Author Topic: The Orthodox Church of Tomorrow  (Read 40333 times)

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Offline tuesdayschild

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Re: The Orthodox Church of Tomorrow
« Reply #90 on: October 29, 2008, 11:32:54 AM »
I think the notion of a "cultureless" Church is a pipe dream. The Church is flesh and blood, not some ethereal, unconnected ideal floating in mid space....

All Saints of the Orthodox Church are saints in the Slavic tradition or any other Orthodox tradition. I don't where people get this idea that somehow their tradition defines the Church....

The Church is flesh and blood and Spirit.

If the priest had welcomed me home to Russian culture, I have no doubt that I would be referred to by the name of a "proper" saint and struggling to learn Old Slavonic in order to follow the Liturgy.  As it happens, my patron is not from a culture one typically thinks of as Eastern Orthodox (yet he is Orthodox, consistent with what Ukiemeister says), and the Liturgy, save for a few terms, is in my native English.

If the Church were merely flesh and blood, I would agree with AMM.  I would not feel at home at my parish.  But because the Church is Spirit, as well, I am at home.  If the Church were merely flesh and blood, how could I call these strangers, with whom I share neither flesh nor blood, my brothers and sisters?  But because the Church is Spirit, as well, they are my brothers and sisters; we are sons and daughters of the same Father.

So, I agree, there is one Orthodox Tradition, and I am grateful for the Russian immigrants who brought it to my town.  I find I prefer the three-barred cross typically associated with Russian Orthodoxy, not because of where it came from, but because of what it means.

Offline Rosehip

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Re: The Orthodox Church of Tomorrow
« Reply #91 on: October 29, 2008, 11:40:35 AM »
Forgive me, but I still don't quite understand why we as converts with possibly Protestant or Evangelical roots, must entirely give up our "KJV Christianity", whilst the Russian peasants were permitted to cling (to the present day) to many of their pre-christian customs. Is paganism to be preferred to a godly heritage?  I thought one aspect of Orthodoxy was its ability to "baptise" any culture...including, I would think, a Protestant culture.

I guess I can't bring myself to say that everything about my Evangelical cultural exposure was bad. In fact, some aspects were to a certain degree, better than what I am encountering in Orthodoxy. I'm thankful to the Evangelicals for teaching me the importance of a sober, christian life and for their love and knowledge of the Scriptures. To a certain degree, I still agree with the emphasis on adult baptism.

Fortunately, for myself, it was relatively easy to accept many aspects of my borrowed, Russian, culture, because I've had a fair bit of exposure to that culture even as a child. For others who did not have this opportunity, it is much, much more difficult. However, to simply discount "KJV Christianity", well, I don't think that is fair. I think it is a godly culture.
+ Our dear sister Martha (Rosehip) passed away on Dec 20, 2010.  May her memory be eternal! +

Offline SolEX01

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Re: The Orthodox Church of Tomorrow
« Reply #92 on: October 29, 2008, 11:45:12 AM »
The KJV is valid Scripture ... until the Scripture is twisted to satisfy a particular agenda.

A Priest should not use Scripture to tell his flock that the current state of Orthodoxy is doomed to perish because that creates division in the Body of Christ, the Church.

Televangelists generally do not cite from the KJV, preferring the more "modern translations" like the NIV and others.

Even the Gospel read in Orthodox Churches uses the RSV rather than the NKJV or the KJV.

PS: Anyone know what happened to Fr. Peck assuming that the November 2008 Orthodox Observer is unlikely to publish his status?

Offline Rosehip

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Re: The Orthodox Church of Tomorrow
« Reply #93 on: October 29, 2008, 11:49:58 AM »
I've heard plenty of Orthodox priests (likely from more traditional jurisdictions of course) defending the KJV! And what is wrong with it? I grew up with the beautiful language of the Authorized Version, and deeply appreciate it to this day, although I do read other versions for study purposes.
+ Our dear sister Martha (Rosehip) passed away on Dec 20, 2010.  May her memory be eternal! +

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: The Orthodox Church of Tomorrow
« Reply #94 on: October 29, 2008, 12:54:20 PM »
And what is wrong with it?
The KJV Old Testament is based on the Vulgate which is based on the Masoretic text.
When quoting the Scriptures, Christ quotes the Septuagint (e.g. Mark 7:11), the Apostles quote the Septuagint, the Fathers quote from the Septuagint, and we liturgically use the Septuagint only.
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Offline Rosehip

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Re: The Orthodox Church of Tomorrow
« Reply #95 on: October 29, 2008, 01:01:30 PM »
Thank you, Ozgeorge. However, I still do not feel guilty about reading the AV.
+ Our dear sister Martha (Rosehip) passed away on Dec 20, 2010.  May her memory be eternal! +

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: The Orthodox Church of Tomorrow
« Reply #96 on: October 29, 2008, 01:07:20 PM »
Thank you, Ozgeorge. However, I still do not feel guilty about reading the AV.

There's no need to feel guilty for reading it. It's a classic text. It's just not authorized for liturgical use in the Orthodox Church.
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Offline AMM

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Re: The Orthodox Church of Tomorrow
« Reply #97 on: October 29, 2008, 01:21:43 PM »
Quote
Forgive me, but I still don't quite understand why we as converts with possibly Protestant or Evangelical roots, must entirely give up our "KJV Christianity", whilst the Russian peasants were permitted to cling (to the present day) to many of their pre-christian customs.

I don't think anyone is saying that, nor do I think you would find a priest or layperson (a sane anyway) who doesn't appreciate and welcome the addition of converts to the church.  I think the issue as presented in the OP is exactly the opposite though, the problem is the existing people in the church and the need to have a major round of ethnic cleansing in order to set things straight.  "We're converts, we're better, we know what to do, things will die and go down the toilet without us, blah, blah, blah".  Converts can be like consultants, and in this case the worst kind.


Vulgarity replaced  -PtA
« Last Edit: October 29, 2008, 10:29:16 PM by PeterTheAleut »

Offline Elisha

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Re: The Orthodox Church of Tomorrow
« Reply #98 on: October 29, 2008, 01:42:53 PM »
Thank you, Ozgeorge. However, I still do not feel guilty about reading the AV.

There's no need to feel guilty for reading it. It's a classic text. It's just not authorized for liturgical use in the Orthodox Church.


Yes, because the NKJV is what is used. ::) What's used in your parish, ozgeorge or are all readings done in Greek?  I'm sure your priest/bishop must have some existing version for the non-greek speaking to read.

Offline username!

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Re: The Orthodox Church of Tomorrow
« Reply #99 on: October 29, 2008, 01:51:10 PM »
Thank you, Ozgeorge. However, I still do not feel guilty about reading the AV.

There's no need to feel guilty for reading it. It's a classic text. It's just not authorized for liturgical use in the Orthodox Church.


Yes, because the NKJV is what is used. ::) What's used in your parish, ozgeorge or are all readings done in Greek?  I'm sure your priest/bishop must have some existing version for the non-greek speaking to read.

If I read OzGeorge's post correct he's not simply referring to the translation of the bible.  The words are merely the colors of the bigger picture he is painting.  The following arguments only build up what OzGeorge has said.  While certainly we can argue about which version of the bible is to be used we can not overlook the underlying meaning of the post. 
« Last Edit: October 29, 2008, 01:54:21 PM by username! »

Offline AMM

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Re: The Orthodox Church of Tomorrow
« Reply #100 on: October 29, 2008, 02:00:12 PM »
Whichever translation is least ethnic is the best one.

Offline Fr. George

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Re: The Orthodox Church of Tomorrow
« Reply #101 on: October 29, 2008, 02:01:29 PM »
Yes, because the NKJV is what is used. ::)

Not where I'm from, it isn't.  The OT translations used are unique and done from the Septuagint texts contained in the various books.  The NT might have the NKJV as a basis (I haven't checked), but it has been modified to align with the Greek text.
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Offline Fr. George

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Re: The Orthodox Church of Tomorrow
« Reply #102 on: October 29, 2008, 02:02:07 PM »
Whichever translation is least ethnic is the best one.

"Least ethnic?"  Which ones are Ethnic to begin with?
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: The Orthodox Church of Tomorrow
« Reply #103 on: October 29, 2008, 02:21:41 PM »
Whichever translation is least ethnic is the best one.

"Least ethnic?"  Which ones are Ethnic to begin with?

And I would have thought "the most Orthodox" would be the criterion to use....
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: The Orthodox Church of Tomorrow
« Reply #104 on: October 29, 2008, 02:30:16 PM »
Yes, because the NKJV is what is used. ::) What's used in your parish, ozgeorge or are all readings done in Greek?  I'm sure your priest/bishop must have some existing version for the non-greek speaking to read.

Does the OCA use the NKJV for it's Liturgical Old Testament readings?
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Offline Elisha

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Re: The Orthodox Church of Tomorrow
« Reply #105 on: October 29, 2008, 02:32:26 PM »
Yes, because the NKJV is what is used. ::)

Not where I'm from, it isn't.  The OT translations used are unique and done from the Septuagint texts contained in the various books.  The NT might have the NKJV as a basis (I haven't checked), but it has been modified to align with the Greek text.

NT:  That's what I meant.

OT:  in English?  I haven't really paid attention to the book we use for OT readings (the gold bounding of the Gospels and Apostol rather set them apart), so I have no idea what we use or is authorized by the bishop/synod.  If in English, then were they used for the new OSB or do you have any idea why not?

Sorry ozgeorge, it seemed to me as if your didn't think any English version of the Bible was read in church.

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: The Orthodox Church of Tomorrow
« Reply #106 on: October 29, 2008, 02:38:50 PM »
Sorry ozgeorge, it seemed to me as if your didn't think any English version of the Bible was read in church.

I thought I was pretty clear when I said
The KJV Old Testament is based on the Vulgate which is based on the Masoretic text.
When quoting the Scriptures, Christ quotes the Septuagint (e.g. Mark 7:11), the Apostles quote the Septuagint, the Fathers quote from the Septuagint, and we liturgically use the Septuagint only.
But may be I wasn't. Sorry.
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Offline AMM

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Re: The Orthodox Church of Tomorrow
« Reply #107 on: October 29, 2008, 02:39:54 PM »
Whichever translation is least ethnic is the best one.

"Least ethnic?"  Which ones are Ethnic to begin with?

Whichever ones are used by the mendacious, phyletist hierarchy┬« who as studies have shown would lead the church in to utter ruin within 15 years if left unchecked.  Those ones.

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: The Orthodox Church of Tomorrow
« Reply #108 on: October 29, 2008, 02:48:14 PM »
Whichever ones are used by the mendacious, phyletist hierarchy┬« who as studies have shown would lead the church in to utter ruin within 15 years if left unchecked.  Those ones.

How can "studies show" what will happen in the future? Numerical models? Well, we should also remember that a variation of those self same numerical models that the those who try to predict future trends rely on also predicted we would all get filthy rich just by passing bits of paper around and around amongst ourselves.
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Offline Fr. George

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Re: The Orthodox Church of Tomorrow
« Reply #109 on: October 29, 2008, 03:29:34 PM »
Whichever ones are used by the mendacious, phyletist hierarchy┬« who as studies have shown would lead the church in to utter ruin within 15 years if left unchecked.  Those ones.

On the one hand, you're still being coy enough to not be clear.  In fact, I think the fact that you assert that phyletist hierarchy would use a translation of the Bible is laughable (unless we're talking about Pro-American-phyletists, who do indeed exist).

On the other hand, I don't think I really want to ask you to be more clear, as I have the feeling it will lead to some statement that is possibly libelous, or at least quite nasty.  So I'll leave it alone.
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Offline AMM

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Re: The Orthodox Church of Tomorrow
« Reply #110 on: October 29, 2008, 03:33:10 PM »
How can "studies show" what will happen in the future? Numerical models?

I quote from the article.

"Statistical studies taken a mere seven years ago predicted that within 10 years the Orthodox Church in the United States would for all practical purposes, no longer be viable."

As you and I both know, statistics do not lie.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: The Orthodox Church of Tomorrow
« Reply #111 on: October 29, 2008, 05:13:55 PM »
Yes, because the NKJV is what is used. ::) What's used in your parish, ozgeorge or are all readings done in Greek?  I'm sure your priest/bishop must have some existing version for the non-greek speaking to read.

Does the OCA use the NKJV for it's Liturgical Old Testament readings?
Depends on the diocese/parish.  I know of only one English version of the Bible that is explicitly rejected for liturgical use in the OCA, and that is the NRSV.  I'm not sure every parish/diocese uses an English translation of the Septuagint for its OT readings, or has even had one available prior to the recent attempt to publish the Orthodox Study Bible as such a translation.  Most OCA parishes very probably make use of the best English versions available, even though most of them are derived in some way from the Authorized (King James) Version--the [old] RSV is, in fact, such a KJV derivative.
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: The Orthodox Church of Tomorrow
« Reply #112 on: October 29, 2008, 05:19:37 PM »
As you and I both know, statistics do not lie.
"There are three kinds of lies:  lies, damned lies, and statistics."  -Samuel Clemens  ;D
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Offline Elisha

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Re: The Orthodox Church of Tomorrow
« Reply #113 on: October 29, 2008, 05:39:37 PM »
Saw this on a sig line from someone on another board recently and liked it:

There are 10 types of people in the world:  those who understand binary and those who don't.

Offline Papist

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Re: The Orthodox Church of Tomorrow
« Reply #114 on: October 29, 2008, 05:42:15 PM »
Saw this on a sig line from someone on another board recently and liked it:

There are 10 types of people in the world:  those who understand binary and those who don't.
I love this!
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline Fr. George

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Re: The Orthodox Church of Tomorrow
« Reply #115 on: October 29, 2008, 06:21:49 PM »
On the one hand, you're still being coy enough to not be clear.  In fact, I think the fact that you assert that phyletist hierarchy would use a translation of the Bible is laughable (unless we're talking about Pro-American-phyletists, who do indeed exist).

On the other hand, I don't think I really want to ask you to be more clear, as I have the feeling it will lead to some statement that is possibly libelous, or at least quite nasty.  So I'll leave it alone.

I retract my previous statements; now that I'm more aware, the sarcasm of AMM's post is more evident.
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: The Orthodox Church of Tomorrow
« Reply #116 on: October 29, 2008, 07:10:16 PM »
How can "studies show" what will happen in the future? Numerical models?

I quote from the article.

"Statistical studies taken a mere seven years ago predicted that within 10 years the Orthodox Church in the United States would for all practical purposes, no longer be viable."

As you and I both know, statistics do not lie.

LOL :D
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« Last Edit: October 29, 2008, 07:10:45 PM by ozgeorge »
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Offline AMM

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Re: The Orthodox Church of Tomorrow
« Reply #117 on: October 29, 2008, 07:52:43 PM »
I retract my previous statements

Why, you no longer believe the next things I would say would be libelous and nasty?

I'm offended!

Offline Fr. George

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Re: The Orthodox Church of Tomorrow
« Reply #118 on: October 29, 2008, 08:47:06 PM »
Why, you no longer believe the next things I would say would be libelous and nasty?

I'm offended!

I'm Rusty... Nice to meet you, Offended.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2008, 08:47:21 PM by cleveland »
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