Author Topic: The AOCC  (Read 78652 times)

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Offline Heracleides

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Re: The AOCC
« Reply #180 on: October 02, 2008, 10:40:51 PM »
 For violating two oc.net rules.  Originally reminded in public to be kind and respectful towards AOCC Bishop.  Violating oc.net rules poster called out moderator (where the rules inform the poster to use private messaging). 

Whatever - You could have asked me to treat this 'bishop' with more kindness & consideration in private, but did not. If I am called out in public, I will respond in public.  If I am sanctioned again for responding in kind, so be it.

Yes, see the pretty colors.  ::)
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Offline stashko

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Re: The AOCC
« Reply #181 on: October 02, 2008, 10:49:45 PM »
 For violating two oc.net rules.  Originally reminded in public to be kind and respectful towards AOCC Bishop.  Violating oc.net rules poster called out moderator (where the rules inform the poster to use private messaging). 

Whatever - You could have asked me to treat this 'bishop' with more kindness & consideration in private, but did not. If I am called out in public, I will respond in public.  If I am sanctioned again for responding in kind, so be it.

Yes, see the pretty colors.  ::)

iI agree with my brother Heracleides you could of warned him private first....SmileyCentral.com" border="0
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Offline Anastasios

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Re: The AOCC
« Reply #182 on: October 02, 2008, 11:28:21 PM »
 For violating two oc.net rules.  Originally reminded in public to be kind and respectful towards AOCC Bishop.  Violating oc.net rules poster called out moderator (where the rules inform the poster to use private messaging). 

Whatever - You could have asked me to treat this 'bishop' with more kindness & consideration in private, but did not. If I am called out in public, I will respond in public.  If I am sanctioned again for responding in kind, so be it.

Yes, see the pretty colors.  ::)

People need to see moderatorial action responded to publicly or else they don't know that moderation occurred.  A public statement without a "pretty" green color is just a referee type statement to get people back on track.  Moderatorial actions should not be countered publicly.  We have been pretty lenient on this point most of the time compared to other sites, where calling out a moderator gets you automatically banned.

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Offline Heracleides

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Re: The AOCC
« Reply #183 on: October 02, 2008, 11:40:16 PM »
Another interesting tidbit from this groups website regarding their particular liturgy:

"Our Liturgy is The Divine Liturgy for the Americas, formerly known as The Divine Liturgy for Twentieth Century Christians - the original Liturgy of this Church, and encompasses also both Eastern and Western Liturgical expressions."

Source: http://www.forministry.com/USNYAMOCCNOCCN/

It would be interesting to see this hybrid liturgy - that is, if His Grace can ever be persuaded to actually open this liturgy to public perusal (he refused to do so on CAF a couple of years ago). Seriously, what is there to hide if this is a legitimate liturgy celebrated by a legitimate Orthodox bishop of a legitimate Orthodox jurisdiction.  Let's see it Your Grace.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2008, 11:51:41 PM by Heracleides »
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Offline LBK

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Re: The AOCC
« Reply #184 on: October 03, 2008, 12:09:04 AM »
Here are a couple of links which might help. Note the origin of the article in which Fr Stanley Harakas' answer # 285 appears.

http://www.geocities.com/theocacna/index.html

http://www.geocities.com/theocacna/aft23.html

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Offline SolEX01

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Re: The AOCC
« Reply #185 on: October 03, 2008, 02:44:00 AM »
Met. Samuel - one can find the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom in many places on the Internet.  It's not a secret and it's not hidden from anything.

Why do you feel that the "Divine Liturgy for the Americas" cannot be exposed to the light of day if you feel that said Liturgy is canonical?

I once had Fr. Harakas' book (455 Questions) and I think each question was answered with a few paragraphs up to under 2 pages.  One sentence from Answer #285 isn't enough without the entire context of that answer (or even the question).

Offline AOCCBishop

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Re: The AOCC
« Reply #186 on: October 03, 2008, 05:26:02 AM »
I have said time and again ... I cannot spend hours on the computer typing.  To place it here, and keep in mind also the fact that I am not a computer genius and have basically just a basic knowledge of computers, would require I place other responsibilities on the backburner. 

If anyone would like to see this Liturgy, contact me in private with an e-mail to forward it to.  I have nothing to hide, and it will be seen it is nothing more than a shortening of the Chrysostom Liturgy.  All the requisite parts are intact.

And the only quote I have concerning married Hierarchs in the Moscow Patriarchate is that which the Secretary of the AOCC Synod was able to find ... and it is the one from the THEOCACNA link listed in aprevious post.  I apologize if that is not good enough.

I will say, my frustration level here is beginning to mount.  I have defended myself and The American orthodox Catholic Church to the best of my ability so far, and it seems like all that is happening is a slamfest beginning.

The American Orthodox Catholic Church is no one's enemy.  We are a rather large Jurisdiction with 192 Hierarchs, Clergy, and Seminarians in 29 countries with 83 Parishes, plus other ministries including drug rehab, hospital, military and nursing home chaplaincies.

I am not sure how much longer I will stay here and subject both myself and the Jurisdiction I shepherd to the derision of those who have chosen to do so.  I don't have the time.

Metropolitan +Samuel

Offline AOCCBishop

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Re: The AOCC
« Reply #187 on: October 03, 2008, 05:37:18 AM »
To add to the last post ... all we seek to do is fulfill Christ's Divine Commission and do the work the Almighty has seen fit to give us to accomplish.  Is there anything wrong with that?

Metropolitan +Samuel

Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: The AOCC
« Reply #188 on: October 03, 2008, 08:24:06 AM »
Quote
The American Orthodox Catholic Church is no one's enemy.  We are a rather large Jurisdiction with 192 Hierarchs, Clergy, and Seminarians in 29 countries with 83 Parishes, plus other ministries including drug rehab, hospital, military and nursing home chaplaincies.

I would really like to read a detailed listings of these.
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Offline Bishop Paul Andrew

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Re: The AOCC
« Reply #189 on: October 03, 2008, 11:18:54 AM »
Quote
The American Orthodox Catholic Church is no one's enemy.  We are a rather large Jurisdiction with 192 Hierarchs, Clergy, and Seminarians in 29 countries with 83 Parishes, plus other ministries including drug rehab, hospital, military and nursing home chaplaincies.

I would really like to read a detailed listings of these.
You'll see when I have all the updates posted on our domain website.  the 192 is all clergy, the Hieratchs,Priests,deacons, sub-deacons, and so on. Our Domain website is all ready posted we have two websites Posted

Offline minasoliman

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Re: The AOCC
« Reply #190 on: October 03, 2008, 11:37:09 AM »
Quote
The American Orthodox Catholic Church is no one's enemy.  We are a rather large Jurisdiction with 192 Hierarchs, Clergy, and Seminarians in 29 countries with 83 Parishes, plus other ministries including drug rehab, hospital, military and nursing home chaplaincies.

I would really like to read a detailed listings of these.
You'll see when I have all the updates posted on our domain website.  the 192 is all clergy, the Hieratchs,Priests,deacons, sub-deacons, and so on. Our Domain website is all ready posted we have two websites Posted

Can't wait Father.  I just wanted to let you and His Eminence know that there seems to something in the history of the AOCC I don't understand, when you mentioned that Abune Basilios was exiled when in fact I can't find any evidence that he was.  I was hoping for a clarification.

Thank you.
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Offline Bishop Paul Andrew

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Re: The AOCC
« Reply #191 on: October 03, 2008, 11:46:39 AM »
Quote
The American Orthodox Catholic Church is no one's enemy.  We are a rather large Jurisdiction with 192 Hierarchs, Clergy, and Seminarians in 29 countries with 83 Parishes, plus other ministries including drug rehab, hospital, military and nursing home chaplaincies.

I would really like to read a detailed listings of these.
You'll see when I have all the updates posted on our domain website.  the 192 is all clergy, the Hieratchs,Priests,deacons, sub-deacons, and so on. Our Domain website is all ready posted we have two websites Posted

Can't wait Father.  I just wanted to let you and His Eminence know that there seems to something in the history of the AOCC I don't understand, when you mentioned that Abune Basilios was exiled when in fact I can't find any evidence that he was.  I was hoping for a clarification.

Thank you.

Abune Basilios was not exiled, go back to page 4 you see explanation gaven

Offline minasoliman

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Re: The AOCC
« Reply #192 on: October 03, 2008, 11:53:07 AM »
Father, I can't find that explanation that you mentioned.  Which #reply is it?
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Offline Heracleides

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Re: The AOCC
« Reply #193 on: October 03, 2008, 11:54:35 AM »
Quote
The American Orthodox Catholic Church is no one's enemy.  We are a rather large Jurisdiction with 192 Hierarchs, Clergy, and Seminarians in 29 countries with 83 Parishes, plus other ministries including drug rehab, hospital, military and nursing home chaplaincies.

I would really like to read a detailed listings of these.
You'll see when I have all the updates posted on our domain website.  the 192 is all clergy, the Hieratchs,Priests,deacons, sub-deacons, and so on. Our Domain website is all ready posted we have two websites Posted

Actual physical address' of your jurisdiction's 83 parishes would be a good place to start and would not require massive amounts of time to list.

Many individual Orthodox parishes have their own websites - heck, our OCA mission with less than a dozen regular members has one.  Where are the individual websites of any of these 83 parishes you claim?  Actual links to even a few would be appreciated.

***

As for His Grace, I do find it rather odd that you can't make the time to substantiate your previous claims in this thread or provide actual documentation of material used in your 83 parishes and yet you do have the time to post repeatedly about how you can't be bothered to do so due to time restraints... Seems to me it takes nearly as much time repeatedly telling us you have no time as it would in actually providing the requested source material.

You've been asked time and again in the past couple of years on at least two other forums to provide your hybrid liturgy and I must wonder why in all that time you've been unable to do so.  Perhaps as the leader of such a well staffed jurisdiction as is claimed - what was the figure - "192 Hierarchs, Clergy, and Seminarians" - you could delegate this task to someone else with the time to type in your new liturgy?  Seems like a reasonable solution and would serve to preserve your scarce time whilst also enlightening the curious public such as myself.

I eagerly await the reading of your hybrid liturgy which I am sure will now be forthcoming.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2008, 12:32:57 PM by Heracleides »
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Offline Bishop Paul Andrew

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Re: The AOCC
« Reply #194 on: October 03, 2008, 12:25:46 PM »
Father, I can't find that explanation that you mentioned.  Which #reply is it?

I am sorry I was referring to a reply you made on page three reply#116 my mistake I thought some one else made that comment. If my metropolitan has an e-mail listed write to him there about your question.

Offline tuesdayschild

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Re: The AOCC
« Reply #195 on: October 03, 2008, 01:16:12 PM »
I will say, my frustration level here is beginning to mount. 

If you came here hoping to be accepted as Orthodox while denying the Fathers of the Sixth Ecumenical Council (see my reply #163), then of course you would become frustrated.  This was inevitable.

I am not sure how much longer I will stay here and subject both myself and the Jurisdiction I shepherd to the derision of those who have chosen to do so.  I don't have the time.

"BishopMark" redux?  (See replies #87 and #88)

all we seek to do is fulfill Christ's Divine Commission and do the work the Almighty has seen fit to give us to accomplish.  Is there anything wrong with that?

Nothing whatsoever.  But I will say to you what I say to all my Protestant friends, who, like you, seek to fulfill what they each claim is the will of God for their lives, based on their private reading of The Rudder The Bible: saving grace can be found only in the Orthodox Church. 

Offline Bishop Paul Andrew

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Re: The AOCC
« Reply #196 on: October 03, 2008, 01:56:11 PM »
I will say, my frustration level here is beginning to mount. 

If you came here hoping to be accepted as Orthodox while denying the Fathers of the Sixth Ecumenical Council (see my reply #163), then of course you would become frustrated.  This was inevitable.

I am not sure how much longer I will stay here and subject both myself and the Jurisdiction I shepherd to the derision of those who have chosen to do so.  I don't have the time.



"BishopMark" redux?  (See replies #87 and #88)

all we seek to do is fulfill Christ's Divine Commission and do the work the Almighty has seen fit to give us to accomplish.  Is there anything wrong with that?

Nothing whatsoever.  But I will say to you what I say to all my Protestant friends, who, like you, seek to fulfill what they each claim is the will of God for their lives, based on their private reading of The Rudder The Bible: saving grace can be found only in the Orthodox Church. 

1) we don't deny the canons of the Seven Ecumenical councils, only one pretaining to Married bishops

2)Just because what others and you say about us not being non-canoncil because we are not in communion with Main Stream jurisdictions. We never left the church it left us and we are a canonical jurisdiction and by no means are we a Protestant secet and we are Orthodox. You people have asked us questions and we have answered them, what is fustrated is being asked the same questions over and over we find that very rude

Offline recent convert

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Re: The AOCC
« Reply #197 on: October 03, 2008, 02:06:51 PM »
I'll have to do some research.  What of that violation of Orthodox Praxis done by Metropolitan Saliba?
Substantiation please.........
Well, I am still awaiting an answer to a claim re a canonical Metropolitan of our Patriarchate.
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Offline Bishop Paul Andrew

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Re: The AOCC
« Reply #198 on: October 03, 2008, 02:43:18 PM »
I'll have to do some research.  What of that violation of Orthodox Praxis done by Metropolitan Saliba?
Substantiation please.........
Well, I am still awaiting an answer to a claim re a canonical Metropolitan of our Patriarchate.

Like you I am also waiting for comformation, I have asked a Bishop from the Jurisdiction known as THEOCACNA where the information came from and who was the widowed Priest that was allowed to remarried, since that information was posted on their website

Offline tuesdayschild

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Re: The AOCC
« Reply #199 on: October 03, 2008, 03:01:02 PM »
1) we don't deny the canons of the Seven Ecumenical councils, only one pretaining to Married bishops

2)Just because what others and you say about us not being non-canoncil because we are not in communion with Main Stream jurisdictions. We never left the church it left us and we are a canonical jurisdiction and by no means are we a Protestant secet and we are Orthodox. You people have asked us questions and we have answered them, what is fustrated is being asked the same questions over and over we find that very rude

I do not say that you are uncanonical because you are not in communion with "main stream" jurisdictions.  I say you are uncanonical because, as you say, you reject a canon of the Sixth Ecumenical Council, one reaffirmed without qualification by the Seventh and thereafter not merely practiced but considered normative by the whole Church.

The ancient practice you aspire to revive was changed "as caring for the health of the people and their advance to better things, and lest the ecclesiastical state should suffer any reproach."  If you find rudeness here, if your bishops find reproach here, you bring it upon yourselves.

Whether you left the Church or the Church left you makes no difference.  If you cannot see that this places you outside the Church, then I pity you.  Please, stop trying to defend the indefensible and reconsider.

Offline Bishop Paul Andrew

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Re: The AOCC
« Reply #200 on: October 03, 2008, 03:50:09 PM »
1) we don't deny the canons of the Seven Ecumenical councils, only one pretaining to Married bishops

2)Just because what others and you say about us not being non-canoncil because we are not in communion with Main Stream jurisdictions. We never left the church it left us and we are a canonical jurisdiction and by no means are we a Protestant secet and we are Orthodox. You people have asked us questions and we have answered them, what is fustrated is being asked the same questions over and over we find that very rude

I do not say that you are uncanonical because you are not in communion with "main stream" jurisdictions.  I say you are uncanonical because, as you say, you reject a canon of the Sixth Ecumenical Council, one reaffirmed without qualification by the Seventh and thereafter not merely practiced but considered normative by the whole Church.

The ancient practice you aspire to revive was changed "as caring for the health of the people and their advance to better things, and lest the ecclesiastical state should suffer any reproach."  If you find rudeness here, if your bishops find reproach here, you bring it upon yourselves.

Whether you left the Church or the Church left you makes no difference.  If you cannot see that this places you outside the Church, then I pity you.  Please, stop trying to defend the indefensible and reconsider.

1)sorry to tell you this but you have your canon wrong it was not the sixth. try either 2 or 3.

2)Let me as you this question are you a layperson or are you clergy

3)we don't bring anything on ourselfs

4) you say we are out side the church.that is far from the truth,  I have heard the same from a Roman Catholic about the Orthodox Church being out side the church as being the same with the Roman Catholic Church.

Offline Veniamin

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Re: The AOCC
« Reply #201 on: October 03, 2008, 03:54:54 PM »
1) we don't deny the canons of the Seven Ecumenical councils, only one pretaining to Married bishops

2)Just because what others and you say about us not being non-canoncil because we are not in communion with Main Stream jurisdictions. We never left the church it left us and we are a canonical jurisdiction and by no means are we a Protestant secet and we are Orthodox. You people have asked us questions and we have answered them, what is fustrated is being asked the same questions over and over we find that very rude

I do not say that you are uncanonical because you are not in communion with "main stream" jurisdictions.  I say you are uncanonical because, as you say, you reject a canon of the Sixth Ecumenical Council, one reaffirmed without qualification by the Seventh and thereafter not merely practiced but considered normative by the whole Church.

The ancient practice you aspire to revive was changed "as caring for the health of the people and their advance to better things, and lest the ecclesiastical state should suffer any reproach."  If you find rudeness here, if your bishops find reproach here, you bring it upon yourselves.

Whether you left the Church or the Church left you makes no difference.  If you cannot see that this places you outside the Church, then I pity you.  Please, stop trying to defend the indefensible and reconsider.

1)sorry to tell you this but you have your canon wrong it was not the sixth. try either 2 or 3.

2)Let me as you this question are you a layperson or are you clergy

3)we don't bring anything on ourselfs

4) you say we are out side the church.that is far from the truth,  I have heard the same from a Roman Catholic about the Orthodox Church being out side the church as being the same with the Roman Catholic Church.

And just what does any of that mean?
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: The AOCC
« Reply #202 on: October 03, 2008, 04:22:42 PM »
we are not in communion with Main Stream jurisdictions. We never left the church it left us
OK, but either way then you are outside of the Church.
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Offline tuesdayschild

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Re: The AOCC
« Reply #203 on: October 03, 2008, 04:24:06 PM »
1) we don't deny the canons of the Seven Ecumenical councils, only one pretaining to Married bishops

2)Just because what others and you say about us not being non-canoncil because we are not in communion with Main Stream jurisdictions. We never left the church it left us and we are a canonical jurisdiction and by no means are we a Protestant secet and we are Orthodox. You people have asked us questions and we have answered them, what is fustrated is being asked the same questions over and over we find that very rude

I do not say that you are uncanonical because you are not in communion with "main stream" jurisdictions.  I say you are uncanonical because, as you say, you reject a canon of the Sixth Ecumenical Council, one reaffirmed without qualification by the Seventh and thereafter not merely practiced but considered normative by the whole Church.

The ancient practice you aspire to revive was changed "as caring for the health of the people and their advance to better things, and lest the ecclesiastical state should suffer any reproach."  If you find rudeness here, if your bishops find reproach here, you bring it upon yourselves.

Whether you left the Church or the Church left you makes no difference.  If you cannot see that this places you outside the Church, then I pity you.  Please, stop trying to defend the indefensible and reconsider.

1)sorry to tell you this but you have your canon wrong it was not the sixth. try either 2 or 3.

2)Let me as you this question are you a layperson or are you clergy

3)we don't bring anything on ourselfs

4) you say we are out side the church.that is far from the truth,  I have heard the same from a Roman Catholic about the Orthodox Church being out side the church as being the same with the Roman Catholic Church.

1) I refer you once again to my reply #163

2) Layman

3)  ::)

4) No, you said you are outside the Church:

We never left the church it left us

Offline AOCCBishop

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Re: The AOCC
« Reply #204 on: October 03, 2008, 06:37:10 PM »
I'm not sure if the last comments I made were posted or not ... but in a nutshell ... if I was ever to leave as primate of the AOCC and go in search of another church ... it would not be any of the mainline Orthodox Jurisdictions.  The comments of a few select individuals herein have turned me off to the mainline even more than I already was.

With that said, and not as a Bishop Mark redux ... I take my leave and will be asking Father Alexander to do the same.

I ask God's blessings upon you all.

Metropolitan +Samuel
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The American Orthodox Catholic Church

Offline LBK

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Re: The AOCC
« Reply #205 on: October 03, 2008, 06:44:33 PM »
Quote
With that said, and not as a Bishop Mark redux ... I take my leave and will be asking Father Alexander to do the same.

Like I said my brother in Christ ... I don't back down

When the going gets tough ....

Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline FrChris

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Re: The AOCC
« Reply #206 on: October 03, 2008, 06:48:15 PM »

I have to warn you ... I don't back down.  I'm not your typical so called non-canonical Bishop.

Metropolitan +Samuel

But you did back down, less than 48 hours after stating you would not.

Looks like you are typical.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2008, 06:49:02 PM by FrChris »
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Offline AOCCBishop

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Re: The AOCC
« Reply #207 on: October 03, 2008, 06:51:23 PM »
No ... you must pick and choose your battles, and I see no way of any fellowship occurring here.  I don't back down from what I believe, and I believe my posts here have showed that.  However, I also don't see the need to waste my breath.

And btw ... if I was to pull a Bishop mark redux ... I'd say what is really on my mind right now.  However, the dignity of the Episcopacy forbids it, as does Christianity.

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Re: The AOCC
« Reply #208 on: October 03, 2008, 06:55:20 PM »
And btw ... if I was to pull a Bishop mark redux ... I'd say what is really on my mind right now.  However, the dignity of the Episcopacy forbids it, as does Christianity.

Well, you're definitely not an Orthodox bishop, despite your claims to the contrary, so let our bishops worry about the dignity of the episcopacy and you just go ahead and tell us what's on your mind. 
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Offline Bishop Paul Andrew

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Re: The AOCC
« Reply #209 on: October 03, 2008, 06:58:53 PM »
I read the canon talking about Married Bishops, and I disagree with one part of said canon (thereby giving scandal and offence to the people) what did they find as to what was so scandalous and what was so offensive to the people. Lets take a look at this as it was written when the church was trying to come together as one. If I was there at the time I would have disagreed  with the other bishops about married Bishops as to seeing nothing wrong with it. For some of the Apostles were married as well as the men they choose to be bishops and priest. all this continued up until the Ecumenical councils. You really think that people of today really care if a Bishop is married or not I don't think so. there is nothing scandalous or offensive about it.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2008, 07:31:10 PM by Father Alexander »

Offline Bishop Paul Andrew

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Re: The AOCC
« Reply #210 on: October 03, 2008, 07:03:07 PM »
And btw ... if I was to pull a Bishop mark redux ... I'd say what is really on my mind right now.  However, the dignity of the Episcopacy forbids it, as does Christianity.

Well, you're definitely not an Orthodox bishop, despite your claims to the contrary, so let our bishops worry about the dignity of the episcopacy and you just go ahead and tell us what's on your mind. 

Oh is that why there was a scandle in your jurisdiction. as some of your bishops looked the other way. talking about Bishops give me a break
« Last Edit: October 03, 2008, 08:43:23 PM by Father Alexander »

Offline Veniamin

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Re: The AOCC
« Reply #211 on: October 03, 2008, 07:05:14 PM »
If I was there at the time I would have disgreed  with the other bishops about married Bishops as to seeing nothing wrong with it.

Would have disagreed with the other bishops?  So you're a bishop, too, now?
Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl. ~Frederick the Great

Offline Bishop Paul Andrew

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Re: The AOCC
« Reply #212 on: October 03, 2008, 07:09:15 PM »
If I was there at the time I would have disgreed  with the other bishops about married Bishops as to seeing nothing wrong with it.

Would have disagreed with the other bishops?  So you're a bishop, too, now?

that was so funny I for got to laugh

Offline LBK

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Re: The AOCC
« Reply #213 on: October 03, 2008, 07:13:08 PM »
No ... you must pick and choose your battles, and I see no way of any fellowship occurring here.  I don't back down from what I believe, and I believe my posts here have showed that.  However, I also don't see the need to waste my breath.

Hmmm. Phantom liturgies, phantom parish locations, not answering straight questions, asking advice from THEOCACNA, which is hardly a canonical jurisdiction  ...
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: The AOCC
« Reply #214 on: October 03, 2008, 07:25:37 PM »
Free Smileys & Emoticons at Clipart of.com" border="0  Ho, hum.  Are we having fun yet?
Not all who wander are lost.

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Re: The AOCC
« Reply #215 on: October 03, 2008, 07:35:18 PM »
If I was there at the time I would have disgreed  with the other bishops about married Bishops as to seeing nothing wrong with it.

Would have disagreed with the other bishops?  So you're a bishop, too, now?


Oh, Oh, Oh! Don't leave me out, can I be the Pope? Eh...on second thought, I'll stick with being Napoleon. ;D

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Re: The AOCC
« Reply #216 on: October 03, 2008, 08:03:21 PM »
Quote
talking about Bishops give me a brake

Well Fr. Alexander what kind of "brake" did you have in mind.

Power-assisted brake
Brake  pedal
Handbrake
Footbrake





Offline Bishop Paul Andrew

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Re: The AOCC
« Reply #217 on: October 03, 2008, 08:46:13 PM »
Quote
talking about Bishops give me a brake

Well Fr. Alexander what kind of "brake" did you have in mind.

Power-assisted brake
Brake  pedal
Handbrake
Footbrake




neither I meant this type of break


Offline Bishop Paul Andrew

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Re: The AOCC
« Reply #218 on: October 03, 2008, 09:12:40 PM »
1) we don't deny the canons of the Seven Ecumenical councils, only one pretaining to Married bishops

2)Just because what others and you say about us not being non-canoncil because we are not in communion with Main Stream jurisdictions. We never left the church it left us and we are a canonical jurisdiction and by no means are we a Protestant secet and we are Orthodox. You people have asked us questions and we have answered them, what is fustrated is being asked the same questions over and over we find that very rude

The ancient practice you aspire to revive was changed "as caring for the health of the people and their advance to better things, and lest the ecclesiastical state should suffer any reproach." 

Whether you left the Church or the Church left you makes no difference.  If you cannot see that this places you outside the Church, then I pity you.  Please, stop trying to defend the indefensible and reconsider.

Since married bishop were part of life in the early Church before the Councils  I see nothing wrong with married Bishops and no I don't see that it places us out side the church.

Offline Veniamin

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Re: The AOCC
« Reply #219 on: October 03, 2008, 09:32:06 PM »
1) we don't deny the canons of the Seven Ecumenical councils, only one pretaining to Married bishops

2)Just because what others and you say about us not being non-canoncil because we are not in communion with Main Stream jurisdictions. We never left the church it left us and we are a canonical jurisdiction and by no means are we a Protestant secet and we are Orthodox. You people have asked us questions and we have answered them, what is fustrated is being asked the same questions over and over we find that very rude

The ancient practice you aspire to revive was changed "as caring for the health of the people and their advance to better things, and lest the ecclesiastical state should suffer any reproach." 

Whether you left the Church or the Church left you makes no difference.  If you cannot see that this places you outside the Church, then I pity you.  Please, stop trying to defend the indefensible and reconsider.

Since married bishop were part of life in the early Church before the Councils  I see nothing wrong with married Bishops and no I don't see that it places us out side the church.

You already said that the Church had left you.  So which is it?  Are you out of it or are you in?  If you're in, then why aren't you in communion with anyone?
Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl. ~Frederick the Great

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Re: The AOCC
« Reply #220 on: October 03, 2008, 10:05:23 PM »
No ... you must pick and choose your battles, and I see no way of any fellowship occurring here.  I don't back down from what I believe, and I believe my posts here have showed that.  However, I also don't see the need to waste my breath.

Hmmm. Phantom liturgies, phantom parish locations, not answering straight questions, asking advice from THEOCACNA, which is hardly a canonical jurisdiction  ...

I guess you must have air between your ears,or you need glasses as you don't understand what you read,

1) as stated in reply 186 if you want to see the liturgy we mentioned all you have to do is e-mail my Metropolitan he'll be more than happy to send it to you.

2) I stated that once I update our website you see all the parishes and where they are at with addresses, now the ones in South America and Africa may not have address so if not your out of luck.

3) as for Theocacna I did not ask for advice, I asked for information that was posted on there website concerning a remarried  Priest of the Antiochian Orthodox Christian church in America. where it came from and who was the Priest

4) all question were answered straight forward

Offline Bishop Paul Andrew

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Re: The AOCC
« Reply #221 on: October 03, 2008, 10:54:16 PM »
1) we don't deny the canons of the Seven Ecumenical councils, only one pretaining to Married bishops

2)Just because what others and you say about us not being non-canoncil because we are not in communion with Main Stream jurisdictions. We never left the church it left us and we are a canonical jurisdiction and by no means are we a Protestant secet and we are Orthodox. You people have asked us questions and we have answered them, what is fustrated is being asked the same questions over and over we find that very rude

The ancient practice you aspire to revive was changed "as caring for the health of the people and their advance to better things, and lest the ecclesiastical state should suffer any reproach." 

Whether you left the Church or the Church left you makes no difference.  If you cannot see that this places you outside the Church, then I pity you.  Please, stop trying to defend the indefensible and reconsider.

Since married bishop were part of life in the early Church before the Councils  I see nothing wrong with married Bishops and no I don't see that it places us out side the church.

You already said that the Church had left you.  So which is it?  Are you out of it or are you in?  If you're in, then why aren't you in communion with anyone?

1) You guys say the we should seek communion, why should we make the first move whats wrong with your bishops making the first move seeking communion with us.

2) As for being in communion with any one, That'll be brought up at our next synod next year and as for being in communion with any Jurisdiction here in america, like OCA, GOA, AOCA or Rocor, I dout that will be forth coming.

3) if we do decide to seek communion with any one It'll be with the Orthodox Church we came from and that will be the Russian Orthodox Church.


Offline Veniamin

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Re: The AOCC
« Reply #222 on: October 03, 2008, 11:07:56 PM »

1) You guys say the we should seek communion, why should we make the first move whats wrong with your bishops making the first move seeking communion with us.

Oh, probably that teeny little issue of you people deciding you can reject councils of the Church and still claim to be Orthodox.
Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl. ~Frederick the Great

Offline SolEX01

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Re: The AOCC
« Reply #223 on: October 03, 2008, 11:19:57 PM »
1) You guys say the we should seek communion, why should we make the first move whats wrong with your bishops making the first move seeking communion with us.

The Prodigal Son came back to the Father.  The Father didn't go to the swine pit looking for the Prodigal Son.

2) As for being in communion with any one, That'll be brought up at our next synod next year and as for being in communion with any Jurisdiction here in america, like OCA, GOA, AOCA or Rocor, I dout that will be forth coming.

AOCC Synod could try uniting the 30 or so vagante Jurisdictions using the AOCC name?

3) if we do decide to seek communion with any one It'll be with the Orthodox Church we came from and that will be the Russian Orthodox Church.

Hmmmm, why would Moscow Patriarchate receive the AOCC back under her omophoria?

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Re: The AOCC
« Reply #224 on: October 03, 2008, 11:29:21 PM »


1) we don't deny the canons of the Seven Ecumenical councils, only one pretaining to Married bishops

Denying even one canon puts you above the fathers of the Councils. I don't think that is right.

Quote
2)Just because what others and you say about us not being non-canoncil because we are not in communion with Main Stream jurisdictions. We never left the church it left us and we are a canonical jurisdiction and by no means are we a Protestant secet and we are Orthodox. You people have asked us questions and we have answered them, what is fustrated is being asked the same questions over and over we find that very rude

Many people here find it rude that you keep expecting us to recognize you as Orthodox when you reject Orthodox teachings!

I just don't get it--if you truly believe the mainstream jurisdictions are wrong about married bishops, why do you care what they think about you?

In case you did not notice, I am an Old Calendarist priest; I am not in communion with the current incumbent of the Ecumenical Patriarchate. Do you think I called up the local GOA bishop and said, "here I am. Recognize me!"  Of course not! (Although I do enjoy good relations with the local GOA priest on a personal level).  The reason being that obviously I believe the Old Calendarists are right. If you really believe that the AOCC is right, then why do you keep craving recognition from outsiders?

Don't you see how odd it looks that you and your bishop come here, your bishop admits he gets his copy of the Rudder off the Internet (the canons are part of the plan of salvation for God's sake!) and admits that he does not hold various canons which the Orthodox Church holds.  You say you are right on this, but then argue with people who do not recognize you.

I would not use the argument that *just* because you are not in communion with the EP you are not Orthodox, but I would challenge you that the *only* way a Church can be Orthodox and *not* be in communion with the other patriarchs is if they are in error on some point and one is following Canon 15 of the 1st-2nd Synod which allows one to break communion with his superior in cases of HERESY. But here is the kicker--if you break communion with your lawful superior over a question of heresy, and a council later declares that the superior was in fact NOT heretical, then you are a schismatic!  So you have to look long and hard at the issues and ask yourself, "is this worth taking the risk?"  "Is this worth breaking communion over?" "Is being out of communion going to help or hurt the situation?" "Is what we are contemplating breaking communion over a matter of HERESY?"

If having autocephaly--which no one else recognized and which the mother Church quickly dispensed with--and having married bishops--is a matter of DOCTRINE that you are willing to risk ETERNAL DAMNATION to split over, then please do take your stand--but stop complaining when people don't recognize you.

In Christ,

Fr Anastasios
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Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism and may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching. Also, I served as an Orthodox priest from 2008-2013, before resigning.