Author Topic: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics  (Read 28629 times)

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Offline _Seraphim_

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #315 on: August 28, 2008, 08:02:26 PM »
So it's kinda like a verbal Ghostbusters ghost trap for GIC...interesting.  ;)



 ;D :D ;D
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Offline _Seraphim_

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #316 on: August 28, 2008, 08:02:57 PM »
(okay, now its over 7 pages  ;))
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Offline _Seraphim_

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #317 on: August 28, 2008, 08:04:02 PM »
I prefer to think of it as a "contained soap box".

Fantastic label!
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #318 on: August 28, 2008, 08:43:14 PM »
As for democracy, it's not an improvement, for freedom to exist the rights of the minority must be protected against the will of the majority...a pure democracy by no means ensures this.
Good point, but it's got me wondering how those rights should be determined. Any ideas?

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Offline GiC

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #319 on: August 28, 2008, 08:52:25 PM »
Good point, but it's got me wondering how those rights should be determined. Any ideas?

I've long argued that as many rights as can be given without causing the immediate (not eventual or moral) decline and destruction of the society should be granted. It seems to me to be reasonable to error on the side of liberty, for I don't want the masses dictating every detail of my life.
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #320 on: August 28, 2008, 09:05:15 PM »
I've long argued that as many rights as can be given without causing the immediate (not eventual or moral) decline and destruction of the society should be granted. It seems to me to be reasonable to error on the side of liberty, for I don't want the masses dictating every detail of my life.
Interesting. But why are rights which cause the eventual (but inevitable) demise of the society acceptable while those which have an immediate effect not included? Isn't it the same thing on a different time scale? Why should the time scale alone determine it's acceptability?
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Offline GiC

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #321 on: August 28, 2008, 09:14:56 PM »
Interesting. But why are rights which cause the eventual (but inevitable) demise of the society acceptable while those which have an immediate effect not included? Isn't it the same thing on a different time scale? Why should the time scale alone determine it's acceptability?

Because those things which many claim will cause the 'eventual' demise of society end up not being harmful at all. It was claimed at one point that Universal Sufferage would cause the eventual demise of society, today some claim gay marriage will...both are absurd claims, but both have been supported by the majority at some point in history. We simply have a hard enough time predicting what will happen next year without trying to predict things a century in advance.

Now there are some things that may not be of an importance of this scale which I may personally like to see restricted, but I also think it's important to have an objective standard, even if we don't like all the implications. If you have another objective test, I'm certainly open to it.
"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #322 on: August 28, 2008, 09:38:14 PM »
Because those things which many claim will cause the 'eventual' demise of society end up not being harmful at all. It was claimed at one point that Universal Sufferage would cause the eventual demise of society, today some claim gay marriage will...both are absurd claims, but both have been supported by the majority at some point in history. We simply have a hard enough time predicting what will happen next year without trying to predict things a century in advance.
That's not the type of causes of "eventual" demise I'm thinking of, because they are not really "inevitable" causes of the society's demise.
What I'm asking is: "What time scale is "immediate" as opposed to "eventual"?"

Now there are some things that may not be of an importance of this scale which I may personally like to see restricted, but I also think it's important to have an objective standard, even if we don't like all the implications. If you have another objective test, I'm certainly open to it.
If you don't distinguish between what is "eventual" and "immediate" with a clear time scale, then your test isn't "objective", but arbitrary.
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Offline GiC

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #323 on: August 28, 2008, 09:44:14 PM »
That's not the type of causes of "eventual" demise I'm thinking of, because they are not really "inevitable" causes of the society's demise.
What I'm asking is: "What time scale is "immediate" as opposed to "eventual"?"
If you don't distinguish between what is "eventual" and "immediate" with a clear time scale, then your test isn't "objective", but arbitrary.

Time frames I have given have defined immediate as being within a decade. I'm sure if murder or theft were allowed, it would probably undermine the state and society sooner than that...other things may be a bit more borderline.
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #324 on: August 28, 2008, 09:57:39 PM »
...other things may be a bit more borderline.
But a truly objective test has clear benchmarks/criteria. You have to be more specific with your time frame to exclude "borderline" cases.
For example, do I have the right to infect cicada pupae with a deadly virus which will kill everyone in your society when they emerge from the ground 17 years later? The effect is not "immediate" by your criteria, so haven't I got the freedom to do this?
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Offline GiC

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #325 on: August 28, 2008, 10:09:15 PM »
But a truly objective test has clear benchmarks/criteria. You have to be more specific with your time frame to exclude "borderline" cases.
For example, do I have the right to infect cicada pupae with a deadly virus which will kill everyone in your society when they emerge from the ground 17 years later? The effect is not "immediate" by your criteria, so haven't I got the freedom to do this?

I'm sure if I sat down and wrote a treatise on the subject I could better define those details, but, alas, that probably isn't happening tonight. What I posted was a general guiding principle about the theory of social contract. It is a mutually beneficial agreement to restrict some liberties, the restriction of which give greater benefit than cost to all the members of said contract. Ultimately, the benefit everyone gets from others not being able to kill them at random outweighs the cost of not being able to kill others at random. But history has shown that it is too easy to go from this to the protection of a few or one (say the land rights of the king) at the expense of the many (his subjects) or even undermine the rights of a few for the advancement of the majority (civil rights issues). The solution is to minimize the extent of liberty being restricted to only those that are fundamental to the social contract, which would be those liberties that, if not restricted, would without fail undermine the very point of having a social contract in the first place. But to even approach this questoin objectively one cannot allow the masses to theorize about how a certain behaviour or belief will eventually cause the demise of society, for the dangers of this are well documented. So one must restrict the threat to that which is immediate and definite but can also include things that are directly related to such dangers such as conspiracy...but to move to things that may be an indirect threat, like publically advocating the destruction of the social contract is probably going a bit too far.
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #326 on: August 28, 2008, 10:22:41 PM »
So one must restrict the threat to that which is immediate and definite but can also include things that are directly related to such dangers such as conspiracy...

So my cicadas have caused you to broaden your restrictions on freedom in your society Mr. Bond?....Let me see what else I can come up with....Mwah Ha Ha Ha!
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Offline GiC

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #327 on: August 29, 2008, 01:38:29 AM »
So my cicadas have caused you to broaden your restrictions on freedom in your society Mr. Bond?....Let me see what else I can come up with....Mwah Ha Ha Ha!

And you're shocked that the Reader's Digest version leaves out some details?
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Offline Quinault

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Re: GIC on judgment, faith, mathematics, and various other topics
« Reply #328 on: September 20, 2008, 11:10:05 PM »
I was watching "The Great Mouse Detective" with my kids this evening, and I swear I heard your voice GIC; "Article 96, a heavy tax shall be paid against all parasites and spongers. Including the elderly, the infirmed, and especially, heh heh, little children." (apparently you sound like Vincent Price).


http://disneyvillains.wikia.com/wiki/Professor_Ratigan
« Last Edit: September 20, 2008, 11:13:51 PM by Quinault »