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Author Topic: Validity of Mother Teresa  (Read 9854 times) Average Rating: 0
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Myrrh23
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« on: September 20, 2008, 05:47:02 PM »

On what basis are you going off topic here slandering Mother Theresa?  I'm interested in why you see her in that light.

Username, unless you know it's slander, it'd be good not to accuse me of slandering. And I said it after reading what Crucifer had written about her in his personal quotes. I see her in that light because of what I've read by people who were active around her and from Indian professionals who themselves haven't seen much of any benefits she might have given in this life. Ever hear of Mother Teresa's millions? I don't understand how so many people can be so ignorant of what she and her sisters really were, but anyways....

My Sister in Law went on many medical trips to Hati when she was younger. She went with various Baptist organizations as a non-medical helper. She still ended up helping a woman give birth to her 9th and 10th children.

Quin, that's what I want to do, but I don't know who to go to if I want to volunteer like that.... Undecided
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« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2008, 05:55:21 PM »

On what basis are you going off topic here slandering Mother Theresa?  I'm interested in why you see her in that light.

Username, unless you know it's slander, it'd be good not to accuse me of slandering. And I said it after reading what Crucifer had written about her in his personal quotes. I see her in that light because of what I've read by people who were active around her and from Indian professionals who themselves haven't seen much of any benefits she might have given in this life. Ever hear of Mother Teresa's millions?
Myrrh, considering the reputation of sanctity Mother Theresa has among people of all religions, it'd be good not to call her a fraud until you can prove that she is.  Evidence from these professionals from whom you've heard damning information would be a good place to start.

Quote
I don't understand how so many people can be so ignorant of what she and her sisters really were, but anyways....
How can we be expected to know what we have not heard nor ever been told?
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« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2008, 09:50:19 PM »

Myrrh, considering the reputation of sanctity Mother Theresa has among people of all religions, it'd be good not to call her a fraud until you can prove that she is.  Evidence from these professionals from whom you've heard damning information would be a good place to start.

I'll stand by the position that she was corrupt, a fraud, a charlatan, and a hypocrite...not to mention a sadist, and no, not a sadist in a good way. While she partied with Haitian dictators, taking their blood money to build up her order, and enjoyed the best medical care in the world she consigned those under her care to poverty and misery...dying in filth and squalor without access to proper medical care.

She was a genuinely evil person, not simply misguided or inconsistent or uncaring or negligent, but evil in the fullest sense of the term. She does not deserve to go down in history as a saint and advocate of peace...she should go down in history with her name listed beside the despots she befriended.

As for a source, I would recommend starting with Christopher Hitchen's well researched and wonderfully written book The Missionary Position: Mother Teresa in Theory and Practice.

As for accusations of slander...you can't slander someone in writing...you can only commit libel against them. And truth is an absolute defence against both slander and libel.
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« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2008, 10:30:13 PM »

I'll stand by the position that she was corrupt, a fraud, a charlatan, and a hypocrite...not to mention a sadist, and no, not a sadist in a good way. While she partied with Haitian dictators, taking their blood money to build up her order, and enjoyed the best medical care in the world she consigned those under her care to poverty and misery...dying in filth and squalor without access to proper medical care.

She was a genuinely evil person, not simply misguided or inconsistent or uncaring or negligent, but evil in the fullest sense of the term. She does not deserve to go down in history as a saint and advocate of peace...she should go down in history with her name listed beside the despots she befriended.

As for a source, I would recommend starting with Christopher Hitchen's well researched and wonderfully written book The Missionary Position: Mother Teresa in Theory and Practice.

As for accusations of slander...you can't slander someone in writing...you can only commit libel against them. And truth is an absolute defence against both slander and libel.
Wink

There are medical personnel who have written that she did not have her nuns learn practical medical knowledge. You have to understand that her donors built hospices for her, not hospitals---hospices are places where people go to die. There is evidence that her nuns put people sick with infectious diseases alongside much healthier people. You can go on YouTube and the internet, PtA--it's all documented. Her having a reputation of sanctity means nothing---it only means she successfully snowed people. PtA, it's all documented. Do you wish sources? I can give sources.
She did actually encourage people to suffer because she had it in her head that suffering brings you closer to Jesus. Haven't you ever wondered why she had all these millions of dollars from donors, and the poor of Calcutta saw next to nothing of it? I am ashamed of her.
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« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2008, 11:04:33 PM »

Myrrh, considering the reputation of sanctity Mother Theresa has among people of all religions, it'd be good not to call her a fraud until you can prove that she is.  Evidence from these professionals from whom you've heard damning information would be a good place to start.

I'll stand by the position that she was corrupt, a fraud, a charlatan, and a hypocrite...not to mention a sadist, and no, not a sadist in a good way. While she partied with Haitian dictators, taking their blood money to build up her order, and enjoyed the best medical care in the world she consigned those under her care to poverty and misery...dying in filth and squalor without access to proper medical care.

She was a genuinely evil person, not simply misguided or inconsistent or uncaring or negligent, but evil in the fullest sense of the term. She does not deserve to go down in history as a saint and advocate of peace...she should go down in history with her name listed beside the despots she befriended.

As for a source, I would recommend starting with Christopher Hitchen's well researched and wonderfully written book The Missionary Position: Mother Teresa in Theory and Practice.

As for accusations of slander...you can't slander someone in writing...you can only commit libel against them. And truth is an absolute defence against both slander and libel.
Nothing but your own opinions and a book with which you agree. Roll Eyes  You got anything more convincing than this?
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« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2008, 11:32:47 PM »

Nothing but your own opinions and a book with which you agree. Roll Eyes  You got anything more convincing than this?

My opinions? Is it merely my opinion that she befrended the Duvaliers? Is it merely my opinion that she took their money which was made on the oppression and slavery of their subjects? Is is merely my opinion that she enjoyed world-class medical care while consigning the poor of Calcutta to her houses of death without proper medical care? Is it merely my opinion that she would separate dying families, not allowing husbands or wives to be at the side of ther dying spouse?

These are facts about this charlatan...and there are many more, but apparently you are unwilling to actually read a book that may not be in line with your preconceived notions. Instead, you jump on the bandwagon of this Mother Teresa cult and excuse all her wrong doing because she claimed to be acting in the name of God.

Granted, there's pleanty of evidence out there that she really didn't take that god stuff seriously, but she at least put on a good enough show to pull the wool over most the faithful's eyes.
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« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2008, 06:55:05 PM »

Nothing but your own opinions and a book with which you agree. Roll Eyes  You got anything more convincing than this?

My opinions? Is it merely my opinion that she befrended the Duvaliers? Is it merely my opinion that she took their money which was made on the oppression and slavery of their subjects?
"Oppression" and "slavery" are often a matter of subjective perception and opinion.  Just exactly how did the Duvaliers oppress and enslave their subjects that receiving money from them would be such a great evil?

Quote
Is is merely my opinion that she enjoyed world-class medical care while consigning the poor of Calcutta to her houses of death without proper medical care? Is it merely my opinion that she would separate dying families, not allowing husbands or wives to be at the side of ther dying spouse?
Can you substantiate these accusations rather than just calling them facts?

Quote
These are facts about this charlatan...and there are many more, but apparently you are unwilling to actually read a book that may not be in line with your preconceived notions.
You call Christopher Hitchens's book "well researched and wonderfully written".  Why should I take this to be true solely on your authority?  Is it possible you see this book as "well researched and wonderfully written" only because it reaffirms your preconceived notions?

Quote
Instead, you jump on the bandwagon of this Mother Teresa cult and excuse all her wrong doing because she claimed to be acting in the name of God.
Really?  Where have I ever really praised Mother Theresa on this forum?  You assume that just because I want substantiation of the accusations you and others have leveled against her that I actually think her a saint?  All I've really ever said in her defense is that many people from all religions praise Mother Theresa as the epitome of sanctity; I have never said that I agree with them, and you might actually find me willing to reexamine her case with an open mind.

Quote
Granted, there's pleanty of evidence out there that she really didn't take that god stuff seriously, but she at least put on a good enough show to pull the wool over most the faithful's eyes.
Again, a claim that you need to substantiate.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2008, 06:59:58 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2008, 07:07:09 PM »

GIC

Quote
Granted, there's pleanty of evidence out there that she really didn't take that god stuff seriously, but she at least put on a good enough show to pull the wool over most the faithful's eyes.

I've seen sensationalized stories on this (about how she wrote a couple times that she doubted God), but not much else. Does Hitchins cover this in his book?
« Last Edit: September 21, 2008, 07:07:22 PM by Asteriktos » Logged

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« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2008, 11:41:10 PM »

"Oppression" and "slavery" are often a matter of subjective perception and opinion.  Just exactly how did the Duvaliers oppress and enslave their subjects that receiving money from them would be such a great evil?

You're kidding, right? Murder, assassination, torture, corruption...sure, these are all great things, heck why not just canonize Jean-Claude Duvalier, while you're at it you can elevate Pol Pot and Nicolae Ceauşescu to sainthood. All I can say is WOW.

Quote
Can you substantiate these accusations rather than just calling them facts?

I gave you a source which is full of research, interviews, etc. But you're unwilling to consider it. Why should I assume you'll better receive any other source I provide?

Quote
You call Christopher Hitchens's book "well researched and wonderfully written".  Why should I take this to be true solely on your authority?  Is it possible you see this book as "well researched and wonderfully written" only because it reaffirms your preconceived notions?

Could be, but seeing how you haven't actually read it, you're hardly in a position to make that assertion. Read it, judge for yourself, or maybe you're afraid of what you'll find, the truth isn't always pretty.

Quote
Really?  Where have I ever really praised Mother Theresa on this forum?  You assume that just because I want substantiation of the accusations you and others have leveled against her that I actually think her a saint?  All I've really ever said in her defense is that many people from all religions praise Mother Theresa as the epitome of sanctity; I have never said that I agree with them, and you might actually find me willing to reexamine her case with an open mind.

If that is the case, then my apologies...but forgive me for being skeptical since when I did provide a source it was quickly thrown back at me an rejected without any good reason except the 'possibility' of bias.

Quote
Again, a claim that you need to substantiate.

Fully documented, referenced, and discussed in detail in the book I already suggested.
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« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2008, 11:43:07 PM »

I've seen sensationalized stories on this (about how she wrote a couple times that she doubted God), but not much else. Does Hitchins cover this in his book?

Yes, it's addressed amongst other things.
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« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2008, 12:06:59 AM »

Username, my apologies for commenting on Mother Teresa in your domain. I should have done it in Politics or heated debate. Smiley
Yes, that probably would have been better!
But I would just like to say that I know two Australian Sisters of Charity who worked with Mother Theresa and who themselves told me the same thing about her as you have heard and GiC has read.
From 1587, the Roman Catholic Church appointed a Canon Lawyer as the "Promotor Fidei" ("Promotor of the Faith") whose job it was to argue the case against the Canonization of a Saint, hence they became popularly known as the "Advocatus Diaboli" ("The Devil's Advocate"). Interestingly, Pope John Paul II abolished the role of the "Devil's Advocate" in 1983, and his pontificate saw nearly 500 Canonizations and over 1300 Beatifications as compared to only 98 Canonizations by all the Popes of the 20th Century which preceeded him.
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« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2008, 12:35:44 AM »

Quote
Can you substantiate these accusations rather than just calling them facts?

I gave you a source which is full of research, interviews, etc. But you're unwilling to consider it. Why should I assume you'll better receive any other source I provide?
Well, speaking for myself, the vitriolic reaction I see here from you doesn't exactly endear you as a rational reviewer of this book.

Quote
Quote
Again, a claim that you need to substantiate.

Fully documented, referenced, and discussed in detail in the book I already suggested.
I'm not going to put money down on this book based solely on what you say about it, for I really don't care that much about this issue--if the Roman Catholic Church wants to canonize Mother Teresa or if they don't, it's no skin off my nose.  You've made some public claims about Mother Teresa on this thread, and I would like you to substantiate them on this thread.  Reference Mr. Hitchens's book if you want, but don't make me or anyone else go and read it.
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« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2008, 01:05:41 AM »

I'm not going to put money down on this book based solely on what you say about it, for I really don't care that much about this issue--if the Roman Catholic Church wants to canonize Mother Teresa or if they don't, it's no skin off my nose.  You've made some public claims about Mother Teresa on this thread, and I would like you to substantiate them on this thread.  Reference Mr. Hitchens's book if you want, but don't make me or anyone else go and read it.

I would put down my sources as well, but I asked username to put all this heat into another thread...again, I apologize. It's just that I feel very strongly about Mother Teresa. The people of Calcutta are right...we westerners have made her into a goddess.
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« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2008, 10:34:01 AM »

Ok here some articles about Agnes Gonxha Bojaxhiu (aka "Mother Teresa")
the first one was writtten someone who actually worked with her order:

http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/shields_18_1.html

article from a conservative publication:
http://members.lycos.co.uk/bajuu/

http://www.newstatesman.com/200508220019

http://ffrf.org/fttoday/1996/august96/hakeem.html

wriiten by an Indian physician who saw her con job first hand:
http://www.meteorbooks.com/

Here are links to the documentary "Hell's Angel" an honest look at this fraudulent huckster:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQejG7-sGk4

I hope the RCC does canonize her....money grubbing media-skanks need a patron saint too!

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« Reply #14 on: September 22, 2008, 10:48:20 AM »

"Media-skank"? This thread is diabolical.  Angry

If there was no vicious agenda behind all of this, you would not need to resort to name-calling. Christopher Hitchens liked to call her the "Ghoul of Calcutta," "that bitch," and "the hell bat."

The fact that comfortable people sitting in their comfortable homes in front of their computers dare to use such invective against a nun who gave her life to suffer as a servant of the poorest of the poor for half a century makes me sick.  Angry

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« Reply #15 on: September 22, 2008, 10:53:05 AM »

"If there was no vicious agenda behind all of this, you would not need to resort to name-calling. Christopher Hitchens liked to call her the "Ghoul of Calcutta," "that bitch," and "the hell bat." "

The point of this thread is exposing certain facts about Agnes Gonxha Bojaxhiu. Sorry if that strikes her goo-goo eyed acolytes as diabolical, but remeber what the kitty said....

Many people on this forum were only to happy to pontificate when the issues around former Met. Herman became public.

"The fact that comfortable people sitting in their comfortable homes in front of their computers dare to use such invective against a nun who gave her life to suffer as a servant of the poorest of the poor for half a century makes me sick.  "

She didn't suffer as servant of the sick, that's the point of the thread. As far as invectice, believe me I've toned my feelings down considerably. If I posted what I was thinking, it would melt my keyboard.
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« Reply #16 on: September 22, 2008, 10:53:47 AM »

From 1587, the Roman Catholic Church appointed a Canon Lawyer as the "Promotor Fidei" ("Promotor of the Faith") whose job it was to argue the case against the Canonization of a Saint, hence they became popularly known as the "Advocatus Diaboli" ("The Devil's Advocate"). Interestingly, Pope John Paul II abolished the role of the "Devil's Advocate" in 1983, and his pontificate saw nearly 500 Canonizations and over 1300 Beatifications as compared to only 98 Canonizations by all the Popes of the 20th Century which preceeded him.

Christopher Hitchens, of all people, was appointed by the Holy See to argue against the cause of Mother Teresa.
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« Reply #17 on: September 22, 2008, 11:02:11 AM »

From 1587, the Roman Catholic Church appointed a Canon Lawyer as the "Promotor Fidei" ("Promotor of the Faith") whose job it was to argue the case against the Canonization of a Saint, hence they became popularly known as the "Advocatus Diaboli" ("The Devil's Advocate"). Interestingly, Pope John Paul II abolished the role of the "Devil's Advocate" in 1983, and his pontificate saw nearly 500 Canonizations and over 1300 Beatifications as compared to only 98 Canonizations by all the Popes of the 20th Century which preceeded him.

Christopher Hitchens, of all people, was appointed by the Holy See to argue against the cause of Mother Teresa.

Right, which proves that the RCC felt he had researched carefully and was credible.
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« Reply #18 on: September 22, 2008, 11:13:24 AM »

But she didn't "suffer as a servant of the poor" and that's the point of the thread.

Read Mother Teresa: Come be My Light (ed. Brian Kolodiejchuk, Doubleday, 2007), and tell me again she didn't. You think she went to India more than 60 years ago with the motivation to become a beloved world figure? She had a comfortable home with the Sisters of Loreto. She wrote in her diary that she knew she was going to suffer for the poor in India, but she said yes to the call.

It was her selfless and tireless work that brought her international attention, and that attention came decades after she had begun it. And  that publicity (which she very smartly used in her old age) brought global attention to the poorest of the poor in the Third World and is largely responsible for the great growth of the order she founded. More than 5,000 sisters and 450 brothers work around the world in 120 countries, running hospices, missions, schools and shelters. I've spoken to people who were inspired by her to give their lives in charity and service. I would also add that she used that global attention to strongly stand for the Culture of Life.

And for almost fifty years, she never had the consolation of God's presence. She suffered in spiritual darkness through it all. We only know this because her private letters and diary were not destroyed (against her wishes).
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« Reply #19 on: September 22, 2008, 11:24:08 AM »

"If there was no vicious agenda behind all of this, you would not need to resort to name-calling. Christopher Hitchens liked to call her the "Ghoul of Calcutta," "that bitch," and "the hell bat." "

The point of this thread is exposing certain facts about Agnes Gonxha Bojaxhiu. Sorry if that strikes her goo-goo eyed acolytes as diabolical, but remeber what the kitty said....

Many people on this forum were only to happy to pontificate when the issues around former Met. Herman became public.

"The fact that comfortable people sitting in their comfortable homes in front of their computers dare to use such invective against a nun who gave her life to suffer as a servant of the poorest of the poor for half a century makes me sick.  "

She didn't suffer as servant of the sick, that's the point of the thread. As far as invectice, believe me I've toned my feelings down considerably. If I posted what I was thinking, it would melt my keyboard.


Regardless of your opinion of her, please do not insult the woman by calling her a "media-skank."  Further ad hominems will be moderated accordingly.  --EofK
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« Reply #20 on: September 22, 2008, 11:36:00 AM »

From 1587, the Roman Catholic Church appointed a Canon Lawyer as the "Promotor Fidei" ("Promotor of the Faith") whose job it was to argue the case against the Canonization of a Saint, hence they became popularly known as the "Advocatus Diaboli" ("The Devil's Advocate"). Interestingly, Pope John Paul II abolished the role of the "Devil's Advocate" in 1983, and his pontificate saw nearly 500 Canonizations and over 1300 Beatifications as compared to only 98 Canonizations by all the Popes of the 20th Century which preceeded him.

Christopher Hitchens, of all people, was appointed by the Holy See to argue against the cause of Mother Teresa.

Right, which proves that the RCC felt he had researched carefully and was credible.

Not necessarily. He, a self-appointed "oppositionist," was widely known as a hater of Mother Teresa. They had to find somebody.

Reviews of his The Missionary Position:

"An extended, nun-busting polemic from the The Nation columnist." Publishers Weekly

"This readable, caustic polemic is very short on biographical data and cited sources and lacks scholarly development. Given its provocative nature, it is recommended for libraries owning several titles about Mother Teresa despite its weaknesses." Library Journal

At its heart, Hitchens' beef with Mother Teresa is that she stood for supposedly "fundamentalist" Catholic beliefs (like opposition to abortion, redemptive suffering, and not fearing death). The animus is ideological. The rest is just window-dressing.
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« Reply #21 on: September 22, 2008, 11:40:38 AM »

Ugh. Seeing Mother Teresa called a "skank" on a "Christian" forum makes me consider whether I should participate here anymore. It's just not good for my soul. I don't have her charity.
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« Reply #22 on: September 22, 2008, 11:42:41 AM »

^ Just so you know, Lubeltri, that one made my stomach turn as well. Please know that not all Orthodox are so crass as to have such disrespect for the departed.
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« Reply #23 on: September 22, 2008, 11:57:23 AM »

^ Just so you know, Lubeltri, that one made my stomach turn as well. Please know that not all Orthodox are so crass as to have such disrespect for the departed.

I second this.  Regardless of what she's done in her life she should still be respected as a human being. 
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« Reply #24 on: September 22, 2008, 01:03:36 PM »

In defense of Mother Theresa http://www.nybooks.com/articles/1434 Later addition here: It is intersting that someone like Hitchens who writes for a jaded rag like the Nation magazine has much unfounded criticism of Mother Theresa but has nothing to say about the Nation which has repeatedly apologized for a murderer like Stalin. Additionally, the Nation was fingered by US intelligence in World War II as a pro Soviet publication dedicated to Marxist revolution in the Venona project. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venona_project
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« Reply #25 on: September 22, 2008, 01:57:54 PM »

...
Myrrh, considering the reputation of sanctity Mother Theresa has among people of all religions, ...

I wouldn't know about all religions, not even among Orthodox Christians, but I know 0 (zero, nich, nada, null) Serbian Orthodox whom believe in her "reputation of sanctity".
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« Reply #26 on: September 22, 2008, 02:51:58 PM »

Ugh. Seeing Mother Teresa called a "skank" on a "Christian" forum makes me consider whether I should participate here anymore. It's just not good for my soul. I don't have her charity.
None of this is meant as a personal attack against you, having a good mix of folks from various walks of life and different churches is what helps keep a publc forum interesting.
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« Reply #27 on: September 22, 2008, 02:57:30 PM »

BTW< in my OP i never refered to Agnes Gonxha Bojaxhiu as a "skank"...I used that term in my post and other folks assumed it applied to her. I wonder why.
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« Reply #28 on: September 22, 2008, 03:02:41 PM »

Quote from: Crucifer
BTW< in my OP i never refered to Agnes Gonxha Bojaxhiu as a "skank"...I used that term in my post and other folks assumed it applied to her. I wonder why.

Hmmm...

Ok here some articles about Agnes Gonxha Bojaxhiu (aka "Mother Teresa")
the first one was writtten someone who actually worked with her order:


I hope the RCC does canonize her....money grubbing media-skanks need a patron saint too!

One would think canonizing someone as their patron saint would suggest that they have the same characteristics or are familiar with the practices/work of said people. 

Or how about this one?:
Quote from: Crucifer
Here are links to the documentary "Hell's Angel" an honest look at this fraudulent hukster
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« Reply #29 on: September 22, 2008, 03:55:22 PM »

One would think canonizing someone as their patron saint would suggest that they have the same characteristics or are familiar with the practices/work of said people. 

That she shares those characteristics is the point, it's obvious. That doesn't mean he directly applied the term to her...he didn't...he simply assoicated her with such people.

Quote
Or how about this one?:
Quote from: Crucifer
Here are links to the documentary "Hell's Angel" an honest look at this fraudulent hukster

It's the name of the documentary...how could you complain about him stating that? Unless you're under some delusion that he both created and named the documentary or something?
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« Reply #30 on: September 22, 2008, 04:11:28 PM »

"Not necessarily. He, a self-appointed "oppositionist," was widely known as a hater of Mother Teresa. They had to find somebody."

oh so the Catholic Church wasn't really interested in investigating this woman in any serious way, they only wanted to give the appearence of such...in other words "window dressing".

IIRC, Hitchens original name for the documentary was "Sacred Cow", but the BBC chose "Hell's Angel".

Interesting but only 1 of the refernces I listed is by Hitchens, but he's the only one being criticized.

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« Reply #31 on: September 22, 2008, 04:22:18 PM »

Or how about this one?:
Quote from: Crucifer
Here are links to the documentary "Hell's Angel" an honest look at this fraudulent hukster

It's the name of the documentary...how could you complain about him stating that? Unless you're under some delusion that he both created and named the documentary or something?

I was referring to the fraudulent hukster (sic) part, not the documentary title.
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« Reply #32 on: September 22, 2008, 04:31:40 PM »

Or how about this one?:
Quote from: Crucifer
Here are links to the documentary "Hell's Angel" an honest look at this fraudulent hukster

It's the name of the documentary...how could you complain about him stating that? Unless you're under some delusion that he both created and named the documentary or something?

I was referring to the fraudulent hukster (sic) part, not the documentary title.

thnx for pointing out my speeling error, i've corrected it Cool
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« Reply #33 on: September 22, 2008, 04:33:34 PM »

Know porblem.  Wink 
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« Reply #34 on: September 22, 2008, 04:40:19 PM »

One would think canonizing someone as their patron saint would suggest that they have the same characteristics or are familiar with the practices/work of said people. 
That she shares those characteristics is the point, it's obvious. That doesn't mean he directly applied the term to her...he didn't...he simply assoicated her with such people.

And if frauds, skanks or hucksters were offended, I apologize.
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« Reply #35 on: September 22, 2008, 05:09:08 PM »

Well, I'm finished with OC.net. Thanks to many of you here for being gracious hosts. Farewell.
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« Reply #36 on: September 22, 2008, 06:05:23 PM »

^^ I'm beginning to think I might follow suit.  It just seems the overall tone of the forum has been sinking to lower depths.     
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« Reply #37 on: September 22, 2008, 07:25:00 PM »

Well, I'm finished with OC.net. Thanks to many of you here for being gracious hosts. Farewell.

Give me a break...you attack those you deem too 'progressive' or 'modernist' day in and day out...but someone speaks unfavourably of one of your sacred cows you throw a temper tantrum and threaten to leave. You could at least feign objectivity at times. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #38 on: September 22, 2008, 07:29:20 PM »

Interesting but only 1 of the refernces I listed is by Hitchens, but he's the only one being criticized.
Well, if you read the whole thread, you'll see that criticism of Mr. Hitchens started before you even posted accounts from other people.

As regards Christopher Hitchens:  AFAIK, he's reported to be an avowed atheist whose goal is the destruction of faith in any religion, especially Christianity.  Would anyone with such a militant anti-Christian agenda fit the bill of a credible witness against Mother Teresa?

As to all the other articles both accusing and defending her:  I see enough credibility on both sides to at least recognize much in Mother Teresa's ministry that should be very troubling, yet also much that is still praiseworthy.  I also have to voice some criticism of the previous Pope's effort to fast track her future(?) glorification, as well as the glorification of many other individuals.  Within the Roman church's traditionally centralized authority structure, I really think that this quickness cheapens the title of "Saint" and that the current Pope would do much better to return to a more deliberate process.  In the end, though, what does this matter to me, an Orthodox Christian not in communion with Rome?  Not much.

Now back to Mother Teresa, I see no particular reason right now to glorify her as a saint, but neither do I see any reason to damn her as a demon.
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« Reply #39 on: September 22, 2008, 07:39:11 PM »

...
Myrrh, considering the reputation of sanctity Mother Theresa has among people of all religions, ...

I wouldn't know about all religions, not even among Orthodox Christians, but I know 0 (zero, nich, nada, null) Serbian Orthodox whom believe in her "reputation of sanctity".

I never cared for her or believed in her....to me she's definitely is not a saint....SmileyCentral.com" border="0
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« Reply #40 on: September 22, 2008, 07:53:14 PM »

None of us is perfect and we are all sinners.

When Mr. Hitchen's book came out I was still an atheist, and looked forward to reading what I thought would be a thorough trashing of yet another one of those sanctimonious Christians.

Sadly, I was disappointed, because about midway through the book, it became obvious that Hitchen's criticism of her were almost all based on his disagreement with what the Catholic Church teaches.  The criticisms about the money and the treatment of the patients in her hospitals seemed to be based on the testimony of one particular ex-nun who had been kicked out of the sisterhood and therefore may have had an ax to grind.

There was no "smoking gun".  Ultimately it depends on who you find more credible - Hitchens or the Catholic Church.  And I'm not gonna tell you which one I chose ... but FWIW I'm no longer an atheist so perhaps you can guess.  Wink
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« Reply #41 on: September 22, 2008, 08:13:47 PM »

Here's an article that has no connection to Hitches or Susan Sheilds:
http://members.lycos.co.uk/bajuu/
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« Reply #42 on: September 22, 2008, 08:14:06 PM »

Dear friends,

Rather than consider the validity of Mother Teresa, perhaps we should consider the validity of this thread on a Christian forum. Whatever the truth might be about Mother Teresa's life and work, it's unlikely that any of us are in a position to know the absolute truth. Rather than any of us risking that we might be guilty of making false statements about a person who isn't here to defend themselves, why not leave the matter in God's hands?  
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« Reply #43 on: September 22, 2008, 08:21:26 PM »

Here's an article that has no connection to Hitches or Susan Sheilds:
http://members.lycos.co.uk/bajuu/
You've already posted this link on this thread.
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« Reply #44 on: September 22, 2008, 08:28:22 PM »

Here's an article that has no connection to Hitches or Susan Sheilds:
http://members.lycos.co.uk/bajuu/
You've already posted this link on this thread.

Yes, I wanted to emphasize it because I said earlier, everyone seems to ignore the criticisms themselves and go on and on about Christopher Hitchens.
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« Reply #45 on: September 22, 2008, 08:38:00 PM »

Here's an article that has no connection to Hitches or Susan Sheilds:
http://members.lycos.co.uk/bajuu/
You've already posted this link on this thread.

Yes, I wanted to emphasize it because I said earlier, everyone seems to ignore the criticisms themselves and go on and on about Christopher Hitchens.
That's where you err.  If you go back and read this thread SINCE you posted all those links, you will find that some of us have been willing to address your other criticisms.  However, since Christopher Hitchens has been the loudest and most belligerent of Mother Teresa's critics, it's quite natural he's going to draw the majority of our attention to himself.
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« Reply #46 on: September 22, 2008, 09:11:42 PM »

I don't understand why people are against questioning some aspects of Mother Theresa. While one of the posters may have used some strong language, I think some of the points mentioned need to be investigated (and refuted if found to be untrue).

The truth is probably that she did a lot of good and made a lot of mistakes.  The process of canonization was sped up by the media attention, just like some have called for with John Paul II.  I think that this much is pretty obvious to anyone objective. It probably would have been better to wait a few decades to see what the end result would be.
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« Reply #47 on: September 22, 2008, 09:33:16 PM »

That being said, some people are scandalized by the *tone* of this thread, notwithstanding the subject matter. Please keep the tone of this thread respectful and appropriate for a Christian forum.
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« Reply #48 on: September 23, 2008, 02:52:55 PM »

Whether Mother Theresa is worthy of being declared a saint or not is up to those in Rome.  One thing that really hasn't been mentioned in this post is the process of declaring a saint.  There are commissions that are for and against the beatification and then the canonization. Has not Benedict XVI once again tightened the reigns on canonizing saints after a few decades of more lax rules?  Oh wait, yes he has.  After all it took over 500 years for St. Joan of Arc to receive sainthood.  If I were Roman Catholic I would trust the Vatican on this issue and not rush to judge, and if I doubted my check book would remain tightly closed towards any charities in the name of Mother Theresa.  I mean there are ways to actually have an opinion matter.
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« Reply #49 on: September 23, 2008, 03:37:10 PM »

I hope no one falls into the trap of speculating on the character or person of Mother Teresa; as in any conversation, we should only comment on action and clearly expounded intent.  When we cross the line into character commentary, we move from the realm of fact into that of opinion, and certainly open the door for hatred and sin to enter our hearts and souls.
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« Reply #50 on: September 25, 2008, 10:39:31 AM »

I have done some reading and research in this after reading this thread, though I haven't got Hitchen's book. 

I found a particular quote disturbing. (that there were a number of citations for it and I found it in a speech that she gave at the National Prayer Breakfast in 1994.  The whole speech in on the EWTN site)

"One day I met a lady who was dying of cancer in a most terrible condition. And I told her, I say, "You know, this terrible pain is only the kiss of Jesus--a sign that you have come so close to Jesus on the cross that he can kiss you." And she joined her hands together and said, "Mother Teresa, please tell Jesus to stop kissing me.""
http://www.ewtn.com/New_library/breakfast.htm

The idea that Our Lord is giving excruciating pain to someone and that it is a "kiss" which is a token of love is one that I find alarming, to say the least. And for someone who is not in pain to say such a thing, which I will admit gave me the impression that the patient was being told to just accept it and not get any relief, seems lacking in empathy at the least. 

This kind of idea could lead to some people thinking that God is some kind of "cosmic sadist" who gives pain and calls it love.  Huh Sad  I'm sorry that I"m not very articulate here, but I am, as I wrote, disturbed by this.

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« Reply #51 on: September 25, 2008, 11:05:33 AM »

^Yikes, that is a little disturbing.  To me, this is the peril of asceticism.  There are great things to be learned from the ascetic life but it can go beyond teaching us to do without and get into sadism.  It's a lifestyle that should be approached with caution and not just be offered to the average person as an explanation for pain and suffering. 
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« Reply #52 on: September 25, 2008, 11:09:55 AM »

The quote from Matthew 25 at the top of the EWTN article seems to be the overall framework of Mother Theresa's witness and being applied to all human conditions. I doubt I would have the ability to administer the level of mercy exhibited by the Mother. She is granting closure to a terminally ill person and seeing the suffering of Christ in that person; I also understand that in a situation like this would I understand if undergoing such suffering. Notice there is only understanding toward the one suffering in their anguish. Personally I have seen family members die and did not know Christ when these occurred. Maybe I would have had certain doubts about such a comment by Mother Theresa but now I do not and personally pray daily for the healing of a relative on life support.
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« Reply #53 on: September 25, 2008, 11:23:06 AM »

I have done some reading and research in this after reading this thread, though I haven't got Hitchen's book. 

I found a particular quote disturbing. (that there were a number of citations for it and I found it in a speech that she gave at the National Prayer Breakfast in 1994.  The whole speech in on the EWTN site)

"One day I met a lady who was dying of cancer in a most terrible condition. And I told her, I say, "You know, this terrible pain is only the kiss of Jesus--a sign that you have come so close to Jesus on the cross that he can kiss you." And she joined her hands together and said, "Mother Teresa, please tell Jesus to stop kissing me.""
http://www.ewtn.com/New_library/breakfast.htm

The idea that Our Lord is giving excruciating pain to someone and that it is a "kiss" which is a token of love is one that I find alarming, to say the least. And for someone who is not in pain to say such a thing, which I will admit gave me the impression that the patient was being told to just accept it and not get any relief, seems lacking in empathy at the least. 

This kind of idea could lead to some people thinking that God is some kind of "cosmic sadist" who gives pain and calls it love.  Huh Sad  I'm sorry that I"m not very articulate here, but I am, as I wrote, disturbed by this.

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Well - maybe Mother T was a little tactless to say that.  But then again, maybe she wasn't.  Since none of us was actually there to hear the conversation, it may be like what happens at Internet forums (like this one).

You know how sometimes you post something that you intend to be humorous, but you forget to put in the correct "smiley" emoticon and someone else takes it seriously (and more often than not, gets insulted)?

I think we should give Mother T the benefit of the doubt - especially as she's not around to defend herself.
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« Reply #54 on: September 25, 2008, 11:45:47 AM »

Well - maybe Mother T was a little tactless to say that.  But then again, maybe she wasn't.  Since none of us was actually there to hear the conversation, it may be like what happens at Internet forums (like this one).

You know how sometimes you post something that you intend to be humorous, but you forget to put in the correct "smiley" emoticon and someone else takes it seriously (and more often than not, gets insulted)?

I think we should give Mother T the benefit of the doubt - especially as she's not around to defend herself.

Or perhaps taking Mother Teresa's words at face value and thereby forming impressions could simply be Jesus' way of "kissing" her.  Wink
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« Reply #55 on: September 25, 2008, 04:35:56 PM »


Well - maybe Mother T was a little tactless to say that.  But then again, maybe she wasn't.  Since none of us was actually there to hear the conversation, it may be like what happens at Internet forums (like this one).

This is a case of the lady's own words in a speech that she gave to a large group.  That is why I looked for a source of the quote, to get the context, to find out precisely what was said and what was the setting.  It's not the same thing as hearsay or second or third hand.  Why would not the printed text of a delivered speech on a site that is sympathetic to the person speaking be considered a good source for the truth of what was said, please?

I also do not think that 'a little tactless' is what should happen with an ill person in pain.  I've had occasions of some intense pain in my life, though nothing as serious as cancer. If someone were to tell me in the midst of it that it was Our Lord 'kissing me' it would not have been helpful and it is likely that there would have been something rude being said or yelled.  I've also known people who passed away from cancer or other illnesses and telling them something along those lines would not be 'comforting the dying' in my book.  Sad

Quote
You know how sometimes you post something that you intend to be humorous, but you forget to put in the correct "smiley" emoticon and someone else takes it seriously (and more often than not, gets insulted)?

I think we should give Mother T the benefit of the doubt - especially as she's not around to defend herself.

I assure you that I am aware of the importance of the use of emoticons in 'Net communications.  Smiley  Otoh, the possibility of humour in a situation of someone in agony is not something that I can see.   Is the 'benefit of the doubt' that Mother Teresa was making a jest?   

A point that I was trying to get across is that to some people such a passage could make the Christian God appear to be One who hurts lesser beings badly and calls it "kisses".  Where in the Gospels was Our Lord ever malicious or sadistic?  Nowhere that I know.

Ebor
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« Reply #56 on: September 26, 2008, 12:22:06 PM »

"Uncle".  Embarrassed
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« Reply #57 on: February 23, 2009, 05:17:19 AM »

Myrrh, considering the reputation of sanctity Mother Theresa has among people of all religions, it'd be good not to call her a fraud until you can prove that she is.  Evidence from these professionals from whom you've heard damning information would be a good place to start.

I'll stand by the position that she was corrupt, a fraud, a charlatan, and a hypocrite...not to mention a sadist, and no, not a sadist in a good way. While she partied with Haitian dictators, taking their blood money to build up her order, and enjoyed the best medical care in the world she consigned those under her care to poverty and misery...dying in filth and squalor without access to proper medical care.

She was a genuinely evil person, not simply misguided or inconsistent or uncaring or negligent, but evil in the fullest sense of the term. She does not deserve to go down in history as a saint and advocate of peace...she should go down in history with her name listed beside the despots she befriended.

As for a source, I would recommend starting with Christopher Hitchen's well researched and wonderfully written book The Missionary Position: Mother Teresa in Theory and Practice.

Ah yes... Christopher Hitchens. Now there's a truly objective source. He certainly had no axe to grind did he? I mean, he is so open minded to religious view points isn't he.

Seriously, if you want to castigate Mother Teresa then you've got to give us a better source than Hitchens.

Selam
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« Reply #58 on: February 23, 2009, 05:26:51 AM »

Nothing but your own opinions and a book with which you agree. Roll Eyes  You got anything more convincing than this?

My opinions? Is it merely my opinion that she befrended the Duvaliers? Is it merely my opinion that she took their money which was made on the oppression and slavery of their subjects? Is is merely my opinion that she enjoyed world-class medical care while consigning the poor of Calcutta to her houses of death without proper medical care? Is it merely my opinion that she would separate dying families, not allowing husbands or wives to be at the side of ther dying spouse?

These are facts about this charlatan...and there are many more, but apparently you are unwilling to actually read a book that may not be in line with your preconceived notions. Instead, you jump on the bandwagon of this Mother Teresa cult and excuse all her wrong doing because she claimed to be acting in the name of God.

Granted, there's pleanty of evidence out there that she really didn't take that god stuff seriously, but she at least put on a good enough show to pull the wool over most the faithful's eyes.

What were her motives? I mean, if she were trying to get rich at the expense of other people's suffering, then she sure lived a pretty sparse lifestyle. She wasn't driving a fancy car and living in a mansion somewhere was she? Or maybe she was actually a Madam running a lucrative underground Calcutta brothel. And what better cover than to pose as a Nun!

Thanks to Christopher Hitchens I'm now enlightened. Now I am free from that nagging conviction that Mother Teresa's example used to always cause me! The poor...? To hell with them. (Oh Yeah, there is no hell. Even better. Thanks Christopher Hitchens!)

Selam
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« Reply #59 on: February 23, 2009, 05:45:51 AM »

Ok here some articles about Agnes Gonxha Bojaxhiu (aka "Mother Teresa")
the first one was writtten someone who actually worked with her order:

http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/shields_18_1.html

article from a conservative publication:
http://members.lycos.co.uk/bajuu/

http://www.newstatesman.com/200508220019

http://ffrf.org/fttoday/1996/august96/hakeem.html

wriiten by an Indian physician who saw her con job first hand:
http://www.meteorbooks.com/

Here are links to the documentary "Hell's Angel" an honest look at this fraudulent huckster:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQejG7-sGk4

I hope the RCC does canonize her....money grubbing media-skanks need a patron saint too!



I read the testimony of this former Sister of Charity. She gives her opinion of Mother Teresa's religious philosophy which she eventually decided was different from her own. So she left. That was her decision and she apparrently had good reasons for doing so. But thousands of others had a different view. They stayed and endured and did what they believed was God's work. I don't think any of them would say it was easy.

I have read a lot of Mother Teresa's own words. The situation in India was dire. She was not a nurse, and that was not her calling. She said that one of her main goals was to make sure that dying people could die in the presence of somebody that loved them. They would often take people off the streets mere hours before they died and give tham as much love and comfort as they could in their last moments. If they didn't so this, then these people would die with the callous people of the world passing them by with indifference.

I am not Catholic, and I have some serious problems with the Roman Catholic Church. So, I do not glorify Mother Teresa. But I do respect her, and her example is covicting and challenging to me when I consider how little I do compared to her and her Sisters.

Selam
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« Reply #60 on: April 04, 2009, 02:29:51 PM »

Here's an article that has no connection to Hitches or Susan Sheilds:
http://members.lycos.co.uk/bajuu/
You've already posted this link on this thread.

Yes, I wanted to emphasize it because I said earlier, everyone seems to ignore the criticisms themselves and go on and on about Christopher Hitchens.

Just considering the source, in particular, as someone pointed out, his criticism is short on biography and long on agenda.
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« Reply #61 on: April 04, 2009, 04:47:32 PM »

That being said, some people are scandalized by the *tone* of this thread, notwithstanding the subject matter. Please keep the tone of this thread respectful and appropriate for a Christian forum.

Thank you, father.

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I hope no one falls into the trap of speculating on the character or person of Mother Teresa; as in any conversation, we should only comment on action and clearly expounded intent.  When we cross the line into character commentary, we move from the realm of fact into that of opinion, and certainly open the door for hatred and sin to enter our hearts and souls.

Lord, have mercy!


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« Reply #62 on: April 04, 2009, 08:24:58 PM »

Myrrh, considering the reputation of sanctity Mother Theresa has among people of all religions, it'd be good not to call her a fraud until you can prove that she is.  Evidence from these professionals from whom you've heard damning information would be a good place to start.

I'll stand by the position that she was corrupt, a fraud, a charlatan, and a hypocrite...not to mention a sadist, and no, not a sadist in a good way. While she partied with Haitian dictators, taking their blood money to build up her order, and enjoyed the best medical care in the world she consigned those under her care to poverty and misery...dying in filth and squalor without access to proper medical care.

She was a genuinely evil person, not simply misguided or inconsistent or uncaring or negligent, but evil in the fullest sense of the term. She does not deserve to go down in history as a saint and advocate of peace...she should go down in history with her name listed beside the despots she befriended.

As for a source, I would recommend starting with Christopher Hitchen's well researched and wonderfully written book The Missionary Position: Mother Teresa in Theory and Practice.

Ah yes... Christopher Hitchens. Now there's a truly objective source. He certainly had no axe to grind did he? I mean, he is so open minded to religious view points isn't he.

Seriously, if you want to castigate Mother Teresa then you've got to give us a better source than Hitchens.

Selam

He gives religion as much credit as it deserves...and then some. But the evil and absurdities of religion in general are for another thread, this one is for the evil and absurdities of Agnes Gonxha Bojaxhiu .

You want another source? How about her friends, the Duvaliers?

Nothing but your own opinions and a book with which you agree. Roll Eyes  You got anything more convincing than this?

My opinions? Is it merely my opinion that she befrended the Duvaliers? Is it merely my opinion that she took their money which was made on the oppression and slavery of their subjects? Is is merely my opinion that she enjoyed world-class medical care while consigning the poor of Calcutta to her houses of death without proper medical care? Is it merely my opinion that she would separate dying families, not allowing husbands or wives to be at the side of ther dying spouse?

These are facts about this charlatan...and there are many more, but apparently you are unwilling to actually read a book that may not be in line with your preconceived notions. Instead, you jump on the bandwagon of this Mother Teresa cult and excuse all her wrong doing because she claimed to be acting in the name of God.

Granted, there's pleanty of evidence out there that she really didn't take that god stuff seriously, but she at least put on a good enough show to pull the wool over most the faithful's eyes.

What were her motives? I mean, if she were trying to get rich at the expense of other people's suffering, then she sure lived a pretty sparse lifestyle. She wasn't driving a fancy car and living in a mansion somewhere was she? Or maybe she was actually a Madam running a lucrative underground Calcutta brothel. And what better cover than to pose as a Nun!

Nah, she would never manage a brothel, for to do so might bring others pleasure and through doing so only bring herself pain. Her pleasure came through the suffering of others...and not mere temporary suffering, but severe and lasting pain.

Quote
Thanks to Christopher Hitchens I'm now enlightened. Now I am free from that nagging conviction that Mother Teresa's example used to always cause me! The poor...? To hell with them. (Oh Yeah, there is no hell. Even better. Thanks Christopher Hitchens!)

Selam

So as Christopher Hitchens would never consign any to hell, we must logically assume that he is mornally superior to Duvaliers who would.
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« Reply #63 on: April 04, 2009, 11:19:25 PM »

That being said, some people are scandalized by the *tone* of this thread, notwithstanding the subject matter. Please keep the tone of this thread respectful and appropriate for a Christian forum.

I am taking the liberty of repeating to all thread participants this request made by Fr Anastasios several months ago.  Thank you. 

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« Reply #64 on: April 04, 2009, 11:23:37 PM »

Nothing but your own opinions and a book with which you agree. Roll Eyes  You got anything more convincing than this?

My opinions? Is it merely my opinion that she befrended the Duvaliers? Is it merely my opinion that she took their money which was made on the oppression and slavery of their subjects? Is is merely my opinion that she enjoyed world-class medical care while consigning the poor of Calcutta to her houses of death without proper medical care?
What did she do?  Close down all those hospitals in Calcutta?  Run out of town all those doctors lining up to serve the poor? Huh


What were her motives? I mean, if she were trying to get rich at the expense of other people's suffering, then she sure lived a pretty sparse lifestyle. She wasn't driving a fancy car and living in a mansion somewhere was she? Or maybe she was actually a Madam running a lucrative underground Calcutta brothel. And what better cover than to pose as a Nun!

Nah, she would never manage a brothel, for to do so might bring others pleasure and through doing so only bring herself pain. Her pleasure came through the suffering of others...and not mere temporary suffering, but severe and lasting pain.

Yes, prostitution is SOOO much a trade in flesh full of happiness.  Every father's dream is to have his daughter sell herself (the pimp, of course, taking his "fair share.").  That why prostitutes are know for their long lives, looking back on a life wallowing in happiness. Roll Eyes

Thanks to Christopher Hitchens I'm now enlightened. Now I am free from that nagging conviction that Mother Teresa's example used to always cause me! The poor...? To hell with them. (Oh Yeah, there is no hell. Even better. Thanks Christopher Hitchens!)

Selam

So as Christopher Hitchens would never consign any to hell, we must logically assume that he is mornally superior to Duvaliers who would.
So we must logically assume that enablers love some more than those engaged in intervention. Shocked
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« Reply #65 on: April 05, 2009, 12:10:36 AM »

Nothing but your own opinions and a book with which you agree. Roll Eyes  You got anything more convincing than this?

My opinions? Is it merely my opinion that she befrended the Duvaliers? Is it merely my opinion that she took their money which was made on the oppression and slavery of their subjects? Is is merely my opinion that she enjoyed world-class medical care while consigning the poor of Calcutta to her houses of death without proper medical care?
What did she do?  Close down all those hospitals in Calcutta?  Run out of town all those doctors lining up to serve the poor? Huh

It's good she didn't have the power of the Duvaliers, or no doubt she would have been just as cruel...probably moreso. The fact that the damage she did was limited by the limits of her power is hardly a justification for the harm she did do to the poor of calcuta, for the waste of resources, for the destruction of families.

Quote
What were her motives? I mean, if she were trying to get rich at the expense of other people's suffering, then she sure lived a pretty sparse lifestyle. She wasn't driving a fancy car and living in a mansion somewhere was she? Or maybe she was actually a Madam running a lucrative underground Calcutta brothel. And what better cover than to pose as a Nun!

Nah, she would never manage a brothel, for to do so might bring others pleasure and through doing so only bring herself pain. Her pleasure came through the suffering of others...and not mere temporary suffering, but severe and lasting pain.

Yes, prostitution is SOOO much a trade in flesh full of happiness.  Every father's dream is to have his daughter sell herself (the pimp, of course, taking his "fair share.").  That why prostitutes are know for their long lives, looking back on a life wallowing in happiness. Roll Eyes

All things considered, I'd most certainly rather see a person grow up to be a prostitute than be like Mother Teresa...the former would certainly, without any shadow of a doubt, be a more noble profession. Perhaps it would not grant the same sadistic pleasure enjoyed by Mother Teresa or Le Marquis de Sade (not that the temporary pain enjoyed by the latter should even be reasonably compared to the lasting pain the former found pleasure in)...but the profession is certainly more noble.

Quote
Thanks to Christopher Hitchens I'm now enlightened. Now I am free from that nagging conviction that Mother Teresa's example used to always cause me! The poor...? To hell with them. (Oh Yeah, there is no hell. Even better. Thanks Christopher Hitchens!)

Selam

So as Christopher Hitchens would never consign any to hell, we must logically assume that he is mornally superior to Duvaliers who would.
So we must logically assume that enablers love some more than those engaged in intervention. Shocked

When talking about liberation from a sadistic lie...most certainly.
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« Reply #66 on: April 05, 2009, 12:18:01 AM »

Quote
All things considered, I'd most certainly rather see a person grow up to be a prostitute than be like Mother Teresa...the former would certainly, without any shadow of a doubt, be a more noble profession. Perhaps it would not grant the same sadistic pleasure enjoyed by Mother Teresa or Le Marquis de Sade (not that the temporary pain enjoyed by the latter should even be reasonably compared to the lasting pain the former found pleasure in)...but the profession is certainly more noble.

To quote Mandy Rice-Davies: He would say that, wouldn't he?  laugh
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« Reply #67 on: April 05, 2009, 12:38:28 AM »

Just because GiC is back to play doesn't mean one has to take his trolling bait so readily.
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« Reply #68 on: April 05, 2009, 12:44:01 AM »

Just because GiC is back to play doesn't mean one has to take his trolling bait so readily.

You just get upset when someone offers an opinion different from your own...I'm not the only one towards whom you make such accusations.
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« Reply #69 on: April 05, 2009, 01:00:25 AM »

Just because GiC is back to play doesn't mean one has to take his trolling bait so readily.

You just get upset when someone offers an opinion different from your own...I'm not the only one towards whom you make such accusations.
Nice try... Roll Eyes
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« Reply #70 on: April 05, 2009, 07:53:01 AM »

Nothing but your own opinions and a book with which you agree. Roll Eyes  You got anything more convincing than this?

My opinions? Is it merely my opinion that she befrended the Duvaliers? Is it merely my opinion that she took their money which was made on the oppression and slavery of their subjects? Is is merely my opinion that she enjoyed world-class medical care while consigning the poor of Calcutta to her houses of death without proper medical care?
What did she do?  Close down all those hospitals in Calcutta?  Run out of town all those doctors lining up to serve the poor? Huh

It's good she didn't have the power of the Duvaliers, or no doubt she would have been just as cruel...probably moreso. The fact that the damage she did was limited by the limits of her power is hardly a justification for the harm she did do to the poor of calcuta, for the waste of resources, for the destruction of families.

That's a heavy spin versus fact ratio, even for you.

What were her motives? I mean, if she were trying to get rich at the expense of other people's suffering, then she sure lived a pretty sparse lifestyle. She wasn't driving a fancy car and living in a mansion somewhere was she? Or maybe she was actually a Madam running a lucrative underground Calcutta brothel. And what better cover than to pose as a Nun!

Nah, she would never manage a brothel, for to do so might bring others pleasure and through doing so only bring herself pain. Her pleasure came through the suffering of others...and not mere temporary suffering, but severe and lasting pain.

Yes, prostitution is SOOO much a trade in flesh full of happiness.  Every father's dream is to have his daughter sell herself (the pimp, of course, taking his "fair share.").  That why prostitutes are know for their long lives, looking back on a life wallowing in happiness. Roll Eyes

All things considered, I'd most certainly rather see a person grow up to be a prostitute than be like Mother Teresa...the former would certainly, without any shadow of a doubt, be a more noble profession. Perhaps it would not grant the same sadistic pleasure enjoyed by Mother Teresa or Le Marquis de Sade (not that the temporary pain enjoyed by the latter should even be reasonably compared to the lasting pain the former found pleasure in)...but the profession is certainly more noble.

You cares what you would rather?  Just go spend your money elsewhere.

Thanks to Christopher Hitchens I'm now enlightened. Now I am free from that nagging conviction that Mother Teresa's example used to always cause me! The poor...? To hell with them. (Oh Yeah, there is no hell. Even better. Thanks Christopher Hitchens!)

Selam

So as Christopher Hitchens would never consign any to hell, we must logically assume that he is mornally superior to Duvaliers who would.
So we must logically assume that enablers love some more than those engaged in intervention. Shocked

When talking about liberation from a sadistic lie
Like the Enlightenment?

Quote
...most certainly.
Roll Eyes
« Last Edit: April 05, 2009, 07:55:11 AM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #71 on: April 05, 2009, 04:43:17 PM »

I have done some reading and research in this after reading this thread, though I haven't got Hitchen's book. 

I found a particular quote disturbing. (that there were a number of citations for it and I found it in a speech that she gave at the National Prayer Breakfast in 1994.  The whole speech in on the EWTN site)

"One day I met a lady who was dying of cancer in a most terrible condition. And I told her, I say, "You know, this terrible pain is only the kiss of Jesus--a sign that you have come so close to Jesus on the cross that he can kiss you." And she joined her hands together and said, "Mother Teresa, please tell Jesus to stop kissing me.""
http://www.ewtn.com/New_library/breakfast.htm

The idea that Our Lord is giving excruciating pain to someone and that it is a "kiss" which is a token of love is one that I find alarming, to say the least. And for someone who is not in pain to say such a thing, which I will admit gave me the impression that the patient was being told to just accept it and not get any relief, seems lacking in empathy at the least. 

This kind of idea could lead to some people thinking that God is some kind of "cosmic sadist" who gives pain and calls it love.  Huh Sad  I'm sorry that I"m not very articulate here, but I am, as I wrote, disturbed by this.

Ebor

You can listen to this talk here:

http://www.priestsforlife.org/audios/mother-teresa-speech.mp3

The line about telling Jesus to stop kissing her was clearly meant to be humorous and not serious (you can hear the laughter in the audience). I think it is clear from the context that Blessed Teresa did not mean that Christ was "giving" the woman pain. But God was using the pain the woman bore to bring her so close to Jesus that he could kiss her. She was bearing the Cross, united with Jesus.

I mean, it's the same thing with the Crucifixion. God didn't cause it, but he used it out of love to bring us to Him.

It's one of the great mysteries of God that He can make sure that suffering need not be in vain, but instead accomplish great things. That's why He allows it to happen.
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« Reply #72 on: April 09, 2009, 11:33:11 AM »

Nothing but your own opinions and a book with which you agree. Roll Eyes  You got anything more convincing than this?

My opinions? Is it merely my opinion that she befrended the Duvaliers? Is it merely my opinion that she took their money which was made on the oppression and slavery of their subjects? Is is merely my opinion that she enjoyed world-class medical care while consigning the poor of Calcutta to her houses of death without proper medical care?
What did she do?  Close down all those hospitals in Calcutta?  Run out of town all those doctors lining up to serve the poor? Huh

It's good she didn't have the power of the Duvaliers, or no doubt she would have been just as cruel...probably moreso. The fact that the damage she did was limited by the limits of her power is hardly a justification for the harm she did do to the poor of calcuta, for the waste of resources, for the destruction of families.

Quote
What were her motives? I mean, if she were trying to get rich at the expense of other people's suffering, then she sure lived a pretty sparse lifestyle. She wasn't driving a fancy car and living in a mansion somewhere was she? Or maybe she was actually a Madam running a lucrative underground Calcutta brothel. And what better cover than to pose as a Nun!

Nah, she would never manage a brothel, for to do so might bring others pleasure and through doing so only bring herself pain. Her pleasure came through the suffering of others...and not mere temporary suffering, but severe and lasting pain.

Yes, prostitution is SOOO much a trade in flesh full of happiness.  Every father's dream is to have his daughter sell herself (the pimp, of course, taking his "fair share.").  That why prostitutes are know for their long lives, looking back on a life wallowing in happiness. Roll Eyes

All things considered, I'd most certainly rather see a person grow up to be a prostitute than be like Mother Teresa...the former would certainly, without any shadow of a doubt, be a more noble profession. Perhaps it would not grant the same sadistic pleasure enjoyed by Mother Teresa or Le Marquis de Sade (not that the temporary pain enjoyed by the latter should even be reasonably compared to the lasting pain the former found pleasure in)...but the profession is certainly more noble.

Quote
Thanks to Christopher Hitchens I'm now enlightened. Now I am free from that nagging conviction that Mother Teresa's example used to always cause me! The poor...? To hell with them. (Oh Yeah, there is no hell. Even better. Thanks Christopher Hitchens!)

Selam

So as Christopher Hitchens would never consign any to hell, we must logically assume that he is mornally superior to Duvaliers who would.
So we must logically assume that enablers love some more than those engaged in intervention. Shocked

When talking about liberation from a sadistic lie...most certainly.

What I don't understand, greekischristian, is why you still hold on to intrinsic values. 

 



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« Reply #73 on: April 09, 2009, 12:10:44 PM »

I see the mediocrity of recurrent slander of this dear woman has resumed ad nauseum. Lord, have mercy!
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« Reply #74 on: April 09, 2009, 12:58:20 PM »

Nothing but your own opinions and a book with which you agree. Roll Eyes  You got anything more convincing than this?

My opinions? Is it merely my opinion that she befrended the Duvaliers? Is it merely my opinion that she took their money which was made on the oppression and slavery of their subjects? Is is merely my opinion that she enjoyed world-class medical care while consigning the poor of Calcutta to her houses of death without proper medical care?
What did she do?  Close down all those hospitals in Calcutta?  Run out of town all those doctors lining up to serve the poor? Huh

It's good she didn't have the power of the Duvaliers, or no doubt she would have been just as cruel...probably moreso. The fact that the damage she did was limited by the limits of her power is hardly a justification for the harm she did do to the poor of calcuta, for the waste of resources, for the destruction of families.

Quote
What were her motives? I mean, if she were trying to get rich at the expense of other people's suffering, then she sure lived a pretty sparse lifestyle. She wasn't driving a fancy car and living in a mansion somewhere was she? Or maybe she was actually a Madam running a lucrative underground Calcutta brothel. And what better cover than to pose as a Nun!

Nah, she would never manage a brothel, for to do so might bring others pleasure and through doing so only bring herself pain. Her pleasure came through the suffering of others...and not mere temporary suffering, but severe and lasting pain.

Yes, prostitution is SOOO much a trade in flesh full of happiness.  Every father's dream is to have his daughter sell herself (the pimp, of course, taking his "fair share.").  That why prostitutes are know for their long lives, looking back on a life wallowing in happiness. Roll Eyes

All things considered, I'd most certainly rather see a person grow up to be a prostitute than be like Mother Teresa...the former would certainly, without any shadow of a doubt, be a more noble profession. Perhaps it would not grant the same sadistic pleasure enjoyed by Mother Teresa or Le Marquis de Sade (not that the temporary pain enjoyed by the latter should even be reasonably compared to the lasting pain the former found pleasure in)...but the profession is certainly more noble.

Quote
Thanks to Christopher Hitchens I'm now enlightened. Now I am free from that nagging conviction that Mother Teresa's example used to always cause me! The poor...? To hell with them. (Oh Yeah, there is no hell. Even better. Thanks Christopher Hitchens!)

Selam

So as Christopher Hitchens would never consign any to hell, we must logically assume that he is mornally superior to Duvaliers who would.
So we must logically assume that enablers love some more than those engaged in intervention. Shocked

When talking about liberation from a sadistic lie...most certainly.

What I don't understand, greekischristian, is why you still hold on to intrinsic values. 

One does not need religion to appreciate the intrinic value of humanism. The evolutionary developments of the human intellect, human civilization, and human science alone are sufficient. Death, poverty, suffering, and squalor waste the resources of human intellect and commodities and have a universially negative effect.
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« Reply #75 on: April 09, 2009, 05:44:19 PM »

Just wondering if the criticism of Mother Teresa also applies to the women who have joined her order around the world, and continue to do so?  Or is it just MT personally you don't like?  Huh
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« Reply #76 on: April 09, 2009, 06:04:16 PM »

Declaring Mother Theresa a saint will be up to the RCC. Its not really our concern, nor will we need to venarate her as she is not of our communion. We can recognize the works of charity she has done, and going beyond the call of duty required, which she never thought of as "going beyond the call". This is something to emulate.

In another thread on this forum we discussed the faults of orthodox saints, namely emperors who have been glorified by the church, and if they were able to overcome I dont think we need to dwell to much on Mother Theresa.
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« Reply #77 on: April 09, 2009, 09:57:12 PM »

Nothing but your own opinions and a book with which you agree. Roll Eyes  You got anything more convincing than this?

My opinions? Is it merely my opinion that she befrended the Duvaliers? Is it merely my opinion that she took their money which was made on the oppression and slavery of their subjects? Is is merely my opinion that she enjoyed world-class medical care while consigning the poor of Calcutta to her houses of death without proper medical care?
What did she do?  Close down all those hospitals in Calcutta?  Run out of town all those doctors lining up to serve the poor? Huh

It's good she didn't have the power of the Duvaliers, or no doubt she would have been just as cruel...probably moreso. The fact that the damage she did was limited by the limits of her power is hardly a justification for the harm she did do to the poor of calcuta, for the waste of resources, for the destruction of families.

Quote
What were her motives? I mean, if she were trying to get rich at the expense of other people's suffering, then she sure lived a pretty sparse lifestyle. She wasn't driving a fancy car and living in a mansion somewhere was she? Or maybe she was actually a Madam running a lucrative underground Calcutta brothel. And what better cover than to pose as a Nun!

Nah, she would never manage a brothel, for to do so might bring others pleasure and through doing so only bring herself pain. Her pleasure came through the suffering of others...and not mere temporary suffering, but severe and lasting pain.

Yes, prostitution is SOOO much a trade in flesh full of happiness.  Every father's dream is to have his daughter sell herself (the pimp, of course, taking his "fair share.").  That why prostitutes are know for their long lives, looking back on a life wallowing in happiness. Roll Eyes

All things considered, I'd most certainly rather see a person grow up to be a prostitute than be like Mother Teresa...the former would certainly, without any shadow of a doubt, be a more noble profession. Perhaps it would not grant the same sadistic pleasure enjoyed by Mother Teresa or Le Marquis de Sade (not that the temporary pain enjoyed by the latter should even be reasonably compared to the lasting pain the former found pleasure in)...but the profession is certainly more noble.

Quote
Thanks to Christopher Hitchens I'm now enlightened. Now I am free from that nagging conviction that Mother Teresa's example used to always cause me! The poor...? To hell with them. (Oh Yeah, there is no hell. Even better. Thanks Christopher Hitchens!)

Selam

So as Christopher Hitchens would never consign any to hell, we must logically assume that he is mornally superior to Duvaliers who would.
So we must logically assume that enablers love some more than those engaged in intervention. Shocked

When talking about liberation from a sadistic lie...most certainly.

What I don't understand, greekischristian, is why you still hold on to intrinsic values. 

One does not need religion to appreciate the intrinic value of humanism. The evolutionary developments of the human intellect, human civilization, and human science alone are sufficient. Death, poverty, suffering, and squalor waste the resources of human intellect and commodities and have a universially negative effect.

Yes, I understand you to be a [secular] humanist.  Smiley

The humanist can see his humanism as of intrinsic value; but when the source of value and disvalue is man, and when various men have have created their own values and disvalues (and non-values), I don't see how a value can make any claims of being an in-itself end for those who do not regard it as a value, much less an intrinsic value of universal scope.         

In any case, my alter ego tends more towards nihilism.     
« Last Edit: April 09, 2009, 10:00:05 PM by StGeorge » Logged
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« Reply #78 on: April 09, 2009, 11:33:39 PM »

Declaring Mother Theresa a saint will be up to the RCC. Its not really our concern, nor will we need to venarate her as she is not of our communion. We can recognize the works of charity she has done, and going beyond the call of duty required, which she never thought of as "going beyond the call". This is something to emulate.

In another thread on this forum we discussed the faults of orthodox saints, namely emperors who have been glorified by the church, and if they were able to overcome I dont think we need to dwell to much on Mother Theresa.

Excellent...
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« Reply #79 on: April 10, 2009, 12:45:14 AM »

Just wondering if the criticism of Mother Teresa also applies to the women who have joined her order around the world, and continue to do so?  Or is it just MT personally you don't like?  Huh

Each and every person must be judged on their own merits...I cannot condemn someone just because they adhear to some absurd and perverted philosophy/theolgy. They may be good people with unfortunate tramatic situations in early child hood, frightened and without aid they may have turned to the sadistic ideals of this woman in desparation. Or perhaps in ignorane, following her popular cult, they embraced her teachings, never allowing themselves to fully understand the evil they engraned themselves into. So, no, it's just her that I condemn here. More than anything else I feel pitty for her truly devouted followers.
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« Reply #80 on: April 10, 2009, 12:49:17 AM »

Nothing but your own opinions and a book with which you agree. Roll Eyes  You got anything more convincing than this?

My opinions? Is it merely my opinion that she befrended the Duvaliers? Is it merely my opinion that she took their money which was made on the oppression and slavery of their subjects? Is is merely my opinion that she enjoyed world-class medical care while consigning the poor of Calcutta to her houses of death without proper medical care?
What did she do?  Close down all those hospitals in Calcutta?  Run out of town all those doctors lining up to serve the poor? Huh

It's good she didn't have the power of the Duvaliers, or no doubt she would have been just as cruel...probably moreso. The fact that the damage she did was limited by the limits of her power is hardly a justification for the harm she did do to the poor of calcuta, for the waste of resources, for the destruction of families.

Quote
What were her motives? I mean, if she were trying to get rich at the expense of other people's suffering, then she sure lived a pretty sparse lifestyle. She wasn't driving a fancy car and living in a mansion somewhere was she? Or maybe she was actually a Madam running a lucrative underground Calcutta brothel. And what better cover than to pose as a Nun!

Nah, she would never manage a brothel, for to do so might bring others pleasure and through doing so only bring herself pain. Her pleasure came through the suffering of others...and not mere temporary suffering, but severe and lasting pain.

Yes, prostitution is SOOO much a trade in flesh full of happiness.  Every father's dream is to have his daughter sell herself (the pimp, of course, taking his "fair share.").  That why prostitutes are know for their long lives, looking back on a life wallowing in happiness. Roll Eyes

All things considered, I'd most certainly rather see a person grow up to be a prostitute than be like Mother Teresa...the former would certainly, without any shadow of a doubt, be a more noble profession. Perhaps it would not grant the same sadistic pleasure enjoyed by Mother Teresa or Le Marquis de Sade (not that the temporary pain enjoyed by the latter should even be reasonably compared to the lasting pain the former found pleasure in)...but the profession is certainly more noble.

Quote
Thanks to Christopher Hitchens I'm now enlightened. Now I am free from that nagging conviction that Mother Teresa's example used to always cause me! The poor...? To hell with them. (Oh Yeah, there is no hell. Even better. Thanks Christopher Hitchens!)

Selam

So as Christopher Hitchens would never consign any to hell, we must logically assume that he is mornally superior to Duvaliers who would.
So we must logically assume that enablers love some more than those engaged in intervention. Shocked

When talking about liberation from a sadistic lie...most certainly.

What I don't understand, greekischristian, is why you still hold on to intrinsic values. 

One does not need religion to appreciate the intrinic value of humanism. The evolutionary developments of the human intellect, human civilization, and human science alone are sufficient. Death, poverty, suffering, and squalor waste the resources of human intellect and commodities and have a universially negative effect.

Yes, I understand you to be a [secular] humanist.  Smiley

[quote}
The humanist can see his humanism as of intrinsic value; but when the source of value and disvalue is man, and when various men have have created their own values and disvalues (and non-values), I don't see how a value can make any claims of being an in-itself end for those who do not regard it as a value, much less an intrinsic value of universal scope.         

In any case, my alter ego tends more towards nihilism.     
[/quote]

I make arguments based on the evolution of the human mind, sure some will think differently; biology is a messy process, the combination of chromozomes from two different people does not always produce ideal results, I am certain that some will experience mutations that make them unable to interact in the manner expected of human beings. But what is consistent is the mean of the human behaviour, the average human outlook represents the current state of the evolution of our species and from that, not from the mutated exceptions, can we derive a truly humanistic philosophy based on the evolution of our species.
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« Reply #81 on: April 11, 2009, 12:51:26 AM »

Let's keep this discussion on topic please people.
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« Reply #82 on: April 14, 2009, 06:51:16 PM »

Just wanted to say that I read Hitchens' book, and my impression is that his major beef with Mother Theresa is that she (gasp!) adhered to the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church, specifically in the areas of contraception and abortion.

Now I know some of you disagree with the RCC's teachings in those areas, and that's fine, but it does seem rather unfair to criticize a loyal member of the Church for being - well - a loyal member of the Church.
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« Reply #83 on: April 15, 2009, 11:33:44 AM »

text deleted by poster. a happy pascha to all.
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« Reply #84 on: April 15, 2009, 01:44:30 PM »

I think Hitchens is a proto totalitarian & does not even realize it. He espouses freedom of thought but does not allow it if one's thougt is religious. This article is one big self rationalization on how one ought to think, virtually denies indivdual accountability, & blames everything on religion. http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20070606_christopher_hitchens_religion_poisons_everything/
A quote from Hitchens from the link above: "All that’s required now is that everybody realize the truth of this book.  That’s extremely dangerous preaching, in my opinion." (Referring to the Quran). Should we also use this same logic for his book?
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« Reply #85 on: April 15, 2009, 01:49:26 PM »

Here is another quote from the link above that I thought was a little dodgy, to say the least:

Wiener: I know you’ve often been told that everybody has faith in something—for most Americans, it’s Jesus; for you, it’s reason and science.

Hitchens: That’s not faith, by definition.  You can’t have faith in reason.  It’s not a dogma.  It’s a conviction that this is the only way that discovery and progress can be made.

Semantics 101?
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« Reply #86 on: April 15, 2009, 01:50:22 PM »

Hitchens political talk split off to its own thread:

Re: Hitchens, Mother Teresa, and Politics
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,20773.0.html
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« Reply #87 on: April 15, 2009, 02:04:45 PM »

Here is another quote from the link above that I thought was a little dodgy, to say the least:

Wiener: I know you’ve often been told that everybody has faith in something—for most Americans, it’s Jesus; for you, it’s reason and science.

Hitchens: That’s not faith, by definition.  You can’t have faith in reason.  It’s not a dogma.  It’s a conviction that this is the only way that discovery and progress can be made.

Semantics 101?
Don't we need to have faith in the basic premises of reason in order to accept the validit of reason?
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« Reply #88 on: April 15, 2009, 02:09:09 PM »

Here is another quote from the link above that I thought was a little dodgy, to say the least:

Wiener: I know you’ve often been told that everybody has faith in something—for most Americans, it’s Jesus; for you, it’s reason and science.

Hitchens: That’s not faith, by definition.  You can’t have faith in reason.  It’s not a dogma.  It’s a conviction that this is the only way that discovery and progress can be made.

Semantics 101?
Don't we need to have faith in the basic premises of reason in order to accept the validit of reason?
I would think so, yes.
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