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« on: September 17, 2008, 08:12:37 PM »

What are the influences of Islam on the Orthodox Church?
Thanks,
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« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2008, 08:23:42 PM »

^ Ethnarchy and Division although the Orthodox Church has continued on for 13+ Centuries since the rise of Islam.
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« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2008, 11:58:27 AM »

What are the influences of Islam on the Orthodox Church?
Thanks,
A better question would be how have Islam and Orthodoxy influenced each other? There are many similarities between the two, not to mention Islam's recognition of all pre-Christ saints.
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« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2008, 11:59:50 AM »

What are the influences of Islam on the Orthodox Church?
Thanks,
A better question would be how have Islam and Orthodoxy influenced each other? There are many similarities between the two, not to mention Islam's recognition of all pre-Christ saints.
And the Seven Sleepers of Ephesus Wink
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« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2008, 02:51:34 PM »

What are the influences of Islam on the Orthodox Church?
Thanks,
A better question would be how have Islam and Orthodoxy influenced each other? There are many similarities between the two, not to mention Islam's recognition of all pre-Christ saints.

I can think of a couple of things in my mind on the influences between Islam and Christianity in Egypt.

Coptic Orthodox influenced Muslims by empowering women and opening up the idea that something other than a monogamous relationship even among Muslims is somewhat socially unacceptable, somewhat because this is a heated debate between Muslims educated in the ways of Al Azhar (or the more ultra-traditionalist) and the more civilized and moderate Muslims.

Muslims have influenced Copts when it comes to alcohol (and sometimes certain types of music), i.e. it is somewhat of a taboo among religious circles, especially clerical ranks (even though we still use wine for the Blood of Christ in the Eucharist).
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« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2008, 03:49:52 PM »

Historically, iconclasm would be/have been the biggest influence, IMHO.
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« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2008, 03:52:53 PM »

[Muslims have influenced Copts when it comes to alcohol (and sometimes certain types of music), i.e. it is somewhat of a taboo among religious circles, especially clerical ranks (even though we still use wine for the Blood of Christ in the Eucharist).

Don't the Copts also keep kosher (i.e. no pork)?  Is that not also the influence of Islam?
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« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2008, 04:30:57 PM »

[Muslims have influenced Copts when it comes to alcohol (and sometimes certain types of music), i.e. it is somewhat of a taboo among religious circles, especially clerical ranks (even though we still use wine for the Blood of Christ in the Eucharist).

Don't the Copts also keep kosher (i.e. no pork)?  Is that not also the influence of Islam?

No.  Ethiopians keep kosher, and not because of Islam, but because of their ancient Jewish roots (and from what I hear, not all Ethiopians keep kosher).

But I do know my father hates pork.  I likes my ribs  Grin
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« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2008, 06:16:43 PM »

Thanks, Mina.  I didn't know that. 
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« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2008, 08:47:51 PM »

What are the influences of Islam on the Orthodox Church?
Thanks,
A better question would be how have Islam and Orthodoxy influenced each other? There are many similarities between the two, not to mention Islam's recognition of all pre-Christ saints.
And the Seven Sleepers of Ephesus Wink
Really? Cool!
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« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2008, 10:46:06 PM »

Check out this clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u84S0JcgoIk
It briefly mentions how Islam adopted prostrations from Christianity...

Prayers,
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« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2008, 07:49:48 AM »

I didnt know that Oriental Orthodox cross themselves from left to right.. (reffering to the video)
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« Reply #12 on: September 28, 2008, 10:41:59 PM »

What are the influences of Islam on the Orthodox Church?
Thanks,

Not much, to tell you the truth...In fact, if I may be bold enough to say, it was mostly the other way around. From my wanderings from Reformed theology into Orthodoxy, one of my first discoveries was how closely similar the Orthodox worship patterns were to the Islamic ones. When I did a bit of research into this further, I was led to believe that all of the exterior aesthetics of Islam's devotional life (i.e. the prostrations, the kneeling down and the turning towards particular directions to pray, praying 5 times a day, compulsory fasting, pilgrimages and almsgiving) that I as a Protestant, once considered unique was no longer so. In fact, from earliest attestations, one can find Jews and Chrsitians following the same pattern of worship. Not to mention the chanting. Islamic chanting of their own holy scriptures borrows heavily from the Orthodox mode of chanting as well. In short, the more I studied into Orthodoxy, the less appealing I found Islam and the more I saw it as a cheap, "made in China" copycat of the One, True, Apostolic Faith. (no offence to those that are Chinese here.....)

That's just my two cents on the matter...

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« Reply #13 on: September 29, 2008, 11:08:35 AM »

What are the influences of Islam on the Orthodox Church?
Thanks,
A better question would be how have Islam and Orthodoxy influenced each other? There are many similarities between the two, not to mention Islam's recognition of all pre-Christ saints.
'

Except St. Paul. They blame him for Christianity.
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« Reply #14 on: September 29, 2008, 11:10:47 AM »

Historically, iconclasm would be/have been the biggest influence, IMHO.
On the Protestants.
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« Reply #15 on: September 29, 2008, 11:15:57 AM »

[Muslims have influenced Copts when it comes to alcohol (and sometimes certain types of music), i.e. it is somewhat of a taboo among religious circles, especially clerical ranks (even though we still use wine for the Blood of Christ in the Eucharist).

Don't the Copts also keep kosher (i.e. no pork)?  Is that not also the influence of Islam?

No.  Ethiopians keep kosher, and not because of Islam, but because of their ancient Jewish roots (and from what I hear, not all Ethiopians keep kosher).

But I do know my father hates pork.  I likes my ribs  Grin

And both Ethiopians and Copts circumcize.  But that predates Islam.
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« Reply #16 on: September 29, 2008, 11:54:47 AM »

What are the influences of Islam on the Orthodox Church?
Thanks,
There are many similarities between the two, not to mention Islam's recognition of all pre-Christ saints.
The similarities are due not so much because the two have influenced one another (although it's possible this has occurred), but because Muhammad was in contact with Orthodoxy on a regular basis.  Makka (Mecca) was a trading hub through which several trading routes crossed through.  There are too many references of Muhammad coming into contact with Christianity during the early days of Islam for there to be a coincidence.  An example from the Qur'an would be the angel Gabriel (Jibra'il in Arabic).  As Gabriel announced to the Theotokos the coming of Jesus, the Qur'an tells us that Gabriel 'announced' to Muhammad about how the Bible had been corrupted by the Christians and how he, Muhammad, is to write down the final, incorrupt Testament if you will (Qur'an means 'to recite', Al Qur'an Al Majid- as it is known in Arabic- means the Glorious or Royal Recitation.)  An example from history, other than the one I provided earlier, is when the Meccan city council sought to protect their interests by running Muhammad out of town.  The story goes that he sought refuge in Ethiopia where the Christian King took him in and helped him.  There Muhammad learned much about Christianity.  Later on, when he returned to Mecca victorious, he smashed all the idols in the Ka'baa except one- an icon of the Theotokos holding the Christ-child.  It's reported to still be there.

This, in addition to what Orthodox Pilgrim wrote, should shed a little light on Islam's background.  There are many scholarly books, both from Christians and Muslims, that point to this as well.  But I always enjoyed the words of St. Issac the Syrian's teachings on how Islam is simply a sect of Christianity.

*Caveat- it should also noted that just as most religion's are no longer monolithic, neither is Islam.  There are so many sects of Islam nowadays, that the argument regarding the similarities will not always hold up.  When I was a practicing Muslim, I belonged to a group known as Sirat al-Qur'an (The Way of the Qur'an); a group that espoused reading the Qur'an only.  In other words, we were Protestant Muslims. Wink
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« Reply #17 on: September 29, 2008, 08:54:19 PM »

Check out this clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u84S0JcgoIk
It briefly mentions how Islam adopted prostrations from Christianity...

Prayers,
Faith

Any other parts of this?

I notice how he says that during the rise in persecution, the number of monks has gone from 10 to over a 100.  The world just doesn't get it.
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« Reply #18 on: September 29, 2008, 11:38:14 PM »

Check out this clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u84S0JcgoIk
It briefly mentions how Islam adopted prostrations from Christianity...

Prayers,
Faith

Any other parts of this?


Hey ialmisry,

Unfortunately I haven't been able to find any more of this documentary, sorry. But if you ever get your hands on it, please let me know! Thanks!

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« Reply #19 on: September 30, 2008, 09:13:32 AM »

What are the influences of Islam on the Orthodox Church?
Thanks,
A better question would be how have Islam and Orthodoxy influenced each other? There are many similarities between the two, not to mention Islam's recognition of all pre-Christ saints.
'

Except St. Paul. They blame him for Christianity.
Thank you for that information. I was unaware that St. Paul lived before Christ.
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« Reply #20 on: September 30, 2008, 11:25:54 AM »

What are the influences of Islam on the Orthodox Church?
Thanks,
A better question would be how have Islam and Orthodoxy influenced each other? There are many similarities between the two, not to mention Islam's recognition of all pre-Christ saints.
'

Except St. Paul. They blame him for Christianity.
Thank you for that information. I was unaware that St. Paul lived before Christ.

LOL I think your joking Mr.Y but for others what Ialmisry means is that Muslims and certain other historians have the concept of "Pauline Christianity" which is that St.Paul is the one who propagated ideas of the resurrection and atonement and the general messiah thing and that these were not the general beliefs of the followers of Christ after his crucifixion (or apparent crucifixion).
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« Reply #21 on: September 30, 2008, 11:30:36 AM »

^ Indeed. They view Christianity as something invented by the Apostles, so even though they can accept the Prophets, including Jesus Christ, they do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah. So to them Isaias, Daniel, and Jesus were all preaching Islam.
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« Reply #22 on: September 30, 2008, 11:37:55 AM »

Paulianity is a theory many Islamic apologists use to discredit Christianity.  Here's a link to one such website Christianity or Paulianity .  Have fun. Smiley
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« Reply #23 on: October 01, 2008, 04:11:16 PM »

^ Indeed. They view Christianity as something invented by the Apostles, so even though they can accept the Prophets, including Jesus Christ, they do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah. So to them Isaias, Daniel, and Jesus were all preaching Islam.

Although Islam considers Jesus one of the Islamic messengers supposedly predicting the coming of Mohammad, it endorses the Christian tenets that Jesus was the only Messiah (with no definition of the word though!) and that Jesus' apostles became triumphant over Jesus' enemies. The current allegations concerning the so-called Pauline Christianity and relevant Paulophobia are alien to the Koran Smiley


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« Reply #24 on: October 01, 2008, 04:22:31 PM »

Orthodox Christianity primarily had a great impact on Mohammad's theology in general. As he confirmed the Torah and certain tenets of Judaism to win the favour of Jews against Meccan pagans and to find allies in case of a war, he did the same by praising the monotheistic faith (Christian) of the Eastern Rome in his scripture. The 30th Surah (chapter) of the Koran is named after Eastern Romans (Rum in Arabic) and predicts the victory of the Roman army against pagans despite their recent defeat in the neighbouring area:

Surah Ar-Rum 30:2-5
The Romans have been defeated. In the nearer land, and they, after their defeat will be victorious. Within ten years - Allah's is the command in the former case and in the latter - and in that day believers will rejoice. In Allah's help to victory. He helpeth to victory whom He will. He is the Mighty, the Merciful.

The Koran also contains the story of the seven sleepers, and the 18th Surah of the Koran, which is named the Cave (Al-Kahf), narrates the miraculous story of those Christian saints in details.



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« Reply #25 on: October 01, 2008, 04:35:39 PM »

Welcome, Theophilos, and thank you for your thoughtful reply.

There are many things in Islam which are not in the Qu'ran, but have been added later. For instance, the idea of suicide bombs are nowhere in Islam, but it has been interpreted over the years that to die thus makes one a martyr, which is a key theme of the Qu'ran.
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« Reply #26 on: October 02, 2008, 01:13:58 PM »

Welcome, Theophilos, and thank you for your thoughtful reply.

There are many things in Islam which are not in the Qu'ran, but have been added later. For instance, the idea of suicide bombs are nowhere in Islam, but it has been interpreted over the years that to die thus makes one a martyr, which is a key theme of the Qu'ran.

Thanks for the welcome and your encouraging words.

Bless you!
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« Reply #27 on: October 02, 2008, 05:36:53 PM »

Orthodox Christianity primarily had a great impact on Mohammad's theology in general. As he confirmed the Torah and certain tenets of Judaism to win the favour of Jews against Meccan pagans and to find allies in case of a war, he did the same by praising the monotheistic faith (Christian) of the Eastern Rome in his scripture. The 30th Surah (chapter) of the Koran is named after Eastern Romans (Rum in Arabic) and predicts the victory of the Roman army against pagans despite their recent defeat in the neighbouring area:

Surah Ar-Rum 30:2-5
The Romans have been defeated. In the nearer land, and they, after their defeat will be victorious. Within ten years - Allah's is the command in the former case and in the latter - and in that day believers will rejoice. In Allah's help to victory. He helpeth to victory whom He will. He is the Mighty, the Merciful.

The Koran also contains the story of the seven sleepers, and the 18th Surah of the Koran, which is named the Cave (Al-Kahf), narrates the miraculous story of those Christian saints in details.





Welcome Theophilos!
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« Reply #28 on: October 02, 2008, 05:53:47 PM »


There are many things in Islam which are not in the Qu'ran, but have been added later.
Such as the Hadith which is used in part to interpret the meaning of the Qur'an.  The two main branches of Islam, Shi'at ul Ali (Shi'a) and the Sunni, have different hadith in which they consult.  I'm not as well versed in Sunni Islam, but I believe the method they use to interpret the Qur'an is called Asbab al nazul, which identifies the reason each verse was given so as to put it in context for future understanding. 

For instance, the idea of suicide bombs are nowhere in Islam, but it has been interpreted over the years that to die thus makes one a martyr, which is a key theme of the Qu'ran.
Martyrdom is honored in many of the sects of Islam, esp in Shi'a Islam (the state religion of Iran for example).  And although the way to martyrdom is drastically different in Orthodoxy, it is highly honored with us as well.   The wahhabist interpretation of Sunni Islam is fairly new, having it's origins in the 19th cent by Muhammad al Wahhab in what is now, I understand, in Sa'udi Arabia.

Other sects such as the Druze, Alawi, Sufi, Isma'ili, and Twelvers, as well as Islam as it's understood in Central Asia and the Caucus is even more unique and generally devoid of such radical ideology.

Going back to the early years of Islam, when Muhammad was alive, it's been noted by various Orthodox saints as a Christian sect.  Of coarse, what we see today on the evening news is something radically different.

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« Reply #29 on: October 03, 2008, 08:47:16 AM »

Welcome Theophilos!

Thanks Gabriel Smiley

The reverence paid to the Virgin throughout the Koran illustrates the influence Orthodox Christianity had on Islam. In several verses the authors of the Koran feel themselves obliged to praise Mary whenever they refer to Jesus. It is by no means a coincidence that the Koran lay emphasis on the Virgin's chastity and adapt some of the narratives in the apocryphal Gospels to the Islamic teaching with the help of a few textual modifications on the original texts. The long narrative relating Panaghia's birth and dedication to the Temple occurs in the third Surah of the Koran, and is apparently adopted from the Gospel of James.






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« Reply #30 on: October 03, 2008, 11:45:04 AM »

Welcome Theophilos!

Thanks Gabriel Smiley

The reverence paid to the Virgin throughout the Koran illustrates the influence Orthodox Christianity had on Islam. In several verses the authors of the Koran feel themselves obliged to praise Mary whenever they refer to Jesus. It is by no means a coincidence that the Koran lay emphasis on the Virgin's chastity and adapt some of the narratives in the apocryphal Gospels to the Islamic teaching with the help of a few textual modifications on the original texts. The long narrative relating Panaghia's birth and dedication to the Temple occurs in the third Surah of the Koran, and is apparently adopted from the Gospel of James.


This reminds me of my Grandmother who loved the Virgin Theotokos so much that she would say something like "the Muslims are more Christian and worth more praise than those disrespectful and godawful Protestants."  She could not imagine a Christianity without praise and respect to the Theotokos, as opposed to the polemical idea that some Protestants believe she's a mere tool of God.

Even in the case of the miracle of the Virgin's appearance at a Coptic church in Zeitoun, the Islamic-dominated government also paid respects to the authenticity of the miracle.

God bless.
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« Reply #31 on: October 04, 2008, 04:32:33 PM »

This reminds me of my Grandmother who loved the Virgin Theotokos so much that she would say something like "the Muslims are more Christian and worth more praise than those disrespectful and godawful Protestants."  She could not imagine a Christianity without praise and respect to the Theotokos, as opposed to the polemical idea that some Protestants believe she's a mere tool of God.

Even in the case of the miracle of the Virgin's appearance at a Coptic church in Zeitoun, the Islamic-dominated government also paid respects to the authenticity of the miracle.

God bless.

Cheesy

Protestants have lots of things to learn from Muslims about Panaghia. It is ironic that the members of a non-Christian religion venerate Panaghia more than Jesus' true followers. I hope the Reformists will be aware of their mistakes.

Blessings to you!


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« Reply #32 on: October 04, 2008, 11:44:42 PM »

This reminds me of my Grandmother who loved the Virgin Theotokos so much that she would say something like "the Muslims are more Christian and worth more praise than those disrespectful and godawful Protestants."  She could not imagine a Christianity without praise and respect to the Theotokos, as opposed to the polemical idea that some Protestants believe she's a mere tool of God.

Even in the case of the miracle of the Virgin's appearance at a Coptic church in Zeitoun, the Islamic-dominated government also paid respects to the authenticity of the miracle.

God bless.

Cheesy

Protestants have lots of things to learn from Muslims about Panaghia. It is ironic that the members of a non-Christian religion venerate Panaghia more than Jesus' true followers. I hope the Reformists will be aware of their mistakes.

Blessings to you!

And blessings to you too.  Welcome to the forum Smiley
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« Reply #33 on: October 08, 2008, 08:55:11 AM »

There is an interesting article in this month's issue of "The Word" magazine on the Antiochian Orthodox Church website located at
www.antiochian.org/sites/antiochian.org/files/OCTOBER%20%202008%20WORD.pdf.pdf   It was presented to the annual clergy meeting at Ligoner Pa.

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« Reply #34 on: May 05, 2009, 11:40:25 PM »

Post moved from If you want to help a christian that losing his faith then please help me, since the subject of this post struck me as largely irrelevant to the topic presented on that thread...  Good post, though.  Thanks for the info. Wink  -PeterTheAleut


According to Koran and Muslim Sunnah: Allah is not Love, has no humility, proude and isn't holy, he is cunning fellow (see Koran 86.16) who «deceives» (Koran 4.141), source of evil, doesn't want for all people to be saved (32:13) created some people especialy for hell (7.179). aLLAH jeerS at some people leading them astray (2.14; 7.178, 186)...

Compare it with our Holy Bible, the real Afflatus of real Living God:
"God is love, and whoever remains in love remains in God, and God remains in him" (1 John 4:15)   "God our Savior who desires all people to be saved and to come to the full knowledge of the truth." (1Tim.2:4)
"Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways ( Ezekiel 33:11)

Here you can find some great Orthodox articles against Muslim false doctrine (in English, Russian and Bulgurian) - http://pravoslavie-i-islam.ru/indexeng.htm

Such as: "Holy Fathers about Islam", "Articles of Contemporary Orthodox Authors", "Orthodox Mission in Muslim World", "Works of non-orthodox Missionaries", "Testimonies of Muslims, who became Christians", "Materials about History of Islam" etc.
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« Reply #35 on: May 06, 2009, 08:20:55 AM »

Also see http://www.denver.goarch.org/biography/influence_of_islam.html
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« Reply #36 on: May 06, 2009, 11:55:31 AM »

One of the major impacts Islam had on Orthodoxy, within the Ottoman Empire, was the division of their subject peoples into millets, according to religion with no regard to race, language or geography. All Orthodox were in the Greek millet. This had a massive impact on fusing Orthodoxy and nationalism, as the Serbian Orthodox church strove to maintain its life, language and culture against Greek hellenising pressure, thus fusing the Serbian Orthodox church and Serbian nationalism in Serbia's struggle against Greek religious and Turkish political dominion, and as the Greek Orthodox church strove for Greek independence from Turkey, thus advancing the idea that Greek=Orthodox=Greek. Nationalism became so intertwined with religion that it persists today, so that a crippling and unseemly feature of Orthodoxy in the Balkans is its close entanglement with politics. Greece would like to annex southern Albania - which they call Northern Epirus (having already acquired Çamëria); Serbia tried to 'cleanse' Kosova of Islam with a view to re-settling displaced Serbs there and creating a pure Orthodox region.

This is deeply regrettable, for there is much in Orthodoxy that is attractive and of potential benefit in enriching the wider Body of Christ, but the Church in those places makes itself seen to its outsiders as largely an implement in the control of Greek or Serbian expansionism, lacking the appeal of that grace and humility which we see in our Lord's invitations to sinful men and women to come to him and never be cast out.
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« Reply #37 on: May 06, 2009, 12:14:31 PM »

Check out this clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u84S0JcgoIk
It briefly mentions how Islam adopted prostrations from Christianity...

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Any other parts of this?

I notice how he says that during the rise in persecution, the number of monks has gone from 10 to over a 100.  The world just doesn't get it.

Here is the entire episode of the clip posted above: http://orthodoxfathers.org/?p=261
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« Reply #38 on: May 06, 2009, 02:08:49 PM »

This reminds me of my Grandmother who loved the Virgin Theotokos so much that she would say something like "the Muslims are more Christian and worth more praise than those disrespectful and godawful Protestants."  She could not imagine a Christianity without praise and respect to the Theotokos, as opposed to the polemical idea that some Protestants believe she's a mere tool of God.

Even in the case of the miracle of the Virgin's appearance at a Coptic church in Zeitoun, the Islamic-dominated government also paid respects to the authenticity of the miracle.

God bless.

Cheesy

Protestants have lots of things to learn from Muslims about Panaghia. It is ironic that the members of a non-Christian religion venerate Panaghia more than Jesus' true followers. I hope the Reformists will be aware of their mistakes.

Blessings to you!




"Protestants=Jesus' true followers"Huh Angry
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« Reply #39 on: May 06, 2009, 02:25:49 PM »

Otomans venerat Mary ? Cool ! I have a sympathy for all the peoples of the world and cultures . By the way how is it with that Miracle of Panaghia in Syria of the young Saudi Arabian muslim ? Answer me in one of the Marian threads . Peace ! I sense a good vibe from Turkey .
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« Reply #40 on: May 06, 2009, 04:26:39 PM »


"Protestants=Jesus' true followers"Huh Angry

NO Smiley

I meant Christians when I said "Jesus' true followers" in contrast to Muslims (non-Christians)
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« Reply #41 on: October 30, 2011, 12:46:03 PM »

I hate to bump such an old thread, but does anybody have any more information on this subject? I am wanting to do a series on my blog that shows how Orthodoxy influenced Mohammed while he was inventing Islam. I would greatly appreciate any sources any one might have, as well as personal experiences from those who converted from Islam to Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #42 on: October 30, 2011, 10:50:14 PM »

I hate to bump such an old thread, but does anybody have any more information on this subject? I am wanting to do a series on my blog that shows how Orthodoxy influenced Mohammed while he was inventing Islam. I would greatly appreciate any sources any one might have, as well as personal experiences from those who converted from Islam to Orthodoxy.

Well, I'm not sure it was Orthodoxy.  It's widely believed that it was Nestorian Christianity that influenced Mohammed.
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« Reply #43 on: October 31, 2011, 08:58:18 PM »

http://www.amazon.com/Encounter-Eastern-Christianity-Early-Islam/dp/9004149384/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1320108941&sr=8-3

There's an essay in this book that discusses the usage of, if I'm remembering correctly, Ethiopian words for Biblical persons by early Muslims/Muhammad. This book in general is good for such a topic, check it out if you can.
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« Reply #44 on: November 01, 2011, 12:12:00 AM »

I hate to bump such an old thread, but does anybody have any more information on this subject? I am wanting to do a series on my blog that shows how Orthodoxy influenced Mohammed while he was inventing Islam. I would greatly appreciate any sources any one might have, as well as personal experiences from those who converted from Islam to Orthodoxy.

Well, I'm not sure it was Orthodoxy.  It's widely believed that it was Nestorian Christianity that influenced Mohammed.

Well I was thinking more along the lines of certain things - like the prostrations, praying x amount of times a day, chanting, and possibly architecture - more so than I was thinking theology.

http://www.amazon.com/Encounter-Eastern-Christianity-Early-Islam/dp/9004149384/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1320108941&sr=8-3

There's an essay in this book that discusses the usage of, if I'm remembering correctly, Ethiopian words for Biblical persons by early Muslims/Muhammad. This book in general is good for such a topic, check it out if you can.

Thank you, I will try to check out the book when my time permits. If any one had links to anything I could actually read on the web that would be great; given my current location (a base in Iraq that is about to be closed to US military) it would be far easier, though I may just have to wait until I return home before I start serious research on this subject.
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« Reply #45 on: November 01, 2011, 01:09:47 AM »

Related to Nephi's recommendation, you can find in Arthur Jeffrey's "The Foreign Vocabulary of the Quran" (1938; reprinted 2009 by Gorgia's Press)...well, just like the title says: an in-depth study of the foreign vocabulary of the Qur'an. Even at that time, when western scholarship on Islam was not as constrained by political correctness, Jeffery notes that to do research as he has done in compiling the text is to fly in the face of Islamic orthodoxy, though not as it has always been (he highlights the many times when Islamic scholars were at a loss to explain the source of a word that is clearly Hebrew/Syriac/Ge'ez, and even some ones you might not expect like Norse, Slavonic, and Ossetian). This makes it a work of great historical relevance, and somehow unique in the canon of Western scholarship on Islam. The closest thing I've seen in this vein after Jeffrey would be perhaps Ferguson's 1959 work on diglossia in Arabic, as it openly disproved the claims of "pure Qur'anic Arabic" by documenting the influence of the local/national varieties of Arabic on the Qur'anic recitations recorded in various locations throughout the Islamic world.
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« Reply #46 on: November 01, 2011, 04:32:33 AM »

Related to Nephi's recommendation, you can find in Arthur Jeffrey's "The Foreign Vocabulary of the Quran" (1938; reprinted 2009 by Gorgia's Press)...well, just like the title says: an in-depth study of the foreign vocabulary of the Qur'an. Even at that time, when western scholarship on Islam was not as constrained by political correctness, Jeffery notes that to do research as he has done in compiling the text is to fly in the face of Islamic orthodoxy, though not as it has always been (he highlights the many times when Islamic scholars were at a loss to explain the source of a word that is clearly Hebrew/Syriac/Ge'ez, and even some ones you might not expect like Norse, Slavonic, and Ossetian). This makes it a work of great historical relevance, and somehow unique in the canon of Western scholarship on Islam. The closest thing I've seen in this vein after Jeffrey would be perhaps Ferguson's 1959 work on diglossia in Arabic, as it openly disproved the claims of "pure Qur'anic Arabic" by documenting the influence of the local/national varieties of Arabic on the Qur'anic recitations recorded in various locations throughout the Islamic world.

Very interesting, thank you, I'll have to check out those sources later.
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« Reply #47 on: November 01, 2011, 05:54:16 AM »

Have you tried searching articles @ www.answering-islam.org ?
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« Reply #48 on: November 01, 2011, 10:13:54 AM »

Have you tried searching articles @ www.answering-islam.org ?

I have, but I have not found quite what I am looking for there.
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« Reply #49 on: November 01, 2011, 10:40:51 AM »

What kind of information are you looking for? Apart from a few traditional teachings and some linguistic influence (through the Septuagint), Orthodoxy had no influence on Islam.
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« Reply #50 on: November 01, 2011, 11:20:17 AM »

Just some sources that show where Islam got certain things from the Orthodox Church, possibly Patristic or other notable sources.
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« Reply #51 on: November 01, 2011, 11:23:42 AM »

I hate to bump such an old thread, but does anybody have any more information on this subject? I am wanting to do a series on my blog that shows how Orthodoxy influenced Mohammed while he was inventing Islam. I would greatly appreciate any sources any one might have, as well as personal experiences from those who converted from Islam to Orthodoxy.

Well, I'm not sure it was Orthodoxy.  It's widely believed that it was Nestorian Christianity that influenced Mohammed.

Well I was thinking more along the lines of certain things - like the prostrations, praying x amount of times a day, chanting, and possibly architecture - more so than I was thinking theology.
There might be some gems here.
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« Reply #52 on: November 01, 2011, 11:40:35 AM »

I hate to bump such an old thread, but does anybody have any more information on this subject? I am wanting to do a series on my blog that shows how Orthodoxy influenced Mohammed while he was inventing Islam. I would greatly appreciate any sources any one might have, as well as personal experiences from those who converted from Islam to Orthodoxy.

Well, I'm not sure it was Orthodoxy.  It's widely believed that it was Nestorian Christianity that influenced Mohammed.

Well I was thinking more along the lines of certain things - like the prostrations, praying x amount of times a day, chanting, and possibly architecture - more so than I was thinking theology.
There might be some gems here.

That looks very interesting, and I can get it for my Kobo as well. I'll definitely check that out when my finances permit, thank you.
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« Reply #53 on: November 01, 2011, 12:54:53 PM »

I hate to bump such an old thread, but does anybody have any more information on this subject? I am wanting to do a series on my blog that shows how Orthodoxy influenced Mohammed while he was inventing Islam. I would greatly appreciate any sources any one might have, as well as personal experiences from those who converted from Islam to Orthodoxy.

Well, I'm not sure it was Orthodoxy.  It's widely believed that it was Nestorian Christianity that influenced Mohammed.

Well I was thinking more along the lines of certain things - like the prostrations, praying x amount of times a day, chanting, and possibly architecture - more so than I was thinking theology.
There might be some gems here.

The reader must keep in mind that Sufism is something of a minority of Muslims, whether it be Shia or Sunni.  It's perceived as "weak" and "irrationally peaceful."  If all Muslims were Sufi, there would be no problems in the Middle East.  But yes, Sufism specifically is a direct influence from Eastern Christianity.
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« Reply #54 on: November 01, 2011, 01:11:00 PM »

I hate to bump such an old thread, but does anybody have any more information on this subject? I am wanting to do a series on my blog that shows how Orthodoxy influenced Mohammed while he was inventing Islam. I would greatly appreciate any sources any one might have, as well as personal experiences from those who converted from Islam to Orthodoxy.

Well, I'm not sure it was Orthodoxy.  It's widely believed that it was Nestorian Christianity that influenced Mohammed.

Well I was thinking more along the lines of certain things - like the prostrations, praying x amount of times a day, chanting, and possibly architecture - more so than I was thinking theology.
There might be some gems here.

The reader must keep in mind that Sufism is something of a minority of Muslims, whether it be Shia or Sunni.  It's perceived as "weak" and "irrationally peaceful."  If all Muslims were Sufi, there would be no problems in the Middle East.  But yes, Sufism specifically is a direct influence from Eastern Christianity.

Good to know, I will keep that in mind when I read the book.
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« Reply #55 on: November 01, 2011, 01:28:54 PM »

The reader must keep in mind that Sufism is something of a minority of Muslims, whether it be Shia or Sunni.  It's perceived as "weak" and "irrationally peaceful."  If all Muslims were Sufi, there would be no problems in the Middle East.  But yes, Sufism specifically is a direct influence from Eastern Christianity.

I'm really not so sure about the highlighted sentence, Mina. As even mainstream U.S. media outlets recognize, Sufis have historically been very much involved in the violent expansion of Islam, and provide in their own way a defense and wellspring of Islamic violence even today (Sufi orders are big in places like Chechnya and Somalia, remember). They seem peaceful by comparison to their less mystically-oriented compatriots in Islam, but they are not by virtue of their Sufism less violent in practice.
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« Reply #56 on: November 01, 2011, 01:35:06 PM »

The reader must keep in mind that Sufism is something of a minority of Muslims, whether it be Shia or Sunni.  It's perceived as "weak" and "irrationally peaceful."  If all Muslims were Sufi, there would be no problems in the Middle East.  But yes, Sufism specifically is a direct influence from Eastern Christianity.

I'm really not so sure about the highlighted sentence, Mina. As even mainstream U.S. media outlets recognize, Sufis have historical been very much involved in the violent expansion of Islam, and provide in their own way a defense and wellspring of Islamic violence even today (Sufi orders are big in places like Chechnya and Somalia, remember). They seem peaceful by comparison to their less mystically-oriented compatriots in Islam, but they are not by virtue of their Sufism less violent in practice.

In my experience, Sufis have been one of those "love thy enemies" and "your religion is just as good as mine" type of Muslims.

My father's accountant I believe is a Sufi, who my father loves very much concerning his very peaceful demeanor.  People mistake him for a Copt.
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« Reply #57 on: November 01, 2011, 01:40:13 PM »

Yeah, that has been my experience, too. My point is that this seems more situational/circumstantial than some sort of fundamental attitude or approach of Sufism as a whole to other religions or the people who practice them.

Wasn't it the famous Sufi poet Rumi who wrote "I looked for God among the Christians, but did not find Him there"? That, rather than any nice words from your or my Sufi friends, is at the root of all understandings of other religions displayed by any approach to Islam, and in the "right" circumstances, this portends violence for all of us.
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« Reply #58 on: November 01, 2011, 02:00:51 PM »

Yeah, that has been my experience, too. My point is that this seems more situational/circumstantial than some sort of fundamental attitude or approach of Sufism as a whole to other religions or the people who practice them.

Wasn't it the famous Sufi poet Rumi who wrote "I looked for God among the Christians, but did not find Him there"? That, rather than any nice words from your or my Sufi friends, is at the root of all understandings of other religions displayed by any approach to Islam, and in the "right" circumstances, this portends violence for all of us.

Rumi was critiquing the idea that God is somehow exclusively "out there"; he wasn't picking on Christianity in particular -- he criticized aspects of Islamic practice as well. I think this is the full quote:

I searched for God among the Christians and on the Cross and therein I found Him not.
I went into the ancient temples of idolatry; no trace of Him was there.
I entered the mountain cave of Hira and then went as far as Qandhar but God I found not.
With set purpose I fared to the summit of Mount Caucasus and found there only 'anqa's habitation.
Then I directed my search to the Kaaba, the resort of old and young; God was not there even.
Turning to philosophy I inquired about him from ibn Sina but found Him not within his range.
I fared then to the scene of the Prophet's experience of a great divine manifestation only a "two bow-lengths' distance from him" but God was not there even in that exalted court.
Finally, I looked into my own heart and there I saw Him; He was nowhere else.
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In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
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« Reply #59 on: November 01, 2011, 07:51:58 PM »

I am aware of that. The point is that Sufis, for all their usual niceness, reject God not any less than other Muslims, and would likewise condemn our God, the true God, not any less than the 'non-mystical' Muslims do. And this is what makes all of Islam, Sufi and non, a kind of minefield resistant to the more broad generalization that I originally objected to. The fact that Sufis have in a sense philosophized, made "mystical" or better said dematerialized their objections and blasphemies does not mean that there is in practice any great difference between them and the "average" Muslim who has also participated in violence to spread or further entrench Islam historically or in our time. So one spins in a circle and chants for a while before taking up the sword. Forgive me if I remain unimpressed by this supposedly benign "mysticism".

But please forgive me, OP and others, for dragging this thread away from its intended purpose. I will not post again on the above matters. To make this post at least somewhat relevant, I see that Amazon has recommended to me (after I did an earlier search for Jeffrey's book, mentioned in my previous post) a book called "Byzantine Christianity and Islam: Historical and Pastoral Reflections", edited by Jack Figel. I've never read it or heard of it, but perhaps it is worth looking into.
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« Reply #60 on: June 27, 2013, 11:43:56 PM »

I know that this is an old thread. However, I found Thomas' article on pages 5-11 of The Word to be very interesting, and would like to hear people's reactions:
There is an interesting article in this month's issue of "The Word" magazine on the Antiochian Orthodox Church website located at
www.antiochian.org/sites/antiochian.org/files/OCTOBER%20%202008%20WORD.pdf.pdf   It was presented to the annual clergy meeting at Ligoner Pa.
The introduction says:
Quote
This article will show that, for centuries, perhaps a millennium, during which Islam dominated the area, conflict between Jews, Christians and Muslims was the exception, not the norm. The norm was peace, harmony, coexistence and cooperation among those of the three religions.

Since Islam does not see Him as divine, it was new to me to read:
Quote
Islam... accepts [Jesus'] virgin birth and his miracles...
sayings about Jesus found in the Koran and the Muslim popular literature... refer to him as a Muslim prophet, the Spirit of God or theWord of God

Is it noteworthy that there "was a seventh-century canon law permitting Christian priests to administer last rites to Muslims"?

It was also interesting that some Caliphs had Christian government ministers, called "wazirs". Furthermore, the article dealt with issues of persecution of Christians, which he said depended on the ruler.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2013, 11:53:28 PM by rakovsky » Logged
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« Reply #61 on: June 27, 2013, 11:53:04 PM »

Theophilos,

You brought up an interesting issue:
They view Christianity as something invented by the Apostles, so... they do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah.
Although Islam considers Jesus one of the Islamic messengers supposedly predicting the coming of Mohammad, it endorses the Christian tenets that Jesus was the only Messiah (with no definition of the word though!) and that Jesus' apostles became triumphant over Jesus' enemies.
The article Thomas cited above said that they do not accept Jesus' crucifixion or resurrection. One of the interesting results is that Islam doesn't seem to have a consistent teaching on the Old Testament Messianic passages about the Messiah being killed.

In researching those passages, I found a thoughtful Muslim author who proposed in-depth that Isaiah 53 was about Jesus' suffering, but that he parsed the prophecy's words to avoid taking it to mean the Messiah would die as a result of the suffering.

Yet another long, thoughtful article followed what is today a frequent rabbinical view that the Servant in that prophecy is the Israelite people.
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« Reply #62 on: June 28, 2013, 12:12:48 AM »

Quote
This article will show that, for centuries, perhaps a millennium, during which Islam dominated the area, conflict between Jews, Christians and Muslims was the exception, not the norm. The norm was peace, harmony, coexistence and cooperation among those of the three religions.

While I'm likely to concede that peace (defined as stability) was the norm, "harmony, coexistence and cooperation" were too?

Quote
Muhammad II installed a new Patriarch, Gennadius, and invested him with more authority than a patriarch had exercised under the Byzantines. The Patriarch and his Holy Synod settled doctrinal questions, disciplined members of the Church, managed church property and levied taxes on clergy and laity. Freedom of conscience and worship was guaranteed. The Patriarch exercised considerable civil authority over his community and was considered a government official with the rank of wazir. The sultan promised the Patriarch and 8 The Wordhis ecclesiastical hierarchy protection against fellow Christians, be they Roman Catholics or Serbian Orthodox rivals.

So he's saying the Ottomans were effectively best friends with the Patriarchate of Constantinople? What about all of the money they had to pay to the state for the position, and the fact that many were forced to abdicate - sometimes the same Patriarch forcibly abdicated multiple times, candidates vetted by the state, etc.? From the little I've seen, his description of the Orthodox Church under the Ottomans is "exaggerated" at best.

It seems like scholars and religious leaders out of Syria and other places of modern conflict want to have a peaceful history in order to ease tensions; "See - we used to be so peaceful! Can't it be like that again?"
« Last Edit: June 28, 2013, 12:13:33 AM by Nephi » Logged
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« Reply #63 on: June 28, 2013, 01:15:42 AM »

Gabriel,

It was surprising for me when you wrote that the Kaaba contains an icon:
The story goes that he sought refuge in Ethiopia where the Christian King took him in and helped him.  There Muhammad learned much about Christianity.  Later on, when he returned to Mecca victorious, he smashed all the idols in the Ka'baa except one- an icon of the Theotokos holding the Christ-child.  It's reported to still be there.
I am curious where you heard it reported that the icon of the Theotokos was still there?

The Answering Islam website mentions opposing answers by earlier and later traditions about whether the icons were destroyed along with the idols:
Quote
"Apart from the icon of the Virgin Mary and the child Jesus, and a painting of an old man, said to be Abraham, the walls inside [Kaaba] had been covered with pictures of pagan deities. Placing his hand protectively over the icon, the Prophet told `Uthman to see that all other paintings, except that of Abraham, were effaced." (Martin Lings, "Muhammad: His Life Based on the Earliest Sources",  ref: al-Waqidi, Kitab al-Maghazi 834, and Azraqi, Akhbar Makkah)

"On the day of the conquest of Mecca the Prophet entered the House (= the Kaaba) and sent al-Fadl ibn al-Abbas ibn Abdalmuttalib to get water from the well of Zemzem. He ordered to bring pieces of cloth and to imbue them with water and then he commanded to wash off these pictures, as it was done. He stretched his arms, however, over the picture of Jesus, the son of Mary, and of his mother and said: 'Wash off all except what is under my hands!' But eventually he took away his hands away from Jesus, the son of Mary, and his mother." (al-Azraqi)
http://www.answering-islam.org/Index/K/kabah.html

My guess is that he didn't destroy the icons, considering that especially in such an early period of Islam there was alot of respect for Christianity, while his main target was paganism. Further, the destruction of the pagan idols would have been an act that would find sympathy among Christians.

Currently it appears that there are no such icons in the Kaaba, although it looks like there is a golden cross design on a white cube, which I am curious about:


It's at 0:24-27 in the video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVfXXn0eTJ0
If you watch it, you will also notice lamps suspended from the ceiling like we see in Byzantine-era churches in the Holy Land.

Peace.
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« Reply #64 on: June 28, 2013, 01:28:55 AM »

Quote
Muhammad II installed a new Patriarch, Gennadius, and invested him with more authority than a patriarch had exercised under the Byzantines. The Patriarch and his Holy Synod settled doctrinal questions, disciplined members of the Church, managed church property and levied taxes on clergy and laity. Freedom of conscience and worship was guaranteed. The Patriarch exercised considerable civil authority over his community and was considered a government official with the rank of wazir. The sultan promised the Patriarch and 8 The Wordhis ecclesiastical hierarchy protection against fellow Christians, be they Roman Catholics or Serbian Orthodox rivals.

So he's saying the Ottomans were effectively best friends with the Patriarchate of Constantinople? What about all of the money they had to pay to the state for the position, and the fact that many were forced to abdicate - sometimes the same Patriarch forcibly abdicated multiple times, candidates vetted by the state, etc.? From the little I've seen, his description of the Orthodox Church under the Ottomans is "exaggerated" at best.

It seems like scholars and religious leaders out of Syria and other places of modern conflict want to have a peaceful history in order to ease tensions; "See - we used to be so peaceful! Can't it be like that again?"
Nephi,

His following page discusses persecution.

I had a somewhat similar reaction when I read the article, and you are making a good point. Something could also be said about the intense political pressure that the Ottomans placed on the Patriarch. I believe that there was a tolerant side and an intolerant side. It's important to appreciate both, and he brought out some remarkable points nonetheless. Obviously, if it had been all peachy, the nationalist revolutionaries would not have been so strong. On the other hand, if it was fully intolerant, it might have incurred even greater resistance, rather than the surrender of whole regions.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2013, 01:29:49 AM by rakovsky » Logged
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« Reply #65 on: June 28, 2013, 01:41:41 AM »

Gabriel,

It was surprising for me when you wrote that the Kaaba contains an icon:
The story goes that he sought refuge in Ethiopia where the Christian King took him in and helped him.  There Muhammad learned much about Christianity.  Later on, when he returned to Mecca victorious, he smashed all the idols in the Ka'baa except one- an icon of the Theotokos holding the Christ-child.  It's reported to still be there.
I am curious where you heard it reported that the icon of the Theotokos was still there?

The Answering Islam website mentions opposing answers by earlier and later traditions about whether the icons were destroyed along with the idols:
Quote
"Apart from the icon of the Virgin Mary and the child Jesus, and a painting of an old man, said to be Abraham, the walls inside [Kaaba] had been covered with pictures of pagan deities. Placing his hand protectively over the icon, the Prophet told `Uthman to see that all other paintings, except that of Abraham, were effaced." (Martin Lings, "Muhammad: His Life Based on the Earliest Sources",  ref: al-Waqidi, Kitab al-Maghazi 834, and Azraqi, Akhbar Makkah)

"On the day of the conquest of Mecca the Prophet entered the House (= the Kaaba) and sent al-Fadl ibn al-Abbas ibn Abdalmuttalib to get water from the well of Zemzem. He ordered to bring pieces of cloth and to imbue them with water and then he commanded to wash off these pictures, as it was done. He stretched his arms, however, over the picture of Jesus, the son of Mary, and of his mother and said: 'Wash off all except what is under my hands!' But eventually he took away his hands away from Jesus, the son of Mary, and his mother." (al-Azraqi)
http://www.answering-islam.org/Index/K/kabah.html

My guess is that he didn't destroy the icons, considering that especially in such an early period of Islam there was alot of respect for Christianity, while his main target was paganism. Further, the destruction of the pagan idols would have been an act that would find sympathy among Christians.

Currently it appears that there are no such icons in the Kaaba, although it looks like there is a golden cross design on a white cube, which I am curious about:


It's at 0:24-27 in the video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVfXXn0eTJ0
If you watch it, you will also notice lamps suspended from the ceiling like we see in Byzantine-era churches in the Holy Land.

Peace.

From Archimandrite Daniel of Indonesia's discussion with "Road to Emmaus":
http://www.roadtoemmaus.net/back_issue_articles/RTE_11/The_Kaaba_and_Jacobs_Pillow.pdf

"RTE:Is the Kaaba solid or hollow inside?
FR. DANIEL: Hollow, it is like a house. There is a door through which you can
enter. Any pilgrim can go in if he is allowed to by the authorities. There is
nothing inside, it is empty. In the 17th century, interestingly, there were
reports that there were some icons inside, and I recently heard a secondhand report that the icons are still there.
RTE: Icons! Why are there icons in the holiest structure in Islam? Islam is
iconoclastic.
FR. DANIEL: Before the rise of Islam, the pagan Arabs had a great yearly
bazaar, called the “Bazaar of Al-Ukaz.” People from all over Arabia and nearby countries would come to celebrate around the Kaaba. They did this to
honor the gods of the Kaaba, because the Kaaba housed many idols, the foremost of which was the god Hubal. (Also famous among them were the socalled “daughters” of Allah, namely: Al-Lat, Al-Mannat, Al-Uzza, although
Muhammad denied vigorously that Allah had any daughter or son.)
This celebration in Mecca drew not only pagans, but also middle-eastern
Christian monks, bishops and evangelists. One of the greatest events was
the famous Arabic “poetry” competition, and many of these Christians composed Christian poems to compete with the pagans. They also used this
occasion to preach the Gospel to the Arabs. In their competitions with the
pagans, who had statues of idols, the Christians displayed icons of the Lord
and the Mother of God, hoping that the pagans would become interested in
Christianity. These were all in the Kaaba.
When Muhammad conquered Mecca without bloodshed, he commanded
that all the idols be destroyed and the Kaaba dedicated to “Allah” alone.
During the rampage of destruction, Muhammad saw his troops about to
smash the icons, but he stopped them, putting himself between the
upraised arms of his followers and the icons. He forbade their destruction,
saying that these two icons must not be destroyed because they are pictures
of God’s prophet and his mother. So they were saved from destruction. As I
said, there are reports that the icons are still there in the Kaaba, but I have
never seen them personally. This is as much as I know."
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