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Author Topic: The Canonical Declaration of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (Kyiv Patriarchate)  (Read 18094 times) Average Rating: 0
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Heorhij
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« on: September 19, 2008, 12:12:02 PM »

Here are the two links to its English translation:

http://www.uaorthodox.info/images/mod_catalog_prod_files/20/DEKLARACIA_ENG.doc

http://tinyurl.com/3w7npn

I wonder, where do you experts find something wrong in it?

Thanks,

George
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« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2008, 12:35:27 PM »

Here are the two links to its English translation:

http://www.uaorthodox.info/images/mod_catalog_prod_files/20/DEKLARACIA_ENG.doc

http://tinyurl.com/3w7npn

I wonder, where do you experts find something wrong in it?

Thanks,

George

From my files.  This is why no canonical Orthodox Church worldwide consisders either UAOC UOC-KP as non-canonical.

==========

Both the Kyivan Patriachate (further addressed as "K.P.") and the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church (further addressed as "UAOC") are neither part of "World Orthodoxy." This fact has roots in historical developments as well as more current affairs. I will try to address both.
    The Ukrainian Autocephalous Church movement began at the end of WWI era-it was based then (as it is now) more on Ukrainian natioanalism than on anything else. The atmopsphere in Russia at that time was fueled not only by bolshevism, but by nationalism, and by an urge to "reform" the Russian Orthodox Church, greatly spurred on and supported by the bolsheviks, to help them destroy the canonical Russian Orthodox Church.

    In situations like this-a wartorn nation that is on the brink of revolution and "the overturning of all values," those who wish to change the way things are can usually find all the help they need. As an Orthodox Church cannot operate without Bishops, it would have seemed that at that time, the Ukrainian natioalists would have had absolutely no trouble finding a few disenchanted Bishops of the Russian Church to aid their cause, but that was not the case. In an area of Russia that held possibly the largest concentration of Orthodox, not one Orthodox Bishop would assist the Ukrainian natioalist cause to create a Ukrainian Church. At the Council held to create the Ukrainian Autocephalous Church, version 1, those deisring to create the Church turned to a novel solution tho their problem-they had all the priests present at the Council "lay hands" upon their candidate for Bishop, whom they then declared a Bishop! Another group turned to an even more novel solution, and had an able assistant lay the hand of a dead Bishop on their candidate, and then declared him a "new Bishop." Of course, this group has been known as the "dead hand group" ever since.

   The Ukrainian nationalists who wanted thier own Ukrainian Church were also greatly influenced by Renovationism and the Living Church, a group suppored by the bolsheviks to destroy the Russian Church with several reforms-married bishops, twice married clergy, severe curtailing of the Divine Services, severe curtailing or abandonment of the fasts, adoption of the New Calendar, etc etc etc. Because of the situation with their "Bishops," and basic adoption of the renovationist agenda, no canonical Orthodox Church at that time recognized the Ukrainian Church as legitimate. After the Russian Civil War, when the bolsheviks tightened their grip on the country, they liquidated the Ukrainian Church completely, as it was no longer necessaryto their agenda, and even dengerous in its nationalist leanings.

    A few Ukrainians emigrated to the US after this period, where they started Ukrainian Churches-eventually-in the 1920's or 1930's. The Ukrainian Church of America arranged to go under the jurisdiction of the Ecumenical Patriarchate, while the Ukrainian Church of the USA remained "independent."

   The Ukrainian Church raised its head again in the WWII era, mainly when the Germans occupied the Ukriane, and were tolerant of Ukrainian nationalism as a way of fighting what they perceived as "Russian communism." This time, a few disenchanted M.P. Bishops DID join up, but they allowed many of the priests who had been ordained by the illegitimate "Bishops" of the WWI era Ukrainian Church to continue to serve, so, again, canonical Orthodoxy had nothing to do with this Ukrainian Church. Even though the Church of Poland DID consecrate a few Bishops for them, mainly because Metropolitan Dionisy (Waledinsky) of Warsaw hoped that this would give him an "in" to end up controlling the Ukrainian Church, still, canonical Orthodoxy would not "touch them with a ten foot pole." The issue of the priests with invalid ordinations was still prominent, as well as the fact that Orthodox Churches cannot be "started" by groups with no support from an already existing legitimate Church. No Orthodox Church of "World Orthodoxy" wanted to set that precedent!

   After WWII, the Ukrainian Church in Ukraine was once again liquidated by the KGB, with help from the MP (as the MP assisted with the liquidation of the Uniates in the Ukriane). It survived in "the diaspora," mainly Western Europe, North America and Australia. The "of America" church under the EP and the "of the USA" independent church, both headquartered in the US, were the largest groups, with the "of the USA" church being by far the largest. When communism fell and the Soviet Union disintegrated, the Ukrainian Church once again began to reorganize in Ukraine. The K.P. is basically a schism from the MP-its "Patriarch," Filaret (Denisenko), was defrocked and returned to the status of a "simple monk" by the MP because he openly lived with a mistress and their children while he was head of the MP autonomous "Ukrainian Church," and also for his widely known and notorious cooperation and whole hearted work for the KGB. He was the ONLY MP Hierarch deposed for his KGB connections! Also, his schismatic proclivities did not help his case with the MP! The K.P., by the way, has really little or no historical connection to any Ukrainian church that came before it. The same with the UAOC-communism fell, all of a sudden, "anything went," so some opportunistic fellows started themselves a Church! This organization, too, had little or no connection to the historical Ukrainian Autocephalous groups.

   The Ukrainian groups were prolific if nothing else-there were countless numbers of Ukrainian churches claiming to be THE Ukrainian Orthodox Church-The Ukrainian Church of America; the Ukrainian Church of the USA; the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church; the Autocephalous Ukrainian Orthodox Church; the Ukrainian Orthodox Autocephalous Church in Exile; the list is long, the list is seemingly never-ending, and the list is peopled by many many many charlatans and fakes who thought going in to the Church Business would be a swell idea.

    You know what they say about "birds of a feather"-the same thing goes in church situations, the only churches "concelebrating" with either the K.P. or the UAOC being churches of similar "canonical" status-the "Macedonian Orthodox Church" shares in the church celebrations of the K.P.; and, so-called "True Orthodox" groups-the ones that are seriously only "in it for the money" also concelebrate with different Ukrainian groups-one "True Orthodox" group claims that one of the Ukrainian groups helped them to "restore their episcopacy" by consecrating Bishops for them-and believe me, ANY True Orthodox Christian would KNOW that these Ukrainian groups had no episcopacy to begin with-so how could they help them restore theirs? While "World Orthodoxy" wants nothing to do with either the KP or the UAOC, any Traditionalist Orthodox, True Orthodox, etc., would be even more stringent against any contact with them.

 ============================

Orthodoc

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« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2008, 01:47:32 PM »

Orthodoc, thank you for your perspective.

Right away, I am not inclined to listen to stories about Filaret's cooperation with the KGB. In the days of the USSR, virtually any priest had to meet with KGB officers and report on his faithful. It was routine. There are numerous testimonies that the current incumbent Patriarch of Moscow and all Russia, His Holiness Aleksiy II (Ridiger) also cooperated with the KGB, serving as an undercover KGB agent with a nickname "Drozdov." I don't know whether those testimonies OR the testimonies about Filaret (Denysenko) are truthful - but it really does not matter now.

As far as the current status of the schismatic UAOC and UOC-KP: yes, I do realize that no bishop wants to deal with them, and they aren't in the Eucharistic unity with the Orthodox world. But what do you offer, then, to those Ukrainian Orthodox people (like myself), who have strong patriotic feelings? Right now, the official line of the Moscow Patriarchy is very pro-Russian, pro-imperialist, pro-militaristic. Just a few days ago, the head of one of the so-called "synodical committees" of the Moscow Patriarchy, Protopresbyter Dmitriy Smirnov, called Ukraine and other non-Russian post-Soviet republics "little stinking yapping dogs" (моськи и шавки) who deserve to have their rotten teeth crushed by the mighty Russian military fist. And that was in his OFFICIAL interview given to a Russkaya Linia information agency (see here, http://www.pravoslavja.lutsk.ua/vev/stattja?newsid=890). If I were living in Ukraine right now, I would not go to a canonical UOC parish, given this attitude of an official representative of the Moscow Patriarch to my country. UOC is not autocephalous; it dumped the letters MP from its official name, but, nevertheless, her head, Metropolitan Volodymyr Sabodan, is answering to Patr. Alexiy, and so he, in a way, is in the same group of people as Prot. Fr. Dmitriy Smirnov!!!

Right now, my wife and I technically belong to an entirely different Orthodox jurisdiction, the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese in the USA. But sometimes we think about retiring back to our home country in the future, when we are 65 or so. Where would we go to church?
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« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2008, 02:05:01 PM »

But what do you offer, then, to those Ukrainian Orthodox people (like myself), who have strong patriotic feelings?

Please don't take this the wrong way, since there are many political issues that I have strong feelings on as well.  But in my view, "strong patriotic feelings" have no place in a discussion of the canonical order of the Church.  Whatever the merits of Ukrainian (or any) nationalism, it is not a matter of faith.
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« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2008, 02:10:36 PM »

But what do you offer, then, to those Ukrainian Orthodox people (like myself), who have strong patriotic feelings?

Please don't take this the wrong way, since there are many political issues that I have strong feelings on as well.  But in my view, "strong patriotic feelings" have no place in a discussion of the canonical order of the Church.  Whatever the merits of Ukrainian (or any) nationalism, it is not a matter of faith.

Maksim, I understand that... what I am saying is simply, can't the Orthodox world at least begin a dialogue aimed at recognition of a fully autonomous Ukrainian Orthodox Church? Yes, nationalism is not a matter of faith; however, practically, can you imagine yourself, an American, attending an Orthodox parish somewhere in Britain of the 1770's, where a priest would hold a view that the USA does not exist nor has any right to exist, that those subjects of King George V who dare to not like his politics are merely "yapping dogs" whose rotten teeth will soon be crushed, etc.?
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« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2008, 04:05:03 PM »

Maksim, I understand that... what I am saying is simply, can't the Orthodox world at least begin a dialogue aimed at recognition of a fully autonomous Ukrainian Orthodox Church? Yes, nationalism is not a matter of faith; however, practically, can you imagine yourself, an American, attending an Orthodox parish somewhere in Britain of the 1770's, where a priest would hold a view that the USA does not exist nor has any right to exist, that those subjects of King George V who dare to not like his politics are merely "yapping dogs" whose rotten teeth will soon be crushed, etc.?

Well, of course, in the 1770s, we DIDN'T exist for the most part as a country, so the situation you suggest probably did occur in Britain, and often at that.  Truly, in the realm of world politics, when one people tries to move out from under the powers that be, the rest of the world either takes a "wait and see" policy (to see if the would-be independents actually claw their way free), or they intervene on one side or another.  In the meantime, both interested parties in the conflict are vehement in their opposing positions.  The American colonies fought their way free, and were eventually recognized de facto, even by Britain. 

Regardless, whether or not the actual, geographical country is eventually recognized as legitimate and independent by the rest of the world, said independence will not necessarily guarantee a movement within the Church towards an autocephalous Church of said country.  Given this country's current example: The US is much more universally recognized as independent from Britain than Ukraine from Russia (politically speaking), yet the Patriarchs of the Church feel no need to allow for their archdioceses here to become independent, much less feel obligated to recognize any sort of American Patriarch were said archdioceses to become independent.

Is all this tied to politics?  Often and inextricably, yes.  Is it maddening for those who must be associated ecclesiastically with political entities whom they despise?  Yes, though I'd posit that that could be an opportunity for forgiveness and humility on those who've been maddened (easier said than done, of course).  Situations such as these remind me -- a man who is very proud of his own, ancestral region in this country, and who remembers that said region bravely fought and had its "teeth crushed" in fighting for self-determination -- that, at the end of the day, we have no lasting city here on this planet.  Though our hierarchs may even come from "behind enemy lines" politically speaking, all our flags' colors must be furled beneath the one Banner of the Cross.
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« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2008, 04:38:30 PM »

Well, as far as the American Revolution is concerned, the Church of England came around right away to the notion that a separate country required a separate church. The only reason they didn't consecrate Samuel Seabury was that it took an act of parliament (literally) to get rid of the requirement to swear an oath of allegiance to the British crown. (In the meantime Seabury was consecrated by the non-jurors.) There was something of a low level grievance before the war that there were no bishops in the colonies, meaning that all clergy had to be imported from England.
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« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2008, 05:32:45 PM »


What I think Heorhij is getting at is that it smarts to be told you must bow down to a church belonging to a nation that has for years been trying to smother your nation's existence.

For example, lets say that Canadians have invaded the US.  They've told you that all things American are bad and worthless. 

Now, the US and Canada have a shared religion.  No issues, right?  Wrong.  Now you are told you are to bow down to the Canadian hierarchs because yours are not "real".  In addition, you now have to speak and pray in Canadian (lets pretend Canadian sounds nothing like English, aye?)

Faith outranks nationality....there's no question....however, it hurts to be told your nation is worthless and you are not even valued enough to have your own church or hierarchs. 

How would that feel to you?

I would defend Orthodoxy against ANY non-Orthodox nation.  I don't care if they are Russian, Serbian, Coptic, etc.  They are my brothers and I would stand by them.

However, I would also prefer to have a little respect meted out to Ukrainians.  St. Thomas walked on Ukrainian soil.  Prince Volodymir baptized Rus (which is not Russia), in Ukraine.  There are countless Saints who have haled from Ukraine.  Ukrainians have gone through a lot and have kept their faith alive.  Twenty years ago, who would have thought the end of Communism would come?  I never thought I would see it in my lifetime.  And yet....God made it so the Communist yoke fell off Ukraine without one drop of blood being spilled.  It just disintegrated....like wax before a flame.

I don't think either one of the current hierarchs sitting in Ukraine is worthy to lead a Ukrainian church.  Neither one.   In fact, they are doing nothing but causing strife and dividing their people.  They should ALL step down...but, their pride is in their way.

Having said that, I would LOVE to one day be able to say there's an independent, recognized Ukrainian Orthodox church, in Ukraine. 

There are "national" churches throughout the world - Serbian, Coptic, Romanian, Russian, etc....why not Ukrainian?

There's no need to argue.  All in God's time. 
All things are possible!

Peace!


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« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2008, 06:04:37 PM »

The problem being that Philaret only left the MP as they were forcing him to resign (for valid canonical reasons) and he is no Ukrainian patriot.
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« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2008, 06:15:59 PM »


I agree with you.  He absolutely is NOT a Ukrainian patriot!

...and he certainly does not deserve the honor being given him.

He will have much to answer for, some day.
...pretending to be a shepherd...and the whole time leading the flock astray.

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« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2008, 06:54:59 PM »



(1)  Faith outranks nationality....there's no question....however, it hurts to be told your nation is worthless and you are not even valued enough to have your own church or hierarchs. 

How would that feel to you?

(2) I would defend Orthodoxy against ANY non-Orthodox nation.  I don't care if they are Russian, Serbian, Coptic, etc.  They are my brothers and I would stand by them.

(3) I don't think either one of the current hierarchs sitting in Ukraine is worthy to lead a Ukrainian church.  Neither one.   In fact, they are doing nothing but causing strife and dividing their people.  They should ALL step down...but, their pride is in their way.

(4)  Having said that, I would LOVE to one day be able to say there's an independent, recognized Ukrainian Orthodox church, in Ukraine. 

There are "national" churches throughout the world - Serbian, Coptic, Romanian, Russian, etc....why not Ukrainian?

There's no need to argue.  (5) All in God's time. 
All things are possible!

Peace!



Replies: 

(1)  I have mixed feelings about an autocephalous Ukrainian Church AT THIS TIME.  There are times I support it, but then there are times I read things printed by some Ukrainians (both Orthodox & Greek Catholic) who have no idea what the Church stands for and mix religion & politics as a result.  And I wonder if it isn't wise to let them have automony for at least another generation until they are mature enough for autocephally.  So to give an honest answer - Yes I hope and pray for an eventual autocephallous Ukrainian Orthodox Church but I'm not sure this is the time.

My own priest is in his mid thirties and was born and raised in Ukraine (Kiev).  He said it's almost impossible to have a religious or theological conversation with most of these people from both non-canonical churches.  All they want to talk about are traditions and customs.  What is served at Holy Supper is more important to them then the theological issues that separate we Orthodox from non-Orthodox.

(2)  I feel the same way my sister in Christ!  I love all Orthodox, both canonical and non-canonical!  No way do I believe God turns his back on the Baba that loves Him so much just because she's under the wrong bishop!  God knows who loves Him and makes allowances for the problems in His Church made by man.  So to answer Heorhij, if you and your wife go back, go to the Church you feel comfortable in and pray for unity.  St John Chrysostm once said the path to hell is paved with the skulls of bishops.  Ukraine is a perfect example of what he means.

(3)  I agree!

(4)  So do I, but I don't honestly believe the Ukrainian Church is ready.  First they have to learn to distinguish bettween religion, plolitics, traditions, and nationality.

(5)  Yes.  God's time.  Not ours.

Orthodoc



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« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2008, 07:03:38 PM »


I agree with you.  He absolutely is NOT a Ukrainian patriot!

...and he certainly does not deserve the honor being given him.

He will have much to answer for, some day.
...pretending to be a shepherd...and the whole time leading the flock astray.



Couldn't agree more.  He only became a Ukrainophile when he wasn't elected Patriarch of Moscow.  Not to mention his wife and kids.

===============

ACT OF EXCOMMUNICATION of the monk Filaret Denisenko


1. The blessed Bishops' Council considered the antichurch activities of the monk Filaret Denisenko who was deprived of all priestly ranks by a Court order of the Bishops' Council on 11 June 1992 and who was warned by the Bishops' Council of 1994 that "should he continue to act uncanonically he will be excommunicated by anathema".

The blessed Bishops' Council now has to state with regret that the monk Filaret has not heeded the call addressed to him by the Mother Church to repent and in the period between Councils has continued his schismatic activities which he extended beyond the Russian Orthodox Church by facilitating the deepening of the schism in the fraternal Bulgarian Orthodox Church and by taking into communion schismatics from other Local Orthodox Churches; criminally ignoring the grounded banishment imposed by the lawful church authorities - his deposition - he has continued to perform sacrilegious "divine services", including blasphemous false consecrations without possessing the holy priesthood; the monk Filaret, to the temptation of many, has dared to call himself "patriarch of Kiev and Rus-Ukraine", while the ancient throne of Kiev is lawfully occupied by a canonical representative of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church in the rank of metropolitan; the monk Filaret has not ceased to blaspheme against the bishops, clergy and the faithful of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church which is in canonical communion with the Russian Orthodox Church and through her with the universal Orthodox Church, continuing to harm Orthodoxy in Ukraine by his criminal actions.

In view of the aforesaid, the blessed Bishops' Council on the basis of Apostolic canon 28 which says : "If a bishop, or a presbyter, or a deacon, lawfully deposed for his apparent faults dares to perform services once entrusted to him, he will be completely cut off from the Church", and also on the basis of canon 14 of the Council of Sardica, canon 4 of the Council of Antioch, and rule 88 of St.Basil the Great, unanimously decided:

To excommunicate monk Filaret (Mikhail Antonovich Denisenko). Let him be anathema before all people.

2. The blessed Bishops' Council, in view of the lack of repentance on the part of the monks Iakov Panchuk and Andrey Gorak, who participate in the criminal schismatic activities of the former monk Filaret, once again calls them to repent and stop these blasphemous outrages and warns them that otherwise they will be excommunicated by anathema.

3. The blessed Bishops' Council, caring for those who have erred and have been drawn into schism by the former monk Filaret, reminds all who dare communicate with him in prayers that according to the sacred canons, they, in case they do not break this communion, are subject to excommunication. St.Basil the Great said in rule 88, warning Protopresbyter Gregory whom he suspended: "If you without correcting yourself dare to celebrate, you will be anathema before all people, and those who accept you will be excommunicated".

4. The blessed Bishops' Council informs the Primates of the Local Orthodox Church of the excommunication of the former monk Filaret (Mikhail Antonovich Denisenko) by anathema.

====================


Filaret - Autobiography

He was born into a working-class family in the Donbas region of Ukraine in 1926. He graduated from the Odessa Seminary and the Moscow Spiritual Academy. He took monastic vows during his second year at the Academy and was a close associate of Patriarch Alexei I of Moscow. After graduating from the Academy he taught in seminaries and academies and was rector of the Kyiv Seminary.

In 1962 he received episcopal ordination. In 1966 he was named archbishop and later metropolitan of Kyiv and Halych; he was the first ethnic Ukrainian in the post of Metropolitan of Kyiv for 150 years. He has taken active part in international religious organizations. He has traveled to more than 80 countries, has a great number of Church awards and also received Soviet honors.

Consistently opposed to the idea of an Autocephalous Ukrainian Church and the Greek Catholic Church, he criticized Ukrainian nationalism. On the eve of a national referendum in March 1991, he called his faithful to vote in favor of the renewal of the USSR. At the same time, from the very beginning of Mikhail Gorbachev’s reforms, Filaret made significant efforts to renew the Church’s infrastructure and Church life.

In 1990 after the death of Pimen, Patriarch of Moscow and All Rus, Filaret became the administrator of the Moscow Patriarchate. In October of that year the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Moscow Patriarchate received the right to govern itself and Filaret received the title «Metropolitan of Kyiv and All Ukraine.»

After the dissolution of the USSR he led a movement for «full canonical independence, namely, autocephaly» for his Church. In November 1991 he headed a working council which requested the hierarchy of the Russian Orthodox Church to grant the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Moscow Patriarchate autocephalous status. Leonid Kravchuk, then President of Ukraine, supported the request but the Moscow Patriarchate strongly opposed it.

Soon afterwards a number of articles appeared in the press accusing Filaret of severe violation of his monastic vows and abuse of his ecclesiastical authority. The Hierarchical Council of the Russian Orthodox Church, which met from March to April 1992, demanded that he leave his position. He promised that he would but, upon his return from Moscow, he announced that the promise was given under pressure and he would not leave. In May 1992 at a Hierarchical Council held in Kharkhiv the majority of the bishops of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Moscow Patriarchate voted to depose Metropolitan Filaret from his office and suspend his clerical functioning.

Relying on the support of political authorities in Ukraine, Filaret with three other bishops united with the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church. In June of 1992 they created a new Church, the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Kyivan Patriarchate (UOC-KP). Though only chosen as assistant to 94-year-old Patriarch Mstyslav, Filaret was actually in control of church affairs. Opposing this situation, some of the Autocephalous bishops and clergy refused to join the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Kyivan Patriarchate.

After the death of Patriarch Mstyslav, the Council of the UOC-KP chose Filaret to be the successor of newly-elected Patriarch Volodymyr Romaniuk, though full ecclesiastical power remained in Filaret’s hands. Upon the death of Patriarch Volodymyr in July of 1995 he was elected head of the UOC-KP. This led to yet another split: four hierarchs left the Church with their faithful.

After his election as Patriarch, Filaret began to take a very active part in church politics. He tried to gather around his Church all groups with a nationalist orientation and all church structures which did not have canonical recognition. He admitted the error of his previous opposition to the idea of autocephaly and Ukrainian Greek Catholics. He is of the opinion that Ukraine needs a national Church, to which all the Orthodox in the country should unite, and only the UOC-KP is capable of fulfilling this role. He made a few unsuccessful attempts at gaining canonical recognition for the UOC-KP.

The Hierarchical Council of the Russian Orthodox Church in 1997 excommunicated him from the Church and put him under anathema. He has not acknowledged the validity of this act: he says he has simply left one national Church and chosen another.

Text adapted from the Ukrainian-language journal "Liudyna i Svit" ("The Human Being and the World"), February, 1998.

===============

Orthodoc
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« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2008, 01:47:52 PM »

Well, again, I am not really inclined to listen to one-sided accusations. Vladyka Denysenko, as far as I know, never confirmed that he had a wife or a mistress. He maintains that the woman who was said to be his mistress was actually his cousin, and the two children of that woman were not his. The mere fact that she lived in his residence proves nothing. I am a Kyivite and I know very well how his residence on Pushkins'ka Street looks like. It is certainly not a one-bedroom apartment, it's a mansion. Probably fifteen women and forty children could easily have lived there and never as much as say hello to the residence's owner.

The only "proof" that Vl. Denysenko had a mistress and two children comes from the same group of people who called my President, Viktor Yushchenko, a little stinking yapping dog whose rotten teeth will soon be crushed by the mighty Russian military fist. Having heard this outrageous thing from them, why should I believe ANYTHING they say about ANYTHING and anybody?

As for "on God's time" - yes, of course, may His will be done. But we are His fellow workers, His "sinergi" (2 Cor. 6:1), and He counts on us.
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« Reply #13 on: September 20, 2008, 07:39:45 PM »

If they are not his children, then he should have defended his character in the Holy Synod back in the early 90s, instead of running back to Kyiv.

Regardless, he remains no patriot of Ukraine or the Ukrainian people.
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« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2008, 08:03:20 PM »

If they are not his children, then he should have defended his character in the Holy Synod back in the early 90s, instead of running back to Kyiv.

Regardless, he remains no patriot of Ukraine or the Ukrainian people.

Exactly!  It's amazing how he changed from a Russophile to a Ukrainophile overnightwhen he didn't become the Patriarch of Moscow.  Up until then he didn't allow Ukrainian in any of the churches under his jurisdiction.

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« Reply #15 on: September 20, 2008, 08:45:46 PM »

Well, again, I am not really inclined to listen to one-sided accusations. Vladyka Denysenko, as far as I know, never confirmed that he had a wife or a mistress. He maintains that the woman who was said to be his mistress was actually his cousin, and the two children of that woman were not his. The mere fact that she lived in his residence proves nothing. I am a Kyivite and I know very well how his residence on Pushkins'ka Street looks like. It is certainly not a one-bedroom apartment, it's a mansion. Probably fifteen women and forty children could easily have lived there and never as much as say hello to the residence's owner.

The only "proof" that Vl. Denysenko had a mistress and two children comes from the same group of people who called my President, Viktor Yushchenko, a little stinking yapping dog whose rotten teeth will soon be crushed by the mighty Russian military fist. Having heard this outrageous thing from them, why should I believe ANYTHING they say about ANYTHING and anybody?
As for "on God's time" - yes, of course, may His will be done. But we are His fellow workers, His "sinergi" (2 Cor. 6:1), and He counts on us.

And this is your answer?  What does one have to do with the other?  I suppose that no Ukrainian has ever said anything equally as vile or insulting about a Russian politician!  This is a perfect example of what I mean mixing religion and politics!  And what I perceive of as the imaturity of the UOC to be autocephalous AT THIS TIME!

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« Reply #16 on: September 20, 2008, 11:38:41 PM »

Orthodoc,

You often complain about religion and politics being mixed by the Ukrainians, but the Russian do it just as often.  Why do you not decry it among them?

Fr. Deacon Lance

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« Reply #17 on: September 21, 2008, 05:29:34 PM »

Orthodoc,

You often complain about religion and politics being mixed by the Ukrainians, but the Russian do it just as often.  Why do you not decry it among them?

Fr. Deacon Lance



How about giving some examples and we'll discuss it.

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« Reply #18 on: September 21, 2008, 05:49:07 PM »

If they are not his children, then he should have defended his character in the Holy Synod back in the early 90s, instead of running back to Kyiv.

Regardless, he remains no patriot of Ukraine or the Ukrainian people.

Exactly!  It's amazing how he changed from a Russophile to a Ukrainophile overnightwhen he didn't become the Patriarch of Moscow.  Up until then he didn't allow Ukrainian in any of the churches under his jurisdiction.

Orthodoc

Agreed. In the words of one local priest, he is an interesting character.
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« Reply #19 on: September 21, 2008, 08:38:10 PM »

Orthodoc,

Well the MPs uncanonical annexation of the Orthodox of South Ossetia and Abkhazia comes to mind.  Just because Russia is annexing the territory doesn't mean the MP should jump in and annex the territory of a sister Church.  The whole deal stinks of political collusion.

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« Reply #20 on: September 21, 2008, 09:18:17 PM »

Orthodoc,

Well the MPs uncanonical annexation of the Orthodox of South Ossetia and Abkhazia comes to mind.  Just because Russia is annexing the territory doesn't mean the MP should jump in and annex the territory of a sister Church.  The whole deal stinks of political collusion.

Fr. Deacon Lance

===================

The Sukhumi-Abkhazian diocese seeks to join the Russian Church



Sukhumi, September 5, Interfax - The Abkhazian Church wants to be self-governed Church under the Moscow Patriarchate, administrator of the Sukhumi-Abkhazian Diocese Fr. Vissarion Aplia told journalists.

Orthodox believers of Abkhazia asked the Moscow Patriarchate for it "more than once before, but the republic wasn't recognized and it was the main obstacle for settling the question," he noted.

"We were in a very hard situation after Georgian-Abkhazian war of 1992-93 and it was the Russian Orthodox Church that extended help to the Abkhazian Church, though we asked the whole Orthodox world for help," the diocesan head said.

"Today when Russia recognized Abkhazia's independence, we intend to ask for settling this question again," Fr. Vissarion further said.

The Russian Orthodox Church stated late in August that though Russia had politically recognized Abkhazia and South Ossetia, it didn't mean changes of canonical territories of the Moscow and Georgian Patriarchates.

"The political decision has been taken and we must respect it because it is based on the unanimous opinion of MPs from both chambers of the Russian parliament," deputy head of the Moscow Patriarchate Department for External Church Relations Archpriest Vsevolod Chaplin told Interfax-Religion.

However, the priest further said, "Political decisions don't define church jurisdictions and spheres of pastoral responsibility. These questions should be settled canonically in course of dialogue between the two (Russian and Georgian -IF) Churches."
===================

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(Modified after further info was obtained)
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« Reply #21 on: September 21, 2008, 09:49:34 PM »

This article was published by F18News on: 4 September 2008
 
ABKHAZIA: "Of course" authorities won't defend Georgian monks and nuns
By Felix Corley, Forum 18 News Service <http://www.forum18.org>
 

Two monasteries of Georgian Orthodox monks and nuns in the Upper Kodori Gorge, captured by Abkhaz forces from Georgian forces in mid-August, are being pressured by the Abkhaz Orthodox Church to change their jurisdiction. "They must submit to the authority of our Church or leave Abkhazia," the head of the Abkhaz Orthodox Church, Fr Vissarion Aplia, who visited the monks and nuns within days of the fighting, told Forum 18 News Service. Asked who had given him the right to pressure members of a different religious jurisdiction to submit to his authority, Fr Aplia responded angrily: "It's not your business. It's our territory." Abkhaz Deputy Foreign Minister Maxim Gvinjia backs the right of the Abkhaz Church to enforce its will on the monks and nuns. "Of course we won't defend their rights, given the context of current developments," he told Forum 18. "Abkhazia is a Christian Orthodox country and the Abkhaz Orthodox Church is the main church." Since the expulsion of a Georgian Orthodox priest in April, the two monasteries are the only remaining Georgian Orthodox institutions left in Abkhazia.
 
As Abkhaz Orthodox leaders insist to Forum 18 News Service that a group of Georgian Orthodox monks and nuns in the north-east of Abkhazia must submit to their jurisdiction or leave Abkhazia, the unrecognised territory's Deputy Foreign Minister Maxim Gvinjia has told Forum 18 that the authorities will do nothing to protect the monks' and nuns' rights to religious freedom. "Of course we won't defend their rights, given the context of current developments," he told Forum 18 from the capital Sukhum (Sokhumi in Georgian) on 4 September. "We're not deporting them - they're being given the option of submitting to the Abkhaz Orthodox Church if they want to remain to serve the people here."

The Georgian Orthodox monks of St George Monastery and nuns of St Nino Convent live in the village of Ajara (Gulripsh District) in the Upper Kodori Gorge. Upper Kodori was the only part of Abkhazia that remained under the control of the authorities in the Georgian capital, Tbilisi, until recently. However, the area was captured by Abkhaz forces in an operation that began on 12 August. Abkhaz and Russian media reports say the monks and nuns hid in a cave during the fighting.

Forum 18 was unable to reach the monks and nuns to find out their reaction to the pressure to change their jurisdiction or leave their monasteries. The Georgian Orthodox Patriarchate in Tbilisi referred Forum 18 to Metropolitan Daniil (Datuashvili), the exiled head of its Abkhazia diocese and to whom the monks and nuns are subject, but he was unavailable on 2 and 3 September. However, one Georgian Orthodox from Abkhazia told Forum 18 on 3 September that the monks and nuns are under such heavy pressure from the Abkhaz that it would cause them further problems were they to be contacted.

Abkhazia has remained out of the control of the Tbilisi authorities since a bitter war in the early 1990s, which the Tbilisi authorities lost. Almost all ethnic Georgians fled Abkhazia in the wake of the war. The Republic of Abkhazia has been recognised only by Russia.

Although tens of thousands of ethnic Georgians still live a precarious existence in Abkhazia, mostly in Gali District in the south, the Abkhaz authorities have prevented the Georgian Orthodox Church from ministering there. The only Georgian priest in Abkhaz-controlled territory until the capture of Upper Kodori, Fr Pimen Kardava, who was serving in his native Gali District, was expelled on orders from the Abkhaz Orthodox Church in April. The Abkhaz State Security Service (SSS) enacted the expulsion, but denied any involvement to Forum 18 (see F18News 23 April 2008 http://www.forum18.org/Archive.php?article_id=1118).

In the wake of Fr Kardava's expulsion from Gali, Georgian Orthodox told Forum 18 that many local Georgians boycott the priest named by the Abkhaz Orthodox, Fr Matvei Tuzhba. "People don't go to him," one told Forum 18. "Many can't even understand Russian, the language he speaks. They can't and won't confess to him and have nowhere to go to church." The source said the only possibility of participating in church life is when local Georgians cross over into Georgian-controlled territory.

"We have lost our one and only priest there," the source added, "but even then one was not enough. But how can our Patriarch name ten priests when even one is not allowed?"

The monastery and convent in Ajara remain the only Georgian Orthodox institutions still functioning on Abkhaz-controlled territory.

The weekend after the Abkhaz capture of Upper Kodori, the monks and nuns were visited by a delegation led by Fr Vissarion Aplia, the head of the Abkhaz Orthodox Church, a jurisdiction that is not recognised by the canonical Orthodox Churches, although the Russian Orthodox Church has provided it with some practical support. The Georgian Orthodox Church regards Abkhazia as an integral part of its canonical territory.

After initially denying that he had travelled to Ajara to pressure the monks and nuns to submit to his Church, Fr Aplia eventually confirmed it. "We went to serve a moleben (prayer service) there in the wake of the fighting and discovered there were monks and nuns there," he told Forum 18 from Sukhum on 3 September. "We discussed with them how they could continue here on the territory of the Abkhaz Orthodox Church."

Fr Aplia and his delegation offered the monks and nuns the possibility of joining the Abkhaz Orthodox Church or becoming a representation of the Georgian Orthodox Patriarch Ilya II on Abkhaz Orthodox territory (which would be tantamount to their recognising that Abkhazia is not the canonical territory of the Georgian Patriarchate). "We gave them a free choice," he claimed to Forum 18. "They must submit to the authority of our Church or leave Abkhazia."

Fr Aplia declined to tell Forum 18 what the response of the monks and nuns had been to his demands. However, the Abkhaz government press agency Apsnypress reported on 18 August that the monks and nuns said they would consult their church superiors and give their response "in the near future".

Asked what would happen if the monks and nuns continue to recognise the authority of the Georgian Patriarch, Fr Aplia responded: "Let them pray in Tbilisi. The monasteries were founded only ten years ago, specially to cause a scandal. They want to stage a political show."

Asked who had given him the right to pressure members of a different religious jurisdiction to submit to his authority, Fr Aplia responded angrily: "It's not your business. It's our territory."

The Abkhaz presidential spokesperson Kristian Bjania was quoted on the presidential website on 16 August denying that the monks and nuns had been pressured over their choice of jurisdiction. He blamed the "Georgian propaganda machine" for such "false reports".

Gvinjia, the Deputy Foreign Minister, insisted to Forum 18 that the Abkhaz government "does not get involved in religious issues". "We can't influence the church. Abkhazia is a Christian Orthodox country and the Abkhaz Orthodox Church is the main church," he maintained. "All other religious communities – including Catholics, Muslims and Lutherans – all submit their documents to the Abkhaz Orthodox Church as the main religious community. This is the framework that operates here, as in all countries of the world."

Asked why one religious community has to submit to another religious community and how this fits with Abkhazia's Constitution - which guarantees religious freedom and recognises human rights set out in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights - Gvinjia insisted: "This is how it is in every country of the world."

 
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« Reply #22 on: September 22, 2008, 09:13:17 AM »

Well, again, I am not really inclined to listen to one-sided accusations. Vladyka Denysenko, as far as I know, never confirmed that he had a wife or a mistress. He maintains that the woman who was said to be his mistress was actually his cousin, and the two children of that woman were not his. The mere fact that she lived in his residence proves nothing. I am a Kyivite and I know very well how his residence on Pushkins'ka Street looks like. It is certainly not a one-bedroom apartment, it's a mansion. Probably fifteen women and forty children could easily have lived there and never as much as say hello to the residence's owner.

The only "proof" that Vl. Denysenko had a mistress and two children comes from the same group of people who called my President, Viktor Yushchenko, a little stinking yapping dog whose rotten teeth will soon be crushed by the mighty Russian military fist. Having heard this outrageous thing from them, why should I believe ANYTHING they say about ANYTHING and anybody?
As for "on God's time" - yes, of course, may His will be done. But we are His fellow workers, His "sinergi" (2 Cor. 6:1), and He counts on us.

And this is your answer?  What does one have to do with the other?  I suppose that no Ukrainian has ever said anything equally as vile or insulting about a Russian politician!  This is a perfect example of what I mean mixing religion and politics!  And what I perceive of as the imaturity of the UOC to be autocephalous AT THIS TIME!

Orthodoc

What exactly "vile and insulting" did I say? I only repeated what he (Prot. Fr. Dmitriy Smirnov, the head of the Synodical Committee on relationships with armed forces of the ROC) said...
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« Reply #23 on: September 22, 2008, 09:17:02 AM »

^I apologize for misunderstanding you. You meant that Ukrainian people sometimes say "vile and insulting things" about Russian politicians. Granted. But I don't think that any Ukrainian CLERGYMAN, especially a clergyman who offficially represents the Patriarch of the Orthodox jurisdiction, ever said anything vile and insulting about President Putin or President Medvedev in a public interview or during an official conference.
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« Reply #24 on: September 22, 2008, 09:33:40 AM »

If they are not his children, then he should have defended his character in the Holy Synod back in the early 90s, instead of running back to Kyiv.

Maybe. However, I don't know all the circumstances and I can't judge his character. Maybe there were valid reasons why he did not answer the Synod.

Regardless, he remains no patriot of Ukraine or the Ukrainian people.

Hard to say. On the one hand, yes, most definitely he was a contestant for the throne of the Moscow Patriarch, and he "suddenly" turned a patriotic Ukrainian only after he lost the contest to Vl. Ridiger. However, again, if we only look back, picking on what various priests and bishops said and did in the past (in the days of the USSR and in the early post-Soviet years), we might discover a lot of nasty things just about anybody... Right now, Vl. Denysenko is trying to be a patriot practically, by his deeds, actions. I agree that these deeds were, and probably still are, clumsy and irritating to the world of canonical Orthodoxy. But the process of recognition of the autocephalous Ukrainian Orthodox Church must somehow begin. Better do something than nothing at all, don't you think?
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« Reply #25 on: September 22, 2008, 09:36:13 AM »

This is a perfect example of what I mean mixing religion and politics!  And what I perceive of as the imaturity of the UOC to be autocephalous AT THIS TIME!

Orthodoc

Dear Orthodox, it was actually you who started mixing religion and politics in this thread, when you began to talk about Ukrainian nationalism etc. My intention was only to discuss the content of the Canonical Declaration that I gave the link to.
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« Reply #26 on: September 22, 2008, 09:54:24 AM »

Well, again, I am not really inclined to listen to one-sided accusations. Vladyka Denysenko, as far as I know, never confirmed that he had a wife or a mistress. He maintains that the woman who was said to be his mistress was actually his cousin, and the two children of that woman were not his. The mere fact that she lived in his residence proves nothing. I am a Kyivite and I know very well how his residence on Pushkins'ka Street looks like. It is certainly not a one-bedroom apartment, it's a mansion. Probably fifteen women and forty children could easily have lived there and never as much as say hello to the residence's owner.

The only "proof" that Vl. Denysenko had a mistress and two children comes from the same group of people who called my President, Viktor Yushchenko, a little stinking yapping dog whose rotten teeth will soon be crushed by the mighty Russian military fist. Having heard this outrageous thing from them, why should I believe ANYTHING they say about ANYTHING and anybody?
As for "on God's time" - yes, of course, may His will be done. But we are His fellow workers, His "sinergi" (2 Cor. 6:1), and He counts on us.

And this is your answer?  What does one have to do with the other?  I suppose that no Ukrainian has ever said anything equally as vile or insulting about a Russian politician!  This is a perfect example of what I mean mixing religion and politics!  And what I perceive of as the imaturity of the UOC to be autocephalous AT THIS TIME!

Orthodoc

What exactly "vile and insulting" did I say? I only repeated what he (Prot. Fr. Dmitriy Smirnov, the head of the Synodical Committee on relationships with armed forces of the ROC) said...

It is I who label what was said by the priest as vile and disgusting.  Not anything you said.  My point was that equally vile & disgusting remarks have been made by Ukrainins about Russians.  My point is that such remarks are no excuse for denying the accusations against Denisenko.

Orthodoc
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« Reply #27 on: September 22, 2008, 10:01:09 AM »

^I apologize for misunderstanding you. You meant that Ukrainian people sometimes say "vile and insulting things" about Russian politicians. Granted. But I don't think that any Ukrainian CLERGYMAN, especially a clergyman who offficially represents the Patriarch of the Orthodox jurisdiction, ever said anything vile and insulting about President Putin or President Medvedev in a public interview or during an official conference.

I'm not talking about Russian politicians. I'm talking about ethnic slurs.  The insults and slurs run wild on both sides. 

I have yet to hear either Putin or Medvedev or any other Russian politician for that matter involve themselves in matters or issues involving the church by making statements, closing down TV stations, or staging religious events to interfere with the canons of the church as has been done in Ukraine. 

Where has the Russian politicians involved themselves in the so called example Deacon Lance gave?  Seems like one or two dioceses that comprise mostly of Russians want to go under the MP.  From what I am reading there are two religious institutions who disagree.  This is an issue that has to be resolved by the MP and the Georgian Orthodox patriarchate.  Not the Georgian or Russian politicians.  And I have not read one comment about this by any Russian politician.  It is a church matter.  And should remain as such.

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« Reply #28 on: September 22, 2008, 10:06:03 AM »

Well, again, I am not really inclined to listen to one-sided accusations. Vladyka Denysenko, as far as I know, never confirmed that he had a wife or a mistress. He maintains that the woman who was said to be his mistress was actually his cousin, and the two children of that woman were not his. The mere fact that she lived in his residence proves nothing. I am a Kyivite and I know very well how his residence on Pushkins'ka Street looks like. It is certainly not a one-bedroom apartment, it's a mansion. Probably fifteen women and forty children could easily have lived there and never as much as say hello to the residence's owner.

The only "proof" that Vl. Denysenko had a mistress and two children comes from the same group of people who called my President, Viktor Yushchenko, a little stinking yapping dog whose rotten teeth will soon be crushed by the mighty Russian military fist. Having heard this outrageous thing from them, why should I believe ANYTHING they say about ANYTHING and anybody?
As for "on God's time" - yes, of course, may His will be done. But we are His fellow workers, His "sinergi" (2 Cor. 6:1), and He counts on us.

And this is your answer?  What does one have to do with the other?  I suppose that no Ukrainian has ever said anything equally as vile or insulting about a Russian politician!  This is a perfect example of what I mean mixing religion and politics!  And what I perceive of as the imaturity of the UOC to be autocephalous AT THIS TIME!

Orthodoc

What exactly "vile and insulting" did I say? I only repeated what he (Prot. Fr. Dmitriy Smirnov, the head of the Synodical Committee on relationships with armed forces of the ROC) said...

It is I who label what was said by the priest as vile and disgusting.  Not anything you said.  My point was that equally vile & disgusting remarks have been made by Ukrainins about Russians.  My point is that such remarks are no excuse for denying the accusations against Denisenko.

Orthodoc

I understand, but it's not about excuse, it's about credibility. It is obvious that ROC hierarchs often speak as politicians, not as spiritual shepherds. Fr. Smirnov's outrageous statement is just one of the very many. In this context, I really very seriously doubt that that session of the Holy Synod of the ROC was not a political show, either.
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« Reply #29 on: September 22, 2008, 10:08:54 AM »

^I apologize for misunderstanding you. You meant that Ukrainian people sometimes say "vile and insulting things" about Russian politicians. Granted. But I don't think that any Ukrainian CLERGYMAN, especially a clergyman who offficially represents the Patriarch of the Orthodox jurisdiction, ever said anything vile and insulting about President Putin or President Medvedev in a public interview or during an official conference.

I'm not talikg about Russian politicians. I'm talking about ethnic slurs.  The insults and slurs run wild on both sides. 

Orthodoc



I was talking about the agenda of the Moscow Patriarchate as revealed by statements of its highly positioned official representatives in official interviews. Again, given this agenda, I cannot trust anything they say about any Ukrainian political OR religious figure.
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« Reply #30 on: September 22, 2008, 12:37:04 PM »



Heorhij:

Your answers still seem to be based more on ethnic mistrust and hatred than any type of theological, historical, and canonical reasons.

I think you once mentioned you were brought up as a non-believer.  If this is not true please accept my apology and publically correct me.  If it is, can you please answer the following question:

1)  In deciding to come to the church why did you pick Orthodoxy over Greek Catholicism?

2)  Why did you chose the Othodox jurisdiction you now belong to?

Thanks,

Othodoc

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« Reply #31 on: September 22, 2008, 01:30:40 PM »


Heorhij:

Your answers still seem to be based more on ethnic mistrust and hatred than any type of theological, historical, and canonical reasons.

Not really "ethnic" mistrust - I don't believe that Russians as an ethnos are any different from any other. And certainly not on hate. Rather, they are based on the clear EVIDENCE that ROC is very political as far as Ukraine is concerned.

I think you once mentioned you were brought up as a non-believer.  If this is not true please accept my apology and publically correct me.

That's true. My parents were atheists. In the generation of my grand-parents, only one person was devout church-going Orthodox Christian (my paternal grandmother's sister). My maternal grandmother was an extremely militant atheist who admired Voltaire and always spit and cursed when she as much as saw a priest walking down the street.

  If it is, can you please answer the following question:

1)  In deciding to come to the church why did you pick Orthodoxy over Greek Catholicism?

2)  Why did you chose the Othodox jurisdiction you now belong to?

Thanks,

Othodoc



My pleasure.

1. Because from everything I read, I became convinced that the Orthodox Church is the original Church of our Lord Jesus Christ and His holy apostles. It is THE Church that was founded on the day of Pentecost of the year 33 A.D. She did not split from any other religious group, while the Roman Archdioscese actually split from her in 1054. Greek Catholics are Orthodox only as far as the Byzantine rite is concerned; doctrinally, they are Roman Catholics, so there is no question, given my conviction that I described above, that I should not belong to them.

2. That's very simple. There are no other Orthodox churches anywhere near to where I live (Starkville, Mississippi). The GOA parish in Aberdeen, MS is the closest. The nearest Ukrainian (UOC-USA) parish is iin the Atlanta metropolitan area, so it's just impossible, practically speaking, for me to drive there every time they have a Divine Liturgy.
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« Reply #32 on: September 22, 2008, 04:21:28 PM »


Thanks for your honest replies.  Seems like you did do some theological research before making a decision.

My reason for asking was because I recently had a long conversation with a Ukrainian who was also brought up in a nonbelieving family.  He is now a member of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church.  When I asked him the same two questions he told me he became Greek Catholic because that was the true religion of Ukrainians.  Those that were Orthodox were not true Ukrainians but Russophiles.  To him Greek Catholic = Ukarainian while Orthodox = Russian.  I have also gotten the same impression from others.  Glad to hear there are people like you who at least look into the theological issues rather than rely on ethnic pride or identity.

Orthodoc
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« Reply #33 on: September 22, 2008, 04:45:05 PM »


Thanks for your honest replies.  Seems like you did do some theological research before making a decision.

My reason for asking was because I recently had a long conversation with a Ukrainian who was also brought up in a nonbelieving family.  He is now a member of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church.  When I asked him the same two questions he told me he became Greek Catholic because that was the true religion of Ukrainians.  Those that were Orthodox were not true Ukrainians but Russophiles.  To him Greek Catholic = Ukarainian while Orthodox = Russian.  I have also gotten the same impression from others.  Glad to hear there are people like you who at least look into the theological issues rather than rely on ethnic pride or identity.

Orthodoc

You are very welcome.

I know some Ukrainians who are like the person you described. I also know some very young people (in their 20-s) in my home city, Kyiv, who are not ethnic Poles and yet go to a ROMAN Catholic parish (St. Alexander's, on Kostel'na Street, near the corner of Tryokhsvyatytel's'ka, across the street from the Institute of Philosophy of the Ukrainian Academy of Sciences), because they sincerely believe that the Roman Catholic faith is a hallmark of being "European," "Pro-Western," and thus "progressive," as opposed to old-fashioned, obsolete, outdated, retrograde and rabidly anti-Western Orthodoxy. That's very unfortunate, but what pushes them to such extremes is, actually, the openly pro-Russian and anti-Ukrainian, anti-Western, anti-European rhetorics of the ROC...

On the other hand, I know Ukrainians who are very devout Orthodox in Western Ukraine, and also here, in the Ukrainian-American diaspora. They as as far from being Russophile as they are from the Moon.
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« Reply #34 on: September 22, 2008, 08:57:48 PM »

Where has the Russian politicians involved themselves in the so called example Deacon Lance gave?  Seems like one or two dioceses that comprise mostly of Russians want to go under the MP.  From what I am reading there are two religious institutions who disagree.  This is an issue that has to be resolved by the MP and the Georgian Orthodox patriarchate.  Not the Georgian or Russian politicians.  And I have not read one comment about this by any Russian politician.  It is a church matter.  And should remain as such.

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Abkhazians are not Russians, they are a seperate ethnicity that while related to the Georgians and historically tied to them are different from them as well and want autonomy from them.  Sounds a lot like the way Ukrainians feel about Russians.  The difference is the MP denounces Ukrainian dreams of autocephaly and claims Ukraine, even though independent, is its canonical territory.  The Georgian Patriarch makes the same claim regarding Abkhazia.  So if the MP is going to be consistent they should denounce Abkhaz intentions to seperate from their canonical Patriarch and tell them even though annexed by Russia they belong to Georgian Patriarch.  However quotes like:

"The political decision has been taken and we must respect it because it is based on the unanimous opinion of MPs from both chambers of the Russian parliament," deputy head of the Moscow Patriarchate Department for External Church Relations Archpriest Vsevolod Chaplin told Interfax-Religion.  However, the priest further said, "Political decisions don't define church jurisdictions and spheres of pastoral responsibility. These questions should be settled canonically in course of dialogue between the two (Russian and Georgian -IF) Churches."

make me belive the MP has every intention of annexing this diocese now that the province has been annexed.  And this would certainly be consistent with MP treatment of the GP when Georgia was annexed by Russia.

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« Reply #35 on: September 22, 2008, 11:53:07 PM »

I feel deeply sorry for both the lower clergy and the people of both Russina Orthodox church and the Ukrainian Orthodox church having to  watch there Hierarchies make a mess and fighting over who is and who isn't the right full KP. as I understand it that there are three men claiming KP. The way I see it I think the Ukrainian Government should Pull a Peter the Great on the on the UOC and do a way with the KP and bring the entire Church under a Holy Synod of Bishops and let them run the church that way none claims KP. this is only my opinion
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« Reply #36 on: September 23, 2008, 01:51:24 AM »

If they are not his children, then he should have defended his character in the Holy Synod back in the early 90s, instead of running back to Kyiv.

Maybe. However, I don't know all the circumstances and I can't judge his character. Maybe there were valid reasons why he did not answer the Synod.

Regardless, he remains no patriot of Ukraine or the Ukrainian people.

Hard to say. On the one hand, yes, most definitely he was a contestant for the throne of the Moscow Patriarch, and he "suddenly" turned a patriotic Ukrainian only after he lost the contest to Vl. Ridiger. However, again, if we only look back, picking on what various priests and bishops said and did in the past (in the days of the USSR and in the early post-Soviet years), we might discover a lot of nasty things just about anybody... Right now, Vl. Denysenko is trying to be a patriot practically, by his deeds, actions. I agree that these deeds were, and probably still are, clumsy and irritating to the world of canonical Orthodoxy. But the process of recognition of the autocephalous Ukrainian Orthodox Church must somehow begin. Better do something than nothing at all, don't you think?

Then how about he retire in peace to a monastery, turning his parishes over to one of the Ukrainian jurisdictions here in the West, so the situation can move forward? It is rather easy to blame everything on Moscow, when in all reality the KP-MP schism had nothing to do with an independant Ukie Church, and everything to do with him being asked to retire. A Ukrainian Orthodox Church which exists solefully on the basis of being Ukrainian, is not an Orthodox Church.

“Autocephalous means that we are independent. It also means that we do not answer to an Ecumenical Patriarch in Constantinople or anywhere else.  A Ukrainian Church cannot be Ukrainian if it submits to someone.  There must be spiritual independence.” - HH Mefodiy of (one of the many!) UAOC
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« Reply #37 on: September 23, 2008, 09:31:52 AM »

Then how about he retire in peace to a monastery, turning his parishes over to one of the Ukrainian jurisdictions here in the West, so the situation can move forward?

But that's the whole point, he does not agree with the accusations against him. He does not believe he's guilty in any wrongdoing. The only proof that he did something wrong comes from hierarchs of the ROC. They clearly aren't objective. They clearly are biased. So, to him retiring, going to a monastery would be simply giving in to what he considers injustice. He feels a certain calling - to be active (he is 79 years old, but still pretty healthy and energetic), and he wants to do what he considers right. Of course, if there was an Ecumenical Counsil and the whole Church told him to retire, he would retire. So far, however, it's the ROC who tells him to retire; the rest of the Orthodox world is just saying, essentially, what Orthodoc is saying: ah, who knows these Ukrainians, they are immature, let them sort things out between themselves, and we just keep doing what we are doing (as far as they are concerned, nothing). Everyone's happy...

It is rather easy to blame everything on Moscow, when in all reality the KP-MP schism had nothing to do with an independant Ukie Church, and everything to do with him being asked to retire.

The issue is, WHO asks him to retire, and WHY, for what purpose.

A Ukrainian Orthodox Church which exists solefully on the basis of being Ukrainian, is not an Orthodox Church.

How about Russian, Bulgarian, Serbian, Romanian, Georgian, Finnish...?

“Autocephalous means that we are independent. It also means that we do not answer to an Ecumenical Patriarch in Constantinople or anywhere else.  A Ukrainian Church cannot be Ukrainian if it submits to someone.  There must be spiritual independence.” - HH Mefodiy of (one of the many!) UAOC

One of the two, actually (the other is led by a bishop called Vl. Ihor Isychenko, and that one is, actually, all FOR getting under the omophore of the Ecumenical Patriarch, just like the UOC-USA or the UOC-Canada).
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« Reply #38 on: September 23, 2008, 09:40:54 AM »

I feel deeply sorry for both the lower clergy and the people of both Russina Orthodox church and the Ukrainian Orthodox church having to  watch there Hierarchies make a mess and fighting over who is and who isn't the right full KP. as I understand it that there are three men claiming KP. The way I see it I think the Ukrainian Government should Pull a Peter the Great on the on the UOC and do a way with the KP and bring the entire Church under a Holy Synod of Bishops and let them run the church that way none claims KP. this is only my opinion

That would be absolutely impossible. Ukraine is a democracy. It has a Constitution that prohibits governmental interference with affairs of religious organizations. A president who would dare to play Peter the "Great" would be immediately impeached by the Verkhovna Rada (parliament).
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« Reply #39 on: September 23, 2008, 10:20:47 AM »

I feel deeply sorry for both the lower clergy and the people of both Russina Orthodox church and the Ukrainian Orthodox church having to  watch there Hierarchies make a mess and fighting over who is and who isn't the right full KP. as I understand it that there are three men claiming KP. The way I see it I think the Ukrainian Government should Pull a Peter the Great on the on the UOC and do a way with the KP and bring the entire Church under a Holy Synod of Bishops and let them run the church that way none claims KP. this is only my opinion

That would be absolutely impossible. Ukraine is a democracy. It has a Constitution that prohibits governmental interference with affairs of religious organizations. A president who would dare to play Peter the "Great" would be immediately impeached by the Verkhovna Rada (parliament).

I didn't say Play Peter the Great I said Pull a Peter the Great.Yes I know that the UKraine is a Democracy and has a Constitution. When I meat Pull a Peter the Great, That They should get with the Bishops of the Holy Synod and just do away with having a Patriarch and Just have a Synod of Bishops to run the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, That way the MP and EPcan not interfere with the Ukrainian Orthodox Church and it can have peace and be the Orthodox Church for the ukrainian people
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« Reply #40 on: September 23, 2008, 11:06:25 AM »

...I also know some very young people (in their 20-s) in my home city, Kyiv, who are not ethnic Poles and yet go to a ROMAN Catholic parish (St. Alexander's, on Kostel'na Street, near the corner of Tryokhsvyatytel's'ka, across the street from the Institute of Philosophy of the Ukrainian Academy of Sciences), because they sincerely believe that the Roman Catholic faith is a hallmark of being "European," "Pro-Western," and thus "progressive," as opposed to old-fashioned, obsolete, outdated, retrograde and rabidly anti-Western Orthodoxy.

And you are advocating for autocephalia for like-minded people, so they can, eventually, enter into yet another Unia? Am I misunderstanding something?
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« Reply #41 on: September 23, 2008, 11:19:39 AM »

Then how about he retire in peace to a monastery, turning his parishes over to one of the Ukrainian jurisdictions here in the West, so the situation can move forward?

But that's the whole point, he does not agree with the accusations against him. He does not believe he's guilty in any wrongdoing. The only proof that he did something wrong comes from hierarchs of the ROC. They clearly aren't objective. They clearly are biased. So, to him retiring, going to a monastery would be simply giving in to what he considers injustice. He feels a certain calling - to be active (he is 79 years old, but still pretty healthy and energetic), and he wants to do what he considers right. Of course, if there was an Ecumenical Counsil and the whole Church told him to retire, he would retire. So far, however, it's the ROC who tells him to retire; the rest of the Orthodox world is just saying, essentially, what Orthodoc is saying: ah, who knows these Ukrainians, they are immature, let them sort things out between themselves, and we just keep doing what we are doing (as far as they are concerned, nothing). Everyone's happy...

It is rather easy to blame everything on Moscow, when in all reality the KP-MP schism had nothing to do with an independant Ukie Church, and everything to do with him being asked to retire.

The issue is, WHO asks him to retire, and WHY, for what purpose.

A Ukrainian Orthodox Church which exists solefully on the basis of being Ukrainian, is not an Orthodox Church.

How about Russian, Bulgarian, Serbian, Romanian, Georgian, Finnish...?

“Autocephalous means that we are independent. It also means that we do not answer to an Ecumenical Patriarch in Constantinople or anywhere else.  A Ukrainian Church cannot be Ukrainian if it submits to someone.  There must be spiritual independence.” - HH Mefodiy of (one of the many!) UAOC

One of the two, actually (the other is led by a bishop called Vl. Ihor Isychenko, and that one is, actually, all FOR getting under the omophore of the Ecumenical Patriarch, just like the UOC-USA or the UOC-Canada).

He was asked to retire by his Sobor due to allegations of a commonlaw wife, improper financial dealings etc etc etc. Given that I know priests who have met him and his so-called "common-law wife", as well as were told by him to explicitly not address him in Ukrainian, you have a hard sell. He was a Russophile Ukrainian until asked to retire. At that time, he became some sort of Ukrainian patriot.

And the MP in this case has authority over their bishops. They asked him to retire, he refused. Simple as that. The rest of Orthodoxy are bystanders in this issue. It is a local council issue, that was addressed by the Russians.
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« Reply #42 on: September 23, 2008, 11:22:26 AM »

...I also know some very young people (in their 20-s) in my home city, Kyiv, who are not ethnic Poles and yet go to a ROMAN Catholic parish (St. Alexander's, on Kostel'na Street, near the corner of Tryokhsvyatytel's'ka, across the street from the Institute of Philosophy of the Ukrainian Academy of Sciences), because they sincerely believe that the Roman Catholic faith is a hallmark of being "European," "Pro-Western," and thus "progressive," as opposed to old-fashioned, obsolete, outdated, retrograde and rabidly anti-Western Orthodoxy.

And you are advocating for autocephalia for like-minded people, so they can, eventually, enter into yet another Unia? Am I misunderstanding something?

No, of course not! I am advocating for autocephalia so that the Ukrainian Orthodox people can practice their faith, partake in the Holy Mysteries of the Church, grow into the Body of Christ without being shepherded by those who are political enemies of their President, their government, their country (see, again, Prot. Fr. Dmitriy Smirnov's crystal clear expression of the ROC political agenda).
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« Reply #43 on: September 23, 2008, 11:26:28 AM »

I feel deeply sorry for both the lower clergy and the people of both Russina Orthodox church and the Ukrainian Orthodox church having to  watch there Hierarchies make a mess and fighting over who is and who isn't the right full KP. as I understand it that there are three men claiming KP. The way I see it I think the Ukrainian Government should Pull a Peter the Great on the on the UOC and do a way with the KP and bring the entire Church under a Holy Synod of Bishops and let them run the church that way none claims KP. this is only my opinion

That would be absolutely impossible. Ukraine is a democracy. It has a Constitution that prohibits governmental interference with affairs of religious organizations. A president who would dare to play Peter the "Great" would be immediately impeached by the Verkhovna Rada (parliament).

I didn't say Play Peter the Great I said Pull a Peter the Great.Yes I know that the UKraine is a Democracy and has a Constitution. When I meat Pull a Peter the Great, That They should get with the Bishops of the Holy Synod and just do away with having a Patriarch and Just have a Synod of Bishops to run the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, That way the MP and EPcan not interfere with the Ukrainian Orthodox Church and it can have peace and be the Orthodox Church for the ukrainian people

Isn't that what they already have as an AUTOMONOUS Church in communion with the MP?

===========

Autocephalous. (Gr. "appointing its own leader"). The status of an Orthodox church which is self-governed and also has the authority to elect or appoint its own leader or head (cephale).

Autonomy. (Gr. "self-rule"). The status of an Orthodox Church that is self-ruled. An autonomous church is governed by its prelate, who is chosen by a superior jurisdiction, usually by a patriarchate).

==============

Father:  Since the Ukrainian Church is not canonically autocephalous there is no legal Kievan Patriarch.  There are two churches [not three] which are self proclaimed es that address their chief hierach as Patriarch.  Neither is recognized as canonical by any Orthodox Church in the world that is canonical.

Orthodoc


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« Reply #44 on: September 23, 2008, 11:31:11 AM »


Isn't that what they already have as an AUTOMONOUS Church in communion with the MP?


Well, the prelate of the canonical UOC, Metr. Volodymyr (Sabodan) is a member of the Synod of Bishops of the Moscow Patriarchy, so he answers to Patriarch Alexiy II. I don't think Vl. Volodymyr can, for example, decide on matters of Chirotony of bishops in his Church without the consent of Patriarch Alexiy.
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« Reply #45 on: September 23, 2008, 11:36:27 AM »

He was asked to retire by his Sobor due to allegations of a commonlaw wife, improper financial dealings etc etc etc. Given that I know priests who have met him and his so-called "common-law wife", as well as were told by him to explicitly not address him in Ukrainian, you have a hard sell.

The last part sounds strange to me. I heard him speak Ukrainian. His command on the Ukrainian language is very good. Maybe he speaks Russian in his everyday life, because he is a native of the Donetsk oblast, the part of the Ukrainian Southeast where the majority of people speak Russian. But that hardly makes him a "Russophile." When he speaks from a podium, he speaks very beautiful, grammatic, idiomatic Ukrainian.

And the MP in this case has authority over their bishops. They asked him to retire, he refused. Simple as that. The rest of Orthodoxy are bystanders in this issue. It is a local council issue, that was addressed by the Russians.

It should not be like that. It's just not right.
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« Reply #46 on: September 23, 2008, 11:47:58 AM »


Isn't that what they already have as an AUTOMONOUS Church in communion with the MP?


Well, the prelate of the canonical UOC, Metr. Volodymyr (Sabodan) is a member of the Synod of Bishops of the Moscow Patriarchy, so he answers to Patriarch Alexiy II. I don't think Vl. Volodymyr can, for example, decide on matters of Chirotony of bishops in his Church without the consent of Patriarch Alexiy.

I disagree.  Automonous means ADMINISTRATIVELY SELF GOVERNING.  From my understanding the only two things an automonous church cannot do is have the final say on the elction of its chief hierach and make the Holy Chrism which it has to receive from the church that granted it its automony.  The election of bishops, running of dioceses, etc. are administrative duties it can freely function with.

Maybe one of the clergy here and elaborate more.

Orthodoc

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« Reply #47 on: September 23, 2008, 12:07:21 PM »


Isn't that what they already have as an AUTOMONOUS Church in communion with the MP?


... I don't think Vl. Volodymyr can, for example, decide on matters of Chirotony of bishops in his Church without the consent of Patriarch Alexiy.

I disagree.  Automonous means ADMINISTRATIVELY SELF GOVERNING.  From my understanding the only two things an automonous church cannot do is have the final say on the elction of its chief hierach and make the Holy Chrism which it has to receive from the church that granted it its automony.  The election of bishops, running of dioceses, etc. are administrative duties it can freely function with.

Maybe one of the clergy here and elaborate more.

Orthodoc


If I'm allowed, though I'm just a laymen, it might appear I'm not speaking just utter nonsense on the issue:

The scope of autonomy is determined by the document of it's establishment by Mother Church. The same document should determine the fashion of any further amendments of itself (e.g., could it be amended by the mere resolution of the council of Mother Church, or the amendments would require consent or approval of the council of Autonomous Church, etc.).

AFAIK, autonomy of Archbishopric of Ohrid of Serbian Orthodox Church assume that they'll elect their own bishops (technically that's not possible because there is only one bishop there, and he is imprisoned). The only form of "dependancy" is that Arhcbishop will mention Serbian Patriarch in prayers (I don't know about Chrism).

MP have several autonomies (ROCOR, Church of Japan, Estonia, Ukraine, etc.) and they have various degrees of autonomy (I think Church of Japan the greatest one), while ROCOR takes Holy Chrism, but appoints her bishops on her own and elect her primate on her own.

What exactly is the scope of autonomy of UOC-MP could easily be determined by reading the documents. There is simply no need for agreement / disagreement over the facts.
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« Reply #48 on: September 23, 2008, 01:37:24 PM »

If I'm allowed, though I'm just a laymen, it might appear I'm not speaking just utter nonsense on the issue:

The scope of autonomy is determined by the document of it's establishment by Mother Church. The same document should determine the fashion of any further amendments of itself (e.g., could it be amended by the mere resolution of the council of Mother Church, or the amendments would require consent or approval of the council of Autonomous Church, etc.).

AFAIK, autonomy of Archbishopric of Ohrid of Serbian Orthodox Church assume that they'll elect their own bishops (technically that's not possible because there is only one bishop there, and he is imprisoned). The only form of "dependancy" is that Arhcbishop will mention Serbian Patriarch in prayers (I don't know about Chrism).

MP have several autonomies (ROCOR, Church of Japan, Estonia, Ukraine, etc.) and they have various degrees of autonomy (I think Church of Japan the greatest one), while ROCOR takes Holy Chrism, but appoints her bishops on her own and elect her primate on her own.

What exactly is the scope of autonomy of UOC-MP could easily be determined by reading the documents. There is simply no need for agreement / disagreement over the facts.

Your observation is spot-on.  We would need a copy of the document granting Autonomy before we could speculate on the extent of said Autonomy.
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« Reply #49 on: September 23, 2008, 01:57:26 PM »

If I'm allowed, though I'm just a laymen, it might appear I'm not speaking just utter nonsense on the issue:

The scope of autonomy is determined by the document of it's establishment by Mother Church. The same document should determine the fashion of any further amendments of itself (e.g., could it be amended by the mere resolution of the council of Mother Church, or the amendments would require consent or approval of the council of Autonomous Church, etc.).

AFAIK, autonomy of Archbishopric of Ohrid of Serbian Orthodox Church assume that they'll elect their own bishops (technically that's not possible because there is only one bishop there, and he is imprisoned). The only form of "dependancy" is that Arhcbishop will mention Serbian Patriarch in prayers (I don't know about Chrism).

MP have several autonomies (ROCOR, Church of Japan, Estonia, Ukraine, etc.) and they have various degrees of autonomy (I think Church of Japan the greatest one), while ROCOR takes Holy Chrism, but appoints her bishops on her own and elect her primate on her own.

What exactly is the scope of autonomy of UOC-MP could easily be determined by reading the documents. There is simply no need for agreement / disagreement over the facts.

Your observation is spot-on.  We would need a copy of the document granting Autonomy before we could speculate on the extent of said Autonomy.

Anyone know how or where we can get a translated copy?  This seems like a great topic for further discussion.

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« Reply #50 on: September 23, 2008, 02:11:52 PM »

I found the document, here: http://orthodox.org.ua/uk/tserkva_i_derjava/religiyne_zakonodavstvo/dokumenti_ukrainskoi_pravo_0

It is strange to me. On the one hand, is says in its paragraph 1, "Українська Православна Церква є самостійною і незалежною у своєму управлінні та устрої" ("the Ukrainian Orthodox Church is self-governed and independent in her government and her structure"). On the other hand, its paragraph 3 reads, "Українська Православна Церква з'єднана з Помісними Православними Церквами через Руську Православну Церкву" ("the Ukrainian Orthodox Church is united with the Autocephalous Orthodox Churches THROUGH THE RUSSIAN ORTHODOX CHURCH). Later, it says that the Synod of her Bishops is the supreme organ of power in the Church, but just a few lines later we read that one important function of this Synod is "збереження канонічної єдності Української Православної Церкви, а також її канонічної єдності з Руською Православною Церквою та з усіма Помісними Православними Церквами" ("maintaining the canonical integrity of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, and also her canonical unity WITH THE RUSSIAN ORTHODOX CHURCH and with all Autocephalous Orthodox Churches").

So, the relationship with the Russian Orthodox Church is clearly given a special place.
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« Reply #51 on: September 23, 2008, 02:13:38 PM »

http://orthodox.org.ua/eng/node/36
Quote
Resolution of the Bishop’s Council of the Russian Orthodox Church (October 25-27, 1990) concerning the Ukrainian Orthodox Church

 

The Bishops' Council, consisting of 91 hierarchs (6 off sick), presided over by His Holiness the Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia Alexy II, considered and comprehensively discussed the appeal of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church for granting it independence and autonomy in government.   

The Holy Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church at its session of July, 20, 1990 /proceedings No. 12/ took a survey of the decree of the Synod of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of July, 10, 1990, on the arrangements aiming at the development of its independence, made in the spirit of the Resolutions of the Local Council of the Russian Orthodox Church held on July, 7-8, 1990, and referred the question to decision.

Taking into account principal significance of the above-mentioned decree of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church for the future of the ecclesiastical life in Ukraine, the Holy Synod concluded: to consider it at the special Bishops' Council. 

For preparation of the Bishops' Council, a special commission was formed by the Holy Synod with His Eminence Metropolitan of Krutitsy and Kolomna Juvenaly at the head. The commission was entrusted to make a thorough study of  suggestions of the Synod of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church since they involve a wide range of historical, canonical, pastors' and international problems, resolving of which presupposes canonical embodiment of the Resolutions of the Local Council of the Russian Orthodox Church held on July, 7-8, 1990, concerning the Ukrainian Orthodox Church.

On October, 1, 1990, /proceedings No. 114/ the Holy Synod approved the activity of the Commission mentioned. The materials and suggestions on the actual issue were sent to all the Eminences of the Russian Orthodox Church and were brought up for discussion and approval of the present Council of Bishops. 

On the detailed examination and comprehensive discussion of the request of the Synod and the episcopate of the UOC, the Council of Bishops resolved:

1. The Ukrainian Orthodox Church obtains independence and self-governance.

2. Thereby the name "Ukrainian Exarchate" is abolished.

3. Primate of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church is elected by the Ukrainian episcopate and is blessed by His Holiness the Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia.

4. Primate of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church bears the title of His Beatitude Metropolitan of Kyiv and All Ukraine. 

5. Metropolitan of Kyiv and All Ukraine is conferred on a title "The Most Blessed", within the limits of the Ukrainian Church.

6. Metropolitan of Kyiv and All Ukraine enjoys the privilege of wearing two Panagias and the privilege of precedence with the cross during Divine services.

7. The Synod of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church elects and appoints ruling and vicar bishops, established and abolishes dioceses inside Ukraine.

8. Metropolitan of Kyiv and All Ukraine as Primate of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church is a permanent member of the Holy Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church.

9. Present Resolution of the Bishop's Council of the Russian Orthodox Church is subject to confirmation of the Local Council of the Russian Orthodox Church with introduction of the corresponding changes into the Statute of Government of the Russian Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #52 on: September 23, 2008, 02:16:26 PM »

...
So, the relationship with the Russian Orthodox Church is clearly given a special place.

I'm appalled you don't differ autonomy from autocephalia.

Of course the relationship with MP are "special", autonomy is part of her Mother. She isn't autocephalous.
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« Reply #53 on: September 23, 2008, 02:21:27 PM »

So, the relationship with the Russian Orthodox Church is clearly given a special place.

I'd imagine that ROCOR, the Church of Japan, the Church of Estonia, etc., also have special relationships with the MP.  I'd further imagine that the self-ruled Antiochian Archdiocese here has a similar special relationship with the Patriarchate of Antioch.  I really don't see what the issue is.
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« Reply #54 on: September 23, 2008, 02:29:25 PM »

...
So, the relationship with the Russian Orthodox Church is clearly given a special place.

I'm appalled you don't differ autonomy from autocephalia.

Of course the relationship with MP are "special", autonomy is part of her Mother. She isn't autocephalous.

That's what actually bothers many Ukrainian Orthodox. Why is Moscow "mother?"
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« Reply #55 on: September 23, 2008, 02:32:20 PM »

So, the relationship with the Russian Orthodox Church is clearly given a special place.

I'd imagine that ROCOR, the Church of Japan, the Church of Estonia, etc., also have special relationships with the MP.  I'd further imagine that the self-ruled Antiochian Archdiocese here has a similar special relationship with the Patriarchate of Antioch.  I really don't see what the issue is.

Well, Japan and the Antiochian Archdiocese have no political issues with Russia and Syria, respectively. Ukraine and Russia do have a lot of unsettled political issues, and the ROC is far from neutral in these issues. Agan, how can a Ukrainian pray, during the Divine Liturgy, for his/her President, and simultaneously hear from his/her hierarchs that this President is a "little stinking, yapping dog, whose rotten teeth will soon be crushed by the mighty Russian military fist?"
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« Reply #56 on: September 23, 2008, 02:41:28 PM »

So, the relationship with the Russian Orthodox Church is clearly given a special place.

I'd imagine that ROCOR, the Church of Japan, the Church of Estonia, etc., also have special relationships with the MP.  I'd further imagine that the self-ruled Antiochian Archdiocese here has a similar special relationship with the Patriarchate of Antioch.  I really don't see what the issue is.

Well, Japan and the Antiochian Archdiocese have no political issues with Russia and Syria, respectively. Ukraine and Russia do have a lot of unsettled political issues, and the ROC is far from neutral in these issues. Agan, how can a Ukrainian pray, during the Divine Liturgy, for his/her President, and simultaneously hear from his/her hierarchs that this President is a "little stinking, yapping dog, whose rotten teeth will soon be crushed by the mighty Russian military fist?"

Okay, so it really is just an anti-Russian thing rather than a theological or ecclessiological dispute.
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« Reply #57 on: September 23, 2008, 02:43:12 PM »

...

That's what actually bothers many Ukrainian Orthodox. Why is Moscow "mother?"

It will always be Mother Church. Even if she would grant autocephalia. Just the same as EP is Mother to: Serbia, Bulgaria, Moscow and Czech and Slovak Lands (in chronological order), Alexandria is Mother to Ethiopia, while Antioch is Mother to Georgia.

Are you bothered with your mother? I love mine.
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« Reply #58 on: September 23, 2008, 02:44:47 PM »

So, the relationship with the Russian Orthodox Church is clearly given a special place.

I'd imagine that ROCOR, the Church of Japan, the Church of Estonia, etc., also have special relationships with the MP.  I'd further imagine that the self-ruled Antiochian Archdiocese here has a similar special relationship with the Patriarchate of Antioch.  I really don't see what the issue is.

Well, Japan and the Antiochian Archdiocese have no political issues with Russia and Syria, respectively. Ukraine and Russia do have a lot of unsettled political issues, and the ROC is far from neutral in these issues. Agan, how can a Ukrainian pray, during the Divine Liturgy, for his/her President, and simultaneously hear from his/her hierarchs that this President is a "little stinking, yapping dog, whose rotten teeth will soon be crushed by the mighty Russian military fist?"

Imagine those poor Bulgar(ian)s at the time of Basil Bulgaroktonos. They (we) were part of EP.

Alas! Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
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« Reply #59 on: September 23, 2008, 02:46:07 PM »

So, the relationship with the Russian Orthodox Church is clearly given a special place.

I'd imagine that ROCOR, the Church of Japan, the Church of Estonia, etc., also have special relationships with the MP.  I'd further imagine that the self-ruled Antiochian Archdiocese here has a similar special relationship with the Patriarchate of Antioch.  I really don't see what the issue is.

Well, Japan and the Antiochian Archdiocese have no political issues with Russia and Syria, respectively. Ukraine and Russia do have a lot of unsettled political issues, and the ROC is far from neutral in these issues. Agan, how can a Ukrainian pray, during the Divine Liturgy, for his/her President, and simultaneously hear from his/her hierarchs that this President is a "little stinking, yapping dog, whose rotten teeth will soon be crushed by the mighty Russian military fist?"

Okay, so it really is just an anti-Russian thing rather than a theological or ecclessiological dispute.

You got it!  This has been my point all along!

Orthodoc
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« Reply #60 on: September 23, 2008, 02:46:41 PM »

So, the relationship with the Russian Orthodox Church is clearly given a special place.

I'd imagine that ROCOR, the Church of Japan, the Church of Estonia, etc., also have special relationships with the MP.  I'd further imagine that the self-ruled Antiochian Archdiocese here has a similar special relationship with the Patriarchate of Antioch.  I really don't see what the issue is.

Well, Japan and the Antiochian Archdiocese have no political issues with Russia and Syria, respectively. Ukraine and Russia do have a lot of unsettled political issues, and the ROC is far from neutral in these issues. Agan, how can a Ukrainian pray, during the Divine Liturgy, for his/her President, and simultaneously hear from his/her hierarchs that this President is a "little stinking, yapping dog, whose rotten teeth will soon be crushed by the mighty Russian military fist?"

Okay, so it really is just an anti-Russian thing rather than a theological or ecclessiological dispute.

There are no anti-Russian feelings there, but, rather, a strong discontent and mistrust in the hierarchs, appointed by the Moscow Patriarchy. And it is, I believe, an ecclesiological and a theological issue. How can a hierarch celebrate the Divine Liturgy, during which he chants, calling people to pray "for our country and President" and simultaneously concur to the idea that this Prersident is a stinking dog?
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« Reply #61 on: September 23, 2008, 02:48:04 PM »

So, the relationship with the Russian Orthodox Church is clearly given a special place.

I'd imagine that ROCOR, the Church of Japan, the Church of Estonia, etc., also have special relationships with the MP.  I'd further imagine that the self-ruled Antiochian Archdiocese here has a similar special relationship with the Patriarchate of Antioch.  I really don't see what the issue is.

Well, Japan and the Antiochian Archdiocese have no political issues with Russia and Syria, respectively. Ukraine and Russia do have a lot of unsettled political issues, and the ROC is far from neutral in these issues. Agan, how can a Ukrainian pray, during the Divine Liturgy, for his/her President, and simultaneously hear from his/her hierarchs that this President is a "little stinking, yapping dog, whose rotten teeth will soon be crushed by the mighty Russian military fist?"

Okay, so it really is just an anti-Russian thing rather than a theological or ecclessiological dispute.

You got it!  This has been my point all along!

Orthodoc

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« Reply #62 on: September 23, 2008, 02:49:24 PM »

...
There are no anti-Russian feelings there, but, rather, a strong discontent and mistrust in the hierarchs, appointed by the Moscow Patriarchy. ...

According to the above quoted resolution, no one is appointed in Autonomous Ukrainian Church (MP) by MP.
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« Reply #63 on: September 23, 2008, 03:03:01 PM »

...
There are no anti-Russian feelings there, but, rather, a strong discontent and mistrust in the hierarchs, appointed by the Moscow Patriarchy. ...

According to the above quoted resolution, no one is appointed in Autonomous Ukrainian Church (MP) by MP.

Formally speaking - correct, but given this paragraph:

"8. Metropolitan of Kyiv and All Ukraine as Primate of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church is a permanent member of the Holy Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church" -

-- any action of the Primate and of the Synd of Bishops can be approved or disapproved by the person who presides over the Holy Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church. No?
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« Reply #64 on: September 23, 2008, 03:11:03 PM »

...

-- any action of the Primate and of the Synd of Bishops can be approved or disapproved by the person who presides over the Holy Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church. No?

No.
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« Reply #65 on: September 23, 2008, 03:24:34 PM »

...

-- any action of the Primate and of the Synd of Bishops can be approved or disapproved by the person who presides over the Holy Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church. No?

No.

So, Metropolitan Volodymyr and Patriarch Aleksiy II never talk?
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« Reply #66 on: September 23, 2008, 03:34:13 PM »

So, Metropolitan Volodymyr and Patriarch Aleksiy II never talk?  

I'm sure they do talk; they probably even have frank and candid conversations on occasion.  But that doesn't mean that the Patriarch bullies or orders the Metropolitan around.

According to the above-quoted document, the relationship between the MP and the Ukranian church is this:

1. The Ukranian Church elects all its own bishops; the election of the Metropolitan of Kyiv must be blessed by the MP, though (i.e. the Ukranian Church elects 1, and the MP ratifies the election).
2. The Ukranian Church governs itself.
3. The head of the Ukranian Church can participate in the governance of the Muscovite Church.
4. (Implied) The only way in which this relationship can change is by action of Moscow; there are 3 options:
a. Modification of the decree (to increase or lessen the involvement of the MP in the Ukranian Church).
b. Abolishment of the decree (to render the Ukranian Church as a diocese of the MP).
c. Nullification of the decree through a Tomos of Autocephaly (separating the Ukranian Church from the MP).
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« Reply #67 on: September 23, 2008, 03:41:58 PM »

So, the relationship with the Russian Orthodox Church is clearly given a special place.

I'd imagine that ROCOR, the Church of Japan, the Church of Estonia, etc., also have special relationships with the MP.  I'd further imagine that the self-ruled Antiochian Archdiocese here has a similar special relationship with the Patriarchate of Antioch.  I really don't see what the issue is.

Well, Japan and the Antiochian Archdiocese have no political issues with Russia and Syria, respectively. Ukraine and Russia do have a lot of unsettled political issues, and the ROC is far from neutral in these issues. Agan, how can a Ukrainian pray, during the Divine Liturgy, for his/her President, and simultaneously hear from his/her hierarchs that this President is a "little stinking, yapping dog, whose rotten teeth will soon be crushed by the mighty Russian military fist?"

Okay, so it really is just an anti-Russian thing rather than a theological or ecclessiological dispute.

You got it!  This has been my point all along!

Orthodoc

That's because you aren't listening. Sorry.

I think it is you who is not listening my Orthodox friend.

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« Reply #68 on: September 23, 2008, 03:53:20 PM »


I think it is you who is not listening my Orthodox friend.
Orthodoc

I am trying... I am saying there are no motives of "ethnic hatred" involved; the issue is in that ROC hierarchs are pursuing the political agenda of the Russian government, which is hostile to Ukraine (and I give quotes). To that, I keep hearing the same response, "It's just that you don't like Russians..."
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« Reply #69 on: September 23, 2008, 04:10:22 PM »

How can a hierarch celebrate the Divine Liturgy, during which he chants, calling people to pray "for our country and President" and simultaneously concur to the idea that this Prersident is a stinking dog?

These are words attributed to one priest, not to the hierarchy of the Ukrainian Church.

As it has been explained to me, the prayers for the "secular authorities" have nothing to do with supporting their policies.  One can certainly oppose the current president politically, but still pray for him.
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« Reply #70 on: September 23, 2008, 04:21:14 PM »

How can a hierarch celebrate the Divine Liturgy, during which he chants, calling people to pray "for our country and President" and simultaneously concur to the idea that this Prersident is a stinking dog?

These are words attributed to one priest, not to the hierarchy of the Ukrainian Church.

But this priest happens to be the head of a Synodical Committee of ROC. He is probably present a lot of times at meetings of the Holy Synod where Metr. Volodymyr Sabodan is also present.

As it has been explained to me, the prayers for the "secular authorities" have nothing to do with supporting their policies.  One can certainly oppose the current president politically, but still pray for him.

Well.  maybe it's possible to "oppose politically" and to pray, but it is hardly normal to call the President a "dog" and to threaten him by a military action...
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« Reply #71 on: September 23, 2008, 05:47:18 PM »

He was asked to retire by his Sobor due to allegations of a commonlaw wife, improper financial dealings etc etc etc. Given that I know priests who have met him and his so-called "common-law wife", as well as were told by him to explicitly not address him in Ukrainian, you have a hard sell.

The last part sounds strange to me. I heard him speak Ukrainian. His command on the Ukrainian language is very good. Maybe he speaks Russian in his everyday life, because he is a native of the Donetsk oblast, the part of the Ukrainian Southeast where the majority of people speak Russian. But that hardly makes him a "Russophile." When he speaks from a podium, he speaks very beautiful, grammatic, idiomatic Ukrainian.

And the MP in this case has authority over their bishops. They asked him to retire, he refused. Simple as that. The rest of Orthodoxy are bystanders in this issue. It is a local council issue, that was addressed by the Russians.

It should not be like that. It's just not right.

It is very strange, for a hierarch fleunt in both languages, to refuse to address a priest in Ukrainian, in a Kyivan Cathedral. Not only did he refuse to speak Ukrainian, he told the priest to speak only Russian. And yet shortly thereafter he refused to resign from the episcopacy and created a schism in the Church of God. How pleasant.
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« Reply #72 on: September 23, 2008, 06:21:00 PM »

He was asked to retire by his Sobor due to allegations of a commonlaw wife, improper financial dealings etc etc etc. Given that I know priests who have met him and his so-called "common-law wife", as well as were told by him to explicitly not address him in Ukrainian, you have a hard sell.

The last part sounds strange to me. I heard him speak Ukrainian. His command on the Ukrainian language is very good. Maybe he speaks Russian in his everyday life, because he is a native of the Donetsk oblast, the part of the Ukrainian Southeast where the majority of people speak Russian. But that hardly makes him a "Russophile." When he speaks from a podium, he speaks very beautiful, grammatic, idiomatic Ukrainian.

And the MP in this case has authority over their bishops. They asked him to retire, he refused. Simple as that. The rest of Orthodoxy are bystanders in this issue. It is a local council issue, that was addressed by the Russians.

It should not be like that. It's just not right.

It is very strange, for a hierarch fleunt in both languages, to refuse to address a priest in Ukrainian, in a Kyivan Cathedral. Not only did he refuse to speak Ukrainian, he told the priest to speak only Russian. And yet shortly thereafter he refused to resign from the episcopacy and created a schism in the Church of God. How pleasant.

From Stanford University regarding the UOC-KP and Filaret -

===========

The Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the Kyivan Patriarchate (UOC-KP)

The UOC-KP, the second largest Orthodox church with 1300 parishes and 1600 priests, is rooted in the eastern and central Ukraine and in the region of Volhynia.  Enjoying considerable popular support, it emerged in 1992 when the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church (UAOC) joined a breakaway faction of the Moscow Patriarch Church under recently ousted Metropolitan Filaret.  (Overnight he metamorphosed from an anti-Ukrainian, Soviet church bureaucrat into a militant nationalist, following the vote of 90 percent of Ukrainians for independence.)  Church historian Bohdan Bociurkiw terms the UOC-KP “a quasi-state church.”  Staunchly patriotic in its use of Ukrainian and in its unequivocal support of independent Ukrainian statehood, it was actively protected by Filaret’s political ally, former President Leonid Kravchuk. From the start the UOC-KP has been riddled by scandal.  Its first two Patriarchs, aged Mstyslav (Skrypnik) of the U.S. UAOC diaspora, who died in 1993, and Volodymyr, formerly Vasyl Romanyuk, who had spent 19 years in prison as a religious dissident, were both deeply disillusioned by Filaret’s shortcomings.  Filaret has failed to obtain coveted canonical recognition, and he has developed ties with dubious ultranationalist elements, such as the Ukrainian National Self-Defense Organization (UNSO), set on exploiting the church for political ends.   As a result, five UOC-KP bishops reestablished the UAOC in 1993, and five more UOC-KP bishops returned to the UOC-MP fold in 1994. When Patriarch Volodymyr tried to dismiss Filaret for insubordination and for his involvement in the disappearance of three million rubles from diocesan coffers, Filaret threatened his titular superior.  Before the issue could be resolved, Patriarch Volodymyr died on 14 July 1995, apparently of a heart attack.   Police and UNSO members in military uniforms intervened in his funeral on 18 July, injuring 70 participants and suffering two fatalities in a clash over his final resting place (St. Sophia Cathedral ultimately, or under a nearby sidewalk just outside the cathedral wall where the body presently is interred?).  When Filaret was elected, unopposed, as Volodymyr’s successor in October 1995, five more bishops and 20 lay electors revolted  and joined the UAOC.  Filaret’s latest strategy has been to seek reapproachment with the Ukrainian Eastern-Rite Catholic Church.  He was the only Orthodox hierarch present at the consecration of the new head of that church, Exarch Lubomir Husar of Kyiv, on 3 June 1996.  Ukrainian Catholics have come under criticism for welcoming him, given his rabidly hostile attitude towards Catholics in Communist days.

=========================

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« Reply #73 on: September 24, 2008, 09:20:42 PM »

I'm always amused hearing anti-KP people (who belong to the ROC) denounce Filaret as this immoral monster. Folks, the guy was a ROC hierarch for several decades! But it gets better: he headed the Ukrainian Exarchate (which was like half of all MP by number of the faithful). Essentially, he was BISHOP NUMBER TWO of the Russian Church. They made him locum tenens of the Patriarchate! How do his real and alleged crimes reflect on the RUSSIAN Church? Moreover, are we supposed to believe his deposition and excommunication was not politically motivated? If so, how did they suffer him for decades?

On the other hand, it's hard to accept the guy as a genuine Ukrainephile - for all the same reasons.

Ultimately, this is not about the person of Filaret (and I agree - he would do good to retire). It's simple, really:

1) Canonical UOC is part of ROC. This is just the fact. I think detractors underestimate the degree of its autonomy (after all, Met. Volodymyr is no puppet. BTW, it that historic MP elections, Met. Volodymyr Sabodan was a candidate - and he did better than Filaret, ultimately losing a run-off to Alexi by like 140 to 160). But make no mistake - MP influences the UOC a great deal, including selecting bishops and abbots. Some fairly prominent UOC bishops are known to be anti-Ukrainian.
2) Russian Church is connected to (and partly controlled by) the Russian state. No big surprise here - tell me when it weren't?
3) And Russian state, folks, is no friend to Ukraine. It just isn't. This, together with 1 and 2, made for some ugly sights - like Orthodox churches used as heavy propaganda machines for a particular political candidate (and his political party) deemed at the moment pro-Russian.

...and I'm not even touching on this Russian nationalist, Third-Rome, "one-great-undivided-Russian-nation", Ukraine-(and Belarus-) denying BS ideology that is like a crypto-dogma in the ROC, both in Russia and in Eastern-Southern Ukraine. MP will never publish any of this in any official document, but the culture can be very unwelcoming to a Ukrainian. And yes, there are Ukrainian nationalist nutcases, and yes, those are found in the KP (if in a church at all). But note that even most of those do not claim that Russians do not exist as a nation and should all just drop their silly jargon they call a language and learn proper Ukrainian. (Funny thing - leading demagogue of the infamous UNSO, after a stint as an Eastern Rite Catholic and - very publicly - providing muscle for the KP is now, apparently, a loyal son of the ROC and an instructor of Russian pro-Kremlin Nashi youth movement. He teaches them how to beat up political opponents in a street fight.)

So, you see, choices made by some Orthodox Ukrainians are understandable, if not totally justified.

(side note - no, really, how is Moscow the Mother of Kiev?)


EDIT:  Forbidden 'U' word replaced with more polite reference  -PtA
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« Reply #74 on: September 24, 2008, 09:38:11 PM »

I'm always amused hearing anti-KP people (who belong to the ROC) denounce Filaret as this immoral monster. Folks, the guy was a ROC hierarch for several decades! But it gets better: he headed the Ukrainian Exarchate (which was like half of all MP by number of the faithful). Essentially, he was BISHOP NUMBER TWO of the Russian Church. They made him locum tenens of the Patriarchate! How do his real and alleged crimes reflect on the RUSSIAN Church? Moreover, are we supposed to believe his deposition and excommunication was not politically motivated? If so, how did they suffer him for decades?

Very simple answer.  He had both the protection and backing of the communist pary!

=============

No.  The only conclusion one can come up with is that he got away with it because of his ties with the KGB and the backing of the communist party.  Once the communist influence was no more, the church did what it had to regarding this man.

After the death of Patriarch Pimen Filaret expected to become the next Patriarch of Moscow.  However, this was a free election which was not controlled by the communists.  Because of that Filaret did poorly. (see vote statistics below)

Regarding the free elections of the MP after the fall of communism -

A Long Walk To Church - A Contempory History Of Russian Orthodoxy -

In the first ballot Alexi received 139 votes, Vladimir 107, and Filaret 66.  In the runoff vote Alexi received 166 of the 309 valid votes, and Vladimir received 143.  Alexi was declared elected.
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« Reply #75 on: September 24, 2008, 10:57:05 PM »

I'm always amused hearing anti-KP people (who belong to the ROC) denounce Filaret as this immoral monster. Folks, the guy was a ROC hierarch for several decades! But it gets better: he headed the Ukrainian Exarchate (which was like half of all MP by number of the faithful). Essentially, he was BISHOP NUMBER TWO of the Russian Church. They made him locum tenens of the Patriarchate! How do his real and alleged crimes reflect on the RUSSIAN Church? Moreover, are we supposed to believe his deposition and excommunication was not politically motivated? If so, how did they suffer him for decades?

No.  The only conclusion one can come up with is that he got away with it because of his ties with the KGB and the backing of the communist party.  Once the communist influence was no more, the church did what it had to regarding this man.

So he had backing of the KGB and therefore became second-in-command of the ROC? What does it tell you about the Episcopate of that church, in general? Was he the only one with such ties? Besides, wasn't he deposed for "schismatic activities" as opposed to personal sin and KGB ties?

BTW, I don't defend Filaret much. High place in the hierarchy, travel abroad, appointment to a lucrative (and politically important due to the "threat of Ukrainian bourgeous nationalism") Kyiv see - knowing the SSSR realities, this does look like a career of a trusted KGB informant. It's just hypocritical coming from the fervent supporters of the MP. Glass house, stones, all that. Besides, my point is that Ukrainian autocephalism is not about person of Filaret. He rather might be one of the biggest obstacles for the cause of an independent Ukrainian particular Church. If he intended to reach that goal, his moves were very, very sloppy.
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« Reply #76 on: September 24, 2008, 11:10:23 PM »

...

That's what actually bothers many Ukrainian Orthodox. Why is Moscow "mother?"

It will always be Mother Church. Even if she would grant autocephalia. Just the same as EP is Mother to: Serbia, Bulgaria, Moscow and Czech and Slovak Lands (in chronological order), Alexandria is Mother to Ethiopia, while Antioch is Mother to Georgia.

Are you bothered with your mother? I love mine.

We just celebrated 1020 anniversary of the Baptism of Rus'. Moscow is 850 or so years young. Which makes the See of Kyiv like two centuries older than Moscow the city (let alone an imperial capital). Who's the Mother of who, again?
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« Reply #77 on: September 25, 2008, 10:02:42 AM »

...

That's what actually bothers many Ukrainian Orthodox. Why is Moscow "mother?"

It will always be Mother Church. Even if she would grant autocephalia. Just the same as EP is Mother to: Serbia, Bulgaria, Moscow and Czech and Slovak Lands (in chronological order), Alexandria is Mother to Ethiopia, while Antioch is Mother to Georgia.

Are you bothered with your mother? I love mine.

We just celebrated 1020 anniversary of the Baptism of Rus'. Moscow is 850 or so years young. Which makes the See of Kyiv like two centuries older than Moscow the city (let alone an imperial capital). Who's the Mother of who, again?

Comment:  Besides, my point is that Ukrainian autocephalism is not about person of Filaret. He rather might be one of the biggest obstacles for the cause of an independent Ukrainian particular Church. If he intended to reach that goal, his moves were very, very sloppy.
   
Reply:  So why are you in here defending both him and his self proclaimed autocephally?

Comment:  We just celebrated 1020 anniversary of the Baptism of Rus'. Moscow is 850 or so years young. Which makes the See of Kyiv like two centuries older than Moscow the city (let alone an imperial capital). Who's the Mother of who, again?

Reply:  Yes you celebrated the 'baptism of RUS' not Ukraine.  So we will have to agree to disagree on just what RUS comprises of.  To most people it is Russia not just Ukraine (borderland).  The autocephalous Orthodox Church created by Constaninople included all of Russia and the Northern Lands.  Not just Ukraine.  After the Tartar invasions the See was moved from Kiev to Moscow.  That is why it is recognized as the legitamite successor of the created Patriarchate by not only its mother (who created it) but by the rest of the canonical worldwide Orthodoxy.  Are you implying that a mother can not move with her household?  If my mother moved from one location to another does that mean I can no longer accept her as my legatimate mother in her hew household?

The Patriarchate of Antioch moved from Antioch to Damascus, Syria.  Does this mean that worldwide Orthodoxy should no longer recognize it as the mother of the the Patriarchate of Georgia?

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« Reply #78 on: September 25, 2008, 11:57:27 AM »


Comment:  Besides, my point is that Ukrainian autocephalism is not about person of Filaret. He rather might be one of the biggest obstacles for the cause of an independent Ukrainian particular Church. If he intended to reach that goal, his moves were very, very sloppy.
   
Reply:  So why are you in here defending both him and his self proclaimed autocephally?

Because it's NOT JUST ABOUT HIM. Sheesh - it's right up there in the post you reply to!

Comment:  We just celebrated 1020 anniversary of the Baptism of Rus'. Moscow is 850 or so years young. Which makes the See of Kyiv like two centuries older than Moscow the city (let alone an imperial capital). Who's the Mother of who, again?

Reply:  Yes you celebrated the 'baptism of RUS' not Ukraine.  So we will have to agree to disagree on just what RUS comprises of.  To most people it is Russia not just Ukraine (borderland).  The autocephalous Orthodox Church created by Constaninople included all of Russia and the Northern Lands.  Not just Ukraine. 
The Church that got her autocephaly from Constantinople did not include Metropolis of Kyiv at all. When Muscovy acquired Ukrainian lands (Treaty of Pereyaslav), it used diplomatic pressure and bribes to transfer the Metropolis to the Patriarchate of Moscow. From what I understand, EP Synod declared the act illegal and deposed the Patriarch. This is what allowed EP to create an autocephalous Polish Church on the "canonical territory" of Kyiv Metropolis.
BTW, is it just me or do you show some of the same attitude that keeps some Ukrainians out of the Church of Moscow? "All of Russia", "just the borderland"... Ukraine is a separate nation from Russia, and sham etymology and history many in Russia (and her Church) espouse are just plain offensive. Again, I'm not saying this is the reason to keep out of a canonical Church - but this is big obstacle.
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« Reply #79 on: September 25, 2008, 02:08:15 PM »

Comment:  BTW, is it just me or do you show some of the same attitude that keeps some Ukrainians out of the Church of Moscow? "All of Russia", "just the borderland"... Ukraine is a separate nation from Russia, and sham etymology and history many in Russia (and her Church) espouse are just plain offensive. Again, I'm not saying this is the reason to keep out of a canonical Church - but this is big obstacle.
   
   
Reply:  That is because I am responding to answers that have nothing to do with the creation of an autocephalous church, the early church fathers, or the canons of the church that stipulate how and autocephalous church is created.  Instead all I have received back so far are justifications which are based on ethnic hatred and distrust,  supposed insults made, and questionable versions of history.  None of which has anything to do with the church.  What I am hearing is that some of you would rather be part of an ethnic noncanonical church based on  pthe above reasons you give.  That only proves my point that though I support an eventual autocephalous Ukrainain Church once it matures enough to understand why it is Orthodox.

So now you are also saying that the mother church (the EP) sold her children by taking bribes!

I find your last sentence contradictory.  If its not a reason to stay out of a canonical church why bring up the reasons you have to try and justify it?

Now we seem to be getting more into history than reasons to defend the UOC-KP maybe you should start a thead on Ukrainian history.

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« Reply #80 on: September 25, 2008, 02:18:30 PM »

... Which makes the See of Kyiv like two centuries older than Moscow the city (let alone an imperial capital). Who's the Mother of who, again?

See of Jerusalem is the oldest one, yet it was part of Antioch until it gained autocephalia at Ecumenical Council.

Who is the Mother of whom, again?
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« Reply #81 on: September 25, 2008, 02:22:13 PM »

.... From what I understand, EP Synod declared the act illegal and ....

Too many advocates of "Ukrainian Patriarchate" presented awkward understanding, poor reasoning and distorted history too many times.

Once you become mature, and that looks like it'll take centuries, you might eventually gain autocephalia from your Mother - Moscow.
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« Reply #82 on: September 25, 2008, 02:41:41 PM »


Moscow is NOT the mother of Ukraine.

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« Reply #83 on: September 25, 2008, 02:45:26 PM »


Moscow is NOT the mother of Ukraine.



Than who is supposed to be Mother of an Ukrainian Church?
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« Reply #84 on: September 25, 2008, 02:46:56 PM »


Moscow is NOT the mother of Ukraine.



That is right since the MP came from The Ukraine in the first place
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« Reply #85 on: September 25, 2008, 02:48:04 PM »


Moscow is NOT the mother of Ukraine.



Than who is supposed to be Mother of an Ukrainian Church?

Actualy it is the Ukriane that is the mother Church
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« Reply #86 on: September 25, 2008, 02:55:26 PM »


Moscow is NOT the mother of Ukraine.



Than who is supposed to be Mother of an Ukrainian Church?

Actualy it is the Ukriane that is the mother Church

Listen, pal, you might fool someone to be an Orthodox Priest, but I'm not among these. You feature fundamental misunderstanding of the term "Mother" and are confusing it with geography.

So, spare me a trouble and don't address your stupidities to me - I'm debating with Heorhij, Stanislav and my sister Lisa. You are free to support them, but don't quote me, don't address me, avoid me in a wide circle.
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« Reply #87 on: September 25, 2008, 03:17:41 PM »


Reply:  That is because I am responding to answers that have nothing to do with the creation of an autocephalous church, the early church fathers, or the canons of the church that stipulate how and autocephalous church is created.
 

To be fair, Canons do not really stipulate "how and autocephalous church is created". That's why the creation of each new Church is a new ad hoc struggle - look at the OCA. Now, it seems that Filaret broke Holy Canons - that's why the other Churches treat him as radioactive. He thought that if he will just have buildings, bank account and State support from Kravchuk everyone will recognize him - no matter how he got those things.
Instead all I have received back so far are justifications which are based on ethnic hatred and distrust,  supposed insults made, and questionable versions of history.
Corrections: it is justified distrust, demonstrated agenda and real history (and modern reality).
  None of which has anything to do with the church. 
Fair enough.
What I am hearing is that some of you would rather be part of an ethnic noncanonical church based on  pthe above reasons you give. 
SOME are, indeed, nationalists and would rather be a part of a non-canonical ethnic church. Many, many others just find it difficult to be a part of a canonical ethnic church openly hostile to one's own nation. You're not telling me that there is no phyletism in Russian Church, or that Russian chauvinism (what passes for "patriotism" and even "Orthodoxy" nowadays, and is silently supported by government) is not hostile to Ukraine?
That only proves my point that though I support an eventual autocephalous Ukrainain Church once it matures enough to understand why it is Orthodox.

Right, and in the meantime, leave people in a church your own bishops declared "devoid of grace". No valid sacraments. That, to me, is an amazing display of true Christian charity.  Huh
So now you are also saying that the mother church (the EP) sold her children by taking bribes!
The Patriarch did. And the Moscow bought. This is not a matter of opinion btw: IIRC said Patriarch was deposed the next year for simony, ant the transaction reversed by Synod. Of course, they had no real power to enforce said decision on the territory where Russian Empire asserted control. (Side note: if one side sells, and other buys ecclesial authority: aren't both guilty of the same sin?)

I find your last sentence contradictory.  If its not a reason to stay out of a canonical church why bring up the reasons you have to try and justify it?
That's because writing that post, I had temporary brain halt and forgot the word "temptation" in English. Those are not valid reasons, but they are real enough to create an enormous temptation for many, many people to avoid the canonical jurisdiction. Imagine American Revolutionaries finding themselves in a Church where priests openly preach anathema to anyone daring to oppose King George. Or blacks in a Church where bishops openly preach racism and slavery. Would you then blame them (and be really surprised) when they'll follow a demagogue Bishop into schism?
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« Reply #88 on: September 25, 2008, 03:26:43 PM »

.... From what I understand, EP Synod declared the act illegal and ....

Too many advocates of "Ukrainian Patriarchate" presented awkward understanding, poor reasoning and distorted history too many times.

Once you become mature, and that looks like it'll take centuries, you might eventually gain autocephalia from your Mother - Moscow.

So why don't you demonstrate your superior wisdom and dazzle us with the truth you obviously possess? How DID Moscow gain jurisdiction over Kyiv? I usually hear that "Kyiv Metropolitan moved to Vladimir then Moscow" - but that would make say St. Petro Mohyla an uncanonical bishop, which is clearly not the case.

No one is really "mature", and coming from a supporter of Moscow, this is highly pretentious. We will gain autocephaly when the Lord thinks it is time. It might take centuries, it might happen tomorrow - and not necessarily (although not unlikely) from Moscow.
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« Reply #89 on: September 25, 2008, 03:27:50 PM »

... (Side note: if one side sells, and other buys ecclesial authority: aren't both guilty of the same sin?)

There was no purchase of ecclessial authority in what you were describing. No one was proclaimed bishop, or a priest, or a diacon.

Imagine American Revolutionaries finding themselves in a Church where priests openly preach anathema to anyone daring to oppose King George. Or blacks in a Church where bishops openly preach racism and slavery. Would you then blame them (and be really surprised) when they'll follow a demagogue Bishop into schism?

Completely false analogy. Bishops and Priest of Church in Ukraine (UOC - MP) are mostly Ukrainians. Are you claiming that they hate themselves, their own ethnicity, and campaign against it?
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« Reply #90 on: September 25, 2008, 03:29:42 PM »


Listen, pal, you might fool someone to be an Orthodox Priest, but I'm not among these. You feature fundamental misunderstanding of the term "Mother" and are confusing it with geography.

So, spare me a trouble and don't address your stupidities to me - I'm debating with Heorhij, Stanislav and my sister Lisa. You are free to support them, but don't quote me, don't address me, avoid me in a wide circle.
This is one thing that always amazes me. What makes people think they can boss around people on Internet boards? Is it arrogance?
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« Reply #91 on: September 25, 2008, 03:32:26 PM »

...

So why don't you demonstrate your superior wisdom and dazzle us with the truth you obviously possess? How DID Moscow gain jurisdiction over Kyiv? I usually hear that "Kyiv Metropolitan moved to Vladimir then Moscow" - but that would make say St. Petro Mohyla an uncanonical bishop, which is clearly not the case.

Why do you think that would make St. Peter Mogila an uncanonical bishop? Explain it.

...It might take centuries, it might happen tomorrow - and not necessarily (although not unlikely) from Moscow.

Necessarily from Moscow. Even the Ecumenical Council can't grant you autocephalia in opposition to Moscow.

Though, you might estabish yet another "Orthodox-Catholic-Pan-Paflagonian" church that no Orthodox would recognize.
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« Reply #92 on: September 25, 2008, 03:33:55 PM »


Listen, pal, you might fool someone to be an Orthodox Priest, but I'm not among these. You feature fundamental misunderstanding of the term "Mother" and are confusing it with geography.

So, spare me a trouble and don't address your stupidities to me - I'm debating with Heorhij, Stanislav and my sister Lisa. You are free to support them, but don't quote me, don't address me, avoid me in a wide circle.
This is one thing that always amazes me. What makes people think they can boss around people on Internet boards? Is it arrogance?

Perhaps.

Perhaps I just retain the right not to debate with fakes.
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« Reply #93 on: September 25, 2008, 03:35:10 PM »


See of Jerusalem is the oldest one, yet it was part of Antioch until it gained autocephalia at Ecumenical Council.

Who is the Mother of whom, again?
Did you actually hear anyone refer to Antioch as "Mother" of Jerusalem? I sure didn't. On the other hand, I heard Jerusalem called "Mother" of all other Churches, since, well, it is the oldest one, and all the Apostles were part of that Church before leaving to preach.

Question: did MP become Mother of Georgian Church when they merged? Is Moscow now Georgia's Mother?
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« Reply #94 on: September 25, 2008, 03:41:11 PM »

 Wink
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« Reply #95 on: September 25, 2008, 03:42:27 PM »

...

So why don't you demonstrate your superior wisdom and dazzle us with the truth you obviously possess? How DID Moscow gain jurisdiction over Kyiv? I usually hear that "Kyiv Metropolitan moved to Vladimir then Moscow" - but that would make say St. Petro Mohyla an uncanonical bishop, which is clearly not the case.

Why do you think that would make St. Peter Mogila an uncanonical bishop? Explain it.
Since, well, he was the Metropolitan of Kyiv - but not under Moscow, but rather under Constantinople. If we believe the theory that the See of Kyiv was transferred to Moscow - St. Peter can not be a real Bishop of Kyiv, can he?

...It might take centuries, it might happen tomorrow - and not necessarily (although not unlikely) from Moscow.

Necessarily from Moscow. Even the Ecumenical Council can't grant you autocephalia in opposition to Moscow.
That's just one interpretation of Canons... although so far it seems likely that Moscow will be involved in some way.

Though, you might estabish yet another "Orthodox-Catholic-Pan-Paflagonian" church that no Orthodox would recognize.
Thanks, but we already have several.
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« Reply #96 on: September 25, 2008, 03:46:58 PM »

...
If we believe the theory that the See of Kyiv was transferred to Moscow - St. Peter can not be a real Bishop of Kyiv, can he?
...

Following that logic, St. Gregory Palamas wasn't real bishop of Thessanolika, was he?
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« Reply #97 on: September 25, 2008, 03:47:45 PM »

...

Question: did MP become Mother of Georgian Church when they merged? Is Moscow now Georgia's Mother?

Can you have two mothers?
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« Reply #98 on: September 25, 2008, 03:50:34 PM »

...
Did you actually hear anyone refer to Antioch as "Mother" of Jerusalem? I sure didn't.
Since when are you the measure of Canonicity, Orthodoxy and knowledge?

On the other hand, I heard Jerusalem called "Mother" of all other Churches, since, well, it is the oldest one, and all the Apostles were part of that Church before leaving to preach.

Me too.

Question:

Who do you think would be Mother of supposed autocephalous Church of Ukraine?
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« Reply #99 on: September 25, 2008, 03:54:03 PM »

...
If we believe the theory that the See of Kyiv was transferred to Moscow - St. Peter can not be a real Bishop of Kyiv, can he?
...

Following that logic, St. Gregory Palamas wasn't real bishop of Thessanolika, was he?
See of Thessalonika was transferred somewhere?
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« Reply #100 on: September 25, 2008, 04:25:05 PM »

...
See of Thessalonika was transferred somewhere?

I'd be much obliged to teach you about that, once you have answered:

Who is supposed to be Mother of imagined Orthodox Church of Ukraine?

I'm asking this for the third time.
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« Reply #101 on: September 25, 2008, 04:50:33 PM »

...
See of Thessalonika was transferred somewhere?

I'd be much obliged to teach you about that, once you have answered:

Who is supposed to be Mother of imagined Orthodox Church of Ukraine?

I'm asking this for the third time.

The mother of the Orthodox Patriarchate of RUS (Russia & Ukraine) is the EP.  Who obviously, along with the rest of worldwide Orthodoxy see it as the same church.

Once again, if you want to talk about Ukrainian history start another thread.  Ukrainian history real or preceived does not justify the creation of either self proclaimed churches.  You all contradict yourselves constantly when you all agree Filaret is a sham but then go and try and defend what he did which was to create divisions within Orthodoxy for his own glory.

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Fr Alexander.  Where is your church and what jurisdiction are you under?  Are you the same Fr Alexander that is a moderator in the Byzantine Catholic Forum?
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« Reply #102 on: September 25, 2008, 04:57:01 PM »

...
See of Thessalonika was transferred somewhere?

I'd be much obliged to teach you about that, once you have answered:

Who is supposed to be Mother of imagined Orthodox Church of Ukraine?

I'm asking this for the third time.

The mother of the Orthodox Patriarchate of RUS (Russia & Ukraine) is the EP.  Who obviously, along with the rest of worldwide Orthodoxy see it as the same church.

Once again, if you want to talk about Ukrainian history start another thread.  Ukrainian history real or preceived does not justify the creation of either self proclaimed churches.  You all contradict yourselves constantly when you all agree Filaret is a sham but then go and try and defend what he did which was to create divisions within Orthodoxy for his own glory.

Orthodoc

Fr Alexander.  Where is your church and what jurisdiction are you under?  Are you the same Fr Alexander that is a moderator in the Byzantine Catholic Forum?

He's a participant in the American Orthodox Catholic Church, a vagante and non-canonical group.
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« Reply #103 on: September 25, 2008, 05:20:28 PM »

Once again, if you want to talk about Ukrainian history start another thread.  Ukrainian history real or preceived does not justify the creation of either self proclaimed churches.  You all contradict yourselves constantly when you all agree Filaret is a sham but then go and try and defend what he did which was to create divisions within Orthodoxy for his own glory.
I defend the people who followed him. I thought it's quite clear. They are in a real spiritual trouble, due to the divisions you alluded to, created by Filaret, Synod of Moscow, politicians on Russian side, politicians on Ukrainian side etc.

Besides, I'm not sure Filaret is bigger sham than some Russian bishops. Should we depose every bishop suspected of dealing with the KGB? Nevertheless,  I agree he should retire, regardless of if he thinks he was mistreated by the MP or not, just for the greater good of his flock, Ukraine, Ukrainian Church, Russian Church and World Orthodoxy. But he'd too selfish I guess
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« Reply #104 on: September 25, 2008, 05:24:04 PM »


Who is supposed to be Mother of imagined Orthodox Church of Ukraine?

I don't think it's the matter of dogma, but in my opinion, it should be Constantinople.

Now I patiently wait for your superior wisdom. So far, you called a bunch of people "immature" and "lacking of understanding" and then asked a bunch of questions,not answering even one.
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« Reply #105 on: September 25, 2008, 06:11:33 PM »


It is very strange, for a hierarch fleunt in both languages, to refuse to address a priest in Ukrainian, in a Kyivan Cathedral. Not only did he refuse to speak Ukrainian, he told the priest to speak only Russian. And yet shortly thereafter he refused to resign from the episcopacy and created a schism in the Church of God. How pleasant.

Was the visiting priest, by any chance, a Canadian Ukrainian? I am asking because we, "Ukrainian Ukrainians," sometimes have trouble understanding the Ukrainian language of those who have lived in North America in several generations, especially if those people's ancestors are from Halychyna (the extreme West and Southwest of Ukraine).
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« Reply #106 on: September 25, 2008, 06:18:10 PM »

Once again, if you want to talk about Ukrainian history start another thread.  Ukrainian history real or preceived does not justify the creation of either self proclaimed churches.  You all contradict yourselves constantly when you all agree Filaret is a sham but then go and try and defend what he did which was to create divisions within Orthodoxy for his own glory.
I defend the people who followed him. I thought it's quite clear. They are in a real spiritual trouble, due to the divisions you alluded to, created by Filaret, Synod of Moscow, politicians on Russian side, politicians on Ukrainian side etc.

Besides, I'm not sure Filaret is bigger sham than some Russian bishops. Should we depose every bishop suspected of dealing with the KGB? Nevertheless,  I agree he should retire, regardless of if he thinks he was mistreated by the MP or not, just for the greater good of his flock, Ukraine, Ukrainian Church, Russian Church and World Orthodoxy. But he'd too selfish I guess

Hurray!  One entire post that we both agree with!  Who said progress is impossible!

Though he did more than dealt with the communists and KGB.  He created a schism in the church with the support of some of thos excommunists.

Orthodoc
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« Reply #107 on: September 25, 2008, 08:36:18 PM »


Though he did more than dealt with the communists and KGB.  He created a schism in the church with the support of some of thos excommunists.

Orthodoc

The schism was already underway. You can look at his actions as a noble effort to provide Ukrainians with a Church (although you'd probably be wrong about his intentions).

In ideal world, Filaret would retire to some monastery, and then EP, Moscow and less notorious Ukrainian bishops would sit down and come up with the solution. In reality, all aforementioned are too consumed by petty politics.
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« Reply #108 on: September 25, 2008, 09:18:59 PM »


Though he did more than dealt with the communists and KGB.  He created a schism in the church with the support of some of thos excommunists.

Orthodoc

The schism was already underway. You can look at his actions as a noble effort to provide Ukrainians with a Church (although you'd probably be wrong about his intentions). In ideal world, Filaret would retire to some monastery, and then EP, Moscow and less notorious Ukrainian bishops would sit down and come up with the solution. In reality, all aforementioned are too consumed by petty politics.


OOPS!  Knew it was too good to last!  His actions have spoken for themselves.  Reread some of what has been posted not only by myself but others.

Orthodoc
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« Reply #109 on: September 25, 2008, 11:08:22 PM »


OOPS!  Knew it was too good to last!  His actions have spoken for themselves.  Reread some of what has been posted not only by myself but others.

Orthodoc
Well... I admit it's highly unlikely that the guy has anything noble on his mind (even if he does, he still should retire - and if that was the case, he would.). I sort of doubt, though, that the other side is so lily-white in their intentions. They are cut from the same cloth, actually. That's the reason Filaret is so bad at playing patriot - 'cause he's not.
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« Reply #110 on: September 26, 2008, 01:49:33 AM »

...
Fr Alexander.  Where is your church and what jurisdiction are you under? ...

It must be a very special jurisdiction, calling people names instead of refuting their arguments. See the image of personal message I received from him:

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« Reply #111 on: September 26, 2008, 01:57:16 AM »

It must be a very special jurisdiction, calling people names instead of refuting their arguments. See the image of personal message I received from him:

I was never called any names by Father Alexander even as I challenged His Jurisdiction.  No complaints from me.   angel

We don't know what you asked him that would trigger such a response, which I'm not sure if a PM can be reproduced in the public or private fora or vice versa?   Huh

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« Reply #112 on: September 26, 2008, 02:00:02 AM »

...
Was the visiting priest, by any chance, a Canadian Ukrainian? I am asking because we, "Ukrainian Ukrainians," sometimes have trouble understanding the Ukrainian language of those who have lived in North America in several generations, especially if those people's ancestors are from Halychyna (the extreme West and Southwest of Ukraine).

That's probably because their language isn't ukrainianized, as the language of those remaining to live in those areas of Ukraine. They speak as their ancestors were speaking several generations ago, and that obviously isn't Ukrainian language.
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« Reply #113 on: September 26, 2008, 02:06:01 AM »

It must be a very special jurisdiction, calling people names instead of refuting their arguments. See the image of personal message I received from him:

I was never called any names by Father Alexander even as I challenged His Jurisdiction.  No complaints from me.   angel

We don't know what you asked him that would trigger such a response, which I'm not sure if a PM can be reproduced in the public or private fora or vice versa?   Huh



The only post I addressed to him was post #86 on this thread. I sent him no personal messages, he cam claim otherwise and I'll prove such a claim false.

It's my PM, I received it, it was addressed to me and I am free to publish it wherever I want, by the laws of my country, by the laws of server host country and by the laws of domain registrar.
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« Reply #114 on: September 26, 2008, 02:06:21 AM »


It is very strange, for a hierarch fleunt in both languages, to refuse to address a priest in Ukrainian, in a Kyivan Cathedral. Not only did he refuse to speak Ukrainian, he told the priest to speak only Russian. And yet shortly thereafter he refused to resign from the episcopacy and created a schism in the Church of God. How pleasant.

Was the visiting priest, by any chance, a Canadian Ukrainian? I am asking because we, "Ukrainian Ukrainians," sometimes have trouble understanding the Ukrainian language of those who have lived in North America in several generations, especially if those people's ancestors are from Halychyna (the extreme West and Southwest of Ukraine).

If it was the dialect of Ukrainian, how would Russian be better?
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« Reply #115 on: September 26, 2008, 02:09:19 AM »

...Should we depose every bishop suspected of dealing with the KGB? ...

Who are "we"?

Why do you restrict it to KGB? Would the same apply to CIA, BND, etc.?
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« Reply #116 on: September 26, 2008, 02:16:54 AM »

The only post I addressed to him was post #86 on this thread. I sent him no personal messages, he cam claim otherwise and I'll prove such a claim false.

While I agree with you in Reply #86, I didn't feel the need to openly challenge anyone on that note especially if he wasn't bothering me.

It's my PM, I received it, it was addressed to me and I am free to publish it wherever I want, by the laws of my country, by the laws of server host country and by the laws of domain registrar.

I recall seeing a warning about people not being allowed to publish messages from the private fora to the public fora and from PM's to either fora.   angel
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« Reply #117 on: September 26, 2008, 02:19:28 AM »


Who is supposed to be Mother of imagined Orthodox Church of Ukraine?

I don't think it's the matter of dogma, but in my opinion, it should be Constantinople.

Typical Roman Catholic view of ecclessiology.

It's not a matter of dogma, it's a matter of canons (that canonized ancient custom).


Now I patiently wait for your superior wisdom.

Follow in my next post.

Edited to remove derogatory word.
 Derogatory comments towards Roman Catholics. Please refrain from using such language in the future. See the forum rules and policiesfor more information.
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« Reply #118 on: September 26, 2008, 03:58:15 AM »

There is obvious ignorance, and misunderstanding of the notion "autocephalia", of those advocating autocephalia for so-called "Ukrainian Church".

A) The Church (as a whole) functioned according to Metropolitan model during the first centuries. There was no autocephalia and autocephalous Churches between 1st and 4th century.

B) By the Canons of Ecumenical Councils (2nd, 3rd, 4th and either 5th or 6th) first "the ancient custom" of autocephalia is canonized of the sees: Rome, Alexandria and Antioch, than establishment of the see of Constantinopolis, than grant of autocephalia to Jerusalem from Antioch, than grant of autocephalia to Cyprus from Antioch. All done by Ecumenical Councils.

B.1.) It should be noted that two oldest Christian nations, and theri respective Churches, Armenia and Ethiopia, were neither canonized as autocephalous by an Ecumenical Council.

B.1.1.) It should be noted that Ethiopia was part of the See of Alexandria, until several years ago, when OO Alexandria granted her autocephalia. The fact that they are OO, and not EO, doesn't matter much - they followed the model of autocephalous Churches.

B.2.1.)Although the See of Jerusalem were existing prior to Antioch, it was part of Patriarchate of Antioch until Ecumenical Council. The bishop of Jerusalem is succesor of St. Apostole James, while the bishop of Antioch is succesor of St. Apostole Peter. See of James was part of Patriarchate presided by the See of Peter. It's difficult to Roman Catholics to see the difference between Apostolic Succession of bishops and structure of organization of Church as autocephalous.

B.2.2.) Upon breach of communion, caused by theological dispute, between Armenians and the rest of us, Patriarch of Antioch granted autocephalia to the Church of Georgia upon their return into communion. Autocephalia wasn't granted by an Ecumenical Council, than by tomos. AFAIK, Christianity of Georgia was established by St. Nino, and they were part of Armenia where Christianity was established by St. Mesrop [sp?]. I wouldn't know about the borders of "jurisdictions" of that time, but, if there was overstepping of them, it was caused by the differences in faith - Armenians were not in communion and there was the need to organize those who were returning.

C) The rest of autocephalous Churches were all becoming such by receiving tomos from the Church of whom they were part before that - in most cases Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinopolis.

C.1.) Revocation of autocephalia for autocephalous Churches - Serbia twice, Bulgaria once, Georgia once - were always done by conquoring army and, at least in case of Serbia, by mere cessation of existence of bishops and lack of election of their successors.

C.2.) Transfer of borders of jurisdictions between two existing autocephalous Churches occurred several times - Orthodox in Austro-Hungarian Empire, but always in consent between the autocephalous Churches. If there was no consent, there was no transfer.

C.2.1.) There may be slightly different interpretation between EP and other Autocephalous Churches about the transfer of certain lands, but, I'm not sure H.H. Bartholomew of Constantinopolis will push to your interpretation - he is well aware about the possible consequences.

Russian Church, with her seat in Moscow, got autocephalia from Constantinopolis, from whom she received tomos. The fact that baptism of Ryss occured in Kiev 5 centuries before that was absolutely not related. That's why Ecumenical Patriarchate is Mother of Russian Patriarchate.

The issue of borders between them doesn't exist. There is the valid consent of EP to transfer what's Kiev now to Moscow. Subsequent decision about it is ineffective. BTW, simonia means purchase of status of a hierarch - a deacon, a priest, a bishop - and doesn't embrace transfer of territory. EP justified her recent acceptance of some Ukrainians by other reasons, and not by disputing the decision of her own council.

Re.: St. Gregory Palamas, he was a Bishop of Thessalonica, elected by EP, when Thessalonica was part of extended Serbian Patriarchate under Tzar Dusan, whom was under anathema of EP. Following your logic in case of St. Peter Mogila, not making distinction between the apostolic succession of bishops and organization of Church, he couldn't have been real bishop. There was no transfer of See of Kiev to Moscow, just as there was no transfer of See of Thessalonica to Pec.

That's why Moscow would necessarily be Mother of supposed Ukrainian Church if she ever decides to grant her autocephalia.

Finally, stop posing as Orthodox - you are obviously an RC, not having a clue about Orthodox ecclessiology. Your entire eclessiology is papocentric, so go claim autocephalia for yourself from Rome, because no Orthodox in Ukraine is requesting autocephalia, they are happy in UOC - MP, but "Ukrainian autocephalia" is the issue of high concern for all enemies of Orthodox.

We'll keep placing our hope in the Holy Spirit.

Edited to remove offensive epithets  -PtA
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« Reply #119 on: September 26, 2008, 04:15:59 AM »

I forgot:

In 1924 EP ceded jurisdiction over Carpato-Ryss to Serbian Patriarchate. Carpat-Ryss diocese was immediately granted autonomous status within Serbian Church. She was simply destroyed afterwards by Bolsheviks, while some of her clergy and flock emigrated to West.

Therefore, EP can have no claim over Carpato-Ryss diocese, while Carpato-Ryss brothers (Lemko, Ryssins, and others - forgive me if I failed to list some) give some glorious people to Orthodoxy - I believe we'll have some glorious Saints from them, proclaimed by ROCOR, once the time comes.
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« Reply #120 on: September 26, 2008, 08:21:30 AM »

Finally, stop posing as Orthodox - you are obviously an RC, not having a clue about Orthodox ecclessiology. Your entire eclessiology is papocentric, so go claim autocephalia for yourself from Rome, because no Orthodox in Ukraine is requesting autocephalia, they are happy in UOC - MP, but "Ukrainian autocephalia" is the issue of high concern for all enemies of Orthodox.

We'll keep placing our hope in the Holy Spirit.

Bravo Brate!!!! Excellent post, but this part made me stand up and give you a standing ovation.  100% right... wolf in sheeps clothing.

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« Reply #121 on: September 26, 2008, 10:59:09 AM »

That's probably because their language isn't ukrainianized, as the language of those remaining to live in those areas of Ukraine. They speak as their ancestors were speaking several generations ago, and that obviously isn't Ukrainian language.
"Obviously"? OBVIOUSLY? Listen, pal, don't you think that a couple of Ukrainians can spot Ukrainian better than you? FYI: even in the most Russophone areas in Ukraine, older people in rural areas do speak the language their ancestors spoke several generations ago. And you know what? That language is identical to the normative Ukrainian (Poltava dialect). So please drop your silly conspiracy theory, will you?
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« Reply #122 on: September 26, 2008, 11:11:43 AM »

because no Orthodox in Ukraine is requesting autocephalia, they are happy in UOC - MP, but "Ukrainian autocephalia" is the issue of high concern for all enemies of Orthodox.


Orthodoxlurker,  do you claim to speak for all Orthodox faithfull in Ukraine?  By what right?  Have you asked each and every one of them, their honest opinion?

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« Reply #123 on: September 26, 2008, 11:16:15 AM »

because no Orthodox in Ukraine is requesting autocephalia, they are happy in UOC - MP, but "Ukrainian autocephalia" is the issue of high concern for all enemies of Orthodox.


Orthodoxlurker,  do you claim to speak for all Orthodox faithfull in Ukraine?  By what right?  Have you asked each and every one of them, their honest opinion?



According to my priest, Fr Victor, who is in his mid-thirties and born and raised in Ukraine 85% of the Orthodox support the UOC-MP.

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« Reply #124 on: September 26, 2008, 11:26:41 AM »


^Again...how does HE know?  Has he polled each Orthodox individual?

That is such a broad statement. 

...and is he asking the Ukrainians who are Orthodox or the Russians who are Orthodox and just happen to be living in Ukraine?

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« Reply #125 on: September 26, 2008, 12:26:16 PM »


^Again...how does HE know?  Has he polled each Orthodox individual?

That is such a broad statement. 

...and is he asking the Ukrainians who are Orthodox or the Russians who are Orthodox and just happen to be living in Ukraine?



How do YOU know he is wrong?  Have YOU polled each individual?  I'm sure he has obtained those statistics from somewhere.  He just didn't make them up.

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« Reply #126 on: September 26, 2008, 12:48:08 PM »


^Again...how does HE know?  Has he polled each Orthodox individual?
...

I'd be much obliged to respond and explain, once I have it clarified by Stanislav if this:

...
"Obviously"? OBVIOUSLY? Listen, pal, don't you think that a couple of Ukrainians can spot Ukrainian better than you? ...

was his final say and argument with me re: "canonicity", "orthodoxy", "simonia" and "autocephalia".

Just be patient, Lisa. Meanwhile, what are your comments re Mother?
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« Reply #127 on: September 26, 2008, 12:59:53 PM »

...And you know what? That language is identical to the normative Ukrainian (Poltava dialect). So please drop your silly conspiracy theory, will you?

Is it Ukrainian or Poltava dialect?

I wouldn't know about dialects, but Heorhij here claimed those from left side of some river speak quite differently from these on the right side of the river. Not to mention easterners, whom speak much more like Russians (and the Russians themselves, not speaking Ukrinian). And, of course, not to forget Ryssins and Lemko, whom speak their own languages, and not Ukrainian.

Heorhij also said this and that Ukrainian politician doesn't know to speak Ukrainian, and even President Uschenko doesn't speak it well. So I'm yet to hear what exactly is Ukrainian language.

Err, I wouldn't know about dialects. You've got me there Grin Grin Grin How many of them there are in Ukraine?
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« Reply #128 on: September 26, 2008, 01:28:58 PM »

C.2.) Transfer of borders of jurisdictions between two existing autocephalous Churches occurred several times - Orthodox in Austro-Hungarian Empire, but always in consent between the autocephalous Churches. If there was no consent, there was no transfer.
Perhaps, but in wasn't necessarily a smooth transition. Witness Estonia and talks of South Ossetia and Abkhasia coming under the MP.

C.2.1.) There may be slightly different interpretation between EP and other Autocephalous Churches about the transfer of certain lands, but, I'm not sure H.H. Bartholomew of Constantinopolis will push to your interpretation - he is well aware about the possible consequences.
Well, yes, because it is politically imprudent. Pushing too hard will surely result in a huge fight with the MP, which is highly undesirable. (again, look what happened in Estonia - over a tiny little diocese). This does not change the facts though. And BTW, it does not really help personally Vladyko Filaret: his jurisdiction is uncanonical for other reasons, most of them stemming directly from his "leadership". He does not even use "tomos of 1924" in his apologia. Partly because this'll mean submitting to EP for at least a little while, and he's too used to be "Patriarch". Plus, EP might not want him as an active Bishop, both because MP won't like it and due to his ethics and charming personality. UAOC might do something in this direction (they seem to be more reasonable), but they have their own problems.

I hope that eventual solution will involve both Moscow and EP.

Russian Church, with her seat in Moscow, got autocephalia from Constantinopolis, from whom she received tomos. The fact that baptism of Ryss occured in Kiev 5 centuries before that was absolutely not related. That's why Ecumenical Patriarchate is Mother of Russian Patriarchate.
Let's start from the beginning: define "Mother".


The issue of borders between them doesn't exist. There is the valid consent of EP to transfer what's Kiev now to Moscow. Subsequent decision about it is ineffective. BTW, simonia means purchase of status of a hierarch - a deacon, a priest, a bishop - and doesn't embrace transfer of territory. EP justified her recent acceptance of some Ukrainians by other reasons, and not by disputing the decision of her own council.
Cute. So bribing a brother hierarch is OK then, as long as it's for territory not ordination?

Re.: St. Gregory Palamas, he was a Bishop of Thessalonica, elected by EP, when Thessalonica was part of extended Serbian Patriarchate under Tzar Dusan, whom was under anathema of EP. Following your logic in case of St. Peter Mogila, not making distinction between the apostolic succession of bishops and organization of Church, he couldn't have been real bishop. There was no transfer of See of Kiev to Moscow, just as there was no transfer of See of Thessalonica to Pec.
So the MP is not really a successor of the Kyiv Metropolia? Thank you! I keep hearing this argument all the time.


That's why Moscow would necessarily be Mother of supposed Ukrainian Church if she ever decides to grant her autocephalia.
Sorry, I'm not convinced. In fact, I don't think I follow your argument. Try to write shorter posts, and do not skip logical steps.

Finally, stop posing as Orthodox - you are obviously a Papist, not having a clue about Orthodox ecclessiology. Your entire eclessiology is papocentric, so go claim autocephalia for yourself from Rome, because no Orthodox in Ukraine is requesting autocephalia, they are happy in UOC - MP, but "Ukrainian autocephalia" is the issue of high concern for all enemies of Orthodox.
Yeah right.
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« Reply #129 on: September 26, 2008, 01:36:19 PM »

 Smiley

Well, you are asking a Ukrainian.  A Ukrainian with Ukrainian ancestry dating back ages.  My family has suffered for being Ukrainian patriots.  My grandfather was exiled to Siberia (Soloveyki) for being a Ukrainian, not a Russian.   My grandmother, left without a husband, had to work day and night to feed her family (all this during the famine of 1930's).  My mother as a child of 5 let it slip on the playground that her grandmother "talks" to God each night. That evening the KGB knocked down the door and shredded all their clothes and broke all their furniture looking for evidence of "God". [Everything was hidden in a false bottomed chest.]  I could go on and on about family history.

I myself, born and raised in the U.S. (and proud to be an American) love my roots.  Ukrainian was my first language.  Orthodoxy - I would parish without it.

I visited Ukraine for the first time some 12 years ago with my mother.  I can only tell you what I saw.  

I got the cold shoulder and was yelled at in Russian by some old ladies when I put flowers at the monument to Taras Shevchenko, a great Ukrainian poet/author/painter/patriot....
I'd never seen such open hostility....especially since I hadn't done anything wrong....  The little old ladies were yelling that he belonged to them...that he was Russian....Huh  He wrote about Ukraine, not Russia.

I couldn't even get a bottle of water at the hotel, when I asked for it in Ukrainian.  Only when I switched and asked in Russian did I actually get service.  

So, seeing the Russiphication first hand, killed me.   I was in Kharkiv (Eastern portion of the country that borders with Russia, and is inhabited by many Russians).   I'm speaking Ukrainian, in Ukraine, and getting nowhere, until I say it in Russian.

While I would die for Orthodoxy, I simply cannot fathom having to bow down to Moscow.  To go to Moscow for my faith, gives me goosebumps.

Why is Russia considered to be "Holy Mother Russia" and better then others?  

Many saints have haled from Ukraine, not just Russia.  RUS is Ukraine.  Russia came later.  Prince Volodymir was Ukrainia.  

I respect Russia for her faith, for preserving the ways, however, I cannot understand why Russia needs to lord it over Ukraine in all things?

I don't dislike Russia, however, I like Ukraine.

...and as a mere human, national pride gets in the way.

In the US I have gone to pray in many different Orthodox churches (during Lent each Sunday there is a vespers service in a different Orthodox church).  I have been to Russian churches, Greek, Antiochian, Romanian, Bulgarian, etc.  Why can't there be a Ukrainian church?  Just tell me one reason why NOT?

Given time....of course.  Let the national politics simmer down.  Stability will come.

Why not in the future?  Why is everyone so dead set against it?

Why would a Ukrainian church bring ruin to Orthodoxy?  WHy would you even say such a thing?

I am Ukrainian. I love God.  I would never do anything to bring down Orthodoxy...and it kills me to hear everyone so against Ukraine and her right to have a church of her own...when it's allowed in other nations.

If you are so deadset against a Ukrainian church, how come you allow Serbian, Romanian, etc?

Why shouldn't we all just bow down to Jerusalem?  After all, if you are looking for the "Mother" church....wouldn't that be Jerusalem?  Did not Christ found His church there?

You all bring me to tears with all this bickering and hatred.  

With all these "politics" you lose the true meaning of Orthodoxy - Love thy neighbor as yourself!

I wish nobody ill, I wish for equality.

Peace to all my brothers and sisters in Christ!

Long live Orthodoxy!  (no matter what language/nationality)

I love you all....and I am honored that you fight for what you think is right!


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« Reply #130 on: September 26, 2008, 01:45:31 PM »

Is it Ukrainian or Poltava dialect?
FYI: modern "normative" Ukrainian is based on Poltava dialect. You have made such a confident pronouncement on language, so I assumed you knew such an elementary fact.

I wouldn't know about dialects, but Heorhij here claimed those from left side of some river speak quite differently from these on the right side of the river. Not to mention easterners, whom speak much more like Russians (and the Russians themselves, not speaking Ukrinian). And, of course, not to forget Ryssins and Lemko, whom speak their own languages, and not Ukrainian.
...
Err, I wouldn't know about dialects. You've got me there Grin Grin Grin How many of them there are in Ukraine?
You didn't know languages have dialects? Did you really?

Heorhij also said this and that Ukrainian politician doesn't know to speak Ukrainian, and even President Uschenko doesn't speak it well. So I'm yet to hear what exactly is Ukrainian language.
You want a lecture? Please enroll in a university course at a school that has a decent Eastern Slavic program. Colloquially, a normative Ukrainian is the one you'd hear on the Ukrainian TV. The language of Shevchenko and Kotlyarevs'ky.  Sort of like any other language, you know?

BTW, Yuschenko speaks fine. He has a slight problem with normative use - he comes from a village right on the border with Russia. Still, his native dialect is recognizably Ukrainian. Politicians of national prominence are actually OK at speaking Ukrainian, aside of a few anomalies. It's interesting to see how quickly seasoned Russophones learn Ukrainian as soon as they're in Kyiv. "Pro-Russian" (actually, pro-big bucks semicriminal business) parliamentary Yankovitch is actually a good example. A new contender for national leadership, prime minister Yulia Tymoshenko speaks flawless Ukrainian (right down to regional phonetics native to the crowd she happens to address). She's a Russophone from Dnipropetrivs'k.
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« Reply #131 on: September 26, 2008, 02:23:32 PM »

Smiley


Comment:  While I would die for Orthodoxy, I simply cannot fathom having to bow down to Moscow.  To go to Moscow for my faith, gives me goosebumps.

Reply:  That's just the point.  You don't have to go to Moscow for your faith.  Didn't you read the articles contained in the Tomos of Automony?  The problem is you are so blinded by hatred and distrust you cannot comprehend what you are reading or fail to admit the meaning of the words.

Comment: Why is Russia considered to be "Holy Mother Russia" and better then others?

Reply:  What does that have to do with this whole discussion?  Russia was known as 'Holy Russia' because it had more churches than any other country on earth.  Moscow had more churches than any other city in the world. 

Comment:  Many saints have haled from Ukraine, not just Russia.  RUS is Ukraine.  Russia came later.  Prince Volodymir was Ukrainia. 

Reply:  No, Ukraine was part of Rus.  I'm not a history expert but didn't Rus consist of various principalities?  Wasn't Novgorod one of those principalities?  And wasn't Prince Vladimir prince of Novgorod before becoming prince of Kievan Rus?

Comment:  I don't dislike Russia, however, I like Ukraine.

Reply:  From your comments you could have fooled me!

Comment:  In the US I have gone to pray in many different Orthodox churches (during Lent each Sunday there is a vespers service in a different Orthodox church).  I have been to Russian churches, Greek, Antiochian, Romanian, Bulgarian, etc.  

Why can't there be a Ukrainian church?  Just tell me one reason why NOT?

Reply:  Can you show me where anyone said there could never a Ukrainian Chuch?  All that has been said is that now is not the right time!

Comment: Given time....of course.  Let the national politics simmer down.  Stability will come.

Why not in the future?  Why is everyone so dead set against it?

Reply:  Which is what we have been saying all along!

Comment:  Why would a Ukrainian church bring ruin to Orthodoxy?  WHy would you even say such a thing?

Reply;  Where has it indicated that everyone is dead set against an eventual autocephalous Ukrainian Orthodox Church?  All that has been stated that the time is not ripe.  Which you seem to agree with by some of your comments made above.

Comment:  With all these "politics" you lose the true meaning of Orthodoxy - Love thy neighbor as yourself!

Reply;  This is what we have been saying all along.  We seem to be just going around in circles here.

Peace to all my brothers and sisters in Christ!

Long live Orthodoxy!  (no matter what language/nationality)

I love you all....and I am honored that you fight for what you think is right!



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« Reply #132 on: September 26, 2008, 02:36:24 PM »

All this discussion about Ukraine reminds me of the test the Pharisees gave Jesus about the 7 childless brothers-in-law of a widowed woman (Matthew 22:23-33). 

28 Therefore, in the resurrection, whose wife of the seven will she be? For they all had her.

At the end, does it matter whom we belonged to in this life?  Do you even think about living life as Christians or as xenophobes? After all, organizations like KGB and CIA are insecure, paranoid, xenophobic, etc and our Holy Martyrs were neither insecure, paranoid nor xenophobic....
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« Reply #133 on: September 26, 2008, 02:43:31 PM »

All this discussion about Ukraine reminds me of the test the Pharisees gave Jesus about the 7 childless brothers-in-law of a widowed woman (Matthew 22:23-33). 

28 Therefore, in the resurrection, whose wife of the seven will she be? For they all had her.

At the end, does it matter whom we belonged to in this life?  Do you even think about living life as Christians or as xenophobes? After all, organizations like KGB and CIA are insecure, paranoid, xenophobic, etc and our Holy Martyrs were neither insecure, paranoid nor xenophobic....

AMEN!  We have gotten so far off the original purpose of his thread which was to try and justify the UOC-KP.  What we got in response are historical opinions that are questionable depending on who you talk to.  As I said before start a ukrainian history thread.

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« Reply #134 on: September 26, 2008, 02:53:30 PM »

AMEN!  We have gotten so far off the original purpose of his thread which was to try and justify the UOC-KP.  What we got in response are historical opinions that are questionable depending on who you talk to.  As I said before start a ukrainian history thread.

I suggest that the thread become a sticky because the polemics here have reached the same levels as OO/EO discussion, anything pertaining to homosexuality and other "hot" topics on the forum.   Cool 
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« Reply #135 on: September 26, 2008, 03:29:51 PM »



I apologize if my comments came across as angry.

It's just that I love the country of my ancestors and at some point (and I always agreed that today, is NOT the day for it) I would love for Ukraine to have its own church.

However, I don't disklike any other Orthodox church. 

I honestly wish we could all simply be ONE, with various languages used so people can pray in their own language.

Like I mentioned earlier, during Great Lent, the Orthodox in our metropolitan area publish a schedule and hold Sunday Vespers at a different church each week.  I got goosebumps seeing so many people get together to pray.  People from various jurisdictions and various countries.  "Our Father" was said mostly in English, however, you could hear the other languages being uttered as well.  There were people with different colored skin, and different shaped eyes.  It didn't matter.  We all hugged, we all trusted each other...because we were all there for one common cause.

There were dozens of priests, monks and nuns...and hundreds of laypeople.

It was amazing.  Truly!

It underscored that we are ONE...yet no ONE is better then the other.  All are equal.

That's all that's trying to get stressed here.  Equality.

Again, I apologize if my words distressed anyone.  That was not my intent.  I certainly am no scholar and I can't begin to provide quotes and notes like the rest of you.  I am amazed at your degree of knowledge in all these matters.

I am a simple person who simply wants to serve Christ...  (and would like people to respect Ukraine  Wink )

Please forgive me for offending anyone.

PS. 
Comment:  The problem is you are so blinded by hatred and distrust you cannot comprehend what you are reading or fail to admit the meaning of the words.

Reply: I am NOT blinded by hatred nor distrust.  If you knew me, you would realize that I "trust" to a fault... and I can honestly say I don't "hate" anyone....  I just love some, more then others.   Wink
...and I did NOT deserve that comment.   You ask for my opinion and then you shoot me down as some hater.   This is why it took me a long time to muster the courage to even write on this forum.  I think I should cease and desist....because it's not doing me any good...and God forbid I should hurt someone else with my comments.

May God protect us ALL, and keep us safe, as the devil tries to tear us apart.

Peace to all.

Please...no hard feelings.

Everyones invited for dinner!



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« Reply #136 on: September 26, 2008, 04:06:39 PM »

AMEN!  We have gotten so far off the original purpose of his thread which was to try and justify the UOC-KP.  What we got in response are historical opinions that are questionable depending on who you talk to.  As I said before start a ukrainian history thread.

I suggest that the thread become a sticky because the polemics here have reached the same levels as OO/EO discussion, anything pertaining to homosexuality and other "hot" topics on the forum.   Cool 

I'm not sure if that justifies making it a "sticky."  And yes, could everyone please try to stay on topic.  Thank you.  Pravoslavbob, Religious topics moderator.
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« Reply #137 on: September 26, 2008, 04:07:38 PM »

AMEN!  We have gotten so far off the original purpose of his thread which was to try and justify the UOC-KP.  What we got in response are historical opinions that are questionable depending on who you talk to.  As I said before start a ukrainian history thread.

I suggest that the thread become a sticky because the polemics here have reached the same levels as OO/EO discussion, anything pertaining to homosexuality and other "hot" topics on the forum.   Cool 
Nah!  Let's just wait until this thread reaches 1000 posts.  Then we'll think about making it a sticky. Wink
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« Reply #138 on: September 26, 2008, 04:41:57 PM »

Nah!  Let's just wait until this thread reaches 1000 posts.  Then we'll think about making it a sticky. Wink

Seems like every other post is Ukraine this and Ukraine that - maybe the total posts have soared over 1000?   Shocked
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« Reply #139 on: September 26, 2008, 05:40:55 PM »

Quote:"Reply: I am NOT blinded by hatred nor distrust.  If you knew me, you would realize that I "trust" to a fault... and I can honestly say I don't "hate" anyone....  I just love some, more then others.   
(1)...and I did NOT deserve that comment.   You ask for my opinion and then you shoot me down as some hater.    This is why it took me a long time to muster the courage to even write on this forum.  I think I should cease and desist....because it's not doing me any good...and God forbid I should hurt someone else with my comments.

May God protect us ALL, and keep us safe, as the devil tries to tear us apart.

Peace to all.

Please...no hard feelings.

(2)  Everyones invited for dinner!"

Replies:  (1)  You are right you did not deserve that comment. And I publically apologize. It's just that we are talking past each other because the topic is about the canonical status of a self proclaimed church and its leader.  I get frustrated because the anwers received have nothing to do with the canons or administrative functions of the church or creating a new autocephalous entity or schisms within the church. It has everything to do about  politics or ethnic rivalery.  Its like talking about apples and getting oranges as replies. 

Politics makes strange bed fellows and creates vices in every country.  Coming from a Carpatho-Rusyn (Lemko) background my people who live in Ukraine are having the same problems you complain about the Russians.  Seems they are being told the same things you accuse the Russians of.  The Ukrainians refuse to recognize them as a distinct people with their own separate language, culture, and identity. They are being told they are Ukrainian.  But this fact is not being used to justify non-canonical entities or schisms within the church.  Religion and politics should be separte and distinct issues.


(2)  Only if you promise to service home made pierogi's (Vareneki)!

Orthodoc
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« Reply #140 on: September 26, 2008, 06:07:37 PM »


You got it!
..with sour cream!
 Cheesy

Sorry for giving you oranges when you asked for apples.  It's been one of those days...  I've been irritated all day and took it out on you.

Glad there's no hard feelings. 

I'm serving potato varenyki with lots of onions and then more Varenyki with cherries and sweet cheese for dessert.
...and no leftovers, since tomorrow is a "Fasting" day (Exaltation of the Holy Cross - I never understood why you had to "fast" on a "feast" day!)

Smachnoho!





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« Reply #141 on: September 26, 2008, 06:11:09 PM »

Smiley


Comment:  While I would die for Orthodoxy, I simply cannot fathom having to bow down to Moscow.  To go to Moscow for my faith, gives me goosebumps.

Reply:  That's just the point.  You don't have to go to Moscow for your faith.  Didn't you read the articles contained in the Tomos of Automony?  The problem is you are so blinded by hatred and distrust you cannot comprehend what you are reading or fail to admit the meaning of the words.
Or, she could listen to what many bishops and priests (and laity) of that "Ukrainian" Church are actually saying. I do have a feeling that UOC is getting better, and certainly as a leader, Met. Vladimir looks much better than Filaret. Nevertheless, there is plenty of reasons to consider UOC-MP a "Moscow church"

Comment: Given time....of course.  Let the national politics simmer down.  Stability will come.

Why not in the future?  Why is everyone so dead set against it?

Reply:  Which is what we have been saying all along!

Comment:  Why would a Ukrainian church bring ruin to Orthodoxy?  WHy would you even say such a thing?

Reply;  Where has it indicated that everyone is dead set against an eventual autocephalous Ukrainian Orthodox Church?  All that has been stated that the time is not ripe.  Which you seem to agree with by some of your comments made above.
Well, that's sort of a default position. There are two problems with it: 1) Coming from Moscow, "later" does sound like "never" 2) Meanwhile, lots of people are without sacraments.
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« Reply #142 on: September 26, 2008, 06:12:37 PM »

since tomorrow is a "Fasting" day (Exaltation of the Holy Cross - I never understood why you had to "fast" on a "feast" day!)

Same reason one fasts on Good Friday for the Elevation of the Holy Cross also commemorates the Crucifixion of Christ.
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« Reply #143 on: September 26, 2008, 06:27:30 PM »

...ahh.  I never thought of it that way.
Thanks for the clarification.

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« Reply #144 on: September 26, 2008, 06:32:46 PM »

^ You're welcome.   Smiley
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« Reply #145 on: September 27, 2008, 01:38:22 AM »

...Perhaps, but in wasn't necessarily a smooth transition. ...

Who said it was?


Let's start from the beginning: define "Mother".

That would be easy, once you define: "beginning".


Cute. So bribing a brother hierarch is OK then, as long as it's for territory not ordination?

Huh?

You, yourself laid accusation for simonia, and called some IIRC (I have no clue who/what is/was IIRC). See:

...This is not a matter of opinion btw: IIRC said Patriarch was deposed the next year for simony, ant the transaction reversed by Synod. ...

Don't drag me into right/wrong, God gave you reason to do it for yourself. I just proved how ridiculous and pathetic such accusations are.


So the MP is not really a successor of the Kyiv Metropolia? Thank you! I keep hearing this argument all the time.

No, MP Alexey II is successor of bishops who appointed (hirotonied) him, all the way back to the Apostoles, and not of a See.

Apostolic succession of Kiev bishops died out during the first half of 17th century, when they all adhered to Unia, so Peter Sagaydachni had to organize uprizing and bring Patriarchs of Antioch and Jerusalem to conduct hirotonia of Orthodox bishops.

So Moscow does have much more claim to Kiev throught successorship of her bishops than any Ukrainian-lined bishop.

BTW, the fact that you didn't bother to respond to my suspicion that you aren't Orthodox than are in communion with the Pope of Rome speak volumes. See ya.
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« Reply #146 on: September 27, 2008, 01:42:11 AM »

...

While I would die for Orthodoxy, I simply cannot fathom having to bow down to Moscow.  To go to Moscow for my faith, gives me goosebumps.

Since when there is requirement in Orthodoxy to bow (not to mention bow down) to anyone on Earth?
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« Reply #147 on: September 27, 2008, 01:54:03 AM »


BTW, the fact that you didn't bother to respond to my suspicion that you aren't Orthodox than are in communion with the Pope of Rome speak volumes. See ya.
That's the thing that apparently eludes you: you don't have authority over anyone on this board. So one is free to respond or not to respond to your accusations. BTW, said accusations are, by definition, irrlelevant ad hominem attacks: I'm not the topic of this conversation. Here, have a freebie: while I respect the Pope and his jurisdiction, I am not in communion with him. I think that universal direct jurisdiction is a false teaching. Happy now?
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« Reply #148 on: September 27, 2008, 02:03:20 AM »




Cute. So bribing a brother hierarch is OK then, as long as it's for territory not ordination?

Huh?

You, yourself laid accusation for simonia, and called some IIRC (I have no clue who/what is/was IIRC). See:

...This is not a matter of opinion btw: IIRC said Patriarch was deposed the next year for simony, ant the transaction reversed by Synod. ...

The fact that you don't know what IIRC mean actually is to your credit: it means that you waste less time on the Internet that I do. "IIRC" is just a chatroom shorthand for "if I recall correctly". As to the "simony" thing: your nitpicking does not change anything. Whether it's technically correct to call any bribery in Church "simony" (I don't see why not), it is WRONG. You remind me of people that are OUTRAGED when the Holodomor is called "genocyde" since, you see, mass murdering people because of their occupation is much less morally repugnant then murdering them because of their nationality.
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« Reply #149 on: September 27, 2008, 02:04:46 AM »

...BTW, said accusations are, by definition, irrlelevant ad hominem attacks: ...

There was nothing ad hominem in my suspicious. See:


Who is supposed to be Mother of imagined Orthodox Church of Ukraine?

I don't think it's the matter of dogma, but in my opinion, it should be Constantinople.

Typical Roman Catholic view of ecclessiology....

It was addressed to your papocentric ecclessiology.

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« Reply #150 on: September 27, 2008, 02:08:23 AM »

You remind me of people that are OUTRAGED when the Holodomor is called "genocyde" since,

Don't change the subject. Holodomor is being debated right now on at least one separate thread. http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,17614.0.html

The subject of this thread is impossible claim that a bunch of ... something, called "Kiev Patriarchate" is able to produce anything canonical.
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« Reply #151 on: September 27, 2008, 02:21:41 AM »

...

No, MP Alexey II is successor of bishops who appointed (hirotonied) him, all the way back to the Apostoles, and not of a See.

Apostolic succession of Kiev bishops died out during the first half of 17th century, when they all adhered to Unia, so Peter Sagaydachni had to organize uprizing and bring Patriarchs of Antioch and Jerusalem to conduct hirotonia of Orthodox bishops.

So Moscow does have much more claim to Kiev throught successorship of her bishops than any Ukrainian-lined bishop.


...

I just wanted to emphasize what I wrote and nobody responded, and will not respond.
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« Reply #152 on: September 27, 2008, 03:50:31 AM »

...

No, MP Alexey II is successor of bishops who appointed (hirotonied) him, all the way back to the Apostoles, and not of a See.

Apostolic succession of Kiev bishops died out during the first half of 17th century, when they all adhered to Unia, so Peter Sagaydachni had to organize uprizing and bring Patriarchs of Antioch and Jerusalem to conduct hirotonia of Orthodox bishops.

So Moscow does have much more claim to Kiev throught successorship of her bishops than any Ukrainian-lined bishop.


...

I just wanted to emphasize what I wrote and nobody responded, and will not respond.
So jurisdictional authority over a diocese passes along the succession lines through ordination? I mean, are you seriously saying that?
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« Reply #153 on: September 28, 2008, 05:22:34 PM »

...
Edited to remove offensive epithets  -PtA

This edit is butchery of reasoned discussion.

There was no more proper term - Roman Catholic was not what I meant, for not only not all Catholics are Roman - there are Eastern and Oriantal ones - but also there are some other grups who are not in communion with the Roman Pope whom hold such ecclessiology.

And I didn't intend to be offensive, or derrogatory. If I wanted I would know how to do it in another fashion.


:mad :mad :mad
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« Reply #154 on: September 29, 2008, 05:46:59 AM »

...
Edited to remove offensive epithets  -PtA

This edit is butchery of reasoned discussion.

There was no more proper term - Roman Catholic was not what I meant, for not only not all Catholics are Roman - there are Eastern and Oriantal ones - but also there are some other grups who are not in communion with the Roman Pope whom hold such ecclessiology.

And I didn't intend to be offensive, or derrogatory. If I wanted I would know how to do it in another fashion.

Since when has referring to Roman Catholics as "Papists" been considered a part of "reasoned discussion"?
Perhaps you didn't intend to be offensive or derogatory, but the term "Papist" is both offensive and derogatory.
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« Reply #155 on: October 27, 2008, 11:35:42 PM »

I don't understand these small nationalist churches that break communion just to be independent from a patriarch. It's all about politics, nothing to do with theology. I do agree that Ukraine should have it's own patriarch, since they are a separate country from Russia, but why break communion out of something like this?
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« Reply #156 on: October 28, 2008, 09:37:21 AM »

I don't understand these small nationalist churches that break communion just to be independent from a patriarch. It's all about politics, nothing to do with theology. I do agree that Ukraine should have it's own patriarch, since they are a separate country from Russia, but why break communion out of something like this?

They did not intend to break communion, they were forced into breaking because nobody wants to mess with the MP. The Russian Orthodox Church, BTW, had the same history - they were regarded as un-canonical for something like 160 years. When they grew powerful, they became canonical. It is as simple as that. It really is ALL about politics.
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« Reply #157 on: October 28, 2008, 04:23:31 PM »

Yes, that's how the Church of Greece began too. So are saying that will probably be the case for Ukraine?
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« Reply #158 on: October 28, 2008, 04:26:42 PM »

Yes, that's how the Church of Greece began too. So are saying that will probably be the case for Ukraine?

Yes. I am positive. There will be one canonical autocephalous Ukrainian Orthodox Church, with the throne of Her Prelate being in Kyiv.
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« Reply #159 on: October 28, 2008, 04:35:41 PM »


Дай Боже!

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« Reply #160 on: May 23, 2009, 02:06:30 PM »

...
So, the relationship with the Russian Orthodox Church is clearly given a special place.

I'm appalled you don't differ autonomy from autocephalia.

Of course the relationship with MP are "special", autonomy is part of her Mother. She isn't autocephalous.

That's what actually bothers many Ukrainian Orthodox. Why is Moscow "mother?"

Yes, that is the irony of the Ukraine-Russia issue.  On the one hand, the Church services etc. refer to Kiev as "Mother of Russia/Russian cities", but Russia is refered to as "Mother Church."

A full answer would be political, but just in brief, the origin in the irony is that St. Jonah, the first autocephalous head of the Russian Church was actually the Metropolitan of Kiev (he replaced the apostate Greek Isodore of Kiev, later Cardinal Isodore.  He later switched to the Latin rite and became Latin EP and Archbishop of Cyprus as well), as was St. Job, the last Metropolitan of Kiev and All Rus and the first Patriarch of Moscow and All Rus.  Constantinople, then under the Vatican, organized a successor to Met. Isodore, Gregory the Bulgarian, and that line got involved with the "Union" forced by the Polish crown.  At the time that St. Job was elevated, Kiev was detached from, later reunited to, Moscow (at the time of the elevatio it wasn't within the Kingdom of Russia, but the Kingdom of Poland within the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.  Not a minor detail: the Tomos that the EP and his synod gave to Poland, a part of the Patriarchate of Moscow, states in pertinent part:
Quote
bowing before the demands of canonical obligations, which impose upon our Holy Ecumenical See concern for Orthodox Churches, who are in need; considering also the fact, which is not contradicted by history (for it is recorded that the first separation from our See of the Kyivan Metropolia and the Orthodox Metropolia of Lithuania and Poland, dependent upon it, as well as their incorporation within the Holy Moscovite Church was accomplished contrary to canon law, as also all that which was agreed upon regarding the full church autonomy of the Kyivan Metropolitan, who at the time had the title Exarch of the Ecumenical See), We and our Holy Metropolitans, Our beloved brothers and co-workers in the Holy Spirit, considered it our obligation to give ear to the request presented to Us by the Holy Orthodox Church in Poland and to give Our blessing and approval to its autocephalous and independent administration
which Ukrainians who have taken autocephaly use as a basis for canonical cover for what they have done.
http://www.ukrainianorthodoxchurchinexile.org/1924_tomos_of_autocephaly.html

which has other repecusions: if Cyprus next month puts its stamp of approval on the EP's take on canon 28 and the canonical situation of North America, a pertinent part being the claim that North America doesn't fall within the boundaries of the Patriarchate of Moscow when it was created, the problem would arise that neither was Ukraine included within those boundaries, and would thus be technically "diaspora."  With the EP's interpretation of canon 28, he would be free make a deal with the Ukrainian government of Yushchenko, as was done in Poland (the 1924 EP tomos refers to "the God-Protected Polish State"), and to do as was done in North America, including using the secular courts in the attempt to take over Churches that don't agree.  That he is discussing with the Ukrainian President, and NOT with the canonical (even according to the EP) Ukrainian Primate, over opening a metochion, an ECCLESIASTICAL institution that requires the cession of territory by the canonical primate not the secular authorities, on the eve of the Cyprus meeting should give the Patriarch of Mosocw all the warning he needs (as if he needed any) that the agenda does not only involve the OCA.

And if the question is raised, "What does this have to do with the OP 'The Canonical Declaration of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (Kyiv Patriarchate)'," the document linked in the OP explicitely refers to the official acts of the EP (e.g. the Tomos to Poland above), explicitely refers to the words of the present EP Bartholomew (e.g. the reprimand of Met. Volodymyr of Kiev-MP, ironicly in an affirmation of Moscow's jurisdiction, an the claims of the jursidcition of the EP over "unity"), explicitely refers to the preparations for the All Orthodox Council by the All Orthodox Assembly (meeting next month in Cyprus), explicitely refers to certain acts signed by the Ukrainians explicitely in the presence of the EP having him (i.e. not Pat. Kyrill) for the ordering of the Ukraine's Church, etc., as the canonical basis of its autocephaly).

In other words, the primate of Kiev, which is in Ukraine, was made Patriarch of the Kingdom of Russia.  To this day, the Patriarch of Moscow is enthroned by the Met. of Kiev giving him the staff of St. Peter, who moved the see of Kiev to Moscow (sort of like how the Patriarch of Antioch is now in Damascus).  Met. Volodymyr said while handing it over
Quote
'Your Holiness! On behalf of the Local Council, which elected you, I solemnly hand you the staff of the Primates of Moscow on this joyous day when our Church got the sixteenth Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia.


'This staff belonged to Metropolitan Peter of Kiev and Moscow, the miracle-worker, who transferred the primatial see to Moscow. We hope that you will continue the ministry of the holy Primates of Moscow who worked tirelessly to build and order the Church of Christ, who consolidated the unity of Holy Russia, which by God's Providence has begun its life in the holy baptismal font of Kiev. We promise to help Your Holiness in this sacred cause
...
http://www.mospat.ru/index.php?page=44058
with pictures of the handing off.


The situation, btw, is not dissimilar from how Old Rome felt about New Rome.


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« Reply #161 on: May 23, 2009, 02:27:42 PM »


It is very strange, for a hierarch fleunt in both languages, to refuse to address a priest in Ukrainian, in a Kyivan Cathedral. Not only did he refuse to speak Ukrainian, he told the priest to speak only Russian. And yet shortly thereafter he refused to resign from the episcopacy and created a schism in the Church of God. How pleasant.

Was the visiting priest, by any chance, a Canadian Ukrainian? I am asking because we, "Ukrainian Ukrainians," sometimes have trouble understanding the Ukrainian language of those who have lived in North America in several generations, especially if those people's ancestors are from Halychyna (the extreme West and Southwest of Ukraine).

If it was the dialect of Ukrainian, how would Russian be better?

Not that I believe that this was the problem, but if he spoke Russian, it would no doubt be standard Russian which the Met. of course also spoke.  Yes, a dialect of Russian would be no better. I don't know, but maybe Heorhij or yourself can comment further on speaking surzhyk
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surzhyk
and comprehensibility.
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