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Offline samkim

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indian titles for various things...
« on: September 13, 2008, 12:19:45 PM »
If anyone knows... what does "thirumeni" mean? Is it Malayalam? And what are the titles for God and Christ and the Theotokos in the Indian Orthodox Church? Are there any Sanskrit words or references used, or adapted Hindu philosophical ideas in the Indian Church? Thanks. Indian Orthodoxy seems to be the closest thing we have to a native Asian Orthodoxy (if we exclude the Mideast).
« Last Edit: September 13, 2008, 12:21:07 PM by samkim »
주 예수 그리스도 하느님의 아들이시여 저 이 죄인을 불쌍히 여기소서.

Offline Jetavan

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Re: indian titles for various things...
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2008, 03:54:46 PM »
If anyone knows... what does "thirumeni" mean? Is it Malayalam? And what are the titles for God and Christ and the Theotokos in the Indian Orthodox Church? Are there any Sanskrit words or references used, or adapted Hindu philosophical ideas in the Indian Church? Thanks. Indian Orthodoxy seems to be the closest thing we have to a native Asian Orthodoxy (if we exclude the Mideast).

"Thirumeni" is Malayalam (and the Tamil form would be "Tirumeni", I believe), meaning "Divine" ("Thiru") "Body" ("Meni"), often used to describe the divine physical-incarnation body of Sri Krishna (as opposed to the divine non-physical form of Sri Krishna).

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.

Offline samkim

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Re: indian titles for various things...
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2008, 06:43:37 PM »
I imagine the term is adapted to Orthodox Christology. And why do bishops also carry this title?
주 예수 그리스도 하느님의 아들이시여 저 이 죄인을 불쌍히 여기소서.

Offline Jetavan

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Re: indian titles for various things...
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2008, 07:31:00 PM »
I imagine the term is adapted to Orthodox Christology. And why do bishops also carry this title?

Only an Indian Orthodox would be able to answer that question. :)
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.

Offline dhinuus

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Re: indian titles for various things...
« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2008, 12:10:18 PM »
If anyone knows... what does "thirumeni" mean? Is it Malayalam? And what are the titles for God and Christ and the Theotokos in the Indian Orthodox Church? Are there any Sanskrit words or references used, or adapted Hindu philosophical ideas in the Indian Church? Thanks. Indian Orthodoxy seems to be the closest thing we have to a native Asian Orthodoxy (if we exclude the Mideast).

Thirumeni is used to address a Bishop. So instead of addressing a Bishop as "Your Eminence" or a Patriarch as "Your Beatitude" or "Your Holiness" in Malayalam we address our Bishops as "Thirumeni". The Hindu high priests from Kerala Brahmin / Namboodiri families are addressed as Thirumeni. I am guessing the Malayalee Orthodox Christians adopted it to address thier Bishops. "Thiru" means Holy and "Meni" means body. So Thirumeni means Holy Person.

God is referred to as 'Daivam'

Christ is always referred to as 'Yehsu Mishiha'.; also a very common way to address Christ in Malayalam is "Karthavu" . Karthavu means Lord.

Theotokos is referred commony as 'Mathavu'. Mathavu means 'Mother'. Mathavu is the short form of Daiva Mathavu, which means Mother of God.  Another common way St. Mary is referred to by the Orthodox Christians of India is Mortha Mariam.

Even though Karthavu means Lord and Mathave means Mother. It is universally understood by speakers of Malayalam, even by Hindu's, that when someone says Karthavu he is referring to Jesus Christ and when he says Mathavu he is referring to the Theotokos.
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Offline samkim

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Re: indian titles for various things...
« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2008, 05:26:46 PM »
What is the word used for Logos in Malayalam?
주 예수 그리스도 하느님의 아들이시여 저 이 죄인을 불쌍히 여기소서.

Offline Jetavan

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Re: indian titles for various things...
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2008, 07:59:48 PM »
 ;D

« Last Edit: September 16, 2008, 08:00:31 PM by Jetavan »
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.

Offline dhinuus

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Re: indian titles for various things...
« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2008, 10:01:33 AM »
What is the word used for Logos in Malayalam?

The Malayalam word used is "Vachanam". 

You can click on the following link and listen to the hymn 'Only Begotten Son and the Immortal Word of God' (O Monogenes Yios) chanted in Malayalam in the Orthodox Chruches in India.

http://www.imeem.com/people/CnAF6pb/music/uo64Piuh/038ninmaathavump3/

If you listen closely you can hear 'Vachanamathaam Rajadheeshaa'. 'Vachanam' means 'The Word' or rather the 'Immortal Word of God', 'Vachana mathaam' means 'is' 'the word'. 'Rajadheesha' is roughly transalated as 'Lord and King'. So 'Vachanamathaam Rajadheeshaa' means 'Oh Lord and King.. who is The Word".

« Last Edit: September 17, 2008, 10:37:18 AM by dhinuus »
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Offline samkim

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Re: indian titles for various things...
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2008, 06:59:19 PM »
Thank you. And I guess it means literal "word" without any abstract cosmic connotations?
주 예수 그리스도 하느님의 아들이시여 저 이 죄인을 불쌍히 여기소서.

Offline Salpy

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Re: indian titles for various things...
« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2008, 09:31:29 PM »
What is the word used for Logos in Malayalam?

The Malayalam word used is "Vachanam". 

You can click on the following link and listen to the hymn 'Only Begotten Son and the Immortal Word of God' (O Monogenes Yios) chanted in Malayalam in the Orthodox Chruches in India.

http://www.imeem.com/people/CnAF6pb/music/uo64Piuh/038ninmaathavump3/

If you listen closely you can hear 'Vachanamathaam Rajadheeshaa'. 'Vachanam' means 'The Word' or rather the 'Immortal Word of God', 'Vachana mathaam' means 'is' 'the word'. 'Rajadheesha' is roughly transalated as 'Lord and King'. So 'Vachanamathaam Rajadheeshaa' means 'Oh Lord and King.. who is The Word".



That is great!  I hope you don't mind if I link this hymn in our Oriental Orthodox Music thread:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,9840.msg254077.html#msg254077

Offline surajiype

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Re: indian titles for various things...
« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2008, 02:25:39 AM »
Samkin,

Don't know if you are Orthodox, Thirumeni is the malayalam equivalent for Syendna or Vladyka as used by Orthodox in the Middle east and in the Russian tradition. It denotes respect to the High Priest, roughly equivalent to My Lord, and is considered to be a more affectionate expression than the formal Syriac Mor or Moran .

Its usage is relatively recent in Kerala, earlier when Kerala was divided into 3 kingdoms only the King of Travancore was addressed as Thirumeni. Out of respect for the King, Christians both Orthodox and Catholic did not address their Prelates as Thirumeni, referring to them as Pithav or Valiya Achen meaning Father or Senior Father. It was only when the kingdoms became irrelevant that the current usage started. 

Logos does not have an exact equivalent in malayalam that carries the deep meanings the Greek word carries, it is usually rendered as Vachanam or Word.

Offline samkim

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Re: indian titles for various things...
« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2008, 12:07:29 PM »
Samkin,

Don't know if you are Orthodox, Thirumeni is the malayalam equivalent for Syendna or Vladyka as used by Orthodox in the Middle east and in the Russian tradition. It denotes respect to the High Priest, roughly equivalent to My Lord, and is considered to be a more affectionate expression than the formal Syriac Mor or Moran .

Its usage is relatively recent in Kerala, earlier when Kerala was divided into 3 kingdoms only the King of Travancore was addressed as Thirumeni. Out of respect for the King, Christians both Orthodox and Catholic did not address their Prelates as Thirumeni, referring to them as Pithav or Valiya Achen meaning Father or Senior Father. It was only when the kingdoms became irrelevant that the current usage started. 

Logos does not have an exact equivalent in malayalam that carries the deep meanings the Greek word carries, it is usually rendered as Vachanam or Word.

Hello. If you look at my profile, you will see that I am Orthodox, by the way. Interesting. Some south-east asian countires translate Logos as "Dhamma" or Dharma. In Sino-Korean, we say "Do'" (or Dao/Tao in Chinese.)
« Last Edit: September 18, 2008, 12:08:49 PM by samkim »
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Offline Jetavan

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Re: indian titles for various things...
« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2008, 12:24:34 PM »
Thank you. And I guess it means literal "word" without any abstract cosmic connotations?

"Vac" (from which "Vachanam") has deep roots in the Vedas (which some might characterize as being "cosmic").
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.

Offline samkim

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Re: indian titles for various things...
« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2008, 12:49:44 PM »
Thank you. And I guess it means literal "word" without any abstract cosmic connotations?

"Vac" (from which "Vachanam") has deep roots in the Vedas (which some might characterize as being "cosmic").

What is "Vac" s significance in Vedic texts? I am a religious studies major at the Univeristy of Texas. This year... I'm getting so much about Hinduism... and I have three Indian roommates... SO MUCH CURRY! MMM
« Last Edit: September 18, 2008, 12:50:00 PM by samkim »
주 예수 그리스도 하느님의 아들이시여 저 이 죄인을 불쌍히 여기소서.

Offline samkim

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Re: indian titles for various things...
« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2008, 12:50:45 PM »
Nevermind, didn't see the link
주 예수 그리스도 하느님의 아들이시여 저 이 죄인을 불쌍히 여기소서.

Offline _Seraphim_

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Re: indian titles for various things...
« Reply #15 on: September 19, 2008, 01:46:15 PM »
I am a religious studies major at the Univeristy of Texas. This year... I'm getting so much about Hinduism...


I also studied comparative religion in college.  Hinduism and Buddhism in particular were my main areas of interest.  Two books really helped end my confusion as to how Orthodox Christianity compares with the other world religions: (Looking at your profile quote, I assume you've already read the first one)

1) Christ the Eternal Tao by Hieromonk Damascene.
2) Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future by Fr Seraphim Rose.  This book in particular really focuses a lot on Hinduism.  I highly recommend you read it soon.
+God bless
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Offline samkim

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Re: indian titles for various things...
« Reply #16 on: September 19, 2008, 02:23:51 PM »
I am a religious studies major at the Univeristy of Texas. This year... I'm getting so much about Hinduism...


I also studied comparative religion in college.  Hinduism and Buddhism in particular were my main areas of interest.  Two books really helped end my confusion as to how Orthodox Christianity compares with the other world religions: (Looking at your profile quote, I assume you've already read the first one)

1) Christ the Eternal Tao by Hieromonk Damascene.
2) Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future by Fr Seraphim Rose.  This book in particular really focuses a lot on Hinduism.  I highly recommend you read it soon.
+God bless

Fr. Damascene's book was good, though I did think he made a few minor mistakes about the meanings of some Chinese characters (and I found some of his poetry in the first section just a tad bit cheesey :) ).

Fr. Seraphim's book has been on my wishlist for a while. I just have so many other books I want to read.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2008, 02:25:02 PM by samkim »
주 예수 그리스도 하느님의 아들이시여 저 이 죄인을 불쌍히 여기소서.

Offline _Seraphim_

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Re: indian titles for various things...
« Reply #17 on: September 19, 2008, 02:35:47 PM »
I found some of his poetry in the first section just a tad bit cheesey :)

Yeah, I actually didn't read much of part 1... I just went straight to parts 2 and 3.

Fr. Seraphim's book has been on my wishlist for a while. I just have so many other books I want to read.

At least in Orthodoxy our "problem" isn't a lack of resources but rather an abundance!  ;)
"Disputes merely about words must not be suffered to divide those who think alike."
-St. Athanasius (†444)

Pray for Orthodox Unity

"Behold the light of our Agreed Statement on Christology"
http://www.orthodoxunity.org/state04.html