Islam and Orthodoxy

[dzheremi]

Related to Nephi's recommendation, you can find in Arthur Jeffrey's "The Foreign Vocabulary of the Quran" (1938; reprinted 2009 by Gorgia's Press)...well, just like the title says: an in-depth study of the foreign vocabulary of the Qur'an. Even at that time, when western scholarship on Islam was not as constrained by political correctness, Jeffery notes that to do research as he has done in compiling the text is to fly in the face of Islamic orthodoxy, though not as it has always been (he highlights the many times when Islamic scholars were at a loss to explain the source of a word that is clearly Hebrew/Syriac/Ge'ez, and even some ones you might not expect like Norse, Slavonic, and Ossetian). This makes it a work of great historical relevance, and somehow unique in the canon of Western scholarship on Islam. The closest thing I've seen in this vein after Jeffrey would be perhaps Ferguson's 1959 work on diglossia in Arabic, as it openly disproved the claims of "pure Qur'anic Arabic" by documenting the influence of the local/national varieties of Arabic on the Qur'anic recitations recorded in various locations throughout the Islamic world.

[dcommini]

Related to Nephi's recommendation, you can find in Arthur Jeffrey's "The Foreign Vocabulary of the Quran" (1938; reprinted 2009 by Gorgia's Press)...well, just like the title says: an in-depth study of the foreign vocabulary of the Qur'an. Even at that time, when western scholarship on Islam was not as constrained by political correctness, Jeffery notes that to do research as he has done in compiling the text is to fly in the face of Islamic orthodoxy, though not as it has always been (he highlights the many times when Islamic scholars were at a loss to explain the source of a word that is clearly Hebrew/Syriac/Ge'ez, and even some ones you might not expect like Norse, Slavonic, and Ossetian). This makes it a work of great historical relevance, and somehow unique in the canon of Western scholarship on Islam. The closest thing I've seen in this vein after Jeffrey would be perhaps Ferguson's 1959 work on diglossia in Arabic, as it openly disproved the claims of "pure Qur'anic Arabic" by documenting the influence of the local/national varieties of Arabic on the Qur'anic recitations recorded in various locations throughout the Islamic world.

Very interesting, thank you, I'll have to check out those sources later.

[Theophilos78]

Have you tried searching articles @ www.answering-islam.org ?

[dcommini]

Have you tried searching articles @ www.answering-islam.org ?

I have, but I have not found quite what I am looking for there.

[Theophilos78]

What kind of information are you looking for? Apart from a few traditional teachings and some linguistic influence (through the Septuagint), Orthodoxy had no influence on Islam.

[dcommini]

Just some sources that show where Islam got certain things from the Orthodox Church, possibly Patristic or other notable sources.

[Jetavan]

I hate to bump such an old thread, but does anybody have any more information on this subject? I am wanting to do a series on my blog that shows how Orthodoxy influenced Mohammed while he was inventing Islam. I would greatly appreciate any sources any one might have, as well as personal experiences from those who converted from Islam to Orthodoxy.

Well, I'm not sure it was Orthodoxy.  It's widely believed that it was Nestorian Christianity that influenced Mohammed.

Well I was thinking more along the lines of certain things - like the prostrations, praying x amount of times a day, chanting, and possibly architecture - more so than I was thinking theology.

There might be some gems here.

[dcommini]

I hate to bump such an old thread, but does anybody have any more information on this subject? I am wanting to do a series on my blog that shows how Orthodoxy influenced Mohammed while he was inventing Islam. I would greatly appreciate any sources any one might have, as well as personal experiences from those who converted from Islam to Orthodoxy.

Well, I'm not sure it was Orthodoxy.  It's widely believed that it was Nestorian Christianity that influenced Mohammed.

Well I was thinking more along the lines of certain things - like the prostrations, praying x amount of times a day, chanting, and possibly architecture - more so than I was thinking theology.

There might be some gems here.

That looks very interesting, and I can get it for my Kobo as well. I'll definitely check that out when my finances permit, thank you.

[minasoliman]

I hate to bump such an old thread, but does anybody have any more information on this subject? I am wanting to do a series on my blog that shows how Orthodoxy influenced Mohammed while he was inventing Islam. I would greatly appreciate any sources any one might have, as well as personal experiences from those who converted from Islam to Orthodoxy.

Well, I'm not sure it was Orthodoxy.  It's widely believed that it was Nestorian Christianity that influenced Mohammed.

Well I was thinking more along the lines of certain things - like the prostrations, praying x amount of times a day, chanting, and possibly architecture - more so than I was thinking theology.

There might be some gems here.

The reader must keep in mind that Sufism is something of a minority of Muslims, whether it be Shia or Sunni.  It's perceived as "weak" and "irrationally peaceful."  If all Muslims were Sufi, there would be no problems in the Middle East.  But yes, Sufism specifically is a direct influence from Eastern Christianity.

[dcommini]

I hate to bump such an old thread, but does anybody have any more information on this subject? I am wanting to do a series on my blog that shows how Orthodoxy influenced Mohammed while he was inventing Islam. I would greatly appreciate any sources any one might have, as well as personal experiences from those who converted from Islam to Orthodoxy.

Well, I'm not sure it was Orthodoxy.  It's widely believed that it was Nestorian Christianity that influenced Mohammed.

Well I was thinking more along the lines of certain things - like the prostrations, praying x amount of times a day, chanting, and possibly architecture - more so than I was thinking theology.

There might be some gems here.

The reader must keep in mind that Sufism is something of a minority of Muslims, whether it be Shia or Sunni.  It's perceived as "weak" and "irrationally peaceful."  If all Muslims were Sufi, there would be no problems in the Middle East.  But yes, Sufism specifically is a direct influence from Eastern Christianity.

Good to know, I will keep that in mind when I read the book.

[dzheremi]

The reader must keep in mind that Sufism is something of a minority of Muslims, whether it be Shia or Sunni.  It's perceived as "weak" and "irrationally peaceful."  If all Muslims were Sufi, there would be no problems in the Middle East.  But yes, Sufism specifically is a direct influence from Eastern Christianity.

I'm really not so sure about the highlighted sentence, Mina. As even mainstream U.S. media outlets recognize, Sufis have historically been very much involved in the violent expansion of Islam, and provide in their own way a defense and wellspring of Islamic violence even today (Sufi orders are big in places like Chechnya and Somalia, remember). They seem peaceful by comparison to their less mystically-oriented compatriots in Islam, but they are not by virtue of their Sufism less violent in practice.

[minasoliman]

The reader must keep in mind that Sufism is something of a minority of Muslims, whether it be Shia or Sunni.  It's perceived as "weak" and "irrationally peaceful."  If all Muslims were Sufi, there would be no problems in the Middle East.  But yes, Sufism specifically is a direct influence from Eastern Christianity.

I'm really not so sure about the highlighted sentence, Mina. As even mainstream U.S. media outlets recognize, Sufis have historical been very much involved in the violent expansion of Islam, and provide in their own way a defense and wellspring of Islamic violence even today (Sufi orders are big in places like Chechnya and Somalia, remember). They seem peaceful by comparison to their less mystically-oriented compatriots in Islam, but they are not by virtue of their Sufism less violent in practice.

In my experience, Sufis have been one of those "love thy enemies" and "your religion is just as good as mine" type of Muslims.

My father's accountant I believe is a Sufi, who my father loves very much concerning his very peaceful demeanor.  People mistake him for a Copt.

[dzheremi]

Yeah, that has been my experience, too. My point is that this seems more situational/circumstantial than some sort of fundamental attitude or approach of Sufism as a whole to other religions or the people who practice them.

Wasn't it the famous Sufi poet Rumi who wrote "I looked for God among the Christians, but did not find Him there"? That, rather than any nice words from your or my Sufi friends, is at the root of all understandings of other religions displayed by any approach to Islam, and in the "right" circumstances, this portends violence for all of us.

[Jetavan]

Yeah, that has been my experience, too. My point is that this seems more situational/circumstantial than some sort of fundamental attitude or approach of Sufism as a whole to other religions or the people who practice them.

Wasn't it the famous Sufi poet Rumi who wrote "I looked for God among the Christians, but did not find Him there"? That, rather than any nice words from your or my Sufi friends, is at the root of all understandings of other religions displayed by any approach to Islam, and in the "right" circumstances, this portends violence for all of us.

Rumi was critiquing the idea that God is somehow exclusively "out there"; he wasn't picking on Christianity in particular -- he criticized aspects of Islamic practice as well. I think this is the full quote:

I searched for God among the Christians and on the Cross and therein I found Him not.
I went into the ancient temples of idolatry; no trace of Him was there.
I entered the mountain cave of Hira and then went as far as Qandhar but God I found not.
With set purpose I fared to the summit of Mount Caucasus and found there only 'anqa's habitation.
Then I directed my search to the Kaaba, the resort of old and young; God was not there even.
Turning to philosophy I inquired about him from ibn Sina but found Him not within his range.
I fared then to the scene of the Prophet's experience of a great divine manifestation only a "two bow-lengths' distance from him" but God was not there even in that exalted court.
Finally, I looked into my own heart and there I saw Him; He was nowhere else.

[dzheremi]

I am aware of that. The point is that Sufis, for all their usual niceness, reject God not any less than other Muslims, and would likewise condemn our God, the true God, not any less than the 'non-mystical' Muslims do. And this is what makes all of Islam, Sufi and non, a kind of minefield resistant to the more broad generalization that I originally objected to. The fact that Sufis have in a sense philosophized, made "mystical" or better said dematerialized their objections and blasphemies does not mean that there is in practice any great difference between them and the "average" Muslim who has also participated in violence to spread or further entrench Islam historically or in our time. So one spins in a circle and chants for a while before taking up the sword. Forgive me if I remain unimpressed by this supposedly benign "mysticism".

But please forgive me, OP and others, for dragging this thread away from its intended purpose. I will not post again on the above matters. To make this post at least somewhat relevant, I see that Amazon has recommended to me (after I did an earlier search for Jeffrey's book, mentioned in my previous post) a book called "Byzantine Christianity and Islam: Historical and Pastoral Reflections", edited by Jack Figel. I've never read it or heard of it, but perhaps it is worth looking into.

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