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Author Topic: Is leaving the Orthodox Church punishable by Death???  (Read 8035 times) Average Rating: 0
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Monk Vasyl
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« Reply #45 on: September 13, 2008, 08:11:09 PM »

Please do not confuse Orthodoxy with the Inquisition, where thousands of people were put to death for not becoming Catholic.

I was wondering if in Russia at the time of the Old Believers, is that sort of Inquistion like?  Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought Archpriest Avvacum was tortured.
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« Reply #46 on: September 13, 2008, 09:27:14 PM »

I would refer to the initial question, is apostasy punishable by death?

The answer is no, it has never been punishable by any kind of bodily harm, and we have no reference that it ever occured as a violation of those canons and the faith itself.

So would you say that both Marcion and Justinian who you praise as saints in the Church were in violation of canons and the faith?
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« Reply #47 on: September 13, 2008, 09:43:37 PM »

If we're gonna talk about the Chalcedonians killing the non-Chalcedonians, then we should also mention the non-Chalcedonians who did the same thing to the Chalcedonians in Syria. As far as I know, the reason why the Maronites fled to the mountains was because they were faithful adherants of Chalcedon, and the non-Chalcedonians in Syria were suppressing them, so they fled to the mountains where they got cut off from the Orthodox church all together, until the Crusades arrived on the scene...and the rest is history.

"Maron, a contemporary and friend of St. John Chrysostom, was a monk in the fourth century who left Antioch for the Orontes River to lead an ascetic life, following the traditions of Anthony the Great of the Desert and Pachomius. He soon had many followers that adopted his monastic life. Following the death of Maron in 410, his disciples built a monastery in his memory and formed the nucleus of the Maronite Church.

The Maronites held fast to the beliefs of the Council of Chalcedon in 451. When 350 monks were slain by the Monophysites of Antioch, the Maronites sought refuge in the mountains of Lebanon. Correspondence concerning the event brought papal and orthodox recognition of the Maronites which was solidified by Pope Hormisdas on February 10, 518."

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Maronite_Church&oldid=238184232
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« Reply #48 on: September 13, 2008, 09:49:10 PM »

If we're gonna talk about the Chalcedonians killing the non-Chalcedonians, then we should also mention the non-Chalcedonians who did the same thing to the Chalcedonians in Syria. As far as I know, the reason why the Maronites fled to the mountains was because they were faithful adherants of Chalcedon, and the non-Chalcedonians in Syria were suppressing them, so they fled to the mountains where they got cut off from the Orthodox church all together, until the Crusades arrived on the scene...and the rest is history.

"Maron, a contemporary and friend of St. John Chrysostom, was a monk in the fourth century who left Antioch for the Orontes River to lead an ascetic life, following the traditions of Anthony the Great of the Desert and Pachomius. He soon had many followers that adopted his monastic life. Following the death of Maron in 410, his disciples built a monastery in his memory and formed the nucleus of the Maronite Church.

The Maronites held fast to the beliefs of the Council of Chalcedon in 451. When 350 monks were slain by the Monophysites of Antioch, the Maronites sought refuge in the mountains of Lebanon. Correspondence concerning the event brought papal and orthodox recognition of the Maronites which was solidified by Pope Hormisdas on February 10, 518."

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Maronite_Church&oldid=238184232

But the question in the OP isn't regarding Non-Chalcedon Christians, but what has happened within the Orthodox Church. Perhaps, I'm cynical, but I doubt very much that anyone from any tradition can place their hand on their heart and, with a straight face, swear that their group alone is free of... "over-zealous", shall we say?... activities.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2008, 09:49:51 PM by Riddikulus » Logged

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« Reply #49 on: September 14, 2008, 12:15:15 AM »

If we're gonna talk about the Chalcedonians killing the non-Chalcedonians, then we should also mention the non-Chalcedonians who did the same thing to the Chalcedonians in Syria. As far as I know, the reason why the Maronites fled to the mountains was because they were faithful adherants of Chalcedon, and the non-Chalcedonians in Syria were suppressing them, so they fled to the mountains where they got cut off from the Orthodox church all together, until the Crusades arrived on the scene...and the rest is history.

"Maron, a contemporary and friend of St. John Chrysostom, was a monk in the fourth century who left Antioch for the Orontes River to lead an ascetic life, following the traditions of Anthony the Great of the Desert and Pachomius. He soon had many followers that adopted his monastic life. Following the death of Maron in 410, his disciples built a monastery in his memory and formed the nucleus of the Maronite Church.

The Maronites held fast to the beliefs of the Council of Chalcedon in 451. When 350 monks were slain by the Monophysites of Antioch, the Maronites sought refuge in the mountains of Lebanon. Correspondence concerning the event brought papal and orthodox recognition of the Maronites which was solidified by Pope Hormisdas on February 10, 518."

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Maronite_Church&oldid=238184232

Even though this is the first time I'm reading about this, frankly even if this is true, we do have to admit like Riddikulus said that no one has a clean history.  I even said in the beginning the fact that we commemorate St. Constantine is also another example, considering the fact he didn't do many nice things in his time.  So I'm sorry if I turned this into a Chalcedonian/non-Chalcedonian debate.  That was not my intention.

But in the spirit of Salpy, I'll also share with you another Chalcedonian who we praise as a saint in the Coptic Church.  St. John the Merciful/Almoner of the early seventh century.  He was a man who was filled with great piety and focused his pastoral work on the poor and eliminating corruption and simony in the Church.  He developed a great peaceful relationship with the non-Chalcedonians and through his pastoral work for the poor and afflicted, among those who were non-Chalcedonians.

He is considered as a saint in the Coptic Church even though he was a rival patriarch.

God bless.
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« Reply #50 on: September 14, 2008, 12:26:05 AM »

I have heard of what happened to the Maronites.  As I and others have noted, no one has clean hands. 

I do have to say, though, that this is the only event I have heard of where you see nonChalcedonians persecuting people over Chalcedon.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2008, 12:30:13 AM by Salpy » Logged

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« Reply #51 on: September 14, 2008, 01:34:05 AM »

The Church of England has felt it neccesarry to apologize to the departed Charles Darwin for the condemnations against the Scientific legacy in Britian. What the CoE had done was inconsequentially to be the first (and not the last ) church group to politicize Scientific inquiry. The many critiques of the CoE apology are the ones who are non-Christian who see it as pointless. The English Christians of Darwins day did what they did to silence critique and it Happened and Christians have to move on from it.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1055597/Church-makes--8216-ludicrous-8217-apology-Charles-Darwin--126-years-death.html


However my opinion would be appropiate for a non-Christian to peacefully "apostate" from the Church because clearly today's apostates have left due to to the Church-State entanglements of this era and not the past. So it is all the more critical for Theological Consultation be it Catholic-Orthodox, OO-EO and Ivy League-Church to have open discussion that helps bring back more sophisticated non-believers back to the fold. They would be all the more repentful and exhillarated that the faith can recieve derision by just someone's opinion and nothing else. Apostles would have been in agreement after converting Jews of their day and be ok with non-Christians.
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« Reply #52 on: September 14, 2008, 02:55:56 AM »

Here is the primary source for the massacre, for those interested (since Wikipedia isn't a source that inspires confidence). The Correspondence between the Monks of Syria Secunda and Pope St. Hormisdas:

Quote
Therefore also certain ones of those, who in no way endure the blows brought upon them have gone over because of this and our not so small number of people has in fact almost completely vanished. For when we were going to the pen of the Lord Simeon for the cause of the Church, they were lying in wait for us on the way as it had been announced, defiling us, and when they came upon us by surprise, they killed three hundred and fifty men from among us, certain ones they wounded; but others, who could take refuge to the venerable altars, they slayed there and set the monasteries on fire, inciting throughout the night a multitude of unsettled people and contractors and they were wasting all the poverty of the Church through destructive trouble makers of this kind. About the details, however, the writings may instruct your blessedness, which were brought over by the venerable brothers, John and Sergius, whom we had sent to Constantinople, because we believed that revenge might take place for those things which had been committed. Yet he did not think them worth a word, but rather he expelled them with great mistreatment and he violently threatened those, who would present these (things). Therefore it is from here that we, perhaps (too) late, know that all the depravity and recklessness of such evil people, which is committed against the churches, is arranged through his incitation.
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« Reply #53 on: September 14, 2008, 05:35:52 AM »

....

So would you say that both Marcion and Justinian who you praise as saints in the Church were in violation of canons and the faith?

I believe I've said enough, please don't make me be a judge.

While I can make some distinction, and even kind of justification, for an ambitious ruler who wanted to renew the Empire, so he seized some Church buildings, I can't find any kind of force, and even torture, to be in compliance with the Faith itself and with quoted article of Apostolic Canon (though the Canon has been formally incorporated on 6th Council). So, whomever had done it, in my opinion (and I'm just a grave sinner), did it in violation of Faith.
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« Reply #54 on: September 14, 2008, 06:08:28 AM »

....

So would you say that both Marcion and Justinian who you praise as saints in the Church were in violation of canons and the faith?

I believe I've said enough, please don't make me be a judge.

While I can make some distinction, and even kind of justification, for an ambitious ruler who wanted to renew the Empire, so he seized some Church buildings, I can't find any kind of force, and even torture, to be in compliance with the Faith itself and with quoted article of Apostolic Canon (though the Canon has been formally incorporated on 6th Council). So, whomever had done it, in my opinion (and I'm just a grave sinner), did it in violation of Faith.


And i agree100%.......SmileyCentral.com" border="0
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« Reply #55 on: September 14, 2008, 04:43:32 PM »

I also agree  Smiley

And I think it's encouraging that even in times of corruption and persecution there were also great people of great example working together for a true pastoral work of the people.

God bless.

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« Reply #56 on: September 14, 2008, 07:02:59 PM »

I can't find any kind of force, and even torture, to be in compliance with the Faith itself and with quoted article of Apostolic Canon

Canons are useless and meaningless if they are not enforced.  Were justinian or maurice ever condemned pursuant to the canons you quoted, for the atrocities they commited in the name of their church?
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« Reply #57 on: September 14, 2008, 08:13:30 PM »

....

So would you say that both Marcion and Justinian who you praise as saints in the Church were in violation of canons and the faith?

I believe I've said enough, please don't make me be a judge.

While I can make some distinction, and even kind of justification, for an ambitious ruler who wanted to renew the Empire, so he seized some Church buildings, I can't find any kind of force, and even torture, to be in compliance with the Faith itself and with quoted article of Apostolic Canon (though the Canon has been formally incorporated on 6th Council). So, whomever had done it, in my opinion (and I'm just a grave sinner), did it in violation of Faith.

Looking at it this way, couldn't Catholics make the same claim? It wasn't really their Church that instigated persecutions, but those Popes or Bishops who weren't adherring to canons, and who did so in violation of Faith; whether for ambition's sake, some revivalist dream to force conversion of pagans to create a solely Christian world, or the control-freak desire to save backsliders from themselves.
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« Reply #58 on: September 15, 2008, 04:44:59 AM »

...

Looking at it this way, couldn't Catholics make the same claim?
...

Of course they could, and they can. I personally believe we, as a whole, still wait them to come to their senses and do that.
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« Reply #59 on: September 15, 2008, 05:19:17 AM »


While I can make some distinction, and even kind of justification, for an ambitious ruler who wanted to renew the Empire, so he seized some Church buildings, I can't find any kind of force, and even torture, to be in compliance with the Faith itself and with quoted article of Apostolic Canon (though the Canon has been formally incorporated on 6th Council). So, whomever had done it, in my opinion (and I'm just a grave sinner), did it in violation of Faith.

...

Looking at it this way, couldn't Catholics make the same claim? It wasn't really their Church that instigated persecutions, but those Popes or Bishops who weren't adherring to canons, and who did so in violation of Faith; whether for ambition's sake, some revivalist dream to force conversion of pagans to create a solely Christian world, or the control-freak desire to save backsliders from themselves.
...

Of course they could, and they can. I personally believe we, as a whole, still wait them to come to their senses and do that.

 Huh The Catholic Church seems not to have tried to justify the issue of her "violations of Faith". In March 2000, Pope John PaulII publically asked God's forgiveness for the sins of Catholics throughout history; for the inquisition, the Crusades and the forced conversion of native peoples, the wrongs committed against women, Jews and minorities. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/674246.stm
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« Reply #60 on: September 16, 2008, 05:57:58 AM »

...

 Huh The Catholic Church seems not to have tried to justify the issue of her "violations of Faith". In March 2000, Pope John PaulII publically asked God's forgiveness for the sins of Catholics throughout history; for the inquisition, the Crusades and the forced conversion of native peoples, the wrongs committed against women, Jews and minorities. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/674246.stm

Orthodox don't fall in neither of the categories above.

Even if Orthodox could forget about "Blessed" Josafat Kuntsevich (and I can't), he didn't mention in March 2000 the fact that it was Vatican's Secretary of State, Cardinal Angelo Sodano, whom was the first state official among all states that proclaimed, on March 21 1999, that there were "crimes against unarmed civilians" committed in village Racak, province Kosovo, Republic Serbia, Yugoslavia, and called NATO to "disarm the aggressor" while it was clear he sees "the aggressor" is the official police and military of a sovereign state where massive crimes have been committed by KLA criminals. He said that a day before the statement of official team of Finnish pathologists, lead by Dr. Helena Ranta, was published. His interview to an Italian weekly was published in English at zenit.org , but it was now mysteriously missing not only there, but all archives searches have been cleansed of the trace of it, see: http://news.google.com/archivesearch?as_q=sodano+kosovo&num=10&btnG=Search+Archives&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_user_ldate=01%2F20%2F1999&as_user_hdate=03%2F23%2F1999&lr=&as_src=&as_price=p0&as_scoring= . Yet, there are references about that interview in several books, see http://www.google.com/books?q=sodano+kosovo&lr=&sa=N&start=0

Here is an article about Ranta's statement http://cgi.cnn.com/WORLD/europe/9903/17/kosovo.report.01/
in 1999, and here are the official minutes about her denial of it
http://www.un.org/icty/transe54/050412IT.htm
http://www.un.org/icty/transe54/050413IT.htm
some 6 years afterwards. That, of course, hasn't prevented "Western" "free-press" to keep silent about it, while a Finnish newspaper even lied she's been thoroughly examined by Milosevic, while in fact Cangaroo Court even didn't allow her witness http://www2.hs.fi/english/archive/news.asp?id=20030313IE2
.

So it appears Cardinal Sodano isn't clairvoyant than delusional.

And, of course, the Pope Voytila's "beastification" of Alojzije Stepinac http://www.ianpaisley.org/article.asp?ArtKey=stepinac
and visit to the Petricevac Monastery in 2003 http://emperors-clothes.com/analysis/pope.htm
when he implicitly justified that franciscan beast Fra Sotona  (the guy who baptized "Orthodox schismatic" child by slicing her throat by knife, as testified by a witness at his trial). Gentle from him he ordered Crusaders, err, "peacekeeping forces" in Bosnia to align Orthodox Bishops to greet him when he was there. He even demanded Serbian Patriach Pavle to be present, but he refused.

Apart from that, yes, I think Jews, minorities and women are grateful to him. What did he apologize to women for?

Edit: "addmited" replaced by "testified by a witness" regarding trial of Miroslav Filipovic-Majstorovic (a.k.a Fra Sotona).
« Last Edit: September 16, 2008, 07:08:05 AM by orthodoxlurker » Logged

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