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Author Topic: The Canonical Declaration of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (Kyiv Patriarchate)  (Read 17813 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #135 on: September 26, 2008, 03:29:51 PM »



I apologize if my comments came across as angry.

It's just that I love the country of my ancestors and at some point (and I always agreed that today, is NOT the day for it) I would love for Ukraine to have its own church.

However, I don't disklike any other Orthodox church. 

I honestly wish we could all simply be ONE, with various languages used so people can pray in their own language.

Like I mentioned earlier, during Great Lent, the Orthodox in our metropolitan area publish a schedule and hold Sunday Vespers at a different church each week.  I got goosebumps seeing so many people get together to pray.  People from various jurisdictions and various countries.  "Our Father" was said mostly in English, however, you could hear the other languages being uttered as well.  There were people with different colored skin, and different shaped eyes.  It didn't matter.  We all hugged, we all trusted each other...because we were all there for one common cause.

There were dozens of priests, monks and nuns...and hundreds of laypeople.

It was amazing.  Truly!

It underscored that we are ONE...yet no ONE is better then the other.  All are equal.

That's all that's trying to get stressed here.  Equality.

Again, I apologize if my words distressed anyone.  That was not my intent.  I certainly am no scholar and I can't begin to provide quotes and notes like the rest of you.  I am amazed at your degree of knowledge in all these matters.

I am a simple person who simply wants to serve Christ...  (and would like people to respect Ukraine  Wink )

Please forgive me for offending anyone.

PS. 
Comment:  The problem is you are so blinded by hatred and distrust you cannot comprehend what you are reading or fail to admit the meaning of the words.

Reply: I am NOT blinded by hatred nor distrust.  If you knew me, you would realize that I "trust" to a fault... and I can honestly say I don't "hate" anyone....  I just love some, more then others.   Wink
...and I did NOT deserve that comment.   You ask for my opinion and then you shoot me down as some hater.   This is why it took me a long time to muster the courage to even write on this forum.  I think I should cease and desist....because it's not doing me any good...and God forbid I should hurt someone else with my comments.

May God protect us ALL, and keep us safe, as the devil tries to tear us apart.

Peace to all.

Please...no hard feelings.

Everyones invited for dinner!



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« Reply #136 on: September 26, 2008, 04:06:39 PM »

AMEN!  We have gotten so far off the original purpose of his thread which was to try and justify the UOC-KP.  What we got in response are historical opinions that are questionable depending on who you talk to.  As I said before start a ukrainian history thread.

I suggest that the thread become a sticky because the polemics here have reached the same levels as OO/EO discussion, anything pertaining to homosexuality and other "hot" topics on the forum.   Cool 

I'm not sure if that justifies making it a "sticky."  And yes, could everyone please try to stay on topic.  Thank you.  Pravoslavbob, Religious topics moderator.
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« Reply #137 on: September 26, 2008, 04:07:38 PM »

AMEN!  We have gotten so far off the original purpose of his thread which was to try and justify the UOC-KP.  What we got in response are historical opinions that are questionable depending on who you talk to.  As I said before start a ukrainian history thread.

I suggest that the thread become a sticky because the polemics here have reached the same levels as OO/EO discussion, anything pertaining to homosexuality and other "hot" topics on the forum.   Cool 
Nah!  Let's just wait until this thread reaches 1000 posts.  Then we'll think about making it a sticky. Wink
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« Reply #138 on: September 26, 2008, 04:41:57 PM »

Nah!  Let's just wait until this thread reaches 1000 posts.  Then we'll think about making it a sticky. Wink

Seems like every other post is Ukraine this and Ukraine that - maybe the total posts have soared over 1000?   Shocked
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« Reply #139 on: September 26, 2008, 05:40:55 PM »

Quote:"Reply: I am NOT blinded by hatred nor distrust.  If you knew me, you would realize that I "trust" to a fault... and I can honestly say I don't "hate" anyone....  I just love some, more then others.   
(1)...and I did NOT deserve that comment.   You ask for my opinion and then you shoot me down as some hater.    This is why it took me a long time to muster the courage to even write on this forum.  I think I should cease and desist....because it's not doing me any good...and God forbid I should hurt someone else with my comments.

May God protect us ALL, and keep us safe, as the devil tries to tear us apart.

Peace to all.

Please...no hard feelings.

(2)  Everyones invited for dinner!"

Replies:  (1)  You are right you did not deserve that comment. And I publically apologize. It's just that we are talking past each other because the topic is about the canonical status of a self proclaimed church and its leader.  I get frustrated because the anwers received have nothing to do with the canons or administrative functions of the church or creating a new autocephalous entity or schisms within the church. It has everything to do about  politics or ethnic rivalery.  Its like talking about apples and getting oranges as replies. 

Politics makes strange bed fellows and creates vices in every country.  Coming from a Carpatho-Rusyn (Lemko) background my people who live in Ukraine are having the same problems you complain about the Russians.  Seems they are being told the same things you accuse the Russians of.  The Ukrainians refuse to recognize them as a distinct people with their own separate language, culture, and identity. They are being told they are Ukrainian.  But this fact is not being used to justify non-canonical entities or schisms within the church.  Religion and politics should be separte and distinct issues.


(2)  Only if you promise to service home made pierogi's (Vareneki)!

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« Reply #140 on: September 26, 2008, 06:07:37 PM »


You got it!
..with sour cream!
 Cheesy

Sorry for giving you oranges when you asked for apples.  It's been one of those days...  I've been irritated all day and took it out on you.

Glad there's no hard feelings. 

I'm serving potato varenyki with lots of onions and then more Varenyki with cherries and sweet cheese for dessert.
...and no leftovers, since tomorrow is a "Fasting" day (Exaltation of the Holy Cross - I never understood why you had to "fast" on a "feast" day!)

Smachnoho!





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« Reply #141 on: September 26, 2008, 06:11:09 PM »

Smiley


Comment:  While I would die for Orthodoxy, I simply cannot fathom having to bow down to Moscow.  To go to Moscow for my faith, gives me goosebumps.

Reply:  That's just the point.  You don't have to go to Moscow for your faith.  Didn't you read the articles contained in the Tomos of Automony?  The problem is you are so blinded by hatred and distrust you cannot comprehend what you are reading or fail to admit the meaning of the words.
Or, she could listen to what many bishops and priests (and laity) of that "Ukrainian" Church are actually saying. I do have a feeling that UOC is getting better, and certainly as a leader, Met. Vladimir looks much better than Filaret. Nevertheless, there is plenty of reasons to consider UOC-MP a "Moscow church"

Comment: Given time....of course.  Let the national politics simmer down.  Stability will come.

Why not in the future?  Why is everyone so dead set against it?

Reply:  Which is what we have been saying all along!

Comment:  Why would a Ukrainian church bring ruin to Orthodoxy?  WHy would you even say such a thing?

Reply;  Where has it indicated that everyone is dead set against an eventual autocephalous Ukrainian Orthodox Church?  All that has been stated that the time is not ripe.  Which you seem to agree with by some of your comments made above.
Well, that's sort of a default position. There are two problems with it: 1) Coming from Moscow, "later" does sound like "never" 2) Meanwhile, lots of people are without sacraments.
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« Reply #142 on: September 26, 2008, 06:12:37 PM »

since tomorrow is a "Fasting" day (Exaltation of the Holy Cross - I never understood why you had to "fast" on a "feast" day!)

Same reason one fasts on Good Friday for the Elevation of the Holy Cross also commemorates the Crucifixion of Christ.
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« Reply #143 on: September 26, 2008, 06:27:30 PM »

...ahh.  I never thought of it that way.
Thanks for the clarification.

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« Reply #144 on: September 26, 2008, 06:32:46 PM »

^ You're welcome.   Smiley
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« Reply #145 on: September 27, 2008, 01:38:22 AM »

...Perhaps, but in wasn't necessarily a smooth transition. ...

Who said it was?


Let's start from the beginning: define "Mother".

That would be easy, once you define: "beginning".


Cute. So bribing a brother hierarch is OK then, as long as it's for territory not ordination?

Huh?

You, yourself laid accusation for simonia, and called some IIRC (I have no clue who/what is/was IIRC). See:

...This is not a matter of opinion btw: IIRC said Patriarch was deposed the next year for simony, ant the transaction reversed by Synod. ...

Don't drag me into right/wrong, God gave you reason to do it for yourself. I just proved how ridiculous and pathetic such accusations are.


So the MP is not really a successor of the Kyiv Metropolia? Thank you! I keep hearing this argument all the time.

No, MP Alexey II is successor of bishops who appointed (hirotonied) him, all the way back to the Apostoles, and not of a See.

Apostolic succession of Kiev bishops died out during the first half of 17th century, when they all adhered to Unia, so Peter Sagaydachni had to organize uprizing and bring Patriarchs of Antioch and Jerusalem to conduct hirotonia of Orthodox bishops.

So Moscow does have much more claim to Kiev throught successorship of her bishops than any Ukrainian-lined bishop.

BTW, the fact that you didn't bother to respond to my suspicion that you aren't Orthodox than are in communion with the Pope of Rome speak volumes. See ya.
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« Reply #146 on: September 27, 2008, 01:42:11 AM »

...

While I would die for Orthodoxy, I simply cannot fathom having to bow down to Moscow.  To go to Moscow for my faith, gives me goosebumps.

Since when there is requirement in Orthodoxy to bow (not to mention bow down) to anyone on Earth?
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« Reply #147 on: September 27, 2008, 01:54:03 AM »


BTW, the fact that you didn't bother to respond to my suspicion that you aren't Orthodox than are in communion with the Pope of Rome speak volumes. See ya.
That's the thing that apparently eludes you: you don't have authority over anyone on this board. So one is free to respond or not to respond to your accusations. BTW, said accusations are, by definition, irrlelevant ad hominem attacks: I'm not the topic of this conversation. Here, have a freebie: while I respect the Pope and his jurisdiction, I am not in communion with him. I think that universal direct jurisdiction is a false teaching. Happy now?
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« Reply #148 on: September 27, 2008, 02:03:20 AM »




Cute. So bribing a brother hierarch is OK then, as long as it's for territory not ordination?

Huh?

You, yourself laid accusation for simonia, and called some IIRC (I have no clue who/what is/was IIRC). See:

...This is not a matter of opinion btw: IIRC said Patriarch was deposed the next year for simony, ant the transaction reversed by Synod. ...

The fact that you don't know what IIRC mean actually is to your credit: it means that you waste less time on the Internet that I do. "IIRC" is just a chatroom shorthand for "if I recall correctly". As to the "simony" thing: your nitpicking does not change anything. Whether it's technically correct to call any bribery in Church "simony" (I don't see why not), it is WRONG. You remind me of people that are OUTRAGED when the Holodomor is called "genocyde" since, you see, mass murdering people because of their occupation is much less morally repugnant then murdering them because of their nationality.
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« Reply #149 on: September 27, 2008, 02:04:46 AM »

...BTW, said accusations are, by definition, irrlelevant ad hominem attacks: ...

There was nothing ad hominem in my suspicious. See:


Who is supposed to be Mother of imagined Orthodox Church of Ukraine?

I don't think it's the matter of dogma, but in my opinion, it should be Constantinople.

Typical Roman Catholic view of ecclessiology....

It was addressed to your papocentric ecclessiology.

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« Reply #150 on: September 27, 2008, 02:08:23 AM »

You remind me of people that are OUTRAGED when the Holodomor is called "genocyde" since,

Don't change the subject. Holodomor is being debated right now on at least one separate thread. http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,17614.0.html

The subject of this thread is impossible claim that a bunch of ... something, called "Kiev Patriarchate" is able to produce anything canonical.
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« Reply #151 on: September 27, 2008, 02:21:41 AM »

...

No, MP Alexey II is successor of bishops who appointed (hirotonied) him, all the way back to the Apostoles, and not of a See.

Apostolic succession of Kiev bishops died out during the first half of 17th century, when they all adhered to Unia, so Peter Sagaydachni had to organize uprizing and bring Patriarchs of Antioch and Jerusalem to conduct hirotonia of Orthodox bishops.

So Moscow does have much more claim to Kiev throught successorship of her bishops than any Ukrainian-lined bishop.


...

I just wanted to emphasize what I wrote and nobody responded, and will not respond.
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« Reply #152 on: September 27, 2008, 03:50:31 AM »

...

No, MP Alexey II is successor of bishops who appointed (hirotonied) him, all the way back to the Apostoles, and not of a See.

Apostolic succession of Kiev bishops died out during the first half of 17th century, when they all adhered to Unia, so Peter Sagaydachni had to organize uprizing and bring Patriarchs of Antioch and Jerusalem to conduct hirotonia of Orthodox bishops.

So Moscow does have much more claim to Kiev throught successorship of her bishops than any Ukrainian-lined bishop.


...

I just wanted to emphasize what I wrote and nobody responded, and will not respond.
So jurisdictional authority over a diocese passes along the succession lines through ordination? I mean, are you seriously saying that?
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« Reply #153 on: September 28, 2008, 05:22:34 PM »

...
Edited to remove offensive epithets  -PtA

This edit is butchery of reasoned discussion.

There was no more proper term - Roman Catholic was not what I meant, for not only not all Catholics are Roman - there are Eastern and Oriantal ones - but also there are some other grups who are not in communion with the Roman Pope whom hold such ecclessiology.

And I didn't intend to be offensive, or derrogatory. If I wanted I would know how to do it in another fashion.


:mad :mad :mad
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« Reply #154 on: September 29, 2008, 05:46:59 AM »

...
Edited to remove offensive epithets  -PtA

This edit is butchery of reasoned discussion.

There was no more proper term - Roman Catholic was not what I meant, for not only not all Catholics are Roman - there are Eastern and Oriantal ones - but also there are some other grups who are not in communion with the Roman Pope whom hold such ecclessiology.

And I didn't intend to be offensive, or derrogatory. If I wanted I would know how to do it in another fashion.

Since when has referring to Roman Catholics as "Papists" been considered a part of "reasoned discussion"?
Perhaps you didn't intend to be offensive or derogatory, but the term "Papist" is both offensive and derogatory.
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« Reply #155 on: October 27, 2008, 11:35:42 PM »

I don't understand these small nationalist churches that break communion just to be independent from a patriarch. It's all about politics, nothing to do with theology. I do agree that Ukraine should have it's own patriarch, since they are a separate country from Russia, but why break communion out of something like this?
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« Reply #156 on: October 28, 2008, 09:37:21 AM »

I don't understand these small nationalist churches that break communion just to be independent from a patriarch. It's all about politics, nothing to do with theology. I do agree that Ukraine should have it's own patriarch, since they are a separate country from Russia, but why break communion out of something like this?

They did not intend to break communion, they were forced into breaking because nobody wants to mess with the MP. The Russian Orthodox Church, BTW, had the same history - they were regarded as un-canonical for something like 160 years. When they grew powerful, they became canonical. It is as simple as that. It really is ALL about politics.
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« Reply #157 on: October 28, 2008, 04:23:31 PM »

Yes, that's how the Church of Greece began too. So are saying that will probably be the case for Ukraine?
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« Reply #158 on: October 28, 2008, 04:26:42 PM »

Yes, that's how the Church of Greece began too. So are saying that will probably be the case for Ukraine?

Yes. I am positive. There will be one canonical autocephalous Ukrainian Orthodox Church, with the throne of Her Prelate being in Kyiv.
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« Reply #159 on: October 28, 2008, 04:35:41 PM »


Дай Боже!

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« Reply #160 on: May 23, 2009, 02:06:30 PM »

...
So, the relationship with the Russian Orthodox Church is clearly given a special place.

I'm appalled you don't differ autonomy from autocephalia.

Of course the relationship with MP are "special", autonomy is part of her Mother. She isn't autocephalous.

That's what actually bothers many Ukrainian Orthodox. Why is Moscow "mother?"

Yes, that is the irony of the Ukraine-Russia issue.  On the one hand, the Church services etc. refer to Kiev as "Mother of Russia/Russian cities", but Russia is refered to as "Mother Church."

A full answer would be political, but just in brief, the origin in the irony is that St. Jonah, the first autocephalous head of the Russian Church was actually the Metropolitan of Kiev (he replaced the apostate Greek Isodore of Kiev, later Cardinal Isodore.  He later switched to the Latin rite and became Latin EP and Archbishop of Cyprus as well), as was St. Job, the last Metropolitan of Kiev and All Rus and the first Patriarch of Moscow and All Rus.  Constantinople, then under the Vatican, organized a successor to Met. Isodore, Gregory the Bulgarian, and that line got involved with the "Union" forced by the Polish crown.  At the time that St. Job was elevated, Kiev was detached from, later reunited to, Moscow (at the time of the elevatio it wasn't within the Kingdom of Russia, but the Kingdom of Poland within the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.  Not a minor detail: the Tomos that the EP and his synod gave to Poland, a part of the Patriarchate of Moscow, states in pertinent part:
Quote
bowing before the demands of canonical obligations, which impose upon our Holy Ecumenical See concern for Orthodox Churches, who are in need; considering also the fact, which is not contradicted by history (for it is recorded that the first separation from our See of the Kyivan Metropolia and the Orthodox Metropolia of Lithuania and Poland, dependent upon it, as well as their incorporation within the Holy Moscovite Church was accomplished contrary to canon law, as also all that which was agreed upon regarding the full church autonomy of the Kyivan Metropolitan, who at the time had the title Exarch of the Ecumenical See), We and our Holy Metropolitans, Our beloved brothers and co-workers in the Holy Spirit, considered it our obligation to give ear to the request presented to Us by the Holy Orthodox Church in Poland and to give Our blessing and approval to its autocephalous and independent administration
which Ukrainians who have taken autocephaly use as a basis for canonical cover for what they have done.
http://www.ukrainianorthodoxchurchinexile.org/1924_tomos_of_autocephaly.html

which has other repecusions: if Cyprus next month puts its stamp of approval on the EP's take on canon 28 and the canonical situation of North America, a pertinent part being the claim that North America doesn't fall within the boundaries of the Patriarchate of Moscow when it was created, the problem would arise that neither was Ukraine included within those boundaries, and would thus be technically "diaspora."  With the EP's interpretation of canon 28, he would be free make a deal with the Ukrainian government of Yushchenko, as was done in Poland (the 1924 EP tomos refers to "the God-Protected Polish State"), and to do as was done in North America, including using the secular courts in the attempt to take over Churches that don't agree.  That he is discussing with the Ukrainian President, and NOT with the canonical (even according to the EP) Ukrainian Primate, over opening a metochion, an ECCLESIASTICAL institution that requires the cession of territory by the canonical primate not the secular authorities, on the eve of the Cyprus meeting should give the Patriarch of Mosocw all the warning he needs (as if he needed any) that the agenda does not only involve the OCA.

And if the question is raised, "What does this have to do with the OP 'The Canonical Declaration of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (Kyiv Patriarchate)'," the document linked in the OP explicitely refers to the official acts of the EP (e.g. the Tomos to Poland above), explicitely refers to the words of the present EP Bartholomew (e.g. the reprimand of Met. Volodymyr of Kiev-MP, ironicly in an affirmation of Moscow's jurisdiction, an the claims of the jursidcition of the EP over "unity"), explicitely refers to the preparations for the All Orthodox Council by the All Orthodox Assembly (meeting next month in Cyprus), explicitely refers to certain acts signed by the Ukrainians explicitely in the presence of the EP having him (i.e. not Pat. Kyrill) for the ordering of the Ukraine's Church, etc., as the canonical basis of its autocephaly).

In other words, the primate of Kiev, which is in Ukraine, was made Patriarch of the Kingdom of Russia.  To this day, the Patriarch of Moscow is enthroned by the Met. of Kiev giving him the staff of St. Peter, who moved the see of Kiev to Moscow (sort of like how the Patriarch of Antioch is now in Damascus).  Met. Volodymyr said while handing it over
Quote
'Your Holiness! On behalf of the Local Council, which elected you, I solemnly hand you the staff of the Primates of Moscow on this joyous day when our Church got the sixteenth Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia.


'This staff belonged to Metropolitan Peter of Kiev and Moscow, the miracle-worker, who transferred the primatial see to Moscow. We hope that you will continue the ministry of the holy Primates of Moscow who worked tirelessly to build and order the Church of Christ, who consolidated the unity of Holy Russia, which by God's Providence has begun its life in the holy baptismal font of Kiev. We promise to help Your Holiness in this sacred cause
...
http://www.mospat.ru/index.php?page=44058
with pictures of the handing off.


The situation, btw, is not dissimilar from how Old Rome felt about New Rome.


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« Reply #161 on: May 23, 2009, 02:27:42 PM »


It is very strange, for a hierarch fleunt in both languages, to refuse to address a priest in Ukrainian, in a Kyivan Cathedral. Not only did he refuse to speak Ukrainian, he told the priest to speak only Russian. And yet shortly thereafter he refused to resign from the episcopacy and created a schism in the Church of God. How pleasant.

Was the visiting priest, by any chance, a Canadian Ukrainian? I am asking because we, "Ukrainian Ukrainians," sometimes have trouble understanding the Ukrainian language of those who have lived in North America in several generations, especially if those people's ancestors are from Halychyna (the extreme West and Southwest of Ukraine).

If it was the dialect of Ukrainian, how would Russian be better?

Not that I believe that this was the problem, but if he spoke Russian, it would no doubt be standard Russian which the Met. of course also spoke.  Yes, a dialect of Russian would be no better. I don't know, but maybe Heorhij or yourself can comment further on speaking surzhyk
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surzhyk
and comprehensibility.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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