OrthodoxChristianity.net
November 01, 2014, 06:37:52 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Orthodox Opinion of RC The Liturgy of Hours  (Read 10926 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Jakub
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,748



« on: August 15, 2003, 04:09:56 PM »

Just wondering about the Orthodox view of the RC Liturgy of the Hours, this currently is my primary way of praying and except for some items on Serge's site I have seen little mention/discussion of here.

james
Logged

An old timer is a man who's had a lot of interesting experiences -- some of them true.

Grant me the senility to forget the people I never liked anyway, the good fortune to run into the ones I do, and the eyesight to tell the difference.
Hypo-Ortho
Guest
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2003, 06:50:03 PM »

Just wondering about the Orthodox view of the RC Liturgy of the Hours, this currently is my primary way of praying and except for some items on Serge's site I have seen little mention/discussion of here.

james

Personally, James, I'm totally unfamiliar with the RC "Liturgy of the Hours," so I can't comment.  

Being Orthodox (and prior to that a Byzantine Rite Catholic), however, I am very familiar with the Third and Sixth Hours in the Orthodox Church (they are read before the Divine Liturgy) in the Slavic Orthodox churches, as a rule.

Hypo-Ortho
Logged
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 17,974


The Pope Emeritus reading OCNet


WWW
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2003, 10:05:36 PM »

I don't know that there is an official Orthodox opinion, but if it means anything to you, I used the LOH daily for a couple of years before I got Syriac books in English.  I loved it.
Logged

Still posting.

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


Mor Ephrem > Justin Kissel
Jakub
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,748



« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2003, 10:37:17 PM »

Why thank you Bro Mor, I guess it can be compared with the Orthodox Book of Hours, the only difficulty is sometimes shuffling though the book for the Psalms and Canticles not assigned to a particular day or time.


Hope your power stays on, thought it was them Canadians eh, but looks like Cleveland did a no no.


james
Logged

An old timer is a man who's had a lot of interesting experiences -- some of them true.

Grant me the senility to forget the people I never liked anyway, the good fortune to run into the ones I do, and the eyesight to tell the difference.
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 17,974


The Pope Emeritus reading OCNet


WWW
« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2003, 03:40:39 PM »

Dear Jakub,

The LOH can be quite confusing, but if you give it a month of regular use, the liturgical rules for its use become second nature.  Somewhere online, you can read the General Instruction on the Liturgy of the Hours, and this should help a lot.  Picking up an Ordo from a local Catholic book store helps, since it's like a cheat sheet for the year.  But I never bothered with either; after a few weeks, it really becomes second nature, and you will instinctively know what goes where.  Even now, even though I haven't used it for years, I could still tell you how to put together the offices for any given day, if I know one or two pieces of information.  It gets much easier!  

As for Cleveland, I don't care; I still think we should launch air strikes against Ottawa.  Tongue  

(Just kidding!)  Smiley
« Last Edit: August 16, 2003, 03:41:13 PM by Mor Ephrem » Logged

Still posting.

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


Mor Ephrem > Justin Kissel
Jakub
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,748



« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2003, 09:26:06 PM »

Mor,

I use Universalis and another from a church in New York, the one I have is a 4 week Psalter and uses the 1963 Grail Psalms.

Don't pay no mind to Canadians out here, its a desert like 103', they probably melt.

james
« Last Edit: August 16, 2003, 09:31:11 PM by Jakub » Logged

An old timer is a man who's had a lot of interesting experiences -- some of them true.

Grant me the senility to forget the people I never liked anyway, the good fortune to run into the ones I do, and the eyesight to tell the difference.
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,306


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2003, 10:43:05 PM »

Just wondering about the Orthodox view of the RC Liturgy of the Hours, this currently is my primary way of praying and except for some items on Serge's site I have seen little mention/discussion of here.

james

Dear James:

When I converted to the Orthodox Church, I gave my Liturgy of the Hours to a Catholic priest who said he could use it. Personally, I found the prayers of the Orthodox Christians and the Melkite Greek Catholics to have more depth, more sacredness. Try the Melkite Byzantine Daily Worship, compare it with the LOH, and you will see what I mean. I know quite a few Roman Catholics who pray the BDW instead of the LOH.

Yours in Christ,
Maria

How did the llama wander into my profile? Who let him out? Or is that an alpaca?
« Last Edit: August 17, 2003, 10:53:05 PM by Maria » Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
Jakub
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,748



« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2003, 11:41:29 PM »

Thank you Maria, I will check it out.

What did Bobby do with the upgrade Tongue ?

james


Someone get his Captain Morgan's.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2003, 11:43:12 PM by Jakub » Logged

An old timer is a man who's had a lot of interesting experiences -- some of them true.

Grant me the senility to forget the people I never liked anyway, the good fortune to run into the ones I do, and the eyesight to tell the difference.
Hypo-Ortho
Guest
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2003, 11:44:23 PM »

Lost our avatars again, apparently, James.   :-

Hypo-Ortho
Logged
Jakub
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,748



« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2003, 11:49:44 PM »

Hypo,

I think Capt Bobby is a wee bit tipsy.

james


I better watch out, he'll excommunicate  Tongue again.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2003, 11:52:43 PM by Jakub » Logged

An old timer is a man who's had a lot of interesting experiences -- some of them true.

Grant me the senility to forget the people I never liked anyway, the good fortune to run into the ones I do, and the eyesight to tell the difference.
Robert
"Amazing"
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,442



« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2003, 12:16:07 AM »

YO HO HO AND A BOTTLE OF RUM...

I'll restore ur avatars when i sober up!

Bobby
Logged
Robert
"Amazing"
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,442



« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2003, 12:21:04 AM »

[move=up,scroll,6,transparent,100%]
UP
[/move]
[move=left,scroll,6,transparent,100%]LEFT[/move]
[move=right,scroll,6,transparent,100%]Right[/move]
[move=down,scroll,6,transparent,100%]
DOWN
[/move]
Logged
Br. Max, OFC
Target of choice
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,418


ECCE HOMO


« Reply #12 on: November 19, 2003, 11:20:04 PM »

When you refer to the liturgy of the hours, are you refering to the 4 volume set or the single volume set?  I myself pray the 4 volume liturgy of the hours as part of my vocation. Smiley
Logged

"Where I live in Manhattan and where I work at ABC, people say 'conservative' the way people say 'child molester.' Leftist thinking is just the culture that I live in and the culture the reporters who populate the mainstream media
Innocent
No longer posting on this site
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 440

St. Innocent of Alaska


« Reply #13 on: November 19, 2003, 11:51:48 PM »

Wow I must have been a bad RC before converting to Orthodoxy. I've never herd of this.  Huh
Logged
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 17,974


The Pope Emeritus reading OCNet


WWW
« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2003, 12:41:37 AM »

Assume the four volume set.  

(Welcome, Br. Max.  What order is OFC?)

Innocent, the Liturgy of the Hours is the Roman Catholic version of the Horologion, with all the usual offices: Vespers, Compline, Matins, Lauds, Terce, Sext, and None (they don't always call them by these names anymore).
Logged

Still posting.

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


Mor Ephrem > Justin Kissel
Jakub
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,748



« Reply #15 on: November 20, 2003, 01:04:32 AM »

Br Max,

I  currently use the single volume 4 week Psalter and it was tough at first, however, I mix in Eastern prayers with it and it forms what heck of a rule of prayer for me.

Welcome aboard,

james
Logged

An old timer is a man who's had a lot of interesting experiences -- some of them true.

Grant me the senility to forget the people I never liked anyway, the good fortune to run into the ones I do, and the eyesight to tell the difference.
Br. Max, OFC
Target of choice
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,418


ECCE HOMO


« Reply #16 on: November 20, 2003, 10:09:52 AM »

OFC - Order of Franciscan Contemplatives

We are a non-denominational Franciscan order. Smiley  Thank you for the welcome.  This forum came recommended for civility and courtesy by a friend. I hope you do not mind some one who is neither orthodox nor RC floating around.

Logged

"Where I live in Manhattan and where I work at ABC, people say 'conservative' the way people say 'child molester.' Leftist thinking is just the culture that I live in and the culture the reporters who populate the mainstream media
Br. Max, OFC
Target of choice
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,418


ECCE HOMO


« Reply #17 on: November 20, 2003, 10:11:47 AM »

Jakcub: I've been praying the 4 volume office for nearly 10 years now and prior to that the single volume "Christian prayer."  Its beautiful when sung~!
Logged

"Where I live in Manhattan and where I work at ABC, people say 'conservative' the way people say 'child molester.' Leftist thinking is just the culture that I live in and the culture the reporters who populate the mainstream media
Innocent
No longer posting on this site
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 440

St. Innocent of Alaska


« Reply #18 on: November 20, 2003, 11:54:27 AM »

Assume the four volume set.  

(Welcome, Br. Max.  What order is OFC?)

Innocent, the Liturgy of the Hours is the Roman Catholic version of the Horologion, with all the usual offices: Vespers, Compline, Matins, Lauds, Terce, Sext, and None (they don't always call them by these names anymore).    



AHH now I know what it is. Thanks Mor!


Quote
We are a non-denominational Franciscan order

Hello there Br, Max. What is this order you belong to? I was a Catholic for around 25 years but have never herd of this. Is it the same as the regular Franciscan order?
Logged
Br. Max, OFC
Target of choice
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,418


ECCE HOMO


« Reply #19 on: November 20, 2003, 01:50:54 PM »

Innocent: nope.  we follow a Franciscan rule, but we are not joined with the Roman Franciscans.  The order I belong to is: Brothers and Sisters of the Community of the Crucified One.  Our Motherhouse is in Homestead, PA.  

I find that very few people have experience with the Franciscans except 9in the RC context.  However, there are Anglican, Lutheran, and Orthodox Franciscans as well as several ecumenical orders with membership from many backgrounds.
Logged

"Where I live in Manhattan and where I work at ABC, people say 'conservative' the way people say 'child molester.' Leftist thinking is just the culture that I live in and the culture the reporters who populate the mainstream media
Brendan03
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 544



« Reply #20 on: January 06, 2004, 02:58:19 PM »

I think that the LOTH is a pretty good rule of prayer for Roman Catholics -- but not many use it.   I do admire the way that the Latin Church trimmed their Horologion so that it could be more amenable to use by lay persons.  I don't think too many lay Orthodox pray our own Horologion except for the hyper-pious ... we have our own prayer rules that are designed for lay people which are challenging enough in their longer forms for the typically busy 21st century life.
Logged

B
Father Peter
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: British Orthodox Church within the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate
Posts: 2,656



WWW
« Reply #21 on: January 06, 2004, 03:40:28 PM »

I have used the Agpeya, the Coptic Orthodox Book of Hours, and memorised some of it. But I have started trying to use the Sarum Diurnal translated by Palmer early in the last century. It's the prayers from the pre-Conquest/post-Conquest English Church.

It's interesting the bits that are the same in the various traditions, but it's interesting which bits are different, and the different emphases as well.

Before I was Orthodox I had used the Anglican Society of St Francis book of Daily Prayer with great benefit. I was fortunate to meet the Anglican Franciscan Brother Ramon several times when I stayed at Glasshampton monastery on retreat. The last time was just the weekend before I got married. I lost touch and when I went to get back in contact I discovered he had just died of cancer.
Logged

Lord have mercy upon me a sinner
http://www.orthodoxmedway.org

My blog - http://anorthodoxpriest.blogspot.co.uk

The poster formerly known as peterfarrington
rjdoney
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1


OC.net


« Reply #22 on: January 13, 2004, 11:56:08 AM »

As an Anglican, I can only say that the one volume edition of the RC Daily Office ("Morning and Evening Prayer") is very useful to my prayer life. I enjoy using it, and find it helps (even if it is rather difficult to get the hang of at first) me to remember to "put God first". I am considering buying the multi-volume set (I can't remember whether it's three or volumes on this side of the Pond), though, although I'm not sure. It would be extremely expensive to buy if I wasn't going to use it regularly.

Richard
Logged
the slave
intolerant of intolerance
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Catholic
Jurisdiction: UGCC
Posts: 810



« Reply #23 on: January 13, 2004, 03:11:29 PM »

The real problem on this side of the pond is the expense.

The Office of Readings is one Volume on it's own and then you have the other 3 to buy as well - expensive

An easier way is to get Morning and Evening Prayer with  Night Prayer  [ 1 Volume] AND the Office of Reading

The Divine Office as a set is 4 Volumes.

Admittedly my solution of the 2 Volumes means a lot of hopping about - but it can be done.
Logged

"Never let anyone try to tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern. The West was fully Orthodox for a thousand years; and her venerable liturgy is far older than any of her heresies."
- St. John Maximovitch
Jakub
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,748



« Reply #24 on: January 13, 2004, 04:45:01 PM »

I have retired my LOH(1 volume 4 week Psalter) recently and have used a Eastern Prayers, with the LOH I started to feel that the communications with the Lord, Virgin Mary etc were not there.

james
Logged

An old timer is a man who's had a lot of interesting experiences -- some of them true.

Grant me the senility to forget the people I never liked anyway, the good fortune to run into the ones I do, and the eyesight to tell the difference.
the slave
intolerant of intolerance
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Catholic
Jurisdiction: UGCC
Posts: 810



« Reply #25 on: January 13, 2004, 04:58:19 PM »

Being honest James, my copy is used less nowadays - I now have  a copy of the Psalter which I am using - and am appreciating far more,

You and I seem to be on the same path Wink
Logged

"Never let anyone try to tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern. The West was fully Orthodox for a thousand years; and her venerable liturgy is far older than any of her heresies."
- St. John Maximovitch
Jakub
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,748



« Reply #26 on: January 13, 2004, 05:04:40 PM »

LOH seems to generic for personal use and the direction of the prayer, I might use it for specific Holy days and Sundays though.

james
Logged

An old timer is a man who's had a lot of interesting experiences -- some of them true.

Grant me the senility to forget the people I never liked anyway, the good fortune to run into the ones I do, and the eyesight to tell the difference.
Brigid of Kildare
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 280



« Reply #27 on: January 15, 2004, 11:18:43 AM »


Before I was Orthodox I had used the Anglican Society of St Francis book of Daily Prayer with great benefit. I was fortunate to meet the Anglican Franciscan Brother Ramon several times when I stayed at Glasshampton monastery on retreat. The last time was just the weekend before I got married. I lost touch and when I went to get back in contact I discovered he had just died of cancer.

Am I right in thinking that the late Brother Ramon published something on the Jesus Prayer? We have a small community of Anglican Franciscans here in Belfast, the joke goes that they 'look like Catholics, claim to be Anglicans and preach like Methodists!'

Brigid
« Last Edit: January 15, 2004, 11:20:09 AM by Brigid of Kildare » Logged

Bríd Naomhtha, Mhuire na nGaeil, Guí Orainn
Br. Max, OFC
Target of choice
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,418


ECCE HOMO


« Reply #28 on: January 15, 2004, 11:28:24 AM »

The LOH can be (at times) a TOTAL drag.  I've been praying it for nigh on 15 years now - 12 of those the full 4 volume set with long readings. There have been MANY times I have wanted to throw the books out the window and never be bothered with them again - I mean after 15 years I have many of the psalms and canticles memorized - not to mention the antiphons . . . .
 BUT, there is one thing I have learned; when you meditate and apply the office to your daily life, it will be real and relevant.  I cannot tell you how many times I have found the answers to my daily problems in the reading of the LOH.  ADDITIONALLY, there is the added benefit of the unity it brings Smiley to the local body, as well as to the greater body of Christ.

If I remember correctly, while I was in Ireland, their LOH was 3 volumes as opposed to the 4 volumes we use here in the states.  I believe that they do not divide Ordinary Time into 2 volumes as we do.  As for price - at $125 for the 4 vol set - it’s not cheep, but it has been more than worth it.  Me thinks I will have to purchase a new set soon though.  The covers are coming off mine. *sigh*
Logged

"Where I live in Manhattan and where I work at ABC, people say 'conservative' the way people say 'child molester.' Leftist thinking is just the culture that I live in and the culture the reporters who populate the mainstream media
Br. Max, OFC
Target of choice
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,418


ECCE HOMO


« Reply #29 on: January 15, 2004, 11:32:57 AM »

Am I right in thinking that the late Brother Ramon published something on the Jesus Prayer? We have a small community of Anglican Franciscans here in Belfast, the joke goes that they 'look like Catholics, claim to be Anglicans and preach like Methodists!'

Brigid

oh I think I'd like these guys!!  I'll have to make a point to go and visit when I'm in Ireland next Grin Do you have any onfo on them?
« Last Edit: January 15, 2004, 11:33:39 AM by Br. Max, OFC » Logged

"Where I live in Manhattan and where I work at ABC, people say 'conservative' the way people say 'child molester.' Leftist thinking is just the culture that I live in and the culture the reporters who populate the mainstream media
Father Peter
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: British Orthodox Church within the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate
Posts: 2,656



WWW
« Reply #30 on: January 15, 2004, 11:55:45 AM »

Am I right in thinking that the late Brother Ramon published something on the Jesus Prayer? We have a small community of Anglican Franciscans here in Belfast, the joke goes that they 'look like Catholics, claim to be Anglicans and preach like Methodists!'

What a wonderful description. I think that describes many of the brothers I met. Yes I am sure he did write on the Jesus Prayer. He was a lovely man and had that joyful glint in his eyes that many true christians have.
Logged

Lord have mercy upon me a sinner
http://www.orthodoxmedway.org

My blog - http://anorthodoxpriest.blogspot.co.uk

The poster formerly known as peterfarrington
MsGuided
Pharmakolytria
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 478


St. Anastasia


« Reply #31 on: January 20, 2004, 11:02:23 PM »

I just recently acquired the 4 volume Liturgy of the Hours...pray for me that I can figure it all out!  Roll Eyes
Logged

"Forgive me that great love leads me to talking nonsense." Barsanuphius
Br. Max, OFC
Target of choice
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,418


ECCE HOMO


« Reply #32 on: January 20, 2004, 11:11:22 PM »

MS - if you need help . . . . Smiley I'd be gald to assist.  But if you read begining of Vol I, it explains most everything.
Logged

"Where I live in Manhattan and where I work at ABC, people say 'conservative' the way people say 'child molester.' Leftist thinking is just the culture that I live in and the culture the reporters who populate the mainstream media
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 17,974


The Pope Emeritus reading OCNet


WWW
« Reply #33 on: January 21, 2004, 01:04:29 PM »

That's what I told her too!
Logged

Still posting.

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


Mor Ephrem > Justin Kissel
ambrosemzv
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 185


Pray unto God for us, Holy Ambrose of Optino!


« Reply #34 on: February 07, 2004, 02:04:28 AM »

Well, you asked . . . .  I participate in a weekly prayer and discussion group made up of mostly Catholic men, and we start with the LOH.  Having grown up with the BCP, and now using the Jordanville prayerbook at home, and the standard OCA translation in Church, I find the Novus Ordum translations hideous.  Clearly the work of committees, and apparently, not a poet or real man of letters among them.
Logged

Le coeur a ses raisons que la raison ne comprend pas.  -Pascal
Br. Max, OFC
Target of choice
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,418


ECCE HOMO


« Reply #35 on: February 07, 2004, 09:53:30 AM »

ambrose: there are times when it can be quite tedious!
Logged

"Where I live in Manhattan and where I work at ABC, people say 'conservative' the way people say 'child molester.' Leftist thinking is just the culture that I live in and the culture the reporters who populate the mainstream media
jbc1949
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 194


St. Adeodatus--Given by God


« Reply #36 on: February 07, 2004, 06:31:53 PM »

I just recently acquired the 4 volume Liturgy of the Hours...pray for me that I can figure it all out!  Roll Eyes

The Catholic Book Publishing Company publishes the 4 vol set.  They also publish a little Ordo or calendar that makes it easy.  There are also some summary "cheat sheets" to help you get started.

I bought the set many years ago and have used it from time to time such as Advent and Lent.  It is easy to figure out.

My main problem with the LOTH is that they suppressed Prime along with the great Athanasian Creed.  Also ICEL language is not my favorite.  They did not use the imprecation psalms--I guess you can't consider it prayer when you pray to the Lord to smite your enemies to smithereens!--either, too un-PC!

At least one good thing the Consilium did (I'm not fan of the Consilium due to the Novus Ordo Missae!) is make the LOTH available to the laity.  Although I prefer the Latin Mass I also prefer a vernacular Breviary/Horologion and vernacular sacraments, provided that vernacular has not been butchered by the International Commission for the Emasculation of Language [ICEL].

Jim C.
Logged
Br. Max, OFC
Target of choice
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,418


ECCE HOMO


« Reply #37 on: February 07, 2004, 10:06:40 PM »

JBC:  lol you play the part of the cynic well Wink
Logged

"Where I live in Manhattan and where I work at ABC, people say 'conservative' the way people say 'child molester.' Leftist thinking is just the culture that I live in and the culture the reporters who populate the mainstream media
ByzantineSerb
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 171


OC.net


« Reply #38 on: February 08, 2004, 08:21:22 AM »

JBC:  lol you play the part of the cynic well Wink

  He's also a fine realist. God bless ya man, great points!


     Pax Christi.
Logged

If we live as people of God, there will be room for all nations in the Balkans and in the world. If we liken ourselves to Cain who killed his brother Abel, then the entire earth will be too small even for two people. The Lord Jesus Christ teaches us to be
jbc1949
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 194


St. Adeodatus--Given by God


« Reply #39 on: February 08, 2004, 02:12:01 PM »

JBC:  lol you play the part of the cynic well Wink

Not quite right.  I am not a cynic though critical of lots of things in my time.  If I were a cynic, I can assure you that I would be one rather than merely playing the part of one!  Actually I'm a sailor (a retired one) and sailors complain a lot.  When my sailors were complaining I knew that things were basically OK.  When they were quiet I would be quaking in my shoes!

 He's also a fine realist. God bless ya man, great points!


     Pax Christi.

Thanks for the support.  Again, I support the new LOTH even with my complaints about it.  The Consilium arrogantly deleted one of the 8 canonical hours.  Doesn't the psalm say that we are to pray 7 times a day and at midnight?  We (RC's) lost one opportunity for formal prayer!

I also would prefer more sacred sounding language, not necessarily Thee's and Thou's (which I personally like), in the biblical and non-biblical texts of the LOTH.  Unfortunately, the LOTH has not caught on big with the laity because, unfortunately IMHO, many clerics and religious have ignored the LOTH.  For example, a parish priest is required to pray the Divine Office.  It is a liturgical function for a RC priest.  However, it seems that the newly ordained RC clerics that I have encountered are submitting to authority and praying the Hours.  I have personally witnessed this in Church before mass on many occasions.  Praise God!


Jim
Logged
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,962


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #40 on: February 08, 2004, 09:37:53 PM »

Jim,

The LOTH still has seven hours: If all the hours are prayed.  The suppression of prime was understandable as it was the last hour added and is a doubling of Lauds.  Its origin was in the monasteries.  It was added so the monks had to get up instead of letting them sleep from lauds to terce.  I guess 4 hours straight was to much of a luxury.Smiley  As far as translations go have you ever tried the British edition .  It is ICEL free.

Fr. Deacon Lance
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
The Caffeinator
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 433



« Reply #41 on: February 08, 2004, 10:35:15 PM »

I have run the gamut of Western breviaries (well, not really, but it seems like it). I would agree that there is something lacking in the translation, but I hear that the original Latin is good and beautiful so I think the problem is with the translating committee, and not with the hours themselves.

I would venture that the biggest problem with the LOTH is the loss of the traditional hymns, although whether this is a peculiarity in the English translation, I don't know.

I think it is tolerable, effacacious, indeed, capable of helping us grow as Christians. But I prefer the pre-Vatican Little Office of the Blessed Virgin Mary, or better yet, just praying the selection from the Liturgy of the Hours in my Fr. Socias Handbook of Prayers.

I wonder, have any of you tried praying the Little Office? What about the Fr. Socias prayerbook?
Logged
jbc1949
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 194


St. Adeodatus--Given by God


« Reply #42 on: February 08, 2004, 10:36:41 PM »

Dear Fr.,

Yes, I have heard of the British edition on another Forum but have not had the opportunity to see any of it.  

The post-V2 LOTH:

1.  Office of Readings (the old Matins)
2.  Morning Prayer (the old Lauds)
3.  Mid-morning prayer(3rd hour or Terce)
4.  Mid-day prayer (6th hour or Sext)
5.  Mid-afternoon prayer (9th hour or None)
6.  Evening Prayer (Vespers)
7.  Nite Prayer (Compline)

Prime has been supressed.  I guess that the the OOR, like Matins, could be considered the Midnight Office and thus there is no 8th canonical hour!    

I still wish that the Consilium would have respected Prime and the Athanasian Creed!  BTW, the "Mid-" prayers are very short; in fact, the whole office is very short compared to its predecessor.  Thus, I don't think that those "awful hierarchs" would have kept the Monks up that long had they kept a reformed Prime.  Besides, the Concilium's psalter only has a psalter on a 30 days cycle with the imprecation psalms suppressed.

I don't know about the monks but the rubrics in the LOTH provide the secular cleric who is required to pray the office a choice of praying only one of the  3 mid-hours so we now have 5 canonical hours in a day!  I suppose we should be greatful that we don't have just Morning and Evening Prayer!  So much for Psalm 118:164 (LXX).

Look at the poor Orthodox Monks, i.e., those who say the complete or near-complete Hours!  During the Great Lent I believe they double up on a weekly Psalter of all 150 psalms and pray the entire Psalter twice a week!  Wow!  This is in addition to the portion of the psalter within each Hour such as in Orthros!

I hope to see the British version of the modern Breviary some day soon!

Jim C.


Logged
jbc1949
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 194


St. Adeodatus--Given by God


« Reply #43 on: February 08, 2004, 10:44:51 PM »


I wonder, have any of you tried praying the Little Office? What about the Fr. Socias prayerbook?

I have prayed the Little Office of the BVM in a 1977 edition published by Carmel Books.  It is a reprint of the 1914 edition and is bilingual--Latin on one side and Engish on the other.  It's pretty good although repetitious.  It has the virtue of being within the scope of a lay person's capability.  The complete Byzantine Hours are not IMHO.  It would take you about 8 hours/day to pray them all, including the Mesoria.  Oh but how Byzantine Orthros, Vespers, and Compline are glorious!  My favorite prayer is the great lamp lighting prayer [Oh Gladsome Light] and Ps 140:2 during the Presanctified Liturgy (Vespers + a Communion service).  You just can't beat this for its penitential nature!

Jim
Logged
jbc1949
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 194


St. Adeodatus--Given by God


« Reply #44 on: February 08, 2004, 10:57:48 PM »

Jim,

The LOTH still has seven hours: If all the hours are prayed.  The suppression of prime was understandable as it was the last hour added and is a doubling of Lauds.  Its origin was in the monasteries.  It was added so the monks had to get up instead of letting them sleep from lauds to terce.  I guess 4 hours straight was to much of a luxury.Smiley  As far as translations go have you ever tried the British edition .  It is ICEL free.

Fr. Deacon Lance

I have a question for you Fr. Deacon Lance!  I have the Ruthenians' Byzantine Book of Prayer. and really like it.  I was wondering . . . what translation of the Psalter is in the prayer book?  I thought it might have been the one produced by the Monks of the New Skete (OCA) but I don't have a copy of their published psalter.  They reportedly have one in modern English.  I do have Holy Transfiguration Monastery's (HOCHNA) Psalter of the Seventy and I really like this one.  In fact it's my favorite.  A second favorite is a Masoretic based Psalter--The St. Dunstan's Plansong Psalter.

Do you know the pastor of OLPH in Albuquerque?  If so, I'll pass along your best regards if you like.  I'm "going East" for Great Lent.

Jim C.


Logged
Br. Max, OFC
Target of choice
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,418


ECCE HOMO


« Reply #45 on: February 09, 2004, 09:52:13 AM »

JBC: there are also order specific LOTH sets.  i.e. - Franciscan which I wished we would use, but the availability is such that it was decided to go with the regular LOTH.
Logged

"Where I live in Manhattan and where I work at ABC, people say 'conservative' the way people say 'child molester.' Leftist thinking is just the culture that I live in and the culture the reporters who populate the mainstream media
jbc1949
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 194


St. Adeodatus--Given by God


« Reply #46 on: February 09, 2004, 12:58:29 PM »

JBC: there are also order specific LOTH sets.  i.e. - Franciscan which I wished we would use, but the availability is such that it was decided to go with the regular LOTH.

Same with the Dominicans and Carthusians.  Some others too?  These Orders also had their own Ordos of the mass.  I do not know to what extent that these Ordos were suppressed since Vatican II.  Some may still be in existence today although in a "reformed" condition.  The Amborsian liturgy was "reformed."  Perhaps also the Mozarabic Rite too.  I just don't know.

Logged
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,962


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #47 on: February 09, 2004, 02:03:22 PM »

Jim,

The Psalms in the Byzantine Book of Prayer and Byzantine Daily Worship are from the Septuagint Psalter translated by Baron Jose De Vinck and Fr. Leonidas Contos and published by Alleluia Press.  It is the offical Psalter of the Melkite Catholic Eparchy and the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese, the Pittsburgh Metropolia uses it and the Grail Psalter.  Light and Life has it.
http://www.light-n-life.com/shopping/order_product.asp?ProductNum=SEPT050

Fr. Deacon Lance
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
jbc1949
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 194


St. Adeodatus--Given by God


« Reply #48 on: February 09, 2004, 02:24:35 PM »

Jim,

The Psalms in the Byzantine Book of Prayer and Byzantine Daily Worship are from the Septuagint Psalter translated by Baron Jose De Vinck and Fr. Leonidas Contos and published by Alleluia Press.  It is the offical Psalter of the Melkite Catholic Eparchy and the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese, the Pittsburgh Metropolia uses it and the Grail Psalter.  Light and Life has it.
http://www.light-n-life.com/shopping/order_product.asp?ProductNum=SEPT050

Fr. Deacon Lance

Thanks for the heads up, Fr. Lance.  BTW, I presume that the Metropolia uses the Grail Psalter as published in the LOTH and not the newer "inclusive language" version.  IMHO the Grail Psalter is OK.  It reads out loud better than the NAB Psalter.  I refer to the 1970 edition not the recently revised inclusive language 1986 NAB Psalter.  I find the NAB Psalter easy to read.  It just doesn't sound all that great when proclaimed publicly IMHO.

Jim C.
Logged
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,962


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #49 on: February 09, 2004, 02:28:37 PM »

Jim,

Byzantine monastics generally don't take the hours at their proper times but aggregate them.  Generally Midnight, Orthros and Prime are taken together, Terce, Sext, and Typika together, None and Vespers together, and Compline alone, so actually they are gathering for prayer 4 times a day.  

The Syrians aggregate everything into two services: None, Vespers and Compline in the early evening and Nocturns, Matins, Terce and Sext in the early morning.  

The Chaldean/Assyrian tradtion only has three hours Ramsha (Vespers), Lilya (Midnight), and Sapra (Morning) plus Subba'a (Vigil) held on some feasts.

I judge  five times a day at the proper hour better than aggregating the services together just for the sake of doing them.  

Fr. Deacon Lance
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,962


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #50 on: February 09, 2004, 02:32:59 PM »

Jim,

Yes, the Metropolia, or rather the new Seminary publications use the non-inclusive Grail Psalter.  However, most parishes have the Levkulic books for celebrating the Liturgy of the Presantified and Vespers and these use the De Vinck/Contos Septuagint Psalter.

Fr. Deacon Lance
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Keelin
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian - Inquirer
Posts: 70



« Reply #51 on: March 24, 2014, 01:32:36 AM »

What would any of you recommend for an Eastern office of prayer? I currently use the single volume, Christian Prayer, and pray evenings, mornings, and sometimes mid day.

I searched the horologion and only found a few copies in English on Amazon, and they quite pricey. I realize this is a decade old thread, but hopefully someone will respond.
Logged
soderquj
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: GOAA, Metropolis of Denver
Posts: 234



WWW
« Reply #52 on: March 24, 2014, 05:51:18 AM »

What would any of you recommend for an Eastern office of prayer? I currently use the single volume, Christian Prayer, and pray evenings, mornings, and sometimes mid day.

I searched the horologion and only found a few copies in English on Amazon, and they quite pricey. I realize this is a decade old thread, but hopefully someone will respond.

Are you looking to pray the hours? If so PM me and I will send you a copy of the hours!
Logged

O God, cleanse me a sinner and have mercy on me.
Arachne
Trinary Unit || Resident Bossy Boots
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Online Online

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Archdiocese of the British Isles and Ireland
Posts: 4,559


November is short. Type fast.


« Reply #53 on: March 24, 2014, 06:08:30 AM »

There is also The Dynamic Horologion and Psalter, which shows you which office to pray whenever you access it, complete with all the changeable bits. It doesn't get more complete or handy than this, especially if you have a smartphone or tablet.
Logged

'When you live your path all the time, you end up with both more path and more time.'~Venecia Rauls

Blog ~ Bookshelf ~ Jukebox
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 17,974


The Pope Emeritus reading OCNet


WWW
« Reply #54 on: March 24, 2014, 09:57:18 AM »

There is also The Dynamic Horologion and Psalter, which shows you which office to pray whenever you access it, complete with all the changeable bits. It doesn't get more complete or handy than this, especially if you have a smartphone or tablet.

Are the "changeable bits" in a separate section of the website, or are they incorporated into the text of each service for each day?  I just took a look at today's Matins, Third Hour, and the evening's Vespers, and there is very little other than troparia in terms of variable parts and the rubrics are a bit off.  It's a good resource and, IMO, certainly trumps "prayer books", but it appears to have enough limitations that I would hesitate to call it "complete". 

If you know how to do a little hunting and how to put the services together, I think the internet has most of what is needed, at least for private use, for "complete" services. 
Logged

Still posting.

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


Mor Ephrem > Justin Kissel
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 17,974


The Pope Emeritus reading OCNet


WWW
« Reply #55 on: March 24, 2014, 10:02:07 AM »

What would any of you recommend for an Eastern office of prayer? I currently use the single volume, Christian Prayer, and pray evenings, mornings, and sometimes mid day.

I searched the horologion and only found a few copies in English on Amazon, and they quite pricey. I realize this is a decade old thread, but hopefully someone will respond.

We always respond to decade old threads.  Tongue

I presume you're looking for Byzantine rite resources and not those of another Eastern tradition, please correct me if I'm wrong. 

Before I attempt my own response, may I ask what exactly your goal is?  Are you more concerned with maintaining a daily rule of prayer with a broadly liturgical format, or do you want to "get into the rite"?   
Logged

Still posting.

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


Mor Ephrem > Justin Kissel
Jakub
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,748



« Reply #56 on: March 24, 2014, 11:19:28 AM »

Wow, 10 yr oldie...

Try this... https://melkite.org/products-page/horologion


A new revised, expanded second edition of the Horologion. Thanks to the devoted and assiduous work of Rev. Father Michael Skrocki, the new Horologion contains the entire Divine Office, as in the first edition, plus (almost 300 pages added):

    the daily troparia and kontakia for each day of the year from the Menaion
    the Akathist and Paraklesis
    the Paschal Hour
    an expanded music section which includes, along with the music for each tone,
    the service music for Vespers, Orthros, and Akathist

Same style and size as the first edition: bound in black leather, gold edges, 7 silk ribbons.
Logged

An old timer is a man who's had a lot of interesting experiences -- some of them true.

Grant me the senility to forget the people I never liked anyway, the good fortune to run into the ones I do, and the eyesight to tell the difference.
Arachne
Trinary Unit || Resident Bossy Boots
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Online Online

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Archdiocese of the British Isles and Ireland
Posts: 4,559


November is short. Type fast.


« Reply #57 on: March 24, 2014, 11:39:42 AM »

There is also The Dynamic Horologion and Psalter, which shows you which office to pray whenever you access it, complete with all the changeable bits. It doesn't get more complete or handy than this, especially if you have a smartphone or tablet.

Are the "changeable bits" in a separate section of the website, or are they incorporated into the text of each service for each day?  I just took a look at today's Matins, Third Hour, and the evening's Vespers, and there is very little other than troparia in terms of variable parts and the rubrics are a bit off.  It's a good resource and, IMO, certainly trumps "prayer books", but it appears to have enough limitations that I would hesitate to call it "complete". 

If you know how to do a little hunting and how to put the services together, I think the internet has most of what is needed, at least for private use, for "complete" services.

I don't presume to know half of what it takes to put services together. Grin It's just much better than anything I've seen either on t'other site with reader services, or in print (that doesn't involve multiple books, that is).
Logged

'When you live your path all the time, you end up with both more path and more time.'~Venecia Rauls

Blog ~ Bookshelf ~ Jukebox
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 17,974


The Pope Emeritus reading OCNet


WWW
« Reply #58 on: March 24, 2014, 11:53:42 AM »

I don't presume to know half of what it takes to put services together. Grin It's just much better than anything I've seen either on t'other site with reader services, or in print (that doesn't involve multiple books, that is).

Yeah, it really depends on what you are looking for in terms of your use of liturgical services.  If I was a cleric trying to start a mission somewhere by gathering people for reader's services, I'm not sure I would want to rely on that website alone, I'd probably look for the variable texts and have a "full" service.  On my own time, though, it might be better simply to retain some of the common prayers and psalmody, and call it a day. 
Logged

Still posting.

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


Mor Ephrem > Justin Kissel
Arachne
Trinary Unit || Resident Bossy Boots
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Online Online

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Archdiocese of the British Isles and Ireland
Posts: 4,559


November is short. Type fast.


« Reply #59 on: March 24, 2014, 12:50:52 PM »

When I'm in Athens next, I may buy myself this. It's a bit of an octavo-sized doorstopper, but it won't break the bank.
Logged

'When you live your path all the time, you end up with both more path and more time.'~Venecia Rauls

Blog ~ Bookshelf ~ Jukebox
Keelin
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian - Inquirer
Posts: 70



« Reply #60 on: March 24, 2014, 01:24:05 PM »

Thanks Arachne! I bookmarked it. It's interesting to see who uses it based on geography at the side of the website there. Hadn't realized there were so many Orthodox Christians in the U.S.

Hey Mor Ephrem! I'm not entirely sure which Rite I'm interested in. I really ought to do more research. I'm not even sure where to begin. I'm Catholic, so in that sense the Byzantine tradition is probably closest to what I currently observe. The closest Orthodox church to me is a Ukrainian cathedral. I'm going to attend it, but I'm not sure of my intentions. As happy a Catholic as I am, there are some things in the Church that worry me. However, my prayerbook is my most prized possession on Earth. :l

It seemed to make sense that if I was looking at the Orthodox way, the first thing I would want to be intimately involved with is a book of their liturgical prayer.

Jakub! That looks very familiar. It's a book, check. It's full of prayers, check. It's got ribbons just like mine, check. It's in an Orthodox tradition, check.
Logged
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 17,974


The Pope Emeritus reading OCNet


WWW
« Reply #61 on: March 25, 2014, 03:56:41 PM »

Hey Mor Ephrem! I'm not entirely sure which Rite I'm interested in. I really ought to do more research. I'm not even sure where to begin. I'm Catholic, so in that sense the Byzantine tradition is probably closest to what I currently observe.

Well, it depends how you look at it.  The LOH you currently use is mostly psalmody with a Scriptural reading, some intercessory prayer, and the Lord's Prayer.  Among all the Eastern rites, the equivalent of the LOH that is most like this is that of the Coptic rite.  But this does not really have any "Proper of Seasons" or "Common of Saints" or any features like that: actually, the seven hours do not change, but are the same every day and in every season.  The other rites have a more developed weekly and seasonal cycle, but are less dependent on continuous psalmody. 

If you want something "closest to what you currently observe", I'd want to know how you pray the LOH: is your focus more on the psalmody or on feasts, seasons, etc.?  When I used the LOH years ago, I leaned in the latter direction.  If I had to pick up the LOH again, I would probably lean more toward the psalmody.  You may be different.     

Quote
The closest Orthodox church to me is a Ukrainian cathedral. I'm going to attend it, but I'm not sure of my intentions. As happy a Catholic as I am, there are some things in the Church that worry me. However, my prayerbook is my most prized possession on Earth. :l

It seemed to make sense that if I was looking at the Orthodox way, the first thing I would want to be intimately involved with is a book of their liturgical prayer.

This is a good instinct, and if you're leaning toward the Byzantine rite, you will do well to study its Office.  But there's nothing like a Breviary in this tradition (i.e., a book or four that contain everything).  You can study the structure of the Office without having all the books, but to pray the services fully you will need the right books, or else you'll need to be satisfied with praying the parts you can and leaving the rest out.   
Logged

Still posting.

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


Mor Ephrem > Justin Kissel
Keelin
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian - Inquirer
Posts: 70



« Reply #62 on: March 26, 2014, 02:57:34 AM »

Hey Mor Ephrem! I'm not entirely sure which Rite I'm interested in. I really ought to do more research. I'm not even sure where to begin. I'm Catholic, so in that sense the Byzantine tradition is probably closest to what I currently observe.

Well, it depends how you look at it.  The LOH you currently use is mostly psalmody with a Scriptural reading, some intercessory prayer, and the Lord's Prayer.  Among all the Eastern rites, the equivalent of the LOH that is most like this is that of the Coptic rite.  But this does not really have any "Proper of Seasons" or "Common of Saints" or any features like that: actually, the seven hours do not change, but are the same every day and in every season.  The other rites have a more developed weekly and seasonal cycle, but are less dependent on continuous psalmody. 

If you want something "closest to what you currently observe", I'd want to know how you pray the LOH: is your focus more on the psalmody or on feasts, seasons, etc.?  When I used the LOH years ago, I leaned in the latter direction.  If I had to pick up the LOH again, I would probably lean more toward the psalmody.  You may be different.     

Quote
The closest Orthodox church to me is a Ukrainian cathedral. I'm going to attend it, but I'm not sure of my intentions. As happy a Catholic as I am, there are some things in the Church that worry me. However, my prayerbook is my most prized possession on Earth. :l

It seemed to make sense that if I was looking at the Orthodox way, the first thing I would want to be intimately involved with is a book of their liturgical prayer.

This is a good instinct, and if you're leaning toward the Byzantine rite, you will do well to study its Office.  But there's nothing like a Breviary in this tradition (i.e., a book or four that contain everything).  You can study the structure of the Office without having all the books, but to pray the services fully you will need the right books, or else you'll need to be satisfied with praying the parts you can and leaving the rest out.   

In the Coptic rite do they not cycle through the Psalms? Psalmody takes precedence in my prayers. For feast days I often read the section on the particular Saint after I finish the body of prayers. I pray the psalms from the four week ordinary cycle and include the readings, intercession, and ending prayer from the common of seasons. On solemnities such as today (annunciation!!) I make an exception and take all the psalms, readings, intercessions, prayer, everything from either the common of saints or the section devoted to solemnities. However, psalms are the focus.

I managed to do some investigating and found what looks like a precursor or to a single volume breviary in the Byzantine tradition, but rather incomplete: Byzantine Daily worship by Archbishop Joseph Raya, and Stamford's Divine Office, published by the Eparchy of Stamford. The latter looks incredibly difficult to find. I'm curious, is the Horologion universal to the Orthodox Church, or do different Rites or groups have different types or ways of praying it?

Considering the scarcity of these books, I take it it isn't the most common form of prayer. I saw that the Jordanville prayer book was a popular publication. Is that more commonly drawn from in daily prayer? Also what do you guys think of the Orthodox Study Bible published by St. Athanasius Academy? What's the binding like? I take it the cover on Amazon is a dust jacket.

Thanks for being patient with all my questions.  Smiley
Logged
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 17,974


The Pope Emeritus reading OCNet


WWW
« Reply #63 on: March 26, 2014, 11:26:26 AM »

In the Coptic rite do they not cycle through the Psalms? Psalmody takes precedence in my prayers. For feast days I often read the section on the particular Saint after I finish the body of prayers. I pray the psalms from the four week ordinary cycle and include the readings, intercession, and ending prayer from the common of seasons. On solemnities such as today (annunciation!!) I make an exception and take all the psalms, readings, intercessions, prayer, everything from either the common of saints or the section devoted to solemnities. However, psalms are the focus.

The Coptic Hours do not cycle through the Psalter as best I can tell.  Each hour has twelve Psalms (an ancient monastic feature) as well as some Scripture readings and prayers.  But some Psalms are repeated, and others are not used at all, in the course of the day.  I suppose there's nothing stopping someone in his own private practice from figuring out a way to cycle through the Psalms in the book over the course of a week or two and incorporate the missing Psalms, but I don't know if there's an official way to do that.  Maybe some Copts will read this and fill in the blanks for us. 

Quote
I managed to do some investigating and found what looks like a precursor or to a single volume breviary in the Byzantine tradition, but rather incomplete: Byzantine Daily worship by Archbishop Joseph Raya, and Stamford's Divine Office, published by the Eparchy of Stamford. The latter looks incredibly difficult to find. I'm curious, is the Horologion universal to the Orthodox Church, or do different Rites or groups have different types or ways of praying it?

With the exception of the Western Rite communities, all Eastern Orthodox use the Byzantine rite, and so the Horologion is basically the same for everyone.  There are local/regional variations, however, and some services are more popular in some regional traditions than others.  But it wouldn't be entirely unfamiliar. 

The Oriental Orthodox have several rites among the six or seven Churches in our communion, so while there are some broad similarities, there's a lot more difference than what EO are used to.  When we pray together, it can be an adventure.  Smiley

Quote
Considering the scarcity of these books, I take it it isn't the most common form of prayer. I saw that the Jordanville prayer book was a popular publication. Is that more commonly drawn from in daily prayer? Also what do you guys think of the Orthodox Study Bible published by St. Athanasius Academy? What's the binding like? I take it the cover on Amazon is a dust jacket.

Thanks for being patient with all my questions.  Smiley

Depending on the tradition, the books are not scarce at all, though certain editions might be.  But while the tradition of the Church is, obviously, the praying of the Office, not every tradition places an emphasis on this when it comes to the pastoral task of forming individuals into people of prayer.  The EO in modern times gravitate toward prayer books like that of Jordanville because there are no complicated rubrics or anything like that: you can read the morning prayers, for instance, straight through or abbreviating them as appropriate to your needs.  Though the daily services are often abbreviated to some extent, you need to know how to do them in full in order to know how and what to abbreviate, and then you still need several books.  It's not as user friendly as a prayer book.  But most OO traditions have an Office that is fairly easy to figure out, so we tend to stick to these services.  Prayer books do exist, but even these are just extremely abridged forms of the Office. 

I'll let others answer about the OSB: I do not own one or use one.  There are bound to be at least two or three threads about it, if you can search for them. 
Logged

Still posting.

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


Mor Ephrem > Justin Kissel
frjohnmorris
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 1,177


« Reply #64 on: March 26, 2014, 03:07:08 PM »

What would any of you recommend for an Eastern office of prayer? I currently use the single volume, Christian Prayer, and pray evenings, mornings, and sometimes mid day.

I searched the horologion and only found a few copies in English on Amazon, and they quite pricey. I realize this is a decade old thread, but hopefully someone will respond.

The best book for your personal prayers is the Jordanville Prayer Book. It is by far the most complete. I recommend that you start with this book and graduate up to Praying the Hours in the Horolorion. In  my opinion the best version is published by Holy Transfiguration Monastery.

Fr. John W. Morris
Logged
Keelin
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian - Inquirer
Posts: 70



« Reply #65 on: March 27, 2014, 02:48:52 PM »

In the Coptic rite do they not cycle through the Psalms? Psalmody takes precedence in my prayers. For feast days I often read the section on the particular Saint after I finish the body of prayers. I pray the psalms from the four week ordinary cycle and include the readings, intercession, and ending prayer from the common of seasons. On solemnities such as today (annunciation!!) I make an exception and take all the psalms, readings, intercessions, prayer, everything from either the common of saints or the section devoted to solemnities. However, psalms are the focus.

The Coptic Hours do not cycle through the Psalter as best I can tell.  Each hour has twelve Psalms (an ancient monastic feature) as well as some Scripture readings and prayers.  But some Psalms are repeated, and others are not used at all, in the course of the day.  I suppose there's nothing stopping someone in his own private practice from figuring out a way to cycle through the Psalms in the book over the course of a week or two and incorporate the missing Psalms, but I don't know if there's an official way to do that.  Maybe some Copts will read this and fill in the blanks for us. 

Quote
I managed to do some investigating and found what looks like a precursor or to a single volume breviary in the Byzantine tradition, but rather incomplete: Byzantine Daily worship by Archbishop Joseph Raya, and Stamford's Divine Office, published by the Eparchy of Stamford. The latter looks incredibly difficult to find. I'm curious, is the Horologion universal to the Orthodox Church, or do different Rites or groups have different types or ways of praying it?

With the exception of the Western Rite communities, all Eastern Orthodox use the Byzantine rite, and so the Horologion is basically the same for everyone.  There are local/regional variations, however, and some services are more popular in some regional traditions than others.  But it wouldn't be entirely unfamiliar. 

The Oriental Orthodox have several rites among the six or seven Churches in our communion, so while there are some broad similarities, there's a lot more difference than what EO are used to.  When we pray together, it can be an adventure.  Smiley

Quote
Considering the scarcity of these books, I take it it isn't the most common form of prayer. I saw that the Jordanville prayer book was a popular publication. Is that more commonly drawn from in daily prayer? Also what do you guys think of the Orthodox Study Bible published by St. Athanasius Academy? What's the binding like? I take it the cover on Amazon is a dust jacket.

Thanks for being patient with all my questions.  Smiley

Depending on the tradition, the books are not scarce at all, though certain editions might be.  But while the tradition of the Church is, obviously, the praying of the Office, not every tradition places an emphasis on this when it comes to the pastoral task of forming individuals into people of prayer.  The EO in modern times gravitate toward prayer books like that of Jordanville because there are no complicated rubrics or anything like that: you can read the morning prayers, for instance, straight through or abbreviating them as appropriate to your needs.  Though the daily services are often abbreviated to some extent, you need to know how to do them in full in order to know how and what to abbreviate, and then you still need several books.  It's not as user friendly as a prayer book.  But most OO traditions have an Office that is fairly easy to figure out, so we tend to stick to these services.  Prayer books do exist, but even these are just extremely abridged forms of the Office. 

I'll let others answer about the OSB: I do not own one or use one.  There are bound to be at least two or three threads about it, if you can search for them. 

I'm impressed. Praying 12 Psalms at a time is pretty intense. That would explain it though, since they're covering alot of ground without needing to cycle. If most Eastern Orthodox use the Byzantine rite, do the Oriental Orthodox make use of all the other liturgies I hear about? Or do we have many dormant liturgies out there?

Even though I know offices of prayer are probably a later development, I've become far more attached to the divine office than any prayer book I've had. I want to collect and study as many as I can.  Smiley Thanks for all your help.

Quote
The best book for your personal prayers is the Jordanville Prayer Book. It is by far the most complete. I recommend that you start with this book and graduate up to Praying the Hours in the Horolorion. In  my opinion the best version is published by Holy Transfiguration Monastery.

Fr. John W. Morris

Thank you friar. Smiley If I can afford both, I'll purchase both and start with the Jordanville Prayer Book.
Logged
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 17,974


The Pope Emeritus reading OCNet


WWW
« Reply #66 on: March 27, 2014, 03:17:52 PM »

If most Eastern Orthodox use the Byzantine rite, do the Oriental Orthodox make use of all the other liturgies I hear about? Or do we have many dormant liturgies out there?

Depends...what are "all the other liturgies" you're hearing about?  Smiley

Quote
Even though I know offices of prayer are probably a later development, I've become far more attached to the divine office than any prayer book I've had. I want to collect and study as many as I can.  Smiley Thanks for all your help.

I suppose "offices of prayer" can be said to be a later development, if understood in a particular way.  But the concept of keeping certain moments of the day as moments of prayer can be seen in the book of Acts, so in general, it's not a later development, it's part and parcel of the worship of Christianity from its beginnings. 

In my experience, once you begin to use the daily Office, you don't really go back to prayer books and other aids regularly.  The Office has everything we need. 
Logged

Still posting.

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


Mor Ephrem > Justin Kissel
Keelin
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian - Inquirer
Posts: 70



« Reply #67 on: March 29, 2014, 02:28:27 AM »

If most Eastern Orthodox use the Byzantine rite, do the Oriental Orthodox make use of all the other liturgies I hear about? Or do we have many dormant liturgies out there?

Depends...what are "all the other liturgies" you're hearing about?  Smiley

Quote
Even though I know offices of prayer are probably a later development, I've become far more attached to the divine office than any prayer book I've had. I want to collect and study as many as I can.  Smiley Thanks for all your help.

I suppose "offices of prayer" can be said to be a later development, if understood in a particular way.  But the concept of keeping certain moments of the day as moments of prayer can be seen in the book of Acts, so in general, it's not a later development, it's part and parcel of the worship of Christianity from its beginnings. 

In my experience, once you begin to use the daily Office, you don't really go back to prayer books and other aids regularly.  The Office has everything we need. 

I agree! There's is so much food in the daily prayers in the office. I could literally spend hours if not days praying the prayers for even one major hour and studying all of the beauty and theology and meaning in it. In terms of liturgies, I am about as uneducated as you can get, but just the list of liturgies on the wikipedia page is huge: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_liturgy

If Catholics only use the EF and OF, and Orthodox only use the liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, what about the liturgies of St. James and St. Basil, St. Tikhon and St. Gregory, the Gallican Rite and the Celtic Rite, are they all just not practiced? That would strike me as a loss to the Christian community.  Embarrassed
Logged
LBK
Warned
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 11,267


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #68 on: March 29, 2014, 03:49:33 AM »

If most Eastern Orthodox use the Byzantine rite, do the Oriental Orthodox make use of all the other liturgies I hear about? Or do we have many dormant liturgies out there?

Depends...what are "all the other liturgies" you're hearing about?  Smiley

Quote
Even though I know offices of prayer are probably a later development, I've become far more attached to the divine office than any prayer book I've had. I want to collect and study as many as I can.  Smiley Thanks for all your help.

I suppose "offices of prayer" can be said to be a later development, if understood in a particular way.  But the concept of keeping certain moments of the day as moments of prayer can be seen in the book of Acts, so in general, it's not a later development, it's part and parcel of the worship of Christianity from its beginnings. 

In my experience, once you begin to use the daily Office, you don't really go back to prayer books and other aids regularly.  The Office has everything we need. 

I agree! There's is so much food in the daily prayers in the office. I could literally spend hours if not days praying the prayers for even one major hour and studying all of the beauty and theology and meaning in it. In terms of liturgies, I am about as uneducated as you can get, but just the list of liturgies on the wikipedia page is huge: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_liturgy

If Catholics only use the EF and OF, and Orthodox only use the liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, what about the liturgies of St. James and St. Basil, St. Tikhon and St. Gregory, the Gallican Rite and the Celtic Rite, are they all just not practiced? That would strike me as a loss to the Christian community.  Embarrassed

The Orthodox Church indeed uses the Liturgy of St Basil. It is held ten times a year: on the feastday of St Basil the Great (January 1), on the Sundays of Great Lent, on the eves of the Nativity and Theophany, and twice during Holy Week.

The Liturgy of St James is held on the feastday of the saint; the vesperal Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts, held on Wednesdays and Fridays of Great Lent, is attributed to St Gregory the Dialogist.
Logged
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 17,974


The Pope Emeritus reading OCNet


WWW
« Reply #69 on: March 29, 2014, 11:43:10 AM »

If Catholics only use the EF and OF, and Orthodox only use the liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, what about the liturgies of St. James and St. Basil, St. Tikhon and St. Gregory, the Gallican Rite and the Celtic Rite, are they all just not practiced? That would strike me as a loss to the Christian community.  Embarrassed

"Catholics" use the EF and OF of the Roman rite, but also in use today are some local rites (Ambrosian in Milan, both "EF" and "OF", Mozarabic in Toledo, "OF" and maybe "EF", and Bragan in Portugal, "EF"), rites of religious orders (e.g., Carmelite, Dominican, Praemonstratensian, Carthusian), the "Anglican" rite used by the Ordinariates, and also forms of just about every extant Eastern rite. 

Eastern Orthodox mostly use the Byzantine rite: in terms of the Liturgy, this means primarily St John Chrysostom's, but also St Basil's, the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts (during Lent), and, more rarely, St James'.   There are Western Rite communities which use their own Liturgies.

Oriental Orthodox use primarily four rites spread over about six or seven Churches, but there's a bit more to it than that. 
Logged

Still posting.

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


Mor Ephrem > Justin Kissel
Keelin
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian - Inquirer
Posts: 70



« Reply #70 on: March 30, 2014, 03:54:44 AM »

Brilliant. I'm actually quite happy to hear they're still practiced.  Smiley

You two are veritable founts of knowledge.
Logged
Jonathan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 805


WWW
« Reply #71 on: March 30, 2014, 08:08:05 AM »

In the Coptic rite do they not cycle through the Psalms? Psalmody takes precedence in my prayers. For feast days I often read the section on the particular Saint after I finish the body of prayers. I pray the psalms from the four week ordinary cycle and include the readings, intercession, and ending prayer from the common of seasons. On solemnities such as today (annunciation!!) I make an exception and take all the psalms, readings, intercessions, prayer, everything from either the common of saints or the section devoted to solemnities. However, psalms are the focus.

The Coptic Hours do not cycle through the Psalter as best I can tell.  Each hour has twelve Psalms (an ancient monastic feature) as well as some Scripture readings and prayers.  But some Psalms are repeated, and others are not used at all, in the course of the day.  I suppose there's nothing stopping someone in his own private practice from figuring out a way to cycle through the Psalms in the book over the course of a week or two and incorporate the missing Psalms, but I don't know if there's an official way to do that.  Maybe some Copts will read this and fill in the blanks for us. 
[/quote]

The Copts have the Agpeya = book of the hours = horologion. It consists of 7 or 8 canonical hours consisting of ~12 psalms each, a gospel reading, troparia, and other prayers such as the prayer of thanksgiving, the gloria, the trisagion, an absolution, etc. It is entirely fixed, never changing except during Pascha week.

But there is also the Psalmody. It consists of several canticles, seasonal doxologies, daily and seasonal palis, theotokias, etc.

Right now, the Psalmody consists of evening praise, midnight praise, and morning praise. But the midnight praise used to be the midnight hour and lauds, but has since been fused. The canticles are fixed, and the rest varies by season and day.

The Midnight Praise is the closest equivalent to EO Matins, as far as I can tell.

There is also the evening and morning raising of incense, which have no EO equivalent.

So basically go get the fixed and variable to be more equivalent to the EO hours, you need the agpeya/horologion and the psalmody. But taking all of it is a lot, more than the monks do. You need to find some reasonable subset of everything possible.

Logged
frjohnmorris
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 1,177


« Reply #72 on: April 02, 2014, 11:48:03 PM »

I just recently acquired the 4 volume Liturgy of the Hours...pray for me that I can figure it all out!  Roll Eyes

The Catholic Book Publishing Company publishes the 4 vol set.  They also publish a little Ordo or calendar that makes it easy.  There are also some summary "cheat sheets" to help you get started.

I bought the set many years ago and have used it from time to time such as Advent and Lent.  It is easy to figure out.

My main problem with the LOTH is that they suppressed Prime along with the great Athanasian Creed.  Also ICEL language is not my favorite.  They did not use the imprecation psalms--I guess you can't consider it prayer when you pray to the Lord to smite your enemies to smithereens!--either, too un-PC!

At least one good thing the Consilium did (I'm not fan of the Consilium due to the Novus Ordo Missae!) is make the LOTH available to the laity.  Although I prefer the Latin Mass I also prefer a vernacular Breviary/Horologion and vernacular sacraments, provided that vernacular has not been butchered by the International Commission for the Emasculation of Language [ICEL].

Jim C.


The Western Rite of the Antiochian Archdiocese uses the Pre Vatican II Benedictine breviary in traditional English. They publish it in a two volume set one for Matins and the Monastic Diurnal which can be bought from the Lancelot Andrewes Press which publishes Western Rite Orthodox Books. http://www.andrewespress.com/   

Fr. John W. Morris
Logged
Christopher McAvoy
Never forget the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate & all persecuted christians!
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: orthodóxis, atque cathólice et apostólice fídei
Jurisdiction: Latin Catholic from the 12th c.
Posts: 443



WWW
« Reply #73 on: April 04, 2014, 12:47:35 AM »

I do not like the RC Liturgy of the Hours, at all. I believe that it is a deformed office book, being that it was invented in 1973.
The translation of it is paraphrased and inaccurate in many areas. The psalms have many errors compared to vulgate/septuagint orthodox or older catholic texts. The english hymns for it, which are simply protestant hymns that apparently don't conflict with the catholics dogmas, which the norm to this day in north america, are lacking in depth to John Mason Neale or the latin originals.

The Latin version of the 1973 Liturgy of the Hours is better, but even here the inverted concept of  "lex orandi/lex credendi"  that "the liturgy should reflect new theological paradigms" and the Church shapes the liturgy, rather than the liturgy shaping the church, takes center change.

I found it highly disturbing that a particular western rite orthodox priest continues to use the 1973 book for his private office.

The Latin tradition of Divine Office is somewhat simple, therefore, if you do not make the most of something this simple, it is quite embarrassing. Ultimately I concluded that it was made mediocre intentionally.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2014, 12:51:40 AM by Christopher McAvoy » Logged

"and for all who are Orthodox, and who hold the Catholic and Apostolic Faith, remember, O Lord, thy servants" - yet the post-conciliar RC hierarchy is tolerant of everyone and everything... except Catholic Tradition, for modernists are as salt with no taste, to be “thrown out and trampled under foot
Christopher McAvoy
Never forget the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate & all persecuted christians!
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: orthodóxis, atque cathólice et apostólice fídei
Jurisdiction: Latin Catholic from the 12th c.
Posts: 443



WWW
« Reply #74 on: April 04, 2014, 01:47:09 AM »

Instead of the Liturgy of the Hours, Ideally Roman Catholics should use the a historic medieval office book of their ancestors.
A large percentage of this book matches the ordo and propers for the Dominican rite. The similarity exists because it was based on that of northern french canons of french cathedrals, whereas the Salisbury use was influenced by Canons Regular in England. The main difference being that the Dominican had newer feasts for dominican saints added, and also had a small amount of alteration after the council of trent, but not to any level as serious as the regular Tridentine Roman Rite Office as used by the time of the 20th century, which itself was altered in the 1909. The Dominican is comparatively pristine compared to that.

This is what I use for the Office.
http://app.box.com/s/v3rxz8w1dua0fwyo89nj
The Order of Vespers throughout the year from the Salisbury use by Rev. G.H. Palmer (1934).pdf
http://app.box.com/s/3u2obptbtj3s5hlq24i1
Eight Ancient Fauxbourdons;  Set to the Song of the Blessed Virgin Mary, in English (2014-1912).pdf (Magnificat)
http://app.box.com/s/88xdw0t3fbdm0tw7o9tb
The Order of Vespers - A Psalter for Prayer by David James (adapted to the 1534 Sarum Use, Roman Rite).pdf (This is currently being completed, this is the bare bones psalms for vespers for the days of the week. I hope to complete this Psalter for Lauds and Vespers by this summer. It will also contain the litany and traditional final antiphons and prayers at the end, in side by side latin and english)

In the Sarum use one uses the same psalms for week days no matter what feast occurs. Only the "Great Feasts" such as of the Assumption, All Saints, Nativity and Apostles will use different psalms. This makes this office easier to keep up with with for the average person. It is in fact easier than later offices of the 20th century 1950's Roman rite as intended for diocesan priests. Even though its propers are slightly more elaborate, the rubrics and changes are easier.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2014, 01:50:48 AM by Christopher McAvoy » Logged

"and for all who are Orthodox, and who hold the Catholic and Apostolic Faith, remember, O Lord, thy servants" - yet the post-conciliar RC hierarchy is tolerant of everyone and everything... except Catholic Tradition, for modernists are as salt with no taste, to be “thrown out and trampled under foot
Keelin
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian - Inquirer
Posts: 70



« Reply #75 on: April 25, 2014, 03:50:27 AM »

Hey Christopher, maybe you can clarify for me. I Heard that the old Roman LOTH is still technically the divine office of the Roman Catholic Church, even if the newly composed one is more popular. I was also told that it was almost entirely composed by Bugnini, an alleged Mason.

While I'm still praying it, I can't help but feel kind of unsettled now, and prefer spending time with my 1962 missal.
Logged
Christopher McAvoy
Never forget the Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate & all persecuted christians!
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: orthodóxis, atque cathólice et apostólice fídei
Jurisdiction: Latin Catholic from the 12th c.
Posts: 443



WWW
« Reply #76 on: April 25, 2014, 02:36:55 PM »

yes, that is true, but as I say the 1962 dominican breviary has had less alteration than the regular early 60's breviaries. The dominican is remained the closest to the medieval form, hymns, proper antiphons and psalm number and layout remained unchanged the longests. Office books from before 1909 are generally better than those after.
Logged

"and for all who are Orthodox, and who hold the Catholic and Apostolic Faith, remember, O Lord, thy servants" - yet the post-conciliar RC hierarchy is tolerant of everyone and everything... except Catholic Tradition, for modernists are as salt with no taste, to be “thrown out and trampled under foot
frjohnmorris
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 1,177


« Reply #77 on: April 25, 2014, 03:02:50 PM »

yes, that is true, but as I say the 1962 dominican breviary has had less alteration than the regular early 60's breviaries. The dominican is remained the closest to the medieval form, hymns, proper antiphons and psalm number and layout remained unchanged the longests. Office books from before 1909 are generally better than those after.

Someone gave me a copy of the new Roman Catholic daily office. The translations are terrible and destroy the beauty of the older translations like those used in the Monastic Diurnal and the Monastic Breviary Matins based on the Benedictine traditions and published by the Lancelot Andrewes Press which publishes books for the Antiochian Western Rite.

Fr. John W. Morris
« Last Edit: April 25, 2014, 03:04:52 PM by frjohnmorris » Logged
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,306


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #78 on: April 25, 2014, 03:08:04 PM »

yes, that is true, but as I say the 1962 dominican breviary has had less alteration than the regular early 60's breviaries. The dominican is remained the closest to the medieval form, hymns, proper antiphons and psalm number and layout remained unchanged the longests. Office books from before 1909 are generally better than those after.

Someone gave me a copy of the new Roman Catholic daily office. The translations are terrible and destroy the beauty of the older translations like those used in the Monastic Diurnal and the Monastic Breviary Matins based on the Benedictine traditions and published by the Lancelot Andrewes Press which publishes books for the Antiochian Western Rite.

Fr. John W. Morris

Yes, I have seen these translations. Ever since 1973, the translations in use by the Roman Catholic Church are awful, simply awful.
Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
Tags:
Pages: 1 2 All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.204 seconds with 105 queries.