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Author Topic: The Canonical Declaration of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (Kyiv Patriarchate)  (Read 18000 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: September 23, 2008, 11:36:27 AM »

He was asked to retire by his Sobor due to allegations of a commonlaw wife, improper financial dealings etc etc etc. Given that I know priests who have met him and his so-called "common-law wife", as well as were told by him to explicitly not address him in Ukrainian, you have a hard sell.

The last part sounds strange to me. I heard him speak Ukrainian. His command on the Ukrainian language is very good. Maybe he speaks Russian in his everyday life, because he is a native of the Donetsk oblast, the part of the Ukrainian Southeast where the majority of people speak Russian. But that hardly makes him a "Russophile." When he speaks from a podium, he speaks very beautiful, grammatic, idiomatic Ukrainian.

And the MP in this case has authority over their bishops. They asked him to retire, he refused. Simple as that. The rest of Orthodoxy are bystanders in this issue. It is a local council issue, that was addressed by the Russians.

It should not be like that. It's just not right.
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« Reply #46 on: September 23, 2008, 11:47:58 AM »


Isn't that what they already have as an AUTOMONOUS Church in communion with the MP?


Well, the prelate of the canonical UOC, Metr. Volodymyr (Sabodan) is a member of the Synod of Bishops of the Moscow Patriarchy, so he answers to Patriarch Alexiy II. I don't think Vl. Volodymyr can, for example, decide on matters of Chirotony of bishops in his Church without the consent of Patriarch Alexiy.

I disagree.  Automonous means ADMINISTRATIVELY SELF GOVERNING.  From my understanding the only two things an automonous church cannot do is have the final say on the elction of its chief hierach and make the Holy Chrism which it has to receive from the church that granted it its automony.  The election of bishops, running of dioceses, etc. are administrative duties it can freely function with.

Maybe one of the clergy here and elaborate more.

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« Reply #47 on: September 23, 2008, 12:07:21 PM »


Isn't that what they already have as an AUTOMONOUS Church in communion with the MP?


... I don't think Vl. Volodymyr can, for example, decide on matters of Chirotony of bishops in his Church without the consent of Patriarch Alexiy.

I disagree.  Automonous means ADMINISTRATIVELY SELF GOVERNING.  From my understanding the only two things an automonous church cannot do is have the final say on the elction of its chief hierach and make the Holy Chrism which it has to receive from the church that granted it its automony.  The election of bishops, running of dioceses, etc. are administrative duties it can freely function with.

Maybe one of the clergy here and elaborate more.

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If I'm allowed, though I'm just a laymen, it might appear I'm not speaking just utter nonsense on the issue:

The scope of autonomy is determined by the document of it's establishment by Mother Church. The same document should determine the fashion of any further amendments of itself (e.g., could it be amended by the mere resolution of the council of Mother Church, or the amendments would require consent or approval of the council of Autonomous Church, etc.).

AFAIK, autonomy of Archbishopric of Ohrid of Serbian Orthodox Church assume that they'll elect their own bishops (technically that's not possible because there is only one bishop there, and he is imprisoned). The only form of "dependancy" is that Arhcbishop will mention Serbian Patriarch in prayers (I don't know about Chrism).

MP have several autonomies (ROCOR, Church of Japan, Estonia, Ukraine, etc.) and they have various degrees of autonomy (I think Church of Japan the greatest one), while ROCOR takes Holy Chrism, but appoints her bishops on her own and elect her primate on her own.

What exactly is the scope of autonomy of UOC-MP could easily be determined by reading the documents. There is simply no need for agreement / disagreement over the facts.
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« Reply #48 on: September 23, 2008, 01:37:24 PM »

If I'm allowed, though I'm just a laymen, it might appear I'm not speaking just utter nonsense on the issue:

The scope of autonomy is determined by the document of it's establishment by Mother Church. The same document should determine the fashion of any further amendments of itself (e.g., could it be amended by the mere resolution of the council of Mother Church, or the amendments would require consent or approval of the council of Autonomous Church, etc.).

AFAIK, autonomy of Archbishopric of Ohrid of Serbian Orthodox Church assume that they'll elect their own bishops (technically that's not possible because there is only one bishop there, and he is imprisoned). The only form of "dependancy" is that Arhcbishop will mention Serbian Patriarch in prayers (I don't know about Chrism).

MP have several autonomies (ROCOR, Church of Japan, Estonia, Ukraine, etc.) and they have various degrees of autonomy (I think Church of Japan the greatest one), while ROCOR takes Holy Chrism, but appoints her bishops on her own and elect her primate on her own.

What exactly is the scope of autonomy of UOC-MP could easily be determined by reading the documents. There is simply no need for agreement / disagreement over the facts.

Your observation is spot-on.  We would need a copy of the document granting Autonomy before we could speculate on the extent of said Autonomy.
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« Reply #49 on: September 23, 2008, 01:57:26 PM »

If I'm allowed, though I'm just a laymen, it might appear I'm not speaking just utter nonsense on the issue:

The scope of autonomy is determined by the document of it's establishment by Mother Church. The same document should determine the fashion of any further amendments of itself (e.g., could it be amended by the mere resolution of the council of Mother Church, or the amendments would require consent or approval of the council of Autonomous Church, etc.).

AFAIK, autonomy of Archbishopric of Ohrid of Serbian Orthodox Church assume that they'll elect their own bishops (technically that's not possible because there is only one bishop there, and he is imprisoned). The only form of "dependancy" is that Arhcbishop will mention Serbian Patriarch in prayers (I don't know about Chrism).

MP have several autonomies (ROCOR, Church of Japan, Estonia, Ukraine, etc.) and they have various degrees of autonomy (I think Church of Japan the greatest one), while ROCOR takes Holy Chrism, but appoints her bishops on her own and elect her primate on her own.

What exactly is the scope of autonomy of UOC-MP could easily be determined by reading the documents. There is simply no need for agreement / disagreement over the facts.

Your observation is spot-on.  We would need a copy of the document granting Autonomy before we could speculate on the extent of said Autonomy.

Anyone know how or where we can get a translated copy?  This seems like a great topic for further discussion.

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« Reply #50 on: September 23, 2008, 02:11:52 PM »

I found the document, here: http://orthodox.org.ua/uk/tserkva_i_derjava/religiyne_zakonodavstvo/dokumenti_ukrainskoi_pravo_0

It is strange to me. On the one hand, is says in its paragraph 1, "Українська Православна Церква є самостійною і незалежною у своєму управлінні та устрої" ("the Ukrainian Orthodox Church is self-governed and independent in her government and her structure"). On the other hand, its paragraph 3 reads, "Українська Православна Церква з'єднана з Помісними Православними Церквами через Руську Православну Церкву" ("the Ukrainian Orthodox Church is united with the Autocephalous Orthodox Churches THROUGH THE RUSSIAN ORTHODOX CHURCH). Later, it says that the Synod of her Bishops is the supreme organ of power in the Church, but just a few lines later we read that one important function of this Synod is "збереження канонічної єдності Української Православної Церкви, а також її канонічної єдності з Руською Православною Церквою та з усіма Помісними Православними Церквами" ("maintaining the canonical integrity of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, and also her canonical unity WITH THE RUSSIAN ORTHODOX CHURCH and with all Autocephalous Orthodox Churches").

So, the relationship with the Russian Orthodox Church is clearly given a special place.
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« Reply #51 on: September 23, 2008, 02:13:38 PM »

http://orthodox.org.ua/eng/node/36
Quote
Resolution of the Bishop’s Council of the Russian Orthodox Church (October 25-27, 1990) concerning the Ukrainian Orthodox Church

 

The Bishops' Council, consisting of 91 hierarchs (6 off sick), presided over by His Holiness the Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia Alexy II, considered and comprehensively discussed the appeal of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church for granting it independence and autonomy in government.   

The Holy Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church at its session of July, 20, 1990 /proceedings No. 12/ took a survey of the decree of the Synod of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of July, 10, 1990, on the arrangements aiming at the development of its independence, made in the spirit of the Resolutions of the Local Council of the Russian Orthodox Church held on July, 7-8, 1990, and referred the question to decision.

Taking into account principal significance of the above-mentioned decree of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church for the future of the ecclesiastical life in Ukraine, the Holy Synod concluded: to consider it at the special Bishops' Council. 

For preparation of the Bishops' Council, a special commission was formed by the Holy Synod with His Eminence Metropolitan of Krutitsy and Kolomna Juvenaly at the head. The commission was entrusted to make a thorough study of  suggestions of the Synod of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church since they involve a wide range of historical, canonical, pastors' and international problems, resolving of which presupposes canonical embodiment of the Resolutions of the Local Council of the Russian Orthodox Church held on July, 7-8, 1990, concerning the Ukrainian Orthodox Church.

On October, 1, 1990, /proceedings No. 114/ the Holy Synod approved the activity of the Commission mentioned. The materials and suggestions on the actual issue were sent to all the Eminences of the Russian Orthodox Church and were brought up for discussion and approval of the present Council of Bishops. 

On the detailed examination and comprehensive discussion of the request of the Synod and the episcopate of the UOC, the Council of Bishops resolved:

1. The Ukrainian Orthodox Church obtains independence and self-governance.

2. Thereby the name "Ukrainian Exarchate" is abolished.

3. Primate of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church is elected by the Ukrainian episcopate and is blessed by His Holiness the Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia.

4. Primate of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church bears the title of His Beatitude Metropolitan of Kyiv and All Ukraine. 

5. Metropolitan of Kyiv and All Ukraine is conferred on a title "The Most Blessed", within the limits of the Ukrainian Church.

6. Metropolitan of Kyiv and All Ukraine enjoys the privilege of wearing two Panagias and the privilege of precedence with the cross during Divine services.

7. The Synod of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church elects and appoints ruling and vicar bishops, established and abolishes dioceses inside Ukraine.

8. Metropolitan of Kyiv and All Ukraine as Primate of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church is a permanent member of the Holy Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church.

9. Present Resolution of the Bishop's Council of the Russian Orthodox Church is subject to confirmation of the Local Council of the Russian Orthodox Church with introduction of the corresponding changes into the Statute of Government of the Russian Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #52 on: September 23, 2008, 02:16:26 PM »

...
So, the relationship with the Russian Orthodox Church is clearly given a special place.

I'm appalled you don't differ autonomy from autocephalia.

Of course the relationship with MP are "special", autonomy is part of her Mother. She isn't autocephalous.
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« Reply #53 on: September 23, 2008, 02:21:27 PM »

So, the relationship with the Russian Orthodox Church is clearly given a special place.

I'd imagine that ROCOR, the Church of Japan, the Church of Estonia, etc., also have special relationships with the MP.  I'd further imagine that the self-ruled Antiochian Archdiocese here has a similar special relationship with the Patriarchate of Antioch.  I really don't see what the issue is.
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« Reply #54 on: September 23, 2008, 02:29:25 PM »

...
So, the relationship with the Russian Orthodox Church is clearly given a special place.

I'm appalled you don't differ autonomy from autocephalia.

Of course the relationship with MP are "special", autonomy is part of her Mother. She isn't autocephalous.

That's what actually bothers many Ukrainian Orthodox. Why is Moscow "mother?"
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« Reply #55 on: September 23, 2008, 02:32:20 PM »

So, the relationship with the Russian Orthodox Church is clearly given a special place.

I'd imagine that ROCOR, the Church of Japan, the Church of Estonia, etc., also have special relationships with the MP.  I'd further imagine that the self-ruled Antiochian Archdiocese here has a similar special relationship with the Patriarchate of Antioch.  I really don't see what the issue is.

Well, Japan and the Antiochian Archdiocese have no political issues with Russia and Syria, respectively. Ukraine and Russia do have a lot of unsettled political issues, and the ROC is far from neutral in these issues. Agan, how can a Ukrainian pray, during the Divine Liturgy, for his/her President, and simultaneously hear from his/her hierarchs that this President is a "little stinking, yapping dog, whose rotten teeth will soon be crushed by the mighty Russian military fist?"
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« Reply #56 on: September 23, 2008, 02:41:28 PM »

So, the relationship with the Russian Orthodox Church is clearly given a special place.

I'd imagine that ROCOR, the Church of Japan, the Church of Estonia, etc., also have special relationships with the MP.  I'd further imagine that the self-ruled Antiochian Archdiocese here has a similar special relationship with the Patriarchate of Antioch.  I really don't see what the issue is.

Well, Japan and the Antiochian Archdiocese have no political issues with Russia and Syria, respectively. Ukraine and Russia do have a lot of unsettled political issues, and the ROC is far from neutral in these issues. Agan, how can a Ukrainian pray, during the Divine Liturgy, for his/her President, and simultaneously hear from his/her hierarchs that this President is a "little stinking, yapping dog, whose rotten teeth will soon be crushed by the mighty Russian military fist?"

Okay, so it really is just an anti-Russian thing rather than a theological or ecclessiological dispute.
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« Reply #57 on: September 23, 2008, 02:43:12 PM »

...

That's what actually bothers many Ukrainian Orthodox. Why is Moscow "mother?"

It will always be Mother Church. Even if she would grant autocephalia. Just the same as EP is Mother to: Serbia, Bulgaria, Moscow and Czech and Slovak Lands (in chronological order), Alexandria is Mother to Ethiopia, while Antioch is Mother to Georgia.

Are you bothered with your mother? I love mine.
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« Reply #58 on: September 23, 2008, 02:44:47 PM »

So, the relationship with the Russian Orthodox Church is clearly given a special place.

I'd imagine that ROCOR, the Church of Japan, the Church of Estonia, etc., also have special relationships with the MP.  I'd further imagine that the self-ruled Antiochian Archdiocese here has a similar special relationship with the Patriarchate of Antioch.  I really don't see what the issue is.

Well, Japan and the Antiochian Archdiocese have no political issues with Russia and Syria, respectively. Ukraine and Russia do have a lot of unsettled political issues, and the ROC is far from neutral in these issues. Agan, how can a Ukrainian pray, during the Divine Liturgy, for his/her President, and simultaneously hear from his/her hierarchs that this President is a "little stinking, yapping dog, whose rotten teeth will soon be crushed by the mighty Russian military fist?"

Imagine those poor Bulgar(ian)s at the time of Basil Bulgaroktonos. They (we) were part of EP.

Alas! Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
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« Reply #59 on: September 23, 2008, 02:46:07 PM »

So, the relationship with the Russian Orthodox Church is clearly given a special place.

I'd imagine that ROCOR, the Church of Japan, the Church of Estonia, etc., also have special relationships with the MP.  I'd further imagine that the self-ruled Antiochian Archdiocese here has a similar special relationship with the Patriarchate of Antioch.  I really don't see what the issue is.

Well, Japan and the Antiochian Archdiocese have no political issues with Russia and Syria, respectively. Ukraine and Russia do have a lot of unsettled political issues, and the ROC is far from neutral in these issues. Agan, how can a Ukrainian pray, during the Divine Liturgy, for his/her President, and simultaneously hear from his/her hierarchs that this President is a "little stinking, yapping dog, whose rotten teeth will soon be crushed by the mighty Russian military fist?"

Okay, so it really is just an anti-Russian thing rather than a theological or ecclessiological dispute.

You got it!  This has been my point all along!

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« Reply #60 on: September 23, 2008, 02:46:41 PM »

So, the relationship with the Russian Orthodox Church is clearly given a special place.

I'd imagine that ROCOR, the Church of Japan, the Church of Estonia, etc., also have special relationships with the MP.  I'd further imagine that the self-ruled Antiochian Archdiocese here has a similar special relationship with the Patriarchate of Antioch.  I really don't see what the issue is.

Well, Japan and the Antiochian Archdiocese have no political issues with Russia and Syria, respectively. Ukraine and Russia do have a lot of unsettled political issues, and the ROC is far from neutral in these issues. Agan, how can a Ukrainian pray, during the Divine Liturgy, for his/her President, and simultaneously hear from his/her hierarchs that this President is a "little stinking, yapping dog, whose rotten teeth will soon be crushed by the mighty Russian military fist?"

Okay, so it really is just an anti-Russian thing rather than a theological or ecclessiological dispute.

There are no anti-Russian feelings there, but, rather, a strong discontent and mistrust in the hierarchs, appointed by the Moscow Patriarchy. And it is, I believe, an ecclesiological and a theological issue. How can a hierarch celebrate the Divine Liturgy, during which he chants, calling people to pray "for our country and President" and simultaneously concur to the idea that this Prersident is a stinking dog?
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« Reply #61 on: September 23, 2008, 02:48:04 PM »

So, the relationship with the Russian Orthodox Church is clearly given a special place.

I'd imagine that ROCOR, the Church of Japan, the Church of Estonia, etc., also have special relationships with the MP.  I'd further imagine that the self-ruled Antiochian Archdiocese here has a similar special relationship with the Patriarchate of Antioch.  I really don't see what the issue is.

Well, Japan and the Antiochian Archdiocese have no political issues with Russia and Syria, respectively. Ukraine and Russia do have a lot of unsettled political issues, and the ROC is far from neutral in these issues. Agan, how can a Ukrainian pray, during the Divine Liturgy, for his/her President, and simultaneously hear from his/her hierarchs that this President is a "little stinking, yapping dog, whose rotten teeth will soon be crushed by the mighty Russian military fist?"

Okay, so it really is just an anti-Russian thing rather than a theological or ecclessiological dispute.

You got it!  This has been my point all along!

Orthodoc

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« Reply #62 on: September 23, 2008, 02:49:24 PM »

...
There are no anti-Russian feelings there, but, rather, a strong discontent and mistrust in the hierarchs, appointed by the Moscow Patriarchy. ...

According to the above quoted resolution, no one is appointed in Autonomous Ukrainian Church (MP) by MP.
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« Reply #63 on: September 23, 2008, 03:03:01 PM »

...
There are no anti-Russian feelings there, but, rather, a strong discontent and mistrust in the hierarchs, appointed by the Moscow Patriarchy. ...

According to the above quoted resolution, no one is appointed in Autonomous Ukrainian Church (MP) by MP.

Formally speaking - correct, but given this paragraph:

"8. Metropolitan of Kyiv and All Ukraine as Primate of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church is a permanent member of the Holy Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church" -

-- any action of the Primate and of the Synd of Bishops can be approved or disapproved by the person who presides over the Holy Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church. No?
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« Reply #64 on: September 23, 2008, 03:11:03 PM »

...

-- any action of the Primate and of the Synd of Bishops can be approved or disapproved by the person who presides over the Holy Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church. No?

No.
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« Reply #65 on: September 23, 2008, 03:24:34 PM »

...

-- any action of the Primate and of the Synd of Bishops can be approved or disapproved by the person who presides over the Holy Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church. No?

No.

So, Metropolitan Volodymyr and Patriarch Aleksiy II never talk?
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« Reply #66 on: September 23, 2008, 03:34:13 PM »

So, Metropolitan Volodymyr and Patriarch Aleksiy II never talk?  

I'm sure they do talk; they probably even have frank and candid conversations on occasion.  But that doesn't mean that the Patriarch bullies or orders the Metropolitan around.

According to the above-quoted document, the relationship between the MP and the Ukranian church is this:

1. The Ukranian Church elects all its own bishops; the election of the Metropolitan of Kyiv must be blessed by the MP, though (i.e. the Ukranian Church elects 1, and the MP ratifies the election).
2. The Ukranian Church governs itself.
3. The head of the Ukranian Church can participate in the governance of the Muscovite Church.
4. (Implied) The only way in which this relationship can change is by action of Moscow; there are 3 options:
a. Modification of the decree (to increase or lessen the involvement of the MP in the Ukranian Church).
b. Abolishment of the decree (to render the Ukranian Church as a diocese of the MP).
c. Nullification of the decree through a Tomos of Autocephaly (separating the Ukranian Church from the MP).
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« Reply #67 on: September 23, 2008, 03:41:58 PM »

So, the relationship with the Russian Orthodox Church is clearly given a special place.

I'd imagine that ROCOR, the Church of Japan, the Church of Estonia, etc., also have special relationships with the MP.  I'd further imagine that the self-ruled Antiochian Archdiocese here has a similar special relationship with the Patriarchate of Antioch.  I really don't see what the issue is.

Well, Japan and the Antiochian Archdiocese have no political issues with Russia and Syria, respectively. Ukraine and Russia do have a lot of unsettled political issues, and the ROC is far from neutral in these issues. Agan, how can a Ukrainian pray, during the Divine Liturgy, for his/her President, and simultaneously hear from his/her hierarchs that this President is a "little stinking, yapping dog, whose rotten teeth will soon be crushed by the mighty Russian military fist?"

Okay, so it really is just an anti-Russian thing rather than a theological or ecclessiological dispute.

You got it!  This has been my point all along!

Orthodoc

That's because you aren't listening. Sorry.

I think it is you who is not listening my Orthodox friend.

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« Reply #68 on: September 23, 2008, 03:53:20 PM »


I think it is you who is not listening my Orthodox friend.
Orthodoc

I am trying... I am saying there are no motives of "ethnic hatred" involved; the issue is in that ROC hierarchs are pursuing the political agenda of the Russian government, which is hostile to Ukraine (and I give quotes). To that, I keep hearing the same response, "It's just that you don't like Russians..."
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« Reply #69 on: September 23, 2008, 04:10:22 PM »

How can a hierarch celebrate the Divine Liturgy, during which he chants, calling people to pray "for our country and President" and simultaneously concur to the idea that this Prersident is a stinking dog?

These are words attributed to one priest, not to the hierarchy of the Ukrainian Church.

As it has been explained to me, the prayers for the "secular authorities" have nothing to do with supporting their policies.  One can certainly oppose the current president politically, but still pray for him.
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« Reply #70 on: September 23, 2008, 04:21:14 PM »

How can a hierarch celebrate the Divine Liturgy, during which he chants, calling people to pray "for our country and President" and simultaneously concur to the idea that this Prersident is a stinking dog?

These are words attributed to one priest, not to the hierarchy of the Ukrainian Church.

But this priest happens to be the head of a Synodical Committee of ROC. He is probably present a lot of times at meetings of the Holy Synod where Metr. Volodymyr Sabodan is also present.

As it has been explained to me, the prayers for the "secular authorities" have nothing to do with supporting their policies.  One can certainly oppose the current president politically, but still pray for him.

Well.  maybe it's possible to "oppose politically" and to pray, but it is hardly normal to call the President a "dog" and to threaten him by a military action...
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« Reply #71 on: September 23, 2008, 05:47:18 PM »

He was asked to retire by his Sobor due to allegations of a commonlaw wife, improper financial dealings etc etc etc. Given that I know priests who have met him and his so-called "common-law wife", as well as were told by him to explicitly not address him in Ukrainian, you have a hard sell.

The last part sounds strange to me. I heard him speak Ukrainian. His command on the Ukrainian language is very good. Maybe he speaks Russian in his everyday life, because he is a native of the Donetsk oblast, the part of the Ukrainian Southeast where the majority of people speak Russian. But that hardly makes him a "Russophile." When he speaks from a podium, he speaks very beautiful, grammatic, idiomatic Ukrainian.

And the MP in this case has authority over their bishops. They asked him to retire, he refused. Simple as that. The rest of Orthodoxy are bystanders in this issue. It is a local council issue, that was addressed by the Russians.

It should not be like that. It's just not right.

It is very strange, for a hierarch fleunt in both languages, to refuse to address a priest in Ukrainian, in a Kyivan Cathedral. Not only did he refuse to speak Ukrainian, he told the priest to speak only Russian. And yet shortly thereafter he refused to resign from the episcopacy and created a schism in the Church of God. How pleasant.
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« Reply #72 on: September 23, 2008, 06:21:00 PM »

He was asked to retire by his Sobor due to allegations of a commonlaw wife, improper financial dealings etc etc etc. Given that I know priests who have met him and his so-called "common-law wife", as well as were told by him to explicitly not address him in Ukrainian, you have a hard sell.

The last part sounds strange to me. I heard him speak Ukrainian. His command on the Ukrainian language is very good. Maybe he speaks Russian in his everyday life, because he is a native of the Donetsk oblast, the part of the Ukrainian Southeast where the majority of people speak Russian. But that hardly makes him a "Russophile." When he speaks from a podium, he speaks very beautiful, grammatic, idiomatic Ukrainian.

And the MP in this case has authority over their bishops. They asked him to retire, he refused. Simple as that. The rest of Orthodoxy are bystanders in this issue. It is a local council issue, that was addressed by the Russians.

It should not be like that. It's just not right.

It is very strange, for a hierarch fleunt in both languages, to refuse to address a priest in Ukrainian, in a Kyivan Cathedral. Not only did he refuse to speak Ukrainian, he told the priest to speak only Russian. And yet shortly thereafter he refused to resign from the episcopacy and created a schism in the Church of God. How pleasant.

From Stanford University regarding the UOC-KP and Filaret -

===========

The Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the Kyivan Patriarchate (UOC-KP)

The UOC-KP, the second largest Orthodox church with 1300 parishes and 1600 priests, is rooted in the eastern and central Ukraine and in the region of Volhynia.  Enjoying considerable popular support, it emerged in 1992 when the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church (UAOC) joined a breakaway faction of the Moscow Patriarch Church under recently ousted Metropolitan Filaret.  (Overnight he metamorphosed from an anti-Ukrainian, Soviet church bureaucrat into a militant nationalist, following the vote of 90 percent of Ukrainians for independence.)  Church historian Bohdan Bociurkiw terms the UOC-KP “a quasi-state church.”  Staunchly patriotic in its use of Ukrainian and in its unequivocal support of independent Ukrainian statehood, it was actively protected by Filaret’s political ally, former President Leonid Kravchuk. From the start the UOC-KP has been riddled by scandal.  Its first two Patriarchs, aged Mstyslav (Skrypnik) of the U.S. UAOC diaspora, who died in 1993, and Volodymyr, formerly Vasyl Romanyuk, who had spent 19 years in prison as a religious dissident, were both deeply disillusioned by Filaret’s shortcomings.  Filaret has failed to obtain coveted canonical recognition, and he has developed ties with dubious ultranationalist elements, such as the Ukrainian National Self-Defense Organization (UNSO), set on exploiting the church for political ends.   As a result, five UOC-KP bishops reestablished the UAOC in 1993, and five more UOC-KP bishops returned to the UOC-MP fold in 1994. When Patriarch Volodymyr tried to dismiss Filaret for insubordination and for his involvement in the disappearance of three million rubles from diocesan coffers, Filaret threatened his titular superior.  Before the issue could be resolved, Patriarch Volodymyr died on 14 July 1995, apparently of a heart attack.   Police and UNSO members in military uniforms intervened in his funeral on 18 July, injuring 70 participants and suffering two fatalities in a clash over his final resting place (St. Sophia Cathedral ultimately, or under a nearby sidewalk just outside the cathedral wall where the body presently is interred?).  When Filaret was elected, unopposed, as Volodymyr’s successor in October 1995, five more bishops and 20 lay electors revolted  and joined the UAOC.  Filaret’s latest strategy has been to seek reapproachment with the Ukrainian Eastern-Rite Catholic Church.  He was the only Orthodox hierarch present at the consecration of the new head of that church, Exarch Lubomir Husar of Kyiv, on 3 June 1996.  Ukrainian Catholics have come under criticism for welcoming him, given his rabidly hostile attitude towards Catholics in Communist days.

=========================

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« Reply #73 on: September 24, 2008, 09:20:42 PM »

I'm always amused hearing anti-KP people (who belong to the ROC) denounce Filaret as this immoral monster. Folks, the guy was a ROC hierarch for several decades! But it gets better: he headed the Ukrainian Exarchate (which was like half of all MP by number of the faithful). Essentially, he was BISHOP NUMBER TWO of the Russian Church. They made him locum tenens of the Patriarchate! How do his real and alleged crimes reflect on the RUSSIAN Church? Moreover, are we supposed to believe his deposition and excommunication was not politically motivated? If so, how did they suffer him for decades?

On the other hand, it's hard to accept the guy as a genuine Ukrainephile - for all the same reasons.

Ultimately, this is not about the person of Filaret (and I agree - he would do good to retire). It's simple, really:

1) Canonical UOC is part of ROC. This is just the fact. I think detractors underestimate the degree of its autonomy (after all, Met. Volodymyr is no puppet. BTW, it that historic MP elections, Met. Volodymyr Sabodan was a candidate - and he did better than Filaret, ultimately losing a run-off to Alexi by like 140 to 160). But make no mistake - MP influences the UOC a great deal, including selecting bishops and abbots. Some fairly prominent UOC bishops are known to be anti-Ukrainian.
2) Russian Church is connected to (and partly controlled by) the Russian state. No big surprise here - tell me when it weren't?
3) And Russian state, folks, is no friend to Ukraine. It just isn't. This, together with 1 and 2, made for some ugly sights - like Orthodox churches used as heavy propaganda machines for a particular political candidate (and his political party) deemed at the moment pro-Russian.

...and I'm not even touching on this Russian nationalist, Third-Rome, "one-great-undivided-Russian-nation", Ukraine-(and Belarus-) denying BS ideology that is like a crypto-dogma in the ROC, both in Russia and in Eastern-Southern Ukraine. MP will never publish any of this in any official document, but the culture can be very unwelcoming to a Ukrainian. And yes, there are Ukrainian nationalist nutcases, and yes, those are found in the KP (if in a church at all). But note that even most of those do not claim that Russians do not exist as a nation and should all just drop their silly jargon they call a language and learn proper Ukrainian. (Funny thing - leading demagogue of the infamous UNSO, after a stint as an Eastern Rite Catholic and - very publicly - providing muscle for the KP is now, apparently, a loyal son of the ROC and an instructor of Russian pro-Kremlin Nashi youth movement. He teaches them how to beat up political opponents in a street fight.)

So, you see, choices made by some Orthodox Ukrainians are understandable, if not totally justified.

(side note - no, really, how is Moscow the Mother of Kiev?)


EDIT:  Forbidden 'U' word replaced with more polite reference  -PtA
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« Reply #74 on: September 24, 2008, 09:38:11 PM »

I'm always amused hearing anti-KP people (who belong to the ROC) denounce Filaret as this immoral monster. Folks, the guy was a ROC hierarch for several decades! But it gets better: he headed the Ukrainian Exarchate (which was like half of all MP by number of the faithful). Essentially, he was BISHOP NUMBER TWO of the Russian Church. They made him locum tenens of the Patriarchate! How do his real and alleged crimes reflect on the RUSSIAN Church? Moreover, are we supposed to believe his deposition and excommunication was not politically motivated? If so, how did they suffer him for decades?

Very simple answer.  He had both the protection and backing of the communist pary!

=============

No.  The only conclusion one can come up with is that he got away with it because of his ties with the KGB and the backing of the communist party.  Once the communist influence was no more, the church did what it had to regarding this man.

After the death of Patriarch Pimen Filaret expected to become the next Patriarch of Moscow.  However, this was a free election which was not controlled by the communists.  Because of that Filaret did poorly. (see vote statistics below)

Regarding the free elections of the MP after the fall of communism -

A Long Walk To Church - A Contempory History Of Russian Orthodoxy -

In the first ballot Alexi received 139 votes, Vladimir 107, and Filaret 66.  In the runoff vote Alexi received 166 of the 309 valid votes, and Vladimir received 143.  Alexi was declared elected.
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« Reply #75 on: September 24, 2008, 10:57:05 PM »

I'm always amused hearing anti-KP people (who belong to the ROC) denounce Filaret as this immoral monster. Folks, the guy was a ROC hierarch for several decades! But it gets better: he headed the Ukrainian Exarchate (which was like half of all MP by number of the faithful). Essentially, he was BISHOP NUMBER TWO of the Russian Church. They made him locum tenens of the Patriarchate! How do his real and alleged crimes reflect on the RUSSIAN Church? Moreover, are we supposed to believe his deposition and excommunication was not politically motivated? If so, how did they suffer him for decades?

No.  The only conclusion one can come up with is that he got away with it because of his ties with the KGB and the backing of the communist party.  Once the communist influence was no more, the church did what it had to regarding this man.

So he had backing of the KGB and therefore became second-in-command of the ROC? What does it tell you about the Episcopate of that church, in general? Was he the only one with such ties? Besides, wasn't he deposed for "schismatic activities" as opposed to personal sin and KGB ties?

BTW, I don't defend Filaret much. High place in the hierarchy, travel abroad, appointment to a lucrative (and politically important due to the "threat of Ukrainian bourgeous nationalism") Kyiv see - knowing the SSSR realities, this does look like a career of a trusted KGB informant. It's just hypocritical coming from the fervent supporters of the MP. Glass house, stones, all that. Besides, my point is that Ukrainian autocephalism is not about person of Filaret. He rather might be one of the biggest obstacles for the cause of an independent Ukrainian particular Church. If he intended to reach that goal, his moves were very, very sloppy.
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« Reply #76 on: September 24, 2008, 11:10:23 PM »

...

That's what actually bothers many Ukrainian Orthodox. Why is Moscow "mother?"

It will always be Mother Church. Even if she would grant autocephalia. Just the same as EP is Mother to: Serbia, Bulgaria, Moscow and Czech and Slovak Lands (in chronological order), Alexandria is Mother to Ethiopia, while Antioch is Mother to Georgia.

Are you bothered with your mother? I love mine.

We just celebrated 1020 anniversary of the Baptism of Rus'. Moscow is 850 or so years young. Which makes the See of Kyiv like two centuries older than Moscow the city (let alone an imperial capital). Who's the Mother of who, again?
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« Reply #77 on: September 25, 2008, 10:02:42 AM »

...

That's what actually bothers many Ukrainian Orthodox. Why is Moscow "mother?"

It will always be Mother Church. Even if she would grant autocephalia. Just the same as EP is Mother to: Serbia, Bulgaria, Moscow and Czech and Slovak Lands (in chronological order), Alexandria is Mother to Ethiopia, while Antioch is Mother to Georgia.

Are you bothered with your mother? I love mine.

We just celebrated 1020 anniversary of the Baptism of Rus'. Moscow is 850 or so years young. Which makes the See of Kyiv like two centuries older than Moscow the city (let alone an imperial capital). Who's the Mother of who, again?

Comment:  Besides, my point is that Ukrainian autocephalism is not about person of Filaret. He rather might be one of the biggest obstacles for the cause of an independent Ukrainian particular Church. If he intended to reach that goal, his moves were very, very sloppy.
   
Reply:  So why are you in here defending both him and his self proclaimed autocephally?

Comment:  We just celebrated 1020 anniversary of the Baptism of Rus'. Moscow is 850 or so years young. Which makes the See of Kyiv like two centuries older than Moscow the city (let alone an imperial capital). Who's the Mother of who, again?

Reply:  Yes you celebrated the 'baptism of RUS' not Ukraine.  So we will have to agree to disagree on just what RUS comprises of.  To most people it is Russia not just Ukraine (borderland).  The autocephalous Orthodox Church created by Constaninople included all of Russia and the Northern Lands.  Not just Ukraine.  After the Tartar invasions the See was moved from Kiev to Moscow.  That is why it is recognized as the legitamite successor of the created Patriarchate by not only its mother (who created it) but by the rest of the canonical worldwide Orthodoxy.  Are you implying that a mother can not move with her household?  If my mother moved from one location to another does that mean I can no longer accept her as my legatimate mother in her hew household?

The Patriarchate of Antioch moved from Antioch to Damascus, Syria.  Does this mean that worldwide Orthodoxy should no longer recognize it as the mother of the the Patriarchate of Georgia?

Orthodoc
   
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« Reply #78 on: September 25, 2008, 11:57:27 AM »


Comment:  Besides, my point is that Ukrainian autocephalism is not about person of Filaret. He rather might be one of the biggest obstacles for the cause of an independent Ukrainian particular Church. If he intended to reach that goal, his moves were very, very sloppy.
   
Reply:  So why are you in here defending both him and his self proclaimed autocephally?

Because it's NOT JUST ABOUT HIM. Sheesh - it's right up there in the post you reply to!

Comment:  We just celebrated 1020 anniversary of the Baptism of Rus'. Moscow is 850 or so years young. Which makes the See of Kyiv like two centuries older than Moscow the city (let alone an imperial capital). Who's the Mother of who, again?

Reply:  Yes you celebrated the 'baptism of RUS' not Ukraine.  So we will have to agree to disagree on just what RUS comprises of.  To most people it is Russia not just Ukraine (borderland).  The autocephalous Orthodox Church created by Constaninople included all of Russia and the Northern Lands.  Not just Ukraine. 
The Church that got her autocephaly from Constantinople did not include Metropolis of Kyiv at all. When Muscovy acquired Ukrainian lands (Treaty of Pereyaslav), it used diplomatic pressure and bribes to transfer the Metropolis to the Patriarchate of Moscow. From what I understand, EP Synod declared the act illegal and deposed the Patriarch. This is what allowed EP to create an autocephalous Polish Church on the "canonical territory" of Kyiv Metropolis.
BTW, is it just me or do you show some of the same attitude that keeps some Ukrainians out of the Church of Moscow? "All of Russia", "just the borderland"... Ukraine is a separate nation from Russia, and sham etymology and history many in Russia (and her Church) espouse are just plain offensive. Again, I'm not saying this is the reason to keep out of a canonical Church - but this is big obstacle.
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« Reply #79 on: September 25, 2008, 02:08:15 PM »

Comment:  BTW, is it just me or do you show some of the same attitude that keeps some Ukrainians out of the Church of Moscow? "All of Russia", "just the borderland"... Ukraine is a separate nation from Russia, and sham etymology and history many in Russia (and her Church) espouse are just plain offensive. Again, I'm not saying this is the reason to keep out of a canonical Church - but this is big obstacle.
   
   
Reply:  That is because I am responding to answers that have nothing to do with the creation of an autocephalous church, the early church fathers, or the canons of the church that stipulate how and autocephalous church is created.  Instead all I have received back so far are justifications which are based on ethnic hatred and distrust,  supposed insults made, and questionable versions of history.  None of which has anything to do with the church.  What I am hearing is that some of you would rather be part of an ethnic noncanonical church based on  pthe above reasons you give.  That only proves my point that though I support an eventual autocephalous Ukrainain Church once it matures enough to understand why it is Orthodox.

So now you are also saying that the mother church (the EP) sold her children by taking bribes!

I find your last sentence contradictory.  If its not a reason to stay out of a canonical church why bring up the reasons you have to try and justify it?

Now we seem to be getting more into history than reasons to defend the UOC-KP maybe you should start a thead on Ukrainian history.

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« Reply #80 on: September 25, 2008, 02:18:30 PM »

... Which makes the See of Kyiv like two centuries older than Moscow the city (let alone an imperial capital). Who's the Mother of who, again?

See of Jerusalem is the oldest one, yet it was part of Antioch until it gained autocephalia at Ecumenical Council.

Who is the Mother of whom, again?
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« Reply #81 on: September 25, 2008, 02:22:13 PM »

.... From what I understand, EP Synod declared the act illegal and ....

Too many advocates of "Ukrainian Patriarchate" presented awkward understanding, poor reasoning and distorted history too many times.

Once you become mature, and that looks like it'll take centuries, you might eventually gain autocephalia from your Mother - Moscow.
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« Reply #82 on: September 25, 2008, 02:41:41 PM »


Moscow is NOT the mother of Ukraine.

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« Reply #83 on: September 25, 2008, 02:45:26 PM »


Moscow is NOT the mother of Ukraine.



Than who is supposed to be Mother of an Ukrainian Church?
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« Reply #84 on: September 25, 2008, 02:46:56 PM »


Moscow is NOT the mother of Ukraine.



That is right since the MP came from The Ukraine in the first place
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« Reply #85 on: September 25, 2008, 02:48:04 PM »


Moscow is NOT the mother of Ukraine.



Than who is supposed to be Mother of an Ukrainian Church?

Actualy it is the Ukriane that is the mother Church
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« Reply #86 on: September 25, 2008, 02:55:26 PM »


Moscow is NOT the mother of Ukraine.



Than who is supposed to be Mother of an Ukrainian Church?

Actualy it is the Ukriane that is the mother Church

Listen, pal, you might fool someone to be an Orthodox Priest, but I'm not among these. You feature fundamental misunderstanding of the term "Mother" and are confusing it with geography.

So, spare me a trouble and don't address your stupidities to me - I'm debating with Heorhij, Stanislav and my sister Lisa. You are free to support them, but don't quote me, don't address me, avoid me in a wide circle.
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« Reply #87 on: September 25, 2008, 03:17:41 PM »


Reply:  That is because I am responding to answers that have nothing to do with the creation of an autocephalous church, the early church fathers, or the canons of the church that stipulate how and autocephalous church is created.
 

To be fair, Canons do not really stipulate "how and autocephalous church is created". That's why the creation of each new Church is a new ad hoc struggle - look at the OCA. Now, it seems that Filaret broke Holy Canons - that's why the other Churches treat him as radioactive. He thought that if he will just have buildings, bank account and State support from Kravchuk everyone will recognize him - no matter how he got those things.
Instead all I have received back so far are justifications which are based on ethnic hatred and distrust,  supposed insults made, and questionable versions of history.
Corrections: it is justified distrust, demonstrated agenda and real history (and modern reality).
  None of which has anything to do with the church. 
Fair enough.
What I am hearing is that some of you would rather be part of an ethnic noncanonical church based on  pthe above reasons you give. 
SOME are, indeed, nationalists and would rather be a part of a non-canonical ethnic church. Many, many others just find it difficult to be a part of a canonical ethnic church openly hostile to one's own nation. You're not telling me that there is no phyletism in Russian Church, or that Russian chauvinism (what passes for "patriotism" and even "Orthodoxy" nowadays, and is silently supported by government) is not hostile to Ukraine?
That only proves my point that though I support an eventual autocephalous Ukrainain Church once it matures enough to understand why it is Orthodox.

Right, and in the meantime, leave people in a church your own bishops declared "devoid of grace". No valid sacraments. That, to me, is an amazing display of true Christian charity.  Huh
So now you are also saying that the mother church (the EP) sold her children by taking bribes!
The Patriarch did. And the Moscow bought. This is not a matter of opinion btw: IIRC said Patriarch was deposed the next year for simony, ant the transaction reversed by Synod. Of course, they had no real power to enforce said decision on the territory where Russian Empire asserted control. (Side note: if one side sells, and other buys ecclesial authority: aren't both guilty of the same sin?)

I find your last sentence contradictory.  If its not a reason to stay out of a canonical church why bring up the reasons you have to try and justify it?
That's because writing that post, I had temporary brain halt and forgot the word "temptation" in English. Those are not valid reasons, but they are real enough to create an enormous temptation for many, many people to avoid the canonical jurisdiction. Imagine American Revolutionaries finding themselves in a Church where priests openly preach anathema to anyone daring to oppose King George. Or blacks in a Church where bishops openly preach racism and slavery. Would you then blame them (and be really surprised) when they'll follow a demagogue Bishop into schism?
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Stanislav
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« Reply #88 on: September 25, 2008, 03:26:43 PM »

.... From what I understand, EP Synod declared the act illegal and ....

Too many advocates of "Ukrainian Patriarchate" presented awkward understanding, poor reasoning and distorted history too many times.

Once you become mature, and that looks like it'll take centuries, you might eventually gain autocephalia from your Mother - Moscow.

So why don't you demonstrate your superior wisdom and dazzle us with the truth you obviously possess? How DID Moscow gain jurisdiction over Kyiv? I usually hear that "Kyiv Metropolitan moved to Vladimir then Moscow" - but that would make say St. Petro Mohyla an uncanonical bishop, which is clearly not the case.

No one is really "mature", and coming from a supporter of Moscow, this is highly pretentious. We will gain autocephaly when the Lord thinks it is time. It might take centuries, it might happen tomorrow - and not necessarily (although not unlikely) from Moscow.
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« Reply #89 on: September 25, 2008, 03:27:50 PM »

... (Side note: if one side sells, and other buys ecclesial authority: aren't both guilty of the same sin?)

There was no purchase of ecclessial authority in what you were describing. No one was proclaimed bishop, or a priest, or a diacon.

Imagine American Revolutionaries finding themselves in a Church where priests openly preach anathema to anyone daring to oppose King George. Or blacks in a Church where bishops openly preach racism and slavery. Would you then blame them (and be really surprised) when they'll follow a demagogue Bishop into schism?

Completely false analogy. Bishops and Priest of Church in Ukraine (UOC - MP) are mostly Ukrainians. Are you claiming that they hate themselves, their own ethnicity, and campaign against it?
« Last Edit: September 25, 2008, 03:28:09 PM by orthodoxlurker » Logged

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