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Author Topic: Must God Submit His Decisions to Us for Our Approval?  (Read 2879 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: September 25, 2008, 01:35:09 AM »


A quote from that article:

Quote
God made that choice. God can do and will do what He wants to do.

What god, exactly, do you worship...Loki, per chance? If your god doesn't have well reasoned answers for his conduct we can only logically conclude that he's insane. Heck, even Loki had reason behind his madness...apparently your god doesn't even bother with that...he/she/it simply delights in pure insanity. Frankly, given the choice, I'll kneel before the roulette wheel...at least I can guess at the probability of the result...a step above your god.
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« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2008, 01:47:23 AM »

^ LOL! Wonder what the odds are he'll earn "moderated" status, again, soon?
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« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2008, 01:52:30 AM »

Quote
God made that choice. God can do and will do what He wants to do.

What god, exactly, do you worship...Loki, per chance? If your god doesn't have well reasoned answers for his conduct we can only logically conclude that he's insane. Heck, even Loki had reason behind his madness...apparently your god doesn't even bother with that...he/she/it simply delights in pure insanity. Frankly, given the choice, I'll kneel before the roulette wheel...at least I can guess at the probability of the result...a step above your god.
What is that to you, Greeki?  Must God submit all His decisions to you for your approval? Angry
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« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2008, 01:56:11 AM »

Quote
God made that choice. God can do and will do what He wants to do.

What god, exactly, do you worship...Loki, per chance? If your god doesn't have well reasoned answers for his conduct we can only logically conclude that he's insane. Heck, even Loki had reason behind his madness...apparently your god doesn't even bother with that...he/she/it simply delights in pure insanity. Frankly, given the choice, I'll kneel before the roulette wheel...at least I can guess at the probability of the result...a step above your god.
What is that to you, Greeki?  Must God submit all His decisions to you for your approval? Angry

Not at all...if there is a god it can obviously do as it likes...but it should not expect to be regarded as reasonable and respectable amongst men if it does not act in a rational manner.
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« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2008, 02:01:19 AM »

Quote
God made that choice. God can do and will do what He wants to do.

What god, exactly, do you worship...Loki, per chance? If your god doesn't have well reasoned answers for his conduct we can only logically conclude that he's insane. Heck, even Loki had reason behind his madness...apparently your god doesn't even bother with that...he/she/it simply delights in pure insanity. Frankly, given the choice, I'll kneel before the roulette wheel...at least I can guess at the probability of the result...a step above your god.
What is that to you, Greeki?  Must God submit all His decisions to you for your approval? Angry

Not at all...if there is a god it can obviously do as it likes...but it should not expect to be regarded as reasonable and respectable amongst men if it does not act in a rational manner.
And how is that remotely relevant to dialogue between Orthodox and non-Orthodox Christians?  Last I heard, atheism is not a Christian religion.  IOW, I find your antitheistic rant totally out of place for this board.
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« Reply #5 on: September 25, 2008, 02:06:40 AM »

And how is that remotely relevant to dialogue between Orthodox and non-Orthodox Christians?  Last I heard, atheism is not a Christian religion.  IOW, I find your antitheistic rant totally out of place for this board.

Interesting...I have heard several Orthodox sources claim that atheism is the logical conclusion of western Christianity.
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« Reply #6 on: September 25, 2008, 02:12:23 AM »

Plus, I was initially only commenting on the logic of the argument presented...an argument that several Orthodox Christians would have objected to. My more atheistic comments only came in response to the question YOU posed to me.
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« Reply #7 on: September 25, 2008, 08:27:25 AM »

If your god doesn't have well reasoned answers for his conduct we can only logically conclude that he's insane.
Or it could mean that that He is in Love (which often causes one to behave in irrational ways....like willingly submitting to torture and execution for instance). Wink
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« Reply #8 on: September 25, 2008, 01:25:57 PM »

If your god doesn't have well reasoned answers for his conduct we can only logically conclude that he's insane.
Or it could mean that that He is in Love (which often causes one to behave in irrational ways....like willingly submitting to torture and execution for instance). Wink

Love is often a form of insanity...a good one I'll grant you, but still a form of insanity. Wink
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« Reply #9 on: September 25, 2008, 04:39:46 PM »

Love is often a form of insanity...a good one I'll grant you, but still a form of insanity. Wink
I agree. In fact, that's my point.
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« Reply #10 on: September 25, 2008, 08:03:30 PM »

Love is often a form of insanity...a good one I'll grant you, but still a form of insanity. Wink
I agree. In fact, that's my point.

George is love in the DSM? Cheesy
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« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2008, 12:49:23 AM »

Is this thread about female priesthood or about God's seemingly insanity to do things without reason?

I'm sure we can discuss the reason of female priesthood, but we know where that would lead us  Wink

Speaking of insanity and love, love is insane and absurd, yet works!  If there is one thing Christ wanted to leave everyone to learn from or to summarize His ministry, it's love, even to your enemies, that insanity and absurdity that moved Tertullian to believe.

God bless.
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« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2008, 04:40:02 AM »

^ in which case you DO understand ozGeorge's reply post #9 above.
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« Reply #13 on: September 26, 2008, 04:56:19 AM »

George is love in the DSM? Cheesy
No, but it most definitely should be, especially in God's case:

Unconditional Love- a bizarre delusional disorder characterised by an irrational positive regard towards another despite insult and abuse from the object of the patient's Unconditional Love, and even in the absence of a mutuality of this positive regard between the patient and the object of their love. The patient will often exhibit self destructive behaviour if they believe that this behaviour will somehow benefit the object of their Unconditional Love. To date, there has been only one clinically diagnosed case of this disorder.

I have absolutely no doubt that if Our Lord Jesus Christ was Incarnated today, He would have been scheduled under the Mental Health Act as an involuntary patient and kept under continual suicide watch and probably doped up to the eyeballs on psychotropic medication.
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« Reply #14 on: September 26, 2008, 07:25:17 AM »

^ It's a plausible idea, seeing how in the absence of psychotropic medication our best solution was to kill Him.
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« Reply #15 on: September 26, 2008, 12:58:09 PM »

Perhaps people mistake this type of love for a low self-esteem.  Unconditional love coupled with a low self-esteem might need psychiatric help, imo (well, of course different from selfless humility; low self-esteem I would consider a depressing case). 

This reminds me of a story.  I remember a friend, being the humble Copt he is, was interviewed for medical school and told the interviewer "Where I come from, I was taught not to think highly of myself, but to act in humility," and was rejected for having a low self-esteem.  The next interview, he was as cocky as the Governator (even though he didn't mean it...lol).  Tongue

God bless.
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« Reply #16 on: September 26, 2008, 03:15:16 PM »

Quote
God made that choice. God can do and will do what He wants to do.

What god, exactly, do you worship...Loki, per chance? If your god doesn't have well reasoned answers for his conduct we can only logically conclude that he's insane. Heck, even Loki had reason behind his madness...apparently your god doesn't even bother with that...he/she/it simply delights in pure insanity. Frankly, given the choice, I'll kneel before the roulette wheel...at least I can guess at the probability of the result...a step above your god.
What is that to you, Greeki?  Must God submit all His decisions to you for your approval? Angry

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« Reply #17 on: October 01, 2008, 03:29:42 PM »

I've never been a big fan of the concept of "unconditional love" in every-day life. "Unconditional love" means that no matter how badly someone acts, or how cruelly he behaves towards others, society is obliged to love him. It also sends the message that no matter how badly or cruelly one behaves, he will continue to be esteemed (and loved) by society. Is that a good message to send?

Now having said that, the love of parent to child should be pretty "close" to unconditional.  But when the child becomes an adult, if he then acts with repeated spite or cruelty toward his parents, while it's certainly very noble of the parents to continue loving their child, I see no obligation for them to do so.

If love is unconditional, why be good/ethical/moral?

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« Reply #18 on: October 01, 2008, 04:05:39 PM »

But when the child becomes an adult, if he then acts with repeated spite or cruelty toward his parents, while it's certainly very noble of the parents to continue loving their child, I see no obligation for them to do so.
So you see no obligation to do what is good and noble?
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« Reply #19 on: October 01, 2008, 04:15:49 PM »

But when the child becomes an adult, if he then acts with repeated spite or cruelty toward his parents, while it's certainly very noble of the parents to continue loving their child, I see no obligation for them to do so.
So you see no obligation to do what is good and noble?

Good point. I wasn't as precise as I should have been. I meant that I could not fault them for not loving a son who has been spiteful and genuinely cruel towards them.

But I agree - if the parents have it within themselves to unconditionally love their son in this situation, that is very good of them.

But again, if the son knows that no matter how he acts his parents will love him "unconditionally," then what motivation is there for the son to act kindly?
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« Reply #20 on: October 01, 2008, 05:30:35 PM »

But again, if the son knows that no matter how he acts his parents will love him "unconditionally," then what motivation is there for the son to act kindly?
But then, what of St. Paul's word that love keeps no record of wrongs?  What of the prodigal's father, who loved his son in spite of the debauched life the lad chose to live?  What is love, then, if it is not unconditional?
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« Reply #21 on: October 01, 2008, 05:58:12 PM »

But again, if the son knows that no matter how he acts his parents will love him "unconditionally," then what motivation is there for the son to act kindly?
This sounds to me like a false dichotomy. Could not the parents both love their son and correct him?
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« Reply #22 on: October 01, 2008, 09:47:40 PM »

Quote
But then, what of St. Paul's word that love keeps no record of wrongs?  What of the prodigal's father, who loved his son in spite of the debauched life the lad chose to live?  What is love, then, if it is not unconditional?

YES these are our ideals - to be strived for and emulated. I agree with you!

Let me put it another way. Is it right to expect another human being to love me unconditionally regardless of how badly or cruelly I treat him or her?

If someone loves me no matter what I do - whether I treat them well or badly - doesn't it render the person who loves me a "love machine" whose love cannot be affected by my behavior? Isn't that "love" simply an amoral, automatic response?

God can do anything except force someone to love Him. If He can't force someone to love Him, how can we demand that others love us regardless of how we act?
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« Reply #23 on: October 02, 2008, 12:18:54 AM »

Quote
But then, what of St. Paul's word that love keeps no record of wrongs?  What of the prodigal's father, who loved his son in spite of the debauched life the lad chose to live?  What is love, then, if it is not unconditional?

YES these are our ideals - to be strived for and emulated. I agree with you!

Let me put it another way. Is it right to expect another human being to love me unconditionally regardless of how badly or cruelly I treat him or her?

If someone loves me no matter what I do - whether I treat them well or badly - doesn't it render the person who loves me a "love machine" whose love cannot be affected by my behavior? Isn't that "love" simply an amoral, automatic response?

God can do anything except force someone to love Him. If He can't force someone to love Him, how can we demand that others love us regardless of how we act?

I think the key here is something a friend taught me:  Love without expectation that you will be loved in return.  You cannot control other people and make them love you, so don't even try.  All you CAN do is love them regardless of what they do to you.
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« Reply #24 on: October 02, 2008, 12:22:20 AM »

I would say loving those who hate you is as effective as cleaning up where someone else littered.  If no one does this, there is no progress and no reward in this world.

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To sum up all in one word-what the soul is in the body, that are Christians in the world. The soul is dispersed through all the members of the body, and Christians are scattered through all the cities of the world. The soul dwells in the body, yet is not of the body; and Christians dwell in the world, yet are not of the world.

The invisible soul is guarded by the visible body, and Christians are known indeed to be in the world, but their godliness remains invisible. The flesh hates the soul, and wars against it, though itself suffering no injury, because it is prevented from enjoying pleasures; the world also hates the Christians, though in nowise injured, because they abjure pleasures. The soul loves the flesh that hates it, and [loves also] the members; Christians likewise love those that hate them. The soul is imprisoned in the body, yet preserves that very body; and Christians are confined in the world as in a prison, and yet they are the preservers of the world. The immortal soul dwells in a mortal tabernacle; and Christians dwell as sojourners in corruptible [bodies], looking for an incorruptible dwelling in the heavens. The soul, when but ill-provided with food and drink, becomes better; in like manner, the Christians, though subjected day by day to punishment, increase the more in number. God has assigned them this illustrious position, which it were unlawful for them to forsake.
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« Reply #25 on: October 02, 2008, 11:57:44 AM »

I think the key here is something a friend taught me:  Love without expectation that you will be loved in return.  You cannot control other people and make them love you, so don't even try.  All you CAN do is love them regardless of what they do to you.

Yes, I agree with that. When I say "Is it right to expect another human being to love me unconditionally regardless of how badly or cruelly I treat him or her?", I don't mean that I'm expecting that love as I would expect a cashier to give me change after I've paid for an item at the store. By expect I mean as a matter of what the person is obligated to do.

Please don't get me wrong. Again, Christ's all-consuming, all-forgiving love is the ideal and yes, we are to demonstrate His love wherever and whenever possible. But since we live in a fallen world and not everyone is a believer, before there can be an ideal there has to be a minimum standard. And all I'm saying is that if I treat someone badly or cruelly, it's hard to infer that they should then love me in return. Christ does that because He is God; but this is extraordinarily difficult for average people to do, and I do not judge those who would not or cannot love someone who serially engages in cruelty or evil.

Consider this: if love is truly "unconditional," then how could God who loves people unconditionally tell them to get lost? Jesus said, many will come to Me and say, "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy, and do miracles in Your name?" And He will say unto them, "I never knew you. Depart from me, ye who work iniquity." (Matt. 7:22-23). So, that's a tough theological nut to crack, unless God's love is not "unconditional" in the colloquial way we use and understand that term: loving someone regardless of how they act.

Some refinement of "unconditional love" may be needed. Surely, there are perspectives through which God's love can been seen as "unconditional." St. Paul does say nothing can separate us from the love of Christ (Romans 8:38-39), not demons, angels, or anything in this world or the next... but notice that the one thing St. Paul does not include in his litany of those things is... ourselves.

I can separate myself from God's love if I engage in cruelty or evil, just as Israel separated herself from God's love when she engaged in evil. God cannot force someone to love or obey Him, and people can CHOOSE to walk away from His love. But because of His infinite mercy, God always reached out to Israel, and Christ always reaches out to us: He continually calls us back to Himself. Perhaps it's more accurate to say that God's mercy, rather than His love, is unconditional.

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« Reply #26 on: October 02, 2008, 12:56:03 PM »

Consider this: if love is truly "unconditional," then how could God who loves people unconditionally tell them to get lost? Jesus said, many will come to Me and say, "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy, and do miracles in Your name?" And He will say unto them, "I never knew you. Depart from me, ye who work iniquity." (Matt. 7:22-23). So, that's a tough theological nut to crack, unless God's love is not "unconditional" in the colloquial way we use and understand that term: loving someone regardless of how they act.
Simple.  God loves each one of us so much with an unchanging, unconditional love that He will allow us to reject Him in order to protect the freedom of will that He instilled in us.

Quote
Some refinement of "unconditional love" may be needed. Surely, there are perspectives through which God's love can been seen as "unconditional." St. Paul does say nothing can separate us from the love of Christ (Romans 8:38-39), not demons, angels, or anything in this world or the next... but notice that the one thing St. Paul does not include in his litany of those things is... ourselves.
Just because I separate myself from God's love does not make God stop loving me or love me less.

Quote
I can separate myself from God's love if I engage in cruelty or evil, just as Israel separated herself from God's love when she engaged in evil. God cannot force someone to love or obey Him, and people can CHOOSE to walk away from His love. But because of His infinite mercy, God always reached out to Israel, and Christ always reaches out to us: He continually calls us back to Himself. Perhaps it's more accurate to say that God's mercy, rather than His love, is unconditional.
How, then, do you separate God's mercy from His love?  It doesn't seem to me that the two can ever be divided.
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« Reply #27 on: October 02, 2008, 01:07:03 PM »

Quote
How, then, do you separate God's mercy from His love?  It doesn't seem to me that the two can ever be divided.
Yes I agree that it is splitting hairs somewhat.

Anyway I understand your points. It has been a good discussion. Thanks and grace to all !
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