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Author Topic: Does an Orthodox have to marry an Orthodox???  (Read 6824 times) Average Rating: 0
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Irenaeus07
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« on: August 29, 2008, 10:55:32 PM »

Becoming a monk is out of the question for me now.  I don't see myself as a monk.  So I will have to get married.  In my previous religion, I was allowed to marry outside my religion, but I always said I would prefer to marry somebody within my religion, which I why I am single.  So 5 years and not married.  Now I am about embark upon the Orthodox path. And I ask myself, if i am forced to marry an Orthodox, I don't think I will ever get married.  So I am trying to figure out my options.

Lord Have Mercy
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« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2008, 11:50:16 PM »

Mixed marriages are permitted between an Orthodox Christian and a Christian with a Trinitarian baptism.  I believe that a petition needs to be made to your hierarch and that your future spouse will need to agree to baptise and raise any/all children as Orthodox.
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« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2008, 11:51:38 PM »

Becoming a monk is out of the question for me now.  I don't see myself as a monk.  So I will have to get married.  In my previous religion, I was allowed to marry outside my religion, but I always said I would prefer to marry somebody within my religion, which I why I am single.  So 5 years and not married.  Now I am about embark upon the Orthodox path. And I ask myself, if i am forced to marry an Orthodox, I don't think I will ever get married.  So I am trying to figure out my options.

Lord Have Mercy

Lots of Orthodox girls out there. The Lord provides...
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« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2008, 02:41:10 AM »

Becoming a monk is out of the question for me now.  I don't see myself as a monk.  So I will have to get married.  In my previous religion, I was allowed to marry outside my religion, but I always said I would prefer to marry somebody within my religion, which I why I am single.  So 5 years and not married.  Now I am about embark upon the Orthodox path. And I ask myself, if i am forced to marry an Orthodox, I don't think I will ever get married.  So I am trying to figure out my options.

Lord Have Mercy

I'm still not sure though why you think you couldn't be a monk.  You may not see yourself as a monk, but God may have other plans Smiley.  If you haven't been to a monastery, you should go and at least see monasticism before you decide anything.  The important thing is to remain open to God's Will, whatever that may be.  Besides, as Ukiemeister said, there are girls out there that are Orthodox, and you can always convert one too and then marry her Wink
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« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2008, 02:59:20 AM »

Mixed marriages are permitted between an Orthodox Christian and a Christian with a Trinitarian baptism.  I believe that a petition needs to be made to your hierarch and that your future spouse will need to agree to baptise and raise any/all children as Orthodox.

How does it work when an Orthodox marries a Catholic (Latin or Eastern)?  I know that the Latin Church, in the case in which one future spouse is non-Catholic, requires the non-Catholic to agree to baptize and raise any children from that marriage as Catholic.  It seems one side has to back down in its demands on the other in order for the marriage to take place.  If not, both sides go into the marriage with contradictory agreements. 
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« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2008, 03:01:19 AM »

I'm still not sure though why you think you couldn't be a monk.  You may not see yourself as a monk, but God may have other plans Smiley.  If you haven't been to a monastery, you should go and at least see monasticism before you decide anything.  The important thing is to remain open to God's Will, whatever that may be.  Besides, as Ukiemeister said, there are girls out there that are Orthodox, and you can always convert one too and then marry her Wink

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« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2008, 08:09:47 AM »

No.  Smiley
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« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2008, 11:14:08 AM »

How does it work when an Orthodox marries a Catholic (Latin or Eastern)?  I know that the Latin Church, in the case in which one future spouse is non-Catholic, requires the non-Catholic to agree to baptize and raise any children from that marriage as Catholic.  It seems one side has to back down in its demands on the other in order for the marriage to take place.  If not, both sides go into the marriage with contradictory agreements. 

Well, it depends.  If you want to get married in the RCC, the Orthodox member would have to agree to raise any children RC.  If you get married in the Orthodox Church, the RC member would have to agree to raise any children Orthodox.  Of course, this raises issues such as the member who is being married outside of his/her Church will be suspended from receiving the Eucharist at their Church.
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« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2008, 11:18:57 AM »

or any sacrament for that matter.
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« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2008, 12:15:43 PM »

Well, it depends.  If you want to get married in the RCC, the Orthodox member would have to agree to raise any children RC.  If you get married in the Orthodox Church, the RC member would have to agree to raise any children Orthodox.  Of course, this raises issues such as the member who is being married outside of his/her Church will be suspended from receiving the Eucharist at their Church.

Not quite, Friul. A Roman Catholic who marries in an Orthodox church retains full right of communion in that church. The RC church does recognise the validity of the Orthodox ceremony, the Orthodox Church does not recognise the validity of the RC rite, in part because there is a eucharistic component in that ceremony, which would, to put it mildly, be a problem for the Orthodox spouse-to-be.
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« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2008, 12:57:29 PM »

Not quite, Friul. A Roman Catholic who marries in an Orthodox church retains full right of communion in that church. The RC church does recognise the validity of the Orthodox ceremony, the Orthodox Church does not recognise the validity of the RC rite, in part because there is a eucharistic component in that ceremony, which would, to put it mildly, be a problem for the Orthodox spouse-to-be.

I know a Roman Catholic could marry within an Orthodox Church if they receive the blessing of their Bishop, but if a proper blessing is not received, I don't think the RCC will view the wedding as valid.  But, even if they get the blessing, the couple would have to agree to raise any children as Roman Catholic.
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« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2008, 04:42:19 PM »

I'm still not sure though why you think you couldn't be a monk. 

Because I've practiced ascetism before and I know what it requires and I am not made to be an ascetic.

Yes I've been to a monastery before.  More power to them.

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« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2008, 04:46:51 PM »

Because I've practiced ascetism before and I know what it requires and I am not made to be an ascetic.
Marriage is an ascesis too. It can help destroy the ego.
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« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2008, 04:58:01 PM »

Marriage is an ascesis too. It can help will destroy the ego.

There, fixed it. Wink
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« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2008, 09:46:38 PM »

Marriage is an ascesis too. It can help destroy the ego.

 I have no desire to become a monk.  it is not my calling.  I understand the need to kill the ego.  But I don't want to live a monastery to kill it.  I would rather do it through marriage.

In Christ,

Irenaeus
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« Reply #15 on: August 31, 2008, 04:29:56 AM »

I can understand your point, my brother. As "formally" RC experiencing the first joys of Orthodoxy, which I'm going to convert to, I thought about this many times. I live in Italy, where the Orthodox Church is mainly "ethnical". Not many Orthodox girls out there. And exactly like you, I don't want a "mixed" family: I just want an Orthodox life, with an Orthodox wife educating with me Orthodox children. I'd like to go on Sundays to the Divine Liturgy, together with the family I built...
All this made me think of monasticism, but like you I finally understood that's not my path. Since I was very very young I always dreamt to raise my children, to partake my life with a woman. I think that's my vocation, but at the same time I find no possibilities, at the moment, to create this entirely new life. There are actually only Greek or Slav Orthodox girls here in Italy, and I'm not sure I'm going to take one as my wife (no racism, of course, but just I'd like an "Italian" wife). Yet, all these situations made me think that maybe I should just convert once for all: it'll be God himself to tell me (and you, maybe) what I should do with my life.

About the *possibility* to marry, you must know that an Orthodox marriage with a non-Orthodox woman is possible, especially if she's baptised. But you must raise your children as Orthodox, as some of our brethren on this forum already stated. I guess - or at least I read somewhere - that the only limit is in case you feel a priestly vocation: priests should be married with an Orthodox wife and if you're married with a non-Orthodox wife you'll never be listed as a candidate for Holy Orders.

In Christ,    Alex
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« Reply #16 on: August 31, 2008, 10:40:41 AM »

Marriage is an ascesis too. It can help destroy the ego.
That's an understatement. Not to mention that children destroy whatever's left.
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« Reply #17 on: August 31, 2008, 02:45:41 PM »

Any Orthodox girls around willing to get married?Huh?

(I'm interested also Smiley )
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« Reply #18 on: August 31, 2008, 03:54:41 PM »

That's an understatement. Not to mention that children destroy whatever's left.
Cheesy
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« Reply #19 on: September 04, 2008, 04:56:42 PM »

Any Orthodox girls around willing to get married?Huh?

(I'm interested also Smiley )

This kind of trolling is encouraged.  Cheesy
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« Reply #20 on: September 04, 2008, 08:26:38 PM »

I have no desire to become a monk.  it is not my calling.  I understand the need to kill the ego.  But I don't want to live a monastery to kill it.  I would rather do it through marriage.

In Christ,

Irenaeus

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« Reply #21 on: September 04, 2008, 08:29:00 PM »

Lots of Orthodox girls out there. The Lord provides...

Actually not quite true.  THe Orthodox Church here in the United States is the only one among the  Christian faiths where there is almost a parity of men and women actively involved in the church whereas among the Catholics and the more liberal mainstream Protestants, there is a plethora of women to men.  The southern Baptists generally have a great deal more men than women.

I've tried to find an Orthodox woman, but to no avail.  We're a very distinct minority here in the states let alone in Omaha.  However, we should also remember that though our faith is important to us in our practice and with our spouses and eventual children, the fact that one is not Orthodox should not be an automatic dealbreaker.  There are still lots of people here in the US who are looking for the truth in its fullness as taught by the Orthodox Church.  Converts often make the best Orthodox.  Maybe they'll come around to it, maybe not. Treat them as icons of Christ and love them.   Who knows what can happen?  THat advice was given to me by my godmother, a wife of a priest.  I feel it is sound.
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« Reply #22 on: September 04, 2008, 08:37:47 PM »

Actually not quite true.  THe Orthodox Church here in the United States is the only one among the  Christian faiths where there is almost a parity of men and women actively involved in the church whereas among the Catholics and the more liberal mainstream Protestants, there is a plethora of women to men.  The southern Baptists generally have a great deal more men than women.

I've tried to find an Orthodox woman, but to no avail.  We're a very distinct minority here in the states let alone in Omaha.  However, we should also remember that though our faith is important to us in our practice and with our spouses and eventual children, the fact that one is not Orthodox should not be an automatic dealbreaker.  There are still lots of people here in the US who are looking for the truth in its fullness as taught by the Orthodox Church.  Converts often make the best Orthodox.  Maybe they'll come around to it, maybe not. Treat them as icons of Christ and love them.   Who knows what can happen?  THat advice was given to me by my godmother, a wife of a priest.  I feel it is sound.

Well my point was that in the past I had also lamented the same seeming lack of Orthodx women, and in a fairly short period of time they seem to be coming out of the woodwork so to speak, at least in my city. There are probably a dozen or so girls in my age currently in local parishes that I know of. I realize they are not extremely common, my point being that if we trust in God, things will begin to look up in the future.
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« Reply #23 on: September 04, 2008, 09:02:52 PM »

No.  Smiley

Yes!
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« Reply #24 on: September 04, 2008, 09:14:01 PM »

Yes!

No, with the bishop's permission.
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« Reply #25 on: September 04, 2008, 10:42:25 PM »


the only limit is in case you feel a priestly vocation: priests should be married with an Orthodox wife and if you're married with a non-Orthodox wife you'll never be listed as a candidate for Holy Orders.



This is one key reason why OO churches do not permit what is phrased here as "mixed" marriages.

The 'concept' of these "mixed" religious (so-called) "unions" are filled with conditions and deal making and so on which is really more like 'arrangements' than actual Marriage in accordance with true Holy Orthodoxy.

The man and women become "one flesh" as St.Paul teaches the Holy Church. He says "it is a mystery".

The ordainence of marriage is thus a 'mystery'. Not a deal bewteen the two people.

Two people bound by common baptism only (if that is beleived) and NOT the 'whole' faith directly challenges the teachings of God in His Holy Church that by the grace of the Holy Spirit we are empowered and 'united' in "One faith and One love and One body and One baptism".

St. Paul teaches extensively on the matter.

Anything else is simply man trying to 'fix' things up or as I heard in a recent sermon "holy up" the matter. We need more convenience today and that is NO mystery....We all know what that is about!

Finally; (but not least) to engage the challenge the 'deal' of raising the children as 'orthodox' must be kept.Clearly this is a work of man....a "deal".....not a mystery.

Marriage is incorporated by the gift of the Holy Spirit and comsumated in the body and blood of Christ. That is why the Bride and groom after becoming Husband and Wife must take Holy Communion.....No 'deals' about this.

I know I am going to be ridiculed for this point of view since I know many EO who are in mixed marriages and wabnt to fell 'good about it; especially since the "the Church" approved it".

I am not talking about 'married' couples who were divided by one person coming into orthodoxy and the other remained outside. That is a different issue not for this thread.

Actually I have seen for myself a "mixed" marriage performed in a OO church. I was there. It was sad to see. The women was not crowned only the orthodox man was crowned and NO commune service was done. I was shocked. I asked myself "are they really married?" I presumed the answer is Yes since the preist did perform the rite. What is notable is that the rite was 'modified' to 'fit' the needs of the couple.

A few years latter A Hegumen (arch priest) upon my asking him how this happned he said: "We (clergy and laity) are custodians of the Holy Rites that has come to us from God in His Church. God will judge us for our well doing and our bad in this regard. He will also bless us for teaching the 'whole' truth which our Rites are firmly based and as such are holy....sacred mysteries that we mortal men have no part in shaping. If we fail to teach this basis and the 'whole' truth of it and people stumble than......God help us all!".

I got his point.

Marriage is a very sensitive area for us.

I pray that all who seek it get it but only by Gods will.

St Paul never married. He taught us how to approach the matter noting that it is good for a man to restrain himself if he is able. But if he burns inside than he should marry.

I pray that each of us knows when God is asking us to do His work. For some we are to be monks or nuns. Some will marry but will not be blessed with children, some will be single for life etc. Whatever we find oursleves in lets accept our condition with confidence without struggle with our desires or 'others' desires for us. I pray that we remain children of God in all matters. 'Whole'.

If you must marry an un-orthodox person and your OC will allow it than peace be unto you.

Just remember that no future in the church is possible. That is you are not ordainable. A very serious matter indeed. That is reason enough to reconsider.

Is it worth loosing your Rites in the Orthodox Holy Church?

For those who have OC's that will even ordain mixed married men. I would find another orthodox community to worship in.

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« Reply #26 on: September 04, 2008, 10:59:32 PM »

No, with the bishop's permission.

OK;

But in this case this is NOT a marriage of orthodoxy.

It is a 'special' case since the matter lacks the requirements of absolute orthodoxy thus the bishop must grant a dispensation and furnish an altered wedding Rite. Than after that the man who is in this 'marriage' is barred from Ordaination; effectively loosing his Rites as an Orthodox Christian.

High price indeed.

True Orthodox marriages donot have all these special needs and disqualifiers along with deals on how the kids are raised. The wedding is absolute, holy...pure and justified.

Thus nothing is better than an orthodox with an orthodox. No bishop would deny that fact.
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« Reply #27 on: September 05, 2008, 06:22:56 PM »

OK;

But in this case this is NOT a marriage of orthodoxy.

It is a 'special' case since the matter lacks the requirements of absolute orthodoxy thus the bishop must grant a dispensation and furnish an altered wedding Rite. Than after that the man who is in this 'marriage' is barred from Ordaination; effectively loosing his Rites as an Orthodox Christian.

High price indeed.

True Orthodox marriages donot have all these special needs and disqualifiers along with deals on how the kids are raised. The wedding is absolute, holy...pure and justified.

Thus nothing is better than an orthodox with an orthodox. No bishop would deny that fact.
So then, a bishop has no authority as shepherd of Christ's flock to grant oikonomia, to "make concessions" as he deems wisest for the salvation of each person under his charge?  This is, after all, just as much a part of our sacred Tradition as the unbending strictness you advocate.
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« Reply #28 on: September 05, 2008, 06:37:40 PM »

OK;

But in this case this is NOT a marriage of orthodoxy.

Would you like my bishop's address so you can write to him and tell him that what he's doing isn't Orthodox, as you accuse?

Quote
It is a 'special' case since the matter lacks the requirements of absolute orthodoxy thus the bishop must grant a dispensation and furnish an altered wedding Rite.

No, come to think of it, it's the same service so long as it's the first marriage.  If you think that's wrong, you may again write my bishop.

Quote
Than after that the man who is in this 'marriage' is barred from Ordaination; effectively loosing his Rites as an Orthodox Christian.

And here I was thinking that we recognized the laity as a distinct and necessary part of the Church in their own right, rather than second class members because they haven't been ordained.  To hear you tell it, only those who have been ordained are truly part of the Church.

Quote
High price indeed.

Only if someone ignores a calling to ordained ministry to pursue such a marriage; someone who does not have that vocation doesn't pay a "high price" by giving up the hope of being ordained.

Quote
True Orthodox marriages donot have all these special needs and disqualifiers along with deals on how the kids are raised. The wedding is absolute, holy...pure and justified.

What special deals are you insinuating exist?  The obligation of an Orthodox parent in a mixed marriage is the same as two Orthodox parents in another marriage: to baptise and raise their children in the Orthodox faith.  The same expectations are placed; special deals aren't made.
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« Reply #29 on: September 05, 2008, 06:41:29 PM »

Yes!

Fr. Deacon Amde, but does he, really? Does he have an OBLIGATION to marry ANYBODY? Smiley Smiley Smiley
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« Reply #30 on: September 06, 2008, 02:48:10 PM »

OK;

But in this case this is NOT a marriage of orthodoxy.

Would you like my bishop's address so you can write to him and tell him that what he's doing isn't Orthodox, as you accuse?

Quote
It is a 'special' case since the matter lacks the requirements of absolute orthodoxy thus the bishop must grant a dispensation and furnish an altered wedding Rite.

No, come to think of it, it's the same service so long as it's the first marriage.  If you think that's wrong, you may again write my bishop.

Quote
Than after that the man who is in this 'marriage' is barred from Ordaination; effectively loosing his Rites as an Orthodox Christian.

And here I was thinking that we recognized the laity as a distinct and necessary part of the Church in their own right, rather than second class members because they haven't been ordained.  To hear you tell it, only those who have been ordained are truly part of the Church.

Quote
High price indeed.

Only if someone ignores a calling to ordained ministry to pursue such a marriage; someone who does not have that vocation doesn't pay a "high price" by giving up the hope of being ordained.

Quote
True Orthodox marriages donot have all these special needs and disqualifiers along with deals on how the kids are raised. The wedding is absolute, holy...pure and justified.

What special deals are you insinuating exist?  The obligation of an Orthodox parent in a mixed marriage is the same as two Orthodox parents in another marriage: to baptise and raise their children in the Orthodox faith.  The same expectations are placed; special deals aren't made.

I have no reason to write to your bishop; but thank you!

I pray that our father is well in all matters.

I did not post on this thread to offend anyone or to state something that makes anyone feel uncomfortable. The subject is very difficult I am aware.

Please try not to be defensive. You have nothing to defend.

If a bishop has authorised mixed marriages. Case closed. It is on him.

All bishops do not agree on the mixed marriage idea which is what I am stating and for many very good reason. Some of which I already stated.

Also; there is a command from God to all His children: "Do not be UNEQUALLY yoked". A man and women thus are to be in 'spiritual harmony'.

A baptist and an orthodox for example can not be equally yoked. The baptist person may be "baptised" in a so-called trinitarian manner (if that is believed) but the faith of this 'baptist' person does not follow. They (baptist) do not care for the saints, martyrs, fasting, rigorous prayer life and so on.

Most skocking is they do not believe that Holy Communion is really the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ.

Further is they do not believe that our mother the Theotokos is of any consequence or value in life or the church or anything.

I only used 'baptist' as an example. It can be any other so-called "christian" religion and the point remians.

The orthodox person in the mixed marriage would have to 'arrange' to have the kids be raised orthodox (if God even allows kids). The kids will be growing up with the divisive mindset that they are 'orthodox but their parents are baptist and orthodox mixed'. I hear this a lot today from young adults that have left the church due to this confusion.

I was not and are not "accusing" any bishop.

As far as ordination. I made no such implication about "first class" or any kind of "class" system.

Actually the laity is the most important order in the church. ALL clergy must first be laity. The clergy is the second order of importance. NOT first as many presume. We are servants; prisoners of the Lord as St. Paul said.

I was simply noting that fact that the mixed marraige of an orthodox man comes with a price that a purely orthodox (or unmixed) marriage does not. Of the seven sacrament of the Holy Orthodox Church 'Ordination' is voided for the mixed married orthodox man. I am not saying that the man wants or do not want ordination. I am saying that the rite is voided....period. It is a statement of fact. I am not concening this matter with who or how important or who is not in the church.

You or anyone may get married to anyone you choose if there is a bishop that will perform it. I am stating that such marriages are not purely orthodox and as such should not be the standard for us.

I was not and are not "accusing" any bishop.

Mixed marriages are special cases and not the standard protocol of the orthodox faith. I already know that your bishop agrees with that fact and that orthodox christians should be married only to orthodox christians.

Imagine if all men in the orthodox church was in mixed marriages.

Where would our clergy come from?

I guess we would start making more dispensations for the sacrament of ordination as well.

Where does it end after that?
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« Reply #31 on: September 06, 2008, 02:54:57 PM »

Yes!

Fr. Deacon Amde, but does he, really? Does he have an OBLIGATION to marry ANYBODY? Smiley Smiley Smiley

WE marry if God allows us.

We have Kids if God allows us.

Yes we are the House of God. We do not divide the faith. It is all or nothing.

How wants to share life with a non-believer albiet in a so-called trinitarian baptism?

I know the answer! Thanks.
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« Reply #32 on: September 06, 2008, 03:01:27 PM »

Yes!

Fr. Deacon Amde, but does he, really? Does he have an OBLIGATION to marry ANYBODY? Smiley Smiley Smiley

WE marry if God allows us.

We have Kids if God allows us.

Yes we are the House of God. We do not divide the faith. It is all or nothing.

How wants to share life with a non-believer albiet in a so-called trinitarian baptism?

I know the answer! Thanks.

I thought we marry when we love someone, no?
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« Reply #33 on: September 06, 2008, 03:10:43 PM »

In my former church nobody was allowed to date anybody who was not a member in good standing of the church. I don't think it hardly ever crossed anyone's minds to do otherwise. The ministry often used the verse "Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness?" (2 Cor 6:14) to explain that marriage should only take place between two believers. I still have this mentality in the back of my mind, and alas, from very painful experience, I wish I would have heeded it instead of trying to do things my way by getting involved with a man who was neither a professing Christian, nor Orthodox. I had been advised by my Orthodox friends and even priests that it's okay to date non-Orthodox men, but alas, in my case, this did not pan out to be good advice.  We reap what we sow and I certainly did. I am suffering the consequences to this day. I think if one is really serious about the Faith, he will try his best to marry someone of "like precious faith". Just my two cents worth.
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« Reply #34 on: September 06, 2008, 07:29:51 PM »

We reap what we sow and I certainly did. I am suffering the consequences to this day. I think if one is really serious about the Faith, he will try his best to marry someone of "like precious faith". Just my two cents worth.

Make it 3 cents worth.   Smiley

People can put up a lot of false appearances including displaying "precious faith" where none exists.  In my experience, attending Church festivals with a non-Orthodox estranged spouse "could" plant a seed in that person about the Orthodox faith; one never knows.  I know both my estranged wife and her niece had a lot of questions about the Orthodox faith (and JW's) while attending 2 Church festivals.

A lot of non-Orthodox marry in Orthodox Churches because Church oikonomia allows them to do so in the hope that the Sacrament of Holy Matrimony persuades them to Orthodoxy.  Since many non-Orthodox (and some Orthodox) do not have clear idea of how the Orthodox faith differs from their present religious status, these people merely go along for the ride.  When the children arrive and the non-Orthodox Church is a mile away and the Orthodox Church is a 30 minute drive into an urban area, will either spouse choose to martyr his/herself for the other or will one/both take the easy way out?
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« Reply #35 on: September 08, 2008, 09:19:32 PM »

Heorhij

I married because I love Jesus Christ and the hope for the kingdom of heaven.
Some people marry for other kinds of love.

We are taught to "seek first the kingdom of Heaven and by such all other things will be given to us".

You of course know that this is the teaching of God.

How can you love someone who DOES NOT love the lord as you do?

What then is it about them that you are attracted? Thier eyes or other physical and or emotional things?

In the Orthodox Church We are taught to worship God. If this is true than how can we worship God with a person who does not believe and still be orthodox?

Is not man and wife ONE flesh? It seems that the answer is yes if BOTH are ONE in ALL things...NO division!

To be ONE with God in all things and in every way.

Even our priests in many cases obstain from such teaching since it is very upsetting to the people who really want what 'they' want when it comes to "love".

First things first.

WE must love the Lord with all our might and all our heart.

HE is first in our lives at all times till death and beyond.

If we have this correct than it is easy to see how we are to be ONE with our husbands and wives.

ONE!

No bishop or priest will deny that this is true; even if they allow something else to occur.
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« Reply #36 on: September 08, 2008, 09:43:44 PM »

We reap what we sow and I certainly did. I am suffering the consequences to this day. I think if one is really serious about the Faith, he will try his best to marry someone of "like precious faith". Just my two cents worth.

Make it 3 cents worth.   Smiley

People can put up a lot of false appearances including displaying "precious faith" where none exists.  In my experience, attending Church festivals with a non-Orthodox estranged spouse "could" plant a seed in that person about the Orthodox faith; one never knows.  I know both my estranged wife and her niece had a lot of questions about the Orthodox faith (and JW's) while attending 2 Church festivals.

A lot of non-Orthodox marry in Orthodox Churches because Church oikonomia allows them to do so in the hope that the Sacrament of Holy Matrimony persuades them to Orthodoxy.  Since many non-Orthodox (and some Orthodox) do not have clear idea of how the Orthodox faith differs from their present religious status, these people merely go along for the ride.  When the children arrive and the non-Orthodox Church is a mile away and the Orthodox Church is a 30 minute drive into an urban area, will either spouse choose to martyr his/herself for the other or will one/both take the easy way out?

It seems to people that it is good to use the Holy Sacraments to persuade non-believers. I have heard this before.

This action is ruthless and contradicts our true orthodox faith.

IT only 'sounds' good.

The Holy Spirit maintains and provides the strenght we need. WE do not have use what you call "oikonomia" with the Marriage Sacrament to blaze the trail to Christ. The Lord has already provided well enough for this.This is just a way that people put this to justify the unfotunate nature of 'mixed' unions in the 'Uni'-versal (un-mixed) church of God.

The truth is people really want the person as a husband or a wife MORE than any missionizing effort.

What happens if you cast pearls before a swine?

You should seek the answer since we are commanded by the lord to NOT do that ... AT ALL.

The sacraments are Holy and pure. A gift of Gods to His true believers only. Not to be used outside on people who are NOT with God and or are not orthodox.

I am sorry for Rosehip and many like her. I am currently counseling people on the same matter.

God bless you Rosehip. Please do not give up hope.
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« Reply #37 on: September 08, 2008, 09:53:08 PM »

In my former church nobody was allowed to date anybody who was not a member in good standing of the church. I don't think it hardly ever crossed anyone's minds to do otherwise. The ministry often used the verse "Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness?" (2 Cor 6:14) to explain that marriage should only take place between two believers. I still have this mentality in the back of my mind, and alas, from very painful experience, I wish I would have heeded it instead of trying to do things my way by getting involved with a man who was neither a professing Christian, nor Orthodox. I had been advised by my Orthodox friends and even priests that it's okay to date non-Orthodox men, but alas, in my case, this did not pan out to be good advice.  We reap what we sow and I certainly did. I am suffering the consequences to this day. I think if one is really serious about the Faith, he will try his best to marry someone of "like precious faith". Just my two cents worth.

I believe that "mixed" marriages can work; but from what I have witnessed I wonder if they might not be worth the risk. Having said that, it's very difficult to think altogether rationally when one finds oneself loving the "wrong person". My daughter who was not quite Orthodox at the time met a young man had been brought up neither Orthodox, nor Christian. They were both baptised into Orthodoxy two weeks before their wedding. God, through love, can do great things. 
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« Reply #38 on: September 08, 2008, 10:06:26 PM »

Riddi, I'm so happy things worked out for your daughter and her husband. You are right though-the more differences between the couple, be they cultural or religious, the more challenging the relationship may become after the initial glow.

Amdetsion, thank you so much for your kind words to me. I wish I had counselled with you a couple of years ago, and that I would have had the humility, patience and grace to accept such counselling...
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« Reply #39 on: September 08, 2008, 10:07:38 PM »

In my former church nobody was allowed to date anybody who was not a member in good standing of the church. I don't think it hardly ever crossed anyone's minds to do otherwise. The ministry often used the verse "Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness?" (2 Cor 6:14) to explain that marriage should only take place between two believers. I still have this mentality in the back of my mind, and alas, from very painful experience, I wish I would have heeded it instead of trying to do things my way by getting involved with a man who was neither a professing Christian, nor Orthodox. I had been advised by my Orthodox friends and even priests that it's okay to date non-Orthodox men, but alas, in my case, this did not pan out to be good advice.  We reap what we sow and I certainly did. I am suffering the consequences to this day. I think if one is really serious about the Faith, he will try his best to marry someone of "like precious faith". Just my two cents worth.

I believe that "mixed" marriages can work; but from what I have witnessed I wonder if they might not be worth the risk. Having said that, it's very difficult to think altogether rationally when one finds oneself loving the "wrong person". My daughter who was not quite Orthodox at the time met a young man had been brought up neither Orthodox, nor Christian. They were both baptised into Orthodoxy two weeks before their wedding. God, through love, can do great things. 

Who needs that kind of risk? NOBODY!

However; I am happy for your daughter!!!

This is truly an example we all should appreciate. The way they came together was complete and pure; full of the wonders and mystery of Holy Orthodoxy.

No deals or concessions.

Unity!

Thank Christ.

I Hope that all is well with them and the life of orthodoxy they may hopeful share for many, many years.
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« Reply #40 on: September 08, 2008, 10:12:36 PM »

Riddi, I'm so happy things worked out for your daughter and her husband. You are right though-the more differences between the couple, be they cultural or religious, the more challenging the relationship may become after the initial glow.

Amdetsion, thank you so much for your kind words to me. I wish I had counselled with you a couple of years ago, and that I would have had the humility, patience and grace to accept such counselling...

I will say a special prayer for you tonight.

In the meantime we all must learn to accept our circiumstances without complaint. God has a hand in everthing for those who are truly believing and wait on Him.
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« Reply #41 on: September 08, 2008, 10:24:55 PM »

Who needs that kind of risk? NOBODY!

I agree. It's not something I would care to risk, but I'm not young and impetuous, anymore!

Quote
However; I am happy for your daughter!!!

This is truly an example we all should appreciate. The way they came together was complete and pure; full of the wonders and mystery of Holy Orthodoxy.

No deals or concessions.

It was a truly beautiful thing to see. I thank Christ, but I shall also be eternally grateful to the Theotokos, for I believe She was praying for this as much as I was.  Smiley

Quote

I Hope that all is well with them and the life of orthodoxy they may hopeful share for many, many years.

Thank you, very much.
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« Reply #42 on: September 18, 2008, 12:43:48 AM »

I'm not sure why you think it is impossible you could marry someone orthodox. Maybe you could go live in an Orthodox country for a while if there is really a shortage.

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« Reply #43 on: September 18, 2008, 02:04:57 AM »

As an Orthodox Christian who married a practicing Roman Catholic a number of years ago, I know something about this subject and wanted to comment on a couple of posts I've read here.

Friul wrote: "I believe that a petition needs to be made to your hierarch and that your future spouse will need to agree to baptise and raise any/all children as Orthodox."
Likewise, "St. George" wrote: "I know that the Latin Church, in the case in which one future spouse is non-Catholic, requires the non-Catholic to agree to baptize and raise any children from that marriage as Catholic."

Fortunately, when I and my then-Catholic wife (since converted to Orthodoxy) had our two marriage ceremonies - one in each church - we had to go through some sort of counseling in each church. Thankfully, we were not required by a priest of either faith to make such a promise. This was a good thing, since it would probably have required one or the other of us to make an ultimatum to the other - that's never a good way to start off a marriage. In the Catholic church, I was asked "Do you ever intend to deny your wife the right to have children?" I answered "no" and that satisified that Catholic priest. No ultimatum was requested as to which faith they would be raised in. As for the children question, I don't think many Orthodox priests would have had a problem with the (strong) suggestion that children are a component of marriage.

LBK wrote: "The Orthodox Church does not recognise the validity of the RC rite, in part because there is a eucharistic component in that ceremony, which would, to put it mildly, be a problem for the Orthodox spouse-to-be."

While it's true that the eucharist is served in Catholic wedding ceremonies, the couple have the right to waive this. In our case, we elected to cut this out of our ceremony not only because I could not take communion, but because so many of our friends were not Catholic. I sensed a bit of dissapointment on the Catholic priest's face that we cut this out of the ceremony, but he agreed to do it. I think that decision saved us a bunch of discomfort by all parties involved. I still find it unusual that the Catholic church serves communion at weddings and funerals, but that's probably my cultural unfamiliarity with their eucharist theology, perhaps?
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« Reply #44 on: September 18, 2008, 03:04:16 PM »

As an Orthodox Christian who married a practicing Roman Catholic a number of years ago, I know something about this subject and wanted to comment on a couple of posts I've read here.

Friul wrote: "I believe that a petition needs to be made to your hierarch and that your future spouse will need to agree to baptise and raise any/all children as Orthodox."
Likewise, "St. George" wrote: "I know that the Latin Church, in the case in which one future spouse is non-Catholic, requires the non-Catholic to agree to baptize and raise any children from that marriage as Catholic."

Fortunately, when I and my then-Catholic wife (since converted to Orthodoxy) had our two marriage ceremonies - one in each church - we had to go through some sort of counseling in each church. Thankfully, we were not required by a priest of either faith to make such a promise. This was a good thing, since it would probably have required one or the other of us to make an ultimatum to the other - that's never a good way to start off a marriage. In the Catholic church, I was asked "Do you ever intend to deny your wife the right to have children?" I answered "no" and that satisified that Catholic priest. No ultimatum was requested as to which faith they would be raised in. As for the children question, I don't think many Orthodox priests would have had a problem with the (strong) suggestion that children are a component of marriage.

LBK wrote: "The Orthodox Church does not recognise the validity of the RC rite, in part because there is a eucharistic component in that ceremony, which would, to put it mildly, be a problem for the Orthodox spouse-to-be."

While it's true that the eucharist is served in Catholic wedding ceremonies, the couple have the right to waive this. In our case, we elected to cut this out of our ceremony not only because I could not take communion, but because so many of our friends were not Catholic. I sensed a bit of dissapointment on the Catholic priest's face that we cut this out of the ceremony, but he agreed to do it. I think that decision saved us a bunch of discomfort by all parties involved. I still find it unusual that the Catholic church serves communion at weddings and funerals, but that's probably my cultural unfamiliarity with their eucharist theology, perhaps?

Eugenio

I am happy that your wife is now an Orthodox Christian. Praise The lord!

Your story about how you got married was rather interesting in certain aspects shocking.

I was amazed that you were able to direct the priest as to how the Marriage Rite would be performed. You were even able to make omissions that as you put it "the priest was disappointed about" and you made this omission for "friends" which have no part in the marriage. This is what was shocking. The Holy Communion you omitted is the only means by which the marriage can be consumated in Christs precious Body and precious Blood.

The Orthodox Church follows the same practice.

An Orthodox Christian should know this. This is not advanced theology.

The priest was more likely concerned more for the spiritual purity of the Marriage Rite (he was performing albeit with your changes and omissions)and not "disappointment" simply because you did not want the full Rite.

You had two Marriage Rites for one couple. One at the RC and one at the OC.

This is something that really scares me everytime I here it.

How will you know which one was the truly binding one? Which priest shall council the marriage over the years?

The questions are endless.

I pray that this kind of placation will not effect us all but just a small few.

I must say (please allow me) that It is so comforting for me that OO Churches do not perform anything like this. At lease not the Ethiopian Church. The Coptic as well for the most part.

Marriage is one of the Seven Holy Sacraments of the Church established by Christ and the Apostles. In the Ethiopian Church all sacraments are inextricably connected. One! To discard one or change one is to change them all. The Holy Sacrament are for the true believers 'only' for us that is the 'Orthodox'. We do not offer or 'share' these holiest of blessings with others. Only the priest can make changes or omissions to a sacrament or practice of the Holy Church. Note that it is very very rare that any changes are made at all with any Sacrament. Be sure that if so it wil never be for 'convenience'. The circumstances would have to be extraordinary and even still will be reviewed by bishops before such change or omission is allowed.

This is sound orthodox practice.

That you were able to make your own changes and omissions to one of the holiest Rites of Christianity and that you did because of the concern of "friends" is quite remarkable.

I pray that you continue to cherish your blessings and increase in faith and have a full life with your orthodox wife.

Maybe you and her can consider a full 'Orthodox Marriage Rite' now?

PS:
I am not trying to be difficult Eugenio. I am a very conservative defender of the Holy Sacraments and orthodoxy as many people already know on this forum. My error often is that I am too unkind in my words at times. Please try to understand the simple aspect of my intent. I mean not to be offensive. It is a very delicate subject.

Please pray for me



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« Reply #45 on: September 18, 2008, 04:44:51 PM »

The Holy Communion you omitted is the only means by which the marriage can be consumated in Christs precious Body and precious Blood.
Really?  I had always thought that a marriage is consummated through sexual relations.  According to your logic, how could marriage even exist before Christ gave us the Eucharist?  What was that, then, that Jesus attended at Cana?
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« Reply #46 on: September 18, 2008, 05:07:12 PM »

Quote
Really?  I had always thought that a marriage is consummated through sexual relations.  According to your logic, how could marriage even exist before Christ gave us the Eucharist?  What was that, then, that Jesus attended at Cana?
As some theologists say, Matrimony is chronologically the first sacrament: it preceeds even the Church!
By the way, the image of partaking in Holy Communion is taken from the traditional Jewish rite of marriage, where a cup of wine is passed and drunk by bride and bridegroom... I don't think Holy Communion is the rite by which the marriage is sealed: it's the Crowning.

As I don't like interdenominational marriages, I still prefer a civil marriage followed by the blessings of the ministers of both confessions: and blessing can't be denied even to the non-orthodox. Maybe in these rites, Holy Communion could be replaced by the Antidoron? That would be a good symbol of communion, a valid way to bless the couple, and it's also licit as antidoron can be offered to the heterodox too. What do you think about this?

In Christ,   Alex

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« Reply #47 on: September 18, 2008, 05:35:11 PM »

It would seem quite difficult for me to marry an Orthodox because of these requirements. It would have to be an EO who does not take her faith seriously, obviously, but why would I want to marry a secularized lapsed EO?

However, there is a very lovely Greek Orthodox girl whom I might ask out at some point. She finds the community life at local EO parishes to be dead, so she goes to an Evangelical church popular with young people (Park Street Church in Boston) every week and attends Divine Liturgy only occasionally. She even gets involved in various young adult social and spiritual gatherings (collectively called "Cafe") at Park Street. I know her through my brother, a Park Street attendee (I've only been to a couple of services at that church before---not my cup of tea at all!).

I suspect she is a branch theorist and does not take seriously the EO Church's claims to exclusivity, so she wouldn't object to allowing the kids to be raised Catholic.

Otherwise, I don't see how it would work out.

It seems to me that in a case of serious practitioners of Orthodoxy and another traditional Church/denomination, one or the other ends up converting.

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« Reply #48 on: September 18, 2008, 06:12:46 PM »

Amdetsion wrote:

"I was amazed that you were able to direct the priest as to how the Marriage Rite would be performed."

In the case of the Catholic priest, this is common - insofar as the marriage rite under the Novus Ordo allows for certain choices. For example, we were able to pick out the Gospel readings during the ceremony - from about 3-4 pre-approved choices by the U.S. Council of Catholic Bishops.

"The Orthodox Church follows the same practice (regarding the eucharist).An Orthodox Christian should know this. This is not advanced theology."

No, the Orthodox Church has a very different theology regarding the eucharist. Priests are only allowed to give it out once daily. Catholic priests can give it out numerous times in one day. That's why the Catholic church allows (and even encourages) the sacrament of the eucharist at weddings and funerals - whereas I (and I assume some other Orthodox) would find this practice alien. Not making a judgement call here - but saying that this is a very significant departure from Orthodox practice.

"You had two Marriage Rites for one couple. One at the RC and one at the OC. This is something that really scares me everytime I here it."

This was the path recommended by my Orthodox priest - my father confessor! Being that both churches consider marriage a holy sacrament (or mystery, as the Orthodox call it) both want their own adherents married in their church. The Catholic Church recognizes the validity of Orthodox sacraments, and so my then-Catholic wife could have been married in the Orthodox Church and her church would have recognized the validity of the marriage sacrament. But being that the Orthodox Church does not reciprocate this, (to the best of my knowledge) I had to get married in an Orthodox Church. So we elected for a Catholic wedding in her hometown, and an Orthodox wedding where we lived. Thus we satisfied the canonical stipulations of both churches.

"How will you know which one was the truly binding one?

That's for Our Lord Jesus Christ to decide. I just wanted to follow the rules laid down by my bishop.

"Which priest shall council the marriage over the years?"

The father-confessor that the individual Christian adherent goes to, of course.

"I must say (please allow me) that It is so comforting for me that OO Churches do not perform anything like this. At lease not the Ethiopian Church. The Coptic as well for the most part."

Okay, so what do Oriental Orthodox churches do if one of the parties in the marriage is a Catholic?

"The Holy Sacrament are for the true believers 'only' for us that is the 'Orthodox'. We do not offer or 'share' these holiest of blessings with others."

The Catholic Church feels the same way about the eucharist as well, which is what the problem was when we were deciding upon a marriage ceremony. 

"That you were able to make your own changes and omissions to one of the holiest Rites of Christianity and that you did because of the concern of "friends" is quite remarkable."

Again the Novus Ordo rites followed by the current U.S. Catholic Church allow for some leeway in these matters - but the ultimate discretion is left up to the individual priest.

"Maybe you and her can consider a full 'Orthodox Marriage Rite' now?"

Already had one, thanks. As I wrote earlier, we did the Orthodox marriage after the Catholic one - about a month after, to be precise.
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Amdetsion
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« Reply #49 on: September 19, 2008, 11:23:35 AM »

The Holy Communion you omitted is the only means by which the marriage can be consumated in Christs precious Body and precious Blood.
Really?  I had always thought that a marriage is consummated through sexual relations.  According to your logic, how could marriage even exist before Christ gave us the Eucharist?  What was that, then, that Jesus attended at Cana?

This is an easy answer that you should know!

With the point of you question we could also ask: How did we worship God at all before Christ?

Prior to Christ and the establishment of His Holy Church on earth marriage and all types of orders of worship existed along with all of the pagan and heathen ritualism all of which were tossd out by our Lord Jesus Christ for His true beleivers.

The wedding at Cana was not A 'Christian' wedding. But you should know that!

One of the major themes of that reading is the fact that the Lord had not established His Church and ministry as he said to The Holy Virgin Mary: "It is not my time" when asked to react to the wine being finished. Albeit He did perform a miracle of changing the water into wine. This shows the power of the intercession of the Holy Virgin Mother of God.

Today certain things still cling to us. Especially those things that make 'absolute' sense to us like what you hold as 'consumating' a marriage is still a physical act to be done by men and NOT by God. With this method man still holds in his weak and corrupted hands some 'real' part of the Holy sacrament; in fact 'validating' the Holy Rite which is purely Holy and in Gods providence alone. WE actually have no part all.

The Marriage Rite is NOW within the Body of Christ.....all of it. We do not make the Rite firm and binding by our own sinful flesh and lusts. It is NOW the Flesh of the Lord Jesus Christ that is mingled with the married couple at the end of the wedding effectively "comsumating' the marriage in the Body of Christ. This means that NO man has a hand in the Marriage Rite or its validity. Consumation is by the Lord Jesus Christ Holy Body. Thus the Rite is pure and Holy. The new couple are ONE FLESH.....in Christ.

This is one of the major reasons why the Marriage Rite is referred to by the Holy Church as a 'Mystery'.

Christ leaves nothing unfinished.

He does not need us to help with the Sacraments by doing some physical action that any devil can do.

Our consumation is Holy, Pure and undefiled. Only Orthodox Christians enjoy such a beautiful mystery and experience. Man and woman may proceed as is natural and normal to Holy Matrimony and enjoy a life of bliss sharing in all things being one including the blessing of children and whatever else God allows them.

The key point is the Marriage Rite 'in-mass' is Christ's property. It is a Mystery.

Only God knows.

So it is very far from Mystery if we are allowed to 'make the rite work the way we want it to'.

Yes this is done a lot today. The Churches are allowing some of this liberalism with the Holy Rites. This has been so prevelant for so long that many people beleive that this is the norm and what I am saying is not.

That is what is alarming to me.

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« Reply #50 on: December 14, 2008, 12:55:52 PM »

Becoming a monk is out of the question for me now.  I don't see myself as a monk.  So I will have to get married.  In my previous religion, I was allowed to marry outside my religion, but I always said I would prefer to marry somebody within my religion, which I why I am single.  So 5 years and not married.  Now I am about embark upon the Orthodox path. And I ask myself, if i am forced to marry an Orthodox, I don't think I will ever get married.  So I am trying to figure out my options.

Lord Have Mercy

Peace be with you, in the Coptic Orthodox Church one must marry an Orthodox Christian.
To marry someone who is not Orthodox would require being unequally yoked and seen on par with marrying a Muslim (which is viewed very seriously in Egypt!).

Thankfully the Church is willing to help people in this regard. Traditionally arranged marriages have ensured that couples are very happy together. Now please don't be frightened by that term. Before marrying both of your priests have to agree that you are suited to one another and if your parents are in the Church then they must all agree as well. Then of course the two of you have to agree that you are suited.
If you don't already know each other, there are plenty of ways of getting to know one another without dating as this is not a practice which is encouraged and even some Protestants recognise that dating is a way of practising how to get divorced. Many Churches have community events where you can sit and talk together in a relaxed community atmosphere and find out about one another's interests without the pressures connected with dating.

If you would like to know more about this please ask a priest, someone who is married or somebody interested in marriage.

Thank you and pray for me please.
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« Reply #51 on: December 14, 2008, 04:26:38 PM »

Quote
in the Coptic Orthodox Church one must marry an Orthodox Christian

What happens if a Coptic Orthodox Christians marries a person who is not an Orthodox Christian?
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« Reply #52 on: December 14, 2008, 05:00:08 PM »

Quote
in the Coptic Orthodox Church one must marry an Orthodox Christian

What happens if a Coptic Orthodox Christians marries a person who is not an Orthodox Christian?



Excommunication.
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« Reply #53 on: December 14, 2008, 06:26:11 PM »

Didymus, thanks for your great post. If only all Orthodox Christians did as your church does.
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« Reply #54 on: December 14, 2008, 09:16:53 PM »

Becoming a monk is out of the question for me now.  I don't see myself as a monk.  So I will have to get married.  In my previous religion, I was allowed to marry outside my religion, but I always said I would prefer to marry somebody within my religion, which I why I am single.  So 5 years and not married.  Now I am about embark upon the Orthodox path. And I ask myself, if i am forced to marry an Orthodox, I don't think I will ever get married.  So I am trying to figure out my options.

Lord Have Mercy
There are plenty of beautiful and wonderful Orthodox women out there. Just take a trip to Russia, Greece, or Eastern Europe.  So I am not buying the argument that it is not possible to find a wonderful and decent Orthodox woman for marriage. Having said that, I would add that there have been successful mixed marriages between Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox. Different arrangements have been made depending on the circumstances and wishes of the parties involved. I know of one case, where the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox were OK with going to an Eastern Catholic Church. However, I realise that this is problematical from the Eastern Orthodox perspective. 
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