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Author Topic: Orthodox and Anglican sacrements  (Read 7874 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: September 18, 2008, 01:28:14 AM »

I have read that in the past some Orthodox Bishops advised their flocks who were not in a place where there was an Orthodox Parish to attend an Anglican Church. (No doubt in part of the Anglo-Catholic movement). Is this still the case. My gut tells me no as the Anglican Church at least in the states seems to have slipped so far from historical Christianity it would be hard to call them Christian anymore. Which is sad because I love much of Anglican history.
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« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2008, 01:33:28 AM »

I have read that in the past some Orthodox Bishops advised their flocks who were not in a place where there was an Orthodox Parish to attend an Anglican Church. (No doubt in part of the Anglo-Catholic movement). Is this still the case. My gut tells me no as the Anglican Church at least in the states seems to have slipped so far from historical Christianity it would be hard to call them Christian anymore. Which is sad because I love much of Anglican history.

There is the concept of ekonomia in the church were in certain circumstances the cannon of the church will be bypassed due to an unusual situation. I have heard of this but it is not a blanket rule for all Orthodox it must first be consulted with your priest and bishop and must be an extremely unusual circumstance.
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« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2008, 01:38:27 AM »

In the early 1900s, St. Raphael, Bishop of Brooklyn was working to reconcile the Orthodox and Anglican communions here in the states and recognized the long standing practice of Orthodox ARabs who had no parish to receive the mysteries at the local episcopal church.  However, after doing much more research into how this was going to be an impossibility considering the many controversial doctrines the Anglicans held onto.  To read more about it--read this:  http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/hawaweeny.aspx
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« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2008, 01:41:58 AM »

Hmm Interesting. In the early days were the Priests Bishops more willing to in extreme circumstances let them go to an Anglican Parish before an RC one?
« Last Edit: September 18, 2008, 01:43:00 AM by Vlad » Logged
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« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2008, 08:59:52 AM »

As I understand it, the High Church movement also known as the Oxford Movement in the Anglican Church had a real desire to return the Anglican Church to the practices of the early Church and had looked at one time to the Spiritual Fathers of the Church before the schism for inspiration and direction. As a result they had very warm feelings for the Orthodox Church, indeed this continues to our time in which many Episcopalian catechists will openly state that the Church of England is the Orthodox Church for England like the Greek Orthodox Church is the Orthodox Church for Greece. Initially viewing some of the Oxford Movement's writings to include their recognition of the Pope only as the patriarch of Rome and not the primacy of the Roman Church over all Christians, many Orthodox priests hoped for a reunion of the Anglican  Communion with the Eastern Orthodox Church. Upon meeting these member of the Oxford Movement initially, St Raphael of Brooklyn, began to think that they were on the way to Orthodoxy.

As in the article cited by scamandrius clearly notes St Raphael upon discussing beliefs with Episcopalian bishops in the United States realized that their doctrine was not Orthodox and realized they were still too far from Orthodox beliefs to enter into any formal communion with them and advised his flock to not seek the sacramentals in the Episcopalian Church.  I believe that the  Synod in Russia came to a similar decision upon looking into the Oxford Movement in the Church of England around the same time.

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edited for clarity and spelling
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« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2008, 12:19:16 AM »

Ah yes I read Scamandrius's post and the letter that was written by St. Raphael was from 1927 that's way before Anglicans had women dress up and play Priest and Bishop so I can only Imagine what he would write nowadays. Wink
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« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2008, 12:45:24 AM »

Ah yes I read Scamandrius's post and the letter that was written by St. Raphael was from 1927 that's way before Anglicans had women dress up and play Priest and Bishop so I can only Imagine what he would write nowadays. Wink

Brother this is ludicrous. Okay you do realise how disrespectful this is? How would you feel if people said that the Orthodox church is just people dressing up playing priests?
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« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2008, 12:56:46 AM »

Well it wasn't meant to be disrespectful just a fact. I think women pretending to have Holy Orders and celebrating an invalid sacrament is rather disrespectful to Christ. Do you defend the Anglican orders of women Priests?
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« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2008, 01:00:08 AM »

Ah yes I read Scamandrius's post and the letter that was written by St. Raphael was from 1927 that's way before Anglicans had women dress up and play Priest and Bishop so I can only Imagine what he would write nowadays. Wink

Brother this is ludicrous. Okay you do realise how disrespectful this is? How would you feel if people said that the Orthodox church is just people dressing up playing priests?

Yes, mustn't 'disrespect' the Anglican priestess' now must we... calling a spade a spade is the highest of insults afterall.
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« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2008, 01:02:54 AM »

Well it wasn't meant to be disrespectful just a fact. I think women pretending to have Holy Orders and celebrating an invalid sacrament is rather disrespectful to Christ. Do you defend the Anglican orders of women Priests?

Ah yes I read Scamandrius's post and the letter that was written by St. Raphael was from 1927 that's way before Anglicans had women dress up and play Priest and Bishop so I can only Imagine what he would write nowadays. Wink

Brother this is ludicrous. Okay you do realise how disrespectful this is? How would you feel if people said that the Orthodox church is just people dressing up playing priests?

Yes, mustn't 'disrespect' the Anglican priestess' now must we... calling a spade a spade is the highest of insults afterall.

I'm not defending the female clergy I'm just defending being respectful. Calling the clerics of someones religious beliefs "dressing up" implies we are higher and above them when we are not. We are all equal in Christ.
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« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2008, 01:05:46 AM »

Ah yes I read Scamandrius's post and the letter that was written by St. Raphael was from 1927 that's way before Anglicans had women dress up and play Priest and Bishop so I can only Imagine what he would write nowadays. Wink

Brother this is ludicrous. Okay you do realise how disrespectful this is? How would you feel if people said that the Orthodox church is just people dressing up playing priests?
Well THAT is ludicrous. The OC and RC goes back to the beginning and never have there been women Priests. Just because Anglicans think it is neat to follow the ZeitGeist and cow-tow to femnazism and allow women as Priests although it goes against all tradition and the Gospel. And to feel bad when someone proclaims this truth well that is ludicrous.
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« Reply #11 on: September 24, 2008, 01:07:03 AM »

Well it wasn't meant to be disrespectful just a fact. I think women pretending to have Holy Orders and celebrating an invalid sacrament is rather disrespectful to Christ. Do you defend the Anglican orders of women Priests?

Ah yes I read Scamandrius's post and the letter that was written by St. Raphael was from 1927 that's way before Anglicans had women dress up and play Priest and Bishop so I can only Imagine what he would write nowadays. Wink

Brother this is ludicrous. Okay you do realise how disrespectful this is? How would you feel if people said that the Orthodox church is just people dressing up playing priests?

Yes, mustn't 'disrespect' the Anglican priestess' now must we... calling a spade a spade is the highest of insults afterall.

I'm not defending the female clergy I'm just defending being respectful. Calling the clerics of someones religious beliefs "dressing up" implies we are higher and above them when we are not. We are all equal in Christ.
Well if they aren't dressing up and pretending what are they doing?
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« Reply #12 on: September 24, 2008, 01:08:09 AM »

I always wonder what Henry VIII would say if he knew about female clergy in the Church he created.  His beheaded ex-wives would become saints.   Cheesy
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« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2008, 01:11:57 AM »

Ah yes I read Scamandrius's post and the letter that was written by St. Raphael was from 1927 that's way before Anglicans had women dress up and play Priest and Bishop so I can only Imagine what he would write nowadays. Wink

Brother this is ludicrous. Okay you do realise how disrespectful this is? How would you feel if people said that the Orthodox church is just people dressing up playing priests?
Well THAT is ludicrous. The OC and RC goes back to the beginning and never have there been women Priests. Just because Anglicans think it is neat to follow the ZeitGeist and cow-tow to femnazism and allow women as Priests although it goes against all tradition and the Gospel. And to feel bad when someone proclaims this truth well that is ludicrous.

Where is it in the Gospel?
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« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2008, 01:35:53 AM »

Well it wasn't meant to be disrespectful just a fact. I think women pretending to have Holy Orders and celebrating an invalid sacrament is rather disrespectful to Christ. Do you defend the Anglican orders of women Priests?

Ah yes I read Scamandrius's post and the letter that was written by St. Raphael was from 1927 that's way before Anglicans had women dress up and play Priest and Bishop so I can only Imagine what he would write nowadays. Wink

Brother this is ludicrous. Okay you do realise how disrespectful this is? How would you feel if people said that the Orthodox church is just people dressing up playing priests?

Yes, mustn't 'disrespect' the Anglican priestess' now must we... calling a spade a spade is the highest of insults afterall.

I'm not defending the female clergy I'm just defending being respectful. Calling the clerics of someones religious beliefs "dressing up" implies we are higher and above them when we are not. We are all equal in Christ.
Well if they aren't dressing up and pretending what are they doing?

I was a practicing Episcopalian for most of my life. Whatever errors the Episcopal Church might have,including the ordination of women, I can assure that the femlae priests and deacons I knew took thier ministry very seriously. I suffered a heart attack on Palm Sunday of 2000, and my priest was there within an hour. It has always been my practice to call clergy of other religious groups by thier correct title, i.e. "rabbi" "bishop" "pastor". I'm not sure what good is accomplished by deliberately being rude, other then making the poster feel a little superior.
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« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2008, 01:50:35 AM »

Well it wasn't meant to be disrespectful just a fact. I think women pretending to have Holy Orders and celebrating an invalid sacrament is rather disrespectful to Christ. Do you defend the Anglican orders of women Priests?

Ah yes I read Scamandrius's post and the letter that was written by St. Raphael was from 1927 that's way before Anglicans had women dress up and play Priest and Bishop so I can only Imagine what he would write nowadays. Wink

Brother this is ludicrous. Okay you do realise how disrespectful this is? How would you feel if people said that the Orthodox church is just people dressing up playing priests?

Yes, mustn't 'disrespect' the Anglican priestess' now must we... calling a spade a spade is the highest of insults afterall.

I'm not defending the female clergy I'm just defending being respectful. Calling the clerics of someones religious beliefs "dressing up" implies we are higher and above them when we are not. We are all equal in Christ.
Well if they aren't dressing up and pretending what are they doing?

I was a practicing Episcopalian for most of my life. Whatever errors the Episcopal Church might have,including the ordination of women, I can assure that the femlae priests and deacons I knew took thier ministry very seriously. I suffered a heart attack on Palm Sunday of 2000, and my priest was there within an hour. It has always been my practice to call clergy of other religious groups by thier correct title, i.e. "rabbi" "bishop" "pastor". I'm not sure what good is accomplished by deliberately being rude, other then making the poster feel a little superior.

These Anglican priestess' can call themselves whatever they feel like I suppose - still does not change the fact that they are neither priests nor bishops... which, I believe, is what Vlad was alluding too in his post.
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« Reply #16 on: September 24, 2008, 11:31:23 AM »

Well it wasn't meant to be disrespectful just a fact. I think women pretending to have Holy Orders and celebrating an invalid sacrament is rather disrespectful to Christ. Do you defend the Anglican orders of women Priests?
Why single out women? Are not all who are not in communion with the Orthodox Church of Jesus Christ holding invalid orders? Are men who are Anglican priests also pretending? Are Lutheran priests and Pentecostal pastors pretending too? Is the Pope?

We should have more respect than this for those of another religion, especially a Christian religion. They are not of us, and they do not follow our rules. We should not expect them to.

And let us also let Christ decide what is respectful and what is disrespectful. It is He Who is being worshiped, not us.
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« Reply #17 on: September 24, 2008, 02:12:30 PM »

It's depressing how the subject of ordained women seems to loosen up the inhibitions. Vlad, from the way you talk one might even think the feminists have a point.

And I don't see how anyone's mistaken belief in their own orders is disrespectful to anyone except some other hierarchy which rejects those orders. Priests in the Episcopal Church solemnly have faith in the orders of their church, male or female; within the bounds of their own frailty, it is out of respect that they exercise their office.

Anyway, back to the main subject: The dialogue (or what have you) with SS. Raphael and Tikhon took place in the context of a great deal of turmoil and change. It was easy enough to believe in those days that Anglican theology could be brought over to Orthodoxy. I also suspect that the Russians felt that Anglican parishes were far less likely to push the sojourning Orthodox to abandon their Orthodoxy that Catholic parishes. In the latter, I think they were correct. But matters were cut off by several factors:

  • The Anglo-Catholic party was over-representing their importance. They had a huge influence, but they were always destined to be a minority party.
  • The commitment of the AC party to remaining Anglican was much stronger than outsiders have ever wanted to believe. Therefore there have been defections, but not much in the way of schisms.
  • Anglicanism as a whole maintained its characteristic theological praxis, and therefore could not be relied upon to adopt (or even stick with) Orthodox views. This led to a characteristic asymmetry in the exchange. The Anglicans were willing to listen to Orthodox positions, but assessed them critically, and wanted to push back on troublesome points; at the same time, they were eager to gain Orthodox acceptance of them as fellow Christians. The Orthodox were not particularly interested in hearing anything from the Anglicans except as far as the latter held or adopted Orthodox positions.

What happened at first was therefore that the Russians were told or heard what they wanted to hear; besides, it proved possible to bend Anglican rites towards more Catholic/Orthodox theology (as the various Anglican missals also attested). But eventually both sides discovered that neither was going to back down on the foundational issue of how to talk about theology. The Orthodox didn't want argument, and the Anglicans didn't want to be lectured. Anglicans continued to do theology independently, and main body of the Anglicans didn't see appeasing the Orthodox as something they wanted to be bound to. Anglicans were also willing to listen to un-Orthodox theologians, and since the latter were willing to enter into argument, they were more influential.
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« Reply #18 on: September 24, 2008, 03:40:03 PM »

Vlad's right that the Orthodox never tell somebody to receive Communion at an Anglican church.

Good summary from Keble. The Anglo-Catholics really thought their position was the authentic one of Anglicanism; in Orthodox and Roman Catholic dialogue with non-AC Anglicans the spanner in the works was and is the different underlying belief of each side.

Orthodox/Roman: Do you believe in such and such? (Meaning: Do you believe this is an indispensable part of an infallible, divinely instituted faith and church?)

Liberal Anglican: Yes. (Meaning: We believe it is one of many valid paths.)

Orthodox and Romans believe in an infallible church. (Ironically this is keeping them apart as each church believes they're it.)

ACs outside of Anglo-Papalism (would-be Roman Catholics, a rare type usually only seen in England) believe in an infallible church in a Vincentian-canon sense.

Left or right, most Anglicans don't. Thus they are Protestants. (If you believe Anglican Articles of Religion 19 and 21 that the church is fallible you believe you can change things the Pope and Orthodox patriarchs dare not. Thus the ordination of women and now gay weddings.)

I'm a firm believer in calling people what they want to be called and I like a common Orthodox expression which I'll paraphrase here as 'we know where grace is but dare not say where it is not'. I don't say 'priestess'. We're not in communion, really because of the infallibility divide, but I don't doubt their faith or sincerity. There is an Episcopal woman priest in my blogroll.
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« Reply #19 on: September 24, 2008, 06:26:39 PM »

Well it wasn't meant to be disrespectful just a fact. I think women pretending to have Holy Orders and celebrating an invalid sacrament is rather disrespectful to Christ. Do you defend the Anglican orders of women Priests?
Why single out women? Are not all who are not in communion with the Orthodox Church of Jesus Christ holding invalid orders? Are men who are Anglican priests also pretending? Are Lutheran priests and Pentecostal pastors pretending too? Is the Pope?



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« Reply #20 on: September 24, 2008, 06:28:22 PM »

Touche
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« Reply #21 on: September 24, 2008, 06:35:04 PM »

Vlad's right that the Orthodox never tell somebody to receive Communion at an Anglican church.

Good summary from Keble. The Anglo-Catholics really thought their position was the authentic one of Anglicanism; in Orthodox and Roman Catholic dialogue with non-AC Anglicans the spanner in the works was and is the different underlying belief of each side.

Orthodox/Roman: Do you believe in such and such? (Meaning: Do you believe this is an indispensable part of an infallible, divinely instituted faith and church?)

Liberal Anglican: Yes. (Meaning: We believe it is one of many valid paths.)

Orthodox and Romans believe in an infallible church. (Ironically this is keeping them apart as each church believes they're it.)

ACs outside of Anglo-Papalism (would-be Roman Catholics, a rare type usually only seen in England) believe in an infallible church in a Vincentian-canon sense.

Left or right, most Anglicans don't. Thus they are Protestants. (If you believe Anglican Articles of Religion 19 and 21 that the church is fallible you believe you can change things the Pope and Orthodox patriarchs dare not. Thus the ordination of women and now gay weddings.)

I'm a firm believer in calling people what they want to be called and I like a common Orthodox expression which I'll paraphrase here as 'we know where grace is but dare not say where it is not'. I don't say 'priestess'. We're not in communion, really because of the infallibility divide, but I don't doubt their faith or sincerity. There is an Episcopal woman priest in my blogroll.

I am not meaning any dissrespect. I used to be Novus Ordo Catholic but then went to the Society of Saint Pius X we are traditional Catholics and we call a spade a spade. It was because of the turmoil in the RC and the haphazardness of the traditional RC movement that led me to look into Orthodoxy and see that it is the truth. I will try to work on being more respectful. But I have always been taught that holy orders are just for men and yes other Christian denominations orders are invalid as a woman clergyman. "We know where grace is but dare not say where it is not" that I like Young fogey and will try to live by it.

God bless
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« Reply #22 on: September 24, 2008, 06:36:39 PM »

I apologize if I have caused any ill feelings.
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« Reply #23 on: September 24, 2008, 07:52:39 PM »

Vlad, if you were led to Orthodoxy through SSPX, I commend you on a considerable achievement. Well done! For the record, I rank friends and family as coming fron every race, colour and creed, and I love them all, without exception. But I draw the line at defending the nitty-gritty of the Orthodox faith.
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« Reply #24 on: September 24, 2008, 08:57:35 PM »

Vlad, if you were led to Orthodoxy through SSPX, I commend you on a considerable achievement. Well done! For the record, I rank friends and family as coming fron every race, colour and creed, and I love them all, without exception. But I draw the line at defending the nitty-gritty of the Orthodox faith.

Well I became Catholic in 2000 and I became fed up with certain things in the Church (especialy the liturgy and VaticanII and the development of doctrine) I went to the SSPX thinking that this is where the truth is, but on more research I have found that the RC has changed it's doctrines for centuries, filioque etc.. and I found that the truest form of Christianity without change or blemish is Holy Orthodoxy. The SSPX is more traditional Catholic but still adheres to the same fallacies of the past RC.
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« Reply #25 on: September 24, 2008, 10:49:48 PM »

I hate to have to say this, Vlad, but the notion that you can assess the correctness of your church's teachings is quite Protestant.
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« Reply #26 on: September 24, 2008, 11:07:57 PM »

I hate to have to say this, Vlad, but the notion that you can assess the correctness of your church's teachings is quite Protestant.


Lol yes Keble noone was questioning their beliefs prior to the reformaton. Cheesy Nah I know what you mean.
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« Reply #27 on: September 25, 2008, 12:41:00 AM »

I hate to have to say this, Vlad, but the notion that you can assess the correctness of your church's teachings is quite Protestant.


I assume this is a jest. But yeah their called history and theology books. When reading them one can come to conclusions other than those of Rome. Particularly in the development of doctrine and the Papacy. Wink
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« Reply #28 on: September 25, 2008, 09:59:07 AM »

Ah yes I read Scamandrius's post and the letter that was written by St. Raphael was from 1927 that's way before Anglicans had women dress up and play Priest and Bishop so I can only Imagine what he would write nowadays. Wink

I gather from the smilie that you were trying to joke here. However, "dress up and play" suggests that the women somehow do not take their orders seriously and are just "pretending".  Huh Undecided  May I ask if you have ever met any serious women clergy from the Episcopal Church, please?    The later post referring to zeitgeist and 'feminazis"   Undecided had me wondering just how much if the real history of the situation is known rather then just some off-hand or derogatory writings.

With respect,

Ebor 
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« Reply #29 on: September 25, 2008, 10:00:52 AM »

I assume this is a jest. But yeah their called history and theology books. When reading them one can come to conclusions other than those of Rome. Particularly in the development of doctrine and the Papacy. Wink

And others may read history and theology books and come to conclusions that are neither RC nor EO, meaning no disrespect.

May I ask what you were before becoming RC in 2000, please?  If you prefer to not say, I apologize for asking and withdraw the question.

Ebor

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« Reply #30 on: September 25, 2008, 10:09:21 AM »

I was a practicing Episcopalian for most of my life. Whatever errors the Episcopal Church might have,including the ordination of women, I can assure that the femlae priests and deacons I knew took thier ministry very seriously. I suffered a heart attack on Palm Sunday of 2000, and my priest was there within an hour. It has always been my practice to call clergy of other religious groups by thier correct title, i.e. "rabbi" "bishop" "pastor". I'm not sure what good is accomplished by deliberately being rude, other then making the poster feel a little superior.

Thank you for this post, Crucifer.   Smiley 

It's interesting how one may say that 'calling a spade a spade' is just honest and a good thing, when to others they could be calling a spade a 'mud-grubber' or some other derogatory name.  Words matter, and words we use can scar another person or put up a barrier so they do not want to listen to us.

So is "honest" (blunt, cliched, name-calling perhaps to others) spade calling for the speaker's benefit or for those whom he/she wants to get the message?


Ebor
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« Reply #31 on: September 25, 2008, 10:24:24 AM »

I hate to have to say this, Vlad, but the notion that you can assess the correctness of your church's teachings is quite Protestant. 

Hmmmm.  Spot-on, I believe.
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« Reply #32 on: September 25, 2008, 10:44:29 AM »

I assume this is a jest. But yeah their called history and theology books. When reading them one can come to conclusions other than those of Rome. Particularly in the development of doctrine and the Papacy. Wink

But if they're infallible, then your conclusions are wrong, and that's just the end of it.
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« Reply #33 on: September 26, 2008, 12:20:53 AM »

I assume this is a jest. But yeah their called history and theology books. When reading them one can come to conclusions other than those of Rome. Particularly in the development of doctrine and the Papacy. Wink

But if they're infallible, then your conclusions are wrong, and that's just the end of it.


Ah, but I don't think the Popes are infallible. The 8 ecumenical councils and the Faith of Holy Orthodoxy yes. The Roman Magisterium and Popes that contradict each other through the centuries no.
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« Reply #34 on: September 26, 2008, 12:38:14 AM »

Ah yes I read Scamandrius's post and the letter that was written by St. Raphael was from 1927 that's way before Anglicans had women dress up and play Priest and Bishop so I can only Imagine what he would write nowadays. Wink

I gather from the smilie that you were trying to joke here. However, "dress up and play" suggests that the women somehow do not take their orders seriously and are just "pretending".  Huh Undecided  May I ask if you have ever met any serious women clergy from the Episcopal Church, please?    The later post referring to zeitgeist and 'feminazis"   Undecided had me wondering just how much if the real history of the situation is known rather then just some off-hand or derogatory writings.

With respect,

Ebor 

Just one. I once went to services at a friends Episcopal Church and the Woman "pastor" talked about how wrong Bush is for not allowing women to have abortions and that she couldn't understand how a misogynist like him would be Episcopal "he must hate seeing a woman as an equal." My friend (a woman by the way) left the Church and became Methodist because of this chick.  I have seen many interviewed that espouse nothing but the feminist agenda. I saw one on CNN talking about how much more "enlightened" the Episcopal Church was, not just Anglican mind you but the US Episcopal(the Africans that don't support womyns ordination are "oh so unenlightened") She went on to talk about how "evil" (her quote) the Catholic Church is for basing ordinations on gender. I also read an interview by presiding "Bishop" Schori in which she talked about how more informed the Episcopal Church is and how it's members are "greener" than Catholics because Episcopalians have fewer children so it is better for the earth.

With respect,

Vlad, not the Impaler
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« Reply #35 on: September 26, 2008, 12:57:50 AM »

I assume this is a jest. But yeah their called history and theology books. When reading them one can come to conclusions other than those of Rome. Particularly in the development of doctrine and the Papacy. Wink

And others may read history and theology books and come to conclusions that are neither RC nor EO, meaning no disrespect.

May I ask what you were before becoming RC in 2000, please?  If you prefer to not say, I apologize for asking and withdraw the question.

Ebor



No I realize that one wouldn't always come to the same conclusions as me, no disrespect taken sir.

I'll answer the rest but prepare for a long read.

My Dad is 7th day adventist and now agnostic. My Mom was raised Catholic but her family quit attending Mass after Vatican II changed the Church. My Dad has always been rather hostile to any organized religion but my Mom despite no Mass attendance has always been Catholic. As a very young child my Mom had to take on a job as well as my Dad to pay the bills and I was raised by my Grandparents (well not raised by but I was with them from 7 am to 6 pm 6 days a week) My grandparents who believed the Catholic Church ceased to teach the truth after Vatican II were very strict sede Vacantist Catholics. When i was with them we prayed the rosary often in Latin and ate fish on Fridays etc... very trad Catholic. When I was about ten my Mom was able to quit her job and take care of me full time she was/is also Catholic but of the brand that thinks the Church post Vatican II is in such chaos they no longer go to Mass. My parents decided because of the split religion in the family that I would choose my own religion. All I ever knew of as a child was traditional Catholicism. Then along came high school and I began seeking spirituality I flirted with buddhism for quite awhile than became agnostic. My senior year I had a girlfriend who was a Baptist she managed to drag me to church with her a few times and it re-awoke my faith but I always knew deep inside I was "destined" to be Catholic( The blood of the Hapsburgs flows through my veins after all). After we broke up I entered RCIA and became Catholic and found the Church that I had grown up with at least in private devotions no longer existed. The Mass was changed and all anyone talked about was social justice and how wrong the Pope is for not allowing women to be Priests. That is the short version of the story Ebor.
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« Reply #36 on: September 26, 2008, 01:02:57 AM »

Ah yes I read Scamandrius's post and the letter that was written by St. Raphael was from 1927 that's way before Anglicans had women dress up and play Priest and Bishop so I can only Imagine what he would write nowadays. Wink

I gather from the smilie that you were trying to joke here. However, "dress up and play" suggests that the women somehow do not take their orders seriously and are just "pretending".  Huh Undecided  May I ask if you have ever met any serious women clergy from the Episcopal Church, please?    The later post referring to zeitgeist and 'feminazis"   Undecided had me wondering just how much if the real history of the situation is known rather then just some off-hand or derogatory writings.

With respect,

Ebor 

Are you suggesting that the women Anglican "Priests" have valid orders?  Just what is the real history of womens "ordination" in the Anglican Church? I mean no disrespect here I really don't know. All I do know is men are Priests women are nuns and that is that and the tradition can not be changed because the modern world thinks it's time to move on.
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« Reply #37 on: September 26, 2008, 02:12:57 AM »

The Mass was changed and all anyone talked about was social justice and how wrong the Pope is for not allowing women to be Priests.

Sounds like most of the RCs I remember from about 20-25 years ago.

Are you suggesting that the women Anglican "Priests" have valid orders?  Just what is the real history of women's "ordination" in the Anglican Church? I mean no disrespect here I really don't know. All I do know is men are Priests women are nuns and that is that and the tradition can not be changed because the modern world thinks it's time to move on.

Ebor is an Anglican and does believe all the priests of her church have valid orders.

To answer your second question, belief in apostolic succession like Rome and the East has distinguished Anglicanism on paper from (other) Protestants but among Anglicans, for example the Calvinist Evangelicals in England (the New England Congregationalists were offshoots of them), there's always been a Protestant tendency to see the forms of the ministry as man-made and functional, not of the unchangeable essence of the church.

Thus during World War II in the Japanese-occupied European colonies (Hong Kong and Macao) on the Chinese coast, an Anglican bishop short of priests to minister to his flocks ordained Florence Li-Tim Oi. After the war she was persuaded to return to lay life for many years. Thus things stood until about the 1970s when the Episcopalians in America made women deacons, then in 1974 broke their own rules and ordained women priests, then approved the latter a couple of years later. Canada, Australia, New Zealand, some African and Asian Anglicans and the British Isles Anglicans followed (the Church of England, the first Anglican church, has had women priests since about 1994 and is about to have women bishops); the Episcopalians had their first woman bishop in 1989.
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« Reply #38 on: September 26, 2008, 05:40:57 PM »

Just one. I once went to services at a friends Episcopal Church and the Woman "pastor" talked about how wrong Bush is for not allowing women to have abortions and that she couldn't understand how a misogynist like him would be Episcopal "he must hate seeing a woman as an equal."

Just one example?  And that therefore applies to all women clergy in the Episcopal church? Not a broad sample.  If the lady was referring to the first president Bush then it was also some time ago as the present resident of the White House is a Methodist, the last I heard, or the speaker could have been confused.  I would like to point out that those are the personal words of one person and one who, from your telling, was doing some labeling, too.  Was this in a Montana parish, may I ask?

Quote
My friend (a woman by the way) left the Church and became Methodist because of this chick.  I have seen many interviewed that espouse nothing but the feminist agenda. I saw one on CNN talking about how much more "enlightened" the Episcopal Church was, not just Anglican mind you but the US Episcopal(the Africans that don't support womyns ordination are "oh so unenlightened") She went on to talk about how "evil" (her quote) the Catholic Church is for basing ordinations on gender. I also read an interview by presiding "Bishop" Schori in which she talked about how more informed the Episcopal Church is and how it's members are "greener" than Catholics because Episcopalians have fewer children so it is better for the earth.

I know of people who have left the Episcopal Church for such reasons and can understand why some are moved to do so. I know others who have become Anglican from EO or RC.

Regarding the interviews, those sorts of statements are the ones that news reports tend to show because controversial or shocking statements make news.  I don't know how much "many" is, but I know of some of the interviews and articles that have gotten people riled up on line.  Though she is not in your Church, and I think that Dr. Schori was not the right choice, she is still a Bishop in the American Episcopal Church so no ""s are needed around her title.  I believe I know the interview you refer to, but I do not recall whether she said anything about being "greener".  Perhaps we can find a transcript to check.  In my opinion, Dr. Schori does not always speak in ways that convey her meaning clearly. 

But have you ever personally talked to an Episcopal clergywoman to find out what she believes or thinks? They are real human beings and not pictures to be labeled.  There are many who are pastoral, serious believers in Our Lord who believe they have a vocation and calling from God.

With respect,

Ebor
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« Reply #39 on: September 26, 2008, 06:03:31 PM »

Thank you for telling us some of your background.  I appreciate you taking the trouble to do so.

Are you suggesting that the women Anglican "Priests" have valid orders? 

As the Young Fogey has written, I am Anglican.  We believe that we do have apostolic succession in our orders.   Smiley

Quote
Just what is the real history of womens "ordination" in the Anglican Church? I mean no disrespect here I really don't know.

YF has covered some of it well.  There have been Anglican deaconesses for a good while and that is what Florence Li Tim Oi was when the Bishop, in emergency circumstances, ordained her to provide the Sacraments for people who were under Japanese control during WWII.  Since you did not know any of the real story, what source was it, may I ask, for labels like "feminazi" or "dress up" please?  It is much more complicated and messy with real people who percieved a vocation and others who did not think it possible and real conflicts and more. 

Quote
All I do know is men are Priests women are nuns and that is that and the tradition can not be changed because the modern world thinks it's time to move on.

That is from your religious background and experience and the RC that says it can't be changed.  But there are those who disagree with the RC and they are people who have reasons and thought and belief; they are not sterotypes or labels.    Smiley  Just for information's sake, there are a number of groups of Anglican/Episcopal religious orders including Benedictines and Franciscans.

Again, thank you for telling some of your story. Smiley  I have to go do some things right now, but perhaps we may continue this later.
Ebor
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« Reply #40 on: September 26, 2008, 08:53:41 PM »

Just for information's sake, there are a number of groups of Anglican/Episcopal religious orders including Benedictines and Franciscans.



And many of them look more Catholic then the Catholic ones. Are you familiar with the Society of the Holy Cross. They are a traditional Anglican order that is verrrrry High Church and seemingly more Catholic than the RC.

I have been to episcopal Masses before and the one thing I will say is that even the low church services are far more reverent than most RC Parishes.
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« Reply #41 on: September 26, 2008, 08:56:26 PM »

I would have a very difficult time accepting a woman as a clergyman because of (as you pointed out my background) I at one time looked into the episcopal Church because the Mass was so much more reverent than the RC I went to. But they got a new rector who was female and it just felt wrong.
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« Reply #42 on: September 26, 2008, 08:57:54 PM »

I would love to discuss more of this with ya Ebor since I am an Anglophile and I love much of the TRADITIONAL Oxford movement aspects of Anglicanism but I gotta go have dinner.

Peace

Vlad
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« Reply #43 on: September 26, 2008, 09:02:51 PM »

All I can add right now is deaconesses date from the 1800s; women deacons from the mid-1900s. The former were/are (I'm fairly sure the Episcopalians and Church of England don't have them any more) the equivalent of RC religious orders of sisters doing active work like teaching or nursing; the latter are in Anglican holy orders. The Anglican deaconess habit looks like some nuns' habits. It was an older, more Protestant thing pre-dating the founding of Anglican groups of monks and nuns that more or less followed traditional RC practice (now they're very liberal).

There's the Order of the Holy Cross, which is as I described Anglican monks today, and then there's the Society of the Holy Cross (known by its Latin initials SSC), a fraternity of Anglo-Catholic parish priests, some of whom have traditional services.
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« Reply #44 on: September 27, 2008, 02:30:33 AM »

]

YF has covered some of it well.  There have been Anglican deaconesses for a good while and that is what Florence Li Tim Oi was when the Bishop, in emergency circumstances, ordained her to provide the Sacraments for people who were under Japanese control during WWII.  Since you did not know any of the real story, what source was it, may I ask, for labels like "feminazi" or "dress up" please?  It is much more complicated and messy with real people who percieved a vocation and others who did not think it possible and real conflicts and more. 


THe femnazi remark was because of the women Priests I have came across or seen interviewd seem to be the very angry feminist types. The "dress up" remark was because from a Catholic perspective and I think Orthodox that is all a woman is doing when she acts as a Priest. At least it is from the Catholic perspective. It was a poor choice of words on my part.
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