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Author Topic: 20 Torments  (Read 10021 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #135 on: May 20, 2009, 04:03:50 AM »

Look who's taking his bat n  ball and going home Cry
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« Reply #136 on: May 20, 2009, 05:04:31 AM »

Every single Orthodox liturgical service (Divine Liturgy, Vespers, Matins, Compline, Midnight Office, Requiem, Marriage, Funeral, Baptism, etc) are so stuffed full of scripture (OT and NT). it ain't funny. To claim the Orthodox Church rejects the NT is simply laughable, as others on this forum have correctly pointed out.

You have a very serious grudge against Orthodoxy, through the perhaps careless action of one priest with reagrd to your dying mother. To tar and feather Orthodoxy on this one incident is ridiculous. Regarding sola scriptura, so many on this thread have shown lime and again that scripture did not fall out of the sky, but that the Church of the Apostles, the Orthodox Church, determined which books made it into canon. Numerology had absolutely nothing to do with it, and it is an insult to the Apostles, the holy Fathers, and to the teachings of Christ Himself to suggest that it did. Numerology is a pagan pursuit, incompatible with Christianity, yet you use it to defend your mistaken position.
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« Reply #137 on: May 20, 2009, 05:11:14 AM »

It's not Numerology. There are no predictions made. It's only used to prove GOD'S input
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« Reply #138 on: May 20, 2009, 05:12:25 AM »

I suppose desecrating a corpse is OK?
« Last Edit: May 20, 2009, 05:13:06 AM by Pap » Logged
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« Reply #139 on: May 20, 2009, 05:32:53 AM »

I suppose desecrating a corpse is OK?

Desecrating? Corpse? Euphemia was already a proclaimed saint before her posthumous endorsement of Orthodox doctrine. God is the God of the living, not of the dead. The saints and righteous ones are alive in Christ, though their earthly lives have ended.
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« Reply #140 on: May 20, 2009, 06:02:01 AM »

I suppose desecrating a corpse is OK?

Desecrating? Corpse? Euphemia was already a proclaimed saint before her posthumous endorsement of Orthodox doctrine. God is the God of the living, not of the dead. The saints and righteous ones are alive in Christ, though their earthly lives have ended.

Numerology Bad.
Desecrating Good. Haha.
If I use your logic, the numbers are in the Bible. So the Orthodox Church compiled the Bible Therefore numerology in the Bible is OK
My dear lost friend. What is a Saint? You people can't even judge yourselves, how can you know what is in the heart of a future Saint? The Bible says we are the saints, not an elect few that the Church chooses.
Who's righteous? I can name you at least a dozen righteous people who think nothing of giving away all their possessions and risk their lives to evangelize the world. Are they Saints with a capital S ? NO! Just saints.
BTW. That line that you spin; "God is the God of the living, not of the dead" doesn't wash.
I know many SDA's who have a similar line that they spin; GOD is a loving GOD he wouldn't........"
That is a mark of a CULT! Once you start using human reasoning, you deny Christ's sacrifice.
News Flash
Every Church has a relic from its Saint. Apparently a study has revealed that most saints must have had 15 fingers on each hand and 13 heads. There is an international market for Saint relics. Once a market is created, it invites corruption. How much would you pay for the finger of your favorite Saint?
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« Reply #141 on: May 20, 2009, 06:13:41 AM »

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How much would you pay for the finger of your favorite Saint?

Holy relics are not trophies or keepsakes to be "collected" as one collects matchbooks, baseball cards or Ming dynasty porcelain. Holy relics are priceless vessels of the grace of God, and therefore to suggest that I would be willing to pay for a relic is utterly abominable.

If anyone were to give me a holy relic, I would treasure and honor it by embedding it in an icon of that saint, and donating that icon to my church so that as many people as possible could have the privilege of praying to, and honoring that saint through the veneration of his or her icon. But such ideas and practices are perhaps beyond your understanding.  Sad
« Last Edit: May 20, 2009, 06:14:06 AM by LBK » Logged
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« Reply #142 on: May 20, 2009, 06:33:30 AM »

Pray to it?
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« Reply #143 on: May 20, 2009, 06:46:18 AM »

You obviously have not read my post, or have chosen to misinterpret and distort it to fit your own mistaken ideas. This is what I wrote:

Quote
praying to, and honoring that saint through the veneration of his or her icon.
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« Reply #144 on: May 20, 2009, 07:02:11 AM »

Why won't you watch this short video? I guarentee you will be impressed.

http://www.tangle.com/view_video.php?viewkey=cecdb33a38d06b187a2d

(Rev 22:19 KJV)  And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.


Impressed by one a continual parade of Bible proving alleged experts? Why not add the Bible Code to your sales pitch?
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« Reply #145 on: May 20, 2009, 08:21:26 AM »

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Then there is no need for you to be anxious that the Orthodox and the Catholics, etc. will not go to Heaven.  By your own teaching we will be there.

So why be so concerned about our doctrines?   They don't change the fact that we believe in Christ and will be in Heaven.
You won't be there because if you are an Orthodox you pray to Mary and the Saints.

See, now you are just making up new rules so you can play God and exclude us from Heaven.

At first you said:

"My GOD tells me in HIS book, The BIBLE, that all believers in Christ will go to Heaven."


Quote
Jesus said to pray to Him.

Oops, you haven't read the Bible, have you?   NOWHERE does it tell us to pray to Jesus.  The most it tells us is to pray to the Father in Jesus' name.  This is a sticky point which Protestants admit when pushed but they always ignore it anway.  Praying to Jesus is not scriptural.  If you are sola scriptura STOP DOING IT!
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« Reply #146 on: May 20, 2009, 08:33:01 AM »

When I was Orthodox I was under the impression that the Bible was a GOD inspired book. With all their faults our uneducated priests never denied that it was the "word of GOD". Now you're trying to tell me it isn't?

As others have already said, the Word of God is Christ. The written Bible is a part of what we call the Holy Tradition of the Church. There are many other parts of it.

I suppose the Bible contradicts the beliefes of the Church in many ways, so the best defence is attack.

The Church interprets the Bible, not individual humans who tend to read a lot of things into it.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2009, 08:52:33 AM by Heorhij » Logged

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« Reply #147 on: May 20, 2009, 08:40:54 AM »

I'm going to encourage any further participation in this thread to respond to the substantive arguments Pap has made, and not to the Trolling statements and innuendo in his posts.
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« Reply #148 on: May 20, 2009, 08:54:40 AM »

I'm going to encourage any further participation in this thread to respond to the substantive arguments Pap has made, and not to the Trolling statements and innuendo in his posts.
And I am going to watch this thread, and if I see insulting remarks made, I may lock it. -Heorhij, section mod.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2009, 08:55:19 AM by Heorhij » Logged

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« Reply #149 on: May 20, 2009, 09:56:47 AM »

It's not Numerology. There are no predictions made. It's only used to prove GOD'S input
What is your point? The Bible IS inspired BY GOD. Why else would the Orthodox hold it in such high regard? You need to answer a couple questions for a minute.
1) If the Bible is all we need, and SO clear in its message, why can't the Protestants agree on what it has to say? Almost every doctrine has multiple interpretations in the Protestant World.
2) If we are "once saved always saved", as you claim is the truth, how do you KNOW 100% that you are part of the ELECT that will go to Heaven? You say that we can't say 100% that WE KNOW, how do you know?
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« Reply #150 on: May 23, 2009, 03:51:19 PM »

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My dear lost friend. What is a Saint? You people can't even judge yourselves, how can you know what is in the heart of a future Saint? The Bible says we are the saints, not an elect few that the Church chooses.

You are very mistaken on the Orthodox idea of a saint. The Church recognizes people who led exceptionally holy lives as saints, but there are many many more saints that have probably been forgotten.

I'm not sure if you have ever been to an Orthodox liturgy, but when the priest censes the church he doesn't just cense the icons of saints, but he censes the people too. The reason being is what you just said: "The Bible says we are the saints."
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« Reply #151 on: May 23, 2009, 04:37:45 PM »


Quote
Yeh! How long did it take for the Church to ALLOW the public to read the Bible?
We were commanded to read it but the Church hid it from us. Thank GOD for the reformers.
Rev 1:3  Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Quote
Yes, the Church hid it from us, that's why it is being read from the pulpit during Divine Liturgy, and processed in ceremony before being opened for the readings

Quote
So the Church was in error in the past?

I just had to point this out Pap, but sohma_ha was being facetious. The Orthodox liturgy has always had scripture readings in its 2000 year history; we even have church services where the entire gospel books are chanted out loud during Holy Week.

I think you are also misinterpreting our view of Biblical Infallibility. The Church teaches that the Bible is theologically infallible, but not scientifically infallible (the Bible should not be used as a science book). Sure, there are many things (as you pointed out) that have been proven to be scientifically and mathematically beneficial (like pi), but it doesn't mean everything is scientifically perfect. Either way, it is irrelevant to the Christian faith whether or not the Bible correctly calculated pi, it's the theology that matters.
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« Reply #152 on: May 24, 2009, 03:36:13 AM »

Indeed, I was being sarcastic on that qoute Pap..


Quote
Yeh! How long did it take for the Church to ALLOW the public to read the Bible?
We were commanded to read it but the Church hid it from us. Thank GOD for the reformers.
Rev 1:3  Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Quote
Yes, the Church hid it from us, that's why it is being read from the pulpit during Divine Liturgy, and processed in ceremony before being opened for the readings

Quote
So the Church was in error in the past?

I just had to point this out Pap, but sohma_ha was being facetious. The Orthodox liturgy has always had scripture readings in its 2000 year history; we even have church services where the entire gospel books are chanted out loud during Holy Week.

I think you are also misinterpreting our view of Biblical Infallibility. The Church teaches that the Bible is theologically infallible, but not scientifically infallible (the Bible should not be used as a science book). Sure, there are many things (as you pointed out) that have been proven to be scientifically and mathematically beneficial (like pi), but it doesn't mean everything is scientifically perfect. Either way, it is irrelevant to the Christian faith whether or not the Bible correctly calculated pi, it's the theology that matters.

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« Reply #153 on: May 24, 2009, 03:44:47 AM »

Quote
Then there is no need for you to be anxious that the Orthodox and the Catholics, etc. will not go to Heaven.  By your own teaching we will be there.

So why be so concerned about our doctrines?   They don't change the fact that we believe in Christ and will be in Heaven.
You won't be there because if you are an Orthodox you pray to Mary and the Saints. (BTW the Bible says we [the believers] are all Saints)
Jesus said to pray to Him. He is a jealus God. Nobody comes to the Father except through Him etc.

There are many instances in the Bible where Old Testament Holy People prayed to God saying, "God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.. etc".. You know why? Because, THEY DO INTERCEDE FOR US, and what's more Pap, THERE INTERCESSION ACTUALLY MATTERS (Roll Eyes

If God, would hear the prayers of this people for the sake of the prayers of those who intercede for us, how much more for us Christians when those who have led righteous lives that have gone before, would actually PRAY FOR US HERE ON EARTH.. What a joy it is and a blessing for us, that the saints pray for us!
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