Author Topic: Baptism as part of the Divine Liturgy  (Read 2891 times)

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Offline Mattheos

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Baptism as part of the Divine Liturgy
« on: September 18, 2008, 01:36:45 AM »
Hi all,

I was wondering if anyone has ever experienced a baptism as part of the Liturgy as it used to happen in the Early Church.

Further more, has anyone seen any typicon or material to instruct what takes place and when to merge the baptism with the Liturgy?

Thanks,
Mattheos
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Offline prodromas

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Re: Baptism as part of the Divine Liturgy
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2008, 01:54:14 AM »
Sorry I can't answer your question brother just if you wanted to know that services like a funeral or wedding can also be done in the same manner.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Baptism as part of the Divine Liturgy
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2008, 07:26:59 AM »
Hi all,

I was wondering if anyone has ever experienced a baptism as part of the Liturgy as it used to happen in the Early Church.

Further more, has anyone seen any typicon or material to instruct what takes place and when to merge the baptism with the Liturgy?

Thanks,
Mattheos
When I was just chrismated I was at one that was a baptism, a funeral and a DL.  I've also been to a DL wedding.  There doesn't seem to be any typicon on it.
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Offline scamandrius

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Re: Baptism as part of the Divine Liturgy
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2008, 08:49:26 AM »
The only baptism I've seen that was connected with the Divine Liturgy is that of Great and Holy Saturday.

Baptism and chrismation have their own rites and are distinct from the Liturgy even though the infant (or adult) also receives the life-giving mysteries of Christ's body and blood.  never have I seen a baptism where others partook of the mysteries, it was only the infant.
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Offline Anastasios

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Re: Baptism as part of the Divine Liturgy
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2008, 09:46:16 AM »
When I was Eastern Rite Catholic, my priest used to do them. Looking back, it was a nice sentiment, but didn't fit well and wasn't part of people's received experience. Hence, I would not do one.
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Offline SolEX01

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Re: Baptism as part of the Divine Liturgy
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2008, 10:50:19 AM »
I saw an entire family of 4 people received into Orthodoxy (Antiochian) via Baptism and/or Chrismation during Holy Saturday Morning Liturgy - quite moving I have to admit.

Offline Anastasios

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Re: Baptism as part of the Divine Liturgy
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2008, 11:20:39 AM »
I saw an entire family of 4 people received into Orthodoxy (Antiochian) via Baptism and/or Chrismation during Holy Saturday Morning Liturgy - quite moving I have to admit.

There is a much better argument for doing that than chopping up and splicing a baptism into a DL...were the baptisms done during the readings?
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Offline SolEX01

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Re: Baptism as part of the Divine Liturgy
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2008, 11:27:37 AM »
There is a much better argument for doing that than chopping up and splicing a baptism into a DL...were the baptisms done during the readings?

The Baptisms were done after the Small Entrance and before the Epistle and Gospel readings for Holy Saturday Morning.

Offline ytterbiumanalyst

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Re: Baptism as part of the Divine Liturgy
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2008, 11:31:34 AM »
My parish typically performs the baptism on Saturday night in place of Great Vespers and the chrismation on Sunday morning, before the Liturgy begins.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2008, 11:31:45 AM by ytterbiumanalyst »
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Re: Baptism as part of the Divine Liturgy
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2008, 11:57:26 AM »
There is a much better argument for doing that than chopping up and splicing a baptism into a DL...were the baptisms done during the readings?

The Baptisms were done after the Small Entrance and before the Epistle and Gospel readings for Holy Saturday Morning.

Interesting. I believe the original purpose of having 12 readings was that they would so as many as were needed for the number of baptisms being performed. But I could be wrong about that.
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Offline SolEX01

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Re: Baptism as part of the Divine Liturgy
« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2008, 12:05:24 PM »
Interesting. I believe the original purpose of having 12 readings was that they would so as many as were needed for the number of baptisms being performed. But I could be wrong about that.

Father A., you are right given that I knew you're referring to the 12 readings from the Old Testament which have been "reduced" to 1-3 in many places (including the day I observed the Baptism of the aforementioned family).   ;)

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Baptism as part of the Divine Liturgy
« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2008, 12:08:07 PM »
My parish typically performs the baptism on Saturday night in place of Great Vespers and the chrismation on Sunday morning, before the Liturgy begins.

The chrismations of adults at my Church take place after the DL and before the homily.  If babies are receiving 40 Day Blessings, chrismations occur after the Blessings take place.

Baptisms are scheduled at the appropriate times and do not replace any Liturgical commemoration on the Calendar.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2008, 03:15:44 PM by SolEX01 »

Offline Elisha

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Re: Baptism as part of the Divine Liturgy
« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2008, 01:43:26 PM »
There is a much better argument for doing that than chopping up and splicing a baptism into a DL...were the baptisms done during the readings?

The Baptisms were done after the Small Entrance and before the Epistle and Gospel readings for Holy Saturday Morning.

My parish (OCA) has been doing this the past few years for our adult baptisms.  During the last reading (from Daniel) at the end (during the "Praise ye the Lord and Supremely exalt Him unto the ages." refrain), we process outside and then do the baptisms.  I think one of the priests goes outside and blesses the water during earlier readings (yes, we always do all 15 - thanks PtA).
« Last Edit: September 18, 2008, 07:22:28 PM by Elisha »

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Re: Baptism as part of the Divine Liturgy
« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2008, 02:14:50 PM »
At my parish (OCA), the baptismal service of Holy Saturday is scheduled as a separate service immediately preceding the Vesperal Liturgy, so no activities going on in competition with the OT lessons.  For the record, there are actually 15 OT readings (12 is the number for Theophany), and we read them all.  Chrismations are performed immediately after the Litany of the Catechumens and right before the Great Entrance begins the Liturgy of the Eucharist.  And for Communion, the newly baptized/chrismated and their sponsors are instructed to cut to the front of the line (right behind the altar servers).
« Last Edit: September 18, 2008, 02:16:53 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline SolEX01

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Re: Baptism as part of the Divine Liturgy
« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2008, 03:00:01 PM »
^ I keep forgetting there are 15 OT readings on Holy Saturday.

I never heard 12 OT readings for Theophany before today.

Offline Quinault

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Re: Baptism as part of the Divine Liturgy
« Reply #15 on: September 18, 2008, 03:06:22 PM »
My family and I were baptized/chrismated during the Divine Liturgy on Lazarus Saturday. It was a looonnngggg service, at least 5 hours. I am in awe that my now 16 month old was fairly good for the entire time. Now he isn't still longer than a couple minutes.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2008, 03:08:00 PM by Quinault »

Offline scamandrius

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Re: Baptism as part of the Divine Liturgy
« Reply #16 on: September 18, 2008, 03:09:55 PM »
I never heard 12 OT readings for Theophany before today.

But as for the Nativity of the Lord or for Holy Saturday, the readings for Theophany are usually reduced to 3.  It's unfortunate in my opinion, but a lot of Orthodox have caved to those who think the Liturgy is too long as it is. 

On a side note, one person in my congregation who constantly complains about the length of the Liturgy asked why that was the case to Bishop BASIL on a visit. His Grace's response was great:  "You've got some other place to be?"  ;D
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Offline Mattheos

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Re: Baptism as part of the Divine Liturgy
« Reply #17 on: September 18, 2008, 06:57:16 PM »
I never heard 12 OT readings for Theophany before today.

On a side note, one person in my congregation who constantly complains about the length of the Liturgy asked why that was the case to Bishop BASIL on a visit. His Grace's response was great:  "You've got some other place to be?"  ;D

A former parish prist of mine used to say (when people would complain about the services being too long): If you can't stand for three hours how are you going to last an eternity in heaven?  :D
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Offline Mattheos

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Re: Baptism as part of the Divine Liturgy
« Reply #18 on: September 18, 2008, 07:03:41 PM »
Thank you for your comments so far.

So, aside from the baptisms in the divine liturgy on Great Saturday, would the epistle and gospel readings of the baptism replace the prescribed readings of the day? Also, would the apolyticion of Epiphany be chanted at the end of Matins and at the time of the small entrance of the Divine Liturgy?

Also, I read earlier someone saying that only the neophyte (newly baptised) would commune at the time of Holy Communion. Liturgy is "public" for all and not exclusive so I'm interest to hear what poeple to have to say about this matter.
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Re: Baptism as part of the Divine Liturgy
« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2008, 07:10:54 PM »
Thank you for your comments so far.

So, aside from the baptisms in the divine liturgy on Great Saturday, would the epistle and gospel readings of the baptism replace the prescribed readings of the day? Also, would the apolyticion of Epiphany be chanted at the end of Matins and at the time of the small entrance of the Divine Liturgy?

First part of question - the readings for Baptism are separate from any readings on the Lectionary that day for the Divine Liturgy.
Second part of question - No.

Also, I read earlier someone saying that only the neophyte (newly baptised) would commune at the time of Holy Communion. Liturgy is "public" for all and not exclusive so I'm interest to hear what poeple to have to say about this matter.

In USA, infants are baptized, christened and given Holy Communion.
In Greece, infants are only baptized or chrismated.  Priests there have discretion as to giving Holy Communion to infants.

A newly baptized adult usually receives Holy Communion with everyone else although a newly baptized adult can choose not to commune.  Some Jurisdictions have traditions about a neophyte receiving Communion 3 weeks in a row.

I can't speak for other places/Jurisdictions.

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Re: Baptism as part of the Divine Liturgy
« Reply #20 on: September 18, 2008, 09:50:10 PM »
Hi all,

I was wondering if anyone has ever experienced a baptism as part of the Liturgy as it used to happen in the Early Church.

Further more, has anyone seen any typicon or material to instruct what takes place and when to merge the baptism with the Liturgy?

Thanks,
Mattheos

I asked my husband and he has the rubrics to do a baptism in the Divine Liturgy properly.  If you would like a copy, feel free to PM me and I'll get them to you!

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Re: Baptism as part of the Divine Liturgy
« Reply #21 on: September 19, 2008, 04:53:42 PM »
Hi all,

I was wondering if anyone has ever experienced a baptism as part of the Liturgy as it used to happen in the Early Church.

Further more, has anyone seen any typicon or material to instruct what takes place and when to merge the baptism with the Liturgy?

Thanks,
Mattheos

I would suggest reading 'Of Water and the Spirit' by Father Schemmann.  This may help give you the more in-depth answers to your question.