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Author Topic: Orthodox Opinion of RC The Liturgy of Hours  (Read 10715 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: February 09, 2004, 09:52:13 AM »

JBC: there are also order specific LOTH sets.  i.e. - Franciscan which I wished we would use, but the availability is such that it was decided to go with the regular LOTH.
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« Reply #46 on: February 09, 2004, 12:58:29 PM »

JBC: there are also order specific LOTH sets.  i.e. - Franciscan which I wished we would use, but the availability is such that it was decided to go with the regular LOTH.

Same with the Dominicans and Carthusians.  Some others too?  These Orders also had their own Ordos of the mass.  I do not know to what extent that these Ordos were suppressed since Vatican II.  Some may still be in existence today although in a "reformed" condition.  The Amborsian liturgy was "reformed."  Perhaps also the Mozarabic Rite too.  I just don't know.

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« Reply #47 on: February 09, 2004, 02:03:22 PM »

Jim,

The Psalms in the Byzantine Book of Prayer and Byzantine Daily Worship are from the Septuagint Psalter translated by Baron Jose De Vinck and Fr. Leonidas Contos and published by Alleluia Press.  It is the offical Psalter of the Melkite Catholic Eparchy and the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese, the Pittsburgh Metropolia uses it and the Grail Psalter.  Light and Life has it.
http://www.light-n-life.com/shopping/order_product.asp?ProductNum=SEPT050

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« Reply #48 on: February 09, 2004, 02:24:35 PM »

Jim,

The Psalms in the Byzantine Book of Prayer and Byzantine Daily Worship are from the Septuagint Psalter translated by Baron Jose De Vinck and Fr. Leonidas Contos and published by Alleluia Press.  It is the offical Psalter of the Melkite Catholic Eparchy and the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese, the Pittsburgh Metropolia uses it and the Grail Psalter.  Light and Life has it.
http://www.light-n-life.com/shopping/order_product.asp?ProductNum=SEPT050

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Thanks for the heads up, Fr. Lance.  BTW, I presume that the Metropolia uses the Grail Psalter as published in the LOTH and not the newer "inclusive language" version.  IMHO the Grail Psalter is OK.  It reads out loud better than the NAB Psalter.  I refer to the 1970 edition not the recently revised inclusive language 1986 NAB Psalter.  I find the NAB Psalter easy to read.  It just doesn't sound all that great when proclaimed publicly IMHO.

Jim C.
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« Reply #49 on: February 09, 2004, 02:28:37 PM »

Jim,

Byzantine monastics generally don't take the hours at their proper times but aggregate them.  Generally Midnight, Orthros and Prime are taken together, Terce, Sext, and Typika together, None and Vespers together, and Compline alone, so actually they are gathering for prayer 4 times a day.  

The Syrians aggregate everything into two services: None, Vespers and Compline in the early evening and Nocturns, Matins, Terce and Sext in the early morning.  

The Chaldean/Assyrian tradtion only has three hours Ramsha (Vespers), Lilya (Midnight), and Sapra (Morning) plus Subba'a (Vigil) held on some feasts.

I judge  five times a day at the proper hour better than aggregating the services together just for the sake of doing them.  

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« Reply #50 on: February 09, 2004, 02:32:59 PM »

Jim,

Yes, the Metropolia, or rather the new Seminary publications use the non-inclusive Grail Psalter.  However, most parishes have the Levkulic books for celebrating the Liturgy of the Presantified and Vespers and these use the De Vinck/Contos Septuagint Psalter.

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« Reply #51 on: March 24, 2014, 01:32:36 AM »

What would any of you recommend for an Eastern office of prayer? I currently use the single volume, Christian Prayer, and pray evenings, mornings, and sometimes mid day.

I searched the horologion and only found a few copies in English on Amazon, and they quite pricey. I realize this is a decade old thread, but hopefully someone will respond.
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« Reply #52 on: March 24, 2014, 05:51:18 AM »

What would any of you recommend for an Eastern office of prayer? I currently use the single volume, Christian Prayer, and pray evenings, mornings, and sometimes mid day.

I searched the horologion and only found a few copies in English on Amazon, and they quite pricey. I realize this is a decade old thread, but hopefully someone will respond.

Are you looking to pray the hours? If so PM me and I will send you a copy of the hours!
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« Reply #53 on: March 24, 2014, 06:08:30 AM »

There is also The Dynamic Horologion and Psalter, which shows you which office to pray whenever you access it, complete with all the changeable bits. It doesn't get more complete or handy than this, especially if you have a smartphone or tablet.
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« Reply #54 on: March 24, 2014, 09:57:18 AM »

There is also The Dynamic Horologion and Psalter, which shows you which office to pray whenever you access it, complete with all the changeable bits. It doesn't get more complete or handy than this, especially if you have a smartphone or tablet.

Are the "changeable bits" in a separate section of the website, or are they incorporated into the text of each service for each day?  I just took a look at today's Matins, Third Hour, and the evening's Vespers, and there is very little other than troparia in terms of variable parts and the rubrics are a bit off.  It's a good resource and, IMO, certainly trumps "prayer books", but it appears to have enough limitations that I would hesitate to call it "complete". 

If you know how to do a little hunting and how to put the services together, I think the internet has most of what is needed, at least for private use, for "complete" services. 
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« Reply #55 on: March 24, 2014, 10:02:07 AM »

What would any of you recommend for an Eastern office of prayer? I currently use the single volume, Christian Prayer, and pray evenings, mornings, and sometimes mid day.

I searched the horologion and only found a few copies in English on Amazon, and they quite pricey. I realize this is a decade old thread, but hopefully someone will respond.

We always respond to decade old threads.  Tongue

I presume you're looking for Byzantine rite resources and not those of another Eastern tradition, please correct me if I'm wrong. 

Before I attempt my own response, may I ask what exactly your goal is?  Are you more concerned with maintaining a daily rule of prayer with a broadly liturgical format, or do you want to "get into the rite"?   
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« Reply #56 on: March 24, 2014, 11:19:28 AM »

Wow, 10 yr oldie...

Try this... https://melkite.org/products-page/horologion


A new revised, expanded second edition of the Horologion. Thanks to the devoted and assiduous work of Rev. Father Michael Skrocki, the new Horologion contains the entire Divine Office, as in the first edition, plus (almost 300 pages added):

    the daily troparia and kontakia for each day of the year from the Menaion
    the Akathist and Paraklesis
    the Paschal Hour
    an expanded music section which includes, along with the music for each tone,
    the service music for Vespers, Orthros, and Akathist

Same style and size as the first edition: bound in black leather, gold edges, 7 silk ribbons.
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« Reply #57 on: March 24, 2014, 11:39:42 AM »

There is also The Dynamic Horologion and Psalter, which shows you which office to pray whenever you access it, complete with all the changeable bits. It doesn't get more complete or handy than this, especially if you have a smartphone or tablet.

Are the "changeable bits" in a separate section of the website, or are they incorporated into the text of each service for each day?  I just took a look at today's Matins, Third Hour, and the evening's Vespers, and there is very little other than troparia in terms of variable parts and the rubrics are a bit off.  It's a good resource and, IMO, certainly trumps "prayer books", but it appears to have enough limitations that I would hesitate to call it "complete". 

If you know how to do a little hunting and how to put the services together, I think the internet has most of what is needed, at least for private use, for "complete" services.

I don't presume to know half of what it takes to put services together. Grin It's just much better than anything I've seen either on t'other site with reader services, or in print (that doesn't involve multiple books, that is).
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« Reply #58 on: March 24, 2014, 11:53:42 AM »

I don't presume to know half of what it takes to put services together. Grin It's just much better than anything I've seen either on t'other site with reader services, or in print (that doesn't involve multiple books, that is).

Yeah, it really depends on what you are looking for in terms of your use of liturgical services.  If I was a cleric trying to start a mission somewhere by gathering people for reader's services, I'm not sure I would want to rely on that website alone, I'd probably look for the variable texts and have a "full" service.  On my own time, though, it might be better simply to retain some of the common prayers and psalmody, and call it a day. 
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« Reply #59 on: March 24, 2014, 12:50:52 PM »

When I'm in Athens next, I may buy myself this. It's a bit of an octavo-sized doorstopper, but it won't break the bank.
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« Reply #60 on: March 24, 2014, 01:24:05 PM »

Thanks Arachne! I bookmarked it. It's interesting to see who uses it based on geography at the side of the website there. Hadn't realized there were so many Orthodox Christians in the U.S.

Hey Mor Ephrem! I'm not entirely sure which Rite I'm interested in. I really ought to do more research. I'm not even sure where to begin. I'm Catholic, so in that sense the Byzantine tradition is probably closest to what I currently observe. The closest Orthodox church to me is a Ukrainian cathedral. I'm going to attend it, but I'm not sure of my intentions. As happy a Catholic as I am, there are some things in the Church that worry me. However, my prayerbook is my most prized possession on Earth. :l

It seemed to make sense that if I was looking at the Orthodox way, the first thing I would want to be intimately involved with is a book of their liturgical prayer.

Jakub! That looks very familiar. It's a book, check. It's full of prayers, check. It's got ribbons just like mine, check. It's in an Orthodox tradition, check.
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« Reply #61 on: March 25, 2014, 03:56:41 PM »

Hey Mor Ephrem! I'm not entirely sure which Rite I'm interested in. I really ought to do more research. I'm not even sure where to begin. I'm Catholic, so in that sense the Byzantine tradition is probably closest to what I currently observe.

Well, it depends how you look at it.  The LOH you currently use is mostly psalmody with a Scriptural reading, some intercessory prayer, and the Lord's Prayer.  Among all the Eastern rites, the equivalent of the LOH that is most like this is that of the Coptic rite.  But this does not really have any "Proper of Seasons" or "Common of Saints" or any features like that: actually, the seven hours do not change, but are the same every day and in every season.  The other rites have a more developed weekly and seasonal cycle, but are less dependent on continuous psalmody. 

If you want something "closest to what you currently observe", I'd want to know how you pray the LOH: is your focus more on the psalmody or on feasts, seasons, etc.?  When I used the LOH years ago, I leaned in the latter direction.  If I had to pick up the LOH again, I would probably lean more toward the psalmody.  You may be different.     

Quote
The closest Orthodox church to me is a Ukrainian cathedral. I'm going to attend it, but I'm not sure of my intentions. As happy a Catholic as I am, there are some things in the Church that worry me. However, my prayerbook is my most prized possession on Earth. :l

It seemed to make sense that if I was looking at the Orthodox way, the first thing I would want to be intimately involved with is a book of their liturgical prayer.

This is a good instinct, and if you're leaning toward the Byzantine rite, you will do well to study its Office.  But there's nothing like a Breviary in this tradition (i.e., a book or four that contain everything).  You can study the structure of the Office without having all the books, but to pray the services fully you will need the right books, or else you'll need to be satisfied with praying the parts you can and leaving the rest out.   
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« Reply #62 on: March 26, 2014, 02:57:34 AM »

Hey Mor Ephrem! I'm not entirely sure which Rite I'm interested in. I really ought to do more research. I'm not even sure where to begin. I'm Catholic, so in that sense the Byzantine tradition is probably closest to what I currently observe.

Well, it depends how you look at it.  The LOH you currently use is mostly psalmody with a Scriptural reading, some intercessory prayer, and the Lord's Prayer.  Among all the Eastern rites, the equivalent of the LOH that is most like this is that of the Coptic rite.  But this does not really have any "Proper of Seasons" or "Common of Saints" or any features like that: actually, the seven hours do not change, but are the same every day and in every season.  The other rites have a more developed weekly and seasonal cycle, but are less dependent on continuous psalmody. 

If you want something "closest to what you currently observe", I'd want to know how you pray the LOH: is your focus more on the psalmody or on feasts, seasons, etc.?  When I used the LOH years ago, I leaned in the latter direction.  If I had to pick up the LOH again, I would probably lean more toward the psalmody.  You may be different.     

Quote
The closest Orthodox church to me is a Ukrainian cathedral. I'm going to attend it, but I'm not sure of my intentions. As happy a Catholic as I am, there are some things in the Church that worry me. However, my prayerbook is my most prized possession on Earth. :l

It seemed to make sense that if I was looking at the Orthodox way, the first thing I would want to be intimately involved with is a book of their liturgical prayer.

This is a good instinct, and if you're leaning toward the Byzantine rite, you will do well to study its Office.  But there's nothing like a Breviary in this tradition (i.e., a book or four that contain everything).  You can study the structure of the Office without having all the books, but to pray the services fully you will need the right books, or else you'll need to be satisfied with praying the parts you can and leaving the rest out.   

In the Coptic rite do they not cycle through the Psalms? Psalmody takes precedence in my prayers. For feast days I often read the section on the particular Saint after I finish the body of prayers. I pray the psalms from the four week ordinary cycle and include the readings, intercession, and ending prayer from the common of seasons. On solemnities such as today (annunciation!!) I make an exception and take all the psalms, readings, intercessions, prayer, everything from either the common of saints or the section devoted to solemnities. However, psalms are the focus.

I managed to do some investigating and found what looks like a precursor or to a single volume breviary in the Byzantine tradition, but rather incomplete: Byzantine Daily worship by Archbishop Joseph Raya, and Stamford's Divine Office, published by the Eparchy of Stamford. The latter looks incredibly difficult to find. I'm curious, is the Horologion universal to the Orthodox Church, or do different Rites or groups have different types or ways of praying it?

Considering the scarcity of these books, I take it it isn't the most common form of prayer. I saw that the Jordanville prayer book was a popular publication. Is that more commonly drawn from in daily prayer? Also what do you guys think of the Orthodox Study Bible published by St. Athanasius Academy? What's the binding like? I take it the cover on Amazon is a dust jacket.

Thanks for being patient with all my questions.  Smiley
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« Reply #63 on: March 26, 2014, 11:26:26 AM »

In the Coptic rite do they not cycle through the Psalms? Psalmody takes precedence in my prayers. For feast days I often read the section on the particular Saint after I finish the body of prayers. I pray the psalms from the four week ordinary cycle and include the readings, intercession, and ending prayer from the common of seasons. On solemnities such as today (annunciation!!) I make an exception and take all the psalms, readings, intercessions, prayer, everything from either the common of saints or the section devoted to solemnities. However, psalms are the focus.

The Coptic Hours do not cycle through the Psalter as best I can tell.  Each hour has twelve Psalms (an ancient monastic feature) as well as some Scripture readings and prayers.  But some Psalms are repeated, and others are not used at all, in the course of the day.  I suppose there's nothing stopping someone in his own private practice from figuring out a way to cycle through the Psalms in the book over the course of a week or two and incorporate the missing Psalms, but I don't know if there's an official way to do that.  Maybe some Copts will read this and fill in the blanks for us. 

Quote
I managed to do some investigating and found what looks like a precursor or to a single volume breviary in the Byzantine tradition, but rather incomplete: Byzantine Daily worship by Archbishop Joseph Raya, and Stamford's Divine Office, published by the Eparchy of Stamford. The latter looks incredibly difficult to find. I'm curious, is the Horologion universal to the Orthodox Church, or do different Rites or groups have different types or ways of praying it?

With the exception of the Western Rite communities, all Eastern Orthodox use the Byzantine rite, and so the Horologion is basically the same for everyone.  There are local/regional variations, however, and some services are more popular in some regional traditions than others.  But it wouldn't be entirely unfamiliar. 

The Oriental Orthodox have several rites among the six or seven Churches in our communion, so while there are some broad similarities, there's a lot more difference than what EO are used to.  When we pray together, it can be an adventure.  Smiley

Quote
Considering the scarcity of these books, I take it it isn't the most common form of prayer. I saw that the Jordanville prayer book was a popular publication. Is that more commonly drawn from in daily prayer? Also what do you guys think of the Orthodox Study Bible published by St. Athanasius Academy? What's the binding like? I take it the cover on Amazon is a dust jacket.

Thanks for being patient with all my questions.  Smiley

Depending on the tradition, the books are not scarce at all, though certain editions might be.  But while the tradition of the Church is, obviously, the praying of the Office, not every tradition places an emphasis on this when it comes to the pastoral task of forming individuals into people of prayer.  The EO in modern times gravitate toward prayer books like that of Jordanville because there are no complicated rubrics or anything like that: you can read the morning prayers, for instance, straight through or abbreviating them as appropriate to your needs.  Though the daily services are often abbreviated to some extent, you need to know how to do them in full in order to know how and what to abbreviate, and then you still need several books.  It's not as user friendly as a prayer book.  But most OO traditions have an Office that is fairly easy to figure out, so we tend to stick to these services.  Prayer books do exist, but even these are just extremely abridged forms of the Office. 

I'll let others answer about the OSB: I do not own one or use one.  There are bound to be at least two or three threads about it, if you can search for them. 
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« Reply #64 on: March 26, 2014, 03:07:08 PM »

What would any of you recommend for an Eastern office of prayer? I currently use the single volume, Christian Prayer, and pray evenings, mornings, and sometimes mid day.

I searched the horologion and only found a few copies in English on Amazon, and they quite pricey. I realize this is a decade old thread, but hopefully someone will respond.

The best book for your personal prayers is the Jordanville Prayer Book. It is by far the most complete. I recommend that you start with this book and graduate up to Praying the Hours in the Horolorion. In  my opinion the best version is published by Holy Transfiguration Monastery.

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« Reply #65 on: March 27, 2014, 02:48:52 PM »

In the Coptic rite do they not cycle through the Psalms? Psalmody takes precedence in my prayers. For feast days I often read the section on the particular Saint after I finish the body of prayers. I pray the psalms from the four week ordinary cycle and include the readings, intercession, and ending prayer from the common of seasons. On solemnities such as today (annunciation!!) I make an exception and take all the psalms, readings, intercessions, prayer, everything from either the common of saints or the section devoted to solemnities. However, psalms are the focus.

The Coptic Hours do not cycle through the Psalter as best I can tell.  Each hour has twelve Psalms (an ancient monastic feature) as well as some Scripture readings and prayers.  But some Psalms are repeated, and others are not used at all, in the course of the day.  I suppose there's nothing stopping someone in his own private practice from figuring out a way to cycle through the Psalms in the book over the course of a week or two and incorporate the missing Psalms, but I don't know if there's an official way to do that.  Maybe some Copts will read this and fill in the blanks for us. 

Quote
I managed to do some investigating and found what looks like a precursor or to a single volume breviary in the Byzantine tradition, but rather incomplete: Byzantine Daily worship by Archbishop Joseph Raya, and Stamford's Divine Office, published by the Eparchy of Stamford. The latter looks incredibly difficult to find. I'm curious, is the Horologion universal to the Orthodox Church, or do different Rites or groups have different types or ways of praying it?

With the exception of the Western Rite communities, all Eastern Orthodox use the Byzantine rite, and so the Horologion is basically the same for everyone.  There are local/regional variations, however, and some services are more popular in some regional traditions than others.  But it wouldn't be entirely unfamiliar. 

The Oriental Orthodox have several rites among the six or seven Churches in our communion, so while there are some broad similarities, there's a lot more difference than what EO are used to.  When we pray together, it can be an adventure.  Smiley

Quote
Considering the scarcity of these books, I take it it isn't the most common form of prayer. I saw that the Jordanville prayer book was a popular publication. Is that more commonly drawn from in daily prayer? Also what do you guys think of the Orthodox Study Bible published by St. Athanasius Academy? What's the binding like? I take it the cover on Amazon is a dust jacket.

Thanks for being patient with all my questions.  Smiley

Depending on the tradition, the books are not scarce at all, though certain editions might be.  But while the tradition of the Church is, obviously, the praying of the Office, not every tradition places an emphasis on this when it comes to the pastoral task of forming individuals into people of prayer.  The EO in modern times gravitate toward prayer books like that of Jordanville because there are no complicated rubrics or anything like that: you can read the morning prayers, for instance, straight through or abbreviating them as appropriate to your needs.  Though the daily services are often abbreviated to some extent, you need to know how to do them in full in order to know how and what to abbreviate, and then you still need several books.  It's not as user friendly as a prayer book.  But most OO traditions have an Office that is fairly easy to figure out, so we tend to stick to these services.  Prayer books do exist, but even these are just extremely abridged forms of the Office. 

I'll let others answer about the OSB: I do not own one or use one.  There are bound to be at least two or three threads about it, if you can search for them. 

I'm impressed. Praying 12 Psalms at a time is pretty intense. That would explain it though, since they're covering alot of ground without needing to cycle. If most Eastern Orthodox use the Byzantine rite, do the Oriental Orthodox make use of all the other liturgies I hear about? Or do we have many dormant liturgies out there?

Even though I know offices of prayer are probably a later development, I've become far more attached to the divine office than any prayer book I've had. I want to collect and study as many as I can.  Smiley Thanks for all your help.

Quote
The best book for your personal prayers is the Jordanville Prayer Book. It is by far the most complete. I recommend that you start with this book and graduate up to Praying the Hours in the Horolorion. In  my opinion the best version is published by Holy Transfiguration Monastery.

Fr. John W. Morris

Thank you friar. Smiley If I can afford both, I'll purchase both and start with the Jordanville Prayer Book.
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« Reply #66 on: March 27, 2014, 03:17:52 PM »

If most Eastern Orthodox use the Byzantine rite, do the Oriental Orthodox make use of all the other liturgies I hear about? Or do we have many dormant liturgies out there?

Depends...what are "all the other liturgies" you're hearing about?  Smiley

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Even though I know offices of prayer are probably a later development, I've become far more attached to the divine office than any prayer book I've had. I want to collect and study as many as I can.  Smiley Thanks for all your help.

I suppose "offices of prayer" can be said to be a later development, if understood in a particular way.  But the concept of keeping certain moments of the day as moments of prayer can be seen in the book of Acts, so in general, it's not a later development, it's part and parcel of the worship of Christianity from its beginnings. 

In my experience, once you begin to use the daily Office, you don't really go back to prayer books and other aids regularly.  The Office has everything we need. 
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« Reply #67 on: March 29, 2014, 02:28:27 AM »

If most Eastern Orthodox use the Byzantine rite, do the Oriental Orthodox make use of all the other liturgies I hear about? Or do we have many dormant liturgies out there?

Depends...what are "all the other liturgies" you're hearing about?  Smiley

Quote
Even though I know offices of prayer are probably a later development, I've become far more attached to the divine office than any prayer book I've had. I want to collect and study as many as I can.  Smiley Thanks for all your help.

I suppose "offices of prayer" can be said to be a later development, if understood in a particular way.  But the concept of keeping certain moments of the day as moments of prayer can be seen in the book of Acts, so in general, it's not a later development, it's part and parcel of the worship of Christianity from its beginnings. 

In my experience, once you begin to use the daily Office, you don't really go back to prayer books and other aids regularly.  The Office has everything we need. 

I agree! There's is so much food in the daily prayers in the office. I could literally spend hours if not days praying the prayers for even one major hour and studying all of the beauty and theology and meaning in it. In terms of liturgies, I am about as uneducated as you can get, but just the list of liturgies on the wikipedia page is huge: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_liturgy

If Catholics only use the EF and OF, and Orthodox only use the liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, what about the liturgies of St. James and St. Basil, St. Tikhon and St. Gregory, the Gallican Rite and the Celtic Rite, are they all just not practiced? That would strike me as a loss to the Christian community.  Embarrassed
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« Reply #68 on: March 29, 2014, 03:49:33 AM »

If most Eastern Orthodox use the Byzantine rite, do the Oriental Orthodox make use of all the other liturgies I hear about? Or do we have many dormant liturgies out there?

Depends...what are "all the other liturgies" you're hearing about?  Smiley

Quote
Even though I know offices of prayer are probably a later development, I've become far more attached to the divine office than any prayer book I've had. I want to collect and study as many as I can.  Smiley Thanks for all your help.

I suppose "offices of prayer" can be said to be a later development, if understood in a particular way.  But the concept of keeping certain moments of the day as moments of prayer can be seen in the book of Acts, so in general, it's not a later development, it's part and parcel of the worship of Christianity from its beginnings. 

In my experience, once you begin to use the daily Office, you don't really go back to prayer books and other aids regularly.  The Office has everything we need. 

I agree! There's is so much food in the daily prayers in the office. I could literally spend hours if not days praying the prayers for even one major hour and studying all of the beauty and theology and meaning in it. In terms of liturgies, I am about as uneducated as you can get, but just the list of liturgies on the wikipedia page is huge: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_liturgy

If Catholics only use the EF and OF, and Orthodox only use the liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, what about the liturgies of St. James and St. Basil, St. Tikhon and St. Gregory, the Gallican Rite and the Celtic Rite, are they all just not practiced? That would strike me as a loss to the Christian community.  Embarrassed

The Orthodox Church indeed uses the Liturgy of St Basil. It is held ten times a year: on the feastday of St Basil the Great (January 1), on the Sundays of Great Lent, on the eves of the Nativity and Theophany, and twice during Holy Week.

The Liturgy of St James is held on the feastday of the saint; the vesperal Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts, held on Wednesdays and Fridays of Great Lent, is attributed to St Gregory the Dialogist.
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« Reply #69 on: March 29, 2014, 11:43:10 AM »

If Catholics only use the EF and OF, and Orthodox only use the liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, what about the liturgies of St. James and St. Basil, St. Tikhon and St. Gregory, the Gallican Rite and the Celtic Rite, are they all just not practiced? That would strike me as a loss to the Christian community.  Embarrassed

"Catholics" use the EF and OF of the Roman rite, but also in use today are some local rites (Ambrosian in Milan, both "EF" and "OF", Mozarabic in Toledo, "OF" and maybe "EF", and Bragan in Portugal, "EF"), rites of religious orders (e.g., Carmelite, Dominican, Praemonstratensian, Carthusian), the "Anglican" rite used by the Ordinariates, and also forms of just about every extant Eastern rite. 

Eastern Orthodox mostly use the Byzantine rite: in terms of the Liturgy, this means primarily St John Chrysostom's, but also St Basil's, the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts (during Lent), and, more rarely, St James'.   There are Western Rite communities which use their own Liturgies.

Oriental Orthodox use primarily four rites spread over about six or seven Churches, but there's a bit more to it than that. 
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« Reply #70 on: March 30, 2014, 03:54:44 AM »

Brilliant. I'm actually quite happy to hear they're still practiced.  Smiley

You two are veritable founts of knowledge.
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« Reply #71 on: March 30, 2014, 08:08:05 AM »

In the Coptic rite do they not cycle through the Psalms? Psalmody takes precedence in my prayers. For feast days I often read the section on the particular Saint after I finish the body of prayers. I pray the psalms from the four week ordinary cycle and include the readings, intercession, and ending prayer from the common of seasons. On solemnities such as today (annunciation!!) I make an exception and take all the psalms, readings, intercessions, prayer, everything from either the common of saints or the section devoted to solemnities. However, psalms are the focus.

The Coptic Hours do not cycle through the Psalter as best I can tell.  Each hour has twelve Psalms (an ancient monastic feature) as well as some Scripture readings and prayers.  But some Psalms are repeated, and others are not used at all, in the course of the day.  I suppose there's nothing stopping someone in his own private practice from figuring out a way to cycle through the Psalms in the book over the course of a week or two and incorporate the missing Psalms, but I don't know if there's an official way to do that.  Maybe some Copts will read this and fill in the blanks for us. 
[/quote]

The Copts have the Agpeya = book of the hours = horologion. It consists of 7 or 8 canonical hours consisting of ~12 psalms each, a gospel reading, troparia, and other prayers such as the prayer of thanksgiving, the gloria, the trisagion, an absolution, etc. It is entirely fixed, never changing except during Pascha week.

But there is also the Psalmody. It consists of several canticles, seasonal doxologies, daily and seasonal palis, theotokias, etc.

Right now, the Psalmody consists of evening praise, midnight praise, and morning praise. But the midnight praise used to be the midnight hour and lauds, but has since been fused. The canticles are fixed, and the rest varies by season and day.

The Midnight Praise is the closest equivalent to EO Matins, as far as I can tell.

There is also the evening and morning raising of incense, which have no EO equivalent.

So basically go get the fixed and variable to be more equivalent to the EO hours, you need the agpeya/horologion and the psalmody. But taking all of it is a lot, more than the monks do. You need to find some reasonable subset of everything possible.

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« Reply #72 on: April 02, 2014, 11:48:03 PM »

I just recently acquired the 4 volume Liturgy of the Hours...pray for me that I can figure it all out!  Roll Eyes

The Catholic Book Publishing Company publishes the 4 vol set.  They also publish a little Ordo or calendar that makes it easy.  There are also some summary "cheat sheets" to help you get started.

I bought the set many years ago and have used it from time to time such as Advent and Lent.  It is easy to figure out.

My main problem with the LOTH is that they suppressed Prime along with the great Athanasian Creed.  Also ICEL language is not my favorite.  They did not use the imprecation psalms--I guess you can't consider it prayer when you pray to the Lord to smite your enemies to smithereens!--either, too un-PC!

At least one good thing the Consilium did (I'm not fan of the Consilium due to the Novus Ordo Missae!) is make the LOTH available to the laity.  Although I prefer the Latin Mass I also prefer a vernacular Breviary/Horologion and vernacular sacraments, provided that vernacular has not been butchered by the International Commission for the Emasculation of Language [ICEL].

Jim C.


The Western Rite of the Antiochian Archdiocese uses the Pre Vatican II Benedictine breviary in traditional English. They publish it in a two volume set one for Matins and the Monastic Diurnal which can be bought from the Lancelot Andrewes Press which publishes Western Rite Orthodox Books. http://www.andrewespress.com/   

Fr. John W. Morris
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« Reply #73 on: April 04, 2014, 12:47:35 AM »

I do not like the RC Liturgy of the Hours, at all. I believe that it is a deformed office book, being that it was invented in 1973.
The translation of it is paraphrased and inaccurate in many areas. The psalms have many errors compared to vulgate/septuagint orthodox or older catholic texts. The english hymns for it, which are simply protestant hymns that apparently don't conflict with the catholics dogmas, which the norm to this day in north america, are lacking in depth to John Mason Neale or the latin originals.

The Latin version of the 1973 Liturgy of the Hours is better, but even here the inverted concept of  "lex orandi/lex credendi"  that "the liturgy should reflect new theological paradigms" and the Church shapes the liturgy, rather than the liturgy shaping the church, takes center change.

I found it highly disturbing that a particular western rite orthodox priest continues to use the 1973 book for his private office.

The Latin tradition of Divine Office is somewhat simple, therefore, if you do not make the most of something this simple, it is quite embarrassing. Ultimately I concluded that it was made mediocre intentionally.
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« Reply #74 on: April 04, 2014, 01:47:09 AM »

Instead of the Liturgy of the Hours, Ideally Roman Catholics should use the a historic medieval office book of their ancestors.
A large percentage of this book matches the ordo and propers for the Dominican rite. The similarity exists because it was based on that of northern french canons of french cathedrals, whereas the Salisbury use was influenced by Canons Regular in England. The main difference being that the Dominican had newer feasts for dominican saints added, and also had a small amount of alteration after the council of trent, but not to any level as serious as the regular Tridentine Roman Rite Office as used by the time of the 20th century, which itself was altered in the 1909. The Dominican is comparatively pristine compared to that.

This is what I use for the Office.
http://app.box.com/s/v3rxz8w1dua0fwyo89nj
The Order of Vespers throughout the year from the Salisbury use by Rev. G.H. Palmer (1934).pdf
http://app.box.com/s/3u2obptbtj3s5hlq24i1
Eight Ancient Fauxbourdons;  Set to the Song of the Blessed Virgin Mary, in English (2014-1912).pdf (Magnificat)
http://app.box.com/s/88xdw0t3fbdm0tw7o9tb
The Order of Vespers - A Psalter for Prayer by David James (adapted to the 1534 Sarum Use, Roman Rite).pdf (This is currently being completed, this is the bare bones psalms for vespers for the days of the week. I hope to complete this Psalter for Lauds and Vespers by this summer. It will also contain the litany and traditional final antiphons and prayers at the end, in side by side latin and english)

In the Sarum use one uses the same psalms for week days no matter what feast occurs. Only the "Great Feasts" such as of the Assumption, All Saints, Nativity and Apostles will use different psalms. This makes this office easier to keep up with with for the average person. It is in fact easier than later offices of the 20th century 1950's Roman rite as intended for diocesan priests. Even though its propers are slightly more elaborate, the rubrics and changes are easier.
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« Reply #75 on: April 25, 2014, 03:50:27 AM »

Hey Christopher, maybe you can clarify for me. I Heard that the old Roman LOTH is still technically the divine office of the Roman Catholic Church, even if the newly composed one is more popular. I was also told that it was almost entirely composed by Bugnini, an alleged Mason.

While I'm still praying it, I can't help but feel kind of unsettled now, and prefer spending time with my 1962 missal.
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« Reply #76 on: April 25, 2014, 02:36:55 PM »

yes, that is true, but as I say the 1962 dominican breviary has had less alteration than the regular early 60's breviaries. The dominican is remained the closest to the medieval form, hymns, proper antiphons and psalm number and layout remained unchanged the longests. Office books from before 1909 are generally better than those after.
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« Reply #77 on: April 25, 2014, 03:02:50 PM »

yes, that is true, but as I say the 1962 dominican breviary has had less alteration than the regular early 60's breviaries. The dominican is remained the closest to the medieval form, hymns, proper antiphons and psalm number and layout remained unchanged the longests. Office books from before 1909 are generally better than those after.

Someone gave me a copy of the new Roman Catholic daily office. The translations are terrible and destroy the beauty of the older translations like those used in the Monastic Diurnal and the Monastic Breviary Matins based on the Benedictine traditions and published by the Lancelot Andrewes Press which publishes books for the Antiochian Western Rite.

Fr. John W. Morris
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« Reply #78 on: April 25, 2014, 03:08:04 PM »

yes, that is true, but as I say the 1962 dominican breviary has had less alteration than the regular early 60's breviaries. The dominican is remained the closest to the medieval form, hymns, proper antiphons and psalm number and layout remained unchanged the longests. Office books from before 1909 are generally better than those after.

Someone gave me a copy of the new Roman Catholic daily office. The translations are terrible and destroy the beauty of the older translations like those used in the Monastic Diurnal and the Monastic Breviary Matins based on the Benedictine traditions and published by the Lancelot Andrewes Press which publishes books for the Antiochian Western Rite.

Fr. John W. Morris

Yes, I have seen these translations. Ever since 1973, the translations in use by the Roman Catholic Church are awful, simply awful.
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