Rather oddly, it seems to me that you're putting words in my mouth and then arguing against them. I have not said premarital sex is necessary to bring about marriage. I also have not said anyone gets to have sex before marriage (at least I haven't said so in this thread).
... If we could all stay on topic to this thread, I'd appreciate it.
you have a posting history, so we are not going to waste time forgetting about what you are all about.
I'm not asking you to forget about it. Just keep to the topic of this thread in this thread, please; that's all I'm asking. If you have an urge to discuss premarital sex, there is already a thread on that topic. This thread is about Southern Baptists (and apparently others) who say couples must avoid passionate touching beyond the holding of hands until they are married if they wish to be "sexually pure." "The Bible" nowhere institutes these rules they are placing on shoulders. The Bible never defines "sexual purity" in terms of avoiding passionate touching before marriage.
Pre-owed cars don't run as well as new ones fresh from the factory. What makes you think used spouses do better?
Having worked at a dealership when I was younger, I've driven pre-owned cars that run a lot better than fresh from the factory cars. It depends on the make and model of the car, if the manufacturer's break-in instructions were followed, and other things. But I'm not here to argue about cars or common sense. We could do that all day and it would be pointless. If your sense leads you to one type of courtship, then follow your path.
Btw, have you mentioned whether you were married or not?
since you speak on your own "authority," it is our business to assess that "authority," if we want to pay it any attention.
You made a side analogy about cars, and I responded from my experience in the auto industry. That's all. It is not relevant to this discussion at all whether or not I was married when I was younger and working at a car dealership.
It seems to me that you're avoiding the actual topic of this thread and, instead, are trying to divert attention to my personal life and to the topics of other threads I've been involved in. If you want to ask me a personal question about my marital history, PM me. If you want to discuss premarital sex, there is already a thread on that topic (as you've shown you're more than aware of).
So someone is going to baptize someone who insists fornication is OK. Does their bishop know?
I most definitely do not insist that any sort of sexual sin is ever okay.
My main point is that the Bible does not teach that the way to remain sexually pure until marriage is to do nothing physical besides kiss and hold hands before their weddings. You cited 1 Thess 4, "... abstain from sexual sin... know how to possess your own vessel in sanctification and honor not in passion of lust, like the Gentiles who do not know God..." I love that passage. You do realize that there are contexts in which passion and lust are honorable, right?
Passion, yes, in the context of marriage. Lust, never. In any context. Including marriage.
Then it seems you would condemn even Jesus Christ and His Holy Apostle. So I am glad you condemn me also. For even Christ said, "With lust (epithymia
) I have desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer.'" (Luke 22:16) Likewise, the Holy Apostle said, "But, brothers and sisters, when we were orphaned by being separated from you for a short time, out of our lust (epithymia
) we made every effort to see you." (1 Thessalonians 2:17) See also 1 Timothy 6:9, "Those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful lusts (epithymia
) that plunge people into ruin and destruction."
There are harmful lusts on one hand while, on the other hand, there are holy and honorable lusts, just as I said. We can lust for good things or bad things. The good contexts or bad contexts are what make the intense desires good or bad. Intense desire, "lust," "epithymia," is not sinful in and of itself.
Read the Song of Solomon. Intense desires are celebrated as part of the formation of holy marriage. Passionate touching is celebrated in joyful song both before the wedding and after.
In fact, such passions, in the right context, are celebrated with joyful song in the Bible's Song of Solomon, both before the wedding and after.
I don't have to deal with your misreading of the Song of Solomon, as more to the point you deceived in thinking we read the NT in the light of the OT, rather than the reverse. II Corinthians 11:2
I've never said we read the NT in light of the OT. We read everything in the Spirit's light. "The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit." (John 6:63)
the words He has, not those you have.
And that is why I quoted His words in response to your citation of 2 Corinthians 11:2. Paul was not saying he expects to present everyone in the church as literal virgins, obviously, since Paul advised many to marry and join in body. His words, even in 2 Corinthians 11, are spirit.