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Author Topic: The Canonical Declaration of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (Kyiv Patriarchate)  (Read 17997 times) Average Rating: 0
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Stanislav
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« Reply #90 on: September 25, 2008, 03:29:42 PM »


Listen, pal, you might fool someone to be an Orthodox Priest, but I'm not among these. You feature fundamental misunderstanding of the term "Mother" and are confusing it with geography.

So, spare me a trouble and don't address your stupidities to me - I'm debating with Heorhij, Stanislav and my sister Lisa. You are free to support them, but don't quote me, don't address me, avoid me in a wide circle.
This is one thing that always amazes me. What makes people think they can boss around people on Internet boards? Is it arrogance?
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« Reply #91 on: September 25, 2008, 03:32:26 PM »

...

So why don't you demonstrate your superior wisdom and dazzle us with the truth you obviously possess? How DID Moscow gain jurisdiction over Kyiv? I usually hear that "Kyiv Metropolitan moved to Vladimir then Moscow" - but that would make say St. Petro Mohyla an uncanonical bishop, which is clearly not the case.

Why do you think that would make St. Peter Mogila an uncanonical bishop? Explain it.

...It might take centuries, it might happen tomorrow - and not necessarily (although not unlikely) from Moscow.

Necessarily from Moscow. Even the Ecumenical Council can't grant you autocephalia in opposition to Moscow.

Though, you might estabish yet another "Orthodox-Catholic-Pan-Paflagonian" church that no Orthodox would recognize.
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« Reply #92 on: September 25, 2008, 03:33:55 PM »


Listen, pal, you might fool someone to be an Orthodox Priest, but I'm not among these. You feature fundamental misunderstanding of the term "Mother" and are confusing it with geography.

So, spare me a trouble and don't address your stupidities to me - I'm debating with Heorhij, Stanislav and my sister Lisa. You are free to support them, but don't quote me, don't address me, avoid me in a wide circle.
This is one thing that always amazes me. What makes people think they can boss around people on Internet boards? Is it arrogance?

Perhaps.

Perhaps I just retain the right not to debate with fakes.
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Stanislav
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« Reply #93 on: September 25, 2008, 03:35:10 PM »


See of Jerusalem is the oldest one, yet it was part of Antioch until it gained autocephalia at Ecumenical Council.

Who is the Mother of whom, again?
Did you actually hear anyone refer to Antioch as "Mother" of Jerusalem? I sure didn't. On the other hand, I heard Jerusalem called "Mother" of all other Churches, since, well, it is the oldest one, and all the Apostles were part of that Church before leaving to preach.

Question: did MP become Mother of Georgian Church when they merged? Is Moscow now Georgia's Mother?
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« Reply #94 on: September 25, 2008, 03:41:11 PM »

 Wink
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« Reply #95 on: September 25, 2008, 03:42:27 PM »

...

So why don't you demonstrate your superior wisdom and dazzle us with the truth you obviously possess? How DID Moscow gain jurisdiction over Kyiv? I usually hear that "Kyiv Metropolitan moved to Vladimir then Moscow" - but that would make say St. Petro Mohyla an uncanonical bishop, which is clearly not the case.

Why do you think that would make St. Peter Mogila an uncanonical bishop? Explain it.
Since, well, he was the Metropolitan of Kyiv - but not under Moscow, but rather under Constantinople. If we believe the theory that the See of Kyiv was transferred to Moscow - St. Peter can not be a real Bishop of Kyiv, can he?

...It might take centuries, it might happen tomorrow - and not necessarily (although not unlikely) from Moscow.

Necessarily from Moscow. Even the Ecumenical Council can't grant you autocephalia in opposition to Moscow.
That's just one interpretation of Canons... although so far it seems likely that Moscow will be involved in some way.

Though, you might estabish yet another "Orthodox-Catholic-Pan-Paflagonian" church that no Orthodox would recognize.
Thanks, but we already have several.
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« Reply #96 on: September 25, 2008, 03:46:58 PM »

...
If we believe the theory that the See of Kyiv was transferred to Moscow - St. Peter can not be a real Bishop of Kyiv, can he?
...

Following that logic, St. Gregory Palamas wasn't real bishop of Thessanolika, was he?
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« Reply #97 on: September 25, 2008, 03:47:45 PM »

...

Question: did MP become Mother of Georgian Church when they merged? Is Moscow now Georgia's Mother?

Can you have two mothers?
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« Reply #98 on: September 25, 2008, 03:50:34 PM »

...
Did you actually hear anyone refer to Antioch as "Mother" of Jerusalem? I sure didn't.
Since when are you the measure of Canonicity, Orthodoxy and knowledge?

On the other hand, I heard Jerusalem called "Mother" of all other Churches, since, well, it is the oldest one, and all the Apostles were part of that Church before leaving to preach.

Me too.

Question:

Who do you think would be Mother of supposed autocephalous Church of Ukraine?
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« Reply #99 on: September 25, 2008, 03:54:03 PM »

...
If we believe the theory that the See of Kyiv was transferred to Moscow - St. Peter can not be a real Bishop of Kyiv, can he?
...

Following that logic, St. Gregory Palamas wasn't real bishop of Thessanolika, was he?
See of Thessalonika was transferred somewhere?
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« Reply #100 on: September 25, 2008, 04:25:05 PM »

...
See of Thessalonika was transferred somewhere?

I'd be much obliged to teach you about that, once you have answered:

Who is supposed to be Mother of imagined Orthodox Church of Ukraine?

I'm asking this for the third time.
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« Reply #101 on: September 25, 2008, 04:50:33 PM »

...
See of Thessalonika was transferred somewhere?

I'd be much obliged to teach you about that, once you have answered:

Who is supposed to be Mother of imagined Orthodox Church of Ukraine?

I'm asking this for the third time.

The mother of the Orthodox Patriarchate of RUS (Russia & Ukraine) is the EP.  Who obviously, along with the rest of worldwide Orthodoxy see it as the same church.

Once again, if you want to talk about Ukrainian history start another thread.  Ukrainian history real or preceived does not justify the creation of either self proclaimed churches.  You all contradict yourselves constantly when you all agree Filaret is a sham but then go and try and defend what he did which was to create divisions within Orthodoxy for his own glory.

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Fr Alexander.  Where is your church and what jurisdiction are you under?  Are you the same Fr Alexander that is a moderator in the Byzantine Catholic Forum?
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« Reply #102 on: September 25, 2008, 04:57:01 PM »

...
See of Thessalonika was transferred somewhere?

I'd be much obliged to teach you about that, once you have answered:

Who is supposed to be Mother of imagined Orthodox Church of Ukraine?

I'm asking this for the third time.

The mother of the Orthodox Patriarchate of RUS (Russia & Ukraine) is the EP.  Who obviously, along with the rest of worldwide Orthodoxy see it as the same church.

Once again, if you want to talk about Ukrainian history start another thread.  Ukrainian history real or preceived does not justify the creation of either self proclaimed churches.  You all contradict yourselves constantly when you all agree Filaret is a sham but then go and try and defend what he did which was to create divisions within Orthodoxy for his own glory.

Orthodoc

Fr Alexander.  Where is your church and what jurisdiction are you under?  Are you the same Fr Alexander that is a moderator in the Byzantine Catholic Forum?

He's a participant in the American Orthodox Catholic Church, a vagante and non-canonical group.
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« Reply #103 on: September 25, 2008, 05:20:28 PM »

Once again, if you want to talk about Ukrainian history start another thread.  Ukrainian history real or preceived does not justify the creation of either self proclaimed churches.  You all contradict yourselves constantly when you all agree Filaret is a sham but then go and try and defend what he did which was to create divisions within Orthodoxy for his own glory.
I defend the people who followed him. I thought it's quite clear. They are in a real spiritual trouble, due to the divisions you alluded to, created by Filaret, Synod of Moscow, politicians on Russian side, politicians on Ukrainian side etc.

Besides, I'm not sure Filaret is bigger sham than some Russian bishops. Should we depose every bishop suspected of dealing with the KGB? Nevertheless,  I agree he should retire, regardless of if he thinks he was mistreated by the MP or not, just for the greater good of his flock, Ukraine, Ukrainian Church, Russian Church and World Orthodoxy. But he'd too selfish I guess
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« Reply #104 on: September 25, 2008, 05:24:04 PM »


Who is supposed to be Mother of imagined Orthodox Church of Ukraine?

I don't think it's the matter of dogma, but in my opinion, it should be Constantinople.

Now I patiently wait for your superior wisdom. So far, you called a bunch of people "immature" and "lacking of understanding" and then asked a bunch of questions,not answering even one.
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« Reply #105 on: September 25, 2008, 06:11:33 PM »


It is very strange, for a hierarch fleunt in both languages, to refuse to address a priest in Ukrainian, in a Kyivan Cathedral. Not only did he refuse to speak Ukrainian, he told the priest to speak only Russian. And yet shortly thereafter he refused to resign from the episcopacy and created a schism in the Church of God. How pleasant.

Was the visiting priest, by any chance, a Canadian Ukrainian? I am asking because we, "Ukrainian Ukrainians," sometimes have trouble understanding the Ukrainian language of those who have lived in North America in several generations, especially if those people's ancestors are from Halychyna (the extreme West and Southwest of Ukraine).
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« Reply #106 on: September 25, 2008, 06:18:10 PM »

Once again, if you want to talk about Ukrainian history start another thread.  Ukrainian history real or preceived does not justify the creation of either self proclaimed churches.  You all contradict yourselves constantly when you all agree Filaret is a sham but then go and try and defend what he did which was to create divisions within Orthodoxy for his own glory.
I defend the people who followed him. I thought it's quite clear. They are in a real spiritual trouble, due to the divisions you alluded to, created by Filaret, Synod of Moscow, politicians on Russian side, politicians on Ukrainian side etc.

Besides, I'm not sure Filaret is bigger sham than some Russian bishops. Should we depose every bishop suspected of dealing with the KGB? Nevertheless,  I agree he should retire, regardless of if he thinks he was mistreated by the MP or not, just for the greater good of his flock, Ukraine, Ukrainian Church, Russian Church and World Orthodoxy. But he'd too selfish I guess

Hurray!  One entire post that we both agree with!  Who said progress is impossible!

Though he did more than dealt with the communists and KGB.  He created a schism in the church with the support of some of thos excommunists.

Orthodoc
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« Reply #107 on: September 25, 2008, 08:36:18 PM »


Though he did more than dealt with the communists and KGB.  He created a schism in the church with the support of some of thos excommunists.

Orthodoc

The schism was already underway. You can look at his actions as a noble effort to provide Ukrainians with a Church (although you'd probably be wrong about his intentions).

In ideal world, Filaret would retire to some monastery, and then EP, Moscow and less notorious Ukrainian bishops would sit down and come up with the solution. In reality, all aforementioned are too consumed by petty politics.
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« Reply #108 on: September 25, 2008, 09:18:59 PM »


Though he did more than dealt with the communists and KGB.  He created a schism in the church with the support of some of thos excommunists.

Orthodoc

The schism was already underway. You can look at his actions as a noble effort to provide Ukrainians with a Church (although you'd probably be wrong about his intentions). In ideal world, Filaret would retire to some monastery, and then EP, Moscow and less notorious Ukrainian bishops would sit down and come up with the solution. In reality, all aforementioned are too consumed by petty politics.


OOPS!  Knew it was too good to last!  His actions have spoken for themselves.  Reread some of what has been posted not only by myself but others.

Orthodoc
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« Reply #109 on: September 25, 2008, 11:08:22 PM »


OOPS!  Knew it was too good to last!  His actions have spoken for themselves.  Reread some of what has been posted not only by myself but others.

Orthodoc
Well... I admit it's highly unlikely that the guy has anything noble on his mind (even if he does, he still should retire - and if that was the case, he would.). I sort of doubt, though, that the other side is so lily-white in their intentions. They are cut from the same cloth, actually. That's the reason Filaret is so bad at playing patriot - 'cause he's not.
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« Reply #110 on: September 26, 2008, 01:49:33 AM »

...
Fr Alexander.  Where is your church and what jurisdiction are you under? ...

It must be a very special jurisdiction, calling people names instead of refuting their arguments. See the image of personal message I received from him:

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« Reply #111 on: September 26, 2008, 01:57:16 AM »

It must be a very special jurisdiction, calling people names instead of refuting their arguments. See the image of personal message I received from him:

I was never called any names by Father Alexander even as I challenged His Jurisdiction.  No complaints from me.   angel

We don't know what you asked him that would trigger such a response, which I'm not sure if a PM can be reproduced in the public or private fora or vice versa?   Huh

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« Reply #112 on: September 26, 2008, 02:00:02 AM »

...
Was the visiting priest, by any chance, a Canadian Ukrainian? I am asking because we, "Ukrainian Ukrainians," sometimes have trouble understanding the Ukrainian language of those who have lived in North America in several generations, especially if those people's ancestors are from Halychyna (the extreme West and Southwest of Ukraine).

That's probably because their language isn't ukrainianized, as the language of those remaining to live in those areas of Ukraine. They speak as their ancestors were speaking several generations ago, and that obviously isn't Ukrainian language.
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« Reply #113 on: September 26, 2008, 02:06:01 AM »

It must be a very special jurisdiction, calling people names instead of refuting their arguments. See the image of personal message I received from him:

I was never called any names by Father Alexander even as I challenged His Jurisdiction.  No complaints from me.   angel

We don't know what you asked him that would trigger such a response, which I'm not sure if a PM can be reproduced in the public or private fora or vice versa?   Huh



The only post I addressed to him was post #86 on this thread. I sent him no personal messages, he cam claim otherwise and I'll prove such a claim false.

It's my PM, I received it, it was addressed to me and I am free to publish it wherever I want, by the laws of my country, by the laws of server host country and by the laws of domain registrar.
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« Reply #114 on: September 26, 2008, 02:06:21 AM »


It is very strange, for a hierarch fleunt in both languages, to refuse to address a priest in Ukrainian, in a Kyivan Cathedral. Not only did he refuse to speak Ukrainian, he told the priest to speak only Russian. And yet shortly thereafter he refused to resign from the episcopacy and created a schism in the Church of God. How pleasant.

Was the visiting priest, by any chance, a Canadian Ukrainian? I am asking because we, "Ukrainian Ukrainians," sometimes have trouble understanding the Ukrainian language of those who have lived in North America in several generations, especially if those people's ancestors are from Halychyna (the extreme West and Southwest of Ukraine).

If it was the dialect of Ukrainian, how would Russian be better?
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« Reply #115 on: September 26, 2008, 02:09:19 AM »

...Should we depose every bishop suspected of dealing with the KGB? ...

Who are "we"?

Why do you restrict it to KGB? Would the same apply to CIA, BND, etc.?
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« Reply #116 on: September 26, 2008, 02:16:54 AM »

The only post I addressed to him was post #86 on this thread. I sent him no personal messages, he cam claim otherwise and I'll prove such a claim false.

While I agree with you in Reply #86, I didn't feel the need to openly challenge anyone on that note especially if he wasn't bothering me.

It's my PM, I received it, it was addressed to me and I am free to publish it wherever I want, by the laws of my country, by the laws of server host country and by the laws of domain registrar.

I recall seeing a warning about people not being allowed to publish messages from the private fora to the public fora and from PM's to either fora.   angel
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« Reply #117 on: September 26, 2008, 02:19:28 AM »


Who is supposed to be Mother of imagined Orthodox Church of Ukraine?

I don't think it's the matter of dogma, but in my opinion, it should be Constantinople.

Typical Roman Catholic view of ecclessiology.

It's not a matter of dogma, it's a matter of canons (that canonized ancient custom).


Now I patiently wait for your superior wisdom.

Follow in my next post.

Edited to remove derogatory word.
 Derogatory comments towards Roman Catholics. Please refrain from using such language in the future. See the forum rules and policiesfor more information.
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« Reply #118 on: September 26, 2008, 03:58:15 AM »

There is obvious ignorance, and misunderstanding of the notion "autocephalia", of those advocating autocephalia for so-called "Ukrainian Church".

A) The Church (as a whole) functioned according to Metropolitan model during the first centuries. There was no autocephalia and autocephalous Churches between 1st and 4th century.

B) By the Canons of Ecumenical Councils (2nd, 3rd, 4th and either 5th or 6th) first "the ancient custom" of autocephalia is canonized of the sees: Rome, Alexandria and Antioch, than establishment of the see of Constantinopolis, than grant of autocephalia to Jerusalem from Antioch, than grant of autocephalia to Cyprus from Antioch. All done by Ecumenical Councils.

B.1.) It should be noted that two oldest Christian nations, and theri respective Churches, Armenia and Ethiopia, were neither canonized as autocephalous by an Ecumenical Council.

B.1.1.) It should be noted that Ethiopia was part of the See of Alexandria, until several years ago, when OO Alexandria granted her autocephalia. The fact that they are OO, and not EO, doesn't matter much - they followed the model of autocephalous Churches.

B.2.1.)Although the See of Jerusalem were existing prior to Antioch, it was part of Patriarchate of Antioch until Ecumenical Council. The bishop of Jerusalem is succesor of St. Apostole James, while the bishop of Antioch is succesor of St. Apostole Peter. See of James was part of Patriarchate presided by the See of Peter. It's difficult to Roman Catholics to see the difference between Apostolic Succession of bishops and structure of organization of Church as autocephalous.

B.2.2.) Upon breach of communion, caused by theological dispute, between Armenians and the rest of us, Patriarch of Antioch granted autocephalia to the Church of Georgia upon their return into communion. Autocephalia wasn't granted by an Ecumenical Council, than by tomos. AFAIK, Christianity of Georgia was established by St. Nino, and they were part of Armenia where Christianity was established by St. Mesrop [sp?]. I wouldn't know about the borders of "jurisdictions" of that time, but, if there was overstepping of them, it was caused by the differences in faith - Armenians were not in communion and there was the need to organize those who were returning.

C) The rest of autocephalous Churches were all becoming such by receiving tomos from the Church of whom they were part before that - in most cases Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinopolis.

C.1.) Revocation of autocephalia for autocephalous Churches - Serbia twice, Bulgaria once, Georgia once - were always done by conquoring army and, at least in case of Serbia, by mere cessation of existence of bishops and lack of election of their successors.

C.2.) Transfer of borders of jurisdictions between two existing autocephalous Churches occurred several times - Orthodox in Austro-Hungarian Empire, but always in consent between the autocephalous Churches. If there was no consent, there was no transfer.

C.2.1.) There may be slightly different interpretation between EP and other Autocephalous Churches about the transfer of certain lands, but, I'm not sure H.H. Bartholomew of Constantinopolis will push to your interpretation - he is well aware about the possible consequences.

Russian Church, with her seat in Moscow, got autocephalia from Constantinopolis, from whom she received tomos. The fact that baptism of Ryss occured in Kiev 5 centuries before that was absolutely not related. That's why Ecumenical Patriarchate is Mother of Russian Patriarchate.

The issue of borders between them doesn't exist. There is the valid consent of EP to transfer what's Kiev now to Moscow. Subsequent decision about it is ineffective. BTW, simonia means purchase of status of a hierarch - a deacon, a priest, a bishop - and doesn't embrace transfer of territory. EP justified her recent acceptance of some Ukrainians by other reasons, and not by disputing the decision of her own council.

Re.: St. Gregory Palamas, he was a Bishop of Thessalonica, elected by EP, when Thessalonica was part of extended Serbian Patriarchate under Tzar Dusan, whom was under anathema of EP. Following your logic in case of St. Peter Mogila, not making distinction between the apostolic succession of bishops and organization of Church, he couldn't have been real bishop. There was no transfer of See of Kiev to Moscow, just as there was no transfer of See of Thessalonica to Pec.

That's why Moscow would necessarily be Mother of supposed Ukrainian Church if she ever decides to grant her autocephalia.

Finally, stop posing as Orthodox - you are obviously an RC, not having a clue about Orthodox ecclessiology. Your entire eclessiology is papocentric, so go claim autocephalia for yourself from Rome, because no Orthodox in Ukraine is requesting autocephalia, they are happy in UOC - MP, but "Ukrainian autocephalia" is the issue of high concern for all enemies of Orthodox.

We'll keep placing our hope in the Holy Spirit.

Edited to remove offensive epithets  -PtA
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« Reply #119 on: September 26, 2008, 04:15:59 AM »

I forgot:

In 1924 EP ceded jurisdiction over Carpato-Ryss to Serbian Patriarchate. Carpat-Ryss diocese was immediately granted autonomous status within Serbian Church. She was simply destroyed afterwards by Bolsheviks, while some of her clergy and flock emigrated to West.

Therefore, EP can have no claim over Carpato-Ryss diocese, while Carpato-Ryss brothers (Lemko, Ryssins, and others - forgive me if I failed to list some) give some glorious people to Orthodoxy - I believe we'll have some glorious Saints from them, proclaimed by ROCOR, once the time comes.
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« Reply #120 on: September 26, 2008, 08:21:30 AM »

Finally, stop posing as Orthodox - you are obviously an RC, not having a clue about Orthodox ecclessiology. Your entire eclessiology is papocentric, so go claim autocephalia for yourself from Rome, because no Orthodox in Ukraine is requesting autocephalia, they are happy in UOC - MP, but "Ukrainian autocephalia" is the issue of high concern for all enemies of Orthodox.

We'll keep placing our hope in the Holy Spirit.

Bravo Brate!!!! Excellent post, but this part made me stand up and give you a standing ovation.  100% right... wolf in sheeps clothing.

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« Reply #121 on: September 26, 2008, 10:59:09 AM »

That's probably because their language isn't ukrainianized, as the language of those remaining to live in those areas of Ukraine. They speak as their ancestors were speaking several generations ago, and that obviously isn't Ukrainian language.
"Obviously"? OBVIOUSLY? Listen, pal, don't you think that a couple of Ukrainians can spot Ukrainian better than you? FYI: even in the most Russophone areas in Ukraine, older people in rural areas do speak the language their ancestors spoke several generations ago. And you know what? That language is identical to the normative Ukrainian (Poltava dialect). So please drop your silly conspiracy theory, will you?
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« Reply #122 on: September 26, 2008, 11:11:43 AM »

because no Orthodox in Ukraine is requesting autocephalia, they are happy in UOC - MP, but "Ukrainian autocephalia" is the issue of high concern for all enemies of Orthodox.


Orthodoxlurker,  do you claim to speak for all Orthodox faithfull in Ukraine?  By what right?  Have you asked each and every one of them, their honest opinion?

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« Reply #123 on: September 26, 2008, 11:16:15 AM »

because no Orthodox in Ukraine is requesting autocephalia, they are happy in UOC - MP, but "Ukrainian autocephalia" is the issue of high concern for all enemies of Orthodox.


Orthodoxlurker,  do you claim to speak for all Orthodox faithfull in Ukraine?  By what right?  Have you asked each and every one of them, their honest opinion?



According to my priest, Fr Victor, who is in his mid-thirties and born and raised in Ukraine 85% of the Orthodox support the UOC-MP.

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« Reply #124 on: September 26, 2008, 11:26:41 AM »


^Again...how does HE know?  Has he polled each Orthodox individual?

That is such a broad statement. 

...and is he asking the Ukrainians who are Orthodox or the Russians who are Orthodox and just happen to be living in Ukraine?

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« Reply #125 on: September 26, 2008, 12:26:16 PM »


^Again...how does HE know?  Has he polled each Orthodox individual?

That is such a broad statement. 

...and is he asking the Ukrainians who are Orthodox or the Russians who are Orthodox and just happen to be living in Ukraine?



How do YOU know he is wrong?  Have YOU polled each individual?  I'm sure he has obtained those statistics from somewhere.  He just didn't make them up.

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« Reply #126 on: September 26, 2008, 12:48:08 PM »


^Again...how does HE know?  Has he polled each Orthodox individual?
...

I'd be much obliged to respond and explain, once I have it clarified by Stanislav if this:

...
"Obviously"? OBVIOUSLY? Listen, pal, don't you think that a couple of Ukrainians can spot Ukrainian better than you? ...

was his final say and argument with me re: "canonicity", "orthodoxy", "simonia" and "autocephalia".

Just be patient, Lisa. Meanwhile, what are your comments re Mother?
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« Reply #127 on: September 26, 2008, 12:59:53 PM »

...And you know what? That language is identical to the normative Ukrainian (Poltava dialect). So please drop your silly conspiracy theory, will you?

Is it Ukrainian or Poltava dialect?

I wouldn't know about dialects, but Heorhij here claimed those from left side of some river speak quite differently from these on the right side of the river. Not to mention easterners, whom speak much more like Russians (and the Russians themselves, not speaking Ukrinian). And, of course, not to forget Ryssins and Lemko, whom speak their own languages, and not Ukrainian.

Heorhij also said this and that Ukrainian politician doesn't know to speak Ukrainian, and even President Uschenko doesn't speak it well. So I'm yet to hear what exactly is Ukrainian language.

Err, I wouldn't know about dialects. You've got me there Grin Grin Grin How many of them there are in Ukraine?
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« Reply #128 on: September 26, 2008, 01:28:58 PM »

C.2.) Transfer of borders of jurisdictions between two existing autocephalous Churches occurred several times - Orthodox in Austro-Hungarian Empire, but always in consent between the autocephalous Churches. If there was no consent, there was no transfer.
Perhaps, but in wasn't necessarily a smooth transition. Witness Estonia and talks of South Ossetia and Abkhasia coming under the MP.

C.2.1.) There may be slightly different interpretation between EP and other Autocephalous Churches about the transfer of certain lands, but, I'm not sure H.H. Bartholomew of Constantinopolis will push to your interpretation - he is well aware about the possible consequences.
Well, yes, because it is politically imprudent. Pushing too hard will surely result in a huge fight with the MP, which is highly undesirable. (again, look what happened in Estonia - over a tiny little diocese). This does not change the facts though. And BTW, it does not really help personally Vladyko Filaret: his jurisdiction is uncanonical for other reasons, most of them stemming directly from his "leadership". He does not even use "tomos of 1924" in his apologia. Partly because this'll mean submitting to EP for at least a little while, and he's too used to be "Patriarch". Plus, EP might not want him as an active Bishop, both because MP won't like it and due to his ethics and charming personality. UAOC might do something in this direction (they seem to be more reasonable), but they have their own problems.

I hope that eventual solution will involve both Moscow and EP.

Russian Church, with her seat in Moscow, got autocephalia from Constantinopolis, from whom she received tomos. The fact that baptism of Ryss occured in Kiev 5 centuries before that was absolutely not related. That's why Ecumenical Patriarchate is Mother of Russian Patriarchate.
Let's start from the beginning: define "Mother".


The issue of borders between them doesn't exist. There is the valid consent of EP to transfer what's Kiev now to Moscow. Subsequent decision about it is ineffective. BTW, simonia means purchase of status of a hierarch - a deacon, a priest, a bishop - and doesn't embrace transfer of territory. EP justified her recent acceptance of some Ukrainians by other reasons, and not by disputing the decision of her own council.
Cute. So bribing a brother hierarch is OK then, as long as it's for territory not ordination?

Re.: St. Gregory Palamas, he was a Bishop of Thessalonica, elected by EP, when Thessalonica was part of extended Serbian Patriarchate under Tzar Dusan, whom was under anathema of EP. Following your logic in case of St. Peter Mogila, not making distinction between the apostolic succession of bishops and organization of Church, he couldn't have been real bishop. There was no transfer of See of Kiev to Moscow, just as there was no transfer of See of Thessalonica to Pec.
So the MP is not really a successor of the Kyiv Metropolia? Thank you! I keep hearing this argument all the time.


That's why Moscow would necessarily be Mother of supposed Ukrainian Church if she ever decides to grant her autocephalia.
Sorry, I'm not convinced. In fact, I don't think I follow your argument. Try to write shorter posts, and do not skip logical steps.

Finally, stop posing as Orthodox - you are obviously a Papist, not having a clue about Orthodox ecclessiology. Your entire eclessiology is papocentric, so go claim autocephalia for yourself from Rome, because no Orthodox in Ukraine is requesting autocephalia, they are happy in UOC - MP, but "Ukrainian autocephalia" is the issue of high concern for all enemies of Orthodox.
Yeah right.
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« Reply #129 on: September 26, 2008, 01:36:19 PM »

 Smiley

Well, you are asking a Ukrainian.  A Ukrainian with Ukrainian ancestry dating back ages.  My family has suffered for being Ukrainian patriots.  My grandfather was exiled to Siberia (Soloveyki) for being a Ukrainian, not a Russian.   My grandmother, left without a husband, had to work day and night to feed her family (all this during the famine of 1930's).  My mother as a child of 5 let it slip on the playground that her grandmother "talks" to God each night. That evening the KGB knocked down the door and shredded all their clothes and broke all their furniture looking for evidence of "God". [Everything was hidden in a false bottomed chest.]  I could go on and on about family history.

I myself, born and raised in the U.S. (and proud to be an American) love my roots.  Ukrainian was my first language.  Orthodoxy - I would parish without it.

I visited Ukraine for the first time some 12 years ago with my mother.  I can only tell you what I saw.  

I got the cold shoulder and was yelled at in Russian by some old ladies when I put flowers at the monument to Taras Shevchenko, a great Ukrainian poet/author/painter/patriot....
I'd never seen such open hostility....especially since I hadn't done anything wrong....  The little old ladies were yelling that he belonged to them...that he was Russian....Huh  He wrote about Ukraine, not Russia.

I couldn't even get a bottle of water at the hotel, when I asked for it in Ukrainian.  Only when I switched and asked in Russian did I actually get service.  

So, seeing the Russiphication first hand, killed me.   I was in Kharkiv (Eastern portion of the country that borders with Russia, and is inhabited by many Russians).   I'm speaking Ukrainian, in Ukraine, and getting nowhere, until I say it in Russian.

While I would die for Orthodoxy, I simply cannot fathom having to bow down to Moscow.  To go to Moscow for my faith, gives me goosebumps.

Why is Russia considered to be "Holy Mother Russia" and better then others?  

Many saints have haled from Ukraine, not just Russia.  RUS is Ukraine.  Russia came later.  Prince Volodymir was Ukrainia.  

I respect Russia for her faith, for preserving the ways, however, I cannot understand why Russia needs to lord it over Ukraine in all things?

I don't dislike Russia, however, I like Ukraine.

...and as a mere human, national pride gets in the way.

In the US I have gone to pray in many different Orthodox churches (during Lent each Sunday there is a vespers service in a different Orthodox church).  I have been to Russian churches, Greek, Antiochian, Romanian, Bulgarian, etc.  Why can't there be a Ukrainian church?  Just tell me one reason why NOT?

Given time....of course.  Let the national politics simmer down.  Stability will come.

Why not in the future?  Why is everyone so dead set against it?

Why would a Ukrainian church bring ruin to Orthodoxy?  WHy would you even say such a thing?

I am Ukrainian. I love God.  I would never do anything to bring down Orthodoxy...and it kills me to hear everyone so against Ukraine and her right to have a church of her own...when it's allowed in other nations.

If you are so deadset against a Ukrainian church, how come you allow Serbian, Romanian, etc?

Why shouldn't we all just bow down to Jerusalem?  After all, if you are looking for the "Mother" church....wouldn't that be Jerusalem?  Did not Christ found His church there?

You all bring me to tears with all this bickering and hatred.  

With all these "politics" you lose the true meaning of Orthodoxy - Love thy neighbor as yourself!

I wish nobody ill, I wish for equality.

Peace to all my brothers and sisters in Christ!

Long live Orthodoxy!  (no matter what language/nationality)

I love you all....and I am honored that you fight for what you think is right!


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« Reply #130 on: September 26, 2008, 01:45:31 PM »

Is it Ukrainian or Poltava dialect?
FYI: modern "normative" Ukrainian is based on Poltava dialect. You have made such a confident pronouncement on language, so I assumed you knew such an elementary fact.

I wouldn't know about dialects, but Heorhij here claimed those from left side of some river speak quite differently from these on the right side of the river. Not to mention easterners, whom speak much more like Russians (and the Russians themselves, not speaking Ukrinian). And, of course, not to forget Ryssins and Lemko, whom speak their own languages, and not Ukrainian.
...
Err, I wouldn't know about dialects. You've got me there Grin Grin Grin How many of them there are in Ukraine?
You didn't know languages have dialects? Did you really?

Heorhij also said this and that Ukrainian politician doesn't know to speak Ukrainian, and even President Uschenko doesn't speak it well. So I'm yet to hear what exactly is Ukrainian language.
You want a lecture? Please enroll in a university course at a school that has a decent Eastern Slavic program. Colloquially, a normative Ukrainian is the one you'd hear on the Ukrainian TV. The language of Shevchenko and Kotlyarevs'ky.  Sort of like any other language, you know?

BTW, Yuschenko speaks fine. He has a slight problem with normative use - he comes from a village right on the border with Russia. Still, his native dialect is recognizably Ukrainian. Politicians of national prominence are actually OK at speaking Ukrainian, aside of a few anomalies. It's interesting to see how quickly seasoned Russophones learn Ukrainian as soon as they're in Kyiv. "Pro-Russian" (actually, pro-big bucks semicriminal business) parliamentary Yankovitch is actually a good example. A new contender for national leadership, prime minister Yulia Tymoshenko speaks flawless Ukrainian (right down to regional phonetics native to the crowd she happens to address). She's a Russophone from Dnipropetrivs'k.
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« Reply #131 on: September 26, 2008, 02:23:32 PM »

Smiley


Comment:  While I would die for Orthodoxy, I simply cannot fathom having to bow down to Moscow.  To go to Moscow for my faith, gives me goosebumps.

Reply:  That's just the point.  You don't have to go to Moscow for your faith.  Didn't you read the articles contained in the Tomos of Automony?  The problem is you are so blinded by hatred and distrust you cannot comprehend what you are reading or fail to admit the meaning of the words.

Comment: Why is Russia considered to be "Holy Mother Russia" and better then others?

Reply:  What does that have to do with this whole discussion?  Russia was known as 'Holy Russia' because it had more churches than any other country on earth.  Moscow had more churches than any other city in the world. 

Comment:  Many saints have haled from Ukraine, not just Russia.  RUS is Ukraine.  Russia came later.  Prince Volodymir was Ukrainia. 

Reply:  No, Ukraine was part of Rus.  I'm not a history expert but didn't Rus consist of various principalities?  Wasn't Novgorod one of those principalities?  And wasn't Prince Vladimir prince of Novgorod before becoming prince of Kievan Rus?

Comment:  I don't dislike Russia, however, I like Ukraine.

Reply:  From your comments you could have fooled me!

Comment:  In the US I have gone to pray in many different Orthodox churches (during Lent each Sunday there is a vespers service in a different Orthodox church).  I have been to Russian churches, Greek, Antiochian, Romanian, Bulgarian, etc.  

Why can't there be a Ukrainian church?  Just tell me one reason why NOT?

Reply:  Can you show me where anyone said there could never a Ukrainian Chuch?  All that has been said is that now is not the right time!

Comment: Given time....of course.  Let the national politics simmer down.  Stability will come.

Why not in the future?  Why is everyone so dead set against it?

Reply:  Which is what we have been saying all along!

Comment:  Why would a Ukrainian church bring ruin to Orthodoxy?  WHy would you even say such a thing?

Reply;  Where has it indicated that everyone is dead set against an eventual autocephalous Ukrainian Orthodox Church?  All that has been stated that the time is not ripe.  Which you seem to agree with by some of your comments made above.

Comment:  With all these "politics" you lose the true meaning of Orthodoxy - Love thy neighbor as yourself!

Reply;  This is what we have been saying all along.  We seem to be just going around in circles here.

Peace to all my brothers and sisters in Christ!

Long live Orthodoxy!  (no matter what language/nationality)

I love you all....and I am honored that you fight for what you think is right!



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« Reply #132 on: September 26, 2008, 02:36:24 PM »

All this discussion about Ukraine reminds me of the test the Pharisees gave Jesus about the 7 childless brothers-in-law of a widowed woman (Matthew 22:23-33). 

28 Therefore, in the resurrection, whose wife of the seven will she be? For they all had her.

At the end, does it matter whom we belonged to in this life?  Do you even think about living life as Christians or as xenophobes? After all, organizations like KGB and CIA are insecure, paranoid, xenophobic, etc and our Holy Martyrs were neither insecure, paranoid nor xenophobic....
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« Reply #133 on: September 26, 2008, 02:43:31 PM »

All this discussion about Ukraine reminds me of the test the Pharisees gave Jesus about the 7 childless brothers-in-law of a widowed woman (Matthew 22:23-33). 

28 Therefore, in the resurrection, whose wife of the seven will she be? For they all had her.

At the end, does it matter whom we belonged to in this life?  Do you even think about living life as Christians or as xenophobes? After all, organizations like KGB and CIA are insecure, paranoid, xenophobic, etc and our Holy Martyrs were neither insecure, paranoid nor xenophobic....

AMEN!  We have gotten so far off the original purpose of his thread which was to try and justify the UOC-KP.  What we got in response are historical opinions that are questionable depending on who you talk to.  As I said before start a ukrainian history thread.

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« Reply #134 on: September 26, 2008, 02:53:30 PM »

AMEN!  We have gotten so far off the original purpose of his thread which was to try and justify the UOC-KP.  What we got in response are historical opinions that are questionable depending on who you talk to.  As I said before start a ukrainian history thread.

I suggest that the thread become a sticky because the polemics here have reached the same levels as OO/EO discussion, anything pertaining to homosexuality and other "hot" topics on the forum.   Cool 
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