Islam and Orthodoxy

[johnmac]

What are the influences of Islam on the Orthodox Church?
Thanks,

[SolEX01]

^ Ethnarchy and Division although the Orthodox Church has continued on for 13+ Centuries since the rise of Islam.

[ytterbiumanalyst]

What are the influences of Islam on the Orthodox Church?
Thanks,

A better question would be how have Islam and Orthodoxy influenced each other? There are many similarities between the two, not to mention Islam's recognition of all pre-Christ saints.

[Anastasios]

What are the influences of Islam on the Orthodox Church?
Thanks,

A better question would be how have Islam and Orthodoxy influenced each other? There are many similarities between the two, not to mention Islam's recognition of all pre-Christ saints.

And the Seven Sleepers of Ephesus

[minasoliman]

What are the influences of Islam on the Orthodox Church?
Thanks,

A better question would be how have Islam and Orthodoxy influenced each other? There are many similarities between the two, not to mention Islam's recognition of all pre-Christ saints.

I can think of a couple of things in my mind on the influences between Islam and Christianity in Egypt.

Coptic Orthodox influenced Muslims by empowering women and opening up the idea that something other than a monogamous relationship even among Muslims is somewhat socially unacceptable, somewhat because this is a heated debate between Muslims educated in the ways of Al Azhar (or the more ultra-traditionalist) and the more civilized and moderate Muslims.

Muslims have influenced Copts when it comes to alcohol (and sometimes certain types of music), i.e. it is somewhat of a taboo among religious circles, especially clerical ranks (even though we still use wine for the Blood of Christ in the Eucharist).

[Αριστοκλής]

Historically, iconclasm would be/have been the biggest influence, IMHO.

[scamandrius]

[Muslims have influenced Copts when it comes to alcohol (and sometimes certain types of music), i.e. it is somewhat of a taboo among religious circles, especially clerical ranks (even though we still use wine for the Blood of Christ in the Eucharist).

Don't the Copts also keep kosher (i.e. no pork)?  Is that not also the influence of Islam?

[minasoliman]

[Muslims have influenced Copts when it comes to alcohol (and sometimes certain types of music), i.e. it is somewhat of a taboo among religious circles, especially clerical ranks (even though we still use wine for the Blood of Christ in the Eucharist).

Don't the Copts also keep kosher (i.e. no pork)?  Is that not also the influence of Islam?

No.  Ethiopians keep kosher, and not because of Islam, but because of their ancient Jewish roots (and from what I hear, not all Ethiopians keep kosher).

But I do know my father hates pork.  I likes my ribs 

[scamandrius]

Thanks, Mina.  I didn't know that. 

[ytterbiumanalyst]

What are the influences of Islam on the Orthodox Church?
Thanks,

A better question would be how have Islam and Orthodoxy influenced each other? There are many similarities between the two, not to mention Islam's recognition of all pre-Christ saints.

And the Seven Sleepers of Ephesus

Really? Cool!

[Faith]

Check out this clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u84S0JcgoIk
It briefly mentions how Islam adopted prostrations from Christianity...

Prayers,
Faith

[sohma_hatori]

I didnt know that Oriental Orthodox cross themselves from left to right.. (reffering to the video)

[OrthodoxPilgrim]

What are the influences of Islam on the Orthodox Church?
Thanks,

Not much, to tell you the truth...In fact, if I may be bold enough to say, it was mostly the other way around. From my wanderings from Reformed theology into Orthodoxy, one of my first discoveries was how closely similar the Orthodox worship patterns were to the Islamic ones. When I did a bit of research into this further, I was led to believe that all of the exterior aesthetics of Islam's devotional life (i.e. the prostrations, the kneeling down and the turning towards particular directions to pray, praying 5 times a day, compulsory fasting, pilgrimages and almsgiving) that I as a Protestant, once considered unique was no longer so. In fact, from earliest attestations, one can find Jews and Chrsitians following the same pattern of worship. Not to mention the chanting. Islamic chanting of their own holy scriptures borrows heavily from the Orthodox mode of chanting as well. In short, the more I studied into Orthodoxy, the less appealing I found Islam and the more I saw it as a cheap, "made in China" copycat of the One, True, Apostolic Faith. (no offence to those that are Chinese here.....)

That's just my two cents on the matter...

+
 

[ialmisry]

What are the influences of Islam on the Orthodox Church?
Thanks,

A better question would be how have Islam and Orthodoxy influenced each other? There are many similarities between the two, not to mention Islam's recognition of all pre-Christ saints.

'

Except St. Paul. They blame him for Christianity.

[ialmisry]

Historically, iconclasm would be/have been the biggest influence, IMHO.

On the Protestants.

[ialmisry]

[Muslims have influenced Copts when it comes to alcohol (and sometimes certain types of music), i.e. it is somewhat of a taboo among religious circles, especially clerical ranks (even though we still use wine for the Blood of Christ in the Eucharist).

Don't the Copts also keep kosher (i.e. no pork)?  Is that not also the influence of Islam?

No.  Ethiopians keep kosher, and not because of Islam, but because of their ancient Jewish roots (and from what I hear, not all Ethiopians keep kosher).

But I do know my father hates pork.  I likes my ribs 

And both Ethiopians and Copts circumcize.  But that predates Islam.

[GabrieltheCelt]

What are the influences of Islam on the Orthodox Church?
Thanks,

There are many similarities between the two, not to mention Islam's recognition of all pre-Christ saints.

The similarities are due not so much because the two have influenced one another (although it's possible this has occurred), but because Muhammad was in contact with Orthodoxy on a regular basis.  Makka (Mecca) was a trading hub through which several trading routes crossed through.  There are too many references of Muhammad coming into contact with Christianity during the early days of Islam for there to be a coincidence.  An example from the Qur'an would be the angel Gabriel (Jibra'il in Arabic).  As Gabriel announced to the Theotokos the coming of Jesus, the Qur'an tells us that Gabriel 'announced' to Muhammad about how the Bible had been corrupted by the Christians and how he, Muhammad, is to write down the final, incorrupt Testament if you will (Qur'an means 'to recite', Al Qur'an Al Majid- as it is known in Arabic- means the Glorious or Royal Recitation.)  An example from history, other than the one I provided earlier, is when the Meccan city council sought to protect their interests by running Muhammad out of town.  The story goes that he sought refuge in Ethiopia where the Christian King took him in and helped him.  There Muhammad learned much about Christianity.  Later on, when he returned to Mecca victorious, he smashed all the idols in the Ka'baa except one- an icon of the Theotokos holding the Christ-child.  It's reported to still be there.

This, in addition to what Orthodox Pilgrim wrote, should shed a little light on Islam's background.  There are many scholarly books, both from Christians and Muslims, that point to this as well.  But I always enjoyed the words of St. Issac the Syrian's teachings on how Islam is simply a sect of Christianity.

*Caveat- it should also noted that just as most religion's are no longer monolithic, neither is Islam.  There are so many sects of Islam nowadays, that the argument regarding the similarities will not always hold up.  When I was a practicing Muslim, I belonged to a group known as Sirat al-Qur'an (The Way of the Qur'an); a group that espoused reading the Qur'an only.  In other words, we were Protestant Muslims.

[ialmisry]

Check out this clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u84S0JcgoIk
It briefly mentions how Islam adopted prostrations from Christianity...

Prayers,
Faith

Any other parts of this?

I notice how he says that during the rise in persecution, the number of monks has gone from 10 to over a 100.  The world just doesn't get it.

[Faith]

Check out this clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u84S0JcgoIk
It briefly mentions how Islam adopted prostrations from Christianity...

Prayers,
Faith

Any other parts of this?

Hey ialmisry,

Unfortunately I haven't been able to find any more of this documentary, sorry. But if you ever get your hands on it, please let me know! Thanks!

Prayers,
Faith

[ytterbiumanalyst]

What are the influences of Islam on the Orthodox Church?
Thanks,

A better question would be how have Islam and Orthodoxy influenced each other? There are many similarities between the two, not to mention Islam's recognition of all pre-Christ saints.

'

Except St. Paul. They blame him for Christianity.

Thank you for that information. I was unaware that St. Paul lived before Christ.

[prodromas]

What are the influences of Islam on the Orthodox Church?
Thanks,

A better question would be how have Islam and Orthodoxy influenced each other? There are many similarities between the two, not to mention Islam's recognition of all pre-Christ saints.

'

Except St. Paul. They blame him for Christianity.

Thank you for that information. I was unaware that St. Paul lived before Christ.

LOL I think your joking Mr.Y but for others what Ialmisry means is that Muslims and certain other historians have the concept of "Pauline Christianity" which is that St.Paul is the one who propagated ideas of the resurrection and atonement and the general messiah thing and that these were not the general beliefs of the followers of Christ after his crucifixion (or apparent crucifixion).

[ytterbiumanalyst]

^ Indeed. They view Christianity as something invented by the Apostles, so even though they can accept the Prophets, including Jesus Christ, they do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah. So to them Isaias, Daniel, and Jesus were all preaching Islam.

[GabrieltheCelt]

Paulianity is a theory many Islamic apologists use to discredit Christianity.  Here's a link to one such website Christianity or Paulianity .  Have fun.

[Theophilos78]

^ Indeed. They view Christianity as something invented by the Apostles, so even though they can accept the Prophets, including Jesus Christ, they do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah. So to them Isaias, Daniel, and Jesus were all preaching Islam.

Although Islam considers Jesus one of the Islamic messengers supposedly predicting the coming of Mohammad, it endorses the Christian tenets that Jesus was the only Messiah (with no definition of the word though!) and that Jesus' apostles became triumphant over Jesus' enemies. The current allegations concerning the so-called Pauline Christianity and relevant Paulophobia are alien to the Koran

[Theophilos78]

Orthodox Christianity primarily had a great impact on Mohammad's theology in general. As he confirmed the Torah and certain tenets of Judaism to win the favour of Jews against Meccan pagans and to find allies in case of a war, he did the same by praising the monotheistic faith (Christian) of the Eastern Rome in his scripture. The 30th Surah (chapter) of the Koran is named after Eastern Romans (Rum in Arabic) and predicts the victory of the Roman army against pagans despite their recent defeat in the neighbouring area:

Surah Ar-Rum 30:2-5
The Romans have been defeated. In the nearer land, and they, after their defeat will be victorious. Within ten years - Allah's is the command in the former case and in the latter - and in that day believers will rejoice. In Allah's help to victory. He helpeth to victory whom He will. He is the Mighty, the Merciful.

The Koran also contains the story of the seven sleepers, and the 18th Surah of the Koran, which is named the Cave (Al-Kahf), narrates the miraculous story of those Christian saints in details.

[ytterbiumanalyst]

Welcome, Theophilos, and thank you for your thoughtful reply.

There are many things in Islam which are not in the Qu'ran, but have been added later. For instance, the idea of suicide bombs are nowhere in Islam, but it has been interpreted over the years that to die thus makes one a martyr, which is a key theme of the Qu'ran.

[Theophilos78]

Welcome, Theophilos, and thank you for your thoughtful reply.

There are many things in Islam which are not in the Qu'ran, but have been added later. For instance, the idea of suicide bombs are nowhere in Islam, but it has been interpreted over the years that to die thus makes one a martyr, which is a key theme of the Qu'ran.

Thanks for the welcome and your encouraging words.

Bless you!

[GabrieltheCelt]

Orthodox Christianity primarily had a great impact on Mohammad's theology in general. As he confirmed the Torah and certain tenets of Judaism to win the favour of Jews against Meccan pagans and to find allies in case of a war, he did the same by praising the monotheistic faith (Christian) of the Eastern Rome in his scripture. The 30th Surah (chapter) of the Koran is named after Eastern Romans (Rum in Arabic) and predicts the victory of the Roman army against pagans despite their recent defeat in the neighbouring area:

Surah Ar-Rum 30:2-5
The Romans have been defeated. In the nearer land, and they, after their defeat will be victorious. Within ten years - Allah's is the command in the former case and in the latter - and in that day believers will rejoice. In Allah's help to victory. He helpeth to victory whom He will. He is the Mighty, the Merciful.

The Koran also contains the story of the seven sleepers, and the 18th Surah of the Koran, which is named the Cave (Al-Kahf), narrates the miraculous story of those Christian saints in details.

Welcome Theophilos!

[GabrieltheCelt]

There are many things in Islam which are not in the Qu'ran, but have been added later.

Such as the Hadith which is used in part to interpret the meaning of the Qur'an.  The two main branches of Islam, Shi'at ul Ali (Shi'a) and the Sunni, have different hadith in which they consult.  I'm not as well versed in Sunni Islam, but I believe the method they use to interpret the Qur'an is called Asbab al nazul, which identifies the reason each verse was given so as to put it in context for future understanding. 

For instance, the idea of suicide bombs are nowhere in Islam, but it has been interpreted over the years that to die thus makes one a martyr, which is a key theme of the Qu'ran.

Martyrdom is honored in many of the sects of Islam, esp in Shi'a Islam (the state religion of Iran for example).  And although the way to martyrdom is drastically different in Orthodoxy, it is highly honored with us as well.   The wahhabist interpretation of Sunni Islam is fairly new, having it's origins in the 19th cent by Muhammad al Wahhab in what is now, I understand, in Sa'udi Arabia.

Other sects such as the Druze, Alawi, Sufi, Isma'ili, and Twelvers, as well as Islam as it's understood in Central Asia and the Caucus is even more unique and generally devoid of such radical ideology.

Going back to the early years of Islam, when Muhammad was alive, it's been noted by various Orthodox saints as a Christian sect.  Of coarse, what we see today on the evening news is something radically different.

Edit:Clarification

[Theophilos78]

Welcome Theophilos!

Thanks Gabriel

The reverence paid to the Virgin throughout the Koran illustrates the influence Orthodox Christianity had on Islam. In several verses the authors of the Koran feel themselves obliged to praise Mary whenever they refer to Jesus. It is by no means a coincidence that the Koran lay emphasis on the Virgin's chastity and adapt some of the narratives in the apocryphal Gospels to the Islamic teaching with the help of a few textual modifications on the original texts. The long narrative relating Panaghia's birth and dedication to the Temple occurs in the third Surah of the Koran, and is apparently adopted from the Gospel of James.

[minasoliman]

Welcome Theophilos!

Thanks Gabriel

The reverence paid to the Virgin throughout the Koran illustrates the influence Orthodox Christianity had on Islam. In several verses the authors of the Koran feel themselves obliged to praise Mary whenever they refer to Jesus. It is by no means a coincidence that the Koran lay emphasis on the Virgin's chastity and adapt some of the narratives in the apocryphal Gospels to the Islamic teaching with the help of a few textual modifications on the original texts. The long narrative relating Panaghia's birth and dedication to the Temple occurs in the third Surah of the Koran, and is apparently adopted from the Gospel of James.

This reminds me of my Grandmother who loved the Virgin Theotokos so much that she would say something like "the Muslims are more Christian and worth more praise than those disrespectful and godawful Protestants."  She could not imagine a Christianity without praise and respect to the Theotokos, as opposed to the polemical idea that some Protestants believe she's a mere tool of God.

Even in the case of the miracle of the Virgin's appearance at a Coptic church in Zeitoun, the Islamic-dominated government also paid respects to the authenticity of the miracle.

God bless.

[Theophilos78]

This reminds me of my Grandmother who loved the Virgin Theotokos so much that she would say something like "the Muslims are more Christian and worth more praise than those disrespectful and godawful Protestants."  She could not imagine a Christianity without praise and respect to the Theotokos, as opposed to the polemical idea that some Protestants believe she's a mere tool of God.

Even in the case of the miracle of the Virgin's appearance at a Coptic church in Zeitoun, the Islamic-dominated government also paid respects to the authenticity of the miracle.

God bless.

Protestants have lots of things to learn from Muslims about Panaghia. It is ironic that the members of a non-Christian religion venerate Panaghia more than Jesus' true followers. I hope the Reformists will be aware of their mistakes.

Blessings to you!

[minasoliman]

This reminds me of my Grandmother who loved the Virgin Theotokos so much that she would say something like "the Muslims are more Christian and worth more praise than those disrespectful and godawful Protestants."  She could not imagine a Christianity without praise and respect to the Theotokos, as opposed to the polemical idea that some Protestants believe she's a mere tool of God.

Even in the case of the miracle of the Virgin's appearance at a Coptic church in Zeitoun, the Islamic-dominated government also paid respects to the authenticity of the miracle.

God bless.

Protestants have lots of things to learn from Muslims about Panaghia. It is ironic that the members of a non-Christian religion venerate Panaghia more than Jesus' true followers. I hope the Reformists will be aware of their mistakes.

Blessings to you!

And blessings to you too.  Welcome to the forum

[Thomas]

There is an interesting article in this month's issue of "The Word" magazine on the Antiochian Orthodox Church website located at
www.antiochian.org/sites/antiochian.org/files/OCTOBER%20%202008%20WORD.pdf.pdf   It was presented to the annual clergy meeting at Ligoner Pa.

Thomas

[Vladik]

Post moved from If you want to help a christian that losing his faith then please help me, since the subject of this post struck me as largely irrelevant to the topic presented on that thread...  Good post, though.  Thanks for the info.   -PeterTheAleut


According to Koran and Muslim Sunnah: Allah is not Love, has no humility, proude and isn't holy, he is cunning fellow (see Koran 86.16) who «deceives» (Koran 4.141), source of evil, doesn't want for all people to be saved (32:13) created some people especialy for hell (7.179). aLLAH jeerS at some people leading them astray (2.14; 7.178, 186)...

Compare it with our Holy Bible, the real Afflatus of real Living God:
"God is love, and whoever remains in love remains in God, and God remains in him" (1 John 4:15)   "God our Savior who desires all people to be saved and to come to the full knowledge of the truth." (1Tim.2:4)
"Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways ( Ezekiel 33:11)

Here you can find some great Orthodox articles against Muslim false doctrine (in English, Russian and Bulgurian) - http://pravoslavie-i-islam.ru/indexeng.htm

Such as: "Holy Fathers about Islam", "Articles of Contemporary Orthodox Authors", "Orthodox Mission in Muslim World", "Works of non-orthodox Missionaries", "Testimonies of Muslims, who became Christians", "Materials about History of Islam" etc.

[recent convert]

Also see http://www.denver.goarch.org/biography/influence_of_islam.html

[David Young]

One of the major impacts Islam had on Orthodoxy, within the Ottoman Empire, was the division of their subject peoples into millets, according to religion with no regard to race, language or geography. All Orthodox were in the Greek millet. This had a massive impact on fusing Orthodoxy and nationalism, as the Serbian Orthodox church strove to maintain its life, language and culture against Greek hellenising pressure, thus fusing the Serbian Orthodox church and Serbian nationalism in Serbia's struggle against Greek religious and Turkish political dominion, and as the Greek Orthodox church strove for Greek independence from Turkey, thus advancing the idea that Greek=Orthodox=Greek. Nationalism became so intertwined with religion that it persists today, so that a crippling and unseemly feature of Orthodoxy in the Balkans is its close entanglement with politics. Greece would like to annex southern Albania - which they call Northern Epirus (having already acquired Çamëria); Serbia tried to 'cleanse' Kosova of Islam with a view to re-settling displaced Serbs there and creating a pure Orthodox region.

This is deeply regrettable, for there is much in Orthodoxy that is attractive and of potential benefit in enriching the wider Body of Christ, but the Church in those places makes itself seen to its outsiders as largely an implement in the control of Greek or Serbian expansionism, lacking the appeal of that grace and humility which we see in our Lord's invitations to sinful men and women to come to him and never be cast out.

[Michael L]

Check out this clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u84S0JcgoIk
It briefly mentions how Islam adopted prostrations from Christianity...

Prayers,
Faith

Any other parts of this?

I notice how he says that during the rise in persecution, the number of monks has gone from 10 to over a 100.  The world just doesn't get it.

Here is the entire episode of the clip posted above: http://orthodoxfathers.org/?p=261

[Elpidophoros]

This reminds me of my Grandmother who loved the Virgin Theotokos so much that she would say something like "the Muslims are more Christian and worth more praise than those disrespectful and godawful Protestants."  She could not imagine a Christianity without praise and respect to the Theotokos, as opposed to the polemical idea that some Protestants believe she's a mere tool of God.

Even in the case of the miracle of the Virgin's appearance at a Coptic church in Zeitoun, the Islamic-dominated government also paid respects to the authenticity of the miracle.

God bless.

Protestants have lots of things to learn from Muslims about Panaghia. It is ironic that the members of a non-Christian religion venerate Panaghia more than Jesus' true followers. I hope the Reformists will be aware of their mistakes.

Blessings to you!

"Protestants=Jesus' true followers"

[Dan-Romania]

Otomans venerat Mary ? Cool ! I have a sympathy for all the peoples of the world and cultures . By the way how is it with that Miracle of Panaghia in Syria of the young Saudi Arabian muslim ? Answer me in one of the Marian threads . Peace ! I sense a good vibe from Turkey .

[Theophilos78]

"Protestants=Jesus' true followers"

NO

I meant Christians when I said "Jesus' true followers" in contrast to Muslims (non-Christians)

[dcommini]

I hate to bump such an old thread, but does anybody have any more information on this subject? I am wanting to do a series on my blog that shows how Orthodoxy influenced Mohammed while he was inventing Islam. I would greatly appreciate any sources any one might have, as well as personal experiences from those who converted from Islam to Orthodoxy.

[minasoliman]

I hate to bump such an old thread, but does anybody have any more information on this subject? I am wanting to do a series on my blog that shows how Orthodoxy influenced Mohammed while he was inventing Islam. I would greatly appreciate any sources any one might have, as well as personal experiences from those who converted from Islam to Orthodoxy.

Well, I'm not sure it was Orthodoxy.  It's widely believed that it was Nestorian Christianity that influenced Mohammed.

[Nephi]

http://www.amazon.com/Encounter-Eastern-Christianity-Early-Islam/dp/9004149384/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1320108941&sr=8-3

There's an essay in this book that discusses the usage of, if I'm remembering correctly, Ethiopian words for Biblical persons by early Muslims/Muhammad. This book in general is good for such a topic, check it out if you can.

[dcommini]

I hate to bump such an old thread, but does anybody have any more information on this subject? I am wanting to do a series on my blog that shows how Orthodoxy influenced Mohammed while he was inventing Islam. I would greatly appreciate any sources any one might have, as well as personal experiences from those who converted from Islam to Orthodoxy.

Well, I'm not sure it was Orthodoxy.  It's widely believed that it was Nestorian Christianity that influenced Mohammed.

Well I was thinking more along the lines of certain things - like the prostrations, praying x amount of times a day, chanting, and possibly architecture - more so than I was thinking theology.

http://www.amazon.com/Encounter-Eastern-Christianity-Early-Islam/dp/9004149384/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1320108941&sr=8-3

There's an essay in this book that discusses the usage of, if I'm remembering correctly, Ethiopian words for Biblical persons by early Muslims/Muhammad. This book in general is good for such a topic, check it out if you can.

Thank you, I will try to check out the book when my time permits. If any one had links to anything I could actually read on the web that would be great; given my current location (a base in Iraq that is about to be closed to US military) it would be far easier, though I may just have to wait until I return home before I start serious research on this subject.

[dzheremi]

Related to Nephi's recommendation, you can find in Arthur Jeffrey's "The Foreign Vocabulary of the Quran" (1938; reprinted 2009 by Gorgia's Press)...well, just like the title says: an in-depth study of the foreign vocabulary of the Qur'an. Even at that time, when western scholarship on Islam was not as constrained by political correctness, Jeffery notes that to do research as he has done in compiling the text is to fly in the face of Islamic orthodoxy, though not as it has always been (he highlights the many times when Islamic scholars were at a loss to explain the source of a word that is clearly Hebrew/Syriac/Ge'ez, and even some ones you might not expect like Norse, Slavonic, and Ossetian). This makes it a work of great historical relevance, and somehow unique in the canon of Western scholarship on Islam. The closest thing I've seen in this vein after Jeffrey would be perhaps Ferguson's 1959 work on diglossia in Arabic, as it openly disproved the claims of "pure Qur'anic Arabic" by documenting the influence of the local/national varieties of Arabic on the Qur'anic recitations recorded in various locations throughout the Islamic world.

[dcommini]

Related to Nephi's recommendation, you can find in Arthur Jeffrey's "The Foreign Vocabulary of the Quran" (1938; reprinted 2009 by Gorgia's Press)...well, just like the title says: an in-depth study of the foreign vocabulary of the Qur'an. Even at that time, when western scholarship on Islam was not as constrained by political correctness, Jeffery notes that to do research as he has done in compiling the text is to fly in the face of Islamic orthodoxy, though not as it has always been (he highlights the many times when Islamic scholars were at a loss to explain the source of a word that is clearly Hebrew/Syriac/Ge'ez, and even some ones you might not expect like Norse, Slavonic, and Ossetian). This makes it a work of great historical relevance, and somehow unique in the canon of Western scholarship on Islam. The closest thing I've seen in this vein after Jeffrey would be perhaps Ferguson's 1959 work on diglossia in Arabic, as it openly disproved the claims of "pure Qur'anic Arabic" by documenting the influence of the local/national varieties of Arabic on the Qur'anic recitations recorded in various locations throughout the Islamic world.

Very interesting, thank you, I'll have to check out those sources later.

[Theophilos78]

Have you tried searching articles @ www.answering-islam.org ?

[dcommini]

Have you tried searching articles @ www.answering-islam.org ?

I have, but I have not found quite what I am looking for there.

[Theophilos78]

What kind of information are you looking for? Apart from a few traditional teachings and some linguistic influence (through the Septuagint), Orthodoxy had no influence on Islam.

[dcommini]

Just some sources that show where Islam got certain things from the Orthodox Church, possibly Patristic or other notable sources.

[Jetavan]

I hate to bump such an old thread, but does anybody have any more information on this subject? I am wanting to do a series on my blog that shows how Orthodoxy influenced Mohammed while he was inventing Islam. I would greatly appreciate any sources any one might have, as well as personal experiences from those who converted from Islam to Orthodoxy.

Well, I'm not sure it was Orthodoxy.  It's widely believed that it was Nestorian Christianity that influenced Mohammed.

Well I was thinking more along the lines of certain things - like the prostrations, praying x amount of times a day, chanting, and possibly architecture - more so than I was thinking theology.

There might be some gems here.

[dcommini]

I hate to bump such an old thread, but does anybody have any more information on this subject? I am wanting to do a series on my blog that shows how Orthodoxy influenced Mohammed while he was inventing Islam. I would greatly appreciate any sources any one might have, as well as personal experiences from those who converted from Islam to Orthodoxy.

Well, I'm not sure it was Orthodoxy.  It's widely believed that it was Nestorian Christianity that influenced Mohammed.

Well I was thinking more along the lines of certain things - like the prostrations, praying x amount of times a day, chanting, and possibly architecture - more so than I was thinking theology.

There might be some gems here.

That looks very interesting, and I can get it for my Kobo as well. I'll definitely check that out when my finances permit, thank you.

[minasoliman]

I hate to bump such an old thread, but does anybody have any more information on this subject? I am wanting to do a series on my blog that shows how Orthodoxy influenced Mohammed while he was inventing Islam. I would greatly appreciate any sources any one might have, as well as personal experiences from those who converted from Islam to Orthodoxy.

Well, I'm not sure it was Orthodoxy.  It's widely believed that it was Nestorian Christianity that influenced Mohammed.

Well I was thinking more along the lines of certain things - like the prostrations, praying x amount of times a day, chanting, and possibly architecture - more so than I was thinking theology.

There might be some gems here.

The reader must keep in mind that Sufism is something of a minority of Muslims, whether it be Shia or Sunni.  It's perceived as "weak" and "irrationally peaceful."  If all Muslims were Sufi, there would be no problems in the Middle East.  But yes, Sufism specifically is a direct influence from Eastern Christianity.

[dcommini]

I hate to bump such an old thread, but does anybody have any more information on this subject? I am wanting to do a series on my blog that shows how Orthodoxy influenced Mohammed while he was inventing Islam. I would greatly appreciate any sources any one might have, as well as personal experiences from those who converted from Islam to Orthodoxy.

Well, I'm not sure it was Orthodoxy.  It's widely believed that it was Nestorian Christianity that influenced Mohammed.

Well I was thinking more along the lines of certain things - like the prostrations, praying x amount of times a day, chanting, and possibly architecture - more so than I was thinking theology.

There might be some gems here.

The reader must keep in mind that Sufism is something of a minority of Muslims, whether it be Shia or Sunni.  It's perceived as "weak" and "irrationally peaceful."  If all Muslims were Sufi, there would be no problems in the Middle East.  But yes, Sufism specifically is a direct influence from Eastern Christianity.

Good to know, I will keep that in mind when I read the book.

[dzheremi]

The reader must keep in mind that Sufism is something of a minority of Muslims, whether it be Shia or Sunni.  It's perceived as "weak" and "irrationally peaceful."  If all Muslims were Sufi, there would be no problems in the Middle East.  But yes, Sufism specifically is a direct influence from Eastern Christianity.

I'm really not so sure about the highlighted sentence, Mina. As even mainstream U.S. media outlets recognize, Sufis have historically been very much involved in the violent expansion of Islam, and provide in their own way a defense and wellspring of Islamic violence even today (Sufi orders are big in places like Chechnya and Somalia, remember). They seem peaceful by comparison to their less mystically-oriented compatriots in Islam, but they are not by virtue of their Sufism less violent in practice.

[minasoliman]

The reader must keep in mind that Sufism is something of a minority of Muslims, whether it be Shia or Sunni.  It's perceived as "weak" and "irrationally peaceful."  If all Muslims were Sufi, there would be no problems in the Middle East.  But yes, Sufism specifically is a direct influence from Eastern Christianity.

I'm really not so sure about the highlighted sentence, Mina. As even mainstream U.S. media outlets recognize, Sufis have historical been very much involved in the violent expansion of Islam, and provide in their own way a defense and wellspring of Islamic violence even today (Sufi orders are big in places like Chechnya and Somalia, remember). They seem peaceful by comparison to their less mystically-oriented compatriots in Islam, but they are not by virtue of their Sufism less violent in practice.

In my experience, Sufis have been one of those "love thy enemies" and "your religion is just as good as mine" type of Muslims.

My father's accountant I believe is a Sufi, who my father loves very much concerning his very peaceful demeanor.  People mistake him for a Copt.

[dzheremi]

Yeah, that has been my experience, too. My point is that this seems more situational/circumstantial than some sort of fundamental attitude or approach of Sufism as a whole to other religions or the people who practice them.

Wasn't it the famous Sufi poet Rumi who wrote "I looked for God among the Christians, but did not find Him there"? That, rather than any nice words from your or my Sufi friends, is at the root of all understandings of other religions displayed by any approach to Islam, and in the "right" circumstances, this portends violence for all of us.

[Jetavan]

Yeah, that has been my experience, too. My point is that this seems more situational/circumstantial than some sort of fundamental attitude or approach of Sufism as a whole to other religions or the people who practice them.

Wasn't it the famous Sufi poet Rumi who wrote "I looked for God among the Christians, but did not find Him there"? That, rather than any nice words from your or my Sufi friends, is at the root of all understandings of other religions displayed by any approach to Islam, and in the "right" circumstances, this portends violence for all of us.

Rumi was critiquing the idea that God is somehow exclusively "out there"; he wasn't picking on Christianity in particular -- he criticized aspects of Islamic practice as well. I think this is the full quote:

I searched for God among the Christians and on the Cross and therein I found Him not.
I went into the ancient temples of idolatry; no trace of Him was there.
I entered the mountain cave of Hira and then went as far as Qandhar but God I found not.
With set purpose I fared to the summit of Mount Caucasus and found there only 'anqa's habitation.
Then I directed my search to the Kaaba, the resort of old and young; God was not there even.
Turning to philosophy I inquired about him from ibn Sina but found Him not within his range.
I fared then to the scene of the Prophet's experience of a great divine manifestation only a "two bow-lengths' distance from him" but God was not there even in that exalted court.
Finally, I looked into my own heart and there I saw Him; He was nowhere else.

[dzheremi]

I am aware of that. The point is that Sufis, for all their usual niceness, reject God not any less than other Muslims, and would likewise condemn our God, the true God, not any less than the 'non-mystical' Muslims do. And this is what makes all of Islam, Sufi and non, a kind of minefield resistant to the more broad generalization that I originally objected to. The fact that Sufis have in a sense philosophized, made "mystical" or better said dematerialized their objections and blasphemies does not mean that there is in practice any great difference between them and the "average" Muslim who has also participated in violence to spread or further entrench Islam historically or in our time. So one spins in a circle and chants for a while before taking up the sword. Forgive me if I remain unimpressed by this supposedly benign "mysticism".

But please forgive me, OP and others, for dragging this thread away from its intended purpose. I will not post again on the above matters. To make this post at least somewhat relevant, I see that Amazon has recommended to me (after I did an earlier search for Jeffrey's book, mentioned in my previous post) a book called "Byzantine Christianity and Islam: Historical and Pastoral Reflections", edited by Jack Figel. I've never read it or heard of it, but perhaps it is worth looking into.

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