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Author Topic: Orthodox Opinion of RC The Liturgy of Hours  (Read 10784 times) Average Rating: 0
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Jakub
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« on: August 15, 2003, 04:09:56 PM »

Just wondering about the Orthodox view of the RC Liturgy of the Hours, this currently is my primary way of praying and except for some items on Serge's site I have seen little mention/discussion of here.

james
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« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2003, 06:50:03 PM »

Just wondering about the Orthodox view of the RC Liturgy of the Hours, this currently is my primary way of praying and except for some items on Serge's site I have seen little mention/discussion of here.

james

Personally, James, I'm totally unfamiliar with the RC "Liturgy of the Hours," so I can't comment.  

Being Orthodox (and prior to that a Byzantine Rite Catholic), however, I am very familiar with the Third and Sixth Hours in the Orthodox Church (they are read before the Divine Liturgy) in the Slavic Orthodox churches, as a rule.

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« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2003, 10:05:36 PM »

I don't know that there is an official Orthodox opinion, but if it means anything to you, I used the LOH daily for a couple of years before I got Syriac books in English.  I loved it.
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« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2003, 10:37:17 PM »

Why thank you Bro Mor, I guess it can be compared with the Orthodox Book of Hours, the only difficulty is sometimes shuffling though the book for the Psalms and Canticles not assigned to a particular day or time.


Hope your power stays on, thought it was them Canadians eh, but looks like Cleveland did a no no.


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« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2003, 03:40:39 PM »

Dear Jakub,

The LOH can be quite confusing, but if you give it a month of regular use, the liturgical rules for its use become second nature.  Somewhere online, you can read the General Instruction on the Liturgy of the Hours, and this should help a lot.  Picking up an Ordo from a local Catholic book store helps, since it's like a cheat sheet for the year.  But I never bothered with either; after a few weeks, it really becomes second nature, and you will instinctively know what goes where.  Even now, even though I haven't used it for years, I could still tell you how to put together the offices for any given day, if I know one or two pieces of information.  It gets much easier!  

As for Cleveland, I don't care; I still think we should launch air strikes against Ottawa.  Tongue  

(Just kidding!)  Smiley
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« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2003, 09:26:06 PM »

Mor,

I use Universalis and another from a church in New York, the one I have is a 4 week Psalter and uses the 1963 Grail Psalms.

Don't pay no mind to Canadians out here, its a desert like 103', they probably melt.

james
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« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2003, 10:43:05 PM »

Just wondering about the Orthodox view of the RC Liturgy of the Hours, this currently is my primary way of praying and except for some items on Serge's site I have seen little mention/discussion of here.

james

Dear James:

When I converted to the Orthodox Church, I gave my Liturgy of the Hours to a Catholic priest who said he could use it. Personally, I found the prayers of the Orthodox Christians and the Melkite Greek Catholics to have more depth, more sacredness. Try the Melkite Byzantine Daily Worship, compare it with the LOH, and you will see what I mean. I know quite a few Roman Catholics who pray the BDW instead of the LOH.

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« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2003, 11:41:29 PM »

Thank you Maria, I will check it out.

What did Bobby do with the upgrade Tongue ?

james


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« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2003, 11:44:23 PM »

Lost our avatars again, apparently, James.   :-

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« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2003, 11:49:44 PM »

Hypo,

I think Capt Bobby is a wee bit tipsy.

james


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« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2003, 12:16:07 AM »

YO HO HO AND A BOTTLE OF RUM...

I'll restore ur avatars when i sober up!

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« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2003, 12:21:04 AM »

[move=up,scroll,6,transparent,100%]
UP
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[move=left,scroll,6,transparent,100%]LEFT[/move]
[move=right,scroll,6,transparent,100%]Right[/move]
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« Reply #12 on: November 19, 2003, 11:20:04 PM »

When you refer to the liturgy of the hours, are you refering to the 4 volume set or the single volume set?  I myself pray the 4 volume liturgy of the hours as part of my vocation. Smiley
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« Reply #13 on: November 19, 2003, 11:51:48 PM »

Wow I must have been a bad RC before converting to Orthodoxy. I've never herd of this.  Huh
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« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2003, 12:41:37 AM »

Assume the four volume set.  

(Welcome, Br. Max.  What order is OFC?)

Innocent, the Liturgy of the Hours is the Roman Catholic version of the Horologion, with all the usual offices: Vespers, Compline, Matins, Lauds, Terce, Sext, and None (they don't always call them by these names anymore).
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« Reply #15 on: November 20, 2003, 01:04:32 AM »

Br Max,

I  currently use the single volume 4 week Psalter and it was tough at first, however, I mix in Eastern prayers with it and it forms what heck of a rule of prayer for me.

Welcome aboard,

james
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« Reply #16 on: November 20, 2003, 10:09:52 AM »

OFC - Order of Franciscan Contemplatives

We are a non-denominational Franciscan order. Smiley  Thank you for the welcome.  This forum came recommended for civility and courtesy by a friend. I hope you do not mind some one who is neither orthodox nor RC floating around.

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« Reply #17 on: November 20, 2003, 10:11:47 AM »

Jakcub: I've been praying the 4 volume office for nearly 10 years now and prior to that the single volume "Christian prayer."  Its beautiful when sung~!
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« Reply #18 on: November 20, 2003, 11:54:27 AM »

Assume the four volume set.  

(Welcome, Br. Max.  What order is OFC?)

Innocent, the Liturgy of the Hours is the Roman Catholic version of the Horologion, with all the usual offices: Vespers, Compline, Matins, Lauds, Terce, Sext, and None (they don't always call them by these names anymore).    



AHH now I know what it is. Thanks Mor!


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We are a non-denominational Franciscan order

Hello there Br, Max. What is this order you belong to? I was a Catholic for around 25 years but have never herd of this. Is it the same as the regular Franciscan order?
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« Reply #19 on: November 20, 2003, 01:50:54 PM »

Innocent: nope.  we follow a Franciscan rule, but we are not joined with the Roman Franciscans.  The order I belong to is: Brothers and Sisters of the Community of the Crucified One.  Our Motherhouse is in Homestead, PA.  

I find that very few people have experience with the Franciscans except 9in the RC context.  However, there are Anglican, Lutheran, and Orthodox Franciscans as well as several ecumenical orders with membership from many backgrounds.
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« Reply #20 on: January 06, 2004, 02:58:19 PM »

I think that the LOTH is a pretty good rule of prayer for Roman Catholics -- but not many use it.   I do admire the way that the Latin Church trimmed their Horologion so that it could be more amenable to use by lay persons.  I don't think too many lay Orthodox pray our own Horologion except for the hyper-pious ... we have our own prayer rules that are designed for lay people which are challenging enough in their longer forms for the typically busy 21st century life.
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« Reply #21 on: January 06, 2004, 03:40:28 PM »

I have used the Agpeya, the Coptic Orthodox Book of Hours, and memorised some of it. But I have started trying to use the Sarum Diurnal translated by Palmer early in the last century. It's the prayers from the pre-Conquest/post-Conquest English Church.

It's interesting the bits that are the same in the various traditions, but it's interesting which bits are different, and the different emphases as well.

Before I was Orthodox I had used the Anglican Society of St Francis book of Daily Prayer with great benefit. I was fortunate to meet the Anglican Franciscan Brother Ramon several times when I stayed at Glasshampton monastery on retreat. The last time was just the weekend before I got married. I lost touch and when I went to get back in contact I discovered he had just died of cancer.
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« Reply #22 on: January 13, 2004, 11:56:08 AM »

As an Anglican, I can only say that the one volume edition of the RC Daily Office ("Morning and Evening Prayer") is very useful to my prayer life. I enjoy using it, and find it helps (even if it is rather difficult to get the hang of at first) me to remember to "put God first". I am considering buying the multi-volume set (I can't remember whether it's three or volumes on this side of the Pond), though, although I'm not sure. It would be extremely expensive to buy if I wasn't going to use it regularly.

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« Reply #23 on: January 13, 2004, 03:11:29 PM »

The real problem on this side of the pond is the expense.

The Office of Readings is one Volume on it's own and then you have the other 3 to buy as well - expensive

An easier way is to get Morning and Evening Prayer with  Night Prayer  [ 1 Volume] AND the Office of Reading

The Divine Office as a set is 4 Volumes.

Admittedly my solution of the 2 Volumes means a lot of hopping about - but it can be done.
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« Reply #24 on: January 13, 2004, 04:45:01 PM »

I have retired my LOH(1 volume 4 week Psalter) recently and have used a Eastern Prayers, with the LOH I started to feel that the communications with the Lord, Virgin Mary etc were not there.

james
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« Reply #25 on: January 13, 2004, 04:58:19 PM »

Being honest James, my copy is used less nowadays - I now have  a copy of the Psalter which I am using - and am appreciating far more,

You and I seem to be on the same path Wink
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« Reply #26 on: January 13, 2004, 05:04:40 PM »

LOH seems to generic for personal use and the direction of the prayer, I might use it for specific Holy days and Sundays though.

james
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« Reply #27 on: January 15, 2004, 11:18:43 AM »


Before I was Orthodox I had used the Anglican Society of St Francis book of Daily Prayer with great benefit. I was fortunate to meet the Anglican Franciscan Brother Ramon several times when I stayed at Glasshampton monastery on retreat. The last time was just the weekend before I got married. I lost touch and when I went to get back in contact I discovered he had just died of cancer.

Am I right in thinking that the late Brother Ramon published something on the Jesus Prayer? We have a small community of Anglican Franciscans here in Belfast, the joke goes that they 'look like Catholics, claim to be Anglicans and preach like Methodists!'

Brigid
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« Reply #28 on: January 15, 2004, 11:28:24 AM »

The LOH can be (at times) a TOTAL drag.  I've been praying it for nigh on 15 years now - 12 of those the full 4 volume set with long readings. There have been MANY times I have wanted to throw the books out the window and never be bothered with them again - I mean after 15 years I have many of the psalms and canticles memorized - not to mention the antiphons . . . .
 BUT, there is one thing I have learned; when you meditate and apply the office to your daily life, it will be real and relevant.  I cannot tell you how many times I have found the answers to my daily problems in the reading of the LOH.  ADDITIONALLY, there is the added benefit of the unity it brings Smiley to the local body, as well as to the greater body of Christ.

If I remember correctly, while I was in Ireland, their LOH was 3 volumes as opposed to the 4 volumes we use here in the states.  I believe that they do not divide Ordinary Time into 2 volumes as we do.  As for price - at $125 for the 4 vol set - it’s not cheep, but it has been more than worth it.  Me thinks I will have to purchase a new set soon though.  The covers are coming off mine. *sigh*
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« Reply #29 on: January 15, 2004, 11:32:57 AM »

Am I right in thinking that the late Brother Ramon published something on the Jesus Prayer? We have a small community of Anglican Franciscans here in Belfast, the joke goes that they 'look like Catholics, claim to be Anglicans and preach like Methodists!'

Brigid

oh I think I'd like these guys!!  I'll have to make a point to go and visit when I'm in Ireland next Grin Do you have any onfo on them?
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« Reply #30 on: January 15, 2004, 11:55:45 AM »

Am I right in thinking that the late Brother Ramon published something on the Jesus Prayer? We have a small community of Anglican Franciscans here in Belfast, the joke goes that they 'look like Catholics, claim to be Anglicans and preach like Methodists!'

What a wonderful description. I think that describes many of the brothers I met. Yes I am sure he did write on the Jesus Prayer. He was a lovely man and had that joyful glint in his eyes that many true christians have.
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« Reply #31 on: January 20, 2004, 11:02:23 PM »

I just recently acquired the 4 volume Liturgy of the Hours...pray for me that I can figure it all out!  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #32 on: January 20, 2004, 11:11:22 PM »

MS - if you need help . . . . Smiley I'd be gald to assist.  But if you read begining of Vol I, it explains most everything.
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« Reply #33 on: January 21, 2004, 01:04:29 PM »

That's what I told her too!
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« Reply #34 on: February 07, 2004, 02:04:28 AM »

Well, you asked . . . .  I participate in a weekly prayer and discussion group made up of mostly Catholic men, and we start with the LOH.  Having grown up with the BCP, and now using the Jordanville prayerbook at home, and the standard OCA translation in Church, I find the Novus Ordum translations hideous.  Clearly the work of committees, and apparently, not a poet or real man of letters among them.
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« Reply #35 on: February 07, 2004, 09:53:30 AM »

ambrose: there are times when it can be quite tedious!
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« Reply #36 on: February 07, 2004, 06:31:53 PM »

I just recently acquired the 4 volume Liturgy of the Hours...pray for me that I can figure it all out!  Roll Eyes

The Catholic Book Publishing Company publishes the 4 vol set.  They also publish a little Ordo or calendar that makes it easy.  There are also some summary "cheat sheets" to help you get started.

I bought the set many years ago and have used it from time to time such as Advent and Lent.  It is easy to figure out.

My main problem with the LOTH is that they suppressed Prime along with the great Athanasian Creed.  Also ICEL language is not my favorite.  They did not use the imprecation psalms--I guess you can't consider it prayer when you pray to the Lord to smite your enemies to smithereens!--either, too un-PC!

At least one good thing the Consilium did (I'm not fan of the Consilium due to the Novus Ordo Missae!) is make the LOTH available to the laity.  Although I prefer the Latin Mass I also prefer a vernacular Breviary/Horologion and vernacular sacraments, provided that vernacular has not been butchered by the International Commission for the Emasculation of Language [ICEL].

Jim C.
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« Reply #37 on: February 07, 2004, 10:06:40 PM »

JBC:  lol you play the part of the cynic well Wink
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« Reply #38 on: February 08, 2004, 08:21:22 AM »

JBC:  lol you play the part of the cynic well Wink

  He's also a fine realist. God bless ya man, great points!


     Pax Christi.
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« Reply #39 on: February 08, 2004, 02:12:01 PM »

JBC:  lol you play the part of the cynic well Wink

Not quite right.  I am not a cynic though critical of lots of things in my time.  If I were a cynic, I can assure you that I would be one rather than merely playing the part of one!  Actually I'm a sailor (a retired one) and sailors complain a lot.  When my sailors were complaining I knew that things were basically OK.  When they were quiet I would be quaking in my shoes!

 He's also a fine realist. God bless ya man, great points!


     Pax Christi.

Thanks for the support.  Again, I support the new LOTH even with my complaints about it.  The Consilium arrogantly deleted one of the 8 canonical hours.  Doesn't the psalm say that we are to pray 7 times a day and at midnight?  We (RC's) lost one opportunity for formal prayer!

I also would prefer more sacred sounding language, not necessarily Thee's and Thou's (which I personally like), in the biblical and non-biblical texts of the LOTH.  Unfortunately, the LOTH has not caught on big with the laity because, unfortunately IMHO, many clerics and religious have ignored the LOTH.  For example, a parish priest is required to pray the Divine Office.  It is a liturgical function for a RC priest.  However, it seems that the newly ordained RC clerics that I have encountered are submitting to authority and praying the Hours.  I have personally witnessed this in Church before mass on many occasions.  Praise God!


Jim
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« Reply #40 on: February 08, 2004, 09:37:53 PM »

Jim,

The LOTH still has seven hours: If all the hours are prayed.  The suppression of prime was understandable as it was the last hour added and is a doubling of Lauds.  Its origin was in the monasteries.  It was added so the monks had to get up instead of letting them sleep from lauds to terce.  I guess 4 hours straight was to much of a luxury.Smiley  As far as translations go have you ever tried the British edition .  It is ICEL free.

Fr. Deacon Lance
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« Reply #41 on: February 08, 2004, 10:35:15 PM »

I have run the gamut of Western breviaries (well, not really, but it seems like it). I would agree that there is something lacking in the translation, but I hear that the original Latin is good and beautiful so I think the problem is with the translating committee, and not with the hours themselves.

I would venture that the biggest problem with the LOTH is the loss of the traditional hymns, although whether this is a peculiarity in the English translation, I don't know.

I think it is tolerable, effacacious, indeed, capable of helping us grow as Christians. But I prefer the pre-Vatican Little Office of the Blessed Virgin Mary, or better yet, just praying the selection from the Liturgy of the Hours in my Fr. Socias Handbook of Prayers.

I wonder, have any of you tried praying the Little Office? What about the Fr. Socias prayerbook?
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« Reply #42 on: February 08, 2004, 10:36:41 PM »

Dear Fr.,

Yes, I have heard of the British edition on another Forum but have not had the opportunity to see any of it.  

The post-V2 LOTH:

1.  Office of Readings (the old Matins)
2.  Morning Prayer (the old Lauds)
3.  Mid-morning prayer(3rd hour or Terce)
4.  Mid-day prayer (6th hour or Sext)
5.  Mid-afternoon prayer (9th hour or None)
6.  Evening Prayer (Vespers)
7.  Nite Prayer (Compline)

Prime has been supressed.  I guess that the the OOR, like Matins, could be considered the Midnight Office and thus there is no 8th canonical hour!    

I still wish that the Consilium would have respected Prime and the Athanasian Creed!  BTW, the "Mid-" prayers are very short; in fact, the whole office is very short compared to its predecessor.  Thus, I don't think that those "awful hierarchs" would have kept the Monks up that long had they kept a reformed Prime.  Besides, the Concilium's psalter only has a psalter on a 30 days cycle with the imprecation psalms suppressed.

I don't know about the monks but the rubrics in the LOTH provide the secular cleric who is required to pray the office a choice of praying only one of the  3 mid-hours so we now have 5 canonical hours in a day!  I suppose we should be greatful that we don't have just Morning and Evening Prayer!  So much for Psalm 118:164 (LXX).

Look at the poor Orthodox Monks, i.e., those who say the complete or near-complete Hours!  During the Great Lent I believe they double up on a weekly Psalter of all 150 psalms and pray the entire Psalter twice a week!  Wow!  This is in addition to the portion of the psalter within each Hour such as in Orthros!

I hope to see the British version of the modern Breviary some day soon!

Jim C.


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« Reply #43 on: February 08, 2004, 10:44:51 PM »


I wonder, have any of you tried praying the Little Office? What about the Fr. Socias prayerbook?

I have prayed the Little Office of the BVM in a 1977 edition published by Carmel Books.  It is a reprint of the 1914 edition and is bilingual--Latin on one side and Engish on the other.  It's pretty good although repetitious.  It has the virtue of being within the scope of a lay person's capability.  The complete Byzantine Hours are not IMHO.  It would take you about 8 hours/day to pray them all, including the Mesoria.  Oh but how Byzantine Orthros, Vespers, and Compline are glorious!  My favorite prayer is the great lamp lighting prayer [Oh Gladsome Light] and Ps 140:2 during the Presanctified Liturgy (Vespers + a Communion service).  You just can't beat this for its penitential nature!

Jim
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« Reply #44 on: February 08, 2004, 10:57:48 PM »

Jim,

The LOTH still has seven hours: If all the hours are prayed.  The suppression of prime was understandable as it was the last hour added and is a doubling of Lauds.  Its origin was in the monasteries.  It was added so the monks had to get up instead of letting them sleep from lauds to terce.  I guess 4 hours straight was to much of a luxury.Smiley  As far as translations go have you ever tried the British edition .  It is ICEL free.

Fr. Deacon Lance

I have a question for you Fr. Deacon Lance!  I have the Ruthenians' Byzantine Book of Prayer. and really like it.  I was wondering . . . what translation of the Psalter is in the prayer book?  I thought it might have been the one produced by the Monks of the New Skete (OCA) but I don't have a copy of their published psalter.  They reportedly have one in modern English.  I do have Holy Transfiguration Monastery's (HOCHNA) Psalter of the Seventy and I really like this one.  In fact it's my favorite.  A second favorite is a Masoretic based Psalter--The St. Dunstan's Plansong Psalter.

Do you know the pastor of OLPH in Albuquerque?  If so, I'll pass along your best regards if you like.  I'm "going East" for Great Lent.

Jim C.


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