Author Topic: The Orthodox Church of Tomorrow  (Read 40184 times)

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Offline Elisha

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Re: The Orthodox Church of Tomorrow
« Reply #45 on: September 29, 2008, 02:43:52 PM »

Offline Fr. George

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Re: The Orthodox Church of Tomorrow
« Reply #46 on: September 29, 2008, 04:20:02 PM »
BTW, "Essay and Priest Deleted"

http://members5.boardhost.com/STANDREWHOUSE/msg/1222695816.html

Is there any evidence of a causal relationship (i.e. because he wrote the essay he was removed), or is it mere speculation?
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: The Orthodox Church of Tomorrow
« Reply #47 on: September 29, 2008, 04:29:55 PM »
... Priest Deleted"
Hmmm... :-\  Sounds like the work of the Cybermen (see Doctor Who:  "Rise of the Cybermen" and "The Age of Steel").
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Offline Elisha

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Re: The Orthodox Church of Tomorrow
« Reply #48 on: September 29, 2008, 05:16:32 PM »
BTW, "Essay and Priest Deleted"

http://members5.boardhost.com/STANDREWHOUSE/msg/1222695816.html

Is there any evidence of a causal relationship (i.e. because he wrote the essay he was removed), or is it mere speculation?

No clue - just reporting what I found elsewhere.

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Re: The Orthodox Church of Tomorrow
« Reply #49 on: September 29, 2008, 05:20:28 PM »
... Priest Deleted"
Hmmm... :-\  Sounds like the work of the Cybermen (see Doctor Who:  "Rise of the Cybermen" and "The Age of Steel").

If the Greek metropolia are the Cybermen, who are the Daleks? ;)
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: The Orthodox Church of Tomorrow
« Reply #50 on: September 29, 2008, 11:15:40 PM »
... Priest Deleted"
Hmmm... :-\  Sounds like the work of the Cybermen (see Doctor Who:  "Rise of the Cybermen" and "The Age of Steel").

If the Greek metropolia are the Cybermen, who are the Daleks? ;)
Don't know.  I just like to think there isn't a priest bad enough that we'd actually want to EXTERMINATE him.  (Sorry, bad joke that only a Doctor Who geek could understand. :-[)

Okay, time for us to put all this silliness aside and get back to discussing the OP. :P
« Last Edit: September 29, 2008, 11:25:47 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline Philothei

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Re: The Orthodox Church of Tomorrow
« Reply #51 on: October 06, 2008, 05:54:52 PM »
What is there to "discuss"? Some random opinion of a priest who judges the Church's progress by the means of sociology?

For one thing he accuses his ligurgic's prof of not be "God centered" and then goes on to say that sociology "disproves" that the GO church will survive... Contradictions on his thoughts run ramprant... phew...

IMO nothing worth while to discuss.... Just another confussed priest who was propably prematurely ....ordained. If he thinks that abuses that are taken place are NOT trials from the devil... then how is he going to deal with his ministry? He will tell his parishioners that they are not worthy "perfect" chiristians and thus cannot be taking communion or other insteresting kerygma that has nothing to do withatso ever with Christ..... and his Church???
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Offline serb1389

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Re: The Orthodox Church of Tomorrow
« Reply #52 on: October 07, 2008, 07:42:56 AM »
I have heard from a source who knows the priest, and they told me that he is actually on loan to the GOA from the OCA, and he was speaking about the church in reaction to all of the OCA issues that are going on. 

I think this is an important light to shed on the issue.  Gives us a different perspective as to where he's coming from. 

Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: The Orthodox Church of Tomorrow
« Reply #53 on: October 07, 2008, 08:40:31 AM »
What is there to "discuss"? Some random opinion of a priest who judges the Church's progress by the means of sociology?

For one thing he accuses his ligurgic's prof of not be "God centered" and then goes on to say that sociology "disproves" that the GO church will survive... Contradictions on his thoughts run ramprant... phew...

IMO nothing worth while to discuss.... Just another confussed priest who was propably prematurely ....ordained. If he thinks that abuses that are taken place are NOT trials from the devil... then how is he going to deal with his ministry? He will tell his parishioners that they are not worthy "perfect" chiristians and thus cannot be taking communion or other insteresting kerygma that has nothing to do withatso ever with Christ..... and his Church???

I appreciate your comments.

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Offline OrthodoxPilgrim

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Re: The Orthodox Church of Tomorrow
« Reply #54 on: October 07, 2008, 11:08:05 AM »
Sorry if I sound rude, but I have read this thread and aside from questioning its authenticity and its source, there hasn't been a serious discussion on the nature of the ideas set in this article. And I wonder why?. What did this person state that was so wrong (besides stepping on the toes of a few Greek hierarchs)?

As a transitioning convert into Orthodoxy, I find his article quite refreshing. I am not a big proponent of revolutionary change myself, but I do believe the Orthodox Church of the future will indeed change from the cultural club that it occassionally been depicted as to a more universal body. We see that happening in the United States. I am slowly seeing it happening in a few churches in Canada as well. And logically, most churches that only cater to their own people may possibly experience some form of decrease in its membership down the line due to its staunch unwillingness to deeply indulge in the meltiing pot cultural milleau of contemporary America. This should be of serious concern to any Orthodox Christian who takes his/her faith seriously.

Also, another point that I find that is worthy of discussion and dialogue (which I myself raised but was found fruitless and am hoping that it may get an audience here) is found in Fr. Peck's article as he stated:

Quote
Orthodox Biblical Studies. Orthodox Biblical scholarship will flourish, and will actually advance Biblical Studies, rather than tag along for the latest trends, staying a minimum safe distance back in case the latest theory tanks unexpectedly. Septuagint studies are already on the rise and Orthodox scholars will usurp the lead in this arena, establishing a powerful and lasting influence in Biblical Studies for decades to come. Orthodox higher education -- specifically in Biblical Studies in the Orthodox tradition -- will finally have a place at the doctoral level in the Western hemisphere, and it will become a thriving academic entity. The whole Church will feed on the gleanings of this new scholarship and Scriptural knowledge, preaching, and Biblical morality will invigorate the Church for generations.

What is wrong with this? I frankly see nothing but positive things coming out of Orthodoxy in this regard, but yet no one is enthusiastic enough about this. As someone who is a staunch academic and finds the intellectual pursuit of faith very exciting, I find Orthodox scholarship on fields such as Second Temple Judaism, Dead Sea Scrolls, Intertestemental literature to be either non-existant or on life support. For example, it is hard to find scholarly Orthodox education in the city of Toronto among its major universities (considering that there is no active Orthodox seminary within the University of Toronto), while one is not in hardship to find the best of the best in Catholic and Anglican scholarly education. Something is surely wrong here...either most of the Priests and hierarchs get their M.Div or Counselling degree and then, get a church to look after and never see the gates of a college ever again. Or the scholarly and educated Orthodox communities aren't doing enough to get their men and women out in the public to interact with. Yes, I am quite aware of Jaroslav Pelikan's works but Orthodoxy needs to do more than that....In this dismal condition, I find Fr. John Peck's words to be quite refreshing in that many former Evangelicals who place a lot of stake in the intellectual understanding of faith may/will indeed contribute to Orthodox scholarship in the many decades to come and provide the Orthodox Church, alongside its aged, timeless and priceless spirituality which remains unmatched, with a new, invigorated and intellectual scholarly life within the Church which will only complement the spiritual life of the Church.

For me, ultimately it is these two concerns: Cultural bigotry and lack of a strong intellectual life  (which I do believe causes a serious and disturbing case of intellectual insularity), that trouble me the most within Orthodoxy. Would anyone here, be willing to address these two issues (or atleast pick one) and try to come up with a serious discussion on this instead of disreputing the source of or the person who has written the article?

Thanks.

In Christ,

+


« Last Edit: October 07, 2008, 11:11:38 AM by OrthodoxPilgrim »

Offline Rosehip

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Re: The Orthodox Church of Tomorrow
« Reply #55 on: October 07, 2008, 12:24:11 PM »
OrthodoxPilgrim, I am the farthest thing from  an academic, but I believe you raise some very good points here. Your thoughts on the article are very similar to my own. Why can't we seek after some more depth, some improvement, some freshness in theological studies- I think this would be a great opportunity to witness to many  around us.  I am very often discourged by the spirit of anti-intellectualism regarding the Church, and yet so many people in the Church place an enormous emphasis on getting a good secular education. Why the discrepancy?  ??? I've asked questions about spiritual matters/ Biblical passages, and have often received no answers at all and at other  times been told to "stop reading/ stop thinking".  ::) And yet, so often when I am with groups of Orthodox, all I hear about is whether they got their PhDs from Harvard, Yale, or Princeton...seems to me these folks weren't told to "stop reading/stop thinking"! Or am I missing something?
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Offline OrthodoxPilgrim

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Re: The Orthodox Church of Tomorrow
« Reply #56 on: October 07, 2008, 12:58:12 PM »
Quote
I am very often discourged by the spirit of anti-intellectualism regarding the Church, and yet so many people in the Church place an enormous emphasis on getting a good secular education.

I hope some Orthodox priests are listening in on this....because sooner or later, this may indeed become a very popular sentiment within American Orthodoxy, if this is not taken care of. Americans, and most North Americans, who are quite the questioning lot, will find the rabid anti-intellectualism whcih is sadly present in many Orthodox churches to be a problem.....just give it some time.


Quote
Why the discrepancy?  ??? I've asked questions about spiritual matters/ Biblical passages, and have often received no answers at all and at other  times been told to "stop reading/ stop thinking".  ::) And yet, so often when I am with groups of Orthodox, all I hear about is whether they got their PhDs from Harvard, Yale, or Princeton...seems to me these folks weren't told to "stop reading/stop thinking"! Or am I missing something?

I am going to make an observation here, which I am sure I am going to be attacked for in some way or fashion, but I feel this needs to be said. This increasing reliance on apophatic theology, which relies solely or primarily on a more mystical (and might I say emotional) communion with the Divine within Orthodoxy does have a very disturbing similarity to another movement within Protestant Christianity - Pentecostalism. Pentecostalism, also relies heavily on a more mystical, emotional relationship with God and is rabidly anti-intellectual, in its overall character and feel. Try speaking to a Pentecostal by bringing about references from Hebrew and Koine Greek lexicons and intertestemental literature in trying to show them their doctrinal errors, their reply is typically one that is very unsympathetic to an intellectual pursuit of Truth. This is the same sentiment I get within Orthodoxy as well (or to be more precise, some quarters of Orthodoxy)......sad, but true.

Also, those Ph.D's you mention....were they in the fields of Early Christian History or Historical/Dogmatic Theology or NT/OT studies or Second Temple Judaism or anything pertaining to Christianity or the Church ?....I mean, a Ph.D can be obtained in anything these days...perhaps, they are encouraged by their religious leaders to think in the various secular fields that they belong to, but when it comes to that of the religious, all thinking hats must be taken off.  :-[

+
« Last Edit: October 07, 2008, 12:59:37 PM by OrthodoxPilgrim »

Offline Philothei

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Re: The Orthodox Church of Tomorrow
« Reply #57 on: October 07, 2008, 01:06:59 PM »
Quote
Sorry if I sound rude, but I have read this thread and aside from questioning its authenticity and its source, there hasn't been a serious discussion on the nature of the ideas set in this article. And I wonder why?. What did this person state that was so wrong (besides stepping on the toes of a few Greek hierarchs)?

it goes deeper than toes.... it is about a priest "knowing better" than his hierarchy ...if he truly cared he would have gone to them instead of slandering the Church he was under. His letter hardly solves as he is pretty inconsistant as to what he says...

There is no "decline" of the GOA. If he believes there is he could have brought forth proof but ....that is too much work instead he just "claims" to know... and that should be enough to steer contraversy and make an impression against the GOA...

Second it is about not fully comprehending what Orthodoxy is all about and taking the faith out of context.
Quote
As a transitioning convert into Orthodoxy, I find his article quite refreshing. I am not a big proponent of revolutionary change myself, but I do believe the Orthodox Church of the future will indeed change from the cultural club that it occassionally been depicted as to a more universal body. We see that happening in the United States. I am slowly seeing it happening in a few churches in Canada as well. And logically, most churches that only cater to their own people may possibly experience some form of decrease in its membership down the line due to its staunch unwillingness to deeply indulge in the meltiing pot cultural milleau of contemporary America. This should be of serious concern to any Orthodox Christian who takes his/her faith seriously.


Culture in America is a tapestry of different colors... let's see when the Russians converted to Orthodoxy did they accept also the byzantine culture yes for the longest time they did but it did not last long as they had ONE culture and that sipped through the byzantine that ultimately became a 'melting pot" for both cultures... what we have today of russian orthodox experience and church. What culture are we talking about in America??? Spanish, native american, anglosaxon?? you decide... I do not see it any ONE culture in America since I have been here.. Kicking out the 'clubs" maybe a solution to what? Fr. Peck is lost in space and he is too premature to think that it is the cultural problem that does not enable "converts" to enter the Church... In his frustration about his phenomenological "decline" he attributes all evils to that... How sad the immigrant church that nurtured and brought orthodoxy here in the new land to be faced with eviction.... of its own members... The child church saying to its mother.. go away you are old and ugly and I do not need you anymore. Trully a good example for the EO church in proclaiming its message of Christ as "more" christian and loving a true gem.. .to treasure for the future generation... Where is the humility of Christ here? Where is the love? Sorry but I only see retribution... in Fr. Peck's words...


Quote
pursuit of faith very exciting, I find Orthodox scholarship on fields such as Second Temple Judaism, Dead Sea Scrolls, Intertestemental literature to be either non-existant or on life support. For example, it is hard to find scholarly Orthodox education in the city of Toronto among its major universities (considering that there is no active Orthodox seminary within the University of Toronto), while one is not in hardship to find the best of the best in Catholic and Anglican scholarly education. Something is surely wrong here...either most of the Priests and hierarchs get their M.Div or Counselling degree and then, get a church to look after and never see the gates of a college ever again. Or the scholarly and educated Orthodox communities aren't doing enough to get their men and women out in the public to interact with. Yes, I am quite aware of Jaroslav Pelikan's works but Orthodoxy needs to do more than that....In this dismal condition, I find Fr. John Peck's words to be quite refreshing in that many former Evangelicals who place a lot of stake in the intellectual understanding of faith may/will indeed contribute to Orthodox scholarship in the many decades to come and provide the Orthodox Church, alongside its aged, timeless and priceless spirituality which remains unmatched, with a new, invigorated and intellectual scholarly life within the Church which will only complement the spiritual life of the Church.


Where is the scholarship? Whereever you are willing to look... Are you sure that most priests do not have a second masters or a PhD. ? At least half I would dare say of the GOA priests own another or a doctorate degree. If you live inToronto then boston would be your place to look. Plenty of professors in major Academic institutions are teaching and witnessing there... Just a quick mention that our Arch Demetrios is a harvard graduate of Ancient Christian origins and was teaching that in Harvard as well as at Holy Cross i am proud to be his student of years past... :) While in Harvard two of very prominent Harvant proffessors (a couple) converted to Orthodoxy. In their testimony they refered to Metropolitan (then) Demetrios for their conversion. They are both in the Ancient Judaism scholars. Just because we do not know people or the GOA does not "advertize' it that does not mean we do not have people either hierarchy, clergy or lay who are involved with scholarship .... There goes the generalization again .... wow...
Anyhow all the patristics as writings are not "enough' proof to you or anyone that the EO church is scholarly then nothing else will do.... Modern scholarship also has nothing to do with belief and faith... and I think the EO church has plenty to offer through its spirituality that it does not need to be 'competing ' with any other secularly minded religious expression....or it will be giving in to scholasticism of the west and we know very well where that would lead our church......
Quote
For me, ultimately it is these two concerns: Cultural bigotry and lack of a strong intellectual life  (which I do believe causes a serious and disturbing case of intellectual insularity), that trouble me the most within Orthodoxy. Would anyone here, be willing to address these two issues (or atleast pick one) and try to come up with a serious discussion on this instead of disreputing the source of or the person who has written the article

let so be it then... if "bigotry" in your 'unsubstantiated" standards and experience is your ONLY concern then I feel that Orthdooxy or any other faith will nto do then...As my guess will be that if you enter any parish in this land....guess what bigotry will be there one way or another... because guess what people are not perfect... and they are weak...How is this GOA problem? has GOA in its official site anything you think it teaches such bigotry? no... Then you are battling with people's weakensses and we are all guilty of not only GOA parishes but all... parishes.

The church is not a "school of thought" or a philosophical or historical informal schooling battle ground... it is faith, spritual knowledge personal growth and devotion... "intellectual life" is an academic term and belongs to the academic world.... not a church expression.

The issues Fr. peck brings forth are not worth the time of the day as they are just examples of immaturity and shallow thinking. The reason why it makes it relevant is to know why would a priest would be moved to write something like that to his parishioners ... hoping that his parishioners will do what? Anger them? make them close the doors of the church to the craddle orhtodox in punishment??? one is left but to wonder ....
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Offline Heracleides

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Re: The Orthodox Church of Tomorrow
« Reply #58 on: October 07, 2008, 01:12:53 PM »
Quote
I am very often discourged by the spirit of anti-intellectualism regarding the Church, and yet so many people in the Church place an enormous emphasis on getting a good secular education.

I hope some Orthodox priests are listening in on this....because sooner or later, this may indeed become a very popular sentiment within American Orthodoxy, if this is not taken care of. Americans, and most North Americans, who are quite the questioning lot, will find the rabid anti-intellectualism whcih is sadly present in many Orthodox churches to be a problem.....just give it some time.


Quote
Why the discrepancy?  ??? I've asked questions about spiritual matters/ Biblical passages, and have often received no answers at all and at other  times been told to "stop reading/ stop thinking".  ::) And yet, so often when I am with groups of Orthodox, all I hear about is whether they got their PhDs from Harvard, Yale, or Princeton...seems to me these folks weren't told to "stop reading/stop thinking"! Or am I missing something?

I am going to make an observation here, which I am sure I am going to be attacked for in some way or fashion, but I feel this needs to be said. This increasing reliance on apophatic theology, which relies solely or primarily on a more mystical (and might I say emotional) communion with the Divine within Orthodoxy does have a very disturbing similarity to another movement within Protestant Christianity - Pentecostalism. Pentecostalism, also relies heavily on a more mystical, emotional relationship with God and is rabidly anti-intellectual, in its overall character and feel. Try speaking to a Pentecostal by bringing about references from Hebrew and Koine Greek lexicons and intertestemental literature in trying to show them their doctrinal errors, their reply is typically one that is very unsympathetic to an intellectual pursuit of Truth. This is the same sentiment I get within Orthodoxy as well (or to be more precise, some quarters of Orthodoxy)......sad, but true.

Also, those Ph.D's you mention....were they in the fields of Early Christian History or Historical/Dogmatic Theology or NT/OT studies or Second Temple Judaism or anything pertaining to Christianity or the Church ?....I mean, a Ph.D can be obtained in anything these days...perhaps, they are encouraged by their religious leaders to think in the various secular fields that they belong to, but when it comes to that of the religious, all thinking hats must be taken off.  :-[

+

Not to be contrarian, but it sounds to me as if you might be advocating an Orthodox version of Latin Scholasticism?  Is this true?  If so, then God preserve us from such a 'spiritually desolate' (I am being polite) movement.
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Offline Philothei

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Re: The Orthodox Church of Tomorrow
« Reply #59 on: October 07, 2008, 01:16:56 PM »
 
Quote
hope some Orthodox priests are listening in on this....because sooner or later, this may indeed become a very popular sentiment within American Orthodoxy, if this is not taken care of. Americans, and most North Americans, who are quite the questioning lot, will find the rabid anti-intellectualism whcih is sadly present in many Orthodox churches to be a problem.....just give it some time.




again generalization upon generalizations and accusing a whole church of not doing their homework... it would be helpful to bring forth some evidence that testifies to that... i did with Boston that is the largest Ivy league city in the US ..and truly the EO presence is so prominent there from all kinds of scholarly activity. just because people do not see that that does not mean necessarily that it is not... sorry.
Actually I have been in Christian forums quite frequently and my experience has been that we as Orthodox are shiny examples of explaining and deepening conversations in faith as our background esp those who are native greek, able to translate the hellenistic Greek of the bible.... I do not see how our theologians luck any scholarly capability compaired to those of other faiths.... The inability of past generations to communicate the faith orally due to the lack of the english language might have led to the belief that ethnic churches are somehow 'suppresng" intellectual questioning but nowadays it is hardly the case.
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Offline OrthodoxPilgrim

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Re: The Orthodox Church of Tomorrow
« Reply #60 on: October 07, 2008, 01:41:50 PM »
Finally, a discussion!! (yaaaay!!)



Quote
it goes deeper than toes.... it is about a priest "knowing better" than his hierarchy ...if he truly cared he would have gone to them instead of slandering the Church he was under.

Perhaps my wording didn't stress this enough. I will put a bit more emphasis on this a little bit more now: I mentioned that aside from stepping on the toes of a hew Greek hierarchs, what did he do wrong? Meaning, I have, albeit quite impassionately but nonetheless, affirmed that he did indeed commit a wrongdoing in stepping on the proverbial toes (thereby, disrespecting) of his own hierarchs, instead of respecting authority and going to them first instead of spewing things out. Just wanted to get that point across....


Quote

Culture in America is a tapestry of different colors... let's see when the Russians converted to Orthodoxy did they accept also the byzantine culture yes for the longest time they did but it did not last long as they had ONE culture and that sipped through the byzantine that ultimately became a 'melting pot" for both cultures... what we have today of russian orthodox experience and church. What culture are we talking about in America??? Spanish, native american, anglosaxon?? you decide... I do not see it any ONE culture in America since I have been here..

Actually, technically speaking, America is the melting pot, and Canada is the mosaic wherein Every culture has its own identity and is not forced to accomodate to some pan-Canadian culture of sorts. Since America is a melting-pot, the staunch culturalism in some Orthodox circles may turn off individuals who are looking into Orthodoxy, that is all I am saying. This may not be as strong of a road block within Canada since its "mosaic" type of culture enables people to be better accomodated to different cultures than Americans.

 
Quote
Kicking out the 'clubs" maybe a solution to what? Fr. Peck is lost in space and he is too premature to think that it is the cultural problem that does not enable "converts" to enter the Church... In his frustration about his phenomenological "decline" he attributes all evils to that... How sad the immigrant church that nurtured and brought orthodoxy here in the new land to be faced with eviction.... of its own members... The child church saying to its mother.. go away you are old and ugly and I do not need you anymore. Trully a good example for the EO church in proclaiming its message of Christ as "more" christian and loving a true gem.. .to treasure for the future generation... Where is the humility of Christ here? Where is the love? Sorry but I only see retribution... in Fr. Peck's words...

As an Indian who is proud of his Indian cultural heritage and is quite happy in seeing it in the religious life, let me say this one thing: I do not belong to Fe. Peck's opinion that the solution to the problem of cultural bigotry in the church is to complete eradicate the cultures that brought about Orthodoxy into America. I believe the Orthodox Church can indeed balance both the Universal calling given to it by her Lord and the preservation of its local cultures. I bleieve both can indeed live in harmony...however, my criticism is laid on the extreme focus of certain Orthodox quarters on the preservation of its local cultures and not enough on the universal aspect of the Church whatsoever. This is my problem....




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Where is the scholarship? Whereever you are willing to look... Are you sure that most priests do not have a second masters or a PhD. ? At least half I would dare say of the GOA priests own another or a doctorate degree. If you live inToronto then boston would be your place to look. Plenty of professors in major Academic institutions are teaching and witnessing there... Just a quick mention that our Arch Demetrios is a harvard graduate of Ancient Christian origins and was teaching that in Harvard as well as at Holy Cross i am proud to be his student of years past... :) While in Harvard two of very prominent Harvant proffessors (a couple) converted to Orthodoxy. In their testimony they refered to Metropolitan (then) Demetrios for their conversion. They are both in the Ancient Judaism scholars. Just because we do not know people or the GOA does not "advertize' it that does not mean we do not have people either hierarchy, clergy or lay who are involved with scholarship .... There goes the generalization again .... wow...

I assure you, that this isn't a generalization but a serious problem within Orthodoxy. It may not be the problem within your quarter of the GOA (my criticism is not towards the GOA but the entirety of Orthodoxy, both Oriental and Eastern...when looked at its entirety, it is not doing as good of a job as it ought to be)

Also, I am quite happy to see that you are providing me with names and people who do not fit the above criticism. I am humbled and happy by their presence. If you can provide me with more information with them, I would greatly appreciate it.

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Anyhow all the patristics as writings are not "enough' proof to you or anyone that the EO church is scholarly then nothing else will do.... Modern scholarship also has nothing to do with belief and faith... and I think the EO church has plenty to offer through its spirituality that it does not need to be 'competing ' with any other secularly minded religious expression....or it will be giving in to scholasticism of the west and we know very well where that would lead our church......

This is the crux of the problem righ here. Many Orthodox feel that there is no need to pursue serious scholarly studies since the Fathers "did it all". Might I remind you that the Orthodox Church, being the Church of the Apostles and the Fathers, boasts an immense patristic tradition, founded by Fathers who were highly educated in the fields of Theology, Sciences and Philosophy. It is becuase of the very same Patristic tradition you boast about that I am concerned about the life of the Church. Unlike Latin Scolasticism, the scholarly pursuits of the Fathers did indeed involve using the best of the best of secular knowledge that was made accessible to them at the time, but they used it for the glory of Christ and his Church...to succumb and defeat all heresies and put it under the trampling foot of the resurrected Christ. This is my wish....that Orthodoxy rediscover the pursuit of scholasticism - ONLY within the sphere and greater context of glorifying Christ and his Church....Latin scholasticism, while pursuing a scholastic pursuit of Christ, was completely devoid of God and his guidance, which eventually resulted in the falling, confusion and destruction of the ancient scholastic pursuit of Truth within Scripture and Tradition, using the very reason and intellect our God has bestowed upon us.

Quote
let so be it then... if "bigotry" in your 'unsubstantiated" standards and experience is your ONLY concern then I feel that Orthdooxy or any other faith will nto do then...As my guess will be that if you enter any parish in this land....guess what bigotry will be there one way or another... because guess what people are not perfect... and they are weak...How is this GOA problem? has GOA in its official site anything you think it teaches such bigotry? no... Then you are battling with people's weakensses and we are all guilty of not only GOA parishes but all... parishes.

hehe...a concern is different from a roadblock to faith, my brother. My roadblocks to faith were entirely doctrinal (and most of them have been dealt with). These are legitimate concerns....as an Anglican friend of mine once said recently when he learnt about my dissatisfaction with Anglicanism and a slow progression into Orthodxy: "Whereever you go in life, you must learn to commit to one set of problems...it depends on which set of problems you wish to be committed to."....The scriptures itself show that bigotry and problems existed from the very beginning of Christ's Church....my reason for outlining the problems within Orthodoxy is to not malign it and to depict these challenges as a sort of "road blocK" to my journey into Orthodoxy. Rather, they are challenges, that must and will be met by the new generation of ORthodox faithful, both laymen and clergy. I was simply trying to get a discussion going on some of Orthodoxy's challenges...that is all.


Quote
The church is not a "school of thought" or a philosophical or historical informal schooling battle ground... it is faith, spritual knowledge personal growth and devotion... "intellectual life" is an academic term and belongs to the academic world.... not a church expression.

Sure...I never said it was a "school of though". But our spiritual fathers must be equipped to fight the battles that lay before us in the future. As Orthodoxy expands into Protestant America, Protestant theologians who see their classes slightly diminishing will take on the cause of fighting against Orthodoxy (as it has already started). I only wish for Orthodoxy to do well in this regard...whcih is why we must be well equipped with the knowledge, available to us today and stop relying too heavily on apophaic theology and try to keep the mystical life of the Church in balance with a sober and vibrant Christ and Church centred, intellectuality.

Another Prodigal Son

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Offline Philothei

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Re: The Orthodox Church of Tomorrow
« Reply #61 on: October 07, 2008, 01:43:46 PM »
Quote
I am going to make an observation here, which I am sure I am going to be attacked for in some way or fashion, but I feel this needs to be said. This increasing reliance on apophatic theology, which relies solely or primarily on a more mystical (and might I say emotional) communion with the Divine within Orthodoxy does have a very disturbing similarity to another movement within Protestant Christianity - Pentecostalism. Pentecostalism, also relies heavily on a more mystical, emotional relationship with God and is rabidly anti-intellectual, in its overall character and feel. Try speaking to a Pentecostal by bringing about references from Hebrew and Koine Greek lexicons and intertestemental literature in trying to show them their doctrinal errors, their reply is typically one that is very unsympathetic to an intellectual pursuit of Truth. This is the same sentiment I get within Orthodoxy as well (or to be more precise, some quarters of Orthodoxy)......sad, but true.


There is no "increase"  on apophatism. EO was partly based on it due to both depending on the Revelation of God which is Judaism and also the kataphatism of the Platonic idea of God... there is a balance... We cannot go too kataphatic as we narrow God's essence and we cannot be too apophatic as we become agnostics... And there will never be attack on theology although new would like to say that we are all learning here ... It is when people make sweeping generalizations that usually is pretty disturbing to me... What you are saying I understand but it is off topic ... I hear you though as you want a clarification to what is "emotional" and what is mystery... hmmm big converstation for we are in the middle of another topic.

Fr. Peck's article i think does not even goes that far...

I would agree with you on that laity of the old country is not so versed with the Bible. They know theology through the hymns and reading of the Church and through the 'repetition' they recall and can defend ... sometimes more than a knowledgable theologian. Hm... compairing Pentacostals to Orthodox?

Well, they are waaaay different I think.. .Pentacostals have no tradition no formal worshiping trad. we do. They rely on scripture we do not. Mystery is the way that the gifts are "changed" into body and blood of Christ... there is no mystery in Pentacostalism ONLY emotion... and "illusion" that speaking the tongues is a command from God to do...I am trying hard but cannot see how the two can be similar somehow....sorry.

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an intellectual pursuit of Truth.
Where in your bible it talks about that? that we have to be pursuing the intellect? I sense there is a source on the frustration you feel.... what is it? In Orthodoxy we are told to progress in our spiritual life instead. Evagrius the pontikos said" He who prays is a theologian" you think that he was wrong to say that? We use our intellect to communicate information but we are not gnostics we do not believe that gnosis saves... We can 'know' God by our intellect ONLY to a point... then we have to experience Him in prayer.


Quote
Also, those Ph.D's you mention....were they in the fields of Early Christian History or Historical/Dogmatic Theology or NT/OT studies or Second Temple Judaism or anything pertaining to Christianity or the Church ?....I mean, a Ph.D can be obtained in anything these days...perhaps, they are encouraged by their religious leaders to think in the various secular fields that they belong to, but when it comes to that of the religious, all thinking hats must be taken off.  


yes, they were theology dept not history... etc. Do not understand your point  here.. First you say they do not have education then I present to you with evidence since I am grad of a seminary myself and happen to know many who have went on to study Theology...and then you are saying they get off their 'hats" why? no one is asking them to do that... You think that a person cannot discern how sound Orthodox theology relates to their subject of study? Most do know how to do that. IMO you need to understand that your struggles (as expressed here) is with they laity and with the clergy... because you are looking for answers to your questions as you are approching Orthodoxy... and they are valid questions...

still does not justify Fr. Pecks' as he should have already be aware of the answers.
"Love never fails" St. Paul

Offline OrthodoxPilgrim

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Re: The Orthodox Church of Tomorrow
« Reply #62 on: October 07, 2008, 02:14:19 PM »
Quote
Well, they are waaaay different I think.. .Pentacostals have no tradition no formal worshiping trad. we do. They rely on scripture we do not. Mystery is the way that the gifts are "changed" into body and blood of Christ... there is no mystery in Pentacostalism ONLY emotion... and "illusion" that speaking the tongues is a command from God to do...I am trying hard but cannot see how the two can be similar somehow....sorry.

The ONLY similarity I see between (again: I emphasise this, certain quarters of) Orthodoxy and much of Pentecostalism is the complete abandonment of the intellectual pursuit of Truth...which leads me to the next point.

Quote
Where in your bible it talks about that? that we have to be pursuing the intellect? I sense there is a source on the frustration you feel.... what is it? In Orthodoxy we are told to progress in our spiritual life instead. Evagrius the pontikos said" He who prays is a theologian" you think that he was wrong to say that? We use our intellect to communicate information but we are not gnostics we do not believe that gnosis saves... We can 'know' God by our intellect ONLY to a point... then we have to experience Him in prayer.

I agree with you 100%. Our Lord himself REASONED with the Pharisees daily in the Temple as he himself outlines plenty of times in Scripture, especially during his trial. The Lord Jesus Christ himself says, "Thou shall love the Lord your God, with all your Heart, with all your soul, and with all your MIND, and with all your Strength" (Mark 12:30)...this holistic spiritual love of God is what I am trying to stress. You are either creating a false distinction (or are, rather assuming that I am creating a false distinction) between the Love of God through the mind and the Love of God through the Heart, Soul and Strength (since Christ himself alongside his Apostles, reasoned with the Jews and the Pagans to prove the centrality of Christ's authority in human salvation using both scripture and Pagan sources, and early Fathers such as St. Justin Martyr and post-Nicene fathers such as St. John of Damascus, St. Isaac the Syrian, who REASONED from scripture and the available sources of their time to prove the truth of the usage of Icons and the truth of the Christian faith (vs. the Judaic and/or the Islamic faith)) or have incorrectly assumed that I am stressing the need of Latin Scholsticism within Orthodoxy. There are great examples of Church fathers, who THROUGH their spiritual life, used their intellect to glorify God and His Church......OF COURSE, the intellect, on its own, cannot ever understand the length and breadth of God...never did I state such a thing. I am simply stating AGAIN....that the long lost tradition of pursuing the intellectual path towards God (within the context of Spirituality and the Glorifying of Christ and his Church) be rediscovered in several quaraters of the Orthodox Church...

My heart leaps for joy and happiness in reading (and hearing of the prsence of) intellectuals within Orthodoxy....but sadly, I have no access to them, have either heard very few accounts, or have never heard of them at all. And I do agree with you that just becuase I haven't heard them, does not in anyway mean that there is none whatsoever. In time, I hope that Orthodox intellectualism doesn't remain this unheard of and in time, will be given more time in the sun.

Quote
yes, they were theology dept not history... etc. Do not understand your point  here.. First you say they do not have education then I present to you with evidence since I am grad of a seminary myself and happen to know many who have went on to study Theology...and then you are saying they get off their 'hats" why? no one is asking them to do that... You think that a person cannot discern how sound Orthodox theology relates to their subject of study? Most do know how to do that. IMO you need to understand that your struggles (as expressed here) is with they laity and with the clergy... because you are looking for answers to your questions as you are approching Orthodoxy... and they are valid questions...

My reason for posing that question was that, simply put, there are other fields, besides Theology and Philsophy that people can earn tehir dictorate. My question was innocent in its intent, in that, I simply was wondering if their Ph.D's were in a subject of interest in Theology and Church History.....since there is indeed (within some quarters of Orthodoxy) less of a stress on the intellectual pursuit of Truth (as outlined above i.e. not Latin Scholasticism), I was simply wondering if the particular poster (i.e. Rosehip) was aware if their doctorate stuies was in Theology, Church history or any subject that is IMMEDIATELY connected to the life of the Church....and if it was, I was actually wondering if I could get some access into some of it....that was my intent....my intent was NOT to say that other people who study other subhects cannot relate to Orthodoxy (wow.....that was indeed an interesting take on my words) but rather, to simply dig more and try to connect with Orthodox intellectuals.....nothing more, nothing less.

I do humbly apologize if I have offended anyone. Please take note, that I did not mean to offend anyone it in anyway whatsoever. I see the Orthodox Church (both Oriental and Orthodox) as true gems and would hate to see it being mistreated....that is why, I raised certain questions....so, for the record, if a discussion needs to take place, please try not to be aggressive or frustrated with my questions (as my questions are only intending to edify and not to destroy).

In Christ

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« Last Edit: October 07, 2008, 02:36:48 PM by OrthodoxPilgrim »

Offline OrthodoxPilgrim

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Re: The Orthodox Church of Tomorrow
« Reply #63 on: October 07, 2008, 03:46:04 PM »
Quote
that we have to be pursuing the intellect? I sense there is a source on the frustration you feel.... what is it?

I didn't say that we should be pursuing intellect.....I said that we should be pursuing God, using our intellect. We ought to be using the minds and brains that our Lord has given us to pursue Truth....Just to clarify, pursuit is different from attainment. I can pursue something..but that does not directly or indirectly mean that I will attain what I am pursuing. God wants us to question, think, ponder upon and ask questions....if he didn't want us to think and use our intellect, he simply would have made us as brain-dead automatons who are simply following orders. He has given us the faculty of thought to use it to glorify him....My frustration stems from the fact that (some quarters of) Orthodoxy isn't doing what it used to do before (again: this may not be the case in the GOA, but it is certainly the case when looking at the immense size of Global Orthodoxy)....While I see this as deeply frustrating, I take this as a challenge as well (since clergymen within Orthodox circles who notice the same problem as I do have only applauded my efforts in trying to contribute to its change...so I take that as a step in the right direction).
« Last Edit: October 07, 2008, 03:47:30 PM by OrthodoxPilgrim »

Offline Amdetsion

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Re: The Orthodox Church of Tomorrow
« Reply #64 on: October 07, 2008, 03:55:24 PM »
OrthodoxPilgrim, I am the farthest thing from  an academic, but I believe you raise some very good points here. Your thoughts on the article are very similar to my own. Why can't we seek after some more depth, some improvement, some freshness in theological studies- I think this would be a great opportunity to witness to many  around us.  I am very often discourged by the spirit of anti-intellectualism regarding the Church, and yet so many people in the Church place an enormous emphasis on getting a good secular education. Why the discrepancy?  ??? I've asked questions about spiritual matters/ Biblical passages, and have often received no answers at all and at other  times been told to "stop reading/ stop thinking".  ::) And yet, so often when I am with groups of Orthodox, all I hear about is whether they got their PhDs from Harvard, Yale, or Princeton...seems to me these folks weren't told to "stop reading/stop thinking"! Or am I missing something?

Well said!
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Offline Veniamin

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Re: The Orthodox Church of Tomorrow
« Reply #65 on: October 07, 2008, 06:51:00 PM »
Quote
hope some Orthodox priests are listening in on this....because sooner or later, this may indeed become a very popular sentiment within American Orthodoxy, if this is not taken care of. Americans, and most North Americans, who are quite the questioning lot, will find the rabid anti-intellectualism whcih is sadly present in many Orthodox churches to be a problem.....just give it some time.




again generalization upon generalizations and accusing a whole church of not doing their homework... it would be helpful to bring forth some evidence that testifies to that... i did with Boston that is the largest Ivy league city in the US ..and truly the EO presence is so prominent there from all kinds of scholarly activity. just because people do not see that that does not mean necessarily that it is not... sorry.
Actually I have been in Christian forums quite frequently and my experience has been that we as Orthodox are shiny examples of explaining and deepening conversations in faith as our background esp those who are native greek, able to translate the hellenistic Greek of the bible.... I do not see how our theologians luck any scholarly capability compaired to those of other faiths.... The inability of past generations to communicate the faith orally due to the lack of the english language might have led to the belief that ethnic churches are somehow 'suppresng" intellectual questioning but nowadays it is hardly the case.


There's one glaring problem with your reference to how Orthodox on internet fora act as being some sort of reflection of how we are as a whole.  Quite simply, you're ignoring the self-selection factor.  The people who participate in an internet forum are highly likely to be people who are the most interested in such a subject and thus, the most likely to be knowledgeable about it (with the rest being those wanting to learn more and seeking out those who are more knowledgeable).  It's not a representative sample of Orthodox faithful as a whole, where you will have a much more pronounced mix of those who are knowledgeable, those who are less so, and those who have no idea what's going on.  If you want to take issue with someone making "generalization upon generalizations," you should be very careful to make sure that you don't turn around and do the same thing in rebuttal.
Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl. ~Frederick the Great

Offline SolEX01

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Re: The Orthodox Church of Tomorrow
« Reply #66 on: October 11, 2008, 11:02:10 PM »
Terry Mattingly publishes article about the fallout from Fr. John Peck's sermon: The Orthodox Church of Tomorrow.  Key excerpts as follows (quoting Fr. Peck): 

Quote
"The notion that traditionally Orthodox ethnic groups (the group of 'our people' we hear so much about from our primates and hierarchs) are going to populate the ranks of the clergy, and therefore, the Church in the future is, frankly, a pipe dream," he wrote. The reality is that many American clergy and laity -- some converts, but many ethnic leaders as well -- refuse to "accept the Church as a club of any kind, or closed circle kaffeeklatsch. No old world embassies will be tolerated for much longer.

Offline SolEX01

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Re: The Orthodox Church of Tomorrow
« Reply #67 on: October 26, 2008, 06:32:48 PM »
Is it unusual for a GOA Church to be listed without any times for services even though the Church is now served by Metropolis Clergy?

GOA listing for Prescott Orthodox Church

Offline John of the North

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Re: The Orthodox Church of Tomorrow
« Reply #68 on: October 26, 2008, 06:45:39 PM »
Is it unusual for a GOA Church to be listed without any times for services even though the Church is now served by Metropolis Clergy?

GOA listing for Prescott Orthodox Church

Not if the same listing links to the website with the schedule...
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Offline SolEX01

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Re: The Orthodox Church of Tomorrow
« Reply #69 on: October 26, 2008, 07:09:20 PM »
Not if the same listing links to the website with the schedule...

Good point even though the implicit assumption is that the Church's website is maintained and there are clergy available to serve Liturgy.  Thanks for the clarification.   :)

Offline GiC

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Re: The Orthodox Church of Tomorrow
« Reply #70 on: October 26, 2008, 07:31:07 PM »
Is it unusual for a GOA Church to be listed without any times for services even though the Church is now served by Metropolis Clergy?

GOA listing for Prescott Orthodox Church

They probably just dont want to go to the trouble of submitting times whenever things change to update the archdiocese website, but they do provide a link to their website which has their schedule: http://www.prescottorthodox.org/schedule.html

Offline SolEX01

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Re: The Orthodox Church of Tomorrow
« Reply #71 on: October 26, 2008, 07:52:37 PM »
They probably just dont want to go to the trouble of submitting times whenever things change to update the archdiocese website, but they do provide a link to their website which has their schedule: http://www.prescottorthodox.org/schedule.html

I was reading more into the exclusion of service times (e.g. something happened regarding the Church's status) than warranted.   :-[

Offline AMM

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Re: The Orthodox Church of Tomorrow
« Reply #72 on: October 28, 2008, 12:11:17 PM »
They should shamelessly rip off the Colonel and put up a "We do Orthodoxy right!" sign.

What could be a good exploration of some legitimate topics gets totally lost in the numerous exaggerations, over-generalizations, and some just plain old wishful thinking ("feed on the gleanings"...).  Convert screeds are convert screeds, all just as tiresome to read as the last one.

When somebody invites you to their house, you don't...


« Last Edit: October 28, 2008, 03:52:22 PM by AMM »

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Re: The Orthodox Church of Tomorrow
« Reply #73 on: October 28, 2008, 12:16:12 PM »
^ Huh?   ???

Offline tuesdayschild

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Re: The Orthodox Church of Tomorrow
« Reply #74 on: October 28, 2008, 12:58:30 PM »
Convert screeds are convert screeds, all just as tiresome to read as the last one.

When somebody invites you to their house, you don't defecate on their carpet.

There's nothing quite like being made to feel like a guest in my own house::)

Or did I misunderstand the priest who chrismated me when he said, "Welcome home"?
« Last Edit: October 28, 2008, 02:08:04 PM by PeterTheAleut »

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Re: The Orthodox Church of Tomorrow
« Reply #75 on: October 28, 2008, 03:56:30 PM »
Quote
Or did I misunderstand the priest who chrismated me when he said, "Welcome home"?

That's just an exaggeration, just as a good deal of what's in the "Orthodox Church or Tomorrow" essay is.

Offline tuesdayschild

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Re: The Orthodox Church of Tomorrow
« Reply #76 on: October 28, 2008, 04:20:13 PM »
Quote
Or did I misunderstand the priest who chrismated me when he said, "Welcome home"?

That's just an exaggeration, just as a good deal of what's in the "Orthodox Church or Tomorrow" essay is.

Please clarify, because this reads as though you are saying that the priest who said "Welcome home" was exaggerating.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2008, 04:20:47 PM by tuesdayschild »

Offline AMM

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Re: The Orthodox Church of Tomorrow
« Reply #77 on: October 28, 2008, 04:45:37 PM »
To take myself as an example, - as a person of Northern European extraction and nominal Protestant familial lineage; Byzantine Chalcedonian Orthodoxy in its various cultural and ethnic incarnations is to me as much "home" as Zen Buddhism.  It (Orthodoxy) is my adopted home, but it would be a ridiculous exaggeration to say I had "come home".

Maybe as a convert it is my right to perceive that the whole system would come apart without me, that the people who have been Orthodox for generations are clueless (or worse), or that my being in the church will introduce a new golden age in its life.  I think those would be more ridiculous exaggerations though.  It's convert fantasy world.


Offline tuesdayschild

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Re: The Orthodox Church of Tomorrow
« Reply #78 on: October 28, 2008, 05:03:46 PM »
To take myself as an example, - as a person of Northern European extraction and nominal Protestant familial lineage; Byzantine Chalcedonian Orthodoxy in its various cultural and ethnic incarnations is to me as much "home" as Zen Buddhism.  It (Orthodoxy) is my adopted home, but it would be a ridiculous exaggeration to say I had "come home".

Thank you for clarifying.  I do not believe the priest meant to welcome me home to Russian culture.  Insofar as I come to Orthodoxy, as we all do, by the mysteries, the Church is as much my home (one facet of his intended meaning) as it is that of any other Orthodox.

Offline AMM

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Re: The Orthodox Church of Tomorrow
« Reply #79 on: October 28, 2008, 09:02:46 PM »
Quote
I do not believe the priest meant to welcome me home to Russian culture.

Yet it is now part of your home.

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: The Orthodox Church of Tomorrow
« Reply #80 on: October 28, 2008, 09:35:21 PM »
Yet it is now part of your home.

I think the notion of a "cultureless" Church is a pipe dream. The Church is flesh and blood, not some ethereal, unconnected ideal floating in mid space. Indeed, the article by Fr. Peck quoted in the OP shows his own heterodox cultural baggage, since he quotes the KJV to an Orthodox Christian audience (as pointed out by SolEX01).
Russian culture has been infused with Orthodoxy for a thousand years, Fr. Peck's "KJV Christianity" has not. I'd rather incorporate Russian culture into my Greek-Australian Orthodox Christian home than Fr. Pecks KJV culture.
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Offline tuesdayschild

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Re: The Orthodox Church of Tomorrow
« Reply #81 on: October 28, 2008, 10:31:39 PM »
Quote
I do not believe the priest meant to welcome me home to Russian culture.

Yet it is now part of your home.

If it were as you say, I think I would have been compelled to take a Slavic saint as my patron.  But at least we agree I am at home.  :)

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Re: The Orthodox Church of Tomorrow
« Reply #82 on: October 28, 2008, 10:47:40 PM »
They should shamelessly rip off the Colonel and put up a "We do Orthodoxy right!" sign.

What could be a good exploration of some legitimate topics gets totally lost in the numerous exaggerations, over-generalizations, and some just plain old wishful thinking ("feed on the gleanings"...).  Convert screeds are convert screeds, all just as tiresome to read as the last one.

When somebody invites you to their house, you don't...
tell me I can't sing in Church Slavonic or Ukrainian?

Fixed your quote tags - Cleveland, GM
« Last Edit: October 28, 2008, 11:36:11 PM by cleveland »

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Re: The Orthodox Church of Tomorrow
« Reply #83 on: October 28, 2008, 10:50:30 PM »
Yet it is now part of your home.

I think the notion of a "cultureless" Church is a pipe dream. The Church is flesh and blood, not some ethereal, unconnected ideal floating in mid space. Indeed, the article by Fr. Peck quoted in the OP shows his own heterodox cultural baggage, since he quotes the KJV to an Orthodox Christian audience (as pointed out by SolEX01).
Russian culture has been infused with Orthodoxy for a thousand years, Fr. Peck's "KJV Christianity" has not. I'd rather incorporate Russian culture into my Greek-Australian Orthodox Christian home than Fr. Pecks KJV culture.

Post of the Month nominee!!!!!!

Offline Fr. George

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Re: The Orthodox Church of Tomorrow
« Reply #84 on: October 28, 2008, 11:42:08 PM »
Post of the Month nominee!!!!!!

This has been noted.
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Re: The Orthodox Church of Tomorrow
« Reply #85 on: October 28, 2008, 11:44:33 PM »
Post of the Month nominee!!!!!!

This has been noted.

Thank you Cleveland.  Ozgeorge's post sums up so much in one paragraph.  It is many arguments answered in a skillfully written post.  Thank you OzGeorge for the awesome post.

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Re: The Orthodox Church of Tomorrow
« Reply #86 on: October 28, 2008, 11:50:53 PM »
^ Can I be co-nominated with ozgeorge since he quoted my post as reference?   :)

Offline John of the North

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Re: The Orthodox Church of Tomorrow
« Reply #87 on: October 29, 2008, 01:31:43 AM »
Quote
I do not believe the priest meant to welcome me home to Russian culture.

Yet it is now part of your home.

If it were as you say, I think I would have been compelled to take a Slavic saint as my patron.  But at least we agree I am at home.  :)

All Saints of the Orthodox Church are saints in the Slavic tradition or any other Orthodox tradition. I don't where people get this idea that somehow their tradition defines the Church. Every Sunday we celebrate the Divine Liturgy together on the bones of the martyrs who have walked before us. Ours is a large community....it doesn't matter where you are in the world....we all commune from the same cup, no matter what language it is served in...together with all the saints, the Cherubim, Seraphim, other angels....
“Find the door of your heart, and you will discover it is the door to the kingdom of God.” - St. John Chrysostom

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: The Orthodox Church of Tomorrow
« Reply #88 on: October 29, 2008, 04:59:23 AM »
^ Can I be co-nominated with ozgeorge since he quoted my post as reference?   :)

I will nominate you.
Your post was well written and researched.
If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Offline SolEX01

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Re: The Orthodox Church of Tomorrow
« Reply #89 on: October 29, 2008, 11:22:08 AM »
^ Thanks for the nomination and for including my post.   :)