Topic: Any suggestions?

[Mickey]

It seems that anything on television that I screen for my toddler (cartoons, children shows) always has some type of magic or spell-casting (especially Disney). Even "winnie the pooh" cartoon had an episode about casting spells. Where does the Orthodox Church stand on such things and are there any comments for wholesome children shows?

[EofK]

It does seem like there's a trend toward magic and spells and such these days, especially with the popularity of Harry Potter.  I can't say for certain the Orthodox recommendation on how much is too much or anything like that, but you might like the Veggie Tales videos.  To my knowledge they've never had anything to do with magic and they teach biblical stories.  The catch is that they're from a Protestant perspective so you might screen them just for the sake of not introducing heresy to your children.  It's been years since I've seen them so I can't really remember much about them except for the Silly Songs with Larry. 

What are your children's ages?  Sometimes programming for younger kids is a little less controversial but if it's too elementary your kids might be bored with it, too, so I'll try to tailor my recommendations to age groups.    (Note, though, that I only have one living child who is 10 months old so my knowledge of children's programming is a little scant at the moment.)

[Quinault]

I know that many families tend to think that all things Disney are OK. I have actually found that my worst problems are with that channel. Shows that tend to be OK are;

Old Blues Clues (Steve era)
Dora the explorer (although I would really screen these since there are a few that are "magical")
Yo Gabba Gabba (if you can stand listening to it that is)
Lazy Towne (once again, if you can stand it)
SpongeBob (toilet type humor aside)
Ni Hao Kai-lan
The Backyardigans (there is the ocassional magic reference, but it is basically about a group of friends that pretend to be different things in their backyard).
Wonderpets (pretty inane viewing)
Max and Ruby (the stereotype of a stupid and annoying younger brother with a bossy older sister irks me, so they don't watch this much).
Go Diego Go (it is alright, but I can't stand to watch it).

[Nigula Qian Zishi]

I know that many families tend to think that all things Disney are OK. I have actually found that my worst problems are with that channel. Shows that tend to be OK are;

Old Blues Clues (Steve era)
Dora the explorer (although I would really screen these since there are a few that are "magical")
Lazy Towne (once again, if you can stand it)
SpongeBob (toilet type humor aside)
Ni Hao Kai-lan

Go Diego Go (it is alright, but I can't stand to watch it).

NiHao Kai-Lan is very good and teaches kids some Mandarin Chinese. With China being the next major superpower, knowing the language will be very important for business success for our children's generation.

[orthodoxlurker]

Mickey, glad to see you around, bro.

I'm afraid we can't protect our kids from such influences. We should limit the daily/weekly time of exposition to it.

I'd advise counter fight with reading/speaking stories to children, playing with them, hogging them and kissing. Not necessarily great amount of time, but focused on it when you are together.

Some small icons and a cross around helps, too.

[Riddikulus]

It seems that anything on television that I screen for my toddler (cartoons, children shows) always has some type of magic or spell-casting (especially Disney). Even "winnie the pooh" cartoon had an episode about casting spells. Where does the Orthodox Church stand on such things and are there any comments for wholesome children shows?

I don't believe that the Orthodox Church comments on make-believe magic, but is concerned with the real thing. Therefore, I tend to see opportunities for good with these kinds of programmes; to explain to our children (according to age, of course) what real witchcraft and sorcery, etc is. For instance, when Harry Potter came out, my elder granddaughter had just discovered the joy of reading and she came to me very excited about this new book that one of her aunties had bought her for Christmas. She had read it and encouraged me to read it. I approached it with caution, as I think is wise to do, but on reading it, I found myself quite at ease with her continuing to read the books; even to the point where I have become a great fan and have been seen waiting in line with other eager readers as each new book has arrived in the bookstores.

Please understand that I'm not advocating that everyone should read Harry Potter, because I know that many people are sensitive to the contents and choice of reading material is a very personal thing. I'm just explaining how I handle these sorts of issues in the hope that it might help you with regard to tv programmes that contain make-believe magic.

Anyway, the most interesting thing that came out of the whole Harry Potter experience was I realised that I knew very little about the real witchcraft and sorcery that the bible warned against; so I made a point of finding out; with granddaughter in tow. By the time we had finished our brief excusion to discover just really what the "Dark Side" was all about, we were both felt that we were much better equipped to identify real-life witchcraft etc as opposed to panicking needlessly over make-believe magic and stories based on folklore. I do believe that honesty with children is the absolute best policy and bringing them up to fear make-believe magic is not going to help them to recognise the much more subtle dangers of real witchcraft, etc.

Just my tuppence worth.

[Son of Man]

Is the position of the Church that magic in cartoons is bad because it's a false magic, or that it really exists but is evil?

In either case, these cartoons are just a small sample of what the children will be learning when they talk to other children and experience the real world.  The cartoons could be used to teach the kids what the parents want them to know about magic.  It would also be an excellent opportunity to let the children know that what they see on tv isn't necessarily true or right.

[Quinault]

I don't think magic is bad. But I think that it should be introduced at older ages.

[ytterbiumanalyst]

The commercialism of Disney is far more destructive than its portrayal of magic.

[Heorhij]

Mickey, glad to see you around, bro.

I'm afraid we can't protect our kids from such influences. We should limit the daily/weekly time of exposition to it.

I'd advise counter fight with reading/speaking stories to children, playing with them, hogging them and kissing. Not necessarily great amount of time, but focused on it when you are together.

Some small icons and a cross around helps, too.

Agree with every word!

[Quinault]

The commercialism of Disney is far more destructive than its portrayal of magic.

Actually the worst part is the kids attitudes. The disrespect for parents and out and out disobedience that many of the characters portray is quite distructive.

To some extent there is less commericalism since there aren't many commericals at all to speak of on the channel during the showtimes for the 4 and under crowd. And the shows on thereafter have less commercials than any other channel that isn't a "premium" channel. Heck, everytime my kids watched a Blues Clues video we had to deal with the "please buy me Charlie Brown" commercials at the beginning of each video.

[ytterbiumanalyst]

Commercialism is not limited to advertisements. I'm talking more about the books, DVDs, stuffed creatures, etc. that every kid must have because they like the television show. Disney turns every halfway decent idea into a new market to exploit.

[Mickey]

Mickey, glad to see you around, bro.

I'm afraid we can't protect our kids from such influences. We should limit the daily/weekly time of exposition to it.

I'd advise counter fight with reading/speaking stories to children, playing with them, hogging them and kissing. Not necessarily great amount of time, but focused on it when you are together.

Some small icons and a cross around helps, too.

Thank you everyone for your wise advice. My daughter is almost 2.5 yrs old.
I think orthodoxlurker's advice is best suited for me and my family. We have icons and crosses on virtually every empty space of our home. 

It seems that more reading and family activities will be best. I have been thinking about cancelling my cable for the past six months. I will keep the DVD player and purchase shows that are wholesome and teach good morals (if I can find any). I am not a scrupulous individual, but something rubs me the wrong way about indoctrinating our children into a culture "casting spells" from their infancy.

P.S--Her favorite movie right now is "Ostrov". She always requests it! 

[Heorhij]

^I used to read a lot to my daughter when she was 2.5, and so did her mom. She liked watching cartoons on the TV, but listening to us read her stories was her most favorite thing. I remember how she used to almost torrment me, running after me when I came from work, shaking her favorite book in the air and shouting at the top of her little lungs, "Read, daddy, read, read, read!!!!!!!!"

[livefreeordie]

A little encouragement, we have 5 kids, ages 14 months to 9 years old.  We don't let them watch any TV when they are young, and we don't have cable, etc. only an antenna and VCR.  When they turn about 3 or 4 we let them pick out a movie to watch on Sunday's.  And now we'll let the oldest watch some sports since they are playing sports themselves. They never knew any better and to this day they all sit around and read, play, etc. without any "I want to watch TV" complaints.

[EofK]

Ok, here's my slightly more expanded list:

Blue Clues (I prefer the Steve era as Quinalt mentioned, but Joe is ok too... just dorkier)
Zaboomafoo (a wildlife show with two brothers hosting and a lemur puppet)
The Mr. Men Show (probably better for older kids; it kind of reminds me of Looney Tunes)
Ni Hao, Kai Lan (nice to see Mandarin Chinese as a second language because children's programming usually only features Spanish)
The Wiggles (if you can stand to hear to infinity a handful of corny songs)
Word World (a phonics show with animals and objects made out of words; pretty cute)
Between the Lions (a beginner reading and phonics show which I hear is frequently used in kindergarten classrooms)
Reading Rainbow (one I grew up with and one of my favorites)
Sesame Street (I've always loved the variety of things they do on SS, but I can't stand Elmo)

Most of those are on PBS, but Blues Clues and Ni Hao, Kai Lan are on Nick Jr. while Mr. Men is Cartoon Network and The Wiggles are Disney, I believe.  As far as I know those shows are fairly tame.  I do agree with Orthodoxlurker and Heorhij that it may be in your best interest to read and discuss with your daughter.  The current round of experts out there suggest no TV for kids under 2-3 anyway, but I tend to take the latest "expert" advice with a grain of salt.  In any case, reading to her is a good thing anyway.    Hope this helps! 

[EofK]

NiHao Kai-Lan is very good and teaches kids some Mandarin Chinese. With China being the next major superpower, knowing the language will be very important for business success for our children's generation.

I agree, I think it's great they're teaching some Mandarin Chinese.  I'd like to see more shows offering a variety of languages, such as French, Japanese, and even Farsi. 

[Mickey]

Sesame Street (I've always loved the variety of things they do on SS, but I can't stand Elmo)

I would add a warning about sesame street. I have seen episodes where they treat homosexuality as an accepted norm. One time, I was watching Elmo with my daughter--it was an episode on families. One of the families they showed was two gay men and their children. I threw the DVD in the garbage.

[EofK]

Sesame Street (I've always loved the variety of things they do on SS, but I can't stand Elmo)

I would add a warning about sesame street. I have seen episodes where they treat homosexuality as an accepted norm. One time, I was watching Elmo with my daughter--it was an episode on families. One of the families they showed was two gay men and their children. I threw the DVD in the garbage.

They do try to be on the cutting edge and include everyone who is part of a family without judgement as to what a family should be.  In somes ways I think that's a good thing.  There are indeed children who grow up with gay parents and I don't think it's fair for those children to be condemned for something that's beyond their control.  At the same time, though, I wouldn't want to say that that's an ideal situation for the child.  That's a sticky situation to be in, both for the child in question and for us parents who don't want to seem like we're saying homosexuality is ok. 

[Quinault]

Reading Rainbow also reads books like "Heather has two mommies."

Mr.Y; if you don't tell the kids that there are endless toys associated with a show, they don't know for many, many, many years. And by then you innoculate them agaist being a mindless commercial drone.

[Quinault]

The problem is that homosexuality and divorce are introduced earlier and earlier. I do want my kids to know about those subjects. But I want it to come when they are older and can understand. I don't think there is a set age when a child is ready for that. My eldest at nearly 7, likely won't be ready for the idea of homosexuality for at least a year or more. She is still wrapping her head around the idea that her grandpa is not my actual biologiocal father. And further we are dealing with Aunt Tama no longer being Aunt Tama, now we have Aunt Andrea.

With her father gone for the next year we are holding off going into the whole divorce concept until he is back and adjusted. Otherwise she will be fearful of my husband and I divorcing. (there is typically little to no arguing/friction ever between my husband and I, but inevitably there is some as we adjust back to the "new" spouse we have on reintroduction. I am happy to say no one has ever slept on the couch ).

[EofK]

The problem is that homosexuality and divorce are introduced earlier and earlier. I do want my kids to know about those subjects. But I want it to come when they are older and can understand. I don't think there is a set age when a child is ready for that. My eldest at nearly 7, likely won't be ready for the idea of homosexuality for at least a year or more. She is still wrapping her head around the idea that her grandpa is not my actual biologiocal father. And further we are dealing with Aunt Tama no longer being Aunt Tama, now we have Aunt Andrea.

With her father gone for the next year we are holding off going into the whole divorce concept until he is back and adjusted. Otherwise she will be fearful of my husband and I divorcing. (there is typically little to no arguing/friction ever between my husband and I, but inevitably there is some as we adjust back to the "new" spouse we have on reintroduction. I am happy to say no one has ever slept on the couch ).

I agree with you, I do think that difficult subjects should be approached at an appropriate age.  It is really hard to understand family relationships to begin with, let alone when they change.  Caitlin is one of the few kids to have both mom and dad together and have both sets of grandparents still married so we might have some extra explaining to do there... kind of strange when you have to explain what used to be the norm as an anomaly.

(Edited for clarity.)

[Quinault]

I still recall thinking my uncle and aunt were married because they always came to family reunions together. But they were brother and sister, not husband and wife. I don't think I fully understood that until I was about 10 or so. And my aunt had a son that my uncle played with alot. So it was really confusing. Come to think of it, I never met my cousin's father.

[EofK]

My family didn't really have any confusing divorce/remarriage kind of things but I had so many aunts, uncles, and a bazillion cousins that I never knew who was whose brother, who was my second cousin twice removed, who was cousin so-and-so's parents, etc.  My family is really secretive about family drama, too, so I only just found out about land disputes, illegitimate children, and one great aunt who was apparently quite fond of the milkmen.   

[ytterbiumanalyst]

Reading Rainbow also reads books like "Heather has two mommies."

That's because she does. Do you really think your kids are never going to meet anyone with a family like that?

Mr.Y; if you don't tell the kids that there are endless toys associated with a show, they don't know for many, many, many years. And by then you innoculate them agaist being a mindless commercial drone.

True. I'm just saying that lust is not the only sort of evil that can be promulgated by television. Greed is frequently portrayed, and it's never subject to the ratings system.

[Quinault]

Mr. Y, sometimes posting to you is like posting to a petulant 2 year old..... Read my post after that one. I haven't ever said my kids will never hear about homosexuality. I just want to wait to explain that until they are old enough to take the info in without confusion. I have been in ECE longer than you have been teaching, I know what info like this does to kids before they are ready. Do you?

[Quinault]

Disney couldn't destroy My neighbor Totoro or Kiki's delivery service with toys and such since Miyazaki wouldn't give up licensing. Kiki deals with magic, I love the movie but I waited to let my eldest watch it until she was old enough to understand it was all pretend.

They had a My neighbor Totoro day at our childrens museum one year. I just had Oheo and she absolutely loved it! We were able to get inside the Cat-bus! It was so fun!

[ytterbiumanalyst]

Mr. Y, sometimes posting to you is like posting to a petulant 2 year old..... Read my post after that one. I haven't ever said my kids will never hear about homosexuality. I just want to wait to explain that until they are old enough to take the info in without confusion. I have been in ECE longer than you have been teaching, I know what info like this does to kids before they are ready. Do you?

I will ignore the ad hominem.

I have been teaching since 2003, and I have yet to see anyone harmed by teaching them the reality that other people's families can be different from their own.

[Quinault]

Do you teach children from the ages of 0-6?

[Quinault]

I have worked in ECE either as a teacher in the classroom or with my own kids since 1998.

[ytterbiumanalyst]

Do you teach children from the ages of 0-6?

Yes, not that that's relevant.

[ytterbiumanalyst]

I have worked in ECE either as a teacher in the classroom or with my own kids since 1998.

Good for you, again not that that's relevant.

[Quinault]

Do you even know what ECE means? If you don't, it really is better to ask then to trudge ahead.

[Quinault]

Do you teach children from the ages of 0-6?

Yes, not that that's relevant.

It is as relevant as you saying you have been teaching since 2003.

And just so you know, Sunday school is not ECE.

[ytterbiumanalyst]

^ I believe you are referring to early childhood education.

[ytterbiumanalyst]

It is as relevant as you saying you have been teaching since 2003.

That was relevant to your assertion that you have been teaching longer than I have. I did not know if you actually knew how long I have been teaching, so I provided that information. Our length of service is irrelevant to this discussion.

[Quinault]

The context of this thread is television programming for young children. You are stating that kids need to learn about homosexuality. I am saying that it needs to wait until they are older. So is your opinion that a 2-4 year old should know about various sexual practices? I have seen that thought process in action firsthand. And it is extraordinarily damaging.

[ytterbiumanalyst]

Sigh. I did not say they need to know about homosexuality, or heterosexuality for that matter. I said they need to know that other people's families are different: Some have a mommy and a stepdaddy, some have a daddy and a stepmommy, some have two grandparents, and some have two mommies. Seriously, I have better luck getting through to my teenagers.

[Quinault]

And I have been teaching ECE longer than you have been teaching whatever grade you do. ECE, not middle school. Although I did teach grade school and middle school classes for a year or two thru an afterschool program. But I would hardly say that qualifies me to say how to run whatever class you teach. You seem to presume to know what a child under 6 should or should not know about sex and marriage. I think you have no idea how damaging telling a child that is too young about these sorts of things.

A well meaning mother told her son that a certain type of sex associated with male homosexuality was a form of birth control used by married couples when he was about my daughters age.  He learned about sex all in one big session rather than spacing it out over a period of time determined by readiness.

[Quinault]

Sigh. I did not say they need to know about homosexuality, or heterosexuality for that matter. I said they need to know that other people's families are different: Some have a mommy and a stepdaddy, some have a daddy and a stepmommy, some have two grandparents, and some have two mommies. Seriously, I have better luck getting through to my teenagers.

No, you stated:
"That's because she does. Do you really think your kids are never going to meet anyone with a family like that?"

Which implies that kids need to know about it watching Reading Rainbow. That is the sort of topic parents should be able to discuss with their children, not something they should watch on television. You didn't mention grandparents, step parents, single parents or any other combination. And the Heather has two mommies book is pretty graphic for the under 6 age range. I recall I had to read it while I was teaching at a school. The parents of the kids knew that sort of book was in the regular rotation of the library, so they had a choice to ask that their kids would not be taught about homosexuality.

As far as different types of families, there are much, much better books out there on the subject than the Heather one.

[Quinault]

I can understand broaching the subjects of divorce and homosexuality in a large classroom situation. So from 7 years of age on in a school setting it is fine. But Reading Rainbow is not designed solely for that age bracket. I recall watching it when I was 2-3. There is no warning at the begining of the television show that they will broach the subject. Any other TV program for adults that deals with homosexuality even slightly carries a parental advisory. Somehow childrens television programming does not.

[Asteriktos]

Now that we have a child in pre-school, it's becoming more apparent to us that we can't really shield our kids from things. Unless we force them to live in a bubble, they're going to find out about things that we would have preferred that they didn't. It's just a matter of time. The most we can do is teach them what we think is right, and hope that the good outweighs the bad. As far as children's programming, our kids seem to like the Sprout programming (Caillou, Zoboomafoo, etc.), though I haven't watched enough to know that every episode agrees with my own beliefs.

[Quinault]

Oh, and when I read the books about homosexuality I was sure to have the kids ask more indepth questions of their parents rather than me. That way my personal beliefs wouldn't be forced on the family thru their child.

[EofK]

^Well said, Asteriktos.  We can't shield them forever and I wouldn't want Caitlin to be totally ignorant of everything, either.  

As far as teaching our kids about homosexuality and different family structures, there's no reason at all to mention the actual sexual practices when discussing gay parents.  So Heather has two mommies.  Leave it at that.  I've not read the book so I don't know how graphic it is, but if it's not acceptable for younger kids, then turn it off.  Chances are kids 2-3 years old aren't going to understand what they're talking about anyway.  

[Quinault]

Oh, it would be nice if you could just say that Heather has two mommies. But most kids don't let a statement like that go without many, many, many questions. And those questions always lead to the morality or lack thereof of the situation. Even the 3 year olds I taught came to that question quickly.