Author Topic: People come to chruch late and leave early?  (Read 3722 times)

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Offline johnmac

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People come to chruch late and leave early?
« on: September 14, 2008, 02:59:59 PM »
Hello,

I recently went to a Greek Orthodox Chruch for liturgy. As a Eastern Catholic I found it very interesting.
Couple quesitons:

1: Who detemines what is said in english and/or greek.

2: Did notice that about 3/4 of the people came to church more than a hour late and then left after communion. I have gone to any Roman Catholic Churches where people do come 15 minutes late, but not an hour. I did not know what to make of it. I have also attened some OCA parishes and have not seen that there.

Thanks,

Offline stashko

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Re: People come to chruch late and leave early?
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2008, 03:16:19 PM »
Hello,

I recently went to a Greek Orthodox Chruch for liturgy. As a Eastern Catholic I found it very interesting.
Couple quesitons:

1: Who detemines what is said in english and/or greek.

2: Did notice that about 3/4 of the people came to church more than a hour late and then left after communion. I have gone to any Roman Catholic Churches where people do come 15 minutes late, but not an hour. I did not know what to make of it. I have also attened some OCA parishes and have not seen that there.

Thanks,

Hey! i went to a eastern catholic ukrainian church in chicago ..while the liturgy was being served .people were out in front smoking ,,so what is you point...SmileyCentral.com" border="0
« Last Edit: September 14, 2008, 03:56:54 PM by stashko »
ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.

Offline Entscheidungsproblem

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Re: People come to chruch late and leave early?
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2008, 03:19:51 PM »
Hello,

I recently went to a Greek Orthodox Chruch for liturgy. As a Eastern Catholic I found it very interesting.
Couple quesitons:

1: Who detemines what is said in english and/or greek.

2: Did notice that about 3/4 of the people came to church more than a hour late and then left after communion. I have gone to any Roman Catholic Churches where people do come 15 minutes late, but not an hour. I did not know what to make of it. I have also attened some OCA parishes and have not seen that there.

Thanks,

Hey i went to a eastern catholic ukrainian church in chicago ..while the liturgy was being served .people were out in front smoking ,,so what is you point...SmileyCentral.com" border="0

He was asking an innocent question to something that struck him as odd.  There was no reason for you to respond in such a vindictive manner.

Welcome to the forum, johnmac!
As a result of a thousand million years of evolution, the universe is becoming conscious of itself, able to understand something of its past history and its possible future.
-- Sir Julian Sorell Huxley FRS

Offline stashko

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Re: People come to chruch late and leave early?
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2008, 03:23:01 PM »
Hello,

I recently went to a Greek Orthodox Chruch for liturgy. As a Eastern Catholic I found it very interesting.
Couple quesitons:

1: Who detemines what is said in english and/or greek.

2: Did notice that about 3/4 of the people came to church more than a hour late and then left after communion. I have gone to any Roman Catholic Churches where people do come 15 minutes late, but not an hour. I did not know what to make of it. I have also attened some OCA parishes and have not seen that there.

Thanks,

Hey i went to a eastern catholic ukrainian church in chicago ..while the liturgy was being served .people were out in front smoking ,,so what is you point...SmileyCentral.com" border="0

He was asking an innocent question to something that struck him as odd.  There was no reason for you to respond in such a vindictive manner.

Welcome to the forum, johnmac!


Why would it strike him as odd ,,they do the same thing in the eastern catholic churches as well...SmileyCentral.com" border="0
ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.

Offline Veniamin

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Re: People come to chruch late and leave early?
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2008, 03:28:33 PM »
Hello,

I recently went to a Greek Orthodox Chruch for liturgy. As a Eastern Catholic I found it very interesting.
Couple quesitons:

1: Who detemines what is said in english and/or greek.

2: Did notice that about 3/4 of the people came to church more than a hour late and then left after communion. I have gone to any Roman Catholic Churches where people do come 15 minutes late, but not an hour. I did not know what to make of it. I have also attened some OCA parishes and have not seen that there.

Thanks,

Hey i went to a eastern catholic ukrainian church in chicago ..while the liturgy was being served .people were out in front smoking ,,so what is you point...SmileyCentral.com" border="0

He was asking an innocent question to something that struck him as odd.  There was no reason for you to respond in such a vindictive manner.

Welcome to the forum, johnmac!


Why would it strike him as odd ,,they do the same thing in the eastern catholic churches as well...SmileyCentral.com" border="0

He may very well have never encountered that before.  Just because you see something wrong at one parish doesn't mean it happens everywhere.

And as an aside, if you're going to put a cross at the end of your post, you might want to think about whether what you just wrote is fit for it.
Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl. ~Frederick the Great

Offline stashko

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Re: People come to chruch late and leave early?
« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2008, 03:33:59 PM »
Hello,

I recently went to a Greek Orthodox Chruch for liturgy. As a Eastern Catholic I found it very interesting.
Couple quesitons:

1: Who detemines what is said in english and/or greek.

2: Did notice that about 3/4 of the people came to church more than a hour late and then left after communion. I have gone to any Roman Catholic Churches where people do come 15 minutes late, but not an hour. I did not know what to make of it. I have also attened some OCA parishes and have not seen that there.

Thanks,

Hey i went to a eastern catholic ukrainian church in chicago ..while the liturgy was being served .people were out in front smoking ,,so what is you point...SmileyCentral.com" border="0

He was asking an innocent question to something that struck him as odd.  There was no reason for you to respond in such a vindictive manner.

Welcome to the forum, johnmac!


Why would it strike him as odd ,,they do the same thing in the eastern catholic churches as well...SmileyCentral.com" border="0

He may very well have never encountered that before.  Just because you see something wrong at one parish doesn't mean it happens everywhere.

And as an aside, if you're going to put a cross at the end of your post, you might want to think about whether what you just wrote is fit for it.


Great! then he should realize the same thing ,it may happen in a few churches but not all of them....SmileyCentral.com" border="0
« Last Edit: September 14, 2008, 03:58:20 PM by stashko »
ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.

Offline scamandrius

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Re: People come to chruch late and leave early?
« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2008, 03:34:19 PM »


2: Did notice that about 3/4 of the people came to church more than a hour late and then left after communion. I have gone to any Roman Catholic Churches where people do come 15 minutes late, but not an hour. I did not know what to make of it. I have also attened some OCA parishes and have not seen that there.

Thanks,

Johnmac,

Welcome to the forum.  The thing is not to make anything out of it.  People will do as they see fit when it comes to what time and how long they will stay for Divine Liturgy and it doesn't matter whether the jurisdiction is OCA, Greek, Antiochian, Romanian, Serbian, etc.  This kind of thing happens in EVERY jurisdiction. As disconcerting as it is, take care to worry about your own salvation and pray for those outside.  I know it's hard and it's very easy to just want to come out and say "what's wrong with you people."  Let them worry about their own salvation. You worry about yours.
Hey, I don't hand out 9.5s to just anyone!  ;D

Offline SolEX01

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Re: People come to chruch late and leave early?
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2008, 03:43:56 PM »
Welcome to the forum, johnmac, if I haven't done so earlier.   :)

During the Easter sermon of St. John Chrysostom, even if one arrives at the feast at the 11th Hour, he is to be welcomed to the feast like the person who arrived at the 1st Hour.

Now, most people who attend Easter Mass do not stick around to listen to the sermon at the end of the Divine Liturgy; However, through centuries of custom and tradition, they know that arriving at Church by the figurative 11th Hour will not result in sanction.

I have the same views as you regarding "drive-thru" Communion and I'm no better than most people at going to Church at time.  I wouldn't allow the lateness of others to affect worship, if it helps you in anyway.   :)

Offline johnmac

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Re: People come to chruch late and leave early?
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2008, 03:57:32 PM »
I just asked an honest questions and did not deserve to get blasted.
I am very aware that this happens at churches Catholic Orthodox Protestant ETC. I was asking if this was common occurance with the Greek Orthodox. If I never asked I would not know.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: People come to chruch late and leave early?
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2008, 05:24:23 PM »
I just asked an honest questions and did not deserve to get blasted.
No, you didn't deserve to get blasted for your honest and simple questions. ;)  And welcome to the forum. :)

Quote
I am very aware that this happens at churches Catholic Orthodox Protestant ETC. I was asking if this was common occurance with the Greek Orthodox. If I never asked I would not know.
Don't be afraid to ask questions here.  I just hope I can be of service in permitting you to ask such questions without undue flak from other posters.

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« Last Edit: September 14, 2008, 05:52:29 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline Paisius

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Re: People come to chruch late and leave early?
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2008, 05:25:36 PM »
I just asked an honest questions and did not deserve to get blasted.
I am very aware that this happens at churches Catholic Orthodox Protestant ETC. I was asking if this was common occurance with the Greek Orthodox. If I never asked I would not know.


It depends on the parish. Some develop the habit more than others. Although in my parish it's not that common it does happen. When people are really late it bothers me but I try not to let it get to me too much. I try to look at it as an opportunity to grow in patience and refraining from judgment (that can be quite a challenge).  ;)


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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: People come to chruch late and leave early?
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2008, 05:31:04 PM »
Hello,

I recently went to a Greek Orthodox Chruch for liturgy. As a Eastern Catholic I found it very interesting.
Couple quesitons:

1: Who detemines what is said in english and/or greek.

2: Did notice that about 3/4 of the people came to church more than a hour late and then left after communion. I have gone to any Roman Catholic Churches where people do come 15 minutes late, but not an hour. I did not know what to make of it. I have also attened some OCA parishes and have not seen that there.

Thanks,

Hey i went to a eastern catholic ukrainian church in chicago ..while the liturgy was being served .people were out in front smoking ,,so what is you point...SmileyCentral.com" border="0

He was asking an innocent question to something that struck him as odd.  There was no reason for you to respond in such a vindictive manner.

Welcome to the forum, johnmac!


Why would it strike him as odd ,,they do the same thing in the eastern catholic churches as well...SmileyCentral.com" border="0

He may very well have never encountered that before.  Just because you see something wrong at one parish doesn't mean it happens everywhere.

And as an aside, if you're going to put a cross at the end of your post, you might want to think about whether what you just wrote is fit for it.


Great! then he should realize the same thing ,it may happen in a few churches but not all of them....SmileyCentral.com" border="0
Johnmac has never made the sweeping generalizations you have, so you have no reason to accuse him of anything.  In other words, you need to stop scolding him.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2008, 05:34:30 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline ytterbiumanalyst

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Re: People come to chruch late and leave early?
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2008, 05:33:16 PM »
I just asked an honest questions and did not deserve to get blasted.
You are correct. Yours was a very honest and sincere question.

Quote
I am very aware that this happens at churches Catholic Orthodox Protestant ETC. I was asking if this was common occurance with the Greek Orthodox. If I never asked I would not know.
In my experience, our parish has begun to address this problem by denying communion that day to anyone who does not arrive by the time the Gospel is read (usually about thirty minutes into the Liturgy). Now, we have many people who arrive about thirty minutes late, but at least they are there for the Gospel, the sermon, and most of the hymns.

You are correct in that it is a problem everywhere. You can't make people more serious about their faith, but you can provide incentives.

Welcome to the forum. I hope you stick around.
"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: People come to chruch late and leave early?
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2008, 08:03:06 PM »
2: Did notice that about 3/4 of the people came to church more than a hour late and then left after communion. I have gone to any Roman Catholic Churches where people do come 15 minutes late, but not an hour. I did not know what to make of it. I have also attened some OCA parishes and have not seen that there.

Welcome johnmac!
I think that part of the reason for this is because Matins & Lauds traditionally immediately precede the Divine Liturgy in the Greek Orthodox Church, so that people who are only able to attend the Liturgy often don't know what time it starts since the advertised starting time for Services is the starting timer of Orthros (Matins). Another reason is the Communion of infants. As a Godfather six times over, I can tell you that trying to keep my Godchildren settled while holding their infant sibling in my arms can be a test of endurance even when both their parents are present. Kids have the attention span of a mosquito, and can be disruptive in services. So when Communing the Children, we tend to arrive just before the Lord's Prayer (or thereabouts) and leave after Communion and the benediction of the Communicants in order not to disrupt the Services.
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Offline Riddikulus

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Re: People come to chruch late and leave early?
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2008, 08:18:40 PM »


2: Did notice that about 3/4 of the people came to church more than a hour late and then left after communion. I have gone to any Roman Catholic Churches where people do come 15 minutes late, but not an hour. I did not know what to make of it. I have also attened some OCA parishes and have not seen that there.

Thanks,

Johnmac,

Welcome to the forum.  The thing is not to make anything out of it.  People will do as they see fit when it comes to what time and how long they will stay for Divine Liturgy and it doesn't matter whether the jurisdiction is OCA, Greek, Antiochian, Romanian, Serbian, etc.  This kind of thing happens in EVERY jurisdiction. As disconcerting as it is, take care to worry about your own salvation and pray for those outside.  I know it's hard and it's very easy to just want to come out and say "what's wrong with you people."  Let them worry about their own salvation. You worry about yours.

Welcome to the forum, Johnmac. I agree with scamandrius. What you speak of here is a problem, but don't let it become a problem to you. As tempting as it is to do otherwise, it is best to follow the example of the Publican rather than the Pharisee. ;D And don't worry about any of the flac you might receive here for asking an innocent question.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2008, 08:21:47 PM by Riddikulus »
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Offline stashko

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Re: People come to chruch late and leave early?
« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2008, 08:28:51 PM »
He goes to a Greek Orthodox church for Holy Liturgy..instead of keeping eyes to the front ,,his eyes are on the door in whose leaving and entering and taking note's,, mentions it here on this orthodox forum hummmm,,something smells fishy......SmileyCentral.com" border="0SmileyCentral.com" border="0
« Last Edit: September 14, 2008, 11:50:42 PM by stashko »
ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.

Offline ytterbiumanalyst

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Re: People come to chruch late and leave early?
« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2008, 08:30:54 PM »
^ The man on that cross you so proudly display said, "Those who are not against us are for us."
"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens

Offline stashko

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Re: People come to chruch late and leave early?
« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2008, 08:36:09 PM »
I went to a eastern catholic church ,they had assembly line liturgies one right after another..no veneration of the Holy Cross at the end or the Blessed Bread given out after the liturgy.......SmileyCentral.com" border="0
« Last Edit: September 14, 2008, 08:40:46 PM by stashko »
ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: People come to chruch late and leave early?
« Reply #18 on: September 14, 2008, 08:39:02 PM »
He goes to a Greek Orthodox church for Holy Liturgy..instead of keeping eyes to the front ,,his eyes are on the door in whose leaving and entering and taking note's,,
And why are you so concerned about what someone else does in church?
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Offline ytterbiumanalyst

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Re: People come to chruch late and leave early?
« Reply #19 on: September 14, 2008, 08:39:54 PM »
I went to a eastern catholic church ,the had assembly line liturgies one right after another..no veneration of the holy cross at the end or the blessed bread given out after the liturgy.......SmileyCentral.com" border="0
And that has what to do with the price of chicken in China?
"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens

Offline Marc1152

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Re: People come to chruch late and leave early?
« Reply #20 on: September 14, 2008, 08:43:29 PM »
Hello,

I recently went to a Greek Orthodox Church for liturgy. As a Eastern Catholic I found it very interesting.
Couple quesitons:

1: Who detemines what is said in english and/or greek.

2: Did notice that about 3/4 of the people came to church more than a hour late and then left after communion. I have gone to any Roman Catholic Churches where people do come 15 minutes late, but not an hour. I did not know what to make of it. I have also attened some OCA parishes and have not seen that there.

Thanks,

I noticed the same thing the few times I have gone to a Greek Church... They are on "Greek Time"... It's a cultural thing I believe.

I went one Friday during Pascha when the local Greek Church was having an Akathist. It started and the chanters were just a couple of young readers. I thought that was odd since everyone had told me how good the chanting was there. About fifteen minutes after the whole affair had started, a couple of parishioners sauntered in with their wives, shook a couple of hands and visited for a bit with friends and then finally mosied on up to the chanters stand, took off their coats and started chanting. The young readers withdrew.They were really good BTW.

Another time I went the Greek Church at the beach when I couldn't get to the local OCA Church. Once again, only a few minutes before communion the place filled up . I had been the only one there for Matins (Orthos)..... So it goes... I think it's a warm weather people vs cold weather people ( Russian) thingy.      
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Offline ytterbiumanalyst

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Re: People come to chruch late and leave early?
« Reply #21 on: September 14, 2008, 08:47:13 PM »
^ Could be. Having been to other parts of the world, I can say in that certain places, including Latin America, it is considered rude to refuse to stop and talk to someone you know just to make an appointment on time. So, though they may leave on time, they frequently get where they're going after the event has already started. What is considered rude in one place may not be rude in another. Now, Americans on the other hand are taught from an early age that being on time is very important, so I would look for a different explanation there.
"It is remarkable that what we call the world...in what professes to be true...will allow in one man no blemishes, and in another no virtue."--Charles Dickens

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: People come to chruch late and leave early?
« Reply #22 on: September 14, 2008, 09:01:10 PM »
Can I just remind everyone that this topic is in the Faith Issues forum and not in the Orthodox-Catholic discussion forum. This topic deals with the praxis in Orthodox Churches, and is not about personalities. Attacking people personally rather than dealing with the issue of the thread is, by definition, an ad hominem argument, and will no longer be tolerated in this thread.

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Offline Tzimis

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Re: People come to chruch late and leave early?
« Reply #23 on: September 14, 2008, 10:05:11 PM »
Hello,

I recently went to a Greek Orthodox Chruch for liturgy. As a Eastern Catholic I found it very interesting.



2: Did notice that about 3/4 of the people came to church more than a hour late and then left after communion. I have gone to any Roman Catholic Churches where people do come 15 minutes late, but not an hour. I did not know what to make of it. I have also attened some OCA parishes and have not seen that there.

Thanks,

While you might see some coming late. As I often do. Usually you will not see people leaving before the dismissal. The Priest wants to see who has come to church and he greets everyone before they exit.
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Offline EofK

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Re: People come to chruch late and leave early?
« Reply #24 on: September 14, 2008, 10:21:55 PM »
Welcome, John Mac!
I've noticed this phenomenon in our OCA parish as well.  It's always been explained to me as "Orthodox time," as in "we're not really sure why but the Orthodox do things by some other clock other than the Earth's rotation."  It's something I've never understood myself and our choir directress is ready to shoot some of us for this practice. 
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: People come to chruch late and leave early?
« Reply #25 on: September 14, 2008, 10:35:30 PM »
It's always been explained to me as "Orthodox time," as in "we're not really sure why but the Orthodox do things by some other clock other than the Earth's rotation."
LOL :D Actually, there may be a theological explanation for this. While the Hours (Orthros, Lauds etc) are based on terrestrial time, the Divine Liturgy is actually Eternal, that is, it is a "breakthrough" of Eternity into terrestrial, chronological time, since the Eternal Christ, Who is beyond time, is made Really Present through it.  People tend to turn up on time for Services which are not Divine Liturgies in the GO Church (such as the Bridegroom Matins,  Holy Unction etc).
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Offline Riddikulus

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Re: People come to chruch late and leave early?
« Reply #26 on: September 14, 2008, 10:51:58 PM »
Welcome, John Mac!
I've noticed this phenomenon in our OCA parish as well.  It's always been explained to me as "Orthodox time," as in "we're not really sure why but the Orthodox do things by some other clock other than the Earth's rotation."  It's something I've never understood myself and our choir directress is ready to shoot some of us for this practice. 

 :laugh:
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Offline Orthodoc

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Re: People come to chruch late and leave early?
« Reply #27 on: September 15, 2008, 11:14:55 AM »

I'm glad to say that in my parish (OCA) the vast majority of people are on time or not more than 10 minutes late.  However, there are the few that come in 1/2 hr late or more.  Some of these people are travelling 40+ miles one way to attend church so that should be taken into consideration.  Unfortunately, there is not always an Orthodox Church readily available in every place.

I have however noticed that is some parishes (Greek & OCA) where this may be a problem there is (or has been the practice) of, because of distances travelled, having Sunday School while the first part of the Liturgy is going on.  And then having the kids come in right before the Epistle & Gospel reading.  Very bad practice in my opinion.   Because what it does is give the impression to those kids that it's OK to be late as long as you are there before the the readings or prior to communion.

My own parish stopped this practice years ago and it certainly has had a positive effect on the next generation.  Those that come in late now are either people coming from a distance or those that were in Sunday School during the first part of the Liturgy!  As I've said before, this is a very bad practice in any parish! >:(

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« Last Edit: September 15, 2008, 11:18:10 AM by Orthodoc »
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Offline EofK

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Re: People come to chruch late and leave early?
« Reply #28 on: September 15, 2008, 12:52:39 PM »
^I agree, they miss out on a lot of prayer if they're not there until the gospel reading. 
Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. -- Douglas Adams

Offline Marc1152

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Re: People come to chruch late and leave early?
« Reply #29 on: September 15, 2008, 12:57:20 PM »
Ever heard this saying?

"I don't belong to an organized religion. I'm Orthodox"
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline GreekChef

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Re: People come to chruch late and leave early?
« Reply #30 on: September 15, 2008, 06:13:00 PM »
As I think it can be agreed that this phenomenon happens in all jurisdictions, I wouldn't say that it is specific only to Greeks.

I think there is a larger issue here.  Sadly, I think that people come late and leave early as a result of sheer boredom and disinterest.  Those who are uneducated in their faith don't understand why they need to be present for the WHOLE liturgy, and they have been taught by example that this behavior is not only acceptable, but in some cases, expected.  It comes down to this... IF THE DIVINE LITURGY AND COMMUNION WITH GOD WERE TRULY IMPORTANT TO THEM, THEY WOULD MAKE THE EFFORT TO BE THERE ON TIME.

I understand that it is difficult to get children anywhere on time and difficult to keep them interested and quiet (I have godchildren/nieces/nephews myself).  However the most important place for those children to be is in the Liturgy, and the most important thing for them to learn is their faith.  They won't learn this by being kept away for fear of making a disruption.  Most priests are supportive of parents whose children make a little noise (one priest whom my family is very close with says that the children's' chirpings are their way of talking to God and His Saints and His angels).  They should be allowed to participate the way they are able to, as we adults do. 

As far as being late because of the children (this is one I hear often... from people in my own family), how do you get them to the doctor on time, or school, or to playdates, or anywhere else?  I understand that lateness happens sometimes, but all the time?...

I think what it boils down to is that it just isn't important enough to them.  We have to pray for them, and we have to do our best to minister to them as Christ would and bring them back to Him.

Hope I'm not offending anyone... it is definitely not my intent.

God bless,
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Offline LBK

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Re: People come to chruch late and leave early?
« Reply #31 on: September 15, 2008, 06:58:47 PM »
As far as being late because of the children (this is one I hear often... from people in my own family), how do you get them to the doctor on time, or school, or to playdates, or anywhere else?  I understand that lateness happens sometimes, but all the time?...

Very, very good point! Priorities!
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Offline Orthodox11

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Re: People come to chruch late and leave early?
« Reply #32 on: September 15, 2008, 07:39:34 PM »
1: Who detemines what is said in english and/or greek.

This should be determined by the ruling Bishop. It may be determined by the parish priest, or even the parish council, provided these have been given the Bishop's blessing to make such decisions.

Offline GreekChef

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Re: People come to chruch late and leave early?
« Reply #33 on: September 15, 2008, 07:50:06 PM »
1: Who detemines what is said in english and/or greek.

This should be determined by the ruling Bishop. It may be determined by the parish priest, or even the parish council, provided these have been given the Bishop's blessing to make such decisions.

Respectfully, I would argue that, at least in the GOA, the parish council does NOT determine what is done in Greek or English.  They can make a request to the priest, but ultimately, according to Archdiocesan regulations, decisions regarding any and all Liturgical matters (such as language used) are to be made solely by the priest (and ultimately, of course, the bishop).
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Offline johnmac

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Re: People come to chruch late and leave early?
« Reply #34 on: September 15, 2008, 08:32:01 PM »
He goes to a Greek Orthodox church for Holy Liturgy..instead of keeping eyes to the front ,,his eyes are on the door in whose leaving and entering and taking note's,, mentions it here on this orthodox forum hummmm,,something smells fishy......SmileyCentral.com" border="0SmileyCentral.com" border="0

It is pretty hard to notice when they walk by me. I was not looking at the door. Everyone else has been very welcoming. I do not know what your problem. I asked an honest question about my fellow brother and sisters in Christ.

There is nothing fishy here I will assure you of that.

Offline johnmac

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Re: People come to chruch late and leave early?
« Reply #35 on: September 15, 2008, 08:36:23 PM »
I went to a eastern catholic church ,they had assembly line liturgies one right after another..no veneration of the Holy Cross at the end or the Blessed Bread given out after the liturgy.......SmileyCentral.com" border="0


It is very clear to me. You have a problem with a fellow Christian asking about something he does not know. I did not mean to offend anyone and apologize if I did. Again just a simple question. There is issues with all churches not matter what they are. I do not think it is fait to nit pick.

And for your information We do venerate the cross and give out bread. That is not all Catholic Churches. As I am sure what I saw does not happen at all Orthodox Churches.

Offline SolEX01

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Re: People come to chruch late and leave early?
« Reply #36 on: September 15, 2008, 11:01:33 PM »
As far as being late because of the children (this is one I hear often... from people in my own family), how do you get them to the doctor on time, or school, or to playdates, or anywhere else?  I understand that lateness happens sometimes, but all the time?...

Very, very good point! Priorities!

Or lack thereof?

At Church yesterday, a young girl told me that "Greeks have all the truth" as she responded to a discussion I had with her mother regarding the child's attendance at a televangelist sponsored elementary school.  I suppose if "Greeks have all the truth", such truth must be a secret to everyone else; hence, gnosticism defined.

Now, if the analogy is extended to other Orthodox, including Greeks, and refer to those who attend Church only for Communion and leave afterwards, these people now receive the "secret" meant for them.

Excerpt from the Paschal Sermon of St. John Chrysostom expanding further on the comments made in Reply #7

Quote
If any have tarried even until the eleventh hour,
let him also be not alarmed at his tardiness;
for the Lord, who is jealous of his honor,
will accept the last even as the first;
he gives rest unto him who comes at the eleventh hour,
even as unto him who has worked from the first hour.

To a lot of people, attending Church is not a priority while those Sunday Mornings are spent transporting children, sitting at home, performing chores or watching televangelists.  Who needs the Body and Blood of Christ for the Remission of Sins and Life Everlasting when a televangelist provides that 30 minutes of motivation?
« Last Edit: September 15, 2008, 11:17:55 PM by SolEX01 »

Offline scamandrius

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Re: People come to chruch late and leave early?
« Reply #37 on: September 17, 2008, 12:21:51 PM »
To a lot of people, attending Church is not a priority while those Sunday Mornings are spent transporting children, sitting at home, performing chores or watching televangelists.  Who needs the Body and Blood of Christ for the Remission of Sins and Life Everlasting when a televangelist provides that 30 minutes of motivation?


Well, you're right.  This is a failure of good catechesis and the witness we need to show to others.  And yes, people today want to be motivated to live a good (and prosperous) life rather than repent of their sins and have their sins forgiven by confession and the life-giving mysteries.  We're all about saving time to do those things which give us a sense of good feelings.  Such is the society in which we live. We can only persevere, go forward and try to live as our Lord commanded us and maybe, just maybe, such will be example to save another. Either way, rejoice!
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Offline SolEX01

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Re: People come to chruch late and leave early?
« Reply #38 on: September 17, 2008, 06:41:35 PM »
Well, you're right.  This is a failure of good catechesis and the witness we need to show to others.

There is no failure in catechesis.  People are exercising free will and inside that free will is the choice to not attend an Orthodox Church for whatever reasons which have been beaten to death in this forum and elsewhere.   ;) 

And yes, people today want to be motivated to live a good (and prosperous) life rather than repent of their sins and have their sins forgiven by confession and the life-giving mysteries.

Mix a little Protestant theology (via intermarriage) inside Orthodoxy and the foundation concepts of Confession and Communion go away.  Babies and toodlers do not know the difference; they do not require Confession and receive Communion via drive-thru manner.  Once they are old enough to understand good and bad and start doing bad (not all the time, hopefully), the Church attending stops.

We're all about saving time to do those things which give us a sense of good feelings.  Such is the society in which we live. We can only persevere, go forward and try to live as our Lord commanded us and maybe, just maybe, such will be example to save another. Either way, rejoice!

What is being rejoiced?  Jesus preached suffering as the cost of discipleship rather than good feelings.  People see corrupt Priests and Hierarchs and stay away, judging them without removing the plank from their eye.  No one can do anything about such people unless these people rediscover God; Unfortunately, they are exposed to televangelists who sell ideas like "Become a Better You."