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Author Topic: The Tao = The Logos = Christ?  (Read 5560 times) Average Rating: 0
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Marc1152
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« on: September 17, 2008, 10:57:48 PM »

To facilitate discussion of this topic, I have split this off from here: image of buddha and started the new thread that follows.  -PtA


Furthermore, the Dao is not the Christ any more than the Eternal Buddha Shakyamuni is the Christ just by another name. Those things are LIKE the Christ in many interesting ways. It proves that spiritually minded people of past ages with no knowledge of Christ or Judaism could discern some things that are correct about the Universe and how it operates. That is a fine thing but does not mean the Dao or the Eternal Buddha is in actuality Jesus Christ who really  lived, really died and was really reserected in a really existing place and time.
Just one thing.
It can be argued that in fact, the Logos is the Tao, and that Our Lord Jesus Christ is the Tao incarnate.
In fact, I understand that translations of the Gospel into the Chinese Union Version use the word "Tao" to translate "Logos" in John 1:1.
"In the beginning there was the Tao, and the Tao was with God, and the Tao was God...."

So Christ represented as Asian or Russian or Greek rather than a Semitic male isn't the point, but His becoming man for the salvation of all mankind?
I'd say, "yes".
The important Truth is the Incarnation, not what colour His eyes were.

The Chinese Daoists had a formulation that is remarkably like our understanding of how the Universe exists and cotains great wisdom. So when they translated scripture the word Dao was inserted so they could understand better.  But the Dao is not God ,The Holy Trinity is. In the 16th Chapter of the Lotus Sutra the Buddha reveals his Eternal Life and says such things as "I will always be with you" and preaches in a way very reminiscent of Christ. That preaching is very similar sounding to Christ...period. However, the Buddha isn't Jesus Christ.......
« Last Edit: September 20, 2008, 03:43:44 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2008, 11:50:04 PM »

Furthermore, the Dao is not the Christ any more than the Eternal Buddha Shakyamuni is the Christ just by another name. Those things are LIKE the Christ in many interesting ways. It proves that spiritually minded people of past ages with no knowledge of Christ or Judaism could discern some things that are correct about the Universe and how it operates. That is a fine thing but does not mean the Dao or the Eternal Buddha is in actuality Jesus Christ who really  lived, really died and was really reserected in a really existing place and time.
Just one thing.
It can be argued that in fact, the Logos is the Tao, and that Our Lord Jesus Christ is the Tao incarnate.
In fact, I understand that translations of the Gospel into the Chinese Union Version use the word "Tao" to translate "Logos" in John 1:1.
"In the beginning there was the Tao, and the Tao was with God, and the Tao was God...."

So Christ represented as Asian or Russian or Greek rather than a Semitic male isn't the point, but His becoming man for the salvation of all mankind?
I'd say, "yes".
The important Truth is the Incarnation, not what colour His eyes were.

The Chinese Daoists had a formulation that is remarkably like our understanding of how the Universe exists and cotains great wisdom. So when they translated scripture the word Dao was inserted so they could understand better.  But the Dao is not God ,The Holy Trinity is. In the 16th Chapter of the Lotus Sutra the Buddha reveals his Eternal Life and says such things as "I will always be with you" and preaches in a way very reminiscent of Christ. That preaching is very similar sounding to Christ...period. However, the Buddha isn't Jesus Christ.......

OK chief! police

Who the heck said Jesus was the Buddha...

He is the Dao though!
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« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2008, 08:28:42 AM »

Furthermore, the Dao is not the Christ any more than the Eternal Buddha Shakyamuni is the Christ just by another name. Those things are LIKE the Christ in many interesting ways. It proves that spiritually minded people of past ages with no knowledge of Christ or Judaism could discern some things that are correct about the Universe and how it operates. That is a fine thing but does not mean the Dao or the Eternal Buddha is in actuality Jesus Christ who really  lived, really died and was really reserected in a really existing place and time.
Just one thing.
It can be argued that in fact, the Logos is the Tao, and that Our Lord Jesus Christ is the Tao incarnate.
In fact, I understand that translations of the Gospel into the Chinese Union Version use the word "Tao" to translate "Logos" in John 1:1.
"In the beginning there was the Tao, and the Tao was with God, and the Tao was God...."

So Christ represented as Asian or Russian or Greek rather than a Semitic male isn't the point, but His becoming man for the salvation of all mankind?
I'd say, "yes".
The important Truth is the Incarnation, not what colour His eyes were.

The Chinese Daoists had a formulation that is remarkably like our understanding of how the Universe exists and cotains great wisdom. So when they translated scripture the word Dao was inserted so they could understand better.  But the Dao is not God ,The Holy Trinity is. In the 16th Chapter of the Lotus Sutra the Buddha reveals his Eternal Life and says such things as "I will always be with you" and preaches in a way very reminiscent of Christ. That preaching is very similar sounding to Christ...period. However, the Buddha isn't Jesus Christ.......

OK chief! police

Who the heck said Jesus was the Buddha...

He is the Dao though!

I disagree. He is like the Dao and anthing True about the Dao is included in all Truth. But Jesus Christ is Jesus Christ . Period.

You can find examples of the Buddha, like you can the Dao, that greaqtly resemble the Christ as an Eternal Being. But just like the Dao, the Eternally Living Buddha is not the Christ,

And dont call me Cheif....Thanks  Smiley  
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« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2008, 10:14:03 AM »

I disagree. He is like the Dao and anthing True about the Dao is included in all Truth. But Jesus Christ is Jesus Christ . Period.

You can find examples of the Buddha, like you can the Dao, that greaqtly resemble the Christ as an Eternal Being. But just like the Dao, the Eternally Living Buddha is not the Christ,

And dont call me Cheif....Thanks  Smiley  

I don't see how one can say the Christ is not the Dao. That's like saying "Christ is not the Logos" or "Christ is not the Way".
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« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2008, 12:43:11 PM »

I disagree. He is like the Dao and anthing True about the Dao is included in all Truth. But Jesus Christ is Jesus Christ . Period.

Jesus Christ is not the Λόγος? He is LIKE the Λόγος? You are a blasphemer. Or you don't know Chinese.

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And dont call me Cheif....Thanks  Smiley  

Do not blaspheme.
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« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2008, 12:50:08 PM »

... You are a blasphemer. ...
That is an ad hominem, which will not be tolerated in this discussion.

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Do not blaspheme.
If marc1152 has blasphemed, then please tell us how he has blasphemed, and that without attacking his person.
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« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2008, 12:52:32 PM »

... You are a blasphemer. ...
That is an ad hominem, which will not be tolerated in this discussion.

Quote
Do not blaspheme.
If marc1152 has blasphemed, then please tell us how he has blasphemed, and that without attacking his person.

Apologies. I am a bit sensitive about these things.

Saying our Lord is not the Dao is no different from saying He is not the Λόγος. An insult to His divinity. Period. Unless Greek is the only language the Scripture should be written in... Huh
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« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2008, 12:55:44 PM »

Apologies. I am a bit sensitive about these things.
I forgive you, and may God forgive us all. Smiley
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« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2008, 01:44:08 PM »

I don't think Marc has intentionally blasphemed, I think he's just made an error because of a lack of knowledge.
As pointed out before, the Chinese Union Version of the New Testament (published 1919) uses the word "Tao" (or "Dao") to translate the word "Logos" in the first chapter of the Gospel of John. Like "Logos", "Dao" refers to the Ultimate Reality, the "Way" all things should follow. So to say "Christ is not the Dao, even though He is somewhat like the Dao" would be like saying "Christ is not the Logos, even though He is somewhat like the Logos." This is a blasphemous thing to say, but as I said, I think it's said in ignorance.
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« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2008, 02:07:41 PM »

I don't think Marc has intentionally blasphemed, I think he's just made an error because of a lack of knowledge.
As pointed out before, the Chinese Union Version of the New Testament (published 1919) uses the word "Tao" (or "Dao") to translate the word "Logos" in the first chapter of the Gospel of John. Like "Logos", "Dao" refers to the Ultimate Reality, the "Way" all things should follow. So to say "Christ is not the Dao, even though He is somewhat like the Dao" would be like saying "Christ is not the Logos, even though He is somewhat like the Logos." This is a blasphemous thing to say, but as I said, I think it's said in ignorance.

I understand. I was just angry. Apologies again.

And most if not all Chinese translations, as well as older Korean Bibles, use 道 (Dao/Tao/Do) to translate Λόγος.
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« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2008, 02:15:29 PM »

And most if not all Chinese translations, as well as older Korean Bibles, use 道 (Dao/Tao/Do) to translate Λόγος.
I think, one of the things that might be confusing people is the title of this thread. I think the Tao/Logos discussion needs to be a thread on it's own, because I think people would be genuinely interested to hear more about it.
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« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2008, 03:10:33 PM »

... You are a blasphemer. ...
That is an ad hominem, which will not be tolerated in this discussion.

Quote
Do not blaspheme.
If marc1152 has blasphemed, then please tell us how he has blasphemed, and that without attacking his person.

Apologies. I am a bit sensitive about these things.

Saying our Lord is not the Dao is no different from saying He is not the Λόγος. An insult to His divinity. Period. Unless Greek is the only language the Scripture should be written in... Huh

Scuse me? If you are using the term Tao or Dao generically then that is fine with me. If you are saying that the Object of Worship of the Taoist cults is the exact same thing as God-Christ-Trinity etc. than I take issue with you. This sound like Unitarianism to me. No?

Have you read Christ the Eternal Dao? I have.
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« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2008, 03:17:42 PM »

Scuse me? If you are using the term Tao or Dao generically then that is fine with me. If you are saying that the Object of Worship of the Taoist cults is the exact same thing as God-Christ-Trinity etc. than I take issue with you. This sound like Unitarianism to me. No?

Have you read Christ the Eternal Dao? I have.
Taoists actually don't worship the Tao. While some branches of Taoism have deities, none of them worship the Tao itself.
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« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2008, 05:28:23 PM »

Scuse me? If you are using the term Tao or Dao generically then that is fine with me.

I am using 道 in the sense that Holy Scripture uses it. And in the sense that my ancestors used it.

Quote
If you are saying that the Object of Worship of the Taoist cults is the exact same thing as God-Christ-Trinity etc. than I take issue with you.

Sounds like you need a crash course on Daoism (道教 and "道家"). James Miller has a good book.

Quote
This sound like Unitarianism to me. No?

No. I think the word you are looking for is "Universalism." Doesn't sound like that either.

Quote
Have you read Christ the Eternal Dao? I have.

Yes. Seems like you read it with your eyes closed.
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« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2008, 09:13:30 PM »

Scuse me? If you are using the term Tao or Dao generically then that is fine with me.

I am using 道 in the sense that Holy Scripture uses it. And in the sense that my ancestors used it.

Quote
If you are saying that the Object of Worship of the Taoist cults is the exact same thing as God-Christ-Trinity etc. than I take issue with you.

Sounds like you need a crash course on Daoism (道教 and "道家"). James Miller has a good book.

Quote
This sound like Unitarianism to me. No?

No. I think the word you are looking for is "Universalism." Doesn't sound like that either.

Quote
Have you read Christ the Eternal Dao? I have.

Yes. Seems like you read it with your eyes closed.

And I have a Buddhist Ordination and led a Sangha for many years.. You?
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« Reply #15 on: September 18, 2008, 09:16:02 PM »

Scuse me? If you are using the term Tao or Dao generically then that is fine with me.

I am using 道 in the sense that Holy Scripture uses it. And in the sense that my ancestors used it.

Quote
If you are saying that the Object of Worship of the Taoist cults is the exact same thing as God-Christ-Trinity etc. than I take issue with you.

Sounds like you need a crash course on Daoism (道教 and "道家"). James Miller has a good book.

Quote
This sound like Unitarianism to me. No?

No. I think the word you are looking for is "Universalism." Doesn't sound like that either.

Quote
Have you read Christ the Eternal Dao? I have.

Yes. Seems like you read it with your eyes closed.

An I have a Buddhist Ordination and led a Sangha for many years.. You?

OK. And we're talking about DAOISM (different from Buddhism Wink).

And I am a Religious Studies Major at the University of Texas at Austin, with plans to become an Orthodox priest, God-willing, since we're tootin' our own horns.
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« Reply #16 on: September 20, 2008, 04:27:20 PM »

Who the heck said Jesus was the Buddha...

He is the Dao though!


 laugh  Exactly, the West has little understanding about the very essential differences between Buddhism/Buddha and Taoism/Tao.  Buddha was a historical person (Siddhartha Gautama) who much later became viewed as simply being one of many manifestations of a more coneptual/cosmic "Buddha."  However, the Tao is a philosophical concept and was never considered to be a PERSON... that is, before Jesus Christ.  The "Logos" to the Greeks is the "Tao" to east Asians.  Before Christ, the Greeks never considered the Logos to be a person, but after Christ that all changed.  Thus the original Greek translation of John 1:14 is "the Logos became flesh."  Similarly, the east Asian translations state "the Tao became flesh."
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« Reply #17 on: September 20, 2008, 06:47:23 PM »

This is all very interesting.  What is the underlying meaning of the word Tao?  What does it mean linguistically and what does it mean to the Taoists?
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« Reply #18 on: September 20, 2008, 07:10:42 PM »

And I am a Religious Studies Major at the University of Texas at Austin, with plans to become an Orthodox priest, God-willing, since we're tootin' our own horns.

I have an Undergraduate Degree in Religious Studies and am currently working toward my M.A. in Religious Studies at the University of Kansas.  It seems odd to me that you would choose a secular Religious Studies program if you want to go into the priesthood.  I would think that you would want to study everything from a theological perspective at a seminary.

Religious Studies programs at state universities are great for developing your critical thinking skills and at teaching you how to examine religion from a more (albeit not absolutely) objective perspective at best, but at worst they're taking your money and teaching you how that religions do not hold up against academic scrutiny.  I guess I am just saying if that really becomes your major, be careful.  All knowledge can lead us to God, but many intellectual social circles are truly a brood of vipers.  Not that many religious ones are not.  Anyway, whatever.  Best of luck with your studies.
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« Reply #19 on: September 21, 2008, 05:44:24 PM »

And I am a Religious Studies Major at the University of Texas at Austin, with plans to become an Orthodox priest, God-willing, since we're tootin' our own horns.

I have an Undergraduate Degree in Religious Studies and am currently working toward my M.A. in Religious Studies at the University of Kansas.  It seems odd to me that you would choose a secular Religious Studies program if you want to go into the priesthood.  I would think that you would want to study everything from a theological perspective at a seminary.

Religious Studies programs at state universities are great for developing your critical thinking skills and at teaching you how to examine religion from a more (albeit not absolutely) objective perspective at best, but at worst they're taking your money and teaching you how that religions do not hold up against academic scrutiny.  I guess I am just saying if that really becomes your major, be careful.  All knowledge can lead us to God, but many intellectual social circles are truly a brood of vipers.  Not that many religious ones are not.  Anyway, whatever.  Best of luck with your studies.

I do plan on going to seminary. This is my undergrad major.
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« Reply #20 on: September 21, 2008, 07:20:40 PM »

This is all very interesting.  What is the underlying meaning of the word Tao?  What does it mean linguistically and what does it mean to the Taoists?

The Tao () translates roughly as "The Way" as in "The Way Things Are" or "The Way Things Ought To Be".  The Tao is understood as the "non null" which exists behind all processes in the cosmos, i.e., the Tao is the something (not nothing) in which everything in the Universe exists and operates. It is the Ultimate Reality behind everything, the Reason behind everything and the "Logic" behind everything. Harmony with the Tao and following it (going with the Way) is what everything in the Universe needs to strive towards. This is the understanding of the Logos, hence, the Tao and the Logos describe the same Thing.
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« Reply #21 on: September 21, 2008, 08:07:02 PM »

This is all very interesting.  What is the underlying meaning of the word Tao?  What does it mean linguistically and what does it mean to the Taoists?

The Tao () translates roughly as "The Way" as in "The Way Things Are" or "The Way Things Ought To Be".  The Tao is understood as the "non null" which exists behind all processes in the cosmos, i.e., the Tao is the something (not nothing) in which everything in the Universe exists and operates. It is the Ultimate Reality behind everything, the Reason behind everything and the "Logic" behind everything. Harmony with the Tao and following it (going with the Way) is what everything in the Universe needs to strive towards. This is the understanding of the Logos, hence, the Tao and the Logos describe the same Thing.

And yet.. Taoism and Christianity are not the same. Go figure.

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« Reply #22 on: September 21, 2008, 08:15:05 PM »

This is all very interesting.  What is the underlying meaning of the word Tao?  What does it mean linguistically and what does it mean to the Taoists?

The Tao () translates roughly as "The Way" as in "The Way Things Are" or "The Way Things Ought To Be".  The Tao is understood as the "non null" which exists behind all processes in the cosmos, i.e., the Tao is the something (not nothing) in which everything in the Universe exists and operates. It is the Ultimate Reality behind everything, the Reason behind everything and the "Logic" behind everything. Harmony with the Tao and following it (going with the Way) is what everything in the Universe needs to strive towards. This is the understanding of the Logos, hence, the Tao and the Logos describe the same Thing.

And yet.. Taoism and Christianity are not the same. Go figure.


And yet, the discussion is about the Tao, not about Taoism.
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« Reply #23 on: September 21, 2008, 08:17:19 PM »

And yet.. Taoism and Christianity are not the same. Go figure.
And yet Greek Philosophy and Christianity are not the same...but they both understand the Logos. Smiley
Of course they're not the same. Christianity taught the Greek Philosophers that "the Logos was made flesh", just as Christianity teaches the Chinese that "the Tao was made flesh". The Greeks could no more come up with the notion that what they understood as the Logos had been incarnated on their own any more than the Chinese could come up with the fact that the Tao had been incarnated on their own. Someone who had witnessed it had to report it to them.
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« Reply #24 on: September 21, 2008, 10:05:39 PM »

And yet.. Taoism and Christianity are not the same. Go figure.
And yet Greek Philosophy and Christianity are not the same...but they both understand the Logos. Smiley
Of course they're not the same. Christianity taught the Greek Philosophers that "the Logos was made flesh", just as Christianity teaches the Chinese that "the Tao was made flesh". The Greeks could no more come up with the notion that what they understood as the Logos had been incarnated on their own any more than the Chinese could come up with the fact that the Tao had been incarnated on their own. Someone who had witnessed it had to report it to them.

Yep.
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« Reply #25 on: September 21, 2008, 11:38:22 PM »

And yet.. Taoism and Christianity are not the same. Go figure.
And yet Greek Philosophy and Christianity are not the same...but they both understand the Logos. Smiley
Of course they're not the same. Christianity taught the Greek Philosophers that "the Logos was made flesh", just as Christianity teaches the Chinese that "the Tao was made flesh". The Greeks could no more come up with the notion that what they understood as the Logos had been incarnated on their own any more than the Chinese could come up with the fact that the Tao had been incarnated on their own. Someone who had witnessed it had to report it to them.


Well said, George!
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« Reply #26 on: September 22, 2008, 02:50:49 AM »

And yet.. Taoism and Christianity are not the same. Go figure.
And yet Greek Philosophy and Christianity are not the same...but they both understand the Logos. Smiley
Of course they're not the same. Christianity taught the Greek Philosophers that "the Logos was made flesh", just as Christianity teaches the Chinese that "the Tao was made flesh". The Greeks could no more come up with the notion that what they understood as the Logos had been incarnated on their own any more than the Chinese could come up with the fact that the Tao had been incarnated on their own. Someone who had witnessed it had to report it to them.


Well said, George!

Indeed!
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« Reply #27 on: September 22, 2008, 11:05:52 AM »


[/quote]
And yet Greek Philosophy and Christianity are not the same...but they both understand the Logos. Smiley
Of course they're not the same. Christianity taught the Greek Philosophers that "the Logos was made flesh", just as Christianity teaches the Chinese that "the Tao was made flesh". The Greeks could no more come up with the notion that what they understood as the Logos had been incarnated on their own any more than the Chinese could come up with the fact that the Tao had been incarnated on their own. Someone who had witnessed it had to report it to them.
[/quote]



It sounds to me that you have not understand my position. AS I SAID BEFORE, the use of the term Tao can be substituted for "The Word" ( ie In the beginning there was the Tao and the Tao was with God ...etc.). In the same manner one could speak about the "Dharma" of Christ. Fine for communication with far Eastern religions but not exact.

The Tao is not God in Trinity. It is close enough for general understanding but it is not the same. For one thing, the Tao assumes a
Pan-enthiesm. "All is in the Tao and the Tao is in all"... That is NOT the Christian understanding of the Logos, The Trinity, The Father or the Son or the Holy Spirit. It is not a person . 

For you to then claim that all they needed to fill that gap is to be informed that the Tao has incarnated skips over much...to say the least.  God the Father is a person as well, not an amorphous "Force" like in Star Wars.


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« Reply #28 on: September 22, 2008, 11:23:26 AM »

That is NOT the Christian understanding of the Logos, The Trinity, The Father or the Son or the Holy Spirit. It is not a person .
And I think you're missing George's point that the Logos of Greek Philosophy is not a person, either.  Only in Christianity is the Logos personified as the Second Person of the Holy Trinity.
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« Reply #29 on: September 22, 2008, 11:52:30 AM »

That is NOT the Christian understanding of the Logos, The Trinity, The Father or the Son or the Holy Spirit. It is not a person .
And I think you're missing George's point that the Logos of Greek Philosophy is not a person, either.  Only in Christianity is the Logos personified as the Second Person of the Holy Trinity.

Where are we disagreeing?

The Tao is like The Word.

The Tao is understood differently in Taoism than the Logos is in Chrisitianity

Therefore: The term Tao can be substiftued for the Logos to communicate with Far Eastern people . However, it is not exatcly the same thing.
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« Reply #30 on: September 22, 2008, 11:55:00 AM »

That is NOT the Christian understanding of the Logos, The Trinity, The Father or the Son or the Holy Spirit. It is not a person .
And I think you're missing George's point that the Logos of Greek Philosophy is not a person, either.  Only in Christianity is the Logos personified as the Second Person of the Holy Trinity.

Where are we disagreeing?

The Tao is like The Word.

The Tao is understood differently in Taoism than the Logos is in Chrisitianity

Therefore: The term Tao can be substiftued for the Logos to communicate with Far Eastern people . However, it is not exatcly the same thing.

The Logos was understood differently amongst the Greek philosophers than how Logos is understood in Christianity.

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« Reply #31 on: September 22, 2008, 12:10:31 PM »

Where are we disagreeing?

The Tao is like The Word.

The Tao is understood differently in Taoism than the Logos is in Chrisitianity 

The real question is: is the Tao understood in Taoism as the Logos was understood in Greek Philosophy?  If the answer is yes, then the conclusion should be that the Tao can be understood in Christianity just as the Logos is understood in Christianity.  If he answer is no, then the Tao can never be understood in exactly the same way as the Logos.
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« Reply #32 on: September 22, 2008, 12:47:26 PM »

The real question is: is the Tao understood in Taoism as the Logos was understood in Greek Philosophy?  If the answer is yes, then the conclusion should be that the Tao can be understood in Christianity just as the Logos is understood in Christianity.  If he answer is no, then the Tao can never be understood in exactly the same way as the Logos.

According to several years of in-depth research on the subject by Fr Seraphim Rose and his disciple Hieromonk Damascene, the answer is a resounding “Yes!”
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« Reply #33 on: September 22, 2008, 04:03:26 PM »

This is all very interesting.  What is the underlying meaning of the word Tao?  What does it mean linguistically and what does it mean to the Taoists?

The Tao () translates roughly as "The Way" as in "The Way Things Are" or "The Way Things Ought To Be".  The Tao is understood as the "non null" which exists behind all processes in the cosmos, i.e., the Tao is the something (not nothing) in which everything in the Universe exists and operates. It is the Ultimate Reality behind everything, the Reason behind everything and the "Logic" behind everything. Harmony with the Tao and following it (going with the Way) is what everything in the Universe needs to strive towards. This is the understanding of the Logos, hence, the Tao and the Logos describe the same Thing.

And yet.. Taoism and Christianity are not the same. Go figure.



Nor are the Jews Christians.  However, that is not the point.  Christ was a Jew.  This has nothing to do with what modern Jews believe.  The Tao is also became man, regardless of what modern Taoists believe.  Saying Christ is not the Tao because modern Taoists do not believe that he is the saviour is just as incorrect as saying that he is not the saviour because the Jews don't believe that he is.  The Tao became flesh in the person of Jesus Christ, just as the Logos.  To some extent, modern Taoists are no different than modern Jews.  They are still waiting for what has already happened.
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« Reply #34 on: September 22, 2008, 04:46:59 PM »

This is all very interesting.  What is the underlying meaning of the word Tao?  What does it mean linguistically and what does it mean to the Taoists?

The Tao () translates roughly as "The Way" as in "The Way Things Are" or "The Way Things Ought To Be".  The Tao is understood as the "non null" which exists behind all processes in the cosmos, i.e., the Tao is the something (not nothing) in which everything in the Universe exists and operates. It is the Ultimate Reality behind everything, the Reason behind everything and the "Logic" behind everything. Harmony with the Tao and following it (going with the Way) is what everything in the Universe needs to strive towards. This is the understanding of the Logos, hence, the Tao and the Logos describe the same Thing.

And yet.. Taoism and Christianity are not the same. Go figure.



Nor are the Jews Christians.  However, that is not the point.  Christ was a Jew.  This has nothing to do with what modern Jews believe.  The Tao is also became man, regardless of what modern Taoists believe.  Saying Christ is not the Tao because modern Taoists do not believe that he is the saviour is just as incorrect as saying that he is not the saviour because the Jews don't believe that he is.  The Tao became flesh in the person of Jesus Christ, just as the Logos.  To some extent, modern Taoists are no different than modern Jews.  They are still waiting for what has already happened.

Good analogy. Although, East Asian peoples certainly did not receive nearly the amount of revelation as the ancient Jews did. Israel was still the chosen. And I don't think Taoists are waiting for the 道 to become incarnate. And neither were the Greek philosophers for that matter!
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« Reply #35 on: September 23, 2008, 01:15:04 PM »

This is all very interesting.  What is the underlying meaning of the word Tao?  What does it mean linguistically and what does it mean to the Taoists?

The Tao () translates roughly as "The Way" as in "The Way Things Are" or "The Way Things Ought To Be".  The Tao is understood as the "non null" which exists behind all processes in the cosmos, i.e., the Tao is the something (not nothing) in which everything in the Universe exists and operates. It is the Ultimate Reality behind everything, the Reason behind everything and the "Logic" behind everything. Harmony with the Tao and following it (going with the Way) is what everything in the Universe needs to strive towards. This is the understanding of the Logos, hence, the Tao and the Logos describe the same Thing.

And yet.. Taoism and Christianity are not the same. Go figure.



Nor are the Jews Christians.  However, that is not the point.  Christ was a Jew.  This has nothing to do with what modern Jews believe.  The Tao is also became man, regardless of what modern Taoists believe.  Saying Christ is not the Tao because modern Taoists do not believe that he is the saviour is just as incorrect as saying that he is not the saviour because the Jews don't believe that he is.  The Tao became flesh in the person of Jesus Christ, just as the Logos.  To some extent, modern Taoists are no different than modern Jews.  They are still waiting for what has already happened.

Good analogy. Although, East Asian peoples certainly did not receive nearly the amount of revelation as the ancient Jews did. Israel was still the chosen. And I don't think Taoists are waiting for the 道 to become incarnate. And neither were the Greek philosophers for that matter!

I agree that the modern Taoist are not waiting for a Messiah like the Jews.  However, I was pretty sure that early (pre-Christian) Taoist writings indicated that the Tao would one day take human form so that it could reveal itself more completely.  Perhaps I am mistaking this from reading works by early Taoist converts to Christianity (Jesus Sutras).  Perhaps the Chinese Taoists enlightened by Christianity understood the Tao in retrospect, much like the Greeks and Hebrews enlightened by Christianity understood the Logos better in retrospect.  Those who were not enlightened (not converted to Christianity and receiving the Holy Spirit) would still understand the imperfect rendition of the Tao / Logos.  It has been a while since I have studied this subject.
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« Reply #36 on: September 23, 2008, 08:16:45 PM »

This is all very interesting.  What is the underlying meaning of the word Tao?  What does it mean linguistically and what does it mean to the Taoists?

The Tao () translates roughly as "The Way" as in "The Way Things Are" or "The Way Things Ought To Be".  The Tao is understood as the "non null" which exists behind all processes in the cosmos, i.e., the Tao is the something (not nothing) in which everything in the Universe exists and operates. It is the Ultimate Reality behind everything, the Reason behind everything and the "Logic" behind everything. Harmony with the Tao and following it (going with the Way) is what everything in the Universe needs to strive towards. This is the understanding of the Logos, hence, the Tao and the Logos describe the same Thing.

And yet.. Taoism and Christianity are not the same. Go figure.



Nor are the Jews Christians.  However, that is not the point.  Christ was a Jew.  This has nothing to do with what modern Jews believe.  The Tao is also became man, regardless of what modern Taoists believe.  Saying Christ is not the Tao because modern Taoists do not believe that he is the saviour is just as incorrect as saying that he is not the saviour because the Jews don't believe that he is.  The Tao became flesh in the person of Jesus Christ, just as the Logos.  To some extent, modern Taoists are no different than modern Jews.  They are still waiting for what has already happened.

Good analogy. Although, East Asian peoples certainly did not receive nearly the amount of revelation as the ancient Jews did. Israel was still the chosen. And I don't think Taoists are waiting for the 道 to become incarnate. And neither were the Greek philosophers for that matter!

I agree that the modern Taoist are not waiting for a Messiah like the Jews.  However, I was pretty sure that early (pre-Christian) Taoist writings indicated that the Tao would one day take human form so that it could reveal itself more completely.  Perhaps I am mistaking this from reading works by early Taoist converts to Christianity (Jesus Sutras).  Perhaps the Chinese Taoists enlightened by Christianity understood the Tao in retrospect, much like the Greeks and Hebrews enlightened by Christianity understood the Logos better in retrospect.  Those who were not enlightened (not converted to Christianity and receiving the Holy Spirit) would still understand the imperfect rendition of the Tao / Logos.  It has been a while since I have studied this subject.

If I am not mistaken, in Judaism and Christianity the God is not an "It".

Also, I dont undersand this statement:

  "Christ was a Jew.  This has nothing to do with what modern Jews believe."

Really? How so?

Thanks
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« Reply #37 on: September 24, 2008, 04:19:13 PM »

Also, I dont undersand this statement:

  "Christ was a Jew.  This has nothing to do with what modern Jews believe."

Really? How so?

Most Jews today do not believe in Jesus.
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« Reply #38 on: September 24, 2008, 10:52:43 PM »

Also, I dont undersand this statement:

  "Christ was a Jew.  This has nothing to do with what modern Jews believe."

Really? How so?

Most Jews today do not believe in Jesus.

    Not believing that he is the Christ doesnt make you less Jewish. Would you say Paul was not a Jew? He believed in Christ.  Once you believe that Jesus is the Christ, do you stop being a Jew?   I think not.
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« Reply #39 on: September 24, 2008, 11:05:54 PM »

Marc,

How does this:
Most Jews today do not believe in Jesus.

proceed to this:
Quote
    Not believing that he is the Christ doesnt make you less Jewish. Would you say Paul was not a Jew? He believed in Christ.  Once you believe that Jesus is the Christ, do you stop being a Jew?   I think not.
Huh  Logically, this strikes me as a non sequitur.
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« Reply #40 on: September 25, 2008, 10:45:59 AM »

Also, I dont undersand this statement:

  "Christ was a Jew.  This has nothing to do with what modern Jews believe."

Really? How so?

Most Jews today do not believe in Jesus.

    Not believing that he is the Christ doesnt make you less Jewish. Would you say Paul was not a Jew? He believed in Christ.  Once you believe that Jesus is the Christ, do you stop being a Jew?   I think not.

I disagree.  Once you believe in Jesus as the Christ, you are a Christian.  If you were Hebrew before, that of course does not change any more than being Irish or German.  When I refer to "Jew" on this forum, I am referring to the religion and not the race.  I do not believe in hyphenated Christianity.  There is no such thing as a Buddist Christian, or a Moslem Christian, or a Pagan Christian.  There is also no such thing as a Jewish Christian.  There are Christians that were formerly Jews (Paul), and there are Christians that are of Hebrew culture and race (Paul and all of the Apostles and many more since). 
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« Reply #41 on: September 25, 2008, 03:20:26 PM »

Marc,

How does this:
Most Jews today do not believe in Jesus.

proceed to this:
Quote
    Not believing that he is the Christ doesnt make you less Jewish. Would you say Paul was not a Jew? He believed in Christ.  Once you believe that Jesus is the Christ, do you stop being a Jew?   I think not.



Huh  Logically, this strikes me as a non sequitur.


Let me try to be a bit clearer. Jesus was a Jew, and an observant one by all accounts. So the claim that he is a different type of Jew than those Jews who came later is untrue in my opinion.

Now, let move on to the example of Paul. His identity as a Jew did not change after he took faith in Christ. Therefore, if you are a Jew, your acceptance of Jesus as the Messiah ( "Messiah" being a Jewish concept to begin with) or your denial of Jesus being the Messiah does not alter your Jewishness. You are just taking a side on a point of doctrine and history albiet the most important point from a Christian perspective. But you remain a Jew as did Paul and all the other Apostles. As you know, they continued to attend Synagouge.

Finally, to get back to the topic, I have some suspicion that doing such things as altering Jesus in an Icon to make him Chinese ( ie, not Jewish)   is not only motivated by making Chinese people relate better, but may also indicate having a more fundemental problem with Jesus being a Jew.
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« Reply #42 on: September 25, 2008, 04:33:23 PM »

Jesus was a Jew, and an observant one by all accounts.

"Observant" by "all" accounts? Not in my copy of the Gospel He isn't.

He broke the Sabbath. (Matthew 12)
He spoke with Samaritans . (John 4:9)
He had women disciples. (Mark 15:41)
He touched the dead. (Luke 7:14)
He allowed His disciples to eat without washing their hands. (Matthew 15:2)
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« Reply #43 on: September 25, 2008, 07:37:44 PM »

Quote
His identity as a Jew did not change after he took faith in Christ.

Did not Apostle Paul successfully argue against the Judaisers, who were supported by Apostle Peter, that it was no longer necessary to be circumcised, as baptism superseded circumcision, in the same way that Christ was the completion and fulfilment of the Mosaic Law?
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« Reply #44 on: September 25, 2008, 08:59:58 PM »

Jesus was a Jew, and an observant one by all accounts.

"Observant" by "all" accounts? Not in my copy of the Gospel He isn't.

He broke the Sabbath. (Matthew 12)
He spoke with Samaritans . (John 4:9)
He had women disciples. (Mark 15:41)
He touched the dead. (Luke 7:14)
He allowed His disciples to eat without washing their hands. (Matthew 15:2)


You're kidding, right?

You may have noticed his preaching in both the synagogue and the Temple in Jerusalem. He was obviously in good standing both places. No one called to read the Torah in the Synagogue can be anything but in good standing.

 His preaching was strongly influenced by Pharisee religous philosphy. He was clearly within their intellectual milieu. He was somewhat anti-Rabbinical Judaism (healing on the Sabbath etc) and can be seen as being similar to Karaite Jews............look it up. 

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