains with the early fathers.

Offline Punch

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,799
I do not understand the concept of "as important".  Saints are known for different things.  If a modern Saint were to be considered as a "Father of the Church", it is doubtfull that he would have anything to say that is in disagreement with the ancient "Fathers of the Church".  That does not mean, however, that he could not be saying the same thing, but in a manner more relevant and meaningful to the people of this time.  If he were to differ with the early Fathers, he would be a heretic and not a Saint.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2014, 03:44:29 PM by Punch »
I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

Offline Levsky

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 25
I would say that both are equally important. St. Ignatius Brianchaninov and St. John Cassian were both great Fathers of the Church, although they lived centuries apart. If someone were to read "The Arena" and then place it alongside Cassian's "Conferences," he would see that they teach essentially the same thing when it comes to the ascetic life. Some people, myself included, prefer St. Ignatius Brianchaninov's writings because they are much more relevant to our present day circumstances and he reposed not that long ago (+1867, I think).


Offline Skydive

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 656
I think the modern saints. Because they are the ones who need to make sense of their BS. Cause... The Catholics, the Anglicans, the OO's, some Protestant Traditions, base [some of their] teachings on the same fathers and early "saints".
Don't use your signature to complain about moderation.  -PtA

"I will not attack your doctrines nor your creeds if they accord liberty to me. If they hold thought to be dangerous - if they aver that doubt is a crime, then I attack them one and all, because they enslave the minds of men."

Robert Green Ingersoll

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • Take comfort in the warmth of the Jacuzzi of Oriental Orthodoxy
  • Moderator
  • Protospatharios
  • *****
  • Posts: 32,617
  • Pope Pius XIII, play for us!
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: The Ancienter Faith
  • Jurisdiction: East
I think the modern saints. Because they are the ones who need to make sense of their BS. Cause... The Catholics, the Anglicans, the OO's, some Protestant Traditions, base [some of their] teachings on the same fathers and early "saints".

Would you be a little more clear?  What exactly are you saying? 
The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

Actually, Mor's face shineth like the Sun.

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • Take comfort in the warmth of the Jacuzzi of Oriental Orthodoxy
  • Moderator
  • Protospatharios
  • *****
  • Posts: 32,617
  • Pope Pius XIII, play for us!
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: The Ancienter Faith
  • Jurisdiction: East
I think the modern saints. Because they are the ones who need to make sense of their BS. Cause... The Catholics, the Anglicans, the OO's, some Protestant Traditions, base [some of their] teachings on the same fathers and early "saints".

Would you be a little more clear?  What exactly are you saying? 

Would you be a little more clear?  What exactly are you saying?  Please respond within twenty-four (24) hours. 

Mor Ephrem, moderator
The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

Actually, Mor's face shineth like the Sun.

Offline Skydive

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 656
I think the modern saints. Because they are the ones who need to make sense of their BS. Cause... The Catholics, the Anglicans, the OO's, some Protestant Traditions, base [some of their] teachings on the same fathers and early "saints".

Would you be a little more clear?  What exactly are you saying? 

Would you be a little more clear?  What exactly are you saying?  Please respond within twenty-four (24) hours. 

Mor Ephrem, moderator


BS - CRAP. OR WHAT DO YOU MEAN? MORE CLEAR WITH WHAT?
Don't use your signature to complain about moderation.  -PtA

"I will not attack your doctrines nor your creeds if they accord liberty to me. If they hold thought to be dangerous - if they aver that doubt is a crime, then I attack them one and all, because they enslave the minds of men."

Robert Green Ingersoll

Offline hecma925

  • Non-clairvoyant, but you can call me Elder
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 14,007
  • Unbreakable! He's alive, dammit! It's a MIRACLE!
  • Faith: Truthful Chalcedonian Truther
  • Jurisdiction: Candle-lighting Cross Kisser
I think the modern saints. Because they are the ones who need to make sense of their BS. Cause... The Catholics, the Anglicans, the OO's, some Protestant Traditions, base [some of their] teachings on the same fathers and early "saints".

Would you be a little more clear?  What exactly are you saying? 

Would you be a little more clear?  What exactly are you saying?  Please respond within twenty-four (24) hours. 

Mor Ephrem, moderator


BS - CRAP. OR WHAT DO YOU MEAN? MORE CLEAR WITH WHAT?

Yeesh, no need to shout.
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Once Christ has filled the Cross, it can never be empty again.

"But God doesn't need your cookies!  Arrive on time!"

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,017
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Diocese of the South (OCA)
I think the modern saints. Because they are the ones who need to make sense of their BS. Cause... The Catholics, the Anglicans, the OO's, some Protestant Traditions, base [some of their] teachings on the same fathers and early "saints".

Would you be a little more clear?  What exactly are you saying?  

Would you be a little more clear?  What exactly are you saying?  Please respond within twenty-four (24) hours.  

Mor Ephrem, moderator


BS - CRAP. OR WHAT DO YOU MEAN? MORE CLEAR WITH WHAT?

Couple of thoughts.

1. We are all guests here except for a number of folks who are responsible to make sure that the conversation is in accordance with the Forum rules, with which you should be familiar. These folks are our moderators but are also free to post as regular folks. We know when they post as moderators when they use green ink. Now, let me as you a question: are you color blind by any chance and thus did not notice that Mor Ephrem posted in green and asked you an official moderator question?

2. Posting in all caps is considered shouting and thus very rude. Let me ask you another question: are you ignorant of this convention or were you rude on purpose?

3. Finally, shouting also causes folks to get upset, as was I. If you do not mind, I would like to ask you to apologize for upsetting me and promise that you will never, ever do that again.

Thanks.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2014, 05:09:47 PM by Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) »

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • Take comfort in the warmth of the Jacuzzi of Oriental Orthodoxy
  • Moderator
  • Protospatharios
  • *****
  • Posts: 32,617
  • Pope Pius XIII, play for us!
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: The Ancienter Faith
  • Jurisdiction: East
I think the modern saints. Because they are the ones who need to make sense of their BS. Cause... The Catholics, the Anglicans, the OO's, some Protestant Traditions, base [some of their] teachings on the same fathers and early "saints".

Would you be a little more clear?  What exactly are you saying? 

Would you be a little more clear?  What exactly are you saying?  Please respond within twenty-four (24) hours. 

Mor Ephrem, moderator


BS - CRAP. OR WHAT DO YOU MEAN? MORE CLEAR WITH WHAT?

The modern saints are the ones who need (sic) to make sense of whose BS?
The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

Actually, Mor's face shineth like the Sun.

Offline Cavaradossi

  • 法網恢恢,疏而不漏
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,941
Their teachings are not any less important. The catholicity of the faith has as a consequence that it should not matter which saint one reads (if they left us any writings, of course), as the saints all encountered and experienced the same living God and believed in the same catholic faith. But we should be careful not to take saints in isolation, as they can only be understood in the context of the Scriptures, the councils, and the writings of other saints.c
« Last Edit: May 12, 2014, 06:54:22 PM by Cavaradossi »
Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.

Offline yeshuaisiam

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,695
  • A pulling horse cannot kick.
Their teachings are not any less important. The catholicity of the faith has as a consequence that it should not matter which saint one reads (if they left us any writings, of course), as the saints all encountered and experienced the same living God and believed in the same catholic faith. But we should be careful not to take saints in isolation, as they can only be understood in the context of the Scriptures, the councils, and the writings of other saints.c

I would not use the term B.S., however, saints of the EO church have disagreed with each other before.  Quartodecimanism is a prime example when the EO St. Polycarp wanted to keep the passover feast (rather than Sunday Easter/Pascha).  So in this instance we have two who lived at the same time in an argument.  They came to an agreement to respect one another's feast timing without schism.

So of course there have been varied "things" that have differed through time.   
 
Later of course there was a schism partially over "and the son" amongst other issues.

Different saints teachings & bishops teachings & the earliest Christian teachings do sometimes butt heads.  I suppose this may be a good thing and a bad thing. 

For those on Earth at this time - There is a reason for the "vote" system within the church.  The issue exists when bishops don't embrace after the vote and schisms happen.

I've been plenty in that whirlwind  :(  Some of the saddest moments in the church is during schisms.   Seen lots of ugliness by the headstrong, pain by the forgiving and just don't want to fight.   Then there are the nuns caught in the middle sometimes :(

For those butting heads with those reposed and the decisions that were made at that time, I really can't comment because  ???  - whatyagonnado?   I guess at that point you have to agree or disagree with their decisions.   At which point if the decisions work their way into the church, then you either embrace or walk.



I learned how to be more frugal and save money at http://www.livingpress.com

Offline Skydive

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 656
I think the modern saints. Because they are the ones who need to make sense of their BS. Cause... The Catholics, the Anglicans, the OO's, some Protestant Traditions, base [some of their] teachings on the same fathers and early "saints".

Would you be a little more clear?  What exactly are you saying? 

Would you be a little more clear?  What exactly are you saying?  Please respond within twenty-four (24) hours. 

Mor Ephrem, moderator


BS - CRAP. OR WHAT DO YOU MEAN? MORE CLEAR WITH WHAT?

The modern saints are the ones who need (sic) to make sense of whose BS?

THE EARLY CHURCH FATHERS'
 Thanks.  Since you've made clear your intent to dispute (or in this case, dismiss outright) Orthodox teaching in Faith Issues, in violation of forum rules, you are being warned for sixty (60) days. 

If you would like to appeal this decision, please PM me.

Mor Ephrem, moderator
Don't use your signature to complain about moderation.  -PtA

"I will not attack your doctrines nor your creeds if they accord liberty to me. If they hold thought to be dangerous - if they aver that doubt is a crime, then I attack them one and all, because they enslave the minds of men."

Robert Green Ingersoll

Offline Skydive

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 656
Their teachings are not any less important. The catholicity of the faith has as a consequence that it should not matter which saint one reads (if they left us any writings, of course), as the saints all encountered and experienced the same living God and believed in the same catholic faith. But we should be careful not to take saints in isolation, as they can only be understood in the context of the Scriptures, the councils, and the writings of other saints.c

Luther read the 'catholic' early church fathers, so did Calvin, Zwingli etc. So does the RCC, so does the OOC, so do the Nestorians,etc.
Don't use your signature to complain about moderation.  -PtA

"I will not attack your doctrines nor your creeds if they accord liberty to me. If they hold thought to be dangerous - if they aver that doubt is a crime, then I attack them one and all, because they enslave the minds of men."

Robert Green Ingersoll

Offline LBK

  • No Reporting Allowed
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,483
  • Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!
  • Faith: Orthodox
I think the modern saints. Because they are the ones who need to make sense of their BS. Cause... The Catholics, the Anglicans, the OO's, some Protestant Traditions, base [some of their] teachings on the same fathers and early "saints".

Would you be a little more clear?  What exactly are you saying? 

Would you be a little more clear?  What exactly are you saying?  Please respond within twenty-four (24) hours. 

Mor Ephrem, moderator


BS - CRAP. OR WHAT DO YOU MEAN? MORE CLEAR WITH WHAT?

The modern saints are the ones who need (sic) to make sense of whose BS?

THE EARLY CHURCH FATHERS'

So you're saying that what the early church fathers wrote and taught is, to use your description, BS?
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline Skydive

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 656
I think the modern saints. Because they are the ones who need to make sense of their BS. Cause... The Catholics, the Anglicans, the OO's, some Protestant Traditions, base [some of their] teachings on the same fathers and early "saints".

Would you be a little more clear?  What exactly are you saying? 

Would you be a little more clear?  What exactly are you saying?  Please respond within twenty-four (24) hours. 

Mor Ephrem, moderator


BS - CRAP. OR WHAT DO YOU MEAN? MORE CLEAR WITH WHAT?

The modern saints are the ones who need (sic) to make sense of whose BS?

THE EARLY CHURCH FATHERS'

So you're saying that what the early church fathers wrote and taught is, to use your description, BS?

?
Don't use your signature to complain about moderation.  -PtA

"I will not attack your doctrines nor your creeds if they accord liberty to me. If they hold thought to be dangerous - if they aver that doubt is a crime, then I attack them one and all, because they enslave the minds of men."

Robert Green Ingersoll

Offline LBK

  • No Reporting Allowed
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,483
  • Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!
  • Faith: Orthodox
I think the modern saints. Because they are the ones who need to make sense of their BS. Cause... The Catholics, the Anglicans, the OO's, some Protestant Traditions, base [some of their] teachings on the same fathers and early "saints".

Would you be a little more clear?  What exactly are you saying? 

Would you be a little more clear?  What exactly are you saying?  Please respond within twenty-four (24) hours. 

Mor Ephrem, moderator


BS - CRAP. OR WHAT DO YOU MEAN? MORE CLEAR WITH WHAT?

The modern saints are the ones who need (sic) to make sense of whose BS?

THE EARLY CHURCH FATHERS'

So you're saying that what the early church fathers wrote and taught is, to use your description, BS?

?

Come now, my post is clear enough.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline Skydive

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 656
I think the modern saints. Because they are the ones who need to make sense of their BS. Cause... The Catholics, the Anglicans, the OO's, some Protestant Traditions, base [some of their] teachings on the same fathers and early "saints".

Would you be a little more clear?  What exactly are you saying? 

Would you be a little more clear?  What exactly are you saying?  Please respond within twenty-four (24) hours. 

Mor Ephrem, moderator


BS - CRAP. OR WHAT DO YOU MEAN? MORE CLEAR WITH WHAT?

The modern saints are the ones who need (sic) to make sense of whose BS?

THE EARLY CHURCH FATHERS'

So you're saying that what the early church fathers wrote and taught is, to use your description, BS?

?

Come now, my post is clear enough.

?
Don't use your signature to complain about moderation.  -PtA

"I will not attack your doctrines nor your creeds if they accord liberty to me. If they hold thought to be dangerous - if they aver that doubt is a crime, then I attack them one and all, because they enslave the minds of men."

Robert Green Ingersoll

Offline LBK

  • No Reporting Allowed
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,483
  • Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!
  • Faith: Orthodox
I think the modern saints. Because they are the ones who need to make sense of their BS. Cause... The Catholics, the Anglicans, the OO's, some Protestant Traditions, base [some of their] teachings on the same fathers and early "saints".

Would you be a little more clear?  What exactly are you saying? 

Would you be a little more clear?  What exactly are you saying?  Please respond within twenty-four (24) hours. 

Mor Ephrem, moderator


BS - CRAP. OR WHAT DO YOU MEAN? MORE CLEAR WITH WHAT?

The modern saints are the ones who need (sic) to make sense of whose BS?

THE EARLY CHURCH FATHERS'

So you're saying that what the early church fathers wrote and taught is, to use your description, BS?

?

Come now, my post is clear enough.

?

Both my posts follow on from what you posted in response to Mor Ephrem's questions.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline Skydive

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 656
I think the modern saints. Because they are the ones who need to make sense of their BS. Cause... The Catholics, the Anglicans, the OO's, some Protestant Traditions, base [some of their] teachings on the same fathers and early "saints".

Would you be a little more clear?  What exactly are you saying? 

Would you be a little more clear?  What exactly are you saying?  Please respond within twenty-four (24) hours. 

Mor Ephrem, moderator


BS - CRAP. OR WHAT DO YOU MEAN? MORE CLEAR WITH WHAT?

The modern saints are the ones who need (sic) to make sense of whose BS?

THE EARLY CHURCH FATHERS'

So you're saying that what the early church fathers wrote and taught is, to use your description, BS?

?

Come now, my post is clear enough.

?

Both my posts follow on from what you posted in response to Mor Ephrem's questions.

?
Don't use your signature to complain about moderation.  -PtA

"I will not attack your doctrines nor your creeds if they accord liberty to me. If they hold thought to be dangerous - if they aver that doubt is a crime, then I attack them one and all, because they enslave the minds of men."

Robert Green Ingersoll

Offline Kerdy

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,813
Saints are all holy persons. Are the teachings of modern Orthodox saints as important as the early church fathers?

I would say it depends on the subject material.  What the Saints faced in their culture may be related to our culture, but it may need a modern understanding.  If it is about core Church belief, they would know better than we would.

Offline john_mo

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 894
I think the modern saints. Because they are the ones who need to make sense of their BS. Cause... The Catholics, the Anglicans, the OO's, some Protestant Traditions, base [some of their] teachings on the same fathers and early "saints".

Would you be a little more clear?  What exactly are you saying? 

Would you be a little more clear?  What exactly are you saying?  Please respond within twenty-four (24) hours. 

Mor Ephrem, moderator


BS - CRAP. OR WHAT DO YOU MEAN? MORE CLEAR WITH WHAT?

The modern saints are the ones who need (sic) to make sense of whose BS?

THE EARLY CHURCH FATHERS'

So you're saying that what the early church fathers wrote and taught is, to use your description, BS?

?

Come now, my post is clear enough.

?

Both my posts follow on from what you posted in response to Mor Ephrem's questions.

?

Skydive, are you being deliberately confusing (aka trolling)?
Love is not blind; that is the last thing that it is. Love is bound; and the more it is bound the less it is blind.

—G.K. Chesterton

Offline LizaSymonenko

  • Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
  • Global Moderator
  • Hoplitarches
  • ******
  • Posts: 15,502
    • St.Mary the Protectress Ukrainian Orthodox Cathedral
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.

What I think Skydive is trying to say is...that per the question - "are the teachings of modern day saints as important as the early Church Fathers"....

Is that the modern saints have to stand on their own, and lead today's Church.  The teachings of the Early Church Fathers are adhered to and recognized not only by the Orthodox Church, but, also by the other Churches, as well...and often these same teachings have been warped and misunderstood...

...leaving it to the modern day Saints to ensure the validity of the teachings of today's Church.

At least, that is what I think he is trying to say.

Personally, I find them both equally important.  Where would we be without the Church Fathers and Mothers?  The knowledge and wisdom they have shared with us is priceless.

Certainly, Christ taught us all we need to know...but, these "refresher courses" are invaluable.  The humility and wisdom with which they speak....the courage they show...the unrelenting conviction in Christ....serves to strengthen us all.

Their witness to the teachings of our Savior bolsters us, for we often lose sight of the goal through our weakness, selfishness and egocentric attitudes.

God continues to share His Wisdom with us, through His saints - old and new and some still living.

They are all important....and we are all called to join their ranks.

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria

Offline LBK

  • No Reporting Allowed
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,483
  • Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!
  • Faith: Orthodox

What I think Skydive is trying to say is...that per the question - "are the teachings of modern day saints as important as the early Church Fathers"....

Is that the modern saints have to stand on their own, and lead today's Church.  The teachings of the Early Church Fathers are adhered to and recognized not only by the Orthodox Church, but, also by the other Churches, as well...and often these same teachings have been warped and misunderstood...

...leaving it to the modern day Saints to ensure the validity of the teachings of today's Church.

At least, that is what I think he is trying to say.


It would be good if this was what he was indeed trying to say, but there's still the problem of his use of a vulgar, if not offensive, term when referring to teachings of the Fathers.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2014, 09:59:48 AM by LBK »
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline TheTrisagion

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,814
  • All good things come to an end
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
I'm not sure there is a distinction. The teachings of the modern saints and the teachings of the early Church Fathers all originate from God.  They aren't their own private opinions.  Sure they had disagreements about more minor things, but the basics of what we need to know are consistent. It isn't profitable to pit them against each other any more than it is profitable to try and pit the teachings in the Gospels against the teachings in the Epistles.
God bless!

Offline DeniseDenise

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,458
  • This place holds to nothing....
  • Faith: Does it matter?
  • Jurisdiction: Unverifiable, so irrelevant
I'm not sure there is a distinction. The teachings of the modern saints and the teachings of the early Church Fathers all originate from God.  They aren't their own private opinions.  Sure they had disagreements about more minor things, but the basics of what we need to know are consistent. It isn't profitable to pit them against each other any more than it is profitable to try and pit the teachings in the Gospels against the teachings in the Epistles.


This.

They form one continuous line of teachings, and cannot be split into factions that would be pitted against the other.  They walk hand in hand through time, to bring their combined teachings to us.

Think of it this way, just like some folks prefer Beethoven over Mozart, some prefer Mozart over Beethoven....this does not change the 'value' of either overall to the world.
All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Offline Gunnarr

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,089
Perhaps the early fathers have overstayed their welcome and have become less relevant compared to modern theological thoughts and realities. I do not believe this but it is an argument that has been said. I will be posting a large thread which also addresses partly this argument, arguments in favor of this belief.
I am a demonic servant! Beware!

Offline Skydive

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 656
I think the modern saints. Because they are the ones who need to make sense of their BS. Cause... The Catholics, the Anglicans, the OO's, some Protestant Traditions, base [some of their] teachings on the same fathers and early "saints".

Would you be a little more clear?  What exactly are you saying? 

Would you be a little more clear?  What exactly are you saying?  Please respond within twenty-four (24) hours. 

Mor Ephrem, moderator


BS - CRAP. OR WHAT DO YOU MEAN? MORE CLEAR WITH WHAT?

The modern saints are the ones who need (sic) to make sense of whose BS?

THE EARLY CHURCH FATHERS'
 Thanks.  Since you've made clear your intent to dispute (or in this case, dismiss outright) Orthodox teaching in Faith Issues, in violation of forum rules, you are being warned for sixty (60) days. 

If you would like to appeal this decision, please PM me.

Mor Ephrem, moderator

No I didn't. YOU'RE WRONG!
 Very well.  For public dispute of a moderatorial decision despite  the invitation to appeal via PM, I'm putting you on post moderation for the next ninety-nine (99) days. 

If you would like to appeal this decision, please PM me. 

Mor Ephrem, moderator
Don't use your signature to complain about moderation.  -PtA

"I will not attack your doctrines nor your creeds if they accord liberty to me. If they hold thought to be dangerous - if they aver that doubt is a crime, then I attack them one and all, because they enslave the minds of men."

Robert Green Ingersoll

Offline TheTrisagion

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,814
  • All good things come to an end
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
I think the modern saints. Because they are the ones who need to make sense of their BS. Cause... The Catholics, the Anglicans, the OO's, some Protestant Traditions, base [some of their] teachings on the same fathers and early "saints".

Would you be a little more clear?  What exactly are you saying? 

Would you be a little more clear?  What exactly are you saying?  Please respond within twenty-four (24) hours. 

Mor Ephrem, moderator


BS - CRAP. OR WHAT DO YOU MEAN? MORE CLEAR WITH WHAT?

The modern saints are the ones who need (sic) to make sense of whose BS?

THE EARLY CHURCH FATHERS'
 Thanks.  Since you've made clear your intent to dispute (or in this case, dismiss outright) Orthodox teaching in Faith Issues, in violation of forum rules, you are being warned for sixty (60) days. 

If you would like to appeal this decision, please PM me.

Mor Ephrem, moderator

No I didn't. YOU'RE WRONG!
Hmm, you might want to quit while your ahead. (?)  Arguing with mods generally does not end well.
God bless!

Offline Skydive

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 656
Some of early church fathers' writings are 'politics' , some of them are bs and written in the entertainment of certain ecclesiastic and sociological trends and politics. As it is today... But today not all people are mindless sheeps and people's culture and access to information is infinitesimal higher then it was back then for people to get away with their affirmations unverified so easy. (Some) of the modern saints are part of the lower elite who put the truth before everything and really strived to understand and live the faith.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2014, 09:07:57 AM by Skydive »
Don't use your signature to complain about moderation.  -PtA

"I will not attack your doctrines nor your creeds if they accord liberty to me. If they hold thought to be dangerous - if they aver that doubt is a crime, then I attack them one and all, because they enslave the minds of men."

Robert Green Ingersoll

Offline Αριστοκλής

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,031
This entire thread is a sham. Without specific references to specific saints, exact writings, or even definitions of whom an "early" versus a "modern" saint might be it is bound to go in circles proving nothing.
"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides

Offline Skydive

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 656
This entire thread is a sham. Without specific references to specific saints, exact writings, or even definitions of whom an "early" versus a "modern" saint might be it is bound to go in circles proving nothing.

your loss.

we are speaking in general taken as a whole.

the ECF wrote in extremely interpretable(open to interpretation) and political manners and trends.

my point is all Xtian traditions mention the same church fathers but extract different doctrines.


« Last Edit: May 14, 2014, 10:01:04 AM by Skydive »
Don't use your signature to complain about moderation.  -PtA

"I will not attack your doctrines nor your creeds if they accord liberty to me. If they hold thought to be dangerous - if they aver that doubt is a crime, then I attack them one and all, because they enslave the minds of men."

Robert Green Ingersoll

Offline Αριστοκλής

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,031
This entire thread is a sham. Without specific references to specific saints, exact writings, or even definitions of whom an "early" versus a "modern" saint might be it is bound to go in circles proving nothing.

your loss.

we are speaking in general taken as a whole.

the ECF wrote in extremely interpretable(open to interpretation) and political manners and trends.

my point is all Xtian traditions mention the same church fathers but extract different doctrines.




Got ANY specifics?
"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides