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Author Topic: Wedding-day kiss will be couple's first  (Read 11395 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: August 12, 2003, 04:14:22 PM »

Wedding-day kiss will be couple's first

By Gina Kim
Seattle Times staff reporter

 
 
Jill Merry and Adrian Burwell began dating last November. They got engaged in May. But the first time they kiss will be Aug. 16 — at the altar, in front of more than 600 people.
For the couple, who met at a Southern Baptist evangelical church in Renton, not kissing, not hugging and not having sex before they are married is an avowal of purity.

"We have all the same emotions everyone else does. We just decided to put guidelines to it," said Merry, 26, of Bellevue. "We knew that if we starting touching, things were going to start happening."

While it is unknown how many of the almost 2.5 million couples who get married in the United States each year set limits on the physical aspect of their relationship, it's not uncommon in the 350-member community of Trinity Baptist Church.

Pastor Richard Seim said he does extensive premarital counseling, involving eight sessions with every couple, and talks with them explicitly about the limits they are setting.

The vast majority of couples he marries — as many as four out of five, he said — have committed to do nothing physical besides kiss and hold hands before their weddings. About one-third kiss for the first time at the altar, he said. And when he gave his own daughter away at her wedding, he felt sure he was placing her hand into her husband-to-be's for the first time ever.

"We believe the Bible teaches that a person should remain sexually pure until marriage," said Seim, who, along with Burwell's father, will oversee next Saturday's wedding.

Whatever people's religious beliefs may be, the prenuptial path Merry and Burwell are taking certainly places them in a distinct minority.

The majority of Americans today are sexually active before they are married, and more than half of all couples live together before a first marriage, said Barbara Dafoe Whitehead, co-director of the National Marriage Project, a research organization at Rutgers University focusing on trends related to marriage.

Whitehead is aware of efforts to emphasize chastity before marriage, although she hadn't heard of couples who refrain from kissing.

"I don't think it's strong enough to say it's a full-fledged movement, but there is a backlash among certain religious groups to return to traditional forms of courtship," she said.

   
Religious couples tend to stay married more often than nonreligious couples, she added.

"But whether they are actually happier or whether refraining from physical contact (before the wedding) would strengthen a marriage, we wouldn't know empirically by any research," she said.

"I think a sort of sociological commonplace is 'like marries like.' And on those major, important issues, when people agree, that is a good sign. Perhaps their religious commitment and the fact they agree on these questions that have to do with sex and kissing means they are quite compatible and in sync with each other."

Merry and Burwell certainly feel their faith has led them to each other and a common lifestyle.

Although they had been attending the same church for several years, Burwell, 28, wrote Merry a letter in November asking if he could get to know her better. He admits he didn't have strong feelings for her at the time, but he felt drawn to her.

"I did have some emotion for her, not a lot," said Burwell, who owns a custom-cabinet business in Maple Valley. "But I knew deep down that this was the person God wanted me to have."

They agreed to date, and they both admit the first month and a half was something of an effort.

"God just opened our hearts and we really began to fall in love," said Merry, who wears a silver cross around her neck and has "JESUS" written on block letters on her key chain. "It was January of this year that everything just exploded and just changed. And we were both filled with a deep sense of love for each other."

Burwell proposed. Merry accepted. But they still didn't kiss.

"The only lady I've kissed is my mom," said Burwell, whose father is a pastor. "To me, the first kiss is one of the most precious gifts I can give away, and it's something I'll only give my wife."

Merry hasn't kissed anyone, either, mostly as a result of seeing friends getting in and out of relationships, she said.

"I knew I didn't want to date around and give different parts of my heart to different guys," she said. "I just decided I wanted to save my first kiss for my wedding day."

They do hold hands. And their fingers are often interlaced during their premarital sessions with their pastor, associate pastor and counselor. But that's where their physical contact ends.

"Today, it's like everything's backwards. You start on the physical level and then you get to know each other on a deeper, emotional level," said Merry. "We wanted to get to know each other on the emotional level first. And the physical is just the icing on the cake."

All rules are off once they are married and living in the Renton home they've bought, they said. They just need to get past the first kiss at the wedding.

"My only concern is that it's going to be so wonderful, one of us is going to faint," said Burwell.

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« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2003, 04:40:15 PM »

I agree that purity is the goal but I cannot imagine marrying someone I did not kiss.  I cannot imagine building a relationship without some manner of physical contact.

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« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2003, 07:01:17 AM »

What a wise, chaste couple.  I only wish I'd been raised to have such values when I was younger.  We are a filthy, unchaste society, so unfortunately we look at what this couple did as being odd, or even offensive - but it is we who are in the wrong.

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« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2003, 04:08:20 PM »

What a wise, chaste couple.  I only wish I'd been raised to have such values when I was younger.  We are a filthy, unchaste society, so unfortunately we look at what this couple did as being odd, or even offensive - but it is we who are in the wrong.

Seraphim


Very good point. Unfortunately, being chaste is lost on many in today's age. Sad
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« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2008, 01:00:39 AM »

Is kissing the woman you love before marrying her an unchaste act?
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« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2008, 01:04:25 AM »

Wow, talk about an ascetical act!  I might view things a bit differently, but God bless them!
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« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2008, 01:12:11 AM »

Is kissing the woman you love before marrying her an unchaste act?

Depends on your definition of chaste, and kissing ( Wink)

Seriously though.  Chastity can be a tricky subject.  I would say that most things we do are normal until they become passions.  they become passions when they are taken out of their normal context.  You can kiss someone's hand to show affection, so why does it have to be on the mouth?  Just one of many questions that can be asked. 

A broader question might help you get better answers...
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« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2008, 01:35:19 AM »

I think this is a perfect case of religious fanaticism at it's best. Maybe they were conforming to what their church or pastor wanted. It's fine to be chaste, but these people take it way too far. I couldn't fathom never kissing someone before I married them. Sounds very weird to say the least. 
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« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2008, 01:59:35 AM »

I think this is a perfect case of religious fanaticism at it's best. Maybe they were conforming to what their church or pastor wanted. It's fine to be chaste, but these people take it way too far. I couldn't fathom never kissing someone before I married them. Sounds very weird to say the least. 
If the couple agree that, because of their particular passions, this is the best way to remain sexually pure, then what's so weird about that?
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« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2008, 02:07:45 AM »

^^Hey, whatever floats their boat I guess. I just have the feeling they were conforming to the very strict rules of the southern baptist. They will probably also never touch a lick of wine in their lives because it's 'evil'. I'm just seeing it for what it probably is. If they are free thinkers and did this on their on volition, then hey I give them major props.
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« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2008, 02:26:12 AM »

We are a filthy, unchaste society,

So why not find a good country that practices sharia law and go there? Surely you could find your utopian society there. Our society is the most pure and righteous in the history of the world, this did not come from legislating who can touch who where, how those who fail to observe prayer times should be punished, or how many angels can sit on the head of a pin. It is because we respect the dignity of the human person, allow each to practice the freedom endowed to them by their Creator, and afford each individual the right to live according to the dictates of his or her own conscience.

Quote
so unfortunately we look at what this couple did as being odd, or even offensive - but it is we who are in the wrong.

Odd, of course, it is clearly contrary to the societal norm; as for offensive, how so? They have lived their lives in accordance with the dictates of their conscience and they have forced their will on no one else. The only possible cause for offence is if they did this in response to pressure from their social group rather than by their own free will.

No matter how much I would object to this behaviour personally, my objections cannot reasonably extend beyond my personal behaviour. That they live their life as they believe proper and are not compelled to deny their will by some tyrannical law is only cause for celebration, as well as evidence of the greatness of the society which granted them this freedom.
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« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2008, 02:27:33 AM »

^^Hey, whatever floats their boat I guess. I just have the feeling they were conforming to the very strict rules of the southern baptist. They will probably also never touch a lick of wine in their lives because it's 'evil'. I'm just seeing it for what it probably is. If they are free thinkers and did this on their on volition, then hey I give them major props.

Hear, hear...it would seem that in this instance, at least, we are in agreement.

Rather disturbing don't you think (me and you agreeing that is). Wink
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« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2008, 02:35:23 AM »

^^Ahhh, that first date is always so exciting.  Good luck y'all. Cheesy
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« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2008, 02:38:33 AM »

^^Ahhh, that first date is always so exciting.  Good luck y'all. Cheesy

Sorry, are you feeling left out? Wink
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« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2008, 03:13:30 AM »

Quote
Hear, hear...it would seem that in this instance, at least, we are in agreement.

Rather disturbing don't you think (me and you agreeing that is).

LOL! I think this is the second time we have seen eye to eye in the last few days. Maybe there's a new GIC-Nacho axis forming on the OC.... Grin
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« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2008, 03:14:43 AM »

Someone put on Marvin Gaye before this moment passes! Cheesy Grin
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« Reply #16 on: January 30, 2008, 03:53:02 AM »

GIC and Nacho: The new axis of evil?
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« Reply #17 on: January 30, 2008, 07:56:02 AM »

GIC and Nacho: The new axis of evil?

More like the Batman and Robin of evil.  The Adam West Batman, that is. Cheesy
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« Reply #18 on: January 30, 2008, 11:18:02 AM »

I bet nobody remembers anything about the wedding ceremony except THE KISS - all the guests are now going to be voyeurs to this sybolic but very public passion explosion.  Kinda creepy.
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« Reply #19 on: January 30, 2008, 11:29:31 AM »

Odd, yes.  Offensive, no.  Like GiC, if these two did this of their own free will and talked about it, as opposed to just supressing it all with no communication between them about this rather lofty goal, then good on them for living up to their promises to one another.  If they did this to please other people and it wracked their consciences so much that they burned up inside about it (cf. 1 Cor 7:) then the whole practice was for naught other than show.

I am reminded of this short film on the Old Believers of Marion County, Oregon shot in 1981 which depicts a courtship of a young couple.  I don't even think they made it all the way until the wedding w/o kissing one another, but they certainly didn't miss an opportunity to do so after the wedding! 

If you've never seen it, take 30 minutes and watch it.  It's a fascinating glimpse into the daily life of an Old Believer community, especially its marriage customs.
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« Reply #20 on: January 30, 2008, 01:29:07 PM »

^^Very interesting movie.  That type of simplistic life has always appealed to me.  But I also like my cappucino and internet. Wink
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« Reply #21 on: January 30, 2008, 02:49:46 PM »

Honestly, I am undecided about how to evaluate this. On the one hand, yes, it seems extreme. On the other hand, I, personally, happen to have most terrible recollections about dating and kissing the girls that I dated when I was 18-20. I was a virgin, I knew exactly nothing about sex, but I, like all nerds (from the movie, "Revenge of the Nerds" Smiley) thought about it all the time, and kissing inflamed passions in me. Finally, at the ripe old age of 20, I yielded to these passions and to the horrible peer pressure, and had "sex" with a girl whom I barely knew, on a filthy narrow wooden bench in a sports camp. It lasted about two seconds, after which the girl said, "hmmm, I thought you were a man... but don't despair, maybe you will improve." And it neurotized me for good many years. In the former USSR, the attitude to sex was weird, schizophrenic, utterly puritanic and simultaneously very permissive (everyone accepted that men have sex outside of marriage all the time, and that all teenagers do "it" when parents look the other way, etc.).
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« Reply #22 on: January 30, 2008, 02:52:30 PM »

Just finished the Old Believer documentary and it was really interesting.  It totally changed my view of Old Believers.  Hard to describe but they are joking, laughing, boisterous.  I read a long interview about the Alaska Old Believers and they came off as grim and rigid.  I guess Old Believers are not as uniform a group as I thought.

Does anyone know if the Oregon Old Believers in the film are priestless or have clergy?
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« Reply #23 on: January 31, 2008, 04:59:33 PM »

I think this is a perfect case of religious fanaticism at it's best. Maybe they were conforming to what their church or pastor wanted. It's fine to be chaste, but these people take it way too far. I couldn't fathom never kissing someone before I married them. Sounds very weird to say the least. 

Nacho,

I am actually going to have to disagree with you on this one (I guess there is a first for everything), I think this is an outstanding example of piety and holiness. Our society today is oversexed, and it is sad this is looked at as being "weird" even amongst a lot of christians. I applaud the couple. What would Jesus, the Theotokos and the saints say about this couple?

With that said, I don't think it is wrong to kiss your woman before you get married, but if you can abstain from it, I think it would be the best choice of all. What an exciting wedding night!
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« Reply #24 on: January 31, 2008, 05:25:02 PM »

^^You know OB, you are right....I guess I let my extreme cynicism about protestantism get the best of me; plus we need to continue our streak of being in perfect agreement in the years we have participated on this forum..... Grin
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« Reply #25 on: January 31, 2008, 05:36:19 PM »

^^You know OB, you are right....I guess I let my extreme cynicism about protestantism get the best of me; plus we need to continue our streak of being in perfect agreement in the years we have participated on this forum..... Grin

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I knew I would get you to see the errors of your ways!  laugh
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« Reply #26 on: January 31, 2008, 06:32:23 PM »

If you guys read Tolstoy's "Anna Karenina," there is an interesting fragment in the novel on this topic. Levin, the author's alter ego or prototype, a nobleman who wishes to lead a more pure life closer to the way peasants live, goes with his peasants to mow the grass. Among those who do the mowing, Levin notices a young couple, a boy of 19 or so, and a girl who is even younger. They stay together all the time, look and smile at each other very tenderly, and everybody pokes fun on them. Levin asks, what's the matter, and an older peasant says, "You know, "barin" ("Sir"), these two married about one and a half years ago, but they were so naive at that time, they did not quite know what to do with each other, you know... but now, it seems they just found out, and they are so happy." To Levin, this comes as a total shock. He has hard time believing that in his day and age (the late 1860-s - early 1870-s) there still remain couples who marry in the state of total innocence.
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« Reply #27 on: January 31, 2008, 07:30:44 PM »

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All rules are off once they are married and living in the Renton home they've bought, they said. They just need to get past the first kiss at the wedding.

Honestly, this is the only thing in the entire article that bothered me.  And it is the only thing that bothers me about this "movement".  No amount of not kissing before marriage transforms "all rules are off once they are married" into chastity.  All one does is move from one extreme to another.     
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« Reply #28 on: January 31, 2008, 07:42:31 PM »

Honestly, this is the only thing in the entire article that bothered me.  And it is the only thing that bothers me about this "movement".  No amount of not kissing before marriage transforms "all rules are off once they are married" into chastity.  All one does is move from one extreme to another.     
Exactly great point Mor some of these baptists and evangelicals see the wedding day/ring as a "get out of sin free card" as opposed to a Holy sacrament that still holds to another form of chastity.
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« Reply #29 on: February 01, 2008, 02:37:57 AM »

I think it's a nice they theyre doing.

If only more people saved themselves and thought about purity and took it seriously...
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« Reply #30 on: February 01, 2008, 02:49:59 AM »

If you guys read Tolstoy's "Anna Karenina," there is an interesting fragment in the novel on this topic. Levin, the author's alter ego or prototype, a nobleman who wishes to lead a more pure life closer to the way peasants live, goes with his peasants to mow the grass. Among those who do the mowing, Levin notices a young couple, a boy of 19 or so, and a girl who is even younger. They stay together all the time, look and smile at each other very tenderly, and everybody pokes fun on them. Levin asks, what's the matter, and an older peasant says, "You know, "barin" ("Sir"), these two married about one and a half years ago, but they were so naive at that time, they did not quite know what to do with each other, you know... but now, it seems they just found out, and they are so happy." To Levin, this comes as a total shock. He has hard time believing that in his day and age (the late 1860-s - early 1870-s) there still remain couples who marry in the state of total innocence.

George,

It's hard to imagine that happening today. After all, even if a couple are without actual sexual experience, it is all around us. We hardly seem to have any films without sex scenes; no door closing and fading out; nothing really left to the imagination.

I have mixed feelings about such private pledges made public; but I suppose that is me. And that aside, I say all power to this young couple who have stuck by their principles and done what they consider to be the right thing.
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« Reply #31 on: February 01, 2008, 02:33:15 PM »

The "chaste" element of this couple would never have been noticed in Ethiopia.

This is common.

Matter-of-fact this is common in most if not all 'traditional' African societies.

In Orthodox Ethiopia there is also NO kissing or touching at any point inside the Church during the wedding mass. Such acts are highly objectionable.

The Holy Communion is the only real means of 'consumation'. Once the Communion is given the union of the couple is final; fully consumated. They are one flesh.

After this they can proceed with the rest of there lives in a married way.

 
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« Reply #32 on: February 01, 2008, 03:17:20 PM »

I don't think it is wrong to kiss your woman before you get married, but if you can abstain from it, I think it would be the best choice of all. What an exciting wedding night!

Kiss your woman? Huh  Wonderful choice of words there - that evokes such tender, romantic images of a young couple in love.  Did you mistype these words when your mullet fell into your eyes, or were you distracted by the dawgs hollerin in the front yard?
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« Reply #33 on: February 01, 2008, 03:33:06 PM »

Kiss your woman? Huh  Wonderful choice of words there - that evokes such tender, romantic images of a young couple in love.  Did you mistype these words when your mullet fell into your eyes, or were you distracted by the dawgs hollerin in the front yard?

LMAO Cheesy...good post. Cheesy
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« Reply #34 on: February 01, 2008, 07:24:03 PM »

Kiss your woman? Huh  Wonderful choice of words there - that evokes such tender, romantic images of a young couple in love.  Did you mistype these words when your mullet fell into your eyes, or were you distracted by the dawgs hollerin in the front yard?

I follow your read here.

I do not mean to disagree..

But I liked that post.

The "kiss your woman" wording was strong and sincere in my mind. I was taken back to earlier times in my own life.

It was to me how you would word such a thought if you had never kissed a women yet and knowing that the first one you will kiss will be your only and last.

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« Reply #35 on: February 01, 2008, 07:32:32 PM »

I follow your read here.

I do not mean to disagree..

But I liked that post.

The "kiss your woman" wording was strong and sincere in my mind. I was taken back to earlier times in my own life.

It was to me how you would word such a thought if you had never kissed a women yet and knowing that the first one you will kiss will be your only and last.



Actually, the phrase "your woman" is considered offensive to the woman in question, which is what prompted Tina's response.  It essentially dehumanizes her by changing her defining characteristic from her relationship to you (such as "your wife") to the biological hardware she comes equipped with. 
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« Reply #36 on: February 01, 2008, 11:00:07 PM »

Actually, the phrase "your woman" is considered offensive to the woman in question, which is what prompted Tina's response.  It essentially dehumanizes her by changing her defining characteristic from her relationship to you (such as "your wife") to the biological hardware she comes equipped with. 

YEAH what Veniamin said.
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« Reply #37 on: February 01, 2008, 11:36:18 PM »

Actually, the phrase "your woman" is considered offensive to the woman in question, which is what prompted Tina's response.  It essentially dehumanizes her by changing her defining characteristic from her relationship to you (such as "your wife") to the biological hardware she comes equipped with. 

Do I need to go out and burn my bra, because hubby often calls me "woman" or "my woman"? Come to think of it, I often call him "man" and "my man". Perhaps there is also something he should burn to announce his liberation from such demumanising, although I must admit to being rather pleased with his biological hardware.  Tongue

I imagine there is no such dilemma for those whose languages use the same words for husband and wife as they do for man and woman. 

Lord have mercy on all us - and vive la difference!
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« Reply #38 on: February 01, 2008, 11:42:04 PM »

Do I need to go out and burn my bra, because hubby often calls me "woman" or "my woman"? Come to think of it, I often call him "man" and "my man". Perhaps there is also something he should burn to announce his liberation from such demumanising, although I must admit to being rather pleased with his biological hardware.  Tongue

Congratulations on how enlightened you are. Roll Eyes That doesn't change the fact that such usage does have demeaning connotations for most American English-speakers.

Quote
I imagine there is no such dilemma for those whose languages use the same words for husband and wife as they do for man and woman. 

However, English isn't one of those languages and it's the one this board is using and the one in which the original quote was made.
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« Reply #39 on: February 01, 2008, 11:49:23 PM »

Do I need to go out and burn my bra, because hubby often calls me "woman" or "my woman"? Come to think of it, I often call him "man" and "my man". Perhaps there is also something he should burn to announce his liberation from such demumanising, although I must admit to being rather pleased with his biological hardware.  Tongue

I agree with you, but I'm not going to touch this since it would drag this thread way off topic.
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« Reply #40 on: February 02, 2008, 12:05:47 AM »

Congratulations on how enlightened you are. Roll Eyes

It certainly is a blessing.  Tongue

Quote
However, English isn't one of those languages and it's the one this board is using and the one in which the original quote was made.

Very true, but I did have a little fun with my post and I hope you weren't offended by it. 
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« Reply #41 on: February 02, 2008, 11:29:11 PM »

When my wife and I had our first married kiss, it was a simple  loving and warm kiss for those there to know we "sealed " our vows with a kiss.  No french kiss or otherwise.  We still, 35 years later prefer that simple expression of our love to other ways of kissing.

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« Reply #42 on: February 02, 2008, 11:31:18 PM »

The posts dealing with FGM have been split off here.
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« Reply #43 on: February 03, 2008, 12:36:30 AM »

Congratulations on how enlightened you are. Roll Eyes That doesn't change the fact that such usage does have demeaning connotations for most American English-speakers.


Mullet and houn'dawg jokes aside, many rural Ozarkians use this type of language very affectionately.  This may be stretching things a bit, but it seems to me that when you're married, the man 'belongs' to his wife and the wife 'belongs' to the husband ergo 'my man' and 'my woman'.  Being a native Ozarkian, I know tons of married folks who use these terms and not a single one of them see their spouses as property.
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« Reply #44 on: February 04, 2008, 04:23:07 AM »

Do I need to go out and burn my bra, because hubby often calls me "woman" or "my woman"? Come to think of it, I often call him "man" and "my man". Perhaps there is also something he should burn to announce his liberation from such demumanising, although I must admit to being rather pleased with his biological hardware.  Tongue

I imagine there is no such dilemma for those whose languages use the same words for husband and wife as they do for man and woman. 

Lord have mercy on all us - and vive la difference!

I understand TinaG perfectly.

To say "your women" or "my woman" is a "man thing". The woman on the receiving end must understand the man she is with or appreciate the endearing sweet quality of this phrase when said by someone in certain context.

True.. Some men use such phrases in a unflattering way by context mostly.

Sometimes some women are just highly insecure about certain descriptions. Fair enough.

I refer to my wife for 13 years as "my girl" and shes is f a r from a girl. I also call her "little girl".

I say these phrases because I see her as I saw her from the beginning. Sometimes I see her in suttle ways how she 'may' have been as a girl. Mainly I think she is cute!

I do not see her as 'my old lady' or like my friend refers to his wife "ma". ...Yuk!
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« Reply #45 on: February 04, 2008, 05:56:51 AM »

Mullet and houn'dawg jokes aside, many rural Ozarkians use this type of language very affectionately.  This may be stretching things a bit, but it seems to me that when you're married, the man 'belongs' to his wife and the wife 'belongs' to the husband ergo 'my man' and 'my woman'.  Being a native Ozarkian, I know tons of married folks who use these terms and not a single one of them see their spouses as property.

Forgive my ignorance, but what is an Ozarkian?  Huh
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« Reply #46 on: February 04, 2008, 12:31:20 PM »

Forgive my ignorance, but what is an Ozarkian?  Huh

Someone from this region of the United States.  The inhabitants have a distinct culture and dialect. 
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« Reply #47 on: February 04, 2008, 10:42:03 PM »

Thanks Nektarios. Very interesting!
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« Reply #48 on: April 12, 2012, 06:49:37 AM »

Quote
Wedding-day kiss will be couple's first 

What a disgusting perversion! Seriously. If you support this kind of thing then shame on you for six weeks.
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« Reply #49 on: April 12, 2012, 07:57:49 AM »

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« Reply #50 on: April 30, 2012, 10:10:04 PM »

Quote
The vast majority of couples he marries — as many as four out of five, he said — have committed to do nothing physical besides kiss and hold hands before their weddings....  "We believe the Bible teaches that a person should remain sexually pure until marriage," said Seim, who, along with Burwell's father, will oversee next Saturday's wedding.

They should read their Bibles instead of letting their pastors explain it to them.  They could try reading the Song of Solomon for starters.  Now there's a biblical courtship if I've ever seen one.   Count the kisses before their wedding in that story.  Count the touches.  Count the times their passion is obviously sexual in nature.

Plus, the Bible does not teach that people should remain sexually pure only until marriage.  Instead, it says we should all remain sexually pure before and after marriage.  And that does not mean "no sexual contact."  "Sexual purity" does not mean "no sexual intimacy."  

These teachings destroy the natural, biblical, godly concept of marriage.  Teachings like these Southern Baptists' were prophesied about in 1 Timothy chapter 4.  Southern Baptists are commonly known for forbidding alcohol and often other plants.  That fits 1 Timothy ch 4 quite well.  So do their teachings about marriage. The Baptist pastors who teach people that God says they can't touch or kiss one another passionately until marriage are actually hindering the formation of normal, healthy marriages.  Not everyone is compatible sexually just like not everyone is compatible personally.  As a former Southern Baptist who saw many of my friends get married in these traditions, I can guarantee that many of these couples who do not touch before marriage are going to find they are not very compatible physically.  Many will eventually get divorced.

I'm not saying couples have to fully engage in an entire act of sexual intercourse before marriage.  But to not even touch one another is almost like having an arranged marriage.  It is totally unnatural and it is completely non-biblical.  You might as well not talk to your fiance before marrying her, and then "trust God" that you two will get along well.

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The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3 They hinder people's marriages and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. 4 For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 5 because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.  6 If you point these things out to the brothers and sisters,[a] you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, nourished on the truths of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed. 7 Have nothing to do with godless myths and old wives’ tales; rather, train yourself to be godly.
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« Reply #51 on: April 30, 2012, 10:12:41 PM »

Again with the agenda...  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #52 on: April 30, 2012, 10:15:07 PM »

Again with the agenda...  Roll Eyes

Apparently I'm your agenda.
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« Reply #53 on: April 30, 2012, 10:21:27 PM »

acts that was an excellent post, thank you for sharing your thoughts.
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« Reply #54 on: April 30, 2012, 10:22:29 PM »

wow, that's going to be awkward lol
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« Reply #55 on: April 30, 2012, 10:26:13 PM »


They should read their Bibles instead of letting their pastors explain it to them.  They could try reading the Song of Solomon for starters.  Now there's a biblical courtship if I've ever seen one.   Count the kisses before their wedding in that story.  Count the touches.  Count the times their passion is obviously sexual in nature.

Plus, the Bible does not teach that people should remain sexually pure only until marriage.  Instead, it says we should all remain sexually pure before and after marriage.  And that does not mean "no sexual contact."  "Sexual purity" does not mean "no sexual intimacy."  


Yeah, keep on telling yourself that.
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« Reply #56 on: April 30, 2012, 10:39:11 PM »

Forgive my ignorance, but what is an Ozarkian?  Huh

Me!!! Raised down in those parts with a long family history. The hills are breathtaking the closer you get to the Boston Mountains.
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« Reply #57 on: April 30, 2012, 10:52:25 PM »

Oh and just fyi I was being sarcastic above...

wow, that's going to be awkward lol
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« Reply #58 on: April 30, 2012, 11:01:38 PM »


They should read their Bibles instead of letting their pastors explain it to them.  They could try reading the Song of Solomon for starters.  Now there's a biblical courtship if I've ever seen one.   Count the kisses before their wedding in that story.  Count the touches.  Count the times their passion is obviously sexual in nature.

Plus, the Bible does not teach that people should remain sexually pure only until marriage.  Instead, it says we should all remain sexually pure before and after marriage.  And that does not mean "no sexual contact."  "Sexual purity" does not mean "no sexual intimacy."  


Yeah, keep on telling yourself that.
no, don't tell yourself that.  The devil often speaks louder in an echo chamber.
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« Reply #59 on: April 30, 2012, 11:05:11 PM »

wow, that's going to be awkward lol

It might have been 8.5 years ago, but I doubt it's awkward anymore.  Wink
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« Reply #60 on: April 30, 2012, 11:14:41 PM »

Quote
The vast majority of couples he marries — as many as four out of five, he said — have committed to do nothing physical besides kiss and hold hands before their weddings....  "We believe the Bible teaches that a person should remain sexually pure until marriage," said Seim, who, along with Burwell's father, will oversee next Saturday's wedding.

They should read their Bibles instead of letting their pastors explain it to them.  They could try reading the Song of Solomon for starters.  Now there's a biblical courtship if I've ever seen one.   Count the kisses before their wedding in that story.  Count the touches.  Count the times their passion is obviously sexual in nature.

Plus, the Bible does not teach that people should remain sexually pure only until marriage.  Instead, it says we should all remain sexually pure before and after marriage.  And that does not mean "no sexual contact."  "Sexual purity" does not mean "no sexual intimacy."
 
before marriage, yeah it does.
These teachings destroy the natural, biblical, godly concept of marriage.  Teachings like these Southern Baptists' were prophesied about in 1 Timothy chapter 4.  Southern Baptists are commonly known for forbidding alcohol and often other plants.  That fits 1 Timothy ch 4 quite well.  So do their teachings about marriage. The Baptist pastors who teach people that God says they can't touch or kiss one another passionately until marriage are actually hindering the formation of normal, healthy marriages.  Not everyone is compatible sexually just like not everyone is compatible personally.  As a former Southern Baptist who saw many of my friends get married in these traditions, I can guarantee that many of these couples who do not touch before marriage are going to find they are not very compatible physically.  Many will eventually get divorced.
they will be far outnumbered many times over by those who are touched all over before marriage who divorce eventually, let alone those who never marry, just get touched all over.

I'm not saying couples have to fully engage in an entire act of sexual intercourse before marriage.  But to not even touch one another is almost like having an arranged marriage.  It is totally unnatural and it is completely non-biblical.
It how it was in paradise with Adam and Eve, and so totally natural and completely biblical.

You might as well not talk to your fiance before marrying her, and then "trust God" that you two will get along well.
Pre-owed cars don't run as well as new ones fresh from the factory.  What makes you think used spouses do better?

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The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3 They hinder people's marriages and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. 4 For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 5 because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.  6 If you point these things out to the brothers and sisters,[a] you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, nourished on the truths of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed. 7 Have nothing to do with godless myths and old wives’ tales; rather, train yourself to be godly.
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1 Finally, brethren, we beseech and exhort you in the Lord Jesus, that as you learned from us how you ought to live and to please God, just as you are doing, you do so more and more. 2 For you know what instructions we gave you through the Lord Jesus. 3 For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you abstain from unchastity; 4 that each one of you know how to take a wife for himself in holiness and honor, 5 not in the passion of lust like heathen who do not know God; 6 that no man transgress, and wrong his brother in this matter, because the Lord is an avenger in all these things, as we solemnly forewarned you. 7 For God has not called us for uncleanness, but in holiness. 8 Therefore whoever disregards this, disregards not man but God, who gives his Holy Spirit to you.
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« Reply #61 on: May 01, 2012, 01:54:06 PM »

I'm not saying couples have to fully engage in an entire act of sexual intercourse before marriage.  But to not even touch one another is almost like having an arranged marriage.  It is totally unnatural and it is completely non-biblical.

It how it was in paradise with Adam and Eve, and so totally natural and completely biblical.

Dear ialmisry, are you saying that Adam and Eve never touched one another passionately in paradise?  If so... what makes you think that?

Or are you just saying theirs was an arranged marriage?  Of course it was, in a sense, but then again every marriage is "arranged" by God in a sense.  The fact is, there was one man and one woman then.  Now there are many.  Many couples desire specific characteristics in a spouse, some personal and some physical, and there is nothing wrong with such desires nor with the personal and physical interactions that are often necessary to bring about a union in a couple's desires.

Pre-owed cars don't run as well as new ones fresh from the factory.  What makes you think used spouses do better?

Having worked at a dealership when I was younger, I've driven pre-owned cars that run a lot better than fresh from the factory cars.  It depends on the make and model of the car, if the manufacturer's break-in instructions were followed, and other things.  But I'm not here to argue about cars or common sense.  We could do that all day and it would be pointless.  If your sense leads you to one type of courtship, then follow your path.

My main point is that the Bible does not teach that the way to remain sexually pure until marriage is to do nothing physical besides kiss and hold hands before their weddings.   You cited 1 Thess 4, "... abstain from sexual sin... know how to possess your own vessel in sanctification and honor not in passion of lust, like the Gentiles who do not know God..."  I love that passage.  You do realize that there are contexts in which passion and lust are honorable, right?  In fact, such passions, in the right context, are celebrated with joyful song in the Bible's Song of Solomon, both before the wedding and after.
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« Reply #62 on: May 01, 2012, 01:54:15 PM »

... Plus, the Bible does not teach that people should remain sexually pure only until marriage.  Instead, it says we should all remain sexually pure before and after marriage.  And that does not mean "no sexual contact."  "Sexual purity" does not mean "no sexual intimacy."  ...

Yeah, keep on telling yourself that.

Dear Iconodule, sarcasm makes it hard to understand a person, especially in writing.  So I may be missing your point.  But my best guess is you should consider that marriage is a gift from God and so are the children that spring from its passions.   If a person must avoid all passionate, sexual touching in order to be sexually pure, then the gift of marriage and childbearing that God gives many Christians makes them impure.  Or do you think married couples should to have passionless sex?

I'm not sure what you're trying to say.  Please hold off on the sarcasm as it just makes communication in writing difficult.  All I'm saying is that sexual purity does not require a couple to forbid passionate touching.  What about that is so disagreeable to you?

Have you read the Song of Solomon?  Holy Scripture show us that passionate touching is sometimes an important part of the formation of marriage, a holy part.  If a couple feels led by the Spirit to avoid such touching for whatever reason, then they should feel free to avoid it.  However, if we teach everyone that "the Bible" requires this sort of physically passionless courtship described by the Southern Baptists in the original post, then we are telling a lie from the father of lies and have become icons of Pharisaical legalism at its finest.
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« Reply #63 on: May 01, 2012, 07:40:06 PM »

I'm not saying couples have to fully engage in an entire act of sexual intercourse before marriage.  But to not even touch one another is almost like having an arranged marriage.  It is totally unnatural and it is completely non-biblical.

It how it was in paradise with Adam and Eve, and so totally natural and completely biblical.

Dear ialmisry, are you saying that Adam and Eve never touched one another passionately in paradise?  If so... what makes you think that?
They were married in paradise, so they could touch one another as passionately as they wanted.

Or are you just saying theirs was an arranged marriage?  Of course it was, in a sense, but then again every marriage is "arranged" by God in a sense.  The fact is, there was one man and one woman then.  Now there are many.  Many couples desire specific characteristics in a spouse, some personal and some physical, and there is nothing wrong with such desires nor with the personal and physical interactions that are often necessary to bring about a union in a couple's desires.
premarital sex is never necessary to bring about a union.  You buy by the label.  You don't get to sample all the bottles.

Pre-owed cars don't run as well as new ones fresh from the factory.  What makes you think used spouses do better?
Having worked at a dealership when I was younger, I've driven pre-owned cars that run a lot better than fresh from the factory cars.  It depends on the make and model of the car, if the manufacturer's break-in instructions were followed, and other things.  But I'm not here to argue about cars or common sense.  We could do that all day and it would be pointless.  If your sense leads you to one type of courtship, then follow your path.
Btw, have you mentioned whether you were married or not?

As for your path


My main point is that the Bible does not teach that the way to remain sexually pure until marriage is to do nothing physical besides kiss and hold hands before their weddings.   You cited 1 Thess 4, "... abstain from sexual sin... know how to possess your own vessel in sanctification and honor not in passion of lust, like the Gentiles who do not know God..."  I love that passage.  You do realize that there are contexts in which passion and lust are honorable, right?
Passion, yes, in the context of marriage.  Lust, never. In any context.  Including marriage.

In fact, such passions, in the right context, are celebrated with joyful song in the Bible's Song of Solomon, both before the wedding and after.
I don't have to deal with your misreading of the Song of Solomon, as more to the point you deceived in thinking we read the NT in the light of the OT, rather than the reverse. II Corinthians 11:2
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« Reply #64 on: May 01, 2012, 07:42:24 PM »

... Plus, the Bible does not teach that people should remain sexually pure only until marriage.  Instead, it says we should all remain sexually pure before and after marriage.  And that does not mean "no sexual contact."  "Sexual purity" does not mean "no sexual intimacy."  ...

Yeah, keep on telling yourself that.

Dear Iconodule, sarcasm makes it hard to understand a person, especially in writing.  So I may be missing your point.  But my best guess is you should consider that marriage is a gift from God and so are the children that spring from its passions.   If a person must avoid all passionate, sexual touching in order to be sexually pure, then the gift of marriage and childbearing that God gives many Christians makes them impure.  Or do you think married couples should to have passionless sex?

I'm not sure what you're trying to say.  Please hold off on the sarcasm as it just makes communication in writing difficult.  All I'm saying is that sexual purity does not require a couple to forbid passionate touching.  What about that is so disagreeable to you?

Have you read the Song of Solomon?  Holy Scripture show us that passionate touching is sometimes an important part of the formation of marriage, a holy part.  If a couple feels led by the Spirit to avoid such touching for whatever reason, then they should feel free to avoid it.  However, if we teach everyone that "the Bible" requires this sort of physically passionless courtship described by the Southern Baptists in the original post, then we are telling a lie from the father of lies and have become icons of Pharisaical legalism at its finest.
so you acknowledge your father.

We can distinguish between passion for a spouse and passion outside marriage, even if you can't.
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« Reply #65 on: May 01, 2012, 08:00:12 PM »

... Plus, the Bible does not teach that people should remain sexually pure only until marriage.  Instead, it says we should all remain sexually pure before and after marriage.  And that does not mean "no sexual contact."  "Sexual purity" does not mean "no sexual intimacy."  ...

Yeah, keep on telling yourself that.

Dear Iconodule, sarcasm makes it hard to understand a person, especially in writing.  So I may be missing your point.  But my best guess is you should consider that marriage is a gift from God and so are the children that spring from its passions.   If a person must avoid all passionate, sexual touching in order to be sexually pure, then the gift of marriage and childbearing that God gives many Christians makes them impure.  Or do you think married couples should to have passionless sex?

I'm not sure what you're trying to say.  Please hold off on the sarcasm as it just makes communication in writing difficult.  All I'm saying is that sexual purity does not require a couple to forbid passionate touching.  What about that is so disagreeable to you?

Have you read the Song of Solomon?  Holy Scripture show us that passionate touching is sometimes an important part of the formation of marriage, a holy part.  If a couple feels led by the Spirit to avoid such touching for whatever reason, then they should feel free to avoid it.  However, if we teach everyone that "the Bible" requires this sort of physically passionless courtship described by the Southern Baptists in the original post, then we are telling a lie from the father of lies and have become icons of Pharisaical legalism at its finest.

Acts, this discussion was already exhausted elsewhere. You're not bringing anything new here. Your argument about the Song of Solomon was already refuted.
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« Reply #66 on: May 01, 2012, 09:22:50 PM »

I'm not saying couples have to fully engage in an entire act of sexual intercourse before marriage.  But to not even touch one another is almost like having an arranged marriage.  It is totally unnatural and it is completely non-biblical.

It how it was in paradise with Adam and Eve, and so totally natural and completely biblical.

Dear ialmisry, are you saying that Adam and Eve never touched one another passionately in paradise?  If so... what makes you think that?
They were married in paradise, so they could touch one another as passionately as they wanted.

Or are you just saying theirs was an arranged marriage?  Of course it was, in a sense, but then again every marriage is "arranged" by God in a sense.  The fact is, there was one man and one woman then.  Now there are many.  Many couples desire specific characteristics in a spouse, some personal and some physical, and there is nothing wrong with such desires nor with the personal and physical interactions that are often necessary to bring about a union in a couple's desires.

premarital sex is never necessary to bring about a union.  You buy by the label.  You don't get to sample all the bottles.


Rather oddly, it seems to me that you're putting words in my mouth and then arguing against them.  I have not said premarital sex is necessary to bring about marriage.  I also have not said anyone gets to have sex before marriage (at least I haven't said so in this thread).  

If we could all stay on topic to this thread, I'd appreciate it.  My point, in this thread, is that people get to touch one another beyond holding hands before marriage.  If a couple wants to do that, then that is perfectly natural, normal, and ok.  There is nothing wrong with passionate touching.  Unlike what these Southern Baptists teach, "the Bible" nowhere institutes these rules they are placing on shoulders.  The Bible never defines "sexual purity" in terms of avoiding passionate touching before marriage.

Pre-owed cars don't run as well as new ones fresh from the factory.  What makes you think used spouses do better?
Having worked at a dealership when I was younger, I've driven pre-owned cars that run a lot better than fresh from the factory cars.  It depends on the make and model of the car, if the manufacturer's break-in instructions were followed, and other things.  But I'm not here to argue about cars or common sense.  We could do that all day and it would be pointless.  If your sense leads you to one type of courtship, then follow your path.

Btw, have you mentioned whether you were married or not?

http://images2.fanpop.com/images/soapbox/mind-your-own-business_8774_1.jpg

As for your path


Are you referring to my upcoming baptism into the orthodox church?  Aw, what a sweet thing to remind me of.  Thank you!

My main point is that the Bible does not teach that the way to remain sexually pure until marriage is to do nothing physical besides kiss and hold hands before their weddings.   You cited 1 Thess 4, "... abstain from sexual sin... know how to possess your own vessel in sanctification and honor not in passion of lust, like the Gentiles who do not know God..."  I love that passage.  You do realize that there are contexts in which passion and lust are honorable, right?
Passion, yes, in the context of marriage.  Lust, never. In any context.  Including marriage.

In fact, such passions, in the right context, are celebrated with joyful song in the Bible's Song of Solomon, both before the wedding and after.
I don't have to deal with your misreading of the Song of Solomon, as more to the point you deceived in thinking we read the NT in the light of the OT, rather than the reverse. II Corinthians 11:2

I've never said we read the NT in light of the OT.  We read everything in the Spirit's light.  "The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit." (John 6:63)
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« Reply #67 on: May 01, 2012, 09:39:04 PM »

I'm not saying couples have to fully engage in an entire act of sexual intercourse before marriage.  But to not even touch one another is almost like having an arranged marriage.  It is totally unnatural and it is completely non-biblical.

It how it was in paradise with Adam and Eve, and so totally natural and completely biblical.

Dear ialmisry, are you saying that Adam and Eve never touched one another passionately in paradise?  If so... what makes you think that?
They were married in paradise, so they could touch one another as passionately as they wanted.

Or are you just saying theirs was an arranged marriage?  Of course it was, in a sense, but then again every marriage is "arranged" by God in a sense.  The fact is, there was one man and one woman then.  Now there are many.  Many couples desire specific characteristics in a spouse, some personal and some physical, and there is nothing wrong with such desires nor with the personal and physical interactions that are often necessary to bring about a union in a couple's desires.

premarital sex is never necessary to bring about a union.  You buy by the label.  You don't get to sample all the bottles.


Rather oddly, it seems to me that you're putting words in my mouth and then arguing against them.  I have not said premarital sex is necessary to bring about marriage.  I also have not said anyone gets to have sex before marriage (at least I haven't said so in this thread).  

If we could all stay on topic to this thread, I'd appreciate it. 
you have a posting history, so we are not going to waste time forgetting about what you are all about.

My point, in this thread, is that people get to touch one another beyond holding hands before marriage.  If a couple wants to do that, then that is perfectly natural, normal, and ok.  There is nothing wrong with passionate touching.  Unlike what these Southern Baptists teach, "the Bible" nowhere institutes these rules they are placing on shoulders.  The Bible never defines "sexual purity" in terms of avoiding passionate touching before marriage.
like I (and Iconodule) said, you have a posting history.  Your ill founded ideas including, but not limited to, your unbiblical idea that it "never defines "sexual purity" in terms of avoiding passionate touching before marriage" have been refuted.  They have not recovered since then.
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,24951.msg406969.html#msg406969
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,35214.msg555296.html#msg555296

Pre-owed cars don't run as well as new ones fresh from the factory.  What makes you think used spouses do better?
Having worked at a dealership when I was younger, I've driven pre-owned cars that run a lot better than fresh from the factory cars.  It depends on the make and model of the car, if the manufacturer's break-in instructions were followed, and other things.  But I'm not here to argue about cars or common sense.  We could do that all day and it would be pointless.  If your sense leads you to one type of courtship, then follow your path.

Btw, have you mentioned whether you were married or not?

http://images2.fanpop.com/images/soapbox/mind-your-own-business_8774_1.jpg
since you speak on your own "authority," it is our business to assess that "authority," if we want to pay it any attention.

As for your path


Are you referring to my upcoming baptism into the orthodox church?  Aw, what a sweet thing to remind me of.  Thank you!
So someone is going to baptize someone who insists fornication is OK.  Does their bishop know?

My main point is that the Bible does not teach that the way to remain sexually pure until marriage is to do nothing physical besides kiss and hold hands before their weddings.   You cited 1 Thess 4, "... abstain from sexual sin... know how to possess your own vessel in sanctification and honor not in passion of lust, like the Gentiles who do not know God..."  I love that passage.  You do realize that there are contexts in which passion and lust are honorable, right?
Passion, yes, in the context of marriage.  Lust, never. In any context.  Including marriage.

In fact, such passions, in the right context, are celebrated with joyful song in the Bible's Song of Solomon, both before the wedding and after.
I don't have to deal with your misreading of the Song of Solomon, as more to the point you deceived in thinking we read the NT in the light of the OT, rather than the reverse. II Corinthians 11:2

I've never said we read the NT in light of the OT.  We read everything in the Spirit's light.  "The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit." (John 6:63)
the words He has, not those you have.
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« Reply #68 on: May 02, 2012, 07:14:17 AM »

Rather oddly, it seems to me that you're putting words in my mouth and then arguing against them.  I have not said premarital sex is necessary to bring about marriage.  I also have not said anyone gets to have sex before marriage (at least I haven't said so in this thread).  
... If we could all stay on topic to this thread, I'd appreciate it.
you have a posting history, so we are not going to waste time forgetting about what you are all about.

I'm not asking you to forget about it.  Just keep to the topic of this thread in this thread, please; that's all I'm asking.  If you have an urge to discuss premarital sex, there is already a thread on that topic.  This thread is about Southern Baptists (and apparently others) who say couples must avoid passionate touching beyond the holding of hands until they are married if they wish to be "sexually pure."   "The Bible" nowhere institutes these rules they are placing on shoulders.  The Bible never defines "sexual purity" in terms of avoiding passionate touching before marriage.

Pre-owed cars don't run as well as new ones fresh from the factory.  What makes you think used spouses do better?
Having worked at a dealership when I was younger, I've driven pre-owned cars that run a lot better than fresh from the factory cars.  It depends on the make and model of the car, if the manufacturer's break-in instructions were followed, and other things.  But I'm not here to argue about cars or common sense.  We could do that all day and it would be pointless.  If your sense leads you to one type of courtship, then follow your path.
Btw, have you mentioned whether you were married or not?
since you speak on your own "authority," it is our business to assess that "authority," if we want to pay it any attention.

You made a side analogy about cars, and I responded from my experience in the auto industry.  That's all.  It is not relevant to this discussion at all whether or not I was married when I was younger and working at a car dealership.  

It seems to me that you're avoiding the actual topic of this thread and, instead, are trying to divert attention to my personal life and to the topics of other threads I've been involved in.  If you want to ask me a personal question about my marital history, PM me.  If you want to discuss premarital sex, there is already a thread on that topic (as you've shown you're more than aware of).  

So someone is going to baptize someone who insists fornication is OK.  Does their bishop know?

I most definitely do not insist that any sort of sexual sin is ever okay.

My main point is that the Bible does not teach that the way to remain sexually pure until marriage is to do nothing physical besides kiss and hold hands before their weddings.   You cited 1 Thess 4, "... abstain from sexual sin... know how to possess your own vessel in sanctification and honor not in passion of lust, like the Gentiles who do not know God..."  I love that passage.  You do realize that there are contexts in which passion and lust are honorable, right?
Passion, yes, in the context of marriage.  Lust, never. In any context.  Including marriage.

Then it seems you would condemn even Jesus Christ and His Holy Apostle.  So I am glad you condemn me also.  For even Christ said, "With lust (epithymia) I have desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer.'"  (Luke 22:16)  Likewise, the Holy Apostle said, "But, brothers and sisters, when we were orphaned by being separated from you for a short time, out of our lust (epithymia) we made every effort to see you."  (1 Thessalonians 2:17)   See also 1 Timothy 6:9, "Those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful lusts (epithymia) that plunge people into ruin and destruction."  

There are harmful lusts on one hand while, on the other hand, there are holy and honorable lusts, just as I said.  We can lust for good things or bad things.  The good contexts or bad contexts are what make the intense desires good or bad.  Intense desire, "lust," "epithymia," is not sinful in and of itself.  

Read the Song of Solomon.  Intense desires are celebrated as part of the formation of holy marriage.  Passionate touching is celebrated in joyful song both before the wedding and after.

In fact, such passions, in the right context, are celebrated with joyful song in the Bible's Song of Solomon, both before the wedding and after.
I don't have to deal with your misreading of the Song of Solomon, as more to the point you deceived in thinking we read the NT in the light of the OT, rather than the reverse. II Corinthians 11:2
I've never said we read the NT in light of the OT.  We read everything in the Spirit's light.  "The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit." (John 6:63)
the words He has, not those you have.

And that is why I quoted His words in response to your citation of 2 Corinthians 11:2.  Paul was not saying he expects to present everyone in the church as literal virgins, obviously, since Paul advised many to marry and join in body.  His words, even in 2 Corinthians 11, are spirit.
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« Reply #69 on: May 02, 2012, 06:31:41 PM »

acts420, if you wish to use the word epithymia, it also means wish or desire in addition to lust.
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« Reply #70 on: May 02, 2012, 10:32:25 PM »

acts420, if you wish to use the word epithymia, it also means wish or desire in addition to lust.

Exactly.  epithymia = lust = intense desire

Lust, or "epithymia," is not bad in and of itself.  That is my point.  If we "epithymia" for good things, that is good.  If we "epithymia" for bad things, that is bad.
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« Reply #71 on: May 02, 2012, 10:44:20 PM »

acts420, if you wish to use the word epithymia, it also means wish or desire in addition to lust.

Exactly.  epithymia = lust = intense desire

Lust, or "epithymia," is not bad in and of itself.  That is my point.  If we "epithymia" for good things, that is good.  If we "epithymia" for bad things, that is bad.
you seem unable to make the distinction, if you find lust=intense desire is a value neutral equation.
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« Reply #72 on: May 02, 2012, 11:17:21 PM »

acts420, if you wish to use the word epithymia, it also means wish or desire in addition to lust.

Exactly.  epithymia = lust = intense desire

Lust, or "epithymia," is not bad in and of itself.  That is my point.  If we "epithymia" for good things, that is good.  If we "epithymia" for bad things, that is bad.

Why are you so stuck on the word lust?  According to the Merriam-Webster dictionary, the root word for lust is the Latin word lascivus (wanton).  The modern usage of the word lust, besides intense or unbridled sexual desire, is an intense longing or enthusiam / eagerness.
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« Reply #73 on: May 02, 2012, 11:25:49 PM »

Then it seems you would condemn even Jesus Christ and His Holy Apostle.  So I am glad you condemn me also.  For even Christ said, "With fervent desire lust (epithymia) I have desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer.'"  (Luke 22:16)  Likewise, the Holy Apostle said, "But, brothers and sisters, when we were orphaned by being separated from you for a short time, out of our great desire lust (epithymia) we made every effort to see you."  (1 Thessalonians 2:17)   See also 1 Timothy 6:9, "Those who desire want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful lusts (epithymia) that plunge people into ruin and destruction."

I haven't seen the Acts420 Translation of the Bible on amazon.com; I made some minor corrections to the passages cited from Scripture.
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« Reply #74 on: May 03, 2012, 12:22:31 AM »

I haven't seen the Acts420 Translation of the Bible on amazon.com....

That's because I don't sell the word of God.  "Unlike so many, we do not sell the word of God. On the contrary, in Christ we speak before God with sincerity, as those sent from God."  2 Corinthians 2:17

Lust, the English word, is defined as an intense desire.  Sometimes it is used or meant in a sexual context, as in an intense sexual desire.  But sometimes it is used in other contexts.  The greek word is epithymia.

epithymia = lust = intense desire .  Even Christ had epithymia.  Christ had lust.  Christ had intense desires.  There is nothing sinful about lust in and of itself.  The object and context of the lust is what matters ethically speaking.

I'm not "stuck on lust" as you say.  I'm simply concerned that people here are saying lust is a sin.  That is falsehood.  Christ lusted as recorded in the Scriptures.  We should not be implying that Christ was a sinner.
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« Reply #75 on: May 03, 2012, 12:33:00 AM »

Christ had lust.

How do you know?

Christ had intense desires.

How do you know?

I'm not "stuck on lust" as you say.  I'm simply concerned that people here are saying lust is a sin.  That is falsehood.  Christ lusted as recorded in the Scriptures.  We should not be implying that Christ was a sinner.

What Scriptures?  I use the Orthodox Study Bible; what Scriptures do you rely on?
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« Reply #76 on: May 03, 2012, 02:16:33 AM »

Christ had lust.
How do you know?

I believe the Bible.  The Bible says Christ had epithymia.  epithymia = lust = intense desire.  Lust is not always a sexual word.  It simply means "intense desire."

Christ had intense desires.
How do you know?

"With fervent desire lust (epithymia) I have desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer.'"  (Luke 22:16)

I'm not "stuck on lust" as you say.  I'm simply concerned that people here are saying lust is a sin.  That is falsehood.  Christ lusted as recorded in the Scriptures.  We should not be implying that Christ was a sinner.

What Scriptures?  I use the Orthodox Study Bible; what Scriptures do you rely on?

The holy ones, preferably in the original languages.
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In Christ,
Jason
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ironchapman
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« Reply #77 on: December 14, 2012, 12:12:34 PM »

Bump to post this:

Collin Klein, the Kansas State QB's first kiss with his now-wife was at the altar.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/gameon/2012/11/01/collin-klein-first-kiss/1674805/
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« Reply #78 on: December 14, 2012, 12:33:03 PM »

Bump to post this:

Collin Klein, the Kansas State QB's first kiss with his now-wife was at the altar.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/gameon/2012/11/01/collin-klein-first-kiss/1674805/

Thanks for the update. However, if this starts another Actian round, i will be watching you like a hawk!  Wink police angel
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« Reply #79 on: December 14, 2012, 05:30:42 PM »

Bump to post this:

Collin Klein, the Kansas State QB's first kiss with his now-wife was at the altar.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/gameon/2012/11/01/collin-klein-first-kiss/1674805/

Thanks for the update. However, if this starts another Actian round, i will be watching you like a hawk!  Wink police angel
I have no intention of joining that fight.
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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." --Bertrand Russell
Justin Kissel
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« Reply #80 on: March 11, 2013, 10:06:29 AM »

When will the madness end?

http://youtu.be/Xp-jZyzQSms
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« Reply #81 on: March 11, 2013, 05:00:44 PM »

I don't think it is wrong to kiss your woman before you get married, but if you can abstain from it, I think it would be the best choice of all. What an exciting wedding night!

Kiss your woman? Huh  Wonderful choice of words there - that evokes such tender, romantic images of a young couple in love.  Did you mistype these words when your mullet fell into your eyes, or were you distracted by the dawgs hollerin in the front yard?

Awww.  Someone got butthurt.
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I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.
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« Reply #82 on: March 11, 2013, 05:03:29 PM »

Christ had lust.

How do you know?

Christ had intense desires.

How do you know?

I'm not "stuck on lust" as you say.  I'm simply concerned that people here are saying lust is a sin.  That is falsehood.  Christ lusted as recorded in the Scriptures.  We should not be implying that Christ was a sinner.

What Scriptures?  I use the Orthodox Study Bible; what Scriptures do you rely on?

Christ had every temptation that we have.  And He overcame them all.  Or, have you been taught some other form or Christianity?
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I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.
SolEX01
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« Reply #83 on: March 11, 2013, 05:57:55 PM »

Christ had lust.

How do you know?

Christ had intense desires.

How do you know?

I'm not "stuck on lust" as you say.  I'm simply concerned that people here are saying lust is a sin.  That is falsehood.  Christ lusted as recorded in the Scriptures.  We should not be implying that Christ was a sinner.

What Scriptures?  I use the Orthodox Study Bible; what Scriptures do you rely on?

Christ had every temptation that we have.  And He overcame them all.  Or, have you been taught some other form or Christianity?

No, I haven't been taught some other form of Christianity.  I was opposing him on pre-marital sex.
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« Reply #84 on: April 05, 2013, 11:47:24 PM »

I was at a wedding like this back in the late 80s. Prior to marriage, the couple did nothing more than occasional hand holding and the sharing of little endearments on notes…since they limited physical expressions of their love, they had to be creative and find all sorts of other ways to show it. Their wedding kiss was their first, and I must admit that it was a beautiful and joyful moment for both of them and those who had the privilege to be invited to witness their union as man and wife.
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